faith being of things that are not seene You haue graunted many absurdities this daye while you labour to defende that the Church on earth is alwayes visible And now the conclusion is worst of al that the visible Church for which you are so earnest is proued to be no article of faith Campion Why may not a man see yet beleeue Peter sawe him whom he beleeued saying thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God c. Fulke That which hee sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge but that which he confessed Christ to be the sonne of God was of faith and not of sense For flesh and blood reuealed it not vnto him but God from heauen That which Peter sawe of Christ with his bodily eyes was seene of many vnbeleeuing Iewes and of Iudas the traytor but his confession which came of faith he had not by bodily sight but by diuine reuelation It is not of faith to see men which are the members of the Church but to see them as they are members of the Church that is of faith therfore that which is seene of the Church is not of faith Camp Why you said the Church might be seene by experimentall faith as Peter sawe Christ and beleeued Fulke When said I so Campion Euen now when you spake of Peter Fulk I neuer thought it much lesse did I speake it It is needfull there should be writing els I see you would outface the matter I said the cleane contrarie That which Peter sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge and not faith that which he beleeued and confessed he sawe not Euen so I say that which we beleeue and confesse in our Creede of the Catholike Church wee neither do see neither can we see Campion I can see the whole world though I cannot see it all at once so I can see the Catholike Church in her parts although I cannot see it all at once or in one place Fulke Whatsoeuer you can see at seuerall times and in seuerall places of the Catholike Church is no article of faith For that which we beleeue of the Catholike Church is not seene at any time or in any place Campion That is true Fulke Ergo the whole Catholike Church and euery part thereof as it is of faith is not visible Here Campion of himselfe brake vp Campion Shall we meete againe It were to be considered of what question we shall talke Here question being made what point they should deale vpon and being asked whether he would defend the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ he denied to medle therein as being daungerous vnles leaue might be obtained of her Maiesties most honourable Counsail Then being demanded whether he woulde deale with that question in the after noone Whether the Church might erre he consented the company present agreeing therunto And so the houre was appointed at two of the clocke after dinner the Replyers hauing no longer time to prouide their arguments In the after noone ⧠The Question whether the visible Church may erre FIrst because promise was made in the forenoone that those places which were omitted should bee shewed D. Goade brought forth his place out of Chrysostome vpon Math. 5. Rursus eos per ista ad bene viuendum ac diligetiam cohortatur ostendens vt studeant esse soliciti quasiante omniū oculos constituti in medio orbis terrarum theatro Nolite inquit aspicere quia in isto nunc residemus loco in exigua sumus parte certaminis Sic enim eritis manifesti cunctis quemadmodum ciuitas in montis vertice collocata vel sicut lucerna in domo super candelabrū relucens Againe by these things he exhorteth them by diligence of well liuing that they might stande to be carefull as they that are set before all mens eyes and in the middest of the Theatre of the whole world Do not you regarde saith he that we remaine nowe in this place and are but in a small part of our battle for you shal be so manifest to all men as a citie placed vpon the top of a hill or as a candle shining in a house vpon a candlestick c. Here you see by the iudgement of Chrysostome expounding the place that it onely respecteth the Apostles which you denied to day For he exhorteth them to liue well as those that are set in the sight and eyes of all and therefore must be carefull howe they beare them selues vpon that open stage of the whole worlde being as a citie vpon an hill Campion The place is nothing against me for it pertaineth to the whole Church Doth Chrysostome cōtrarie any thing spoken by me doeth not their function their faith and religion their place shew that this is not spoken onely to them Goade These are but wordes It is plaine hee noteth their doctrine by the salte and their conuersation by the light Campion He speaketh not any thing contrarie to that which I haue said Goade Yes you say the place meaneth the whole Church to proue the visibilitie thereof as a citie set vpon an hill can not bee hidde Whereas Chrysostome interpreteth it of the Ministerie onely as is manifest by the word Salt the whole drift of the place Campion Of all other first it belongeth to the Prelates then to their flockes as I haue shewed you by the example of a Master of a familie Goade It belongeth in deede to the flocke also to liue well but this place is not directed vnto them It is absurde against the whole scope of the place to make a general conclusion from a particular from the Apostles to the whole Church Campion The Apostles were faithfull they include the whole Church as they were Christians and not Apostles Goade Why then that which was spoken to the Apostles was likewise spoken to the Church But it was said to the Apostles Drinke you all of this ergo to the whole Church Campion That was personall and in respect of their functiō he spake onely in respect of those that were present but there was none present but the Apostles like that which was saide to the Apostles Go ye and preach to all nations baptizing c. doeth he therefore commande the people also to preache and minister the Sacraments Goade The rase is farre vnlike The receauing of the Sacramentes belong to all Christians they must all receaue And though preaching the word and ministring in respect of the funetion be onely appropriate to the Apostles and Ministers yet the word and Sacraments are commō to al Christians So by manifest difference it appeareth that the commādement Go preach is personall belonging to one calling and the commandement Drinke ye all of this is generall to all the faithfull Campion There is no place in the institution that cōmandes the common people to drinke or not to drinke Goade The Apostle the best interpreter of Christes institution applieth it to the whole Church 1. Cor. 11. verse 23. That
which I receaued of the Lord c. And by the same reason you may say as was said before there is no commandement to receaue the Communion Campion There is no coÌ„mandement in that institutioÌ„ that the lay people should receaue the Communion Fulke That is a shamefull absurditie But nowe seeing the place is shewed let vs come to the question agreed vpon Whether the Church militant 〈◊〉 erre That it may 〈◊〉 I proue thus Whatsoeuer error is incident to euery member is incident to the whole But it is incident to euery member to erre Ergo to the whole Campion I deny both the Maiorand Minor Fulke Why the Maior is from a place in Logique that which is incident to euery part must needes be incident to the whole as euery part of a mans body is subiect to corruption therefore the whole body is subiect to corruption Campion There is no such place in Logique Euery man may erre but not the whole gathered together Your example is not like for the whole hath a promise and so hath not euery particular man Fulke The whole hath no promise that it shall not erre more theu euery particular member for euery member of Christ hath the spirit of Christ which is the spirit of truthe and therefore the same promise that the whole hath Campion Why then there should be no heretikes Fulke Yes heretikes may be within the Church but not of the Church Si ex nobis essent permansissent nobiscum saith Saint Iohn If they had bene of vs they had abidden with vs. Camp They were of vs in apparance in outward shewe Fulke I denie that they were of vs though in outward profession they seemed to bee of vs for in deede they were neuer of vs. Iohn 3. They went out from vs but they were neuer of vs. And he addeth the reason For if they had bene of vs they had remained with vs. They were within the Church but they were neuer of the Church Campion Christ saith of them that fall away in persecution that they beleeued the Gospel therfore before persecution they were of vs but they departed from vs c. they were of vs according to faith though they were not according to election Fulke Christ speaketh not there of true iustifying faith nor of the elect but of those that beleeued for a time For if they had bene of vs they would haue remained still with vs but they were not of vs neither according to iustifying faith nor according to election Camp The meaning of Iohn is they were not of vs according to the election of God yet they were of the militant Church which conteineth both good and euill Fulke It is true that in the visible Church be conteined both good and euill but the elect onely are of the Church Campion Why what say you by Dauid when he coÌ„mitted adulterie was he elect and the childe of God Fulke I say he did wickedly but yet he was and remained elect and the childe of God Campion This is strange But I say when he coÌ„mitted adulterie he was the childe of the deuill for it is plaine He that committeth sinne is the seruant of sinne But Dauid committed sinne Ergo he was the seruant of sinne and the childe of the deuill Goade The meaning of the place is that he that giueth him selfe ouer to sinne is the seruant of sinne to be led wholy by it in whom sinne reigneth But no particular sinne in the elect doeth make the children of God to become the children of the Deuil neither doth separate them from the hope of saluation Fulke He that is once a true member of Christ can neuer become a member of the Deuill Campion Then once good and neuer euill Fulke That followeth not Hee may fall into euill but neuer finally Goade The place is to be vnderstodde of him that falleth of malice and not of him that falleth by infirmitie Campion He that falleth into adulterie falleth malitiously for he may resist if he will For euery member of the Church hath power to withstand sinne if he will Fulke Nowe we shall haue free will Campion I meane not of him selfe but by grace For when God hath giuen him grace he may if he will resiste Answere me this place He is the seruant of sinne that committeth sinne Fulke You were answered before Campion Why then you holde that a Catholike falling into adulterie is still the childe of God I graunt that for euery offeÌ„ce God doth not cast out his sonnes For in a great house In magna domo there be many sonnes which though they be disobedieÌ„t they cease not to be sonnes till they be cast out c. but when they are cast out they are no more the sonnes of God Fulk God casteth out none of his siâ—…es For if they be sonnes they are also heyres They are the Apostles wordes Camp I say they are sonnes for the tune which are cast out Eijcit in exteriores tenebras He casteth them out into vtter darknes He that had not the nuptial garment maketh this claime to be the sonne of God and sitteth down amongst Gods children but he is cast out into vtter darkenes Fulk But he was neuer any sonne but an hypocrite therfore no maruaile if he were cast out S. Paul saith that a sonne is an heire Camp Why are not all that are baptiâ—… the sonnes of God Fulk No for they haue not all the spirit of adoption Camp Why then what iudge you of infants that die without Baptisme or immediatly after they are baptized are they not the children of God Fulke I take not vpon me to iudge But if they bee not Gods elect baptisme cannot make them his children Camp Then Christ commanded baptisme in vaine if it saue not those that are baptized Fulke That is not so for there is a necessary vse of baptizing though the holy Ghost be not giuen to euery one that receiueth baptisme I baptize with water saith Iohn Baptistâ—… but Christ baptizeth with the holy Ghost Camp I wil proue that infants are without siâ—… therefore must needes be saued For if they haue sinne they must either haue original sinne or actual sinne but being baptized they haue neither of both for originall sinne is taken away by baptisme as for actual sinne they neuer committed any ergo they are without sinne Fulke Originall sinne is not taken away from any in this life but it is not imputed to the elect M. Lieutenant M. Doctours the question that was appointed before dinner was Whether the visible Church may erre Goade M. Lieutenant he continually draweth vs into newe questions to auoid the matter in controuersie Shall I enter that question I will recite some Churches in the Apostles times aske your iudgemeÌ„t of theÌ„ then go to mine argumeÌ„t The Churches of Corinth of Galatia what say you to theÌ„ The Church of Corinth though they had a promise as you said did
Canons of euery Councill but this was that consent the agreement of the whole Council the whole Council answered Etiam domine Campion Shew me the booke Fulke If I do not shew it then let me beare the blame Camp Well admit it be so first they might meane that Angels and spirits had a certaine definite substance of their being which they called their bodies Fulke Then belike they knewe not howe to speake but I am sure they knew what difference there was betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance body if they had so meant they waÌ„ted not words to haue expressed their meaning Camp They might thinke they had certaine subtil bodies according to the formes that they did take as Augustine and some other haue helde besides this was not an error of faith Fulke Ergo it was of maners belike Camp It was a smal error neither of faith nor maners Fulke I proue it was an error of faith We beleeue that God is the creator of all things visible and inuisible but if Angels and spirites be visible then are there no inuisible things whereof wee beleeue God to be the creator Besides they do not onely make theÌ„ visible but circumscriptible also and therefore they do meane bodies and not substances generally for onely bodies are circumscriptible Camp They meane not such bodies as we haue but such as they tooke how could they els be painted Fulke But they say they were visible and circumscriptible Campion Because they doe Assumere corpora not because they had bodies in deede but seemed to haue Fulke But the Councill saith they haue proper bodies of their own are circuÌ„scriptible haue bene seen in their proper bodies Campion It was no decree Fulke Sacra Synodus dixit Etiam domine All the holy Synode confirmed it saying Euen so my Lord. Campion Many a saint in heauen haue thought as hard matters as this and they are saued Fulke I deny not that but yet this was an error of faith neither doth euery error in faith shut out a man from saluation Camp In deede so you say in your booke against Bristow that the Church may erre in matters of fayth for you say that Inuocation of Saints and prayer for the dead were errors in faith and yet that they which vsed them are saued I wonder therefore why you crie out so lowde in your pulpits against Inuocation of saintes and haue nothing more in your mouthes theÌ„ Blasphemie Blasphemie when the Catholikes mainteine it Fulke I say in deede that Inuocation of saints as it was held of some of the later sort of auncient fathers was an error in faith but yet not such as could exclude them from being members of the true Church and yet the same error as it is vsed of Papistes is blasphemous These fathers helde the foundation Faith and therefore that error was not damnable in them Campion In deede you say that if a man haue faith what errors soeuer he haue besides it is well enough so long as hee holde your faith it makes no matter what errors soeuer â—…e hold with it hee cannot perish Fulke You slander my booke I neuer writte so Camp Let me see your booke and I will shew it you Fulk In what booke will you shewe it Campion In your booke against Bristowe Fulke You shal see the booke at our next meeting and if you be able to shewe any such wordes or matter either I will lose my head I may say and haue sayd that the Fathers had their errors among which some allowed inuocation of Saintes and yet holding the foundation they may be saued Camp Uery well that is all one why should you then make so much a doe against inuocation of Saintes Why doe you not say in your pulpits that it is an indifferent matter Fulke Because as you holde it it is in deede a blasphemous errour but as the Fathers helde it it was no blasphemous error but yet an errour and no indifferent thing Goade Are you ignorant that they which hold the foundation though they erre in some particular pointes of doctrine they may be saued Shall euery particular point of errour in doctrine depriue a man of saluation holding soundly the foundation Christ Campion Well he saieth it in his booke c. If a man haue onely faith it maketh no matter what errours he hold beside Fulke You shamefully slaunder my booke and I knowe you can shewe no such thing out of my booke Nowe you haue graunted so many absurdities ye know not how to make vp the matter but by slaundering my booke Campion I haue graunted no absurdities but I will defend them bring me the booke and I will shew it you And thereupon I challenge you you and I at Cambridge M. Doctor to trie it Fulke Uery well Sir you shew your selfe according to your publike challenge more bold then wise you that haue challenged all the Realme no maruaile if you challenge me Campion I wil stand to my challenge and here I challenge you to dispute with you at Cambridge if you dare Fulke It lieth not in mee to remoue you to Cambridge I came hither vpon commandement at this time otherwise you are not the man whom I would chuse take for to be mine aduersarie if you were at libertie There are twentie of your side whom I would rather take if I should chuse mine equal which make no such challenge Non tibiplus cordis sed minus oris inest Goade Your Church denyeth an article of faith ergo it erreth c. Campion God forbid it doeth not Goade You deny the bodily ascention of Christ into heauen ergo an article of faith Campion We do not deny it Goade You deny that he is bodily in heauen for you say that he is bodily in earth but he can not bee both in heauen and earth at once if he haue a true bodie Campion I deny your argument For he is and may bee in many places at once touching his body Goade It is contrary 〈◊〉 the nature of a true bodie to bee in many places at once For a true naturall body must haue the properties of a very naturall and true body and so you make Christ to haue a phantasticall and not a true body You say at the same time he is in earth and in heauen Saint Augustine confuting the likâ—… errour of those that denied that Christ had a true body saith Cauendum no ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus We must beware that we doe not so maintaine the diuinitie of Christ that we take away the true nature of a body Iesus Christus vbique est per id quod Deus est in coelo autem per id quod homo c. Iesus Christ is present euery where according to his Godhead but he is in heauen according to his manhoode And in Ioh. tractatu 3. Corpus Domini in quo resurrexit vno
purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth wâ—…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpoÌ„ earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer yâ— defence of your slauÌ„der of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militaÌ„t Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore
saith that Christianitie which is the Church is to bee knowen only by the Scriptures He hath these wordes Tantummodoper scripturas nullo modo nulla probatio c. Wherfore thus I frame my argumēt out of Chrysostoms place The Church is to be knowen onely by the Scriptures But visibilitie is not the Scriptures Ergo the Church is not to be knowē by visibilitie Or thus The only note to know the Church by is y◠holy Scriptures Uisibilitie is not the holy Scripturs Ergo visibilitie is not a note to know the Church by Campion Yea out of the Scriptures the Church may bee knowen for the Scriptures appoint visiblenes to bee a marke of the Church But I deny the Minor Fulke Do you say then that visibilitie is the Scripture Campion I say visibilitie is conteined in the Scriptures Fulke My Minor is that visiblenes is not the Scripture so vpon my Maior which is Chrysostomes authoritie I conclude that visiblenes is no marke of the Church Campion I know Chrysostomes place hee denieth not visiblenes to be a note You may go to an other argument Fulke You would not heare Chrysostome by your will but he shal be read by your leaue Tunc cum videritis abominationem desolationis stantem in loco sancto id est cum videritis haeresim impiam quae est exercitus Antichristi stantem in locis sanctis Ecclesiae in illo tempore qui in Iudea sunt fugiant ad montes id est qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas Sicut enim verus Iudeus est Christianus dicente Apostolo non qui in manifesto sed qui in occulto sic vera Iudea Christianitas est cuius nomen intelligitur confessio Montes autem sunt scripturae Apostolorum aut Prophetarum de quibus dictum est Illuminas tu mirabiliter a montibus aeternis Et iterum de ecclesia dicit fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis Et quare iubet in hoc tempore omnes Christianos conferre se ad Scripturas Quia in tempore hoc ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas Ecclesias nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis neque effugium potest esse Christianorum aliud volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem nisi Scripturae diuinae Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi quae gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per scripturas c. Then when you shall see the abomination of desolation standing in that holy place that is when you shall see an vngodly heresie which is the army of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church in that time they which are in Iury let them flie to the mountaines that is they that are in Christianitie let them get them to the Scriptures For as the true Iewe is a Christian as the Apostle sayeth not which is in open sight but which is in secrete so true Iurie whose name is vnderstood to be confession is Christianitie And the mountaines are the Scripture of the Apostles and Prophets of whome it is sayde Thou doest giue light marueilously from the euerlasting moūtaines And againe he sayeth of the Church Her foundations are in the holy hilles And wherefore doeth he commaunde all Christians in this time to get them to the Scriptures Because in this time since heresie hath obtained those Churches there can be no tryall of true Christianitie neyther can there be any other escape of Christians which woulde knowe the trueth of the faith but the Diuine Scriptures For before times it was shewed by many wayes which was the Church of Christ and which was gentilitie but nowe to them that woulde knowe which is the true Church of Christ it is knowen by none other meanes but onely by the Scriptures This is playne for the Antecedent And these particles are playne Nullo modo cognoscitur It is knowen by no meanes there is no other proofe but tantummodò per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures Campion Master Doctor you knowe the order I deny the consequent you proue the Antecedent Fulke You denied the Antecedent and therefore it was necessary for me to proue it But this place also doeth prooue the Consequence of mine argument which you denyed Let me see howe you can answere to the place All other markes in time of heresie or schisme by Chrysostomes iudgement are excluded but onely the Scriptures Therefore visibilitie also is excluded from being a marke of the Church Campion When the Church was first planted there was miracles by which it might be knowen but nowe they ceasing it is to be knowen sayeth Chrysostome onely by the Scriptures meaning that it is not to be knowen by miracles c. Fulke This answere is a senseles cauil which is easily auoyded For there is an Antithesis or opposition in Chrysostomes wordes howe it was knowen before that is multis modis by many wayes and howe it may be knowen nowe by one onely way tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures For nowe that Antichrist is reuealed he excludeth all wayes except one sayeth it must be knowen onely by the Scriptures Therefore he excludeth visiblenesse as well as miracles from being an inseparable note of the Church Campion It excludeth miracles c. Fulke Well then your answere is that nullo modo nulla probatio tantummodò excludeth nothing but miracles Campion Yea and that appeareth by the wordes Ante tempus Antichristi For whereunto els should nunc and ante be referred except it had meant by ante before the primatiue Church and nunc nowe by the present and instant time Fulke You do but talke you cannot so put away Nulla probatio No proofe Nullo modo by no meane it is knowen but tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures c. He speaketh of all times since heresies haue occupyed the Churches If you wil answere no otherwise I will rest vpon iudgement Campion I haue answered but I would to God I had a notarie well I commit all to God But I pray you note that I say that visibilitie is included in the Scriptures Goade I will examine this cause by a manifest place one of the strongest that is alleadged by those of your side to prooue the visibilitie of the Church namely that out of the 5. of Matthewe A citie that is buylded on a hill can not be hid whereupon they inferre therefore the Church must needes be alwayes visible Campion If it please you though it be commonly alleaged yet it is allegoricall There are many stronger places and you were best take a more pregnant place c. Goade It is alleadged by Hosius and others on your side to this purpose and therefore I chose it notwithstanding if you shunne it and would haue me to omitte it I will Campion No I say there are apter and stronger places neuerthelesse I shunne it not
can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel theÌ„ if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not coÌ„tinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be coÌ„tinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution wheÌ„ the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driueÌ„ the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersusâ—…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen
erre about the matter of resurrectiō the church of Galatia about the matter of iustificatiō Camp The Apostle though he wrote to all yet he meaneth but some fewe of them And what are these to the whole Church being but particular churches the militant Church of Christ cōprehendeth y◠who le nūber of churches on earth As for y◠error of y◠church of Galatia it was no otherwise reproued then as preachers are wōt to reproue who are wōt to rebuke al for some y◠are faulty Goade In deede you say some thing concerning that of Corinth I grant that the error was not so generall For he said Quidā inter vos c. Certaine amongst you c. But for the Galathians it was otherwise For the whole Church was iustly reproued according to that O you foolish Galathians who hath be witched you that you should not beleeue the truthe These wholy fell were not particular mēbers but whole Churches planted by the Apostles them selues replenished with speciall giftes of the holy Ghost And if these faded in the Apostles time in so great a matter what priuilege haue any other churches since y◠they shuld not likewise erre so cōsequētly what priuilege hath y◠militāt church Camp Make your argument then we shal see what ye will conclude Goade So then I make mine argument Whatsoeuer congregation doth erre in matters of faith is not the true Church But the Church of Rome erreth in matters of faith Ergo the Church of Rome is not the true Church Campion This is from the question M. Lieutenant might doe well to put vs in minde of the question Goad I remember the question well I bring an instance according to your meaning because you in saying that the Church cānot erre meane y◠the church of Rome cānot erre this priuilege agreeth not to y◠church of Rome which you say is y◠true Church Campion I deny your Minor The Church of Rome hath not erred You suppose the Church of Rome to be y◠true Church and I beleeue it Goad In deed I only suppose it for disputatiōs sake beleue it not but y◠errors are infinit I should weary my self al y◠company to rehearse many I omit inferior errors of lesse waight and moment and come to those that shake the foundation of faith Campion We shall then runne into all controuersies bring some proper errour that I my selfe shall coufesse to bee an errour that the church of Rome holdeth Goade Why a general must be taken away by particulars Campion That is true Goade Then I reason thus It hath erred and doeth erre in the foundation touching saluation by Christ Ergo it is subiect to errour Campion It doeth not God forbid it should But if you will properly proue it hath erred shewe me that some generall Councill hath erred Goade Well I will followe you in this poynt The Councill of Trent hath erred in m◅ny poyntes of doctrine and namely in the matter of iustification ergo a generall Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent c. Goade It ascribech whole or part of righteousnesse to be inherent in our selues But this is an errour Ergo it errcth in iustification c. The very words I do not remember but this is the effect of the doctrine that Inhaerens iustitia est pars iustificationis That inherent righteousnesse is a part of iustification Campion The Councill hath no such wordes or if it haue it doth not ascribe any thing to righteousnes cleauing in our selues as of our selues but as giuen of God In deede it is in vs but as y◠gift of God As there are vertues faith hope charity which must be in vs seruing to this righteousnes which yet are not of vs. Goade Whatsoeuer is in vs that must iustifie vs before the iust iudgement of God must be perfect But our righteousnes is not perfect Ergo our righteousnes cānot either in whole or part iustifie vs. Campion I answere your Maior it must be perfect according to that perfection that God requireth of vs in this life Goade This is most corrupt For God wil haue a perfect vndefiled righteousnes such as he hath set downe in his own law Qui fecerit c. He that shall do them shal liue in them Gal. 3. Againe Maledictus est omnis qui non permanserit in omnibus quae scripta sunt in libro Legis vt faciat ea c. Cursed is euery one that abideth not in all thinges that are written in that booke to doe them c. Campion I say God doeth not exact such a perfect righteousnesse according to the lawe for we are deliuered from that by Christ c. Goade Then we must rest on Christ alone but if we will be iustified by any part of righteousnes in our selues it must be perfect For Gods iustice alloweth no vnperfect righteousnes Doe you thinke you can fulfill this law c. Campion Yea that I can Goade Can you loue God aboue all things your neighbour as your selfe Can you loue him with all your heart with all your soule and with all your strength Campion I can For when I preferre God before all things and loue him chiefely I loue him aboue all Fulke Note that Blasphemous absurditie Goade If a man may fulfill the lawe to iustification then Christ dyed in vayne Campion What now shall we haue hissing c. Goade Sure it is worthy of hissing and of blusshing too if you had any feare of God before your eyes or conscience I praye God make you to vnderstand the absurdities that you holde that you may be ashamed of them and renounce them Campion Why is euery motion to sinne deadly sinne c. Goade You are like the Pharisee that thought the keeping of the law to consist in the outward letter What say you is not cōcupiscence the motions of the flesh against y◠law of God sinne Campion No that they are not for if I being tempted refraine my selfe and when I haue a motion to euill bridle my selfe from it as if I see my neyghbours goods and haue a motion to steale and do not do I not herein loue my neighbour as my selfe If a man bee in the Queenes Iewell house where he may take some precious thing and bridle himselfe of it and abstaine shall this man be condemned What wil you cōdemne a man for euery litle tentation It is a good thing to be tempted c. Iam. 1. Blessed is he that endureth temptation Goade Ye abuse the place For it is vnderstode of afflictions And as for concupiscence it is the transgression of the law Thou shalt not lust ergo it is sinne But I will leaue this as impertinent to the purpose Consider that notable place in the ende of the fift chapter to the Corinth Epist. 2. Him that knewe no sinne he made sinne for vs that we might be made the righteousnesse of God in him not in
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
vicem reddentes sola fide iustificati sunt dono Dei That is they were iustified freely by his grace They were iustified freely for working nothing neither making any recompence they were iustified thorow only faith by the gift of God Thus farre Saint Ambrose who doeth very often in his expositions vpon that Epistle to the Romanes repeate That we are iustified by faith alone And Saint Basil most worthely named the great sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is perfect and sounde reioysing in God is this when a man doth not boast of his own righteousnes but knoweth that he wanteth him selfe true righteousnes and that he is iustified by only faith in Christ. And Saint Paul doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse Thus farre Saint Basill And Gregorie Nazianzen saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confesse Iesus Christ and beleeue that he is risen from death and thou shalt be saued For to beleeue onely is righteousnesse Thus saith Nazianzen surnamed Theologus the deuine for his excellent learning in the scriptures And the same doctrine of iustification by faith alone do many other ancient godly and learned fathers and doctors set downe most plainely in their workes After that these sayings of these ancient doctors were read we said You see that this doctrine and the very words themselues which we doe vse we are iustified by faith onely or faith onely doeth iustifie are not any new inuention of ours but are set downe and pronounced by many ancient and holy fathers of the Church aboue a thousande yeere sithen and more and that being grounded euen vpon the same places of the holy scriptures that we do alleage for our iustification by faith onely Master Campion said but those Doctors and you doe not agree in sense as I said before It is well said we that you cannot denie but that they doe agree with vs in wordes and that they doe gather these wordes euen of the same scriptures which we alleaged for onely faith to iustifie and that therefore these wordes we are iustified freely thorow grace by faith faith without the law without the works of the lawe doeth iustifie which are the wordes of Saint Paul are all one with these words faith only doeth iustifie which was before by you denyed Master Campion said but the trueth of the matter resteth in the sense and meaning of the Doctors What sense is it that you doe speake of said we Master Campion answered We do graunt that it is true that onely Faith doeth iustifie in this sense that is that when we be first brought into the state of grace no good works do go before primam gratiam the first grace or iustification but that our first iustificatiō is by faith only without any works going before but the workes that followe the first grace and iustification said Master Campion doe both iustifie and merite also We alleaged Saint Augustines saying Opera non praecedunt iustificandum sed sequuntur iustificatum Workes doe not preceede a man to be iustified but doe follow him being iustified That is true said Master Campion as I said before of the first grace and iustification but good workes doe goe before the second iustification It is but a small matter said we to graunt y◠no good works doe go before the first grace or iustification when before the same grace there can be no good workes at all And concerning the seconde iustification we replyed to that that Saint Paul speaking of that iustification and alleaging the example and saying of king Dauid therefore sayeth expressely that to a man that doeth beleeue in him that doeth iustifie the wicked his faith is reputed to righteousnes according to the purpose of the grace of God Euen as Dauid setteth downe the blessednesse of a man vnto whome God reputeth righteousnesse without workes Blessed are they whose wickednesse is pardoned and whose sinnes are couered c. Thus sayeth Saint Paul thus sayeth the King and Prophet Dauid teaching plainely that our iustification is by Gods pardoning of our euill workes and not by the merites of our good workes for he saith expressely that iustice is without our workes And S. Paul and King Dauid were in the state of grace when they did thus write and yet doe shew that their iustification then as well as before was without workes Master Campion said a man being in the state of grace may write of the first grace and iustification why not and so did they in that place Yea quoth we but if he be set downe for an example himselfe after that he hath obteined the first grace and continued therein and yet sayth that God reputeth his iustification without any his workes though he haue done many good as Abraham first and then Dauid are here set out for example and as Saint Basill as was before alleaged setteth out Saint Paul himselfe for an example who doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse it is cuident that that iustification or righteousnesse which is before God is without any workes of ours at all and that all iustification of all persons and in all times is by the grace of God through faith onely without any merite of our workes Then they alleaged Saint Iames wordes Faith without charitie is dead making thereby charitie the soule and life of faith Hereunto we made answere that faith without charitie was in deede dead and altogether vaine and vnprofitable But Saint Iames meaning herein was not to make charitie the principall parte or the forme of faith but onely to shewe that by charitie faith is approued and declared to be a true and a liuely faith which we doe most willingly graunt And therewith we alleaged the saying of Thomas de Aquin. being a scholeman of their owne side who saith Deus iustificat effectiuè fides iustificat apprehensiuè opera iustificant declaratiuè That is God doeth iustifie effectually faith doeth iustifie apprehendingly workes doe iustifie declaringly Master Sherwin said it was Fides iustificat instrumentaliter Faith iustifieth instrumentally That worde quoth we doeth make no alteration in sense at all And here you may see howe Saint Paul teaching that we are iustified by faith without workes before God and Saint Iames teaching that we are iustified by workes that is doe declare our selues by our workes vnto men to be iustified do agree Master Campion said that he could yeelde and subscribe vnto that saying of Saint Thomas And we saide that we woulde doe the like for that it is the very true doctrine that we teache howbeit he held his penne from subscribing Then Master Sherwin alleaged these wordes of Saint Paul If I had all faith and haue not charitie I am nothing And he did very vehemently vrge the wordes all faith all faith without charitie is nothing worth Here saith one of the Pamphleters silence was the answere but howe truely let him selfe see for
Goade That is not to the point though some remained yet they were hidde All being persecuted and put to death that coulde be knowen or founde Campion The time of these persecutions was euen like to our times For then the Christians were exiled put to death driuē into corners as the Catholikes are nowe and yet there remained inough c. and they were knowen Goade Surely you make euill and vntrue conparisons you haue no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutiōs in the time of our gratious Queene and doe not wel to compare her highnes peaceable and milde gouernement with those tyrannical persecutions ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queene Maries time to those examples I had thought to haue founde more modestie in you Campion Well let the comparison bee of Q. Maries time then Protestants were put to death yet there remained many Goade The question is not whether they remained but whether they were seen But you said of those Emperours times that there remained many and they were not vnknowen They were vnknowen both to the faithles and faithfull ergo they were altogether vnknowen Campion I deny both partes of the antecedent Goade Then I must proue both distinctly and first touching the faithles The faithles could not knowe the Church therefore they did not knowe it Camp They knew it not by faith but by sense they knewe it Goade Iohn 3. The worlde knoweth not vs because it knoweth not him Campion I tolde you they did not knowe him as they ought to know him to saluation They knewe but not fruitfully and effectually As I knowe you are a Protestant but yet beleeue not your religion And a man that saith Masse is knowen and yet you doe not beleeue in it Goade But though the persons were knowen yet they knewe them not to be of the Church I will come to the other part of the antecedent As is the whole so are the partes But God onely knoweth the whole Ergo he onely knoweth the partes For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone By reason of many hypocrites men are not able to iudge who are truely faithfull There are many wolues within and many sheepe without Deus nouit qui sunt sui 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone Campion I knowe not who is elect but I knowe who is a Catholike I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no c. Goade Onely the elect are of the Church whereof Christ is the head Camp I say that both good euill are of the visible Church Goade Christ hath no dead members of his body therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church I will helpe you with a distinction They may be in the Church but not of the Church Campion The distinction is Caluins and therefore I refuse it But you answere your selfe for euill men may be viua membra Christi the liuely members of Christ in respect of faith but not in respect of charitie A man may be a member of the body of Christ as it is here in earth being a wicked man but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heauen Your own argument doth confound you It is impossible to knowe the elect therefore it is impossible the Church should be inuisible Goade It is your parte to answere not to oppose you vse many words graunt absurdities Your argumēt doth not folow Campion You cannot know any particular man to be elect you cannot pronounce it of your selfe therefore you cannot measure the Church by election then it remaineth the Church must be visible because it must be knowen Goade To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing to be in the visible Church is another Campion This was Wickliefes error that onely the electe were true members of the Church but as I haue sayde no man can knowe who is elect and therefore you teache that no man can knowe a member of the Church nor no man can knowe that he shall be saued Goade Particular electiō is not so vnknowen as you would make it for a man may haue knowledge of his owne election by vndoubted testimonies and see the signes of election in others Fulke You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church whereupon I reason thus If it be an inseparable qualitie it is an inseparable note But it is not an inseparable note Ergo not an inseparable qualitie Campion I deny both the Maior and the Minor both may be doubted of Fulke I will proue both Campion Giue me leaue A note is more then a qualitie The qualitie is to goe right to goe the neerest and gainest way the safest way A note is a marke that may be remoued that teacheth to turne on the right hand or on the lefte by this crosse or by that windmill or marke c. Fulke I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie and you needed not so many wordes to haue shewed that but I speake of an inseparable note and an inseparable qualitie That qualitie which is inseparable being also a note must needes be an inseparable note Also of that your selfe haue saide that it is an essentiall qualitie I will proue the Maior Whatsoeuer marke is of the essence or nature is inseparable The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church Therefore it is an inseparable marke Campion It is an inseparable qualitie but not an inseparable note but after a sorte for a qualitie must euermore stande but a marke may be taken away Fulke The question is whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away Campion I say it may be in a sense Fulke I know not what sense you speake of but this is euident by your owne confession the visiblenes of the Church is a marke and it is of the nature Ergo it is inseparable so my Maior is plaine Campion Proue your Minor Fulke There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church ergo it is not an inseparable note Campion I deny the Antecedent Fulke There was a time when the Church was only knowē by the Scriptures therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church Campion I deny both the Antecedent and the consequent Fulke I will proue both and first the Antecedent Cam. Nay proue the consequent first then the antecedēt Fulke Why the other is first both in order and nature Campion Nay Whensoeuer the consequent is denied you must straight proue the argument Fulke That is if the consequent onely be denied but seeing you deny both I will first proue that which in nature order is first and afterward I will proue the other if it neede It is but a sory shift of you to decline from the point of the question Chrysostome
Councils which are gathered of all the Christian world and that euen the general Councils themselues are often corrected the former by the latter when by any tryall of thinges that is opened which was shut vp and that is knowen which was hidden without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe necke of arrogancie without any contention of malicious enuie with holy humilitie with Catholike peace with Christian charitie Here you haue a plaine place that only the Scripture cannot erre that all other writers may erre that all prouincial Councils may erre and last of all generall Councils themselues may be corrected the former by the latter therefore without question they may erre Campion I answered before you read that a general Councill may be declared and better explaned but not corrected Fulke It may be amended and therefore corrected There is no difference betweene amending and correcting Campion So farre forth it may be corrected as it may bee better explaned but not to set out thinges that are contrary For generall Councils are not one contrary to the other Fulke Saint Augustine sayeth The generall Council may be ignorant of some thing at the beginning that afterwardes by experience may be amended something may be close which afterwarde may be opened it may be hid to one Councill that may be knowen of another And the Antithesis in these wordes must needes stand that only the Scriptures cannot erre and therefore are not to be corrected As for Councils generall and prouinciall and Bishops writings of all sorts may be corrected and therefore they may erre Campion A generall Councill may erre in matter of fact as in condemning and absoluing some Bishops c. but it can not erre in matters of doctrine Fulke Doe you know whereof Augustine speaketh in this place c. Campion Yea as well as you Fulke Why then declare it before this company Campion He speaketh of a matter of fact Fulke Nowe you shewe your selfe altogether ignorant of the matter for he speaketh of the Councill of Carthage that was helde in Cyprians time wherein was concluded an error of faith For they had decreed that such were to be rebaptized as had bene baptized of heretikes With which decree and Cyprians authoritie who was President of the Councill when Saint Augustine was pressed he answereth that onely the Scripture coulde not erre but all other both Bishops writings and Councils might erre and therefore might be reformed c. Campion He speaketh not of a matter of faith as appeareth by the worde experiment For there can bee no experiment in a matter of faith heresie cannot be amended Fulke These are vaine shiftes Men may finde by experience they haue erred Campion The worde amending sheweth that it was in maners Fulke To be corrected and amended is all one and may bee as well in faith as in maners and the argument whereof he entreateth and the Antithesis he maketh betweene the Scriptures and all other authorities sheweth plainely that hee meaneth of errour of faith But seeing you haue nothing else to answere I will leaue it to the consideration of them that bee wise and learned and so long as you bring no matter I will not answere your wordes Goade Seeing you stande vpon Councils I will proceede that way General Councils haue erred ergo c. Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade They are contrary one to another c. Campion I deny it Goade The Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice are contrary Campion They are not Goade They are contrary in the matter of Images namely the Councill of Constantinople condemning the setting vp of Images in the Church and the Councill of Nice afterwarde allowing Images Campion You can not shewe that they were contrary one to an other Goade It shal be shewed afterward I will come to another generall Council The Council of Constance hath erred in matter of faith ergo a general Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade The Councill of Constance erred in taking away the cuppe from the common people this was a matter of faith ergo that Council erred in matter of faith Campion Thus we shall runne into all questions and then we shal haue done this time twelue moneths This was no error in the Council for I say there is no commandement that the people should be partakers of the cuppe Goade By the same reason you may aswell exclude the people from the bread also but though you haue in this poynt denied the force of Christes institution yet the commaundement in the same is plaine Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this And Paul interpreteth it so 1. Cor. 11. deliuering aswell the cuppe as the breade to the whole Church euen as hee had receaued of the Lord. The Council of Constance decreeth against it ergo a manifest and foule errour in that Councill Campion Doeth Saint Paul make it a precept that the lay people should receiue the cuppe Goade Paul iudued with the spirit of God giueth a flat precept in the same chapter verse 28. Probet seipsum homo Let a mā try himselfe and so let him eate of that breade and drinke of that cuppe These are playne preceptes Let him eate Let him drinke and here is as great a commādement to the whole church for the one as for the other Campion The place is to be vnderstoode when he doeth receiue and vnder the obedience of the Church it may be done And this that you make so much a doe about I haue seene it done to many Catholikes my selfe but it is not so necessary that you should make such adoo about it Goade It is not left free but an expresse commaundement and therefore necessary It is the Imperatiue mode and therefore a commaundement I maruayle howe you can stande in this being so plaine Fulke Here are two thinges Probet Edat bibat Let him examine himselfe and let him eate and drinke and both be commaundementes First he must be prepared and then he must eate and not onely eate but he must drinke also For as the institution is of eating and drinking so is the commandement of the Apostle drawen from the institution And if there be no commandement then is no man bounde to receiue the Lordes supper Camp No it is a thing indifferent by the institutiō touching the common people sauing that only the authoritie of the Church hath layde it vpon vs here you may see the authoritie of the church in things not commanded Goade It is a commandement both in the institution and by the Apostle 1. Corinth 11. saying That which I receaued I deliuered grounding his commandement vpon the institution and therefore commanded in the institution Camp Yea he saith when he will or when he doeth receiue then let him examine him selfe Fulke These are your owne wordes there is no such worde here When he will and when he doeth he must proue him selfe and so he
must eate The wordes which the Apostle vseth here are both the imperatiue mode in the Greke text Let him examine him selfe and let him eate and drinke Campion I graunt there are two precepts but this is the summe and ende Vt dignè edat That he may eate worthely Fulke Here is the booke see it and reade it this is the originall giue him the booke it is a reasonable great printe Campion You are stil vrging me to reade Greeke what childish dealing is this can I not see the imperatiue mode aswell in the Latine as in the Greke shall this disaduantage the cause I haue I thanke God and you shall know it asmuch Greke as wil serue my turne and when there is occasion to vse it I will shewe it But is not the Latin toÌ„gue as good a toÌ„gue as the Greeke c. Fulke You were best confesse your ignorance We make not tongues the measure of the truthe but we bring the originall to preuent your cauillations and your finding faulte with translations But I will deale with you with an other argument The whole Church did thinke it necessarie for infantes to receaue Ergo the whole Church hath erred c. Campion Nowe we shall haue a question whether infantes may receaue so we shall runne into all questions Fulke Not so But I will proue that Innocentius Bishop of Rome and all the Church with him as S. Augustine confesseth held this error that it is necessary for infantes to receiue the communion which you your selfe holde to be an error seeing you affirme it is not of necessitie by Christes commandement that any lay men should receiue it You shal heare the wordes of Augustine and of Innocentius both as Augustine citeth them Why are you afraide of the place before you come at it let me reade it Saint Augustine citeth the wordes of Innocentius out of his Epistle to the Bishops of Numidia Lib. 2. ad Bonifacium contra duas epist. Pelag. cap. 4. Haec enim eius verba sunt Illud vero quod eos vestra fraternitas asserit praedicare paruulos aeternae vitae praemijs etiam sine baptismatis gratia posse donari perfatuum est Nisi enim manducauerint carnem filij hominis biberint sanguinem eius non habebunt vitam in semetipsis qui autem hanc eis sine regeneratione defendunt videntur mihi ipsum baptismum velle cassare For these are his wordes But where as your brotherhoode affirmeth them to preach that litle children may be rewarded with the gift of eternall life euen without the grace of Baptisme it is a very foolish thing For except they shall eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ and drinke his blood they shall haue no life in them selues But they which defende this vnto them without regeneration seeme to me that they wil make frustrate baptisme it selfe Upon which wordes of Innocentius Saint Augustine inferreth Ecce beatae memoriâ—… Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi sine participatione corporis sanguinis Christi vitam non habere paruulos dicit Behold the Pope Innocent of blessed memorie saith that litle children cannot haue life without the participation of the body and blood of Christ. In these wordes Saint Augustine sheweth the generall practise of the Church was that infantes should receaue because it was thought necessary vnto saluation Campion It was onely a practise it was no opinion of necessitie of saluation Fulke Saint Augustine writeth against the Pelagians that held that Baptisme was not necessarie for infantes and that infantes might be saued without Baptisme against whome he reasoneth thus Infantes cannot be saued without they receaue the communion but they cannot receiue the communion vnles they be first baptized ergo infantes cannot be saued vnlesse they be baptized And to proue that they cannot be saued except they receaue the communion he alleaged the decree or diffinitiue sentence of Innocentius Campion Saint Augustine sayth not that the whole churth thought it necessarie to saluation But when Innocetius commanded that infantes should communicate it was but a necessitie of the commandement the necessitie was not in the thing but to keepe the vnitie of the Church and so no error of faith but a lawful practize of the Church but shewe the decree Fulke You haue heard the wordes of Innocentius out of his synodicall Epistle and thus Saint Augustine citeth his decree Ecce beatae memoriae Innocentius papa sine baptismo Christi c. Lo Innocentius the Pope of blessed memorie c. Campion There is no such decree I will beleeue none of your notes He saith they be damned vnles they be baptized but he sayeth not they be damned except they receaue the communion Fulke He saieth both you shall see the booke seeing you will not credit my notes Goade Upon supposition as before I will suppose as you beleeue coÌ„cerning the Church of Rome The head as you hold him of that Church hath erred in matter of faith ergo the Church being the members are subiect to error Campion I denie your Antecedent Goade Saint Peter did erre in faith and that after the sending downe of the holy Ghost vpon him and the rest therefore the principall head of the Church as you accompt of Peter Campion He did not erre in faith I knowe the place Gal. 2. It was a matter of manners not of doctrine For it was but a litle dissimulation Goade It was matter of doctrine for it was somewhat concerning that where about the CouÌ„cill was gathered at Hierusalem touching Circumcision Campion Ye vtterly mistake it for it was about the obseruation of the Lawe by the Gentiles and not concerning Circumcision Goade I nowe well remember it was not directly about the question of Circumcision But it is certaine Peter was in that error that the Gospell pertained not at all to the Gentiles vntill hee was reformed by vision Act. 10 For then at leÌ„gth he said Nunc tandem comperio c. Now at length I finde c so hee was for a time in error But for the place Gal. 2. it is saide Non ambulauit recto pede ad veritatem euangelij Hee walked not with a right foote according to the truth of the Gospel c. Camp It was but a small matter of dissimulation in maners Goade The text saith Paul withstoode him to the face because he was blame worthy and iustly to be reproued therefore it was no small matter And Augustine against Hierome De Petro iure reprehenso Epist. 19. doth iustifie this open reproofe by S. Paul though Hierome laboured to lessen this faulte c. Campion And so do I. But this proueth not that it was any matter of faith Fulke It was against the truthe of the Gospell Truthe is contrary to error Ergo it was an error of faith Camp I haue saide the faulte was in maners for dissimulation When I sawe that he did not walke well or right c. as at
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
and brought vp in this realme in schooles places where good learning hath bene taught so that he might haue bene a good instrument in this common wealth and Gods Church but contrary to his bringing vp his friendes expectation hope that this Church might haue conceaued of him like an vnnaturall man to his countrey degenerated from an English man an Apostata in religion a fugitiue from this realme vnloyal to his Prince hath not onely fled to the man of Rome an aduersarie to Christ and his doctrine but hath gotten a courage from that Romaniste with certaine other his sectaries to come into this realme againe to vndermine the Gospell of Christ to seduce Gods people and withdrawe her Maiesties lawfull subiectes to disobedience and sedition and hath bene disguised in Ruffians apparel in diuers places of this realme to plant secretely that blasphemous Masse and other Poperie whereunto it appeareth hee hath allured many vnstable fooles and in Yorkeshire where his Sectaries disciples are apprehended iustly imprisoned nowe they rage as I heare say and curse him that euer he came there So ye see what maner of mā we are to talke withal What good we shall do with him the Lord doeth knowe other maner of men then we are and of another calling were more meete to talke with him then we notwithstanding we will doe our best that we can God giue it good effect As for you Campion I heare say that you vse to scoffe and iest at such as come to conferre with you we come not for that purpose it is not our profession yet I giue you warning Si quam maledicendo coeperis voluptatem eam malè audiendo amittes Now to the question which is that the scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation against the assertion of your booke For you say that the Lutherans haue cut off many bookes from the body of the new Testament and so diuided them from the Canonicall scripture which is not true Camp Yes that they haue and therein they haue done euill Walker Here Master Walker reade the words out of Campions challenge Campion Luther hath cut off the Epistle of Iames the second epistle of Iohn Iude and the seconde of Peter Luther hath found fault with these and improued them in his prefaces vpon those Epistles Walker Luther hath not doubted of them himselfe but shewed that others haue doubted of them Campion It is one thing to doubt an other thing to cut off Bring me the bookes and I will shewe that he hath cut them off Walker That can not bee shewed if the bookes were here For the Doctors doe not agree concerning these bookes that are of the Canon Some recite more some recite lesse as Origen Hierome and others and yet it were hard to say that they cut off any of the Canonicall bookes They doe as Luther may shewe what bookes were doubted of in their time and yet no whitte preiudice the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture Campion Well I say whatsoeuer they might doe then yet now seeing the Church hath otherwise determined it is blasphemie for any to doubt of them The Lutherans doe doubt of them bring me the bookes and I will shewe where Luther doubteth and therefore blasphemeth because the Church hath taken away the doubt videlicet the third Councill of Carthage and that of Laodicea Walker I do not professe my selfe a Lutheran but a Christian But if olde fathers and olde Councils haue not receiued these bookes for Canonical and bookes to ground our faith vpon then can not new men nor the Tridentine Council being ful of errors make thē Canonicall August de doct Christ. lib. 2. ca. 8. leaueth out Baruch the two last bookes of Esdras Hieronymus praes in li. Reg. Hūc prologū galeatū principiū vocat He saith Igitur Sapientia quae vulgo Salomonis inscribitur Iesu filij Syrach liber Iudith Tobias pastor nō sunt in Canone Macchabaeorū primū librū Hebraicū reperi secūdus Graecus est quod ex ipsa phrafi probari potest Eusebius also ecclesi hist. lib. 6. cap. 18. fol. 368. sequentibus omittit tertiū quartū Esdrae Tobiae Iudith Baruch Sapiētia Ecclesiastici Machabaeorum libros Paulo post De eo inquit qui est apud Hebraeos nonnulli dubitauerunt c. Sed ego dico ficut mihi à maioribus traditum est quia manifestissimè Pauli est Ibi de secunda Petri Epistola à nōnullis dubitatur De duabus vltimis Iohannis Epistolis apud quosdā dubia sententia He omitteth in the forenamed place the third fourth booke of Esdras the bookes of Tobie Iudith Baruch of Wisdome of Ecclesiasticus of the Macchabees A litle after Cōcerning that saith he which is written to the Hebrues many haue doubted but I say as hath bene deliuered vnto mee from mine Elders because it appeareth most manifestly to be of Paules There also concerning the second Epistle of Peter he sayth that it was doubted of many and so with some were the two last Epistles of Iohn The same Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. loquens de Melitone Episcopo Sardensis Ecclesiae qui recitans volumina veteris Testamenti omittit Esdras Tobi Hester Iudith Baruch Sapientiae Syrach Macchabaeorum c. Speaking of Melito the Bishop of the Church of Sardis who reckening vp the volumes of the olde Testament he omitteth Esdras Tobie Hester Iudith Baruch Wisedome Syrach the bookes of the Macchabees c. And the Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel the Apocalyps You see therefore that these old fathers haue left these bookes out of the Canon and yet were they neyther called heretiques nor blasphemers Campion It is not lawfull to cut off the bookes of the olde Testament from the Canon which not onely as I haue sayd Luther hath done but also Caluine The one hath reiected those bookes I haue named and the other reiecteth the bookes of Tobie Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome the bookes of Maccabees Baruch and the like which are de syncero Canone Walker What is this to that I haue saide I haue shewed that the olde Doctors haue refused them for Canonicall and therefore so many may we refuse and they them selues wil de no further admitted then they agree with the Canonicall Scriptures and these bookes which you name haue alwayes bene esteemed Apocrypha Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianorum Episcopum lib. 2. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenum nec tudebes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tuistius debueris Scripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione concertet c. August against Maximinus the Bishop of the Arrians Neither oughtest thou to bring the Council of Arimine nor I the Nicene as it were to preiudice the trueth neither should I be holden with the authoritie of this nor thou of
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
not vouchsafe the Doctours an answere shall they be sent away before they haue receiued their answere Camp They wrote vpon occasion against an heretike hauing affiance in workes Charke Be it so then they write aswell against Papists hauing affiance in workes Camp They had affiance in workes done without Christ and are therefore reproued by the Fathers Charke This is onely sayde to shake them all off with one false distinction Agayne it was a straunge occasion you speake of that made the Fathers write an vntrueth But rather you are straunge to expounde them directly against their wordes saying Faith onely doeth iustifie I could here helpe you with a better answere which the better learned on your side vse to this obiection Camp It was the heresie that most troubled Christians in the Primitiue Church Charke This is a newe question and in doubt But howe will you euer bee able to proue that the Apostle disputing for iustification by fayth against iustification by woorkes excludeth onely Paganisme Answere this Camp I haue answered Charke In deede you haue stil somwhat to say but not to answere that point of the argument which most woundeth your cause Therefore a Syllogisme against your shift The Apostle excludeth the morall Lawe from iustifying Therefore your distinction is wast Camp But he excludeth not charitie and good workes Charke What a But is that Is there any charitie or be there any good workes not conteyned vnder the morall and eternall Lawe of God If the deedes of the morall Lawe be shut out from the causes of our iustification by S. Paul what doore can you open to let them in againe Camp I say charitie and good workes are not excluded Charke And I say this is still to begge the question and not to answere the Argument So your doctrine is sufficiently ouerthrowen Walker Besides a great sort of places that master Charke hath brought Sadolet one of your owne hath a plaine place in Epist. ad Rom. Abraham attulit tantum fidem non sua opera And againe Quantum quisque affert de sua iustitia tantum defert de diuina beneficentia c. Camp It is but lost time that you you alleadge Sadolet Hee was but a man of late yeres whose credite is not to be set against the determination of the whole Church besides his meaning was that man should not trust in his owne workes Walker You will allowe no man neither those that are against you nor with you But if he had dealt as soundly in other things as in this he had bene to be striued withall He sheweth by an apt similitude that if a man take a Potte hauing some troubled water in it and goeth to the cleare water to fill it the troubled foule water in the potte doeth not become cleare but rather troubleth and defileth the water which was cleare Euen so the more we bring of our owne the lesse we attribute to God and the lesse we receiue from God Wee must bring nothing of our owne to God It is troubled water when we mingle our workes and righteousnes with Gods Camp Let the similitude be rehearsed It is an apt similitude He that commeth to be iustified by Christ must not bring troubled water but cleare that is those good workes that he did before and those prayers that he made before his morall deedes his almes his fasting c. For all the morall workes that are done before they are troubled water but those we doe afterwards they are made cleare in the Passion of Christ although they be not in all respects perfect Charke I wil so proue that good workes haue no place in iustification that you shall not be able to answere and because the Doctors can haue no answere I will returne to Scripture Sanctification and iustification are two sundry things Therefore good workes the fruites of sanctification haue no place in iustification Camp Make your Syllogisme Charke Whatsoeuer is an effect of sanctification that followeth is not a cause of iustification that went before But charitie and other good woorkes are effectes of sanctification which followeth Therfore they be no causes of iustification which goeth before Answere if you can Camp I deny that they are onely of sanctification they are of both Charke They be disparata handled by the Apostle as diuers things also the one some degrees before the other Therfore you doe euil to confound priora posteriora the effectes of the latter with the causes of the former Camp Is this the argument that can not be answered I say whosoeuer is iustified is also sanctified and so good workes proceede from both Charke Let all men marke the absurditie of this speache If good workes proceede from sanctification and sanctification from iustification howe can good workes goe before them both as a cause seeing they come after both as an effect Thus you are entoyled Here was an open misliking of the answeres and some speach of making an ende Then M. Charke saide I woulde faine vse one argument more to turne Campion out of all his shiftes and to let the company vnderstand his weakenes and especially the weakenes of his cause Campion Let vs heare what argument this is whereof you make such bragges Charke The authoritie and trueth of scriptures for my cause maketh me so confident Therefore marke the argument well We are iustified by Imputation onely Therefore by faith onely Camp Nego Maiorem I deny your Maior Charke I proue the Maior if you so call it Christ died onely by Imputation Therefore we liue onely by Imputation and are consequently iustified by faith onely Camp I deny the argument Charke I proue it by Analogie Christ died onely through the imputation of our sinne Therefore if we liue we liue onely by the imputation of his righteousnes And therfore to say that we liue by any imputation of our owne good workes is asmuch as to say that Christ died by imputation of some of his owne sinne For this analogie and proportion betwixt the causes of Christes death and the causes of our life doth necessarily hold and must diligently be obserued Camp I answere to your similitude Charke If it be a similitude it is by good analogie and demonstration of trueth out of the scripture It is you that abuse the hearers with similitudes that are not similia my argument is demonstratiue Camp I answere then to your analogie So farre as the scripture doth intend it holdeth like as Christ did beare our sinnes so we haue in vs the iustice of Christ. The righteousnes that we haue is giuen vs by Christ. Christ had our sinnes by imputation onely because hee was not capable of sinnes inherent But we are capable of iustice inherent which Christ doth giue vs and therefore in vs we haue the iustice of Christ both by imputation and also inherent giuen by him And therefore it is called the iustice Non qua ipse iustus est sed qua nos iustos fecit Not