Church of Iesus Christ nor That it hath his true faith I demanded of M. Walker whether the true Church be alwayes visible or no M. WALKER The true Catholike Church is not visible because it comprehendeth the whole companie of the elect of which the greatest part being Saynts in heauen are without the â—each of mans eye and cannot be seene M. SMITH My question is not of the Church Triumphant in heauen but of the true Catholike Church Militant vpon earth M. WALKER But thus your wordes and question cohere not togeather for it is as absurd to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth as it is absurd to affirme that all mankind euen the vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing M. SMITH Was S. Cyprian then absurd who called the militant Church vnited and conioyned in the vnion and linke of Priests adhering togeather The one Catholike Church To communicate with Cornelius the head only of the militant was to communicate with the Catholike Church Was S. Augustine absurd who tearmeth the militant Church whose communication we must hold The Catholike Church The militaÌ„t Church dispersed ouer the face of the earth The Catholik Church The militant Church in which alone one baptisme may be wholesomelie obtayned The one incorrupt Catholike Church The militant Church in which by imposition of handes the holy Ghost is giuen The only Catholike Church The Church in which good and euill be as chaffe and corne The Catholike Church The Church in which the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith and charity ceaseth not to be offered throughout the vniuersal world The holie Catholike Church But to presse you no further with the testimonies of men was the Sonne of God absurd when he sayd Other sheepâ— I haue that are not of this fold theÌ„ also I must bring they shall heare my voyce there shal be made one fold one Pastour Who were these other sheep but either Predestinate or many of them at least To what Fold were they brought Without doubt to Christs visible to Christs militaÌ„t to Christs Cath. Church for to no other would he bring them no other is his fold no other his one and that singular one of which he is chiefe and supreme Pastour Therfore not your inuisible but the visible and militant is the true Catholike Church of IESVS Christ Neyther are the Predestinate as you pretend before they be called meÌ„bers of his Church because this is the oracle of Truth They are not of my fold So much by the way for this Now that you may cease your wrangling and stick no longer in ambiguity of tearmes I tell you once agayne that I speake not of your Catholike and Inuisible but of that militant Church which we are bound to obey and heare that of whose Communion we ought to be that of which Christ sayd diâ— Ecclesiae Tell the Church What hold you of this Iâ— this Church visible or no M. WALKER I distinguish That Church may be two wayes considered either in regard of her outward men outward duties of Christianitie outward preaching of the Word and administration of the sacraments and so it is visible Or in respect of the inward election inward faith and spirituall graces and so it is inuisible A Catholike Gentleman Reserue your distinctions vntill you neede them and now answere directly to the Question M. SMITH Aske me any question and try whether I will vse any such tergiuersation What is your Conscience so horride or cause so bad as you dare neuer giue a direct answere M. WALKER I answere as I belieue M. SMITH And doe you not belieue what your owne men teach concerning this poynt Doe they not teach that the Church which we ought to heare is visible Or may we heare an inuisible Doth not D. Whitaker define it by these markes to wit by the true preaching oâ— the word and the true administration of the Sacraments And although he addeth that the whole Essence of the Church consisteth in them yet he sayth that these markes signifie and denote a visible Church Now doe not you belieue as he doth Or are you afrayd to confesse that Church to be visible which he confesseth Man consisteth of an inuisible essence yet is a visible man so the Church may haue some inuisible dowries yet be a visible Church M. WALKER You wronge D. Whitaker He neuer taught that the whole Essence of the Church consisted in the true peaching of the word and administration of Sacraments M. SMITH I wrong him not He teacheth writeth and diuulgeth it in print though you wrong both your self and vs in making these digressions and picking euery occasion to run from the matter M. WALKER Dare you stand to this that M. Whitaker writeth it I haue bâ—th read him and studied him I am sure he hath no such matter M. SMITH His bookes are extant you studied theÌ„ sleightly or vnderstood them not I am sure he hath it M. WALKER Because I will not spend tyme in contesting with you let this be the issue before these Gentlemen let vs send for D. Whitakers workes and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine that the Catholike Church iâ— inuisible that this is a mayne poinâ— large lie disputed by him and a mayne controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine let me branded with the marke of a wilfull liar M. SMITH Will you still fly to the ambush of your hidden Church Shall I neuer bring you into the open field Haue I not sufficiently inculcated vnto you that my question is of the Church now militant on earth of that Church which we ought to heare and obey of that which M. Whitaker describeth by the marks before mentioned of that which your selfe distinguished to be partly visible partly inuisible And run you now back againe to your counterfait Catholike and wholy inuisible Church Are you so sodainly distracted of your wiâ—s as not only to forget what I had sayd but what your selfe had written immediatly before Yet perhaps I may mistake It proceeded not so much from the giddines of your braine as from the guiltines of your coÌ„science which mistrusting the vaine vnaduised chalenge you made would now like a cunning Cheater by foysting in these words guilefullie diuert it to a quite coÌ„trary purpose For I neuer denied that M. Whitaker forgeth an inuisible Catholique Church but I so often canuased you froÌ„ straying thither as coÌ„mon sense might haue taught you to keep on your way staÌ„d to your tackling in mantaining the quarrell or saucie exception you tooke against me for saying that M. Whitaker placed the whole essence of the Church in the true preaching of the Word and true administration of the Sacraments This was that which then I sayd Against which you contested as before your words to deliuer the contestation truly as it was I must in part repeate againe leauing out that counterfait passage which you
signifieth to redeeme as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke Redime doth in Latin hence Peric signifieth a Redeemer Purkan Redemption and so Theodotio so Vatablus so S. Ierome and so all others expresse the word wherfore either all texts are falsified or all are true If all be false the Hebrew is tainted with corruption as wel as the Greeke and Latin if all true your translation is inexcusable in discording froÌ„ the truth of all originalls from the version of all the Auncients Syr Edward Harwood with others These Disputations about the Hebrew text are aboue our capacity anâ— filter for the Schooles I pray you descend to some more profitable matter and easier for our vnderstanding M. SMITH Vpon this motion only I ceased to rip vp the residue of Protestant corruptions but not because neyther I nor my Companion had any more to say as M. Walker according to his fashion peruersly relateth for infinite other deprauations of theirs are obuious and apparent as the fraudulency they vse in translating one and the same Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Traditio For in such textes as mention good and holsome Traditions they in lieu of Traditions read Ordinances where the Scripture speaketh of such as be naughty or friuolous they in hatred of our Apostolicall Traditions carefully set downe the right word Traditions The same deceit they practise in expressing the Hebrew word Sheol Hell For where it may import a third place besides Heauen Hell they warily turne it into Graue Gen. 37. v. 35. Osee 13. v. 14. but where it cannot be meant of any other then of the dungeon of the damned there they rightly translate it as in the 15. of the Prouerbes v. 24. Hel beneath I might haue vrged how they iuggle with the word worthy or make worthy against the merit of workes how they change Iustifications into Statutes Iustice into Righteousnes against inherent Iustice how they sometyme forsake the Hebrew and retire to the Greeke as in the 9 of Prouerbes v. 2. Wisdome hath mingled her wine because the Hebrew word Masecha wholy fauoureth the ancient mingling of water and wine in the Chalice which the Fathers vrge as necessary and Protestants vtterly neglect they fly to the ambiguity of the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which may signify to powre out as well as to mingle so did they alwayes read before his Maiesties Correction Otherwhiles they leaue the Greeke and haue recourse to the Latin as Act. 13. though the Greeke be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they sacrificing to our Lord as Erasmus translateth it yet your translation still runneth according to the Latine they ministring vnto our Lord because you cannot abide that word although written by God which doth any way relish of the Sacrifice of the Masse These and a thousand such of your guilefull sleights I might haue alleadged howbeit to condescend to the reasonable motion of Syr Edward Harwood and the rest I willingly omitted them and returned to prooue the second part of my first Antecedent which you denied The Antecedent was this The Word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours The former part is already prooued by the manifest adulterations of your Bible before mentioned The second Part. That your men also are subiect to errour I conuince by the confessioÌ„ of M. Reynoldes M. Whitaker and the most learned Protestantes of our tyme who expresly write that the true Church which they suppose theirs to be may erre and all her Pastours in some points of fayth euen necessary to saluation Therfore your men your Preachers and Pastours are subiect to errour M. WALKER I graunt that the true Church may erre for a tyme insome one fundamentall point necessary to saluation this I affirme of the Protestant Church of our Church of England Ground what you can vpon this M. SMITH Though some of the Catholikes heerevpon cryed out We haue inough inough let vs leaue of our dispute yet to giue more full satisfaction to the ProtestaÌ„t Gentlemen who perceaued not so soone the absurdity of this Paradoxe or folly of M. VValker in granting that very part of my Antecedent which before he denyed I proceeded a little further and argued thus against him If your Church may erre in one point necessary to saluation it may as well erre in another and so caÌ„ propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth Which inference though M. VValker denyed and with many cauillations laboured to diuert yet it euidently followeth as I thus declare That Church which hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth But your Church which may erre now in one point now in another at least for a tyme hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true Therefore your Church can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth For seeing the Articles in which your Church may erre are not specified by God nor knowne to your followers they may iustly feare and suspect least those she now proposeth be some of them in which she may erre But with feare and suspition no fayth can stand nothing can she propose which ought vndoubtedly to be belieued as S. Augustine in the like case most excellently discourseth saying How can he be belieued who thinketh he may sometyme tell a lye for perchance he then lyeth when he câ—mmauÌ„deth vs to beleeue him So you that hold your Church may sometyme erre haue cause to doubt least then perchance she erreth when she commaundeth you to follow her doctrine If cause to doubt no cause to obey no cause to credit her Nay it implyeth coÌ„tradictioÌ„ we should with diuine fayth giue credit vnto her For by fayth we are assured that the thing she teacheth cannot possibly be otherwise then we belieue By doubtfulnes or suspicion we mistrust they may be otherwise Els why do we doubt Why do we suspect Therfore it is a manifest implicancy and irreconciliable coÌ„tradiction that fayth and doubtfulnes should coÌ„sist togeather that we should be vndoubtedly persuaded of the truth proposed yet stagger and misdoubt of the truth therof as you haue iust cause to do as long as you maintayne that your Church may deceaue you Besides to prooue out of the former Paradoxe that your Church is not the true Church I framed these Syllogismes That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fuÌ„damentall point necessary to saluation hath no certainty for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church Againe That Church which may erre for a tyme in a fuÌ„damentall point necessary to saluation hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that tyme. Yours is such Ergo it is no true Church M. WALKER These
arguments are sophisticall and faulty because they haue foure termes With the same Censure he discarded other Syllogismes as crazy imperfect he denied to answere any Enthymeme and such was his feare of hazarding both cause and credit as he reiected also a true and perfect Syllogisme in moode in figure as the Roman Catholike whome he mentioned maintayned against him Though he did not renounce his saluatioÌ„ if it were not true which M. Walker after his wonted fashion most iniuriously reporteth of him M. SMITH Your cause lyeth a bleeding wheÌ„ you thus begin to wrangle about Syllogismes yet these two which I haue heere repeated with the third which immediatly followeth in your Summe are such as no Scholler would reprehend For the conclusion which seems to make the Syllogisme consists of foure termes supposeth another Syllogisme vertually inuolued which to auoid tediousnes I did not expresse After which manner all Enthymenes are iustified and allowed notwithstanding one of the premisses be suppressed and the conclusion be immediatly inferred A thing very vsuall amoÌ„g the learned in all Vniuersities especially when the Disputant is either straitned with shortnes of tyme or the Auditory ouer-wearied as now it was with the combersome delay of 4. long houres by reason of your manifold digressioÌ„s idle repetitioÌ„s impertinent discourses ouer-tedious writings c. But you who neuer appeared in any such schooles neuer peeped out of Aristotles Parua's no meruaile though you could not apprehend that kind of arguing I pardon your ignorance I beare with your dulnes passe to those Syllogismes in moode and figure which you could not gainsay That Church which hath not the whole entire and infallible fayth hath not meanes sufficient to saluation But that Church which may erre for a tyme in a fundameÌ„tall point hath not the whole entire and infallible fayth Therfore it hath not meanes sufficient to saluation M. WALKER I deny your Minor and do put you to prooue that the Church which may erre hath not the whole and infallible fayth M. SMITH If it do erre it hath not whole entire fayth if it may erre it hath not infallible fayth as thus I prooue That Church which is subiect to errour in a fuÌ„damentall point hath not the whole and infallible fayth But that Church which may erre in such a point is subiect to errour Therfore it hath not whole and infallible fayth M. WALKER I must tell you that your Minor proposition is false For a Church may be so farre subiect to errour that it may haue a possibility to erre yet not be void of the whole and infallible fayth It is one thing to be subiect to errour and another to erre actually We hold that our Church may erre but doe not thinke that it doth erre in any fundamentall point M. SMITH If it may erre if it hath a possibility to erre it is as bad as if it did erre in respect of the certainty which fayth requireth for thus I argue That Church which is fallible in a fundamental point of fayth is not also infallible in the whole and entire fayth But your Church which is subiect to errour which hath a possibility to erre in a fundamentall point of fayth is fallible Therfore it is not also infallible in the whole entire fayth Vnlesse it may be in one and the same thing both fallible and infallible subiect to errour and not subiect which is impossible Mâ—â—revpon I concluded that sith the ProtestaÌ„t Church is fallible in fayth it hath not any true supernaturall fayth if it hath no true fayth it caÌ„not be a true Church which were the two things I was engaged to prooue and so I haue fully discharged my taske to the satisfaction I hope of all that be present For M. Walker being caught in this net of contradiction had no meanes to escape vnles as S. Augustine writeth of Maximinâ—s the Arrian Bishop By talking much and nothing to the purpose he might seeme at lest to answere who was not able to hold his peace Therfore some of his companions intreated he might argue a while to see whether he could haue better fortune in impugning our Church theÌ„ he had in defending theirs But before I relate the disputation he begaÌ„ I think it expedient for the instruction of such as are better conuersant in Diuinity to vnfold certayne Theologicall Principles or Articles of fayth whereby the force of my former argument the truth of our doctrine the folly of protestancy and the enormity of M. Walkers answere may more apparently be discouered The first Principle is that Fidei non potest subessâ— falsum fayth cannot be subiect to any falsity Faith is infallible sith it hath for its former obiect the prime Verity or authority of God it relieth vpon his infinite Knowledge which cannot be deceiued in vnderstanding any thing and vpon his infinite Veracity which will not beguile vs in testifying an vntruth It is impossible for God to lye we haue a most strong comfort But as it is impossible for God to lye impossible for him to witnes that which may be false So it is impossible for the habit of Fayth to incline or for the act of Fayth to assent to that which is lyable to any falshood As S. Thomas singularly well prooueth by these 3. Reasons First because nothing can belong to the habit or act of fayth except that which appertaineth to theyr formall obiect and in such sort as it is instilled conueyed and drawne from thence Euen as no colour can be seene vnlesse it be garnished with the beames of light But to prime Verity no falsity can belong not only any actuall falshood but not so much as any thing that hath a possibility to be fals no more then any pronesse to euill can appertayne to soueraigne goodnes or the least shadow of darknes to light inaccessable Therfore Fayth which hath prime Verity for her obiect must not only be free from actuall errour but from all lyablenes therunto or possibility of erring Secondly euery act euery habit is necessarily lincked with equall proportion of certainty or assurance with the certainty of the obiect of which it borroweth its dignity nature and forme Wherfore as the prime Verity and testimony of God so the habit and act of Fayth are both infallible Thirdly Fayth is an intellectuall Vertue which doth perfect enoble the faculty of our Vnderstanding which cannot receaue the dye of perfection from any other thing then that which is true because that only as all Philosophers teach is her proper peculiar obiect Hence it is that S. Paul describeth Fayth not only to be the substaÌ„ce that is the setled ground the constant and stablâ— foundation according to S. Dionysius of our hope but also an argument of things not appearing that is a firme assent a demonstratioÌ„ or Conuiction as S. Augustine sayth of our vnderstanding which cannot be obnoxious to any danger of falsity The
second Principle presupposeth that Faith must not only be infallible but whole also and entire Witnes S. Athanasius in the beginning of his Creed Whosoeuer doth not beleiue the Catholike faith wholy iâ—uiolably he shall vndoubtedly perish And S. Leo A great safeguard is faith entire true faith in which nothing can be added by any nothing deâ—racted because vnlesse fayth be one it is no fayth the Apostle auerring One Lord One fayth To which purpose our Sauiour himself auoucheth He that beleiueth not shall be condemned that is he that beleiueth not euery Article expresly or implicitely he that beleiueth not the whole summe of Christian doctrine shall incurre the forfaiture of his saluation For as all thinges are to be obserued whatsoeuer Christ commanded so all thinges to be beleiued whatsoeuer he taught and in such manner that albeit the mysteries in themselues are some of lesse some of greater moment some necessary some contingent yet as they are testified reuealed by God they ought all with equall certaintie with the same suretie to be credited imbraced because God in all things little or great necessarie or contingent is equally great of infallible credit Wherby euery Article is so fast riuetted and conioyned one with the other in such vniforme due proportion as they make sayth S. Gregory Nazianzen A Chayne truly golden and soueraigne From which if your withdraw but one you withdraw your saluation as S. Ambrose writeth The third principle is that the ordinary meanes of atteyning the whole and infallible fayth is from the mouth of the Church from the lipps of her Priests because fayth is by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ to wit by the word expounded and preached vnto vs by his lawfull Pastours for it goeth immediatly before How shall they heare without à Preacher and how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Whervpon it necessarily ensueth that if they be sent from God to teach his heauenly doctrine if we be bound to beleiue vpon their testification and preaching their preaching must be certaine their testification vndeceiuable that we may securely receyue the word they deliuer not as the word of men but as it is indeed the word of God who by their mouthes speaketh by their testimony sealeth and witnesseth it vnto vs especially seeing he commandeth vs to heare them as himself to obey them as his Vicegerents to beleiue them vnder penaltie of damnation seing he giueth them the Holy Ghost to teach them all truth to sanctifie them in veritie that we be not carryed about with any winde of doctrine Therefore as God cannot immediatly by himself or mediatly by any other deliuer that which may be doubtfull or vncertaine so much lesse by the mouth of those his witnesses his iudges his interpreters by whome he vttereth the Oracles of truth as I might more fullie demonstrate if I had not already elswhere vncontrollably euicted and proued the same Yea the very nature and condition of fayth perforce requireth it for that being an assent of our vnderstanding to thinges not appearing that is not appearing true through the euidence of truth in themselues or through the light of humane reason but only by this Authority of God who testifieth them not immediatly but by the meanes of his Church by the true Pastors and expounders of his word if they might vary or fluctuate in the rules they follow of expounding Scripture their expositions were wauering their preaching vncoÌ„stant they could neither assuredly teach nor we vndoubtedly giue credit to that which they propose as to constant stable and immoueable truth For it is a warrantable position of M. Whitakers Such as the meanes be such of necessitie must be the interpretation it selfe But the meanes of interpreting obscurâ— places are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous Then it cannot possibly be but that the interpretation it self is vncertaine if vncertaine then may it be false But if it may be false as M. Walker acknowledgeth the interpretation of the Protestants Church may be it ouerthroweth the ground of fayth the foundation of Religion For what els can be or any of his fellowes assigâ—e on which they stay oâ— anâ—ker the certaintie of diuine beleife Their particuler pastor Their priuate spirit But if their Pastours in generall may trip and slumble how much more their particular If the publicke spirit of their Church be errable how deceiuable is their priuate Againe the priuate spirit is hidden it cannot be discouered and opened to others and yet it is open it self to a thousand illusions Therefore it must be tryed by some more known and certaine spirit What then do you build vpoÌ„ the voice of God that speaketh in the Scripture but that voyce is no other then the bare word or out ward letter of Holy writ of that ariseth our strife and debate That also speaketh most errably to you as your owne contentions and infinite hersies sprung from thence beare euident witnes If your reply that it speaketh inerrably to such a read and heare it with faith and humilitie as they ought you send me still a rouing in the wildernes of vncertaintie for how shall I know who they be that obserue those conditions as they ought And what is this as they ought after your Puritanicall or Caluinian manner Lastly let it be for this wil be your last and poorest refuge that the true Church of IESVS Christ hath alwayes such well known to him what is this to you if you know them not What if we disproue as we plainly doe your Church to be his Where are your humble Readers your faithfull interpreters Or to yield you the vttermost your can aske though most impudently begged at our hands let there be such Readers such Interpreters among you eyther they alwayes infallibly obserue the conditions specified interpreting still a right and then your Church by their direction contrarie to your Tenent can neuer erre Or they fallibly obserue them and so your Church may run astray it cannot be the pillar of faith the storehouse of truth the voyce or trumpet of supernaturall beleife as my last two Syllogismes printed by M. Walker vndeniably conclude which as long as they shall remaine registred in his Pamphlet so long shall it beare the record of his owne disgrace so long shall it proclayme the victorie of our Catholike cause so long shall the Protestant Church lie panting in the dust without life without strength without vitall breath Now let vs behold what new life M. Walker can breath into it to reuiue it againe Marry that a true Christian Church may erre for a tyme in some one fundamentall poynt necessarie to saluation he disputeth thus M. WALKER That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe But the Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine poynt and yet haue a true faith and was a true Church Ergo Other Churches also M. SMITH I deny the Minor The Apostolical Church did not erre in a maine point of Fayth M.
A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy betweene M. Smith aliâs Norrice and M. VValker Held in the presence of two VVorthy Knights and of a few other Gentlemen some Catholikes some Protestants With a briefe Confutation of the false and adulterated summe which M. Walker Pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete hath diuulged of the same Permissu Superiorum M. DC XXIIII TO THE READER IT IS no Nouelty lately practised by the Protestāts of our age it hath alwaies beene the vsual trade and inueterate guile of Heretikes in former tymes to corrupt falsifie and depraue not onlie the Bookes and Writings but the wordes sayings and other Conferences they haue held with the professours of the Catholike Church Origen complayneth how his bookes were thus abused by the enemies of God and Sowers of Cockle euen in his owne dayes S. Augustine writeth that the Donatists being conuicted of falshood in a Collation he had with them did after maliciously calumniate and traduce the sentence giuen against them as falslie pronounced The Arians Pelagians and other auncient Sectaries were attainted of the like crime And now our Puritans and Protestants are proued guiltie of the same or far more treacherous dealing by which they labour to vnderproppe the rotten beames of their ruinous vnconstant declining doctrine 2. Of this fraud and deceite Hunnius Hail-bronner and their companions were guiltie who being vāquished in the meeting at Ratisbone diuulged notwithstanding many false reports of their triumph and victorie Of this was M. Iewell guilty as D. Harding in manie of his writings M. VValsingham in his Search haue euidētly discouered Guilty was M. Reynolds in publishing his Conference with M. Hart wherein he forged diuers things to the credit of his owne and disaduantage of his Opponents cause of which he neuer so much as dreamed Therefore S. Gregorie trulie auerreth of these and such like heretikes that by their labours and disquisitions they endeauour not so much to attayne the truth as to seeme victorious they more eagerlie thirst after the applause of men then the glory of God they seeke such things as apertayne to themselues not such as belong to Iesus Christ. 3. In which kind most notable now of late and most fresh in memorie is the pride and arrogancie of D. Featly who impudentlie boasted of his supposed Conquest in a meeting which he D. VVhite had with M. Fisher and M. Sweete from which neuerthelesse he cowardlie fled wholie discomfited and blotted with the ignomonie of a desperate Retraite No lesse shamefull though in a conflict lesse famous is the vanitie of M. VValker in bragging of the Conference betweene him and M. Smith which himself hath set forth stuffed with such a heapeof false and guilefull relations as he may seeme according to the Prophet to haue made lying to be protected Nothing trembling at that dreadfull sentēce which is prophesied of him Thou O Lord hatest all that work iniquity thou wilt destroy them all that tell a lye Howbeit not one but so manie lies hath he diuulged as I may say with Ieremie he hath bent his tongue or prepared his quill as a bowe of lying and not of truth c. His tongue is a wandering arrow it hath spoken guile For in relating the arguments and answers which passed on both sides some he changeth some he corrupteth heere he leaueth out there he foisteth in one while he disioynteth the wordes otherwhile he dismembreth peruerteth the sense in fine he maketh such a misshapen and confused Chaos of malicious slaunders of foolish impertinent additions as may well become one of his owne deformed and bastardly brood which the iudicious Reader may playnlie perceaue by the true narration I shall heer deliuer without inserting any more then shall be necessarie for the iust reproofe of the aduersaries forgeries or redargution of other speaches purposelie omitted and suppressed by him 4. Yet meruaile not I haue so long delayed this obligation I had to cleere my self satisfie the interest Iowe to truth For the first Copie of my answere fullie perfected and addressed to the presse though in a forrayne Countrie because the tyme permitteth not any such commoditie at home was as it often happeneth intercepted by the way and the interception concealed from my knowledge for the space of six whole weekes So powerfull is the aduerse faction in bearing vs downe and openlie disgracing vs with their calumnious libels and so vigilant and watchfull in stopping all possible meanes we should take to manifest our innocencie But such violent oppression cannot still continue the Widowes teares the Orphans cryes will at length be heard and Christs afflicted flocke our silenced pennes may find a tyme to lay open our sinceritie and the wrong which is done vs by their false criminations A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy betweene M. Smith aliâs Norrice M. VValker M. SMITH aliâs NORRICE So M. Walker stileth me FIRST then it is false that I chalenged any Minister to dispute I onlie yelded for the satisfaction of Syr William Harington to giue a meeting to any whom he should bringe Secondly it is false that I was assisted by any more Priests then onlie one by any more Catholikes then foure I for solemnelie conditioned at the beginning that there should be no more then fiue or six persons at the most on a side to the end the Conference might be verie secret and priuate without concourse of people or noyse abroad for feare of affoarding disgust vnto the State in that our quiet tyme of peace and conniuencie Which conditions I punctuallie obserued though the Aduersarie was so bold as to violate and infring them both by bringing more then the appointed number as by publishing also the whole discourse to the open view and sight of the Realme yet so fraudulentlie so corruptlie as forceth me to this right and vnfaygned replie Then although it be true that I intreated the disputation might be performed sweetlie and with all mildnes without bitter wordes or reproachfull taunts yet M. Walker made no such answere as he hath forged in his Pamphlet True also it is that I excepted against the vnmannerlie tearmes of calling our Church Whore of Babylon the Pope Antichrist desired no such odious Epithetes might be vsed now especially whē it pleased the Kings Maiesty to send to his Holines for a dispensation for the mariage of our Noble Prince Yet I sayd not that his Maiestie sued to his Holines or gaue the Pope that honour The awe of reuerence I bore to so mightie a Monarch did temper my tongue from vsing any such wordes as seemed to carry the least shew of distast At length that we might proceed more solidelie and not floate vp and downe vpon vncertaynties I desired we might both agree in some generall positiōs or irreuocable Tenents as grounds of our ensuing dispute Wherevpon being to proue That the Protestants Church is not the true
themselues are infallible for as long as any of these closely adhere to the word of God are guided by his doctrine and follow his direction so long they cannot erre And what hath your Church no more priuiledge or freedome from errour then Iewes then Turkes then Diuels M. WALKER Yes because Iewes and Turkes adhere not to the word of God they follow not the truth we doe M. SMITH Doe you because you say you doe Will not they say the same haue as good warrant as you But how shall we know you follow the truth what proofs alleage you To chaleng it thus without proofes seeing it is the matter controuerted between vs is Petere principium that is miserably to begge the argument we handle or to giue that for a reason which is only in question both most ridiculous and hissed out of all schooles Therfore M. Walker was so wary as to conceale in his SuÌ„me this inference of mine and the foolish reply or desperate Non-plus of his Moreouer to say your Church cannot erre as it cleaueth close to Gods Word speaketh and teacheth according to it or as long as it swarueth not from thence is nothing els theÌ„ to auouch though in other wordes that it cannot erre as it cleaueth to truth speaketh and teacheth according to truth or that it cannot erre as long as it erreth not which is as idle as the former was foolish because to adhere to Gods word is to adhere to the truth to swarue from thence is to runne into errour So that this answere is nothing to the purpose no way able to satisfie my demand for by asking of you Whether your Church may erre or no I demaund whether it be so assisted by God and guided by his holy spirit as it must needs cleaue to his word it cannot depart from it in deliuering any point of faith What answere you to this is your Church thus inerrable or no M. WALKER I haue told you alreadie how it may erre and how it may not M. SMITH And I haue refuted what you sayed If you haue nothing els to answere to my Interrogatories answere me a little to a Syllogisme or two I shall propose by which I meane to proue euen by this which you haue graunted that the Protestants Church of England is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. And thus I frame my argument That Church which hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. But the Protestant Church of England hath not the word of God trulie preached and infallibly deliuered Therfore it is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. M. WALKER I denie the Minor M. SMITH I proue the Minor The word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours and the men that deliuer it are subiect to errours Therfore the Church of England hath not the word of God truly preached and infallibly deliuered M. WALKER I deny the Antecedent M. SMITH The Antecedent hath two parts the first of them I declare by induction Malachy 2. v. 7. where all true copies haue The lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge and the law they shalâ— require of his mouth you corruptly reade The lippes of the Priest should keepe knowledge and they should require the law of his mouth contrary to the Hebrew text which insteed of shall keepe hath Iismâ—ru insteed of shall seeke Iebakkesu contrary to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contrary the Latine which is custodient and requirent all being of the Future tense and Indicatiue moode which you haue changed into the Preterimperfectense of the Optatiue or Subiunctiue moode altering therin both moode and tense of set purpose to gainsay the infallibility of Christs visible pastours who lawfully succeed in the Apostles roome and to patronage an errour or rather Heresy of your owne That the Priests Prelats of Gods Church may erre in doctrine and so the people not bound to require the law at their mouthes M. WALKER We haue not corrupted the Hebrew text for the true meaning of the Holy Ghost is perfectly deliuered by our Translation M. SMITH But answere me directly Are not the Hebrew Greeke and Latin wordes all in the future Tense Do they not all import shall keepe and shall require And haue not you altered both the tense and moode Is it not so what say you M. WALKER Though the wordes be in the future tense yet wee haue kept the true sense because the future tense in Hebrew by reason of vau conuersiuum may sometime stand for the preterimperfect tense of the Optatiue Potentiall oâ— Subiunctiue moode as our translation hath therfore it is noâ— different nor irregular from the Hebrew which is the Originall M. SMITH But this is a meere collusion for heere is no Vau conuersiuum in that place nor can there be as all that are cunninge in the Hebrew can tell so that this shift will not serue your turne nor that other of keeping the sense For I accuse you of corrupting the text But to alter the tense to alter the moode to alter the word of the Holy Ghost is to corrupt the text to change the diuine characters written by the finger of God Therfore your Translation is guilty of this change and corruption Otherwise if adulterers of Scripture may iudge of the sense where shall you find any adulteration what Heretike can be conuinced of corruptioÌ„ For aske the Arians aske the Valentinians aske Marcion who for paring or gnawing away many places of Gods word was called Mus-Ponticus the mouse of Pontus aske any of these Corrupters they will all answere they keep the sense bring as sound arguments as you do for the maintenance therof for such is your proofe M. WALKER It was â—euer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place or by these wordes to teach that the law should awayes be taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastours who succeâ—d Moyses or the Apostles locally in the church by a continued succession M. SMITH Heere againe you fall to Petere principium for we proue it was his purpose because his wordes enforce it And haue you no other meanes to disproue it then by denying it was his purpose because he did neuer purpose it And why did he neuer purpose it Because is not agreable to the purpose of your Hereticall phrensie Though it be consonaÌ„t agreable to Gods sacred doctrine vttered vnfolded in diuers other places as when he sayeth that his spirit his wordes shal not depart out of the mouth of his Prophets and their seede and seeds seede for euer That he who heareth the Pastours of the Church heareth him That if any controuersy arise amongst inferiours they shall come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke and do whatsoeuer they shall teach according to the law It is consonant to these texts and sundry the like to which
WALKER The act of Christs Resurrection from the dead taught in Scripture is a fundamentall point of Fayth The Apostolicall church did erre in it Ergo c. M. SMITH I distinguish the Minor The Apostles erred or rather were ignorant of the act of Christes Resurrection as a matter of fact I graunt the Minor as an Article of faith I deny it for it was indeed a diuine verity a true matter of fact at that tyme yet no article of faith M. WALKER Behold Gentlemen he denyeth the Resurrection to be an Article of faith M. Smiths Companion You wilfully abuse him he denyeth it not absolutly but only for that tyme because it was not then sufficiently promulgated M. WALKER Reach me the Bible I will shew the contrary in expresse words of Scripture So opening the booke he read how some of the Apostles knew not the Scriptures that he must rise from the dead how our Sauiour appeared to the eleauen Apostles and vpbrayded their incredulity and hardnes of hart because they belieued not them who had seene him after he was risen At this Syr William Harington houlding vp his handes sayd Oh I protest I neuer heard any poynt so playnely prooued M. SMITH Proued he hath proued nothing For I graunt the Apostles were slow in belieuing dull in vnderstanding the resurrection of Christ but I say it was not then an article of fayth which they were obliged expressely to belieue because it was not so clearely promulgated and proued vnto them as to bynd them vnder the payne of Heresy or note of Infidelity at that tyme to imbrace A Protestant Gentleman Say you soe Was it not expressely reuealed in Scripture sufficiently promulgated by Christ himself M. SMITH I acknowledge the reuelation of scripture the promulgation of Christ sufficient in themselues yet not in respect of the Apostles capacity for they were yet rude and weake of vnderstanding they had not as yet that inward illustration and light of the holy Ghost those outward motiues and arguments of credibility which did binde them to giue infallible assent to so deep a mystery They assented and belieued that all was true which Christ sayd all true which the Scriptures reuealed concerning his Resurrection yet they knew not whether the sense and meaning of those passages were to be taken truely or enigmatically properly or figuratiuely Of this only were they ignorant and this ignorance proceeded from their imbecillity and weakenesse and not from the insufficiency of holy Scripture The Gentleman satisfied with this M. Walker grauelled with the former answere his reasoning was at an end howbeit his brawling would haue no end for the foresayd distinction held him at such a bay as notwithstanding he bragged much of his dexterity in disputing yet with all his cunning Sophistry he could not so much as frame one argument one Syllogisme or Enthimeme against it But being in a monstrous rage because his pryde could not brooke such a fowle ouerthrowe I thought good to giue way to his chafing fit and so departed with these very wordes VVell well I perceiue my distinction hath choked your argument you are not able to proceed Now after that I arose and walked hard by the other Priest that assisted me explicating the answere that I had giuen sayd M. Smiths Companion It is not much to be meruailed that the Apostles at the first conceaued not aright the Resurrection of Christ for the Apostolicall Church was then in her infancy it was newly raysed not wholy finished begun but not perfected The Euangelicall law was deliuered yet not fully established And can this vndergoe the censure of any other doctrine then sound and orthodoxall Or could M. Walker iustly vaunt of any allegation he brought against M. Smith Then read and detest the arrogant style of an hereticall Impostor who blusheth not to print after his confusion these flourishing wordes M. WALKER M. Smith being put to silence with those proofes the other Priest to make vs this breach fled to another shift and denyed the Apostles to haue byn a Church at that tyme because the Holy Ghost was not yet come downe nor the Euangelicall law reuealed M. SMITH If you were not already returned in open Court for a willfull lyar forger false Prophet and Priest of Baal your wordes might beare some shew of credit but in so much as you are notoriously defamed for such an one I onely intreat the Reader to iudge whether I were silenced or you whether my Companion fled to another shift or defended the answere which I gaue Whether you haue not writhed his wordes to a faulty strayne of purpose to reprooue them For he denyed not the Apostles to haue byn at that tyme a Church nor that the Euangelicall law was reuealed but that it was not promulgated that the Church was not yet perfect or law cōplete For how could it be then fully cōplete when it wanted diuers guiftes and endowments necessary to the entyre complement and perfection therof When it wanted the spirituall comfort and inward Vnction of the Holy Ghost When it wanted her outward promulgation essentially required to the establishmēt of a law When it wanted the guift of tongues most requisit for the conuersion of all Nations When it wāted that vigour or strength of verity of which our Sauiour sayd Tarry in the Citty till you be endued with power from high How then M. Walker how could your conscience serue you to carpe or reprehend that saying of his strengthned and supported by such warrantable proofes To peruert and disorder the whole frame and methode of your owne disputation How could it serue you 1. To charge me with tearming the Apostles ignorance or hardnesse of hart an errour of forgetfulnesse 2. To faygne me to say that the Scriptures had not expressely reuealed how Christ should rise from the dead 3. To faygne that I intreated you to shew it me out of the Ghospell 4. That I persisted still how the Scriptures had not sufficiently reuealed it All most iniurious and hideous lyes Notwithstāding these leasinges of his or selfe-deuised fancyes he mustreth a band of three seuerall probations and graceth the last with the admiratiō or solemne acclamation of one of his Assistantes howbeit it was vsed vpon another occasion Such is euery where the iugling of that vain-glorious Sycophant yet he dischargeth me from the labour of refuting his arguments sith they are nothing else but engines raysed to batter the forts of his owne conceits which neuertheles he suffereth not to fall to the ground without the sound of his fellowes applause praysing himselfe for ouercomming himselfe in such a skirmish in which he is both the assayler and the assayled he the Maister and he the maystered idely conquering and basely conquered both at once Moreouer he reprooueth me for making a strange
distinction between a thing as he tearmeth it and it selfe because I sayd that the act of Christs Resurrection was a true matter of fact a diuine Verity yet no article of fayth which the Apostles then were bound expresly to belieue But is this so strange I will giue you an instance of the like strange distinction The validity of baptisme ministred by Heretiks was alwayes a diuine Verity alwayes a truth sufficiently reuealed in holy Scriptures in the first of S. Iohn and the third of S. Luke where it is written It is he that baptizeth Christ is the principall agent whose action cannot be frustrated by the faultes of his instrument yet this was not alwayes an article of fayth vntill it was publickly defined by the Consistory of Gods Church which caused Vincentius Lirynensis to free them from heresy who defended the contrary before to condemne such as persisted in vpholding it after the definition his wordes are these O wonderfull change and alteration of thinges The Fathers of one and selfe same opinions are adiudged Catholiques the followers Heretiques the maysters are acquitted the disciples condeÌ„ned the wryters of bookes shall be Sonnes of the kyngdome the maintainers of the same shall be cast into hell Finally M. Walker for his vpshot relateth the commendation a Catholike gaue him of his noble conquest after he was thus discomfited I reprint his words which he for very shame disguiseth vnder the cloke of a third person M. WALKER When the Priestes were very willing to make an end and the Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied and made them ready to depart One of the Roman Catholiques calling M. Walker aside began to collogue and flatter with him telling him that he was a good Logician a good Linguist and well read and that God had giuen him a sharp wit and ready tongue and therfore no meruaile though he preuayled and made a good cause seeme bad when he opposed it and a bad cause seem good when he defended it M. SMITH Fye fie M. Walker Are you so greedy of a little vayn-glory as thus to blazon with your owne pen for you penned the whole summe though you maske it vnder another vizard the false lustre of your supposed talents Of such as neuer were acknowledged by any of your Pew-fellowes in CaÌ„bridge much lesse extolled by the mouth of a Catholike For I enquired of the GeÌ„tlemaÌ„ who coÌ„ferred with you he solemnly protesteth before God and man and is ready if need require to confirme it with his Oath yea and iuridically to diuulge it to all the word First that he neuer gaue you those high titles of commendation which you set downe Secondly that the Courtly complements he cast vpon you were meerely in iest by the figure of Ironia as the Wisedome of God iested at Adam after his fall saying Loe Adam is become as it were one of vs knowing good and euill yet such was your quick and subtile wit so worthy of admiration as it conceiued that to be spoken in good earnest which was vttered in derision to laugh you to scorne By which and by all the former passages euery indiffereÌ„t man may easily perceiue 1. How poore a Religion Protestancy is and how weake a Patrone heere she had who could bring no better propps to sustaine it then knauery fraudulency lyes and falsifications 2. How Thraso-lyke M. Walker boasteth of the Victory and endeth the scene of his fabulous discourse with that triumphaÌ„tsentence Magna est veritas praeualet Great is truth and it doth preuaile For vnlesse salshood may be inthroned in the chaire of Truth and Vanity possesse the seat of Verity farre too-too farre is he from preuayling who hath ben conuicted and notably disgraced with so many tergiuersations digressions forgeryes and grosse absurdityes who hath byn driuen to such shamefull begging of the principall question to grant that after which before he had denyed to deny that now which he formerly granted yea to a flat â—ntrariety and playne contradiction the greatest â—yles a Scholler can take He I say who hath byn â—ot only vanquished and defeated but chased out â—f the field at euery encounter In which neuertheesse if he had stood and vpheld his quarrell as God forbid he should seeth he not what horrible crimes he had layd to the Apostles charge What â—famies on their flock Seeth he not what a breach â—e had made in Syon What ruines in his owne IerusaleÌ„ For by attaching the Apostolicall Church of erring in a fundamentall point manifestly reuealed in holy Scripture and often intimated by the Sonne of God he attacheth it of Infidelity he enditeth it of Heresie and wholy depriueth it of the happy meanes of saluation For the entire profession of sauing truth as Caluin Field and other prime Protestants confesse with vs is necessary to the state of saluatioÌ„ which the Apostolical Church wanted when it erred according to him in that essentiall article of Christs Resurrection it wanted then the soueraigne meanes of attayning eternall blisse and so could not be the spouse of Christ the gate of life the temple of God or Church of his beloued sonne without all-sauing truth it is impossible to be his sauing Church The same is more strongly confirmed by the dotage it selfe M. Walker very dotingly laboured to proue or else proued nothing for his purpose That the Apostolike Church erred in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation For if it was necessary the Church could not be saued without it if it might be saued without it it was not an article at that tyme necessary to be belieued Neyther doth he only bereaue that pure and primitiue flocke of the riches of blisse of the integrity of fayth in that one he specified but by the same argument in all other points of belief For as by one mortall sinne the Vertue of charity is wholy expelled according to S. Iames He that offendeth in one is made guilty of all so by one only Heresy or act of Infidelity the habit of fayth is vtterly lost which S. Paul teacheth affirming that Hymenaus and Alexander made ship wrack of their fayth albeit they only denied one sole article to wit the future Resurrection of our flesh Which the Fathers witnesse when they auouch that such as fall into Heresy are degraded of the dignity and right of Christianity Which D. Whitaker also approueth saying If any one fundamentall point of doctrine be remoued the Church presently falleth Wherupon it followeth that the Apostolicall Church was presently buried in her owne ruines that the Apostles made ship wrack of their fayth that they were no Chistians when they beleeued not the Resurrection of Christ if then they were bound to receiue it as a fundamentall article of their beliefe Nay it followeth hereon that the whole fould of Christ for it was wholy no doubt inwrapped in the Apostles errour became ô monstrous impiety and most hellish consequence became I say a heard of