euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
mortuorum de vnigeniti in carne aduentu de sancto testamento veteri ac nouo in summa de alijs constitutionibus perfectae salutis I will write vnto you concerning the faith seeing you and our brethren require of vs the things which concerne your saluation out of the holy scripture a firme foundation of faith concerning the Father the Sonne and the holy Spirite and all the rest of the matter of our saluation in Christ to wit of the resurrection of the dead of the comming of the onely begotten in the flesh of the holy Testament both old and new and in briefe of other constitutions pertaining to the perfection of saluation Now we may consider with lesse danger of the place here alleaged wherein that Epiphanius be not misunderstood we must consider that these words Omnia a diuina scriptura accipi non possunt Wee ought to vse traditions because all things cannot be learned out of the holy Scripture must be restrained to the matter in hand for Epiphanius meaneth that the bare letter of this or that scripture doth not afford sufficient helpes to vnderstand it selfe but requireth other meanes for that purpose for thus stand the words Diuina verba speculatione indigent sensu ad cognoscendam vniuscuiusque propositi argumenti vim ac facultatem oportet traditione vti non enim omnia à diuina scriptura accipi possunt c. The words of God haue need of speculation and sense to know the force and power of euerie argument propounded we must also vse tradition because al things cannot be learned out of the holy Scriptures Now by these means he expoundeth a place of Paul to the Corinthians 1. Cor. 7.28 If a Virgine marrie she sinneth not this place saith he is meant of such as had a long time continued Virgines because none in that paucitie of Christians did offer to marrie them and therefore Paul permitteth they should marrie with Iewes and Infidels you haue heard his speculation yea but why may not this place of Paul be meant simply of all Virgines mariageable without exception Epiphanius answereth Tradiderunt sancti Dei Apostoli peccatum esse post decretam virginitatem ad nuptias conuerti The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie You haue heard his Tradition but like speculation like Tradition For it is incredible that the Christians of Corinth had not as many sonnes and daughters as many males as females more incredible that there was such a paucitie of Christians in so populous a Church as the Church of Corinth 2. Cor. 6.14 and most incredible of all that Paul should permit that in his first Epistle which he forbad in his second and so his Speculation faileth him Moreouer it is a fond conceit to think that there were Votaries in Pauls time or that Paul in the seuenth of the first to the Corinths spake not generally of all Virgines but of such as could not get Christian husbands Propter penuriam charitatis so his Tradition is come to nothing No no if there had beene such Nuns at Corinth the Apostle being requested to set downe his iudgment for the direction of Virgins could not possibly forget that principall kinde of Virgines that had most need of direction speak only of some other meaner regard and that in such generall termes without any exception or mention of votall Virgines More ouer Epiphanius fortifieth his tradition out of Paul who saith Iuniores viduas reijce postquā enim lasciuierunt contra Christum nubere volunt habentes iudicuum quod primam fidem reiecerunt The younger widowes refuse for when they haue begun to waxe wanton against Christ they will marrie hauing damnation because they haue reiected the first faith Concluding therof that Virgins are much more to bee blamed than Widowes if they turne back from their purpose of continencie wherfore it is not an vnwritten veritie that Epiphanius obtrudeth vpon vs but a conclusion drawne out of the first to Timothie Cap. 5.11 c. howbeit S. Paul reiecting yong widows frō vowing or promising cōtinencie doth by the same reason reiect yong virgins which be in as great danger of breaking their faith and promise as young widowes and so still we finde that no such votaries were allowed to snare themselues with vowes and religious promises in Pauls time but left free to vse the remedie of marriage according to the ordinance of God But to make short worke whether Epiphanius here speake of written or vnwritten verities yet hee concludeth in the end that it is better euen for Votaries openly to marrie according to the law than to be wounded dayly by the secret darts of concupiscence then which nothing can be more contrarie to the practise and principles of Poperie Touching the confutation of Aerius it stands vpon a tradition of fasting vpon Wednesdaies and Fridayes till night and feeding vpon breed water and salt sixe dayes before Easter which is quite dead long agoe Moreouer Epiphanius opposeth his traditions to matter of faith saying Ecclesia acceptam à patribus veram fidem vsque huc continet itemque traditiones The Church doth still retaine the true faith receceiued from the Fathers and also their Traditions And therefore if Aerius had offended against nothing but Traditions hee had beene sound in the Faith notwithstanding and so no hereticke As for the Booke of the Apostles Constitutions either Epiphanius lost it out of his bosome or it is that which is extant vnder the name of Clemens and condemned longe agoe in the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople Can. 2. yet are these Constitutions allowed for good scripture in the last Canon of the Apostles Lib. 2. cap. 59 Lib. 6. cap. 14 Lib. 2. cap. 63 Lib. 5. cap. 16 which the verie Papists themselues are ashamed of And good reason for they say in one place that Iames the brother of our Lord was not an Apostle and in another place that hee was not an Apostle they say also that the people ought to come together euerie day morning and euening which is no where obserued they say that Iudas was absent when Christ celebrated his last supper which is contrary to the scripture to bee short these Constitutions are so full of errours and falshoods that no honest Christian will father them vppon the Apostles or allowe them for canonicall Scripture The place of Austine which your Papist as a blind man casts his staffe at is in the seuenth Chapter of the second Booke De baptismo contra Donatistas and the wordes bee these Multa non inueniuntur in literis Apostolorū neque in Cōciliis postererū tamē quia custodiuntur per vniuersam ecclesiam non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur Many things are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the Councels of later time yet because they are kept by the whole Church they are
Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b
for first as not to forgiue is as much to say as to punish so to forgiue is as much to say as not to punish in which sence there is forgiuenes in the world to come as well as in this world Secondly Saint Peter saith Act. 3.19 Amend you liues and turne that your sinnes may be done away when the time of refreshing shall come c. that is at the second comming of Christ to restore all thinges where wee learne that our sinnes are compleatly forgiuen till death sinne and hell be fully vanquished and discharged at the last day De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 9. Lastly Bellarmine saith that Mali habitus in vita contracti are taken away per primum actum contrarium animae separatae that is to say a habite of ill doing which grew a long time by many bad actions De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 2. 3. is cleane purged in a moment by one good deede and yet hee holds stiffely against Luther that soules departed can neither mereri nor demereri howbeit here we finde a taking away or forgiuenesse of sinnes in another world without scorching in purgatory by the good deedes of soules departed Now whether these deedes be merita or demerita or what other name it will please him to allow them some of his Popish friends may doe well to resolue vs. The Dialogue Sectio XIIII THus a You speake of more than you haue done or can doe haue I for proofe of this point of Catholicke Doctrine produced against you all the meanes that euer were deuised to conuince an heresie and on the other side you are put to all the shifts that euer hereticke deuised for defence of Heresie from the b The Doctors haue no authoritie or dominion ouer our faith authoritie of Doctors and Fathers and the continuall practise of the vniuersall Church you must appeale vnto Scriptures from Scriptures c VVe make no such appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of d VVe looke not to be saued by Ambrose Aug. and Gregories faith but by our owne Abak Cap. 2.4 Ambrose Austine and Gregorie the Great to the interpretation and deuise of your owne braine as vnto the supreame and onely sufficient Iudge of all controuersies So that I must either discontinue my suit or put the matter to comprimise and make your selfe sole arbitrator which if I should doe and could tell how to propound the case vnto you in such couert maner as the Prophet Nathan did to Dauid I would not doubt but to drawe from you the like sentence as Dauid pronounced against himselfe as for example if I should put your owne case vnto you thus masked and disguised in the habit of a case in law Iohn a Stile seazed of the Manor of Dale wherof he and his Auncestors haue béen quietly possessed time out of minde hath to shew for proofe of his title a record of the Tower dated the first of H. 1. whereby it appeareth that the Conquerour gaue this Land to one of his Auncestors to the same effect he hath also another like record of H. 2. and another of H. 3. Iohn a Noke claymeth an interest in this Land and alleageth for maintenance of his title thereunto that notwithstanding the sayd possession and records the Conqueror did giue no such Mannor vnto the Auncestors of Iohn a Stile and that without a Charter from the Conquerour to be shewed to that effect his interest is neuer the better A faire Charter is produced and acknowledged by the Plaintiffe but he desireth that the true and right interpretation of the words may be taken the interpretation concerning the true meaning and sense of the words deliuered by the reuerend Iudges in a like case long before this controuersie grew is shewed which ouer-ruleth the matter plainely with the Defendant The Plaintiffe replyeth that the Iudges like men did erre in their opinion and that himselfe and some other that claime like interest in the land can giue the right interpretation of the words whereunto he will referre the whole triall of his cause I pray you either tell me who is like to haue best interest to this land or giue mée an d Ye shall haue instaÌ„ces inow looke the answere instance where the cases doe differ The Testimonies of Epiphanius Chrysostome Austine Ambrose who e They affirme it not but you father it vpon them affirme that praier for the dead was a tradition of the Apostles are the records of the Tower the Scriptures the Charter of the Conqueror the interpretation of the sayd Doctors of the place of Saint Paul Cor. 3. the opinion of the Iudges deliuered for the explication of the true sense and meaning of the words of the Charter This case being agréed by our Counsell let it bée mooued at the Checker barre and let my f This should haue been omitted in coÌ„mon discretioÌ„ Lord chéefe Barons opinion therein be a finall end of the controuersie betwéen vs. The Answere HEre our popish Diuine will needs bee a Lawyer and therefore he puts cases against vs but his deuises and producements are too homely to controll a truth and to settle a mans faith and conscience We haue seen what those Fathers and Doctors say and we haue shewed him how vnable they are to beare the burden hee layeth vpon them and therfore he had need to deale couertly by masking and disguising if euer he looke to enioy his Mannor of Dale Howbeit the breake-necke of all is this the cases differ as may bee shewed by many instances First you haue not had quiet possession time out of minde for it was disturbed by Aerius and so along euen to the daies of Luther as Bellarmine confesseth in his Treatise of Purgatorie Secondly the Greeke Church was neuer seased of this mannor Vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est à Graecis creditum Lib. 1. cap. 2. De haeres libr. 8. ca. 1. Euen till this day Purgatorie is not beleeued by the Grecians saith Alphonsus and so saith Roffensis in Polidore de inuentoribus rerum Thirdly the conqueror neuer gaue it by charter but it was taken rather from the paraclete of Mountanus as I shewed before out of Tertullian and so defended afterward by colour of charter Fourthly your Iohn a Stile hath no sufficient record to shew that prayer for the dead is a Tradition of the Apostles Fiftly if that record could be found and were graunted yet that which he claimeth by Charter from the Conquerour will not follow Lib. de fide etâ—per cap. 13. 16. ad Dulcit quaest 1. Esa 53.5 Rom. 8.1 Apoc. 14.13 Eccles 9.6 as hath bene seene alreadie Sixtly the Charter which is shewed is not faire but doubtfull and full of difficulties so saith Austine one of your own iudges Seuenthly there is a fairer Charter to the contrary in Esay Paul and Saint Iohn and Salomon saith plainely that the dead haue no part in the
world of any thing whether it be prayer sacrifice Almes or whatsoeuer else that is done vnder the sunne which cleerely confoundeth Iohn a Stile and all other Iackes that plead for him Lastly the doctors may aduise and giue counsell and plead at the barre but if they presume to sit vpon the bench as iudges 1. Pet. 5.3 2. cor 24. and Lords ouer Gods heritage or hauing dominion ouer their faith then are they traitors against the Conquerour The Dialogue Sectio XV. Transubstantiation NOw followeth Transubstantiation wherein because I haue a You take much vpon you but you performe little taken vpon me to alleage no proofe which may by any glosse or interpretatiō be wrested into another sense there is greater difficultie for what can be deuised to be spoken thereof so perspicuously which by some such shift may not be auoided if the fathers say that the body of Christ after words of consecration is really present that is a figuratiue spéech if they make mention of the vnbloody sacrifice or of the sacrifice of the Altar that is b who makes such an interpretation interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing they could not vse the word Transubstantiation because it was not c The fathers had not the wit to deuise such a trimme word deuised before the Councell of Laterane let vs admit that d One will hardly serue for the vniuersall Church one of the ancient fathers were risen from the dead for to vnfold what his beliefe was and what the vniuersal Church did hold in his time concerning Transubstantiation what should we e Transubstantiation must stand by deuises or els it wil soone fall deuise to demaund of him or what might he deuise to say vnto vs for final determination therof if we should aske whether the very body of Christ be present in the sacrament in forme of bread and he should answere f No father answereth so yea this would not serue but if we should replie thus How can it bée the bodie of Christ Shall I not beléeue mine owne eies which tell me that it is bread if this doctor should g Theodoret Chrysostome Austine Tertul and Ambrose himselfe answere so answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified were not this controuersie cléerely determined on the protestants side Contrariwise If this doctor should answere that God is omnipotent and therefore able to doe what hée will seeme it neuer so contrary to our senses and vnderstanding that he was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and to doe all the great wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt were h No verilie were it not see the answere not the matter as cléerely determined on the Papists side what cauill could you in this case imagine or deuise eftsoones to cal in question what this doctors opinion should be concerning i Transubstantiation wil not come without a better pull transubstantiation will you imagine that he hath spokē al this of Gods omnipotency to proue that he is able to make you k As though there were nothing held by vs but calling naming signifying and figuring cal the signe of the Sacrament by the name of the thing signified or to make bread to be a figure of Christs naturall bodie Pro. When such a doctor shal arise from the dead and so determine of the matter as you haue imagined I will make you answere in the meane time you must giue me leaue with reuerence to thinke that none of the auncient fathers weare so grosse and absurd as to be of your opinion in this point but to admit that such a castle were built in the aire as you haue imagined I must then l Then do you confesse more thē other Protestants will confesse that such a supposed doctor did hold Transubstantiation Pap. This very question was thus asked vrged answered and determined for the Papists by Saint Ambrose when he was liuing and m Non sequitur therefore you must néeds graunt that he did hold Transubstantiation read his booke De ijs quae initiantur mysterijs the Chapter beginneth thus Quomodo tu dicis mihi hoc est corpus Christi aliud video panem video c. How sayest thou that this is the bodie of Christ I doe sée it to be another thing I doe sée that it is bread for answere hereof Saint Ambrose doth alleage that God was able to make heauen and earth of nothing and for the proofe of Gods omnipotent power he repeateth all the wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt as in that Chapter at large appeareth this was n But no doubt it was not but if it were his faith then was it not his opinion no doubt Saint Ambrose his faith in this point and the beliefe and practise of the vniuersall Church in his time for it is not like that so great a doctor did dissent frō the Catholike Church in so materiall a point neither is it o No for they were both Protestants probable that S. Ambrose was a Papist in this opinion S. Austine whom he conuerted to the Christian faith a Protestant The Answere IF your Papist were acquainted with such another as the witch of Endor 1. Sam. 28.7 it seemes he would cause one ancient father or other to be raised vp from the dead to auouch Transubstantiatiō his companions depend vpon the apparitions of soules the speeches of dead corpes dead skuls such like strong illusions as the heathen did vpon their oracles otherwise it would not be so open cleare a matter that Poperie is a doctrine of deuils he hath taken vpon him to alleage such proofe as cannot be wrested by any glosse or interpretation into another sense and therefore being intangled with such a difficultie he thinkes himselfe hardly able to mainetaine his credite without helpe from the dead yet me thinkes a wise man should not measure other mens wits by his owne nor imagine all glosses and interpretations to be in his owne head neuerthelesse I see heere that hee can make glosses of words that were neuer either spoken or written if the fathers say that the bodie of Christ is really present that is a figuratiue speech a figuratiue speech quoth he that must needs be a strange figuratiue speech that was neuer spoken and they be strange fathers that driue vs to shift them of by figures when they say nothing Againe if the fathers mention the vnbloody sacrifice or the sacrifice of the Altar that is interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing heere is a glosse more then needs for if the fathers should so say they hurt not our cause and therefore no reason we should seeke for glosses or interpretations to shift them of Euseb de demonstr euang lib. 1. cap. 10 Sacrificium Altaris Sacrifice of the Altar doth
the contrary Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse much like as with a man that hath lost his way who the more hée bestirreth himselfe the further hee is from the end of his iourney your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles windinges which it can possibly imagine and is now retyred like a crafty foxe into the burrow where it was first littered bredde which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason whereunto as vnto a supreame iudge it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari Roffensis contra captiuit Babiloni i. It cannot be proued by any scripture scriptures fathers and Councels and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme heresye for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust ashes that the Father is God the Sonne God and the holy Ghost God and yet that they thrée are but one God without confounding of the persons that the Sonne is eternall and yet begotten of his father that d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion Christ came in vnto his disciples the e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting what if he came in at the window or chimney or louer hole Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas c vide Durand lib. 4. dist 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut doores being shut not as the Protestants interpret the doores opening vnto him but after a miraculous and supernatural manner as S. Austine expoundeth it Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason as the reall presence in the sacrament if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges might he not with the same reason and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith as you doe the reall presence if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature that as f VVe must needs yeeld if such authors speake against vs. So is not Gods word 2. Tim. 3.16 Psa 119.105 Socrates saith Hoc solum scimus quod nihil scimus this one thing wee doe know that wee doe know nothing how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding the wisedom of man as S. Paul saith is foolishnesse with God and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius who not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten when as there was no time of his begetting chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g That 's not the popish church Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe the catholicke Church and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie than to submit his owne vnderstanding in things aboue vnderstanding vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church the sure rocke and pillar of trueth and whosoeuer he be that in matters of his faith consulteth with flesh and blood measuring the same by rule of humane reason must needs be an hereticke if not an atheist if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament I answere I h No nor any man els liuing cannot tell because it is ineffable neither can I conceiue it because it is incomprehensible if you doe alleage impossibilitie I answere that i So answered Praxeas the hereticke vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible if you require arguments of credibilitie you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith you haue the vniforme consent of the k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say hoc est corpus meum or what other plaine and direct words hath he or any of the greeke churches foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes you haue the vniforme consent practise of the l Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer The Answere OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid but his withered armes could not hurt him hee telleth vs with full mouth and face enough that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation by the consent of all ancient fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church but when all is come to all hee runnes away and leaues this withered conclusion behind him ergo the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse or the Protestants communion I trow such arguments as these may soone bee answered but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued he comes backe againe and intreats him to shut his eies and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason saith he wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie Iohn 20.27 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time should now become a fountaine of heresie our Sauiour saith to Thomas because thou hast seene thou beleeuest and againe put thy finger here and see my hands and put forth thy hand put it into my side and be not faithlesse but beleeue and in another place he saith Luke 24.38 why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my hands and my feete for it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Now I beseech you tell me if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake as it hath an inuisible mouth if Papists may be beleeued and should say to vs why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my forme and colour handle taste and see for the body of Christ is not round white sweete heauie thicke grosse earthie as you taste feele and see me to be Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme No by your leaue answer so who will and who dare this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience and without further trouble of minde or doubt of heart to beleeue that it is very bread and not the body of Christ Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
c. and the other out of Iohn Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatē ordinis ad remittenda peccata Power of order to remit sins Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine or else giue claues iurisdictionis the keyes of iurisdiction onely to Peter and his successors and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis and so consequently he must find other places besides these or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words Iohn 21.15 c. Iohn 20.21 c. Pasce oves meas Feede my sheepe and to the other Apostles in these as my father sent me so send I you and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes yee reteine they are reteined and here note by the way how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem Chiefe power to all his Apostles Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum But with a kind of subiection to Peter As if summa potestas and subiectio could possibly agree together or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest vsed it Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum with a kind of subiection to himself Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames But goe too let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places which he citeth after his owne liking what hath he than to say Marry then I say our sense is more literall then yours well and what saith he else Nay we say that our Sauiour by these words doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes not by their owne power and authoritie but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be Yea but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue Their commission I trow is not vniuersall to all without discretion and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing Papist to Protestant he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest Rom. 9.18 but our master hath mercy on whom he will and whom he will hee hardeneth neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord Rom. 11.33.34 and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable and so this silly papist heere confesseth when he saith that man giueth remission to pretended penitents which God who seeth their hearts doth not ratifie now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad as papists vse it with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners and then iudge whether is most like to be the better And because he bragges of the literrall sense that it makes wholly for him let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture whatsoeuer thou shalt bind whatsoeuer thou shalt loose whosoeuers sinnes yee remit and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent if this cannot be done without a quatefication let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours we preach remission to all that be penitent and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen to the impenitent Rom. 2.8 and such as contentiously disobey the truth wee denounce indignation and wrath Esay 5.14 and so shut heauen open hell wide that their glory their multitude pompe may descend into it neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers Thus saith Tertullian Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores nisi interpretationem legis What keyes had the doctors of the law but the interpretation of the law Thus Ierome Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei testimonijs scripturarum exhortatione virtutū The Apostles doe loose by the word of God and testimonies of the Scriptures and exhortation vnto vertues Thus Ambrose Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei cuius Leuites est interpres Sinnes are remitted by the word of God of which the minister is interpreter Thus Chrysostome Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes quibus creditum est verbum docendi interpretandi scripturas The key-keepers are the Priests vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed But it may be our papist by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth thus hee writes you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine or the conceit of your owne braine and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles and remaining to this day Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe and running ouer for hee might haue left out either vniuersall Church or through the whole world either continued or continuall practise or remaining to this day if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes but is this the comparison he crakes of Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther or Caluine or our owne braine or doe you compare together our faith and yours when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine with the authority of the ancient Fathers Alas good Papist you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers or practise of the Church be it neuer so ancient I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients but vpon the infallible word of God and what should ayle vs that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions and your toppe gallant Church of Rome as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs yet when you haue all done you must giue vs leaue ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe Thus
house of God as for wresting the Scripture when any of you all can iustifie that the most witlesse Puritane in England doth wrest them more violently and ridiculously than your selues then will I be a Protestant no longer You Papists though your brawles bee endlesse one with another Canonists against Schoole-men Franciscans against Dominicks Nominals against Reals Thomas against Lombard Scotus against Thomas Occam against Scotus Alliacensis against Occam Peter Sot against Catharine Catharine against Caietan Caietan against Pighius Iesuites against Priests and Priests against Iesuites yet forsooth these dogs cats are of one Cage they are all members of the Romish Church but Protestants and Puritans being diuers names that differ not in the grounds of faith but in small points as Richard and Thomas or Iohn and Iames doe in colour and complexion and countenance they forsooth cannot bee both members of the same Church But what should I spend time with such a prater as dares face vs out that such a Religion as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before King Edwards time I am sure there is no other Religion established in England but that which is cleerely taught in the word of God brought hether first by Simon a Nicephor lib. 2. cap 4. Zelotes Ioseph b Ghildas of Arimathea Saint c Theodor. de cur graecor affect lib. 9. Paul the Apostle al of them or some of them watred stil on in the daies of d Lib contra Iudaeos Tertullian e In Ezec. ho. 4 Origen f Apolog. secunda Athanasius g Initio lib. de Synod contra Arian Hilarie h Homil. quod Christus sit Deus aduers gentil Chrysostome i Hyst eccles lib. 1. cap. 10. lib. 4. cap. 3 Theodoret all which ancient Fathers speake honourably of the Church and Religion and Prelates of Britaine Now whether this Church and this Religion so planted and so watred were the same that was restored and established in the happy daies of King Edward and Queene Elizabeth both Princes of blessed memorie it is so cleerely decided in the written word of God that the crying and yelling of our forlorne Papists shall neuer be able to perswade the contrarie Yea but Aerius you know as soone as hee denyed prayer for the dead was confuted and the first that impugned the reall presence was condemned in the Councell of Lateran and so were other of your opinion as they sprange vp in later yeeres This man you see will not giue ouer as long as hee can say any thing but goo too let vs not thinke much to answere these triflles Aerius indeed denyed prayer for the dead if Epiphanius mistake not the matter yet I denie that hee vnderstood such kinde of praying for the dead as the Popish Church vseth at this day Papists pray for the release of veniall offences punishable in Purgatorie but Aerius spake against the common errour of his time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 namely that the forgiuenesse of incurable sinnes might bee procured to the dead by the prayers of the liuing if this be heresie then bee you heretickes your selues Touching the reall presence Bertram it is well knowne that Bertram wrote against it without any mans contradiction 400. yeeres before the Counsell of Lateran Aelfricus And so did Aelfricus Archbishop of Canterburie almost 200. yeeres after Bertram in a Sermon which was yeerely read in our Churches at the feast of Easter As for the time that followed in later yeeres after the Lat eran Councell wee say of it Luk. 22.53 as our Sauiour doth of the like time This is your verie houre and the power of darkenesse Thus haue I shewed you briefly but sufficiently when the great compound heresie of Poperie first sprange how it grew peece by peece till Antichrist was disclosed 2. Thes 2.8 I haue told you also how it hath been consumed by the breath of Gods mouth and when it shall be cut downe and wither As for Miracles and Martyrs Cath. 7.22 24 24. 2. Thes 2.9 Apoc. 16.14 the one prooueth you to bee th◠brood of Antichrist of whose lying wonders the scripture hath foretold vs the other namely Gods Martyrs they crie out for vengeance against blood-suckers for so we are taught in the Reuelation and such blood-suckers are you and haue euer beene as Master Foxe hath most truely set it downe to your euerlasting shame and confusion such Miracles as yours bee wee can shew none neither can wee make Martyrs as you can God giue vs all grace to keepe that way and path that leadeth and directeth to the Kingdome of heauen and graunt vs rather good Bishops without succession than succession without good Bishops that all of vs both Bishops and people high and low rich and poore one with another may glorifie God the Father of our lord Iesus Christ So be it Ierem. Cap. 49.10 I haue discouered Esau I haue vncouered his secrets and he shall not be able to hide himselfe Tertul. de prescript aduersus heretic Haereses de quorundam infirmitatibus habent quod valent nihil valentes si in bene valentem fidem incurrant Paraeneticum carmen Authoris ad Magistrum I. S. SI cupis ad superos per inania tecta domorum Altius horrendo scandere cum sonitu Consule Papistas hominum immanissima mōstra Qui scandendi alium non didicêre modum O scelus infandum nùm crudo sanguine pascit Italus ille suas Pontificaster oues Siccine pascendum vasto Polyphemus in antro Eructans saniem quam bibit ante docet Siccine scandendū ad superos docet vncta meretrix Quae tota innocuo mersa cruore rubet O fuge quid cessas meretricia desere castra Scandendique nouam disce tenere viam Eiusdem conclusio ad D. Doctorem Grimston medicum praestantissimum SI quid in hoc fuerit lectoribus vtile libro Non mihi sed cutae gratia danda tuae Et liber libri dominus paulò ante redemptus Libertus tuus est desijt esse suus Mortis serua tuo fit libera vita labore Libera vita tuo facta labore tua est Viuo igitur viuoque tuus viuamque per omnem Quam dederas vitam seu tua seu mea sit FINIS
so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from