evince the Esse and you denye the Posse to cleare the certayntie of both But I see whither you tende for you come now to vnder-proppe your declyning CONTINVANCE vvith as weake a Warrand of VISIBILITIE vvhich is your Man's next Marke which I haue all-readie so marred with that which hath bene sayd to CONTINVANCE as I shall haue but small a doe to hogh the Proppe that so both may tumble downe in the Dust to-gether Eriphilus I pray you Philomathes goe forward to the Marke of VISIBILITIE vvhich in the Continuance of the Church commeth most fitlie to bee considered And this Marke shall best cleare our Church and make Eubulus to bee seene in all his Subtilties For so shall a Church bee found to haue continued if shee hath continued visible And you will perceiue Eubulus so pintched with this Note as he will vanish away in his Invisibilitie and will giue vs a Church continuing for-sooth a thousand yeares by miere imagination Eubulus If I did so farre distrust our Cause Eriphilus as that I would there-fore seeke to escape by Subtilties why would I haue suffered my selfe and that vnnecessarilie to bee drawne a-side by you to so ydle a Disputation about that where-of it is shame for anie resolved Christian once to make question For how-so-ever that for Philomathes better satisfaction I was and am contented to deale thus yet what a senselesse thing in effect is this That the Trueth of GOD so clearlie revealed and which by anie having Spirituall Eyes is as easilie discerned from Errour as Light is from Darknesse for Man's vayne humour should bee put to this forme and Rule of Tryall That except it may bee cleared where and with whome it hath visiblie continued wee will prowdlie and rebelliouslie reject it Which is no lesse yea much more both ridiculous and vnjust than if the Sunne long lapped vp vnder Clowdes and there-after breaking foorth brightlie should therefore by Dolts bee denyed to bee the true Sunne and that it were but some Counterfeyâ—… and never-before-seene Comet Because for-sooth their weake Eyes had not continuallie perceived all the particular progresse of it VVhereas in anie true Sparkle of a Godlie and Christian Disposition and right Spirituall Wisdome wee should thus reason This is evidentlie the Trueth of GOD and there-fore how-so-ever it hath not appeared to continue or keepe place yet I am certayne that it hath never all-to-gether fayled from amongst GOD His Children An dt his is Haeresie There-fore howe great place so-ever it hath had or how long so-ever it hath borne swey even in the Holie Citie and Court of the Temple yet it is clearlie to bee casten out And in the beginning of our Dispute I layde such Groundes of the Evidencie and Sufficiencie of Holie Scripture for full Resolution in these Poyntes as I might well anough haue excused my selfe from diverting thus vaynlie with you to these Questions eyther of Continuance or Visibilitie if I were in anie such perill by your Praerogatiues in them as you praesume But this cleareth you Eriphilus that you are now come to your strongest piece for anie feare where-of I will not yet so farre vanish as you wiene But even dismasking your Man of this vayne and so-much-vaunted-of Visard of Visibilitie I will GOD willing show him in discerning of GOD His Church to bee visiblie blynde and will not giue you a Church by imagination but continuing all-wayes reallie and visible though not to Mules Philomathes Verilie you make mee though not to vanish yet to wonder at a little That you confesse the true Church to haue beene all-wayes visible and will make me wonder yet more if you performe what you promise For I ever imagined that all your Defence in this Poynt had beene to clayme vnto the Invisibilitie of the Church But you haue sharpened mine Appetite to heare you of this Matter Thus then our Poet speaketh of this Marke CHAPTER V. VISIBLE THis is another Marke most cleare The Church of God must still appeare As a Citie vpon an Hill Shyne and continue still As a light on a Candle-sticke Such is the Church Catholicke Our Saviour sayeth If one offend And will not bee ruled by his Friend Tell the Church without delay And if hee will not then obey Doe thou esteeme such a man An Heathen or a Publicane Is not this the Church where-in wee see Two hundreth Bishops thirtie three To haue succeeded each other Since the tyme of Saynct Peter Shew mee this Marke in you And I will say your Fayth is true If it bee not the Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus This is your Man's third Marke and which you haue brought to beare vp your decaying CONTINVANCE But I say Philomathes that no more can VISIBILITIE bee a proper Marke of the Church than could CONTINVANCE for it is a common accident of all visible creatures So as al-be-it I should yeelde as much of Visibilitie as I confessed of Continuance yet would it but serue for a Negatiue Conclusion agaynst others but for no Affirmatiue Demonstration of your owne Church And thus still thorow all your Man's mayne Proposition prooveth vayne Philomathes I must confesse that Visibilitie no more than Continuance is a proper Note of the Church For you haue clearlie evinced it Yet as out of our Man I framed an Argument before vpon Continuance so nowe I will from Visibilitie even a common Accident as you call it conclude not onlie negatiuelie agaynst your Church but affirmatiuelie of the Church of Rome And I reason thus The Church of CHRIST is al-wayes visible But for manie Ages no Church was visible but the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is the onlie Church of CHRIST Eubulus Such an affirmatiue Conclusion jumpe as was your former vpon CONTINVANCE by a deceiving consequence vpon the presumed Defectes of others Which as it beguiled you in your CONTINVANCE so will it fayle you here also for it is the verie same And as I so over-threw your Argument from CONTINVANCE that you were fayne to flee to Visibilitie for succour so will I make now the weaknesse of this your Reason from Visibilitie not only visible but even palpable also Where-in yet I will not waste tyme to show how ridiculouslie vainlie and impertinentlie hee laboureth to prooue the Proposition of this his Syllogisme That hath beene oftener showed than hee hath syllables in his Proper Ballad neyther will I insist to expose his follie in bringing bare personall Succession and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principall and proper succession and but of one particular Church as if it had fayled in all other Churches for stablishing of his Assumption What is true Succession and who are true Successours and how vnjustlie eyther are appropriated or attributed to Rome I haue cleared else-where I come to the point it selfe whereof al-be-it I haue alreadie written at such length as I might bee well excused to referre you
Syrope Philadelphus is little lesse vnpleasant than your Potion so as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe other-wayes of Patience But leaving this I will turne mee agayne to Eubulus who gaue the Wound which you well satyricklie haue rankled You remember Eubulus that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse of HAERETICKES in this mayne Syllogisme To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in whom are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church they must of necessitie bee baereticall But to the Protestant Churches the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in them are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church There-fore the Protestant Churches are haereticall The Proposition of this Argument you admitted To the first part of the Assumption as touching the Notes of Haeretickes you haue so answered that labouring to cleare your selues you haue layde over well sadlie that Imputation vpon our Church Nowe then all-be-it wee haue the longer but the lesse Esperance of prevayling yet seeing this other poynt concerning the Defectes found in you or affirmed of you resteth nowe onelie of all our Man's Poēsie to bee spoken of I would heare your Aunsweres all-so vnto his Interrogatours there-vpon Eubulus Of this Philomathes I will acquyte my selfe with small a-doe for that all-most all the Defectes objected vnto vs are vpon your Poet 's praesumed Opinion That wee want those Markes where-of hath beene spoken So as anie sensible Man in that which wee haue all-readie sayde shall finde all his subsequent Questions sufficientlie aunswered Besides that else-where I haue aunswered them at such length as my Discourse heere may bee the shorter and you yet aboundantlie satisfied if not with that which I now say yet with easie paynes to reade mine other TREATISES Nowe then reade foorth in order your Man's Questions Philomathes I will both gladlie heare what you shall now say and will not wearie al-so to reade what else-where you haue written These now are the Questions You say your Fayth did appeare For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare But tell mee if thou can When Papistrie first began Where were the Servants of the LORD That none of them durst speake a word To defend the knowne Trueth ************** Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Did the Salt lose its savour Was the Bryde out of favour Was the Pillar over-throwne By vvhich all Trueth vvas to bee knowne By this thou vvouldst prooue playne All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne Sea Heavens and Earth shall passe in-deede But of this Word no jot vvee reade Where haue you beene so long a tyme To vvhom did your Light shyne Where did your principall Pastor sit Who kept your Keyes vvho fed your Sheepe Show mee some Church that you haue built I can shew manie that you haue spilt Were all damned eternallie Who vvere not of your Companie How might a Man haue found you out To haue tryall in matters of doubt When no such Companie did appeare For so manie hundreth Yeare Till LUTHER a lying Frier On vvhom the Devill ◅ad desire Brake his Vow and married a Nun And then your Haeresie first begun And favoured in SAXONIE By a Duke that loved Libertie And in King EDWARD'S tyme truelie It first infected our Countrey For a thousand yeares you say That Papistrie did beare the sway And during all that space No Protestant did show his Face Who kept the holie Scripture then From the hands of wicked men Who had Authoritie to ordayne Or make Priests or Bishops agayne For hee that entereth without order As a Thiefe doth kill and murder Hee is a Wolfe and not a Priest And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST And one thing doth make mee muze That no Priest you did refuse Ordayned by the Church of Rome But hee was excepted soone If hee would say your Service Hee should haue a Benefice Without anie farder Order And accounted for the Better How may shee make a lawfull Priest If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST Answere this if that thou can And I will bee a Protestan But while your Answere you devyse I counsell all Men that bee wyse To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere The space of a thousand Yeare Brought to vs English-men By our Apostle Sainct Austine Who from Rome vvas hither sent When EDWARD vvas King of KENT Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie ◅ Which Fayth vvas kept successiuelie By three-score Bishops and three From Saynct Peter's tyme vvee see Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU Who is the Sonne of GOD most true To HIM bee all Honour and Prayse Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes Eubulus You may perceiue Philomathes the trueth of that which I sayde vnto you that all these yourman's questions are coincident with the cases of Continuance Visibilitie wherof we haue spoken except that in end for giving vs a deadly blow in his conceit he close all vp with the question of our Callings And to make cleare to you how your man multiplieth words in vayne without knowledge I reduce all his impertinent pratling to this mayne Argument If things affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certaine condition thereby and if you are forced to acknowledge of the Church of Rome that which can not bee competent to anie Companie but to CHRIST'S Church then are your Churches Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST But the thinges affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certayne Condition there-by and that which you grant of the Church of Rome is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church There-fore your Churches are Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST Philomathes Verilie our Poet if hee were even heere present could alleadge no Prevarication on you in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse And if you shall answere to it as clearlie and ingeniouslie as you haue ingeniouslie propounded it vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours Eubulus The Proposition of his Argument is true but his Assumption is extreamlie false where-of hee laboureth to fortifie the first part touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches thus The Promise of CHRIST to His Church is That Peter's fayth shall never fayle that The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her that The Salt shall not lose its savour that The Bryde shall not bee out of favour that The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth c. and According to this Promise the certayne Condition of the Church is That Shee al-wayes continueth and is visible But by these things which you affirme of your Churches Peter's Fayth should haue fayled The Gates of Hell should haue prevayled the Salt should haue lost its savour the Spouse should haue beene out of favour the Pillar should haue beene over-throwne and the Church of
hee hath so bewitched the miscarried fansie of Philadelphus that hee maketh no small account of his fellowship yea even my Lord his Father and my Ladie his Mother carrie him no lesse reverence and loue than if he were forsooth a person of some worth Philomathes And is this indeede Eubulus verilie I am glad I haue the occasion to see him for hee hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man and that hee hath some good Gift in teaching and I haue much longed to heare him Eriphilus What! Philomathes doe you account it a lawfull thing to heare anie of these Heretickes This Eubulus I tell you is an Oratour and can perswade foolish people to wiene much of him And I will not denie but he hath some piece of prudent and faire Carriage but Catholickes ought so much the more to shunne his fellowship lest they bee deceived with Showes Philomathes Verelie Eriphilus I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this for al-be-it I mislike their Church yet I haue heard some of their Preachers speake both powerfullie and holilie so as I can not denie but I haue beene some-times both instructed and edified by them And if wee will lay aside Passion and Praejudice wee must acknowledge that there bee some of them who are both excellentlie learned and exemplarlie holie men And thus much haue I gained by hearing of them that certainlie I perceiue our Writers to lay against them manie vnjust imputations so to make their doctrine odious as if they did maintaine things where-of I haue often heard them teach the contrarie And for mee I never can approoue that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies Eriphilus To speake plainlie to you Philomathes I thinke you are little from halting betwixt two and I can not account him a true Catholicke who will either heare or in anie thing approoue such Heretickes or will so much as once call in question what-so-ever the Church enjoyneth Philomathes I will beare with you to judge of mee as you please but I both am a true Catholicke and doe reverence the Church yet without light indifferentlie to embrace all things I thinke it not onelie brutish but also vnlawfull for Christians who haue to try what they holde And verilie saving the judgement of holie Church that opinion of implicite Faith hath both much disgraced the Catholicke Cause and hath made our Doctrine to bee suspected of maniâ—… But it is high time for vs to salute these Gentle-men CHAPTER II. Philomathes GOD saue you Masters Philadelphus GOD saue you Philomathes and you Eriphilus Doe your Effaires lye this way Eriphilus This same is our way and though it were not yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy so as if it bee not displeasant vnto you wee will for a space keepe you companie Philadelphus Your companie is to vs verie acceptable Eriphilus But I pray you good Sir was it not the Minister Theriomachus who a little hence did part from you Philadelphus You haue judged rightlie Eriphilus And how falleth it for all his Clergie that now in almost halfe a yeare hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper which yet hee received with no small presumption that how-so-ever Pitch was defiling yet hee reâ—…mbled an hote Tongs which could contract no Contagion there-by Philadelphus By what Logicke will you inferre Eriphilus because hee hath made no Answere there-to that therefore hee could finde none to giue it Know you not that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere And yet how are you bolde to affirme hee hath not answered it Haue you heard all the Conference hee ever had with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper since the time hee received it Hee hath written nothing there-to you will say But from the defect of a written Answere to conclude of no answere at all it is an halting argumentation And haâ—… honest men thinke you who are busied in their publicke Callings nothing else a-doe but to waste time and travell in intertaining Plea with Contentions and ydle humours vpon everie pievish Pamphlet put out by them of thinges a thousand times refuted To answere ought is but a labour bootlesse When curious Questions are in pryde proposed On Soules fore-stall'd all travell tane is fruitlesse For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed Manie protest them vprightlie disposed Singlie to search and receiue Institution Who yet keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed Which barreth out all better Resolution Who with him-selfe concludes sine counsell craveth According to his Idoles hee receiveth Philomathes You haue set downe in your Sonnet a most certaine trueth For my selfe I protest I ever abhorred all contention and bitternesse in disputing And who for anie other ende maintaine Argument but in an vpright and calme care to finde out Trueth they are both displeasant to others and vnprofitable to themselues But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter and wee haue so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie and the time shall bee so well spent I would intreat Eubulus that if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions hee will vouchsafe to speake it and this I protest I require in vprightnesse because I doe thinke there bee diverse of them to which hardlie shall hee finde anie good answere Eubulus I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie but I hate contention and if you Philomathes jumpe with mee in this humour I will obey your request the more gladlie and I hope our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse Haue you then these Questions by you and if not I can perhaps supplie your want Philomathes I haue them heere and will reade them to yoâ—… in order yet I am glad that you haue alreadie seene them for you may answere the more resolutelie to each This then is the Inscription A proper new Ballad where-in is contained Catholicke Questions to the Protestant Eriphilus I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it How say you then Philadelphus is it not indeede a proper Ballad Philadelhpus How proper his Ballad is let poëts judge Out of my little skill I may boldlie affirme that for anie either grace it bringeth to his Arte or credite to his Cause hee might right well haue contented him-selfe to speake in Prose but his forme is good aneugh for his matter and hee is I warrand you no worse Poët than hee prooveth evidentlie a weake Divine Reason and Ryme if sweetlie they bee sembled Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression Quicke Arguments with Eloquence enaembled Draw contrare Myndes more quicklie to Confession But of true Fayth if vnder false Profession Songs bee made Syropes but to sweeten Errours Prudence will spye and keepe of Trueth possession Vnsnar'd with Syrens or yet tost with Terrours But that 's soone seene which wants both Sause Season Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason Eriphilus It is by evincing Syllogismes I trow and not by invectiue Sonnets Philadelphus that
true Church and the Synagogue of Satan calling themselues Iewes and yet are not And who for concluding of this would bring the common notes of that hee were a doting Divine and a no lesse ridiculous Logician than hee who for discerning a man from a beast would bring the common properties of a living creature for how-so-ever the common notes of Christians good or bad of Orthodox or Heretickes of CHRIST or Antichrist will distinguish the common bodie in which all these are from Forraigners yet to discerne betwixt the true bodie and the inherent evill betwixt lawfull and adulterous worship betwixt the Bryde and the pretending Whoore both of them in though not both of the bodie there is none other sure note or marke of discretion but the Scriptures onlie When you shall see sayeth Chrysostome vngodlie Heresie which iâ—… the Armie of Antichrist standing in the holie places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the Mountainest that is they who are of Christianitie dresse them-selues to the Scriptures because from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie neyther anie other refuge for Christians willing to know the veritie of the Fayth but the divine Scriptures And in that same place Before manie wayes were shewed which was the Church of CHRIST but now no manner of way hut by the Scriptures For sayeth the same Chrysostome or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew if men looke to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall there-by in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holie places of the Church Wee thinke it not equitable sayth Basilius that such custome of speach as hath taken place with them should bee helde for a Law and Canon of right Doctrine for if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine wee might also imitate them heere-in Let vs stand therefore to the decision of Scripture inspyred from GOD and with whome are found heades of Doctrine consonant to the divine Oracles let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them Non oportet sayeth Ireneus quaerere apud alios veritatem cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis that is Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie as in a rich Store-house put together all thinges that belong to Trueth Non haec autilla sayeth Augustine alteri parti suspecta objiciantur sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae that is Let not such things bee objected as are suspected of eyther partie but let the common Armour the Scriptures bee taken I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse Philomathes in making so great a Question how Trueth and the true Church may bee discerned from Lies and hereticall companies bewrayeth evidentlie what vpright affection hee hath eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe or to leade others there-in Philomathes When all that you haue sayde is granted so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe which heare CHRIST His voyce but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures yet the Question remaineth vnsolved For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them And this was not obscurelie implyed in the Question in that all rehearse the common Creede so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you which will rid the Debate Eubulus To this I answere First al-be-it all pretende Scripture yet all pretende not Scripture onlie which both by Scripture and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie I haue prooved in the Case heere questioned to bee the onelie Rule for your Church of Rome joyneth and equalleth with Scripture her owne Canons and Traditions and there-by declareth evidentlie all her worship to bee vaine Hoc nimis doleo sayeth Augustine quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt minus curantur tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit that is I much lament for that manie thinges which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written are little regarded and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions as he is more grievouslie punished who neglecteth those humane Traditions than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation for those small beginnings in comparison which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie at that time not so farre as yet advanced had come to what had beene the measure of his griefe if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie Eriphilus What Eubulus will you make vs therefore to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S because wee heare the voyce of the Church Is not the voyce of the Church CHRIST'S owne voyce sayeth Hee not in Scripture Hee who heareth you heareth Mee and bee who despyseth you despyseth Mee Eubulus Too great heate Eriphilus maketh you to over-reach your selfe and so to stumble both in Logicke and in Divinitie Your Errour in Logicke is that you take that for an Argument which is the verie Poynt in Question All our Dispute is what Companie of so manie Acclaimers is the true Church of CHRIST In this Question proponed to vs by your Poët wee are come thus farre That who heare CHRIST'S voyce and His voyce onlie Wee haue layde also this ground That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce Vpon which ground I challenged your Church as adding to her owne Now here for your defence that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce and that even by Scripture you assume that you are the Church and where the Sheepe are to bee tryed by the voyce which they doe heare you will therefore justifie the voyce because you forsooth doe heare it And by such Logicke as this what may you not conclude You might with more credite tell vs in plaine Tearmes That you will not haue it put in question but that you are the Church than appeare to put that poynt in tryall and incontinent to take it for a Principle which is the verie Poynt controverted Now as this is your fault in Logicke and that exceeding chyldish so in Divinitie you misse and more dangerouslie Because the LORD affirmeth That who heareth the Church heareth Him and who despyseth them despyseth Him if Pastours vnder the pretext of this Power should presume absolutelie to impose on Consciences what they please binding Christians indifferentlie without proving to admit all it were an impudent yea an impious vsurpation For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition That Pastours speake nothing but the wordes of the Great Shepheard For the words of
or in another consideration wee call the Catholicke Church all of all Kinreds Tongues and Nations who vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession giue their names to CHRIST and are in the count of His House heere whether they bee onlie in it or also of it or to speake improperlie as in some Cases the Fathers doe the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church holding Trueth in relation to Declyners there-from But your Poet appropriating this Title to the first Converters hath forfaulted from this Dignitie all the Converted by them And thus his Proposition is not onlie false but even ridiculous For how-so-ever the Converters of others by an improper Speach may be called Catholicks as anie particular Church holding Trueth is called a Catholicke Church or anie faithfull Man a Catholicke man because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church in which onlie is Trueth Lyfe and Salvation yet to call anie particular eyther person order of persons or companie the Catholicke man persons or Church it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach His Assumption I distinguish If hee affirme That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth and was the first publisher of the Gospell it is so shameleslie false as I thinke Satan might blush to broach out such a Lie How did Paul glorie in the LORD and that before hee did see Rome that from Arabia to Illyricum he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST and that most part where CHRIST had not beene named not building on anie other man's foundation Haue all the other eleven Apostles besides Peter forgotten thinke you their LORD's Commission of whom wee haue no certayne record that ever anie did see Rome If converting Nations to the Fayth might appropriate to anie Church downe of the same But no Companie offereth to GOD a cleane Sacrifice from the rysing of the Sunne to the setting of the same but the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is onlie and properlie the Catholicke Church The Proposition of this his Syllogisme hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie His Assumption hee prooveth stronglie for-sooth by an vndenyable Trueth That Onelie the Church of Rome offereth all-where the holie Sacrifice of the Messe Which hee maketh no question but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice offered to GOD all-where from the rysing to the setting of the Sunne And thus hee thinketh his Conclusion can not fayle him Eriphilus And so I thinke also Eubulus and I hope shall thinke so still for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto how-so-ever you would seeme for-sooth to make a verie light account of it and would according to your manner laugh-over those Argumentes which most pintch you Eubulus Then advert what I haue to say and thinke syne what you please The Condition of CHRIST His Church set downe by Malachie whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition I acknowledge according to the Prophet his sense and wordes which your man Eriphilus resumeth deceitfullie The wordes are these From the ◅sing of the Sunne to the going downe there-of My Name shall bee great amongst the Gentiles and in all places Incense shall bee brought to My Name and a cleane Gift These cleare and distinct wordes eyther ignorantlie or fraudfullie your man obscureth perverteth and involveth to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices or Sacrifices for sinne and other Oblations of Prayse or due Worship vvhich both in their diverse Types are most distinctlie put and in the Anagogicke Veritie must bee diverselie considered And this your man doeth to bring some Colour to his Assumption which is impudentlie false Neyther will the Offering of your Messe which is neyther cleane holie nor a Sacrifice but a most sacrilegious prophanation of an holie Sacrament and the moste detestable Idolatrie that ever was defended for good Worship appropriate to Rome the Offring all-where of Incense and a cleane Gift to the LORD Are you so shallow a Man in Scripture Eriphilus that you know not how all true Christians anie-where beeing made Kinges and Priestes to GOD in CHRIST doe offer vp to Him the Sacrifices of Prayse even the Calues of the Lippes Doe wee not offer vp our selues an holie living acceptable Sacrifice even our reasonable Service What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee in the feare and loue of GOD performe are they not Sacrifices and accepted in CHRIST To doe good and to distribute forget not for with such Sacrifices GOD is well pleased sayeth the Apostle Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians by the same Apostle called A Sacrifice of sweet Savour and acceptable to GOD Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice when so doltishlie hee forgot him-selfe as to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church but his monstrous Messe As for anie other Sacrifice for sinne but that one and once for all offered wee acknowledge not So as your Messe may be well relegated to sicke Swyne for whom vpon conveaned pryce your Men haue mumbled out a million Now as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices and also that hee acknowledgeth not with cleare Scripture anie other cleane Oblation in the Christian Church but the Mischiefe of the Messe So hee illudeth more-over by reasoning from Sacrifice and Oblation figuratiuelie and allegoricallie spoken of to Sacrifice and Oblation in proprietie of signification from typicall speaches concluding not allegoricallie but properlie and that most ignorantlie foolishlie The Prophets fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome doe ordinarilie expresse the Condition thereof vnder Legall Types where-by it was fore-shadowed Which is so evident in all their manner of Dispensation as it is marvell if anie dare pretende to misknow it Speaking of the Conversion of Nations a◅d of their Association to the Church they prophecie That all Nations shall come yearlie and worship at HIERUSALEM Which to vnderstand properlie it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie For expressing of the great measure of Light and Knowledge vnder the Gospell they prophecie That all men shall see Visions and dreame Dreames to declare that the Worship of GOD shall bee no more tyed to anie one place but that all-where who worship Him in Spirit and Trueth shall bee accepted Isaia telleth of three Altars to bee erected one in Iudea one in Assyria and one in Aegypt And thus to show how the worship of GOD should bee no more confined within the Iewish natiō or precinct of Canaan Malacbie fore-telleth That Incense and a cleane Gift shall bee offered in all places and that the Name of the LORD shall bee great from the rysing of the Sunne to the going-downe there-of And howe will you out of this make your monstrous Messe or out of your Messe make the miserable Mongers there-of to bee the Catholicke Church except first you make Mules of Men Or is there anie eyther Shame or Sinceritie in disputing when vpon typicall Praedictions Conclusions are inferred
Continuance could not bee sayde of the Church Semper that is at all tymes For at the first moment of Adam and Evaes Creation who were the Church Continuance of them then had bene no true Predication when as yet no tyme had run Besides what-so-ever is a proper Note it is so converted with the subject where-of it is the propertie as that if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church then as none could be the Church but which had continued and did still continue so what-so-ever did continue behooved to bee the Church which you see were extreamlie absurd For Heaven and Earth continue to this day Satan continueth a Liar and a Murtherer from the beginning and his Children continue Liars and Murtherers lyke their Father and the evill Seed continueth even amidst the good Seede in the Lord 's owne Fielde till the last day of separation So as if with anie probable shew your man would had CONTINVANCE counted a concluding Marke of the Church hee should haue added there-to this Modification That what companie hath continued in the true Fayth and Worship of CHRIST that is His true Church But then if hee should assume that the Church of Rome hath onlie continued in the true Fayth and lawfull Worship of CHRIST wee will denye it as extreamlie false and tell him that hee continueth impudent to assume the Question And thus you may perceiue Philomathes that your man's most lykelie Marks yet are no proper Markes till they bee modified by that one and onelie demonstratiue and truelie discretiue Marke which at first I layde downe vnto you Philomathes But Eubulus you must not escape vs at so cheape a rate For even vpon CONTINVANCE a common accident as you call it I will establish our man's conclusion for the Church of Rome You will confesse that the Church of CHRIST hath continued al-wayes since her first beginning and must al-wayes continue till her LORD'S returne so as shee can never fall away absolutelie from His Light and Lyfe Eubulus This I heartilie yeelde you Philomathes You will yeelde mee this also That no companie can be sayd to continue in the Trueth Light and Lyfe of CHRIST which continueth not in anie profession of His Name or worship there-of at all For to vse your owne comparison al-be-it Colour and Stature will not conclude of the thing coloured and quantified that it is a man yet this will bee a sure Position That what hath neyther Colour nor Stature at all it can bee no man Eubulus This I yeelde you also but where-vpon you may see that your conclusion shall bee but negatiue to exclude vpon defects not affirmatiue to argue vpon demonstratiue Markes Philomathes Then advert how I will even affirmatiuelie conclude for the Church of Rome That Companie hath onlie cōtinued in the true Light and Lyfe of CHRIST and so is His Church which onelie of all others hath retayned HIS Name or anie Worship there-of But for manie Ages the Church of Rome hath onlie of all Companies in the Worlde retayned the Name of CHRIST or anie Worship there-of There-fore the Church of Rome hath onlie continued in the true Light and Lyfe of CHRIST and so onlie is His true Church Eriphilus You finde perhaps Eubulus that our Syllogismes are poynted also Eubulus I will presentlie prooue what eyther Poynt or Edge it hath and how piercing so-ever you presume it to bee Eriphilus yet make it to bee found as phlegmaticke as you are cholericke Of your Syllogisme then Philomathes where-by you conclude no thing to Romes advantage if any other Churches may bee shewed to haue continued in anie Profession or Worship of the Name of CHRIST I grant the Proposition to bee true for no question but that onlie with-in the compasse of the visible Church and vnder the common Ensigne of Profession the true Church and all true Christians are and haue continued al-wayes And as where-ever the Ensigne is and the Name of CHRIST professed how corruptedlie so-ever it bee in common yet there possiblie yea probablie I durst say assuredlie are some true though weake Christians So where that Name is not at all named nor anie worship there-of there no Church can bee sayde to bee at all Your Assumption is both false and deceitfull And to shew it evidentlie to bee such if I should but oppose to you the Aethiopian and Indian Churches which haue continued and not onelie without anie Communion but al-most without anie knowledge of the Church of Rome what could you finde to say against these Instances but I will bee so indulgent vnto you as not to vrge them on you I will other-wayes sufficientlie so discover the deceit of your Assumption as the falsehood of it may bee clearlie seene for it contayneth a double fallacie one in the name of the Church of Rome the other in that which is affirmed of it For if by the Church of Rome bee vnderstood the whole bodie of the visible Church on which for some Ages by craft and ambitious vsurpation of Antichrist in-throned in the Temple the Character Name or Number of the Beast were imposed in common how-so-ever thousands ever were in that communitie who rejecting and detesting them retained the Name of the Lambe His Father and Character there-of and were of the 144000 sealed ones and manie who in simplicitie received the Name or Number of the Beast yet never received his Character Then sophisticallie and deceitfullie you reason from the accressing Sore and Gangrene in the bodie and of which Sore the name is but improperlie and tyrannicallie imposed on the bodie to the bodie affected there-with When wee pleade agaynst the Church of Rome wee pleade not against that bodie absolutelie where-in that evill was and that so farre obtaining as it named the bodie after it selfe while the Church of GOD dwelt even where Satan's Throne was but wee pleade agaynst the evill in but not of the bodie not agaynst all who were called the Romane Church or Papists or were counted of that number But agaynst Papalitie or Antichristianisme Not agaynst all who were thorow common Contagion perhaps lightlie touched or taynted with the Evill But agaynst the Characterized companie Antichrist his mancipated Slaues and in whom the pestilent Evill had eaten vp all true lyfe and sense So as in this Case for arrogating anie poynt to the Mischiefe which wee oppugne to oppose vnto vs the common bodie even heavilie affected and in common over-gone with it it is no lesse absurd sophistication than if one should confound the Dropsie Iaundies or Gangrene in the Bodie with the Bodie in which they are and drawe Conclusions from the one to the other If all the Bodie were the Evill then were there no Bodie But even a sicke Bodie is yet a Bodie and how-so-ever so affected in common and no part appeareth to be fullie free but that the Sore possesseth all yet so long as the Bodie liveth and mooveth performing naturall Functions it evinceth
that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease so as the Bodie al-be-it heavilie affected yet dieth not yea getting the true Medicine and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit will expell the Evill and notiue Humour and recover Health as Experience hath prooved clearlie in manie Reformed both Churches and Persons Thus Philomathes if in your Assumption you meane by the Church that whole Bodie absolutelie on which that Name was fraudfullie and tyrannicallie imposed then you conclude not your Poynt but deceiue by Aequivocation A dici ad esse from So called and wronglie called to So is confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where-of I spake before And if by the Church of Rome you signifie the Papalitie and Evill in the Bodie which wee impugne as you must if you evince ought agaynst vs then is your Assumption clearlie false For both before that Evill invaded the Bodie the Bodie was and even at the tyme of the waxing Sore yet still continued brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense and Lyfe and now at last by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word and Spirit is recovering Health and destroying the formerlie destroying Disease This will bee yet more cleare by the discoverie of that other Fallacie where-by in this Case of the Churches continuance your Men partlie illude and partlie are illuded For because the Church continueth al-wayes they esteeme and conclude falselie That there-fore shee continueth still in one and the same Condition of Light and Lyfe that is That Trueth and lawfull Worship hath al-wayes helde place and borne swey there-in in common so as what-so-ever Companie or Doctrine most in common obtayned and carried Vogue that was the true Church of CHRIST and the true and Orthodox Fayth And this is most absurdly false and evinced to be so not onlie by evident Experience but also by cleare Scripture For all 〈◊〉 Church Trueth in her hath continued alwayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings Victories Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses Shee is some-tyme darkened sayth Augustine and is as it were over-clowded with multitude of Offences some-tyme by tranquillitie of tyme quyet free she showeth her selfe some-tyme is covered and troubled with the waues of tribulations and tentations We confesse that the Church hath continued always but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth I sit being a Queene shall see no mourning but oft-tymes afflicted tossed with tempest having no comforter She hath still continued but as a Woman even at first while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne traveling and crying out with payne next persecuted cruellie thirdly fleeing to the Wildernesse fourthly lurking and fed there while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him by false pretence of the Lambe's horns She hath coÌ„tinued alwayes yet so as sometime while the Earth Sea Fountayns Rivers Starres Sun Moone are eyther first in a great part burnt corrupted made bitter eclypsed or totally at last darkened she consisted of a few secret sealed ones exempted in GOD'S merciful care froÌ„ a common evill Sometime againe she is of a number innumerable with Palms in haÌ„d Her state hath bene sometime as the temple closed in relation to al the holy citie court of the teÌ„ple trodden vnder foot of the Heathen her Pastours some-time few secret ministring within the Temple in sorrow for prevayling Evils yet long without blood-shed as being vnperceived Sometime again vpoÌ„ application of the true measuring Reede for discerning the true Church within the compas of so importable an impietie cruelly murdered barbarouslie intreated eveÌ„ with applause of the World Sometime agayn in greater vigour terrifying their enemies in open view flying thorow the midst of HeaveÌ„ with the ever-lasting Gospell separated from incurable Contagion to come vp hither Sometime as now at last comming so down on the earth as it is all lightened with the glorious shyning of the Gospell Wee know that the true Church hath continued al-wayes Yet so as in a common Apostasie where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD and all the Earth followed the Beast receiving his Character Name or Number while to the Beast his wondering Sectators and charactized Slaues it appeared impossible that anie such Companie could bee shee consisted of 144000 secret sealed and chaste ones following the Lambe and having a powerfull and plentifull Dispensation of Grace and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps al-be-it none could eyther heare or learne their Song but them-selues Finallie wee acknowledge That the Gates of Hell never prevayled or shall prevayle agaynst the Church but yet they haue often assayled her strangelie And thus in what-so-ever sense your Assumption Philomathes That the Church of Rome hath onelie of all Companies in the Worlde for manie Ages retayned the name of CHRIST and anie Worship there-of is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall or evidentlie false And so your Conclusion commeth to nought Philadelphus This poynted Syllogisme of yours Eriphilus Eâ—…bulus hath so blunted as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church and beeing modified so as it may best seeme to bee one yet is falselie assumed of Rome I see no better Conclusion but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes and that wee seeke the BRYDE vvhere Shee may bee better found out Of Propers it 's a Propertie that ever Of their owne Subjectes they are surelie sayde Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever Continuance yet can not tho bee made Her proper Marke let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation Some tract of Tyme must bee of force fore-layde Where it is made a proper Praedication This Poynt is al 's accorded amongst Clerks No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks Philomathes Well Eubulus giving you that the Church continued not al-wayes in one and the same Condition of obtayning Trueth and that possiblie Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church in common but not vniversallie in each within it yet except some visible and seene Companie how small so-ever may bee produced by you who haue professed your Fayth Doctrine to whom you may with anie show of Reason acclayme the Title of the true Bodie so lay over on vs the name and blame of the Sore vvhat is all your reasoning but a poore and verie improbable Paralogisme A posse ad esse as Schooles speake And the poynt of our Syllogisme is not yet so farre blunted as Philadelphus would make it Eubulus To evince the possibilitie it sufficiently meeteth all your Men who agaynst our Demonstrations of GOD His Trueth with vs and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome oppose al-wayes and onlie to vs the impossibilitie that anie such Case should befall the Church So as mine Argument is not as you speake A posse ad esse but of that where-of wee evidentlie
whollie there-to my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey yet because in this Marke as in the toppe of your strength you glorie most I will GOD willing in few words vnfolde your Errour This then Philomathes is the Major or Proposition of your Argument The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible Philomathes And you haue al-readie as I thinke granted it neyther see I though you would recall your word what goodly you can say against it Eubulus I am to recall nothing of that I haue sayde but yet I must cleare in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation For how-so-ever I will still grant that in some respects the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible yet I will denye your Proposition if from a restrict Case you draw it to an absolute Assertion because in some consideration the Church is invisible And to cleare this In respect of the matter of the Church which is Men and in respect of the common outward forme in the publicke common Ensigne of Profession worship we confesse the Church to bee and al-wayes to haue beene visible But in respect of her inward forme the purpose of Grace where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth she is invisible And the LORD knoweth who are His. Schooles doe call the one Rationē Signi the other Rationē Beneplaciti And seeing it is an Article of our Faith to belieue the Church and that Fayth is of things which are not seene it followeth of necessitie that in some and that a most principall respect the Church is invisible For to be believed to be seene can not consist Yea this is so evident a trueth as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it these are his words Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri aliquid credi videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus sed credimus that is I say better that in the Church some thing is seene and some thing is believed for wee see that Companie which is the Church but that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST we see not but belieue it The one cōsideration discerneth Christians true or false from open Idolaters and Heathen men the other distinguisheth true Christians from outward professours onlie commō worshippers Now as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded so you see Philomathes that your Propositiō taken absolutelie were deceitfullie false Philomathes Even so much as you grant will serue me for concluding of mine Argument so as I neede not impugne your Distinction or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth I pleade but that the Church is ever visible Ratione Signi as you speake that is that the true Orthodox externall worship and worshippers haue beene al-wayes visible For it must bee some externall Signe falling vnder Sense and outward perception which must bee a Marke of the Church as you haue evinced agaynst vs eve◅ by our Bellarmine's suffrage and there-vpon did bereaue vs of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE Eubulus As you even modifie your Proposition Philomathes yet it implyeth a deceit which you bewray by your owne Glosse That is say you that the true and Orthodox Worship and Worshippers haue al-wayes beene visible Which if you doe meane in this Sense that al-wayes by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession Ratione Signi it might ever haue bene discerned where the true Worship and true Worshippers were and might haue beene seene I will heartilie yeelde you it But if he◅e-by as your Men pleade you would signifie that all-wayes and in common lawfull and true Worship and lawfull and true Worshippers haue so farre obtayned borne swey as what-so-ever in common helde place in the Church that was to bee esteemed Trueth then I still deny even your modified Proposition And it is still one and the same Fallacie wherein before in the Mark of Continuance you did fall and which at length I elided there In my Distinction Signi Beneplaciti I tolde you even now That by the visible Ensigne Christians in common good or bad or Orthodox or otherwayes were discerned from Forraigners and Heathen men Now heere-vpon to inferre That by the common visible Ensigne in the cōmunitie of Christians true Orthodox Worshippers or true Orthodox Worship are discerned from false and adulterous both vnder the same common Ensigne you may see how chyldish Sophistrie it were If Satan had but one way of assayling the Church namelie by open and avowed Hostilitie and if none but lawfull and Orthodox Worshippers were vnder it then had you reason to make the cōmon Ensigne of Visible Profession a sure Marke not onlie of Christians in common but even of true Christians al-so at least of lawfull outward worship But seeing that both by Scripture and many folde Experience we know that by no meane he hath so effectually prevayled as by transforming him-selfe in an Angel of Light vnder pretence of the common Ensigne to adulterate all lawfull vvorship of necessitie for discerning the true Church or approoved lawfull Worship from the Abhomination of Desolation both of them in sanctis Ecclesiae locis vnder one and the same Ensigne of Christian Profession wee must advert not onlie whose Hornes are pretended but also whose Mouth speaketh So as still you may see that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vnto and examined by our onelie demonstratiue Marke which in the beginning of our Disputation I layde downe Philomathes I loue so greatlie to bee resolved especiallie in this so mayne and maynlie controverted a Poynt as I will come farder with you than I know our Church will allow mee and giue you this That even Errour might possiblie haue taken place in the whole Church in common which Case I did not obscurelie put at the beginning of our Conference about this Marke yet seeing wee accord in this That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church and seeing that you yeelde mee this al-so That the same is al-wayes visible in respect of the matter there-of MEN and externall forme of Profession which is of necessitie a certayne trueth in so farre as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse but also with the Mouth wee confesse vnto Salvation How-so-ever it eyther hath or might haue fallen that most part were misscarried and that Adulterous worship and Worshippers haue had chiefe Rowme and beene most conspicuous and visible Yet how can you denye but some number at least behooved to be al-wayes of lawfull Worshippers and holding the Orthodox Fayth vvho both in their persons and in their Worship were visible even in tyme of greatest Corruption Eubulus Your vpright Dealing and desire of Resolution Philomathes maketh mee to let that freelie with you which with others I would perhaps haue longer stucke vnto For bringing you then to your Wishes I graunt
CHAPTER VII HOLYNESSE THIS you say in verie deede When you rehearse the Nicene Creede One Church Catholicke Holie and Apostolicke This is another Marke truelie The Church must bee holie Holie Men holie Service Ceremonies and Sacrifice Sacramentes and holie Dayes Are observed in her al-wayes As for the Sayncts and Martyres all And Virgines which you Saynctes doe call Whose Names are in your Kalendar When lived they and where In what Religion was it they died By whom were they Canonized If it were not the Church of Rome Then shall I bee converted soone If they were not your Companie Then is your Fayth an Haeresie Philadelphus I am against both your Wish and Expectation Eriphilus so farre cheared with your man's Poësie as if it may not trouble your cheare I would aske even chearfullie of you why hee hath passed by the Apostolicke Creede which with some more credite hee might haue cited and where-in hee might haue found al-so the propertie of HOLYNESSE to alleadge the Nicene for if hee thought that this word Apostolicke would haue marred his Metre by making his Lyne a foot longer yet the shortnesse of his immediatelie subsequent verses might haue recompensed that slippe neyther hath hee beene in the rest of this Ryme so squimmish as to stand too praeciselie on footes or halfe footes Eubulus Wee will let this passe Philadelphus for as I protested before I am not to insist in taxing all his absurdities no not in the Matter much lesse in his Metre which is lesse materiall I come to speake of this Marke of Holinesse and before I enter to examine the Man's Logicke I will yeelde this much That this once hee hath fallen on a true Propertie of the Church of CHRIST yea and I will grant thus much more That al-be-it all properties be not Marks because more is requyred for being a proper Marke than onlie to bee a proper Attribute yet that Holinesse is even a proper Marke of CHRIST His Church but where-in the Church of Rome hath as litle and lesse advantage than in anie of the former And for clearing of this Philomathes I must first put out your Man from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation where-in your Doctours delight to lye and thence to shoote at the Innocent in secret For if by Holinesse bee meaned that sanctified Disposition of the Soule and Affections by the Spirit of Regeneration wrought in all true Christians in that Sense it can bee no Marke because GOD onlie knoweth the Hearts of Men. And wee concluded before with consent of Bellarmine That all Markes must of necessitie fall vnder Sense And agayne if by Holynesse bee meaned that which is seene and exposed to perception in Mens outward carriage according to the Law of Righteousnesse in Manners and common conversation neyther thus can it be a proper Marke of CHRIST HIS true Church For that by the restrayning Vertue of GOD HIS Spirite of Administration even Heathen men and Infideles will appeare in all morall Vertues matcheable to Christians except that wee know that what-so-ever is not of Fayth is sinne Was not Paul vnrebukeable as concerning the Law while yet hee was not onlie no Believer but even a cruell Persecuter al-so Philomathes How-so-ever outward Righteousnesse may not bee a sure Marke of Men considered absolutelie for that fayre carriage which by the restrayning Vertue of the Spirit of Administration will bee even in Heathen men yet as you did in short wordes make answere to your selfe that what is not of Fayth is sinne and that there-fore no Heathen conversation how approoved so-ever can be counted for true Holynesse So amongst Professours of Christianitie I thinke that Holynesse in lyfe and manners must bee a most sure discerning Mark wherby to know the true Church as which must in them bee praesumed to proceede of Fayth And wee are a-searching of such Notes as in the communitie of Christians all acclayming the Title of the Church may discerne the Vpright from the Bastard in that same kynde So as your Objection of Heathen carriage in this case is clearlie the same Sophisme which you may remember that before you taxed in our Men. Eubulus Doe you not knowe Philomathes that even amongst Professoures not only will Hypocrites in all these Outwardes appeare to goe farre beyonde even the moste sincere and single-hearted Christians but even superstitious and corrupt vvorshippers yet in a blynde zeale vvill seeme to keepe more preciselie the vvaye of HOLINESSE and RIGHTEOVSNESSE than who haue more and truer Light And if no more were to leade you to knowe that HOLINESSE in this kynde can bee no Marke this alone might tell it you That your owne Men all-wayes in their Disputes with vs about the true Church Doctrine and Worship doe reject and that justlie all Argumentes brought by vs agaynst anie persons or personall actions of Men. How-so-ever agayne in charging vs they doe forget them-selues so farre as all-wayes to fall to personall and those impudentlie false and vnjust Criminations So as you may see that of necessitie this Marke of HOLINESSE must bee vnderstoode of an holie and lawfull Worship and holie and pure Doctrine And al-be-it I confesse that this can never bee anie-where but that there-with al-so shall bee some number of Names both inwardlie sanctified by the Worde and Spirite and al-so showing foorth their Fayth by their workes yet it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine and lawfull and pure Worship which is the proper Marke of the true Church and not eyther the inward Sanctification of the Soule which we see not or the onlie outward Manners where-in wee may bee deceived of your Man's Argument I will nowe set it before you that you may see the Force there-of That Companie which onlie hath in it holie Men holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. must bee the Church of GOD. But in the Church of Rome onelie these are to bee found There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie Church of GOD. Now to grant his Proposition or Major in such Sense as where-in I haue all-readie cleared and you all-so Philomathes haue confessed That onlie it can consist I denye his Assumption or Minor as which is shameleslie false except by the onelie sure and layde-downe Rule hee prooue it Philadelphus You must attende Eubulus the Probation of his Assumption in the next Proper Ballad that happeneth to breake out of the Super-aboundance of his Poēticall Veyne and suspende his Conclusion till then And that in the tyme hee may the more seriouslie set himselfe for it what if from his owne Groundes where-of hee glorieth one should drawe this contrarie Conclusion That Companie which hath turned all the Worship of GOD Who will bee worshipped in Spirit and Trueth in a prophane Histrionicke Farce which teacheth for Doctrines the Traditions of Men ' which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians whom their Lord will haue to be free saith Augustine with innumerable ydle superstitious Ceremonies of Mans inventiō in the multitude whereof all
not mooue him Eubulus You deceiue Philomathes by concluding Theticallie and absolutelie vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth and so you vnskilfullie confound diverse Cases For first inducing of an Infidell to belieue Scripture the Authoritie of the Church is a great Motiue or rather as Augustine calleth it a Commotiue and Opportanum inquirendi exordium that is A commodious entrie to inquire by Now from this speciall Case and qualitie of Case to inferre That the man by this Commotiue first induced had still there-after no other or greater Warrand for his Beliefe of Scripture but the Authoritie of the Church which first induced him it were no better Logicke than to conclude of the Samaritanes That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth than the Report of their Woman from the Well The Authoritie of the Church may and will often induce an Infidell to reverence and belieue Scripture but so as having come thus farte then in the communitie of that Church to discerne lawfull from vnlawfull worship and orthodox from hereticall professours the Scriptures onlie must haue place as in a case where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie were extreamlie ridiculous it beeing the verie point in question what companie is the Church And I shewed you before how your men are alwayes deceived or at least labour to deceiue others by confounding the case of the Church considered absolutelie and in relation to Forraigners and Infidels and reasoning from it so considered to the decyding of debate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church In the first the common notes are discretiue and the common authoritie a commotiue to induce but in the other there is no manner of way but the Scriptures as out of the Fathers I haue cleared And now â—…lomathes to returne to our poynâ—… whence this your â—…hreedbare Objection from Augustine hath driven â—…ee I pray you if your men are forced to confesse That the Markes of the Church are knowne by Scripture why flee they from having all both their Doctrine and Dealing examined by that same Rule What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this to â—…ject Scripture in the particular tryall of everie Article of Fayth and yet for a few wrested and pervâ—…ed Sentences where-by to proue some bastard and begâ—…yling Notes therefore impudentlie to all eadge That they for sooth doe cleare their Church by Scripture As if in all Scripture the holie Ghost had but given some Notes of a Companie where to seeke our Fayth and noâ—… clearlie set downe the Fayth which wee haue to holde and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto Your Cardinall Bellarmine in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers nearlie pintching him namelie of Augustine is forced to flee to this which you also 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge That the Scripture indeede teacheth what are the Notes of the Church And I haue verilie reason to thanke both you and him for it If as I presume of you so hee also had eyther willinglie or ingenuouslie yeelded it And though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of for the cleare advantage I haue in it to conclude agaâ—…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation I am sure that 〈◊〉 â—…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—… Schoâ—…Man will not agaynst Naâ—…re â—…nd all Schooles affirme of GOD the most perfect Doctour Thâ—… Hee 〈◊〉 Obseuruâ—… pâ—…r obscurius that which is obscure by anie thing which is more obscure For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus that is of thinges which are by nature more notore than are those things which they are brought to notifie Thus then I conclude vpon your owne Position That which cleareth anie thing must it selfe be more cleare But the Scripture cleareth which are the Notes of the Church There-fore as the Notes where-by the Church is knowne must bee more cleare than the Church which is knowne by them So the Scripture which teacheth those Notes must bee more cleare than both The Scripture which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe truelie taught and reverentlie received is the onlie sure and evident Ensigne of the House and Flocke And who is it that knoweth not this That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours and not the Colours by the Companie Now consider Philomathes whether your mens Objections Of Scriptures obscuritie doe fall and in what vprightnesse they are propounded And whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for or rather fraudfullie to divert the Simple from the onelie Light which leadeth to it And some of your owne Wryters convinced by cleare Trueth are forced to confesse what the more impudent sort so much oppugne Andreas Fricius thus speaketh DEVS Author est Verbi Sui quod tanti facit ut Coelum Terra facilius transitura sint quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum qui authoritatem tribuit qui illud in dignitatem vindicat qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum Testimonium quidem Ecclesia Spiritu DEI affâ—…ata dare potest Verbo Doctrinae hanc scilicet quam â—…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus acâ—…pisset non aliâ—…m esse à DEO prolitam Authoritatem verâ—… Illi â—…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum qui est Author illius Illustrator Defensor Propugâ—…ator Agayne the same Author Lib. 4. de Ecclesia Cap. 7. Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam Verbum Fundamentum est Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum Gabriel Biel Lib. 3. Sentent Distinct. 26. Scripturae canonicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex natura â—…ei sunt immutabiles immutabiliter verae Hosius in Confess Cap. 16. Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis et nos docentis So as Philomathes if you will not belieue vs yet your owne men may tell you Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe and would draw others with him in Darknesse Philadelphus Hee will haue vs to seeke after the Church as Children at Chacke-blynd-man groape after their Fellowes For first hee would picke out our Eyes or syle vs from seeing and then forsooth set vs a-searching But they who doe evill hate the Light and the Church of Rome had rather choose That this Debate were never decided than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought where-by they might bee found out who they are Through open Streete with lighted Lampe in hand A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone Where-of when one the Motiue did demand His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone 'Mongst Men more mad than Mamacks by the Moone I search sayde hee if I can finde one wyse Asse th' other sayde thyne Head is out of tune Canst thou discerne one though thou sawst him thryse But more your man is
jumpe set in his matter As hee who sought his drown'd Wyfe vp the Water Eriphilus Your Sonnets Philadelphus are verie sarcasticke but where-by if our man's Questions bee not better answered than by such cutting Checks the Scorne in ende will turne to bee your owne Eubulus Doe you well Eriphilus to bee angrie is onlie your man priviledged to bee a Poët and is hee so haeres ex asse vniversall Heyre to all the Muses as that wee haue no part nor portion in them Et nos quoque laâ—…rum momordimus But let vs see which of vs shall fall to packe vp the Scorne and having alreadie cleared what is the onelie sure Note of the Church let vs now more nearlie treade your man's traces in these his metricke Marks and try what weight they carrie First Philomathes reade the Inscriptions of his Sections for vp-taking his whole Drift Then will wee God willing examine each of them severallie and shortlie Philomathes These are the capitall wordes of all his Sections 1. Catholicke 2. Continuance 3. Visible 4. Vnitie 5. Holie 6. Heretickes Eubulus His whole Ryme as I remember â—…unneth on two maine poynts the one to prooue that the Church of Rome is the true Church of CHRIST the other to shew that our Churches are hereticall The first hee would conclude thus To what-so-ever companie the notes of Catholicke or Vniversalitie Continuance Visibilitie Vnitie and Holinesse doe properlie conveane that is the onelie true Church of CHRIST But to the Church of Rome all these doe properlie conveane Therefore the Church of Rome is the onlie true Church of CHRIST Eriphilus If you can clearlie loose mee that Kâ—…ot Eubulus you may perhaps induce mee to take more of your counsell But I suspect you are once snared for of the proposition none can make question the assumption will beare out it selfe and so I hope the Conclusion shall stand stedfast Eubulus And if I shall cleare the proposition to bee so vayne and Sophisticall as though the propounder were heere present to pleade for it yet I would GOD willing breed him such Businesse to mayntayn it as should run him quyte out of all his ryming humour And if I show his Assumption also to be evidentlie false what wil you make Eriphilus of your man's miserable Conclusion The vanitie sophisticall deceit of his Proposition I will best discover as I shall answere to each of these his Markes severallie according as hee bringeth them in order so by an Induction to strengthen his false Assumption And yet even thus I feare Eriphilus that you shall recall your liberall Offer and be never a whit the more subject to my counsell But Wisedome will bee justified of her owne Children Philomathes reade on Philomathes Then hearken what hee sayeth of the first Marke Catholicke CHAPTER III. CATHOLICKE INTO your Byble I haue read The Church must throgh the World be spred For CHRIST His Apostles sent With Power and Commandement That to all Nations they should goe To preach and to baptize also Who hath done this to know I wisht For that is sure the Church of CHRIST And for Exemple let mâ—…e know And if thou canst I pray thee show What Compà nie did take in hand The first Conversion of our Land And of our Countreyes everie-where Throughout the Worlde farre and neare If this was not the Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Saynct Paul in his Epistle sayeth The Romanes had the Catholicke Fayth Saying It was renowned Spoken of and published Through-out the Worlde over all Catholicke Universall If yours were ever so Then to your Churches will I goe So sayeth the Prophet Malachie There shall bee offered farre and nie A cleane Oblation and Sacrifice From the place the Sunne doeth ryse To the going downe of the same And what is that I pray thee name If it bee not the Holie Masse I 'll bee a Protestant as I was In the eighteenth Psalme I finde The whole Worlde should heare their sound If these Markes you doe not want Then presentlie I shall recant Eubulus For myne acquytall in that where-of I gaue to Eriphilus some more hope than I thinke hee eyther did conceiue or would bee willing I should make good and to show the vaine sophistrie of the Proposition of your man's mayne Argument so farre as concerneth this his first Marke of Vniversalitie till I come lyke-wayes vpon the rest I say Philomathes that Vniversalitie can bee no proper Marke of the Church yea that it can not bee anie Marke at all And that therefore your man's mayne Proposition is in this poynt vayne and sophisticall Eriphilus Indeede Sir bâ—… this your Assertion you make mee hope so little that you shall make your word good as I am assuredlie perswaded that you are worthie to be burned for a most detestable Hereticke who dare so peartlie deny that which I thinke never one of your Sect durst ever openlie gayne-say to this houre Will you draw mee thinke you to follow your counsell in ought who thus denyeth a speciall Article of our Creede and is so audacious as to affirme that the Church is not Catholicke Eubulus I did suspect Eriphilus that you would kindle at my Position and therefore for a more gentle Recept I even of purpose turned my talke to Philomathes But I will calmlie coole your heate if I can I deny no Article of the Creede I both confesse and belieue the Catholicke Church But that I may yet once make you more agast in that I doe belieue it I even therefore deny Catholicke or Vniversalitie to bee a proper Marke of the Church yea or anie Marke at all For Fayth is the evidence of thinges which are seene but the vniversalitie of the Church is apprehended by Fayth therefore the vniversalitie of the Church is not seene Now if it bee of things which are not seene but are believed it can not bee a marke where-by heere to discerne the true Church And because Eriphilus you sought for Syllogismes I thus reason All Marks are seene or fall vnder some Sense but Vniversalitie is not seene neyther falleth vnder anie Sense There-fore Vniversalitie can bee no Marke The Proposition of this Argument as it is moste certayne so is it confessed by your Cardinall Bellarmine in his second chapter De notis Eccles. The Assumption none will denye who haue anie Sense For all Schooles holde this for an vndoubted Principle That no Vniversall as it is Vniversall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or falleth vnder Sense because it is properlie the Object of Reason Much lesse then doeth the Object of Fayth which transcendeth both Sense and Reason fall vnder Sense And so can never be any discerning Marke betwixt Acclaymers Thus Eriphilus except you haue ought where-by to infrindge mine Argument your Man his mayne Proposition in so farre as concerneth this his Marke of Vniversalitie is both vayne and sophisticall Vayne because he bringeth that for a discerning Marke which falleth not
vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting
in proprietie of Signification Philadelphus You haue Eubulus made this their Sacrifice so vnsavourie that I long to bee from it I pray you what is his fourth Reason Eubulus Because Philadelphus the smell of the Romish Incense I perceiue is to you some-what loathsome for your Refreshment you shall now haue an Argument to laugh at if this may not mooue Eripbilus to count it in vincible Advert then a deadlie Demonstration David sayeth in the eyghteenth Psalme And their sound went thorow all the Earth There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church If one were set in scorne to play a part to the Partie's disgrace whom he representeth could he haue fished out thinke you a fyner Argument than this is David in the nynteenth Psalme which some make the eyghteenth showeth how GOD hath in His works so playnlie manifested Him-selfe as no Nation in the world can pretend any excuse of ignorance Paul in his Epistle to the Romanes for taking from obstinate Iewes all excuse of their induration agaynst the Gospell because the same was so playnlie largelie and powerfullie preached he to this ende citeth and verie pertinentlie the wordes of David But I pray you by what Logicke will it follow here-vpon that the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church more than the Devill and his angels who compasse the Earth continuallie roaring seeking whom they may devour or then the busie Emissaries of Satan who compasse Sea and Land to make a Proselyte and make him doublie the chyld of the Devill We affirme That the Gospell at first was so playnlie and plentifullie offered to the World as that most justlie for the contempt there-of and because men loved Lies better than the Trueth therefore GOD gaue men over to strong delusion effectualnes of error whereby Satan obtained a throne in the Temple all the Earth folowing the Beast And that now again that man of Sinne by the revived light of the Gospell is so clearlie revealed as who will not come out of Babylon are willinglie blynded and worthilie part-takers of her judgements And now Philomathes as I thinke I haue aunswered to all your Rymer's foure Reasons where-by hee would conclude CATHOLICKE to bee a Marke of the Church and proper to Rome If you haue ought to reply speake it other-wayes let vs heare more of your Man his Musicke Philadelphus No but by your leaue Eubulus my Song was first tabled And you shall haue it short For it is in honour of the Church of Rome vvhich is daylie shortening If Catholicke can not a Marke bee counted And shamleslie as if it bee assumed If vaynlie Rome vaunts now of Vertues wonted When shee is but a Carion consumed If ov'r the Sayncts shee proudlie hath presumed Her Sacrifices if they bee but sinne That Mother-Whoore if duelie Shee bee doom'd If all Her Silver turned bee in Tinne If Apostaticke more than Apostolicke Shee claymes vnkyndlie to bee call'd Catholicke Philomathes What-so-ever might bee replyed to you Eubulus yet I will not insist farder at this tyme. But seeing that Philadelphus is so poeticallie disposed as hee must vent his Verses I will sharpen him with a new Subject where-on to meditate his next Sonnet Thus then our Man speaketh of CONTINVANCE CHAPTER IV. CONTINUANCE THis is another Marke most sure The Church of CHRIST must still endure According as our Saviour sayd When for Saynct Peter Hee had prayd Simon thy Fayth shall never fayle The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle The holie Ghost your Comforter Shall remayne with you ever-more And I My Selfe your surest Friend Will bee with you vnto the ende Saynct Paul sayeth the same Speach There shall bee al-wayes Men to preach Apostles Doctors and the lyke Into the Church Catholicke If these bee not the Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus You must not expect of mee Philomathes that I will so vnprofitablie spende tyme as to sift out narrowlie all your Man 's grosse Over-sightes because I eye but the mayne poynt and there-fore you haue not to thinke that eyther I spye no◅ or doe approoue what in him I passe over vntaxed For as heere hee vaynlie and ydlie payneth him-selfe to prooue a poynt which no man will denye That the Church continueth al-wayes So for prooving heere-of to alleadge the particular Promise made to Peter That his Fayth should not fayle hee is ridiculous and sophisticall For in that place the LORD speaketh of Peter's particular Fayth that Spirituall Vertue begotten in him by the holie Ghost which was his Victorie where-by hee over-came in that his temptation and not the Doctrine of Fayth as your Man hath now twyse dotingly expounded As if the Falling or Standing of the Church did hang on anie one particular Man his Apostasie or Stabilitie Hee no lesse audaciouslie fathereth a Lie on the Apostle Paul That al-wayes there shall remayne Apostles in the Church For except hee escape by aequivocation it is most certayne that in the most proper and strict Signification of Apostleship as it was an extraordinarie Function but for a tyme till the Foundation of the Church should bee layde and the Canon closed So how-so-ever others succeeding in Pastorall and ordinarie Offices of the Church and teaching the same Doctrine and so keeping the Foundation layde by them are truelie the Successours of the Apostles Yet that anie did succeede to the Apostleship it is extreamlie false For the Church being constituted extraordinarie Offices ceased as did the extraordinarie Gift and manner of Calling which maketh the Office And I even muze if your owne Men will not judge this your Poet worthie of punishment that will haue Apostles continuing al-wayes plurallie in the Church seeing you all doe account this Dignitie singular to the Pope who onlie now in all the World takes to him-selfe the Monopolie of Apostolicall Benedictiō Philomathes It is the mayne poynt where-in wee would bee resolved For these other things I am not to make Argument Can you al-wayes denye but that CONTINVANCE is a proper Marke of the Church Eubulus It is no more a proper Note of the Church than Colour and Stature are proper Notes of a Man And that I forget not my promise as I come on them one by one to shew the vayne sophistrie of your man's mayne Proposition in all I affirme That as Vniversalitie was foolishlie brought by him for a discerning Marke betwixt Acclaimers so also is this of Continuance not that I deny it to bee an attribute and common accident for certaynlie since her first beginning the Church both hath continued and shall continue al-wayes But doe you holde this good Logicke in your man Philomathes of common accidents to conclude that they are proper Notes and discerning Marks you know that Proprium is but one of diverse kynds of Predication and that what-so-ever is proper to any thing it conveaneth as Schooles speake Omni soli semper that is To all to onlie and al-wayes But
even by a deceitfull confounding of what-so-ever poyntes of Trueth and what-so-ever degrees of Division or Dissention which must bee wyselie and carefullie distinguished For there bee manie poynts of Trueth wherein diversitie of judgement breaketh not the Vnitie of the Church Yea and manie Divisions and Dissentions which yet divyde not the dissenting Members one from another or if one from another yet neyther of them from the Head or common Bodie from which those onlie may bee sayde absolutelie to fall which holde not the Head or subvert directlie and with pertinacie the Foundation For manie in weaknesse will holde Opinions which in-deede doe even choppe agaynst the Foundation by cleare and necessarie Consequence but not immediatelie or directlie So as if you should challenge the Holders of that which their opinion doth import they wil not only deny it but evē abhorre the sequele of that which they mayntayne but not with that mynde And it were great want of Charitie to judge a-lyke of these and of the others Wee are all heere still compassed with Infirmitie knowing but in part and prophecying but in part In which Case the Apostle charitablie advyseth That Who are perfect they bee so mynded and if anie bee other-wayes mynded that the LORD will reveale it vnto them but that in the tyme in that where-to wee are come wee ought to proceede by one Rule mynding the same thinges I confesse manie hundreths doe regrate it with Teares That the Infirmitie of Mens myndes too farre in selfe-wiening wedded to their owne Sense and not humblie receiving Information or charitablie comporting with weake Brethren according to the Apostle's Rule both hath bred and still breedeth too manie bitter and vnnecessarie Distractions and scandalous Schismes about such thinges as if Humilitie and Loue had over-ruled Mens Affections neyther were nor are of such Moment where-fore the Vnitie of Men holding still one and the same Head and keeping one and the same Foundation should bee so lightlie broken or the Peace of GOD His House troubled But the weaknesse and not duelie-mortified Humours of Men maketh not the Trueth of GOD to fayle That Dissentions and Divisions are it declareth Men to bee yet in that part carnall but it doeth not separate them from the common Bodie so long as they holde one and the same LORD one Fayth one Hope one Baptisme and are vnited in one and the same Spirit no more than did this Defect in the Church of Corinth which al-be-it that heere-fore the Apostle did rebuke as carnall in that yet hee still did intitle with the Name of CHRIST His Church And though by anie such Schisme eyther a Person or Companie should bee divided from particular eyther Church or Churches it will not therefore follow I thinke none dare avouch it that there-fore they are separated from the Head or common Bodie so to make them in a-lyke Case with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation and Deserters of the Head Wee see by Experience in naturall Bodies That by inflicted Woundes such Gaps will bee made as the sides of the Wound eyther from other will start a-sunder and so one part of the Bodie by a separating Wound will be severed from another part which both will yet remayne still vnited in the common Bodie and bee part-takers of one and the same common Sense Motion and Lyfe from one and the same Head and Heart Thus Philomathes your Poet's Proposition absolutelie affirmed is false even when hee hath modified his indefinite All Poynts to all Poynts of Trueth Philomathes That no Vnitie argueth anie Companie to bee CHRIST'S Church but Vnitie in Trueth I must needs confesse it and that everie diversitie of opinion or everie degree of Distraction doth not separate the dissenters or distracted mutuallie from other or at least eyther of them from the common Bodie and Head I cannot denye but that you haue evinced it clearlie Yet so manie and so materiall are the Divisions amongst your Churches and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie and againe so great is the Harmonie and Concord of the Romish Church as I thinke giveth just Reason to suspect of you that you are not nor can not bee vnited as you spake in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and Spirit and that the Church of Rome hath onlie and evidentlie this Honour Eubulus Now Philomathes you put the Lyfe of your Syllogisme in the Hands of your Assumption to stand or fall there-with And denying vs anie such Vnitie as may argue a Church of CHRIST you haue appropriated all to Rome how justlie we will even now examine and first your Objection against vs is manie wayes sophisticall First if such bee accounted ours who are none of vs the imputation is vnjust Wee acknowledge and doe lament it that there is too great Division and varietie of Sects calling themselues Christians in the worlde but what doe most part of them more or so much concerne vs as they concerne your Church of Rome out of whose dongue as noysome Flees they are bred and by Satan's craft comming to fly on vpon our Churches that by the mixture of their Poyson they may bring the Trueth in disgrace are onlie by vs diligentlie resisted and their Errours clearlie convinced while in the meane tyme your Romish Church whose brood they are is carelesse of anie thing but to suppresse the Trueth and calumniouslie to lay over on vs the Stinke of their owne Excrements As for such whom we will not disadvow in common how-so-ever wee will not justifie the Ambition Giddinesse and bitternesse of some particular Men who as fyre-brands disturbe humurouslie and vnnecessarilie the Peace of the Church I affirme that no such materiall Poynts are in differ betwixt vs in common wherefore wee both may not and ought not embrace others mutuallie as Brethren Which that wee doe not it is our weaknesse and the malicious worke of but a few evil-inspired Instruments seeking more their owne Estimation than GOD his Glorie and good of His Church And that no such Separation is betwixt vs but that how-so-ever by a cruell Wound of mercilesse Hands wee are separated one of vs from another yet wee are still joyned in the common Head and in the common Bodie each of vs to other So as your Man 's odious enumeration of Protestants Puritanes Calvinists Zwinglians and if you list to adde to them Lutheranes also is but a calumnious traducing of such as most part are not separated eyther from other or at least how-so-ever by some weaknesse they bee in that sort distracted yet are but one Bodie joyned in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and informed all of them by one and the same Spirit al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure Amongst whom there is no just breach of Communion how-so-ever that by a Wound of some cruell and dispitefull Men those you doe call Lutherians are vnnecessarilie separated from the rest but none of vs from the common Head and Bodie in which
true Religion is not onlie buried but al-so lost Which after that perfect Sacrifice which CHRIST offered once for all offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices for Sinne Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne which they haue not received from the LORD Which superstitiouslie keepe Dayes and Tymes Which set vp Saynctes departed and erect Images to bee worshipped with Religious Adoration Who glorying of Fathers and Martyres are them-selues Persecuters and Murderers of the Sayncts That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST but is vndoubtedlie The Antichristian Synagogue But such is the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is not the true Church of CHRIST but is The Antichristian Synagogue Now as your Man 's stout Asseveration of holie Service Ceremonies Sacrifice Sacraments Dayes c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion except you try verifie them to be such by that onlie Touch-stone which in anie case you desyre never to bee touched so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts Martyres and Virgines contayned in our Kalendar and the pretended canonizing of them much lesse helpe him What they haue beene who are contayned in our Kalendar wee are not much curious to inquyre because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts but for a civill Rule where-by to calculate Tymes And I praesume that Ianus Iulius and Augustus are none of the number written in Heaven as perhaps no more are some others vvho are written in the Kalendar vvhose Names yet in civill vse may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes And I thinke verilie your Poet hath lost both the Yeare of GOD and Dominicall Letter al-so when hee is prooving Religion from the Kalendar which wee esteemed ever should bee cleared from Scripture And hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie as hee asketh when and where they lived But foolish Man it is neyther the ryme when nor the place where anie Man eyther liveth or dieth that maketh him a Christian. But that third thing in his Question which onlie for all except to multiplie Babling hee should haue asked namelie in what Fayth they lived and died And then wee answere That if they were Saynctes indeede they both lived and died in the same Fayth which wee holde and were even of our Companie which Companie is not defined by Tyme when or place where but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones in what-so-ever place and of what-so-ever tyme in one LORD one Fayth one Spirit on Baptisme c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth and Thy Word is Trueth sayeth our Saviour And giving this that all these Sayncts had beene not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome then but also that they had beene of her Companie for manie even now are in her Companie which are not of it Come out of her my People sayeth the Spirit and holding one and the same Fayth which Rome at that tyme helde yet as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you What will anie Prayse or Praerogatiue of Rome then make for Rome now which is not now of the Companie of Rome then but is the Synagogue of Satan where-as Rome of olde was of our Companie Eriphilus What Philadelphus will you make those whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized to bee of your Companie they were Canonized I tell you may Ages before Luther was borne Philadelphus Of their Canonizing Eriphilus I will not now much dispute whether it was farther eyther to their honour who were so Canonized or to theirs who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour in making Sayncts or to the reproach and disgrace of both I am certaine that whom GOD hath sanctified hee is and will bee a Saynct though the Pope and all the Conclaue had concluded the contrarie and whom GOD hath not sanctified no power in the Worlde can make holie I say that in this your glorying of Canonizing Saynctes you haue as valide an Argument for the Church of Rome as the building of the Prophets Tombes and garnishing of their Sepulchres was for the Iewes whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets and them-selues crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie And our Fayth Eriphilus was not borne with Luther no more than your Heresie was borne with you but our Fayth is the same Fayth where-by all Faythfull in all Ages and Places ever lived as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion which even in the Apostolicke tymes Satan was a-hatching and which having by slow degrees mounted to so monstrous an height is now agayne neare the dead-trach to the Devil 's great displeasure Philomathes If EUBULUS and I shall giue over to you PHILADELPHUS and to ERIPHILUS the reasoning of this Matter I feare wee must provyde vs some-where of long Weapons to goe betwixt you so Satyricke are you and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS Philadelphus Verilie Philomathes I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe than I am able and if Eriphilus take my Counsell hee shall beholde you all-so to pleade your part And it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne as it pleaseth you to call them which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth as Eubulus sad Syllogismes vvhereby hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes as how-so-ever at first rejecting my Sonnets hee summoned vs to Syllogismes yet I perceiue him now so surfeyted with them that in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion I will yet vouchsafe him one Sonnet to swadge it where-in hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued Continuance is but a common Case Things Visible are often-times vnviewed What 's Unitie if it bee not in Grace Hypocrisie some-tyme â—…surpes the place Of Holynesse if true Light bee not Leader Who Flesh for Spirit who Shades for Sooth embrace The more devote more doting they 'r and deader Would'st thou stand stay'd ' gaynst all both Doubts Dangers Follow CHRIST'S Voyce and flee the voyce of Strangers Philomathes I knowe not howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde but verilie you haue made your worde good in this That in all your Sonnet there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence as you haue compryzed in a short Summe the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse agaynst our Man's Markes But nowe both the Day and the Way are shortening and wee haue yet one Poynt to passe thorowe namelie of HAERETICKES You haue beene so difficill Eubulus to graunt vs the Title of the true Church and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes as I would gladlie heare how you will cleare your owne Churches from this imputation of HAERESIE which our Man heere at great length layeth agaynst you Eubulus If hee could haue prooved his power in anie thing hee would chiefelie haue imployed it for the credite of his owne Church and Cause Where-in if hee had prevayled hee should with one and the same travell haue
and call it Prudence and Vertue yea and a good Prudence and affirme That who vse it are to bee praysed those are Teachers of Men to become Liars Eriphilus You will not so easilie as you trow get mee in-trapped with your Interrogatours for there is some even Godlie and prudent Simulation Eubulus I mynde no such Circumvention as you feare but moste playne Dealing for gayning of you more than my Poynt And to showe you howe farre I am from entertayning impertinent Plea I will not now question with you about this howe well anie Simulation may bee made to accord with Prudence and Pietie But let the Instances which I shall produce beare witnesse vvhether they bee such as may escape vnder this your Sconse As for the Position which I haue brought in all the Poyntes there-of your owne Man Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta vvho hath written a whole Treatise of Aequivocations in Favoures as hee professeth of the Iesuites In Cap. humanae aures 12. Quaest. 5. affirmeth playnleie In d. Cap. humanae Pag. 352. Pag. 349. Et pag. 351. Eriphilus You may perhaps vvrong him in this Imputation But and though anie one such Man hath vvritten so yet ought it not bee counted a common Fault of our CHVRCH Howe manie of your Men mayntayne Poyntes which your CHVRCH yet disadvoweth in common Eubulus If I doe wrong him his Booke and places there-of alleadged by mee will witnesse And that his Doctrine is a just Imputation agaynst your Church is cleare by this That Pope Gregorie the thirteenth approoved and ratified his Doctrine as Sanctam inconcussam holie and stable And besides him Gregorius de Valentia a lesuit Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo punct 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION Prudentem Defensionem a wyse Defence The fore-named Navarrus in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth and highlie prayseth an Aequivocation vsed by Saynct FRANCIS vvho beeing asked by the Sergeantes persuing after a Murder If such a Murderer had passed that way did put his Handes in his Gowne Slieues and aunswered That hee had not passed that way Vnderstanding with himselfe contrarie to common perception that hee had not passed thorowe his Slieues And the sayde Navarrus addeth even there Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI that this Doctrine of Aequivocations is founded vpon that noble Fact of that Great PATRIARCH Saynct FRANCIS Philadelphus Besides that common dislyke which al-most all the other Romane Clergie haue of Iesuites I thinke that the Cordeliers haue heere a proper Quarrell and a most competent Plea and Action agaynst them who thus take vnto them-selues wrongfullie the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION which beeing founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS should with all reason haue remayned the Propertie of his Familie as accordinglie they were called once commonlie LYING FRIERS till now the Iesuites haue so farre encroached vpon this their Right as that how farre so-ever the Friers bee still set to mayntayne their Title yet the Iesuites doe farre exceede them in all the cunning kyndes of Aequivocation Eubulus It is an vnlucklie Debate where-in the Victors greatest Honour is that there-by hee prooveth to bee the more neare sib vnto Satan But to prosecute my Matter The same Navarrus teacheth that a person accused before a Iudge who proceedeth not juridice lawfullie is not holden to confesse the Trueth but may vse AEQVIVOCATION mentallie reserving within him-selfe some other thing than his wordes doe sound yea eyther in Answere or Oath to his Iudge or Superiour that hee may vse a Bout-gate of Speach Amphibologia whether through a diverse signification of the word or through the diverse intention of the asker and of him that maketh answere and although it bee false according to the meaning of the asker in cap. Ne quis can 22. quaest 2. The same Navarrus instructeth a Witnesse to depone that hee knoweth nothing reserving this within him-selfe no thing that hee is holden to tell And hee giveth the same instruction to Pleaders who are requyred to giue their Oathes de calumnia or of Veritie Pag. 151. Toletus a Iesuit and a Cardinall teacheth these same healthsome Lessons Instruct. sacerd lib. 4. cap. 21. Iacobus Sylvanus aliâs Keller Iesuit teacheth the same Philipp contr Anonymum c. pag. 5. Besides all these Eriphilus doe they not teach men to bee Liars who affirme that no Oath given to an Haereticke or Infidell is to bee keeped And yet this was both inacted and practized in the Councell of Constance Iacobus Simancha Episcopus Pacensis de Catholic institut cap. 46 al-so avoucheth it Conradus Brunus de Haereticis lib. 3. cap. 15 determineth that no Pactions Conventions Lawes Confirmations rescripta where-by Haeretickes obtayne Peace and Securitie ought to bee keeped or counted of anie force or effect Now if wilfull and even purposed Perjurie may bee counted Pietie and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Trueth you esteeme a prudent Simulation Eriphilus I thinke him pittifullie imprudent who hath anie dealing with you Philomathes I beseech you Eubulus no more of this For my part I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation And I thinke verilie that the Church hath beene evill beholden to those Men what-so-ever they were who haue brought that Blot vpon the Catholicke Fayth Eubulus Then Philomathes of all others the Church is worst beholden to the Pope who hath approved and confirmed and yet still â—…hamelessie mayntayneth that disgracefull Doctrine And you who see the Evill are yet worse than woâ—…st of all beholden to your-selues who in so playnlie a perceived Praevarication yet suffer your selues to bee so sensleslie and miserablie miscarried But how-so-ever I bee in this purpose more playne than pleasant vnto you and that even there-fore I could bee content to speake no more of it who am loath to grieue you in anie thing yet because I promised it to Eriphilus and hee conceived that I could not possiblie cleare such as hee called it a Calumnie I must essay to acquyte my selfe in prooving all-so of your Romanistes the other Poynt and Note of their spirituall Kâ—…nred propounded by mee of Devilish Dealing namelie that they are Murderers and teach men so as well as Liars and thus are Satan's vpright Children Cardinall Baronius in his Epistle agaynst the Venetians speaketh thus The Ministrie of Peter blessed Father is two-folde To feede and to kill according to that Feede my Sheepe and according to that Kill and eate For when the Pope hath to deale with refractarie and averse parties as are the Venetians then Peter is bidden Kill and slay and packe them vp in his Bellie Is not this I pray you reverentlie and rightlie vsed Scripture The same Baronius in his Paraenesis to the Venetians Pag. 9. It resteth O Father the Pope that you draw agaynst Malefactours the Sword of Peter whom to this ende CHRIST appoynted over Kingdomes and Nations Their King-killing Doctrine
great Citie which spirituallie is called Sodome and Aegypt and then the VVhoore was drunken with the Blood of Saynctes and the Beast became whollie of the Dragon's Colour Nowe where vpon this That no opposition was made by them your Man concludeth That there-fore none at all were I pray you Philomathes what kynde of Logicke doe you account it Because in Spayne and Italie no open opposition is made to Poperie are there there-fore no Protestant eyther Pastours or Professours in those partes The future Ages might perhaps bee induced to thinke so because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie no-thing beeing recorded but what in common obtayneth in the Tyme But wee who nowe liue would laugh him to heading as an impudent or senselesse Liar who would but denye that even in Rome are hundreths who holde the Pope to bee Antichrist And howe great encowragement so-ever our too great Lenitie giveth them of kything yet would they bee contented that their numbers amongst vs were esteemed but according to their open and advowed opposition When the golden Calfe was set vp in the Wildernesse and that by so common an Apostasie as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill it might appeare that none had beene there for the LORD or free of that common Guiltinesse and yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge Were there none true eyther Prophets or Professours in Israel the yeares of Elias lurking And yet who spake publicklie for the Trueth Did not even Elias thinke that all were gone when yet there were an hundreth Prophets in one Caue and seaven thousand true Professours in one and the same Kingdome Shall Tolleration speciallie in perilous tymes conclude approbation of what is tollerated in all the Tolleraters there-of Doeth not Augustine acknowledge in his tyme where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie was not so farre advanced but that Trueth still obtayned some place in common that for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges which other-wayes they vtterlie mislyked Attour in your Man's Objection is another ridiculous Fallacie by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes and accordinglie the diverse and distinct degrees of growth of that Apostasie in the course of tyme and not distinguishing accordinglie the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers and of opposition therevnto No Age since the Apostolicke tymes wanted its owne opposition and Opponers according to the degree of Evill all-though they came not to that last and highest degree to which the open discoverie of the Evill in the toppe of all importable and vncurable Impietie did force Men. Loue is ever loath to cast off till all hope bee past And sober Men some-tymes in a laudable judgement some-tymes agayne in weaknesse will even choose often in a prevayling Iniquitie rather to lurke and keepe themselues cleane than with perilous Contestation eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace or object them-selues to desperate Daungers Which not-with-standing when they perceiue that vvithout playne perill of all Christianitie and imputation to them-selues of betraying the Gospell Peace can no more bee keeped will then rather contest with all hazard than tollerate a clearlie-discovered and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe Shall a Thiefe bee counted no Thiefe but from the tyme of his open Endytement Or shall the first beginninges of injurious Vsurpation on the one part and an vndoubted and cleare Right on the other be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation A Man disposed to Peace will long beare and patientlie expect Reparation of Wronges and even comport with manie injurious Encroachmentes vpon hope that Reason and gentle Admonition will bring the Partie to doe him measure VVho not-with-standing at last perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse and daylie progresse in wrong doing will then intende playne Action agaynst him for his Right Nowe shall the vsurping and injurious Partie haue in this anie reason where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges and vsurpation because they were never till then challenged in that manner and degree You may see more heere-of in my TREATISE of our CALLINGES and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION Philomathes Well let vs goe on Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Eubulus No but if it had what should haue followed there-vpon vnto the Church more than vpon the fall of Iudas What a ridiculous Question is this as if on the standing or falling of anie one Man or what-so-ever number of Men did hang the fall or stabilitie of the Church which is builded neyther on Man nor Men but on that immooueable Rocke which can not fall Yet your Bellarmine confesseth That though the Pope should fall away from Trueth yet the Church should not there-fore fayle Philomathes You who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations fall now to the same Play which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For by Peter's Fayth hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue where-with Peter was endewed there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation as you would perhaps descrybe it but that Doctrine of Fayth which Peter professed and taught Eubulus Then Philomathes the playing with Aequivocations shal be still your Poet's part for the Lord prayed for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth where-of Satan sought to sift him which remayning steadfast was his Victorie in that his Temptation as I haue before signified And if your Man will haue it permitted vnto him by Poeticall Licence agaynst the LORD'S mynde to wrest Scripture and to intitle thus the Doctrine of Fayth yet why is it called Peter's faith more than am 's or Iohn's And why would not your Poet rather according to Scripture speach cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST But in what-so-ever sense giving him that the Fall or Standing of the Church had depended whollie on the fayling or stabilitie of Peter's Fayth could that Fayth bee no other-wayes preserved but in the Church of Rome And shall the fall of Rome conclude that Peter's Fayth and consequentlie CHRIST'S Church is fallen To make this Conclusion infallible your Man must bring a better Argument than a vayne vaunt of a bare personall Succession while in the tyme they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth to the fayth of Simon Magus Philomathes Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Eubulus No but they did so farre assayle and with such successe in GOD His just judgement and wyse permisssion as Satan obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD. Philomathes Did the Salt lose its Savour Eubulus It did so farre lose its Savour in common and such as should haue beene the Salt of the Earth became so vnsavourie that they could serue for nothing but to bee cast out and trodden vnder foot Cast out the Court which is with-out the Temple and mete it not c. yet ever still the LORD had Ministers so seasoned with the Spirit of Light and Grace as they were al-wayes Candle-stickes and Oliues to
HEE hath remooved all that vs with-stood HEE comforts vs gainst all may make vs sorie Since here-to nought but Mercie miere did moue THEE Should wee not LORD with all our Soules then loue THEE FINIS The Author his Meditation on the 63 Yeare of his Age now 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 THis is I know my Climactericke yeare And where-in if it shall please GOD to take mee What profit or what pleasure haue I here So louelie as the loue there-of may make mee Affect frayle Lyfe which must at length forsake mee Which is of Illes but a Succession Sphericke Where-of each houre I count my Climactericke On â—…irier Hopes my Soule it selfe heere stayeth I neyther loathe nor loue long heere to liue Long byding heere my Blessednesse delayeth Heere vnder Sinne I doe but groane and grieue Heart-broken but that firmlie I belieue My Death an Ende shall set to Sinne and Sorrow Gladlie come on then gratefull Guest to morrow Meane whyle my GOD with Thy good Sprite direct mee So as I never wander from THY Wayes And by THY Potent Power so protect mee As stable I may stand gaynst all Essayes Discowrage not THY Servaunt with Delayes But how-so-ev'r it shall please THEE to proue mee Still let me feele my LORD that THOV dost loue me Each moment teach mâ—…e of my Dayâ—…s to number To Wisedome whollie that myne Heart applying I never sinke downe in a senselesse slumber But Lusts and all vngodlinesse denying And on THY loving Promises relying In all Assaultes I may haue Hope and Hearting And last to THEE a peaceable Departing I seeke not Peace with Sinners or with Sinne But Peace which passeth vnderstanding all Which New-birth heere doth in our breasts begin In that mee keepe till hence LORD Thou mee call From Fayth Hope Loue LORD let mee never fall But fighting out this good Fight by THY Grace Aeternallie syne let mee see THY Face There shall I fynde that inexhausted Fountayne Of endlesse Blisse there shall my Soule bee filled With sight of Thee there setled on my Mountayne I shall haue more than Heart ev'r wisht or willed In Booke of Lyfe there shall I see mee Billed Sacietie of Ioyes lyes there-in Store And vnperturbed Pleasures ever-more Passe vp then Soule possesse that pleasant Place Onlie for GOD'S peculiar Ones prepared Goe in to Glorie by the Gate of Grace Where never more in Sinne thou shalt bee snared What wee shall bee there shall it bee declared I long to know the Cafe which never Eye Here saw Eare heard Heart thought what that may bee FINIS ESCAPES IN PRINTING Pag. lin for reade 10 35 exceding opportunitie exceeding opportunâ—…lie 11 22 Thessalonian Thessalian 12 5 Thessalonian Thessalian 27 8 to her owne of her owne 37 26 Mamackes Maniackes 41 22 are seene are not seene 46 30 Gates that are Gates are 66 3 and no part as no part Ibid. 9 notiue nociue 70 31 his is this is 71 5 cleareth you cheareth you Ibid. 13 Mules Moles Ibid. 15 at a lite not a little 78 3 separablie separatelie 88 16 Mules Moles 97 19 in doing is doing 113 24 a gayne a Game 127 31 cloze all clozeth all 128 21 ingeniouslie ingenuouslie â—…51 18 to bee a separate to a separate I. II. 1. Cor. 15. 32 III. â—…atth 1â—… 16. â—…lesiast 1â—… 13 â—…sal 49. 〈◊〉 IV. V. VI. VII I. II. III. IV. V. VI. Iohn 1â—… Iohn 14. 2â—… VII Iohn 5. â—…9 â—…7 〈◊〉 2. Tim. 3. 17. Matth. 15. 9. Cant. 1. 6. In Mich. In Matth. Hâ—…mil 49. In Matth. Hâ—…mil â—…49 Ep. 80. ad Eâ—… sta Medic. Lib. 3. cap. 4. Ad Maximin lib. 3. cap. 13. VIII Ep. 119. ad lanuar IX Eccles. 12. 11. De Unitat. Eccl. cont â—…il Ep. 166. cap. â—… Ad 〈◊〉 cont Ep. 〈◊〉 â—…ib 2. dâ—… Bapt. cont Doâ—…t cap. â—… 1. Iohn 4. 3. 1. Cor. 12. 3. Matth. 7. 21. Iudg. 14. 18. Lib. 31 cap. 3. Lib. 3. cap. 2. Acts 17. 11. X. Iohn 5. â—…9 2. Pet. 1. 19. 2. Tim. 3. 16. Psal. 119. â—… Exod. 32. â—… De Doctrin Christian Lib. 1. Cap. 37. 1. Cor. 2. 14. Matth. 13. 11. Iohn â—… 17. Iohn 10. Proverb â—… â—… Prov. 13. 6. 2. Cor. 4. 4. De doct Chrâ—… lib. 2. cap. 6. â—… XI Cont. Epist. Fundamâ—… XII Lib. de vtilitâ—… De 〈◊〉 â—…el cap. 1. XIII XIV XV. Boni Cathâ—…ci sunt qui fidem integram borâ—… mores servant August toâ—… 4. in Quâ—…stion super Maâ—…th Idem Augustin Tom. 1. lib. dâ—… vâ—…ra religion cap. 7. Coâ—…endar Ecclesia cathâ—…lica sociâ—…tatem qua lumen Christiaâ—… Religionis Scripturarâ—… Regulâ—…que Veritatis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 non abolâ—…tur seipsâ—… postcritatâ—… cogi Papaâ—… prâ—… Antichristo Romaâ—… pro vera Babylonia agnoscere Bernardus super Psal. 91. lib. 4. ad Eugeâ—…m â—… II. Heb. â—…1 1 III. Revel 2. Rev. 12. â—… Thess. 2. Contr. Ep fund De Vnitat Eccl. contr Paâ—…l In Math. homil 49. Revel 16. 12. IV. V. Rom. 15. 1â—… XII Malach. 1. 11. Rev. 1. 6. Hosca 14. 3. Rom. 1â—… 1. Heb. 13. 16. Philip. 4. 18. Heb. 7. 27. â—…el 2. 28. â—… 19. 19. XIII Rom. 10. 1â—… Iob. 1. 7. and 1. Pet. 5. 8. Matth. 23. 1â—… â—…ut yet in it â—…l beâ—… a tenth it shall reâ—…e and shall eaten as a â—…-tree and as Oake whose stance is in â—… when they â—… their leaues â—…he holie seed â—…ll be the subâ—…ce there-of â—…sai 6. 13. â—…onsuetudo â—…tre non debet â—… minus veritas consuetâ—… 〈◊〉 veritate vetuâ—… est errorâ—… 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉 errore sequâ—… veritatem Cyprian ad Pompeâ—… Nova et pâ—…grina censenda sunt quâ—… Christâ—… non docâ—…it nec omnia qua vetera sunt admitâ—…s debent Ibidâ—… I. II. III. IV. V. Revel 13. Revel 1â—… and â—… Revel 2. 13. ad vincâ—… 〈◊〉 48. Revel 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1â—… Revel 12. Revel 13. Revel 8. and Revel 14. and Revel 7. 9. Revel 11. Revel 14. Revel 1â—… 12. Revel 18. â—… â—…es 2. â—…l 13. â—…l 14. VI. VII â—…vel 11. â—… Neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 resâ—…e 〈◊〉 non potest 〈◊〉 Christianâ—… â—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vâ—…ra si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pâ—… times 〈◊〉 tatiâ—… ab 〈◊〉 bus sâ—…pscrit 〈◊〉 illâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arnâ—…ius 3. adversus â—…tes â—…reger Naâ—…n orat 21. dâ—…â—…d Athâ—…nasii â—…ee who proâ—…eth one and â—… same Doâ—…ne of Fayth â—… fellow-partâ—…er of the same â—…ayre but who maintaineth a â—…trarie â—…eth is to bee â—…ounted an â—…versarie alâ—…it even sitting the Chayre â—…d this inâ—…de hath the â—…ne but that â—…er hath the â—…e matter and â—…eth of Succesâ—…n I. II. Defeâ—…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. â—…3 III. Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15. IV. â—…l 13. 11. V. VI. â—…vel 3. 1. Reveâ—…â—… VII Rev. 14 I. â—… 11. â—… 21. Rev. 11. â—… 2. King 6. IX X. â—…I w 24. â—…l 2. Revel 11. and 14 Chrysost. Homil. 46 in Matth. Hee goeth not out of the Church who goeth out bodilie but he who spirituallie leaveth the Fundaments of Ecclesiasticall Trueth Wee went out from them in regard of place but they from vs in regard oâ—… Fayth Wee haue left with them thâ—… Fundamentes oâ—… Walles but they haue left with vs the Fundaments of Scriptures Speciosum quâ—…dem nomen est pacis pulchra est opiâ—… vnitatis sed qâ—… ambigat 〈◊〉 sâ—… Ecclesia atque Evangeliorâ—… vâ—…tam pâ—…ceÌ„ esse quâ—… Christi est Hilar lib. contr 〈◊〉 alios Arriâ—…s Hand illâ—…â—… Ecclesia pacâ—… discâ—… imò 〈◊〉 conseqâ—… fidei loadeâ—… qui a 〈◊〉 perfidia sa segregaâ—… 〈◊〉 tagio crimiâ—… discodâ—… Cypr. 〈◊〉 de Uâ—…tat Ecclâ—… â—… 25. â—… 14. verse â—… II. 5. â—…h 3. 1. III. 2. Kings 3. 1â—… ltiwne who â—…nge â—… â—… a 〈◊〉 de â—… Iâ—… II. â—…th 23. 29. V. â—… I II IV. V. â—… Vâ—… VIâ—… 1. Tim. 4. 3. IX 〈◊〉 ad Himeâ—… cap. 7. X. XI XII XIII XIV XV. XVI Iohn 1â—… 2â—… Matth. 27. 6. Iob 1 â—… Rom. 3. XVII When thâ—… wicked ryse hyde themsel but when thâ—… perish the Riâ—… teous increasâ—… Prov. â—… â—… †Caput nostrum est in coelo sed nâ—… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore Discretum est enim lociâ—… sed junctum â—…ffectious Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever hee bee that affecteth Primacie in Earth shall finde confusion in Heaven neyther shall hee come in the couÌ„t of CHRIST'S Servantes who maketh businesse about Primacie XVIII XIX XX. XXI Revel 9. Thess. 2. and Revel 11. â—…evel 14. and 7. and 9. 4. Thess. 2. 7. 1. Iohn 4. 3. Matth. 13. 2â—… Revel 13. XXII Revel 2. 13. â—…evel 11. 3. Revel 12. 6. 14. â—…evel 14. 1. â—…evel 13. 10. â—…nd 14. 12. â—…evel 11. 8. â—…evel 17. 6. â—…evel 17. 3. Exod. 3â—… Exod. 32. 26. 1 Kings 19. 24. 1 Kings 18. 13. 1 Kings 1â—… 1â—… Defence of Caâ—… Sect. 19. Rev. 1â—… and 2â—… XXIII XXIV XXV XXVI Revel 11. 2. XXVII Revel 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15. 〈◊〉 54. 11. Cant. 5. â—… Revel 12. 1â—… Revel 27. XXVIII Revel 14. 1. Revel 13. 3. 8. 1â—… XXIX Revel 2. 13. XXX Revel 14. 1. Revel 11. XXXI XXXII Lake 11. 5â—… Matth. 23. â—…3 XXXIII XXXIV XXXV â—…vel â—… 2. 2. Sam. 15. 11. Chapter 13. XXXVI XXXVII â—…evel â—…1 Revel 14. Acts 11. 26. Revelâ—…ion 20. Revel 13. 2. Revel 1â—… 3. Revel 13. 1. Revel 17. 3. Revel 2. 14. Revel 2. 20. XXXVIII â—… Thâ—…ss â—… 15. Eâ—…ra 1. 7. 1. Saâ—… 6. â—… XXXIX XL. XLI 〈◊〉 11. and 14. I. II. III.
CHRIST should not haue continued and continued visible There-fore thinges affirmed by you can not consist with the promise of CHRIST made to His Church and her Condition accordinglie and consequentlie you are Haeretickes Thus having as hee thinketh set vs aside from anie Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church next vpon a ground confessed by vs but miserable mistaken by him hee buildeth a Conclusion for the second part of his mayne Assumption which concerneth the Church of Rome thus To giue lawfull Ordination to Pastors is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST But you Protestantes acknowledge That the Ordination given by the Church of Rome was lawfull Ordination There-fore the Church of Rome must bee the Church of CHRIST Doe you not now perceiue Philomathes whither your Man's meaning tendeth by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours with the multitude where-of hee would in a Musicall Moode over-whelme vs Philomathes I now perceiue it well anough you haue reduced all to so cleare and compendious a forme And graunting the Major of his mayne Argument you denyed his Minor And first that part there-of which vpon the Defectes layde agaynst you hee assumed of your Churches For Probation where-of I must confesse that no-thing is brought by him in his second Syllogisme but the all-readie disputed poyntes of Continuance and Visibilitie Where-of you haue sayde â—…o much as wee can not goodlie requyre anie more of you So that except it please you to aunswere vnto his last and appearinglie insoluble Objection agaynst you grounded on your owne Graunt of lawfull Ordination by the Church of Rome I thinke for mee there resteth no other poynt vndiscussed of all our matter Eubulus Of his Objection of lawfull Calling by the Church of Rome and all that hee can possiblie build thereon I shall GOD willing eyther pay him or prooue him al-readie payed more than aboundantlie And al-be-it I haue before al-so spoken of the other poynts yet for more clearing whether hee better prooveth or I deny his mayne Assumption let vs take a short view of his Interrogatours Philomathes Then saye to them and wee will heare gladlie Thus they are You say your Fayth did appeare For the first sixe hundreth yeare But tell mee if thou can When Papistrie first began Eubulus Wee affirme that our Fayth which is the onlie true Fayth hath appeared not sixe hundreth onlie but now all-most sixeteene hundreth yeares though not in alyke evidence at all tymes or to all persones and though not al-wayes perceived even of them to whome it appeared For as the Smoake of the bottomlesse Pitte by degrees prevayled so was true Light the lesse and of the lesser number perceived And yet even in the height of that Evill when a Throne was erected to Satan in the Temple of GOD and Antichrist obtayned not onlie the Court of the Temple but al-so all the holie Citie there were Candle-stickes still in the Temple and good numbers of Sealed Ones following the Lambe on Mount Syon while all the miscarried Earth followed the Beast although none could heare or learne their Song but themselues who in that common Apostasie were bought from the Earth to be the true Citizens of Heaven al-be-it in the Earth yet not of it Now what tyme Poperie did first begin what Man is hee that needeth to make anie question who readeth Paul affirming plainly that the Mysterie of Iniquitie was even then begun to worke or who readeth Iohn avouching that Antichrist was even then in the World That the first beginninges and subtill Insinuation were not commonlie marked it was the LORD His wyse Dispensation and Satan's deepe Deceit for other-wayes it had beene no Mysterie Doeth not the LORD Him-selfe teach vs in Parable That the envyous one did sowe his Tares even with the good Seede in the LORD His owne Fielde and that so covertlie and subtillie whyle the Servauntes were sleeping that all-bee-it mixed with the good Seede and waxing in the midst there-of yet it is not espyed vntill by different Stalke Flowre and Eare it bewray whose Hand did scatter it so as the verie Servants al-be-it by tyme they see it growing and waxing and discerne it to bee adulterous yet they can not tell howe by whome nor what tyme it was sowne And shall Tares I pray you bee counted good Wheat except the moment and first Sower there-of bee showne Your Man doteth and deceiveth in reasoning Sophisticallie from Poperie in the first Seede to Poperie begotten and even from Poperie begotten in the first subtill Insinuation and cunninglie-covered beginninges to Poperie borne and brought foorth and from Poperie even brought foorth but yet still masked vnder fayre and plausible Pretences and swedled vp in the Clouts of GOD His Children to Poperie at length kything openlie Teeth Hornes and Clawes so bewraying evidentlie vvhose Broode it was all-bee-it long and fraudfullie fostered in the midst of GOD His owne House Satan was long in all Subtiltie and deepe Deceit a-bringing out of that Monster as the last and greatest Master-stich of all his Policie and Power and much and darke tyme behooved to bee allotted to the begetting of that great Hercules of the infernall Iupiter First in the Seede Next in the Egge vvhence Satan long and sedulouslie sitting there-on at length hatched out a Serpent which became by tyme a fyrie flying Dragon For the Beast arose out of the Earth slowlie and insensiblie not as that Tages repente doctus in ipso nascendi Articulo You may reade if you list Philomathes a more large Answere to this same vayne Question sent to my selfe by one of your side in my Discoverie of his Dotage there-in Philomathes I will GOD willing reade it But what say you to this VVhere were the Servantes of the LORD That none of them durst speake a word To defende the knowne Trueth c. Eubulus They were even where Satan's Throne was and all-bee-it tollerating spirituall Fornication for which the LORD had some-thing agaynst them yet keeping the NAME of GOD them-selues and informing others in the true knowledge there-of they were in the Temple whyle Antichrist trode downe the Court there-of and the holie Citie and powerfullie dispensing there-in both Light and Grace to true Christians and having Vengeance in readinesse agaynst their Enemies they were in the VVildernesse both fedde and feeding others They were on Mount Syon with the Lambe both worshipping purelie them-selues and leading others there-in though none eyther heard or learned their Song but the sealed Virgines whyle the Beast miscarried all the Earth to commit spirituall Fornication Thus they were all-wayes and both spake the Trueth and for the Trueth But the blynde and stupified Sectatours of the Beast neyther saw nor heard them For howe soone the Beast of the bottomlesse Pitte perceived them then was The Patience of the Saynctes and then Blessed were the Dead which died in the LORD then lay they vnburied in the Streetes of that