for the worlds conversion carried any written Gospell at all wth them wch might be made by themselves much less is it to be thought that they staied to write out theirs having their own breasts so well fraught wth all that and far more than they found ther written especially considering that two of the Evangelists were but their pupills and disciples Nay before those Gospels were written out and completed especially that of S. John the Church of God was spread up and down the world and flourisht in all the duties of Christianity By wch it may appear that even the written Gospell is neither it self necessary to the being of the Church nor the reading or expounding of a text the essentiall work of Christianity As for the Epistles wch be the other part of the new Testament written by S. Paul and others These t is well enough known were pend a long while after the Church of God was perfectly formd and grown up in most parts of the known world in particular after those Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus Galatia Thessalonica and the rest unto whom they are addrest were perfected in all the essentialls of Christian faith and they were occasiond merely accidentally upon the creeping in of some disorders and errours in those places contrary to the tradition of faith they had received as may soon appear to him that reads and understands the tenour of those spirituall Epistles So then the Church is antecedent to her Scriptur and altogether independant theron either for her being or profession helps of memory as all these writings be do presuppose both the memory and the things to be remembred before those helps were brought to light And so the reading of these Scriptures or hearing them expounded can no wise be the essentiall work of Christian religion or the totall exercise therof but somthing that is altogether independent of them more ancient than they be and that is more intrinsecally a worship homage adoration and service of the most high God than hearing or looking upon words and syllables can be I make no doubt but the whol Scriptur or writing of the new Testament both Epistles and Gospells was merely casuall and accidentall For I find it long ago foretold by the Prophets that the law and government of the Messias should in this differ from the Law of Moses that Moses Law was all committed to paper but the doctrin of Iesus should be writ in the heart and entrailes of his Church You may see one place in the Prophet Ieremy c. 31.33 wch the Apostle in his Epistle to the Hebrewes applies unto Christ our Lords dayes Heb. 10.16 and S. Paul doth not obscurely allude unto it in one of his letters he wrote to Corinth c. 3.3 Indeed to imprint in the churches breast a law from wch she should never deviat is in my judgment a greater argument of divinity than any written Gospell could afford The things wch Solon Numa Lycurgus Draco and other such like men contrived and dictated for the good of their common wealths did much commend their gravity vigilance and wisedome and elevated them above other men not above manhood Moses himself the most profound judicious Lawmaker the world ever had by the excellency of his written Laws hath merited the title of a divine and sacred legislatour but he is known to be a man by his hand-writing and the paper he wrote on He is a God that writes on the velin of the heart characters indelible unto eternity The Law of Christ onely is written not wth ink but wth the spirit of the living God not in tables of stone but in fleshly tables of the heart I do also verily think that the religion wch the Son of God deliverd to his church was neither commanded by him to be written nor yet ever intended either by the Euangelists or other of those primitiv writers to be totally set down under the notion of a rule of faith altho so much as ther is of it drawn principally for the use of devotion and charity be a rule of faith also What the occasion might be that moved the four Euangelists to write their compendious Gospells by the little learning I have I could never yet assuredly gather altho I remember I have read somthing thereof in a learned latin book made by a friend of mine called Systema fidei put forth some few years ago wherein be very many things of excellent learning worthy of the Authour but I have not now the book at hand Wt occasion moved S. Paul to write his Epistles unto Rome Corinth and other places is manifest enough and I shall afterward declare it when I shall come to discover the religion of the Apostles and Euangelists and make it appear that they were all papists and of the very self same religion Catholiks be of at this day All this put together that Christ himself neither wrote any thing nor comanded any thing to be written yea gave notice that he would use his speciall prerogative of legislatourship and write his law in hearts promising to animate the body of his Church wth his own spirit wch should lead them into all truth and that the church was disperst over the earth before any Christian writting was made wch was afterwards drawn to confirm and strengthen the faith and devotion it found already planted All this being true it follows apparently that hearing or reading or preaching upon a text is not the great capitall work of Christian Religion Indeed t is childishnes to think that God unto whom all prostration adoration all homage service and worship both of the outward inward man is more than due should be sufficiently served wth a little labour of the lips or ears when a man thinks good so to do Preaching is indeed necessarily antecedent to Christian faith yet it onely disposes unto furrher actions as may easily appear both by autority of Scriptures wch exclaime bitterly against such as hear and go no further and also by the very natur of hearing and all kind of exhortation wch ever tends to somthing besides it self For who ever heard onely to hear and no further who but our mad reformers ever preacht onely to be heard And how can speaking on one side and hearing on the other complete the whol duty of man to his God as if one were nothing but tongue and ear or had receivd nothing from him but those two organs Tell me Madam ingenuously Do not you think you have sufficiently done your duty to God if you go but forth once a Sunday to hear a Sermon and if you read a chapter or two in a week day this is nothing else in effect altho by your favour you do not think you self bound under sin to either but if you like the weather or the parson pleases or your clothes be neat and handsom then you will go forth to church if not you will stay at home if you find your self
put both the Byshopricks into one and gave him beath together Wine and wife are to mee as Bath and Wells Let me have beath as the Scotchman said VIC Go your wayes go Wer it not that you cast a glance of your eye now and then upon me when you ar in your pulpet you would be but a dry preacher T is even so Madam LA. Even so be it THIRD DIALOGUE VIC LO I com according as it is written Psa 40.9 Dear Madam good morrow to your Lap. It seemes I am the first to day somewhat earlier than ordinary but so it is written Thou shalt heare my voyce betimes in the morning Psa 5. O Sr Harry wellcom wellcom you could not stay long from us when both the spirit and the bride say Com Rev. 22. I le be the spirit for once especially when I am got up in a morning out of my bed And why not I pray you sith the very ruler of darknes when people are got up for conformities sake transforms himself into an angel of light 2. Cor. 11.14 KN. Health and happines attend my noble Lady this day and ever It pleases my eye Madam to behold the chear of your countenance this morning wch seems to promis to my purposes a good succes LA. I doubt not of good successe both to my wishes and your own if you will but relent a little of that hardnesse and obstinacy is in a manner naturall unto Papists I would not Sr Harry proceed so rigorously as to request you all at once to abjure the whole body of popery but to let fall at first the super fluous parts of it that do hāg looser on and be of least concernment and use and to stand so disposed as to think obstinacy unhandsom in any thing Papists say truely that they are built on a rock I think all their whole church is rock for one may as soon wth his teeth bite off a piece of marble as wrest from them any of their very least opinions so firm tenacious and obstinat ye be all of you Nay to save a whole Kingdom you will relent nothing at all What a masse of money did Harry the eigth spend for six yeares together in Embassadours and agents in Italy France Spain and Germany to procure the testimonys of Universityes and yet he was not able either for love or money although he were a magnanimous noble Prince to purchase so much as the hands or consent of any one University for the lawfulnesse of his affection to his sweet Lady Anne Bullen And the popes Cardinals although they received no small weight of good English gold from our Princely Harry insomuch that they could have wisht he had had his fill of her yet would they not be brought by any means to say he might lawfully do it Your Popes themselvs tho I confes they have been many of them very holy and learned personages yet som of them hav been known to be as bad as the worst and yet even thes have been as Zealous of the integrity of their faith as the greatest Saints and would sooner do ill than say it might be done Simony Pride Gluttony known and acknowledgd sins these some of them would act of their own accord but all the power of earth summond together should not force any of them to abrogat one article of their faith or traditions though it were but the sprinckling of holy water I read not long ago in an authentick story that the nobls and Prelats of England perceiving the resolution rage of K. Harry upon the forementiond affront certified the Pope by a privat Embassadour that if he did not some what relent and condescend to the Kings desires the whole frame of Catholik Religion in England wch already crackt would be utterly overthrown the nobility disgraced monasterys ruind Byshops deposed thousands imprisond and perhaps martyrd and the whole land undon To wch the pope replied frantick man as he was though the whole body of Christs church should be destroyed yea tho heaven and earth should mingle together in its old Chaos of confusion yet would he not declare that lawfull wch in conscience he thought was not so What a crabbed perversnesse was this He was certainly no Gentleman S ◠Harry that would not be perswaded tho heaven and earth should come together to chang his judgment KN. To be obstinat and heady in our own proper opinions is oftimes unseasonabl and unhandsom But the tradition wch the Church preservs is the very depositum of our B. Saviour whether it concern faith or manners practicall or speculativ beleef and no conceptions of privat or human judgments and therfor in al honesty to be preserved entire by the trustee of our Lord who committed it unto his church wth this caution that not one jota or apex therof should be altered And therfore that Pope who would not declare against his conscience although heaven and earth should com together did no more than what his Lord and Maister had said before him Heaven and earth shall pass away my word shall not pass not one jota orapex therof Luc. 21. And it was a doubl madnes in Harry the eigth doing himself evil to expect the church of God should say it was good Nor be there Madam in Faith any superfluous parts but the whole body of it hangs so cōcatenated and cemented together that the taking away of any one particl would ruin the whole fabrick nor will you find in faith any portion less strong than another but al equally invincible Som may be more leading points wherupon others depend and more materiall in their quality but in respect of our beleef the least hath as much firmnes of truth as the greatest And wtsoever sophistry may seem to shake any one apply the like engin to any other and in shall do as much that is to say in very truth nothing at al whatsoever it may appear to do in self beguiling minds Wherfore Madam bereaving me of any of my faith you rob me of all for it is an uncontroulable rule in faith what the Apostle also does as in a good sense it may be applied unto manners Qui delinquit in un◠factus est omnium reus Jam. 2.10 He that fails in one is made guilty of all This you would easily understand if you would consider how we receivd our faith and Christian doctrin For it was all equally handed to us at once and that from the autority of one and the same originall and it was extant in the world before any Scriptures were pend And these sacred Scripturs and other pious Books and also all generall councells that hav ever been celebrated in the Church were formed afterwards directed swayed rectified and ordered by this rule of Traditional doctrin committed to the Church and kept by her So that issuing conformably from one and the same sours all points of faith have an equall proportion of truth however they may differ in their own
materiall weight The intrinsecall valiew of some articles may infer more of necessity and obligation to an explicit beleef and practis but the least and smallest points do wth as much right as the greatest exclude a positiv misbeleef I am not bound to know or practis all things of the churches doctrin but I am bound not to disallow condemn or reject any of her traditionall Christianity has been equally handed from age to age unto us He that formally rejects any thing of this as fals doth vertually deny all the rest sith one and the same veracity deliverd all No mans privat reason invented any part of my beleef and therfor no mans reason can reject it Nay the highest points ar oftimes most contingent and consequently the least capable of a proof as Gods incarnation passion and resurrection and if mans conceits be once permitted to intermedle determin of the lesser or greater probability of points and cast away at his pleasur what himself thinks unlikly he will undoutedly go on from one negation to another till all be overthrown It may chance that in discoursing I may say somtime that all the articles of our Catholik faith be taken out of Scriptur wherin they be implicitly contained But in this I do but speak wth the vulgar and according to the capacity of hearers and t is indeed true in this sens for that all Catholik beleef is conformable to those sacred writings But in very truth to speak with wise men as well as we do think and ever shall beleev wth them the Scripturs themselvs those I mean principally wch make up the new Testament were drawn by the rule of our traditionall doctrin explicit faith and not our explicit faith gathered out of them This may appear by part of my former discours wherein I declared that the penning of Scripturs was meer accidentall and casuall and that all our traditionall faith was more ancient than Scriptur and altogether independent of it So that Scriptur and tradition go indeed hand in hand together as a joint rule of faith yet so as that Scriptur gives tradition the right hand as being its elder and judg of it self aswell as as cojudg wth it of all other doctrins For both Gospells and Epistles written in Apostles name were so far approved or rejected by the Church however they came equally armed wth Apostolicall names prefixt before them as they were found consonant or dissonant to the churches tradition For ther were more Gospells written than the four we hav and far more Epistles than thos the church admitted to her cannon And this is the reason why the Apostles themselvs and Disciples met together to try whether the preachings and writings of all their missionaries were punctually conformable to the tradition they had received from wch meeting S. Paul himself though an Apostle not of men neither by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father Gal. 1.1 Yet would he not be exempted from that meeting After three years saith he I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode wth him fifteen dayes Gal. 1.18 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem wth Barnabas and took Titus wth me also And I went up by revelation and comunicated unto them that Gospell wch I preach among the Gentiles but privatly to them wch wer of reputation least by any means I should run or had run in vain Gal. 2.1.2 By wch I think it may be gathered that the church is above the Scriptur and of greater autority than either Paul or Barnabas or any wtsoever single man and member of the Church sith she judges every ones doctrin to the approbation or rejection of it For a judg is more noble than the thing wch is subject to his censur the rule than the thing examined and ruled by it and to giv an approbation is in that formality more excellent than to receiv it Neither was ever any generall councell cald together to teach the church her doctrin But upon the rising of heresys judging by the rule of their tradition the Prelats in councell confirmd the Catholiks in the way they found them in and declared against hereticall innovations that they might desist from further commotion This rule of tradition found in the hands practis of Christians disperst over the earth left them by their forfathers could not fail so long as it was found universally agreeing in the whole Catholik body wch is animated by the spirit of infallibility especially being strengthened by testimony of Apostolicall writings wch were nothing but a part of the churches tradition coppied out or the fathers that succeeded them or other monuments that were yet remaining amongst them As for example the Christians found an injunction of praying for the dead upon the very wals windows gravstones and monuments of their deceased forfathers commended also unto them both by teachers their living books and by books their dead teachers and all children found their parents in the beleef and practice of it And therfor it was concluded that it could be no other than as it was thē esteemd an article of pure Christianity sith the whol body of Christians then present held it so their forgoers and fathers deliverd it sacred Scriptures sufficiently insinuated it Catholik writings and monuments confirmd and comended it unto them So that Madam that piece of popery you would take from me being a part of this Catholik tradition will be as hardly wrested from me as the Gospell it selfe wch the same tradition has deliverd as a coppy conformable for so much as it is unto it selfe the first and universall rule of faith by wch pape himselfe and all generall councells are guided so subject unto it that they can act nothing against it as may appear by the proceedings of the Catholik church from its very first birth and uprising unto this present day Pope Iohn the 22d. a learned man much given to reading found in many places of the Greek and Latin fathers as also in texts of sacred Scriptur as he conceived that the souls of Christians deceased went released out of purgatory thence into some place of repose on this side heaven and eternall bliss where they expected the consummation of their number that all the Catholik body might at the end of the world enter paradis together This opinion by the multitud of autoritys and arguments appeard unto him so probable that he sent it to some Christian Universitys to have their judgment if that were not indeed Christian beleef But they rose up against it and rejected it as dissonant to tradition For the Pape tho he be Overseer of the whole church yet being but one single man he cannot of himself discern the universality of a tradition so well as the whole Catholik body may do and therfor he never defines faith but with that Body conciliarly assembled and if himself i th interim should light upon an opinion how probable soever it
The Reclaimed PAPIST OR The Process of a Papist Knight reformd by a Protestant Lady wth the assistance of a Presbyterian Minister and his wife an Independent And the whole Conference wherby that notable reformation was effected 1655. The PROLOG To my Noble and ever honoured Friend JOHN COMPTON Esquire FInding my self unable to master the trouble and alteration wherwith I was surprisd upon the loss of two Friends about Christmas last whom I had reason to esteem and severall other afflictions that came upon me all at once I took the advice after a few days disquiet to divert my thoughts by som unusuall emploiment which might turn the stream not choak up the source giving work enough to entertain my mind not tire it being both substantiall and yet an easy exercise Walking therfor all alone in your garden I fell into remembrance of this present subject wch liked me well becaus my head was full of the story and passages therof that it would prove easy to me on that account to write it and yet being unaccustomed to make books this being the first I should be sufficiently taken up therby if not in the inventing of matter yet at least in the ordering of words to the exclusion of unprofitable passion wch would otherwise creep in and to much annoy my mind The conceit has proovd right For at two months end wherin my mind as busy as any Bee was wholly taken up in inventing contriving writing and reviewing these Dialogs by that time I had fully finished them I perceivd my passion wholly allayd and my spirit in its wonted temper And now I see clearly and do publikly proclaim that every passion is in the comand of reason and that industry both prevents sin and subdues sorrow The whole work consists of three parts wherin nine arguments ar handled in each part three T is disputed I. Whether innovation of Christian doctrin may be made by man or hath ever been made by the Papist II. Whether it be prudence to cast away our explicit articles of beleef and betake our selvs to the Bible for our faith and whether hearing and preaching of the Word of God be the capitall and essentiall work of Christian religion III. Whether the church may for the quiet of some person or nation comply wth opinions she would otherwis dislike of and wt opinions have happed at times contrary to popery IV. Whether it be sufficient to salvation onely to beleev in Christ as the unum necessarium V. Whether the articles propounded in the oath of abjuration as the popes supremacy real presence purgatory worship of saints and merit of good works be plausible doctrin VI. Whether the said oath may be honestly taken by any man upon earth Christian Iew or pagan whether in al every controversy of religion there may be given one generall rule against wch no sectary can except that shall notwthstanding conclude infallibly for the Catholik wthout turning a leaf of Scriptur councells or fathers and wt may be the grounds can retard a papist from reformation VII Whether the Apostls and Evangelists wer all papists that is to say such Catholiks as be at this day VIII Whether any one text of Scriptur may justly be brought out of the old or new Testament against the Catholik church or any one article of her faith and whether reason may possibly frame an argument to convince a papist or remove him from the rock wheron he is seated IX Whether each particular opinion or positiv article of popery rejected by the reformation will not seem to right reason indifferently stated if it allow of any religion at all more rationall and pious than the contrary negativ These be the principal things disputed in my nine conferences wch be so ordered that they have not dependence or connexion one wth another but each several Dialogue is a book by it self Some doctours have thought that the sacred Dialogues called the book of Job are Historically true for the ground and subject of the Discours as that ther was such a person as Iob brought into such a dejected condition set upon and checkt by three neighbour Disputants there named and the like But the words and tenour of their speech this they think was ordered by the sacred Penman according the property of the persons proportionable to his own drift and purpos not so much heeding to set down word for word what they did say as what they might say The same is to be thought of these Dialogs for the ground and occasion of them is reall History A papist Knight offering love to a Protestant Lady could not have audience but under condition of changing his religion For that purpos she brought him a Divine accompanied wth his wife a witty woman to confer wth him and by their help reclaimd him But my Vicares was you may think more pregnant in her gnomeys texts and doxes than I have suffered her to be in this literall accoast wherin she stands like a saltsellar at a banquet only for a grain or two of seasoning for I was loth to have my book overswoln wth her witty vanity I was somwhile in doubt whether I should let her com in at all or no but becaus in the last Dialog she alone wth the Lady in the Ministers absence reclaimd the Knight I had too much prevaricated from the truth of my story wrongd her honour if I had quite left her out Besides sith the Minister his wife wer commilitores in this imployment I could not well separat whom not onely the common wealth but even their common warfar had united Quos comune homine genus telluris Origo Deinde thorus junxit tandem ipsa periculajungunt That all the world may see and acknowledg how necessary it is for parsons to marry to the end they may have a fellow labourer in the harvest and when the good man is sick his wife may be ready at hand to supply the place You will surely love my Vicares when you meet wth her for she is in a right description a featous body and soul linkt together wth words for the good of somthing The work being ended so much as I mean to put forth at this time comes running voluntary and of its own natur as you see Sr unto your friendly hands wher it doubts not but to find a favourable entertainment both by the candour of your own natur and your particular good will to the Authour severall wayes exprest If it be so happy as to give you content I shall applaud the evill that occasiond me so much good as indeed all crosses of this life if they be well managed do operat unto further good and benefit than would have happed wthout them It will be to me a double comfort by these few exercitations both to have overcom my own trouble and also to entertain a friend I do so highly respect Your many civilitys and much kindnes towards me clayms a
power and captivity offaith To conclud the word and will and works of God are absoluty superiour to every created thing and not to be alterd or innovated by man nor to receive either diminution or increas from him and consequently the religion he has reveald to the sons of men of his owne free love and bounty is to remain sacred and untoucht by any creatur how ever man may domineer over his owne inventions to perfect and mend them at his pleasur What is invented and made by man may by man be either betterd or made wors at his pleasur by what change he pleases But Gods works are altogether above his creaturs reach and his will is unch angable He made all things perfect and if he did not who is he can add to their perfection Children begot by men do by mans help and direction increas daily till they come to perfect age but Adam created imediatly by God was in all liklihood made at first in his full perfection and growth LA. I must Sr Harry cut of the thread of your discours that the Doctour who hath in civility forborne to interrupt you may have his time to speak VIC And indeed that is fulfild in me that is written I held my peace even from good things I was dumb wth silence and my heart was hot wthin me whils I stood musting the fire burned then spake I wth my tong Ps 39. MIN. Well Sr Harry this your discours is all good and orthodox but it maks so much to my purpos against your self that I could not my self have contrived a mor convenient battery against popery For if you consider right it rather confirms than destroys our reformations Religion is wthout all doubt above man and not subject to any vassalage of his fansy But you say wth all and that truly that what man does man may undo And ther 's the point Now popery in the pure and formall sens and acceptation of the word signifys onely that fardell of human additions superadded by the ignorance and superstâ—tion of men to the pure and sincer religion which the Lord taught us and is therfor a sacriledg not to be suffred in the Christian world but to be taken away and severd from the sincerity of divin truth like chaff from the corn so that our question is not whether you may add unto faith or we take from it wt is added or taken away being granted on both sides to be a part of faith and yet put in or out by our selvs for t is agreed upoÌ„ by us both that neither of thes things may be don without sacriledg But whether it be lawfull for us to reform or take away from the body of divin faith wt you hav impiously added thereunto of your own and obtrud upon us as divin revelation being indeed but human superstition This is the thing wch Luther and Calvin began to do and by other particular persons and parlaments is daily mor and more effected not only wthout sacriledg but wth much comendation of piety so that our reformations ar indeed diminishments not of Gods religion but of mans superstitions we take from the church not the stones or rafters but the rubbish mire and filth wch is brought in by slovenly autiquity even burdensom to the purity of faith Reforming religion we touch nothing at all we meddl wth nothing that is Gods but leaving al that untoucht we cast out the ordur of human traditions whereby the fincerity of faith was defaced and so we give to every one his own that wch in Cesars to to Cesar and that wch is Gods to God the legends of Damasus Gregory Anaclet and I know not who these being the dreams of his doating predecessors we cast forth to the Pope and popish to put up in their archivs the pure tabls of the law remaining in the ark of the Testament wth uswch being once happily purgd we purpos ever to conserv underfiled If it be a cursed thing to add unto the word of God as Papists hav don t is blessednes to tak it away again VIC I may say to thee sweet heart as David said to Abigail Blessed be the Lord wch sent the this day and blessed be thy advice and blessed be thou who hast kept me this day from shedding of blood For in very deed except thou hadst spoken this wise word wch shall suffice at this time I had brought a reason that had destroyd the Papists at a blow even every one of them that pisseth against the wall 1 King 25. KN. T is the good Dr agreed on all sides that nothing is to be added unto or taken from the word of God and our divine faith first delivered You say also that your reformations tak away continually some less som more but onely such things as be of human invention affirming this action not onely lawfull but comendabl This is the sum of your reply That the articles of Christian religion rejected by the reformation and by you called Popery be no human additions I should easily make it appear if I should run over the whole body of them and show from point to point that each parcell and particl thereof is equally ancient and divine wch would soon be evinced if the autority of those Scripturs you pretend to admit the joint acknowledgment and practis of all times and testimony of all antiquity both councells fathers and doctours and severall other monuments left in the Christian world which be greater than any we have to evince that William the Conquerour once raignd here in England may sufficiently prov them to be such But this cours I intend not to enter upon at least at this time becaus we ar but yet in generalls and besides this work is already done to my hands so magisterially solidly copiously by many renowned writers especially in the Latin tong that it were superfluous to insist theron had I either time or place or will to do it If you will not beleev them I have little hopes to prevail over so prodigious and obstinacy wch after such ample satisfaction given will say still that Catholik REligion so much as loos men listed 〈…〉 superstition and inventions of men I have morover one general ruâ—… 〈◊〉 I reserv for another discours to demoâ—â—â—…re that that Catholik faith you call popery â—s truly divine For if you do but read your own antiquities or the records of any other Christian kingdom you shall find that the conversion of our own and all other nations from idolatry and paganism was effected by that Catholik faith wch at one and the same time brought into the land both the news of Christ to the ear and the sight of the Crucifix to the eye both the necessity of faith and the merit of works both God in the fulnesse of time incarnat in the blessed virgin and incorporat really in the Eucharist both feast daies and lents both the popes supremacy and Priests power the news
one another whence is it that we all conspire to hate condemn and rail against the Catholik Church having as much cause to inveigh against one another and let her alone as to rail against her alone and applaud one another This is a shrewd sign we ar all rebels to that one Church and hav no truth amongst our selvs For one truth is opposit to twenty falshoods and these falshoods however they be contrary to one another that one primary truth still stands against them all Catilin and Cethegus and the other conspiratours against Rome their mother City could fall out one amongst another tho they jointly resisted her and she as indifferently confronted them all Besids these reformers must needs be liars all of them if we may beleeve any of them For as they did most vehemently inveigh against that part of popery wch themselves rejected so did they tooth and nail defend the purity of that portion they still retaind wch by the succeeding reformers was deeply censurd and condemnd And so from the very first to the last they still condemned one another for wt they retaind as the Church of God condemnd them all for wt they rejected Who shall unfold this riddle or tell me in wch reformation the truth lies Surely in non of them if by the mouth of two witnesses a truth may be established for ther is ever the Catholik Church and one reformation against the judgment of any other reformation every sect hath still the Church against her for one and some other sect if not all other reformations besides Ar all thes men sent from God for one and the same thing yet all fail in doing it and al condemnd by one another in the deed Still wt any one of them casts away is popery and what he keeps is the sincere word and will of God tho not only the Church that censurs them all together but even all other reformations say the contrary So that if we put all judgments together ther will result thus much That the Catholik on the one side all sectaries of severall opinions on the other they be all Papists and differ but secundum magis minus So that the Roman is a Catholik Papist and all the rest be heretick Papists but Papists all For every sect is condemnd by his fellowes of some popery and the Church as the source of all And indeed all sects do retain som thing more or les of that religion and faith wch our land received at first from the pape and wtsoever positive doctrin they still keep they had it onginally from him At least they keep all of them the Bible eyther whol or in part wch is the great book of the pope wch he ever sends wth his missioners since he orderd and canonised it to any nations conversion as conformable to the great rule of Christian faith wch is tradition And consequently if the Papist be a child of Antichrist all sectaries are no other so far as they be Christian or have any thing of Christianity amongst them onely wth this difference that the mark of the beast if he be a beast is lesse in som than it is in others but t is in the for heads of all so many as be baptised and beleeve in Christ by his means and missioners and by the Sacraments and precepts they had originally from him VIC The Lord shield us from the fiend of darknesse the pope upon my forehead the Bible the popes and all we Papishes confute him husband some way or other if this be true hee l not fear texts at all LA. S. Harry you have brought things about very strangly Can you think ever to perswade us that we have any thing of popery in us KN. Assuredly you have so much as is not yet clipt of by reformation be it more or les And this discours I have faln upon insensibly to mitigat the strang rancour against Catholik religiō wch people conceiv by contagion of custome and not any true knowledg they have thereof and the pleasing opinion each one fosters of the reformation himself is part of Take the four generall opinions that be now in England the Catholick the Protestant Presbyterian and independent Consid er seriously and you shall find that as they be antecedent in time so still the succeeding is but a deficiencie from the foregoer and the last the greatest negation of the positions laid by the first yet still what he holds positively he hath it from him and the first wch is the Catholik had all his whole positive faith from the Pope as himself professes and our own histories witnesse part whereof was cut of by the Protestant as the Presbyterian after him took away some things wch the Protestant still retaind and the Independent others wch the Presbyterian kept He is very ignorant in history that discerns not by his reading how the Catholik now existent in England retains universally all the points of faith wch were brought hither into England at its conversion from paganisme by S. Austin and other good children of blessed S. Bennet sent hither to that purpose by Pope Gregory eleaven hundred years ago concerning priests altars sacrifices the reall presence merit of good works consecrations pennances purgatory lents pilgrimages popes supremacy and the rest to the least iota of wt they then received Nor hath he any parcell of faith either over or under wt he received then so that the Catholik is a papist in print and a legitimat child of that venerable pastour A thousand years after the Saxes or English-mens conversion and the unanimous profession of the Catholik faith all that while in an unluky ho wt rises Luther who having been himself born and and bred up in the bosome of the Church through the instigation of Satan and his two instruments pride and lust apostatised from the Church and made a reformation as he called it wherunto the worst of people at first adhered altho now both wise and honest minded people go along wth it not so much by their own choise as unfortunate custome This protestancy took away at once almost three parts of the Churches practicall doctrin retaining the speculative Within the compasse of ten years it had run into severall divisions or subreformations in Germany Holland Switzerland and Geneva Upon Harry the eights schism and afterward these people of severall Reformations cam flocking over into England by whos severall directions to pleas all parties was made up that miscellan of the English protestancy by rejection of severall points of the Catholik faith then in our land some according to Luther others according to Calvin Swinglius the rest together wth an establishment of an apish prelacy in stead of the Catholik one wch had beene overthrown for the security of the state and of the fond Church they had then set up the other few remainds of our Catholik faith now wholly dismembred yet standing as the base of this
will or no printing and preaching presse and pulpet Mr Iohn an oaks Mr Prinne cannot utter any thing but truth Innovations papists do nothing else but make innovations they cannot eat or drink or sleep but the must do it and mischief is their very life LA. God mend all SECOND DIALOGUE LA. I have Sr Harry brought you here again your souls phesitian to understand the symptoms of your diseas and apply an agreeable remedy therunto KN. I shall Madam as well as I may both declar my sicknes and respectfully receiv his remedy LA. Com doctour you look blith upon t to day I take it for a good sign VIC And I am glad for sooth to see my husband cherfull for sadnes as it is written dries up the bones Pro. 17. MI. I bring you good news Sr Harry The work of reformation we perswade you unto is as easily effected as t is to cast of a heavy cloack in a burning midsommers day All popish practises as I in order shall name them to you do but you in the same method reject them and you shall in one half hour becom a Protestant in three quarters a Presbyterian in a whol howre an Independent and so be reformed at your leysur and wth eas KN. You say not all this while what shall guid me in this action MIN. The word of God that guides you Sr to the will of God KN. The means and end of his motion being coincident a man may well hope for an undisturbd tranquillity in the period MIN. Wt can disturb you Sr being built upon the rock of the bible wth more or les hold thereon according to the natur of the reformation KN. Wch reformation has the best hold MIN. Let them look to that I le not meddle wth those disputes KN. I have both read and heard of the rock of the Church but the rock of the bible you are the first man I know ever used the phrase MIN. The Church and her doctrin be all one the Churches doctrin and scriptur is the same and so the rock of the church and rock of the bible cannot be two severall things VIC Well said sweet heart This is now a little above me But so it is written The husband is above his wife and she shall be under and subject to him Gen. 3. MIN. The summe of all is Betake your self to the pure scripture And t is enough KN. Ther is much talk of Scriptur and all the sectaries have ever risen tho never so many or never so opposit one to another have still pretended it nay the devill urged his temptation wth a scriptum est Matt. 4. so that I feare the proposall of this either means or rest will prove but wast of time Give me leav to tell you that the messenger of the Gospell of peace who by a mission from pope Eleutherius converted the Brittons from paynisme to Christian faith in the second age of the church and the other from pope Gregorius who reduced the Saxes or English in the fift gave them all their religion as well explicitly in all the articles of their Christian faith as implicitly in the bible they deliverd into their hands wherin those articles by incidentall occasion lay casually coucht Now to take away all those explicite articles drest and prepared allready to our hands and give us the bible is the same thing as to take from men all the gold and silver already coined wth so much care and industry of princes and show them a mine whence such things may be digd wthout affording eyther work men skilfull in the art or instruments for the purpos Imagin in such a case wt disorder and confusion would happen when thousands of people are gatherd together about a mountain none verst in digging or fitted wth instruments for it none accustomed to the hollowes of deep earth none skild in finding out the vein none expert in discerning the oare or to melt it into bullion or stamp it into coin And yet all of them equally conceyted as undertaking ignorance uses to be and indifferently judging and condemning the works of each other It cannot otherwise happen in such a case but that some should tumble into precipices some be somtherd in the earth below some after much toil bring forth a handfull of clodded earth lead or iron oare and perhaps a slat or peble in the stead of mettall and if haply any one meet wth the right he will either not heed it as not appearing to be such or loose it in the allay melting or stamp In fine where so much curiosity and art is required in the manifold degrees of procedur yet none had by any and profest by all to the disparagement of one another wt can result from such an attempt but disorder nois confusion and hazard emulation quarrell amongst themselves Nov can they ever effect any thing to the generall agreement liking of all or repair the coin that is destroyd This is in all points our very condition when the Christian articles of faith wrougt out and stampt for us and deliverd us by our primitiv pastours according as they had received them from Jesus Christ the prime Inventour and Work-man of our faith are principitously annuld and the Bible put in mens hands to dig out from thence by their own skill and industry the results of their religion Nay the case here is so much the more desperat in that the common people wth the tradition of the Bible receiv this caution from the reformers that they take heed of such and such abrogated articles of popery wch as they do ever and anon appear in the Scripturs they hav to peruse so are they indeed the very pith and marrow of that sacred Book and the golden metall they are onely to seek for So that being left unto their own shallow judgments if it were then improbable they should ever light upon the whol sincere truth of good now being adviced and prejudiced against it altho they should happly light upon it t is impossible wth that prejudice they should ever embrace and adhere unto it That the articles of Catholik religion abrogated by reformers were all stampt out for us by our primitiv Pastours and have gon currant in the whol Christian world from the beginning to this day hath been proved a hundred times over and over by learned Catholik divines both for the generall in each particular And that it is an impious tiranny to take them all away and put people to seek new out of the Bible I think it will easily appear to an understanding man if he do but consider the way-wardnes of mans will prone to evill and averst to good such especially as is annext to bitternes and pains the fallacy of his fansy and weaknes of his understanding wch we cannot but perceiv to fail even in things that be in our very senses and that both by deficiency and errour both by want of apprehension and
said and done wt is to be thought and beleevd wt is to be hoped and feard wt concerns God and his creaturs wt angels and men wt earth and heaven wt our creation and redemption wt the beginning and end of things First where is the order and method to find out these things You will find that the story and doctrinall part goes hand in hand together wch is not the ordinary way of teaching If I peruse the story of Gospell by it self I shall scarcely find it answerable to my expectation whiles I find mention onely of one howr of Christs birth and not a word more for twelv years together and then but one single action of his appearing in the publick Schools and not a word again of his whole life till almost twenty years after and then onely some works he did in publick for the space of about three years so his death wch is far less than I should expect or desire to know And the doctrine our Lord deliverd is no more of it set down than what he spake incidentally in fields and streets and publick places the three years space of his publik appearance and not a word of any thing he taught his Schollers or Disciples in particular on set purpose without reference to publick speeches which was without all doubt the main doctrin primarily intended both by the Maister his disciples and most copiously explicated Moreover those publick speeches of or Lord we have set down in Gospell they are deliverd us but under certain generall heads and brief notes wthout any order or connexion at all that can appear to any the subtillest wit that is Our Lords Sermon on the mount is the largest piece of doctrin we hav of his deliverd at one time and most heavenly and divine it is like its authour but he that reads the sift sixt and seaven Chapters of S. Mathew where t is set down shall desire connexion And indeed the holy Evangolists collecting their Gospels as brief memorialls did it wthout all doubt the best way And t is sufficient and far better than if all had been set down in that order and fulness of discours our Lord deliverd it For the few separated notions of Christian morality set down in Gospell wer enough to give testimony to the traditionall doctrine the Apostles had methodically received from their master for his Church Finally those speeches of our Lord recorded in Gospell be only some brief sentences and parables questions and replies to interrogatories wch be far short to a whol body of divinity tho abundantly enough for a Church in whos bowels the Messias would imprint his law and intire will It appears then both by the mingling of the story and dogm together by the few parcells of the history it self by the want of that method and connexion in the dogmaticall part wch our dull capacities require for learning and the omission of great many things we should need to be imformd in far more amply than we can find it set down in Scriptur concerning the use of Sacraments government of the Church and a thousand difficulties rising about the exercises of charity and faiths I say it appears by these and such like things that the Scripture of the New Testament was never pend on any purpose to teach us our religion but rather to confirm and ratify by incidentall passages therein such religion and doctrin as should be deliverd by the Church the prime and sole mistresse of faith after God and in place of him in all clearnes of methodical beleef and practise To you saith our Lord to his Apostles Luc. 8.10 it is given to known the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven to others in parables that seeing they may see and not understand The Apostles and the Church derived from them were made acquainted wth the mysteries and secrets of Christian religion for their beleef and practise and the same Church clearly knows and understands them as the mysteries of her own profession and art wch she hath receivd and practisd from the beginning to this day But to others that be aliens and out of the Chuâ—ch it seems our Lord so orderd his speech that they should hear and yet not understand nor everfully perceiv his will till beleeving they were incorporated into his mysticall hody unto which alone all the mysteries of religion are delivered in perspicuity and clearnes This generall purpos and intention of penning the Gospell and other parts of the New Testament as short manuall notes for Christians within the Church or such as are to be congregated unto it from wch Churches hands they have both a larger explicit declaration of their faith and a full and ample practis thereof in her bosom must needs infer such an obscurity as shall obstruct all possibility out of the Church of God by this bare letter ever to arrive to a clear understanding of the waies of Christian Religion This is the first and great cause of that obscurity scripture carries with it unto such as come to seek their religion in a Book wch was never made to teach it nor written for such a propos The churches doctrin as it comes out of her lips that is the thing that converts nations and regenerats unto heavenly life and this written word is a good milk to nurs us up after we are regenerated wch made S. Peter to exhort Christians 1 Pet. as new born babes to desire that sincere milk of the word that they may grow by it 1. Pet. 2. But it is not the thing that givs us the first life Indeed the Scriptur does little or no good but as it is presented by the Church and received with her interpretation and practisd in her bosom wthout wch three things I wil be bold to say it is not the Word of God nor hath it any vertue at all The Ark of God so long as it was upheld by the Priests it comforted and sanctified them but touched or lookt into by others it destroyd them nor was it unto them an Ark of salvation but an offence and occasion of fall If we descend to particulars we shall espy reasons enough of obscurity such as will frustat all desire of any perspicuous discovery of faith to be made by any man wthout the churches help The very history doth afford disputs enough hardly to be answered by the learnedst of divines as they will easily grant that have examind them The Prophesies and mysteries of faith containd therein who is able to trace them And the morall or dogmaticall part tho it seem familiar yet hath it a profoundnesse beyond all human writting Indeed by this it is demonstrated to be the Word of God wch must needs be like himself unsearchable Out of the abundance ef the heart the mouth speaketh saith our Lord and where the heart is immense the word is also incomprehensible I doubt not but there be too many amongst our people in England who read the
may seem by human arguments yet must he himself as well as other Christians lay it aside if it be confronted by Catholik tradition the great and unresistable Rule of Christianity resign himself And it seems a principle of faith had delivered unto Christians this beleef that a soul once expiated goes to heaven Pope John tho he had reason to suspect so much so that he might hav abstained from propounding his thesis yet he did not propound it in councels where faith is determined but in Schools wher opinions are disputed and distinguisht from faith and upon that account was he justly to be excused Yet was that good Prelat so tender conscienced that he is said to have askt the world forgivenes at his death if they took any offence therat adding wthal that he did it only to give them occasion to search more narrowly whether the opinion were not consonant to tradition although it had not been yet heeded If then neither Pape nor councell can go contrary to the received waies of the Church in any thing how shall I be able to do it except I make shipwrack of my faith as S. Paul affirms Hymeneus to have don even by one fals opinion though otherwis a Christian 1 Tim. 1.19 For a lesser leak will drown a ship if it be not stopt or pumpt out so will any one errour in faith sink a self opiniating spirit For in the least we shall as truly resist God the first revealing verity as in the greatest and to gainsay him in any little thing who is equally infallible in all is no les than blasphemy and an insolence intolerable Sith it stands not wth his diety to be mistaken in the smallest matter or mislead his church therin LA. The church me thinks for the quiet and safty of a kingdom might well condescend to som opinions that be not so much materiall put case they were fals for in evills the les is to be chosen and that opinion cannot be so bad as the ruin of a whol Kingdom KN. The Church being a just depositary cannot teach otherways than she has receivd in any affair Besides Christ will hav his spous to be wthout spot or wrinkle or any such thing Eph. 5.27 and that opinion being against her tradition it cannot but make a wrinkle or spot or some such thing at least in her T is sacriledg wth us to rob or steal any thing out of a materiall temple what then would it be to purloin the Churches doctrin To rent her own seamles garment or make the least hole in it were an action unbeseeming the wisdom and modesty of the heavenly spous Shee will never do it nor no member of her body such as by Gods grace I am can do it without death and ruin to it self Try that will whosoever entertains but one particular misbeleef he shall soon find that being therby separated from the Catholik body he or his successours will soon attempt another and never lin till all be layd wast Besides the Church being but a depositaty or keeper of the doctrin committed to her charg hath not power over it to exhang distrain or make it away at her pleasur against the rules of honesty And if she should to content one sort of innovatours chang or relent in one thing others that would innovat in another may justly challeng the same favour and what should she then have had remaining to her self after so many innovations made by hereticks in so many ages I think very little or nothing at all by this time T is worth your consideration to ponder this For so you may perceiv both the integrity of this immaculat spous in conserving the doctrin wherwith she has been intrusted intire and wholly sincere and the madnes of all sectarys who would each in their wild fansys have the churches compliance wth them to her own ruin and being denied flew out into all exorbitances against her and forfeyted at once by their self opinions and obstinacy both the title of Catholik they had till then enjoyed and the security they had in the churches bosom This is a worthy and profitable speculation And therfor I shall indeavour to speak therof wth as much order method as can well be used in a matter of such disorder as the confused heap of heresys jumbled together may admit THe Churches doctrine is partly about the creation and Scriptures of the old Testament partly about our redemption and things peculiar to Christianity their persons or places precepts or counsells vices or vertues Sacraments and works either morall naturall or politicall in all wch severall hereticks have at times sought to bring in innovations wch had the church complied wthall she had had little or nothing left her by this time Nay she should have contradicted her self continually and said and denied the same things The extravagancys concerning the creation either opposed the autority of canonicall books or judgd amiss of the divine natur angels and souls the beginning of the world the condition of Adam and Eve our first parents Melchisedek and the like things wch wer antecedēt to our redēption Carpocrates and Cerdon in the time of pope Hygin rejected all the old Testament Ebion on the other side made the old Testamēt to be of equal autority wth the new and out of the new he cast forth al S Pauls Epistles as erroneous Cerdon and Marcion disallowed all the Gospells besides S. Luke Cerinthus all but S. Mathew the Alogians received all but S. Iohn Luther cast away S. Iames Epistle and the books of Maccabees tho he knew that not onely S. Austin but the whole councell of Carthage had received them as canonical Severus the Acts of the Apostles Apelles taught that the Prophets spake contradictories and lies Montanus that they understood not what they said though they are called seers for their understandig Isa 1. and are said to speak as inspired by the holy Ghost 2. Pet. 1. With which of these should the church comply and how The Gnosticks would have two Gods one from whence issue good things the other author of evill The Anthropomorphits in the time of pope Damasus would have God to be truly corporeall as man is The Armenians becaus God had said that Cain should not be slain by any man would needs have him a lier becaus Cain slew himselfe Sabellius in the time of pope Sixtus 2. would not admit any more then one person in God Arrius in pope Sylvesters time opposed the equality of the three divine persons The Alogians acknowledged not the Son of God to be the word The Ignoites maintained that Christ was ignorant of som things in particular of the day of judgment Macedonius in the time of pope Liberius made the Holy Ghost inferiour to the Father and Son not of the same essence wth them but a creatur Petrus Abaylardus said that the Holy Ghost was the soul of the world The Greeks that he proceeded not from the Father
observation wch I noted at times in my own privat reading never before taken notice of by any LA. So much the better for new things do excite attention VIC First you know that the Papish church sends forth her Priests and Religious to reduce nations from paganism and conveigh their faith up and down the World contrary to expres Scriptur Hast thou faith have it to thy self Rom. 14.21 II. Christ sayeth When thou dost fast anoint thy head wash thy face Math. 6.17 Papists never observe this nor do they think themselves bound in Lent ember other fasting days to put painting or black patches on otheir face to curl and powder their hayr anoint their head with jessamy butter spiknard other sweet ointments but the Gospell is neglected by them wthout any fear or conscience at all III. They hold that no body should forsake their religion directly contrary to Gods will The Spirit saith expresly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith 1. Tim. 4.1 God sayes some shal they say they shall not and by their good will they would let no body do it IV. They hold that the virgin Mary was taken up soul and body into heaven and would perswade us we shall be so too yet truth says that flesh and blood cannot in herit the Kingdom of heaven 1. Co. 15. V. They will tell you punctually on what day of the month Easter Christmas or any holiday happens Of such t is written Ye observ days and months and times and years I am afraid of you least I have bestowed labour in vain Gal. 4.10 VI. Such of them as be strong and healthy fast in Lent if any be sickly he eats flesh contrary to wt is writtē He that is weak let him eat herbs Ro. 14.2 VII T is written If thine enemy hunger feed him if he thirst give him drink Rom. 12.20 here the Papists commit two errours first they hold that a man may give both meat and drink to one that is hungry secondly they will do this not onely to their enemyes but neighbours and friends VIII They bring the Virgin Marys Pictur into the church wth a child in her arms tho they cannot but know that she stiles herself the handmayd of the Lord and t is written Cast out the Bondwoman her son Gal. 4.30 IX Papists will have the church forsooth to teach us our Religion and faith But it is written Wo unto him that saith unto the wood Awake and to the dumb stone Arise it shall teach Hab. 2.19 Is the church any thing but wood and stone T is flat idolatry thus to worship wood and stone and the works of mens hands Wo unto them for it X. They teach that righteousnes pleases God sin displeases wher as indeed they are both equally reprovable When the comforter is come he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousnes Io. 16.8 XI You know Madam we sit in our pews all service and Sermon time wthout uttering word nor can any discern our lips to stir all the while but the Papist women as soon as they enter their churches down they fal on their knees so long as they remain there patter forth prayers you may see hundreds of their lips moving together somtimes you may hear them cry Jesu Jesu I dare swear they speak in the church their religion teaches them to do it contrary to what is written It is a shame for women to speak in the church Cor. 14.34 XII They hold that both prodigality covetousnes in respect of our own goods fornicatiō leache ry in regard of our own bodys is unlawfull contrary to expres Scriptur Is it not lawful for me to do what I will wth mine own Mat. 20.15 XII They hold that they abstain from all kind of flesh in Lēt yet they eat fish c. not understāding the Scriptur Ther is one kind of flesh of men another of beasts another of fishes another of birds Co. 15.39 VIC XIII LA. Nay thirteenthly fourteenthly be words too long we have not time to proceed sweet mistres you hear I am cald VIC Many are called but few ar chosen saith the Scriptur Give me leav but to say over my nine and thirty articles LA. They will serv for good discours at table how come they to be so many VIC Articles against popery can never be more or les than nine and thirty K. James could have made his up to forty if he had pleasd but they must be no more than nine and thirty nor yet no les according as t is written Of the Iewes receivd I forty stripes save one 2. Cor. 11.24 LA. You are so witty VIC A parsons wise must needs be witty as t is written He that walks wth a wise man shall be wise Prov. 13.20 It should be she that walks but the Scriptur is compendious and somtimes leavs out a letter nay somtimes a whol syllable as in that saying God made man upright Eccl. 7.29 Ther man is set for woman for t is wel enough known that Adam had a stitch in his side and so went up and down stooping LA. Let us carry in your nine and thirty articles to the table VIC For S. Harry now and then to bite upon according as t is written man livs not by bread alone LA. Enough enough VIC So indeed it is written Luc. 22.38 Satis est It is enough FINIS
one day be destroyd The path of the just saith Solomon is as the shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day Prov. 4.18 LADY This is handsomly spoken Think seriously of this good S Harry and be as ready to suspect that for an errour wch lay hid longer as that wch was sooner discovered so shall all your popery melt away by degrees like icicls before the sun KN. I see and acknowledg that new reformations in Religion are daily made but whether to the edification or ruin thereof dos not yet so clearly appear A continuall taking away is an odd kind of mending nor do I know any thing in natur made better or greater therby save only a gap The pretended lights that have risen from time to time one after another I have hitherto taken to be meer unwholsom exhalations sulphureous meteors or som ignes fatui good for nothing but to lead men into lakes and ditches The daily rising of new opinions in Religion maks me rather suspect all than approv of any innovation becaus thes opinions ar all of them but new denialls of som part of the ancient Catholik-faith wch former reformers had not yet attained the confidence to reject so that it is stil but the same kind of audacity the very self same presâ—â—â—ption wth an additioÌ„ of som new degree of daring And ther was never any harlot that cast of all her cloths at once but according as she grew by degrees more shamless They that threw down the altar left a tabl standing in the Church and the first violatours of picturs did not break al the glass windows yet their succeslours hav finisht the work and the bare walls now standing ar dangerously threatnd In the same manner be articls of faith defaced and rased in the hearts and spirits of men by a graduall proceeding of infidelity and heresy still increasing in its growth of imodesty til of the whol fabrick of Christian religion ther be not left one ston upon another wch is the way not of composition but solution it dos not renew but impair I should look strangely upon that Phesition who will first make me beleeve I am sick when I do not find in my self that I ill any thing or complain at all and then taking upon him even against my will to reform me in my health purges me too again till I bee not able to stand on my legs drawing still from me till my body be quit consumed and never adding any positiv thing to sustain me Or if he should begin on the outsid and first tear of my cloths then my skin and so my flesh and bones still telling me it is for the renewing of my health and cheerfulnes I could not judg this other than outragious mockery and most cruell inhuman abuse Yet such and no other be all reformations in religion a continuall cancelling of doctrins formerly receivd and practised a daily taking away without addition of any thing and that in despight of the Church whos doctrine it is This is one reason I like not to hear of thes reformations much les to behold wth mine eyes the wofull ruins and disorders accompany them both in Church and state Another is I cannot see when there will be any end therof the successours still pretending the unlimited right of innovation the unlimited right of innovation left them as hereditary by their fathers wch right for aught I see all generations ar equally ambitious to put in practis so that nothing is stabl or secure nothing at all unchangeable nor can any one tell either what faith he livs in or in what he is to dy Indeed such men as would not be containd in their bounds by a profession of infallibillity wch they had in the Church how shall a profession of fallibility exhibited by heresy contain them a fallible liberty and a free fallibility can never lin rolling nor will they ever rest stated till they be faln into the gulf of atheism MIN. Do not mistake us Sr Harry we do not intend that variety of reformations should afford an argument against your stiff standing Popery in that way you take it But desire you onely to consider that inventions have been perfected by degrees all arts sciences customs garbs languages and wtever hath been at any time invented or used by man as you shall soon perceiv and grant if you would let your thoughts descend unto any one particular The art of making of watches how is it betterd wthin forty or fifty years and our English tongue purified Thus runing over the whol employments of mens hands and understandings you will acknowledg wth us that addition of new facultys in men of succeeding tims hath stil perfected the rude unpolisht works of forgoing ages In the same manner Religion afortim obscur and mixt wth several superstitions is by latter times illustrated and clensd LADY T is therfor no marvell that every ten or twenty years new waies ar invented by fresher wits to oppugn Popery KNIGT Madam thes severall new ways of heresy argue first that the ring-leaders and followers of the Lutheran faction the most dangerous epidemicall revolt I think hath ever happed since the Apostles days did not forsak the church for any reason they had so to do but first forsook the church and then sought out a reason to colour their revolt For had they had any one or many reasons for their division thes being once cleard and answered by the Catholick church so far that they could no longer insist upon their scattered principls they would hav returnd unanimously unto that body whence they and their for-fathers had impiously apostatisd and not have studied other shifts as vain as the former and perhaps more wicked too wherby to maintain themselvs and adherents in the wretched Schism whereunto they had formerly run purly indeed upon sensuall and carnall motivs whatsoever themselves pretend Secondly thes new ways and daily alterations of sectarys do sufficiently demonstrat that out of the Catholick church ther is not that unity consent and stablnes wch may mov a prudent man to beleev that either all those Sects together or any one of them ar that mysticall body of Christ that keeps an unity of spirit in the bond of peace Eph. 4.2 and wch is fitly joind and compact together v. 16. sith they neither agree together in the articles of their heleef nor yet in the motivs of their apostasy from that church that is and ever hath been so united and compacted in it self nor have in themselves any stability or consistency at all That is not grounded which never lins moving Again thes new ways of oppugning the church are not onely new declarations of former negativs maintaind by their for-fathers against the church but additions of new negativs and further apostasie wch infers as much division from their predecessors as they had from the first faith of the church and so they give me no
security at all of adhering unto any sith I may still in prudence doubt of any even the last separation whether that be the unspotted spous of Christ or a new purification yet to be expected And who can assure me that any such thing shall happen in my life time to be made use of by me or that I shall ever see that glorious church not having spot or wrinkl or any such thing holy and wthhout blemish Eph. 5.27 unto wch I may incorporat my self For the last separation still exclaimes against ' the former as they did against the mother church and that wch is to come will do the like against this Besides these several new ways if they be well examined appear so to dash one against another that altho all of them strike expressy at the mother church yet they wound her through one anothers sides and if any should beleev them he shall not possibly find any thing to adher unto unles he blindly close wth the first he meets and condemn all others wth the sam folly he made chois of this Our later Writers here in England L. Faukland Chillingworth and others driv if I mistake not against Religion in generall and strike as much at any or all as at the Catholick The Socinians they have sprung a mine under the church so deep and dangerous that it makes the very battlements of heaven to shake at least in the eyes of man openly and wthout dissimulation oppugning the very divinity of the Son of God crucifying not so much the lord of glory as the very lordship and glory of that lord finally calling many things in question wch former heretiks left untoucht And now one may meet here in every town villag wth som or other blaspheming openly against the whol Gospell of Christ such as hear them laughing at the conceit without any sens at all or zeal of Gods glory and their own finall hopes This is the fruit of thes new ways fresh wits and daily inventions wherby the utter desolation is day by day consummated Nemo repente fuit turpissimus no man on the sodain was ever made stark naught and be degrees doth every heresy how slight soever it be in the beginning sink it self insensibly into atheism containing most of Catholick faith in the first and imediat separation till by degrees it all expire This is the perfection Religion gets by the addition of new wits and the progres of innovation The knowledg and experience of these mischiefs makes the Catholik church wch is the wisest congregation hath ever been or possibly ever can bee upon earth to curb and stifl every wtsoever innovation as far as lies in her power at its first uprising how small soever it be knowing full well that from such a littl egg is by littl and littl formd a dangerous adder and this in time wingd into a flying serpent MINISTER Can you deny Sr that arts and sciences are all perfected by time so is Religion likwise KNIGT By your favour you ar much mistaken your self in your similitud or would at least beguil me If religion wer a human invention the consequence were good For all inventions of man issuing from an imperfect principl by the application of fresh hands and understandings superadded to the former as new degrees of perfection in the principle do receiv increas and the arts ar then com to the height when they have past through so many hands and heads as be able to imprint so much perfection as the subject or matter is capable to receiv So that all those heads and hands put together as well that perfected as that first invented the science do but make up one complet perfect principle of the art or invention resulting thence wch receives perfection proportionabl to the gradual acces of its original from whence it flows and still as natur and industry perfects that so does the art increase Thus much I can grant And if Religion were an human invention the very same affection would be found in it also T is here to be noted that we do not treat of Theology or scholasticall learning wch is a science superadded to the primary principles of Religion for this I shal grant to be humane as Physick or the civill law is if it be taken precisely according to its conclusions and inferences without respect had to the principles whence it flowes and it may alter in its manner and method as they do But I speak purely of those primary principles whereupon this Theology is founded for these only are faith and the unalterable doctrine of the Christian church This Religion and Faith deliverd unto us by God if the Gospell and Scripturs be true differs as to our present purpose in two points from all other humane sciences First that it issued at first from a principle absolutly complet secondly that ther is not upon earth any principl already existing or possible to exist that can join wth that principl to add to the perfection of the work God who reveald and taught this faith is an infinit intellect and an understanding infinitly actuated of such excessive perfection that it may easlier be admird and worshipt than exprest And therfor the faith that issued from him must have its whol perfection at the first impression and that infinit degrees more absolut than arts and sciences receive at the last that coms forth absolutly pure and perfect thes receiv their perfection such as it is in their progres The further Religion proceeds from its first institution or revelation the more t is sullied by the comerce of man whos practis by deviating from its dictats fouls it as it were by contagion of the vessell but if he shall once dare to enterpose the results of his own judgment wth those revealed articles to deny any or add to any mingling his own urin with that supernaturall current then does the water of life run troubled muddy and corrupted and ceases to be divine nor is ther any way to rectify it but by having recourse to its first pure sours and according to that samplar to clarify it again But human inventions arising at the first unpolisht and rough if their perfection be to be measurd are not called back to their first originall but examind rather by the nearnes to the last and final experiment This is the first difference as concerning our purpos in hand betwixt divine faith and human sciences Religion and arts gods worship and mans works The other is that ther is not upon earth any other principl which may add any thing to Religions perfection renew or alter it in any kind Arts sciences garbs languages and fashions of men thes do expect their perfection from mans industry whence they had their first being and humane industry and wit presumes rightfully to make severall additions alterations and changes in them according to the variety that is in mens fansies These alterations be either perfections or at least so esteemd
unto Baal that list I my people will follow the Lord as it is written in Scriptur For I will never beleev but this scriptur came from God and not from the Pope as you talk Sr Harry from heaven and not from Rome LA. By your favour sweet Mistres I have heard say that S. Marks Gospell was writ-ten in Rome first and originally in Latin I find also in my Bible that some of Pauls Epistls were written and dated from Rome as those he wrote to the Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians the second to Timothy that to Philemon and haply that to the Hebrews wch was dated from Italy And the Epistle which was written on purpose to the Romans was assuredly carried to Rome before it was brought hither and must come thence to us So that if they did come from heaven it seems Rome is either heaven it self or in the way twixt us and heaven for they were there first either brought thither or written there and thence cam over into England and other countries But to turn to you Sr. Harry me thinks you ar now too confident and seem to put on a refolution too much opposit to the hopes I have of you and consequently to the hopes you may hav of me for I cannot love an infidel as a friend much les as a husband VIC So indeed Madam it is written Be not unequally yoakt wth unbeleevers for we fellowship hath righteousnes wth unrighteous nes or wt communion hath light wth darknes KN. I begd the favour Madam to utter my mind freely and I think you granted it For t is wth an il affected mind as wth a diseased body neither can be made whol till they they hav purgd themselvs of their ill humours MIN. I am ready Sr to prove from point to point that al we hav in our reformation rejected is the pure inventions of men whereof the principal is that tyrant of Rome that Babylonian Antichrist the Pope VIC The whole Book of Revelations was made against that Beast Let me but read six or seaven Chapters and you will be affrighted I warrant you Now he rises out of the Sea then tumbles out o th clouds then ascends from the deep pit on a fiery red Hors or black hors wth seaven horns or ten horns accompanied wth armed locusts death and dragons KN. We will not descend unto particulars as yet Giv me leav now only to tell you in generall that those rejected parcells of our ancient Catholik faith cannot in any probability be thought human inventions For the Roman Catholik church whence all our religion issued doth own them indifferently wth the rest for integrall parts of the Christianity she at first deliverd And reformers never yet agreed together wt or how many of those parcells wer human and upon that account to be rejected And yet if they had had any certain knowledg either from God or man either by history or grounded reason they would not wth so much disagreement amongst one another hav by degrees cast off som one part some another of that religion they receivd at first altogether upon one the sam motiv of the Revealers infallibility This disagreement of reformers as it cannot but bring themselvs if they would but open their eyes into some suspitiō of uncertainty so to me unto whom uncertain grounds of faith are no grounds at all they ar a sufficient conviction of errour fraud Again these presented popish superstitions and human inventions rejected even by Protestancy were both very many and verry weighty at about the reall presence apostolicall traditions the papes supremacy merit of good works sacrifice of mass sacramentall absolution use of images invocation of Saints seaven sacraments vows shrines priesthood and the like even in a manner the whole body of practical religion Thes if they be additions of man must either be ignorantly taken up by the people or imposed upon them by their prelats As for the peopl if nothing at the beginning had ere been taught them but only to beleev in Christ it is not possible morally speaking that such things as thes should ever com into their heads but t is altogether and absolutly impossible that they should be taken up universally by all people of the earth together and that not by parcells as now they are cast away but the whol body of them together wth such unity and consent as hath been ever found in all Christian kingdoms of the world none of the peopl in any kingdom gain saying their fellows nor Prelats resisting If you say the Prelats imposed them This must be don either by violence or fraud either by strong hand or som insensibl introduction Such main weighty tangible points as thes wch were to be brought not onely into peopls heads but hands and daily and hourly to be practisd can never be thought by any sensibl man to have been insensibly introduced or insensibly receivd or insensibly liked of wth so much prejudice of carnall eas and sensuality I say wth so much prejudice of sensuality as fastings watchings almsdeeds justiciary satisfaction vows of poverty obedience and chastity pennances cloisturs and religious monasteries must needs bring upon the world For the same reason violence offred to the people whether at the same time or severall ages in such businesses of main importance of great weight and of much servitud could never pass so smoothly or be so tamly admitted by all Christian kingdoms wherof some be at deadly feud opposition and war with one another others of a natur more refractory and not so carfull to keep wt they have once receivd som sooner som later converted so that no nois should be made therof no cours taken to resist it no dislike of the doctrin no difformity of beleef He can never beleeve this who knowes either the nature of the world or the disposition of the Catholik Church The world is naturally tumultuous impatient of new yokes apt to insurrections slow to admit a restraint and no les prone to omit neglect and reject wt is servilely imposd upon them especially if it be don wthout just autority and contrary to peopls inclinations The Catholik Church on the other side he that knows her and hath beheld her proceedings from age to age may easily discern how ticklish and scrupulous she is how she startls at the very news of the least innovation or new fangldnes in any of her peopl wch if it do increas how small so ever the matter may be in it self the Catholik body rises up against it will not rest till by a councell it be condemnd This is the motiv of calling so many councells as have been since Christianity first began and of the severity ther used even in som things a man would hardly deem considerable It would even delight a man reading the history of the church in learned Baronius and others to see the Churches industry and watchfulnes on all occasions to prevent new fangldnes the labour
and diligence of her councells their faithfulnes study and exactnesse in examining discussing refuting upstart opinions their uprightnes and wisdom in defining confirming the ancient Catholik doctrin against all innovations according to that general oracle of all Synods Nihil innovandum veterum traditionibus standum and lastly the severe penaltys inflicted by the church upon the authours of innovation if they did not humbly recant their errour so that all things considered aright t is as impossible for human innovations to incorporate wth the body of anicent Catholik faith as for wood or stone to concorporate wth the flesh of an animal You would M◠Dr. save me the labour of perswading this truth any further if you would pleas to call to mind how severall Reformers have taunted at the scrupulosity of papists in this kind yea and inveighed too against their severity telling us that popish councels are so scrupulously severe that they question meddle wth and censur things that ar of little or no concernment at all in Religion and oftims pure Philosophy that they condemne good books written by their owne people and those men of sincerity and conscience one can hardly tell why or wherfore that they so enslave excellent wits that they cannot invent or utter any thing that may rellish never so little of novelty that they judg the faithfull and cast them out of the church even for small supposed deviations that they set up inquisitions to prevent and suppresse liberty of conscience even wth un-Christian cruelty And they tell us severall storys of the Catholik churches scrupulosity in this kind of Heliodor put out of his byshoprick for writing his fained Romance of Virgilius displaced in like sort for teaching that ther were Antipodes an opinion in those daies new and unheard of of a Printer that together wth the losse of his place sufferd a heavy mulct for altering one letter wch had been falsly transcribed in that parable of the woman that lost a drachme and swept her house evertit domum the Printer for evertit made it everrit as it ought to be and forfeited say they his office for his pains It is possible that so much curiosity so much scrupulosity and tendernes should so tamely admit of an insupportable weight of popery wthout any disturbance at all nay wth the liking and universall consent of all men God Catholikes are as tender of their faith as of the apple of their eye so that if a friend or kinsman should once take up any noveltys therin we are scandalised at it rise up against him cannot but show our aversion and dislike even wher natur and custom had united us Nor can any one of our country-men broch an heresy but all sound Catholiks will hate him for it and rise up against him forreiners if it ever com to their ears will detest him much more how ever he may draw some disciples after him such light capritious people as will be led away wth every wind of doctrin and som such there have ever been who forgetfull of God and their own safty will leav the rock of the church wherupon they are built to follow the new fangldnes of a proud instable mind the whole Catholik body still resisting and condemning the insolence This is a quality as evident in good catholiks as that a man hath a nose in his face nor needs it proof How then can it be thought that whol Kingdoms and severall nations should submit to the judgment of one proud deviatour be he never so witty ov eloquent as for example all the Prelats of Spain Italy Germany France East and West-Judys Asia in a word all over the world to one haughty self conceited English Priest deviating from the ancient received faith of his ances tours wthout any resistance dislike or noise It is not a thing by a reasonable man so much as to be imagind Nor hath a prelate in one countrey any more power over the prelates of another than wit and eloquence can afford him wch reason and experience showes can never suffice for the bringing of all mankind into captivity to it self wthout resistance and clamour The chief Priest is the fittest to offer this kind of violence and yet how little he is able to prevail in an opinion contrary to the Churches universall tradition appears sufficiently in the fact of pope Iohn the twenty second who propounding to the consideration of some Christian universities the negativ of the soules fineal beatitud till the generall judgment effected no more but a commotion of the Christian world against himself And the thing is remembred and spoke of to this day Wherfor neither covin nor violence can be of any avail to the introducing of innovations by any person wtsoever contrary to the churches custon and tradition Deal sincerly wth me and take any one point of those many wch English Catheliks hold at this day masse pilgrimages vowes pennance absolution reall presence or wt you will and tell me in wch of the Kings dayes between William the conquerour and Harry the eight it was first taken up here or brought into the land look still further and see your self if the same was not beleevd and practisd by the Saxons even from their first conversion untill K. William the conquerours daies go forward and you shall find that the religion the Saxons receivd from Pope Gregory did both in that point and all others agree wth wt the Brittons had receivd two or three hundred years before This I am sure you shal find if you be not wāting to your self How then can you ever hope to perswade me that all or any of these be innovations wherof you can tell me neither the motiv nor the occasion nor the time they were introduced nor the person by whom nor any event that followed theron T is an argument of desperat wretchednes to cast away all practicall religion upon no other account than the bare affirmation that t is popish superstition and popish inventions No Sr the inventions of men in matters of religion cannot be so universall in men and Kingdoms of differing humours and at enmity oftimes wth one another they cannot be so imutable in so many alterations of states and governments as are and have been in the world they cannot be so permanent being both human and unlawfull for as divinity and essentiall truth are therfor eternall and unchangable becaus such so humanity and falshood must needs decay and moulder away contrariorum contraria est ratio It was a golden observation that of Gamaliel a great doctour of law among the Iewes If this counsell be of men it will come to naught if of God ye cannot frustrat it Act. 5. You see by the alterations that happen in human inventions that t is much for mens conceits or fansies to stand unch angd for one age or two all Reformations are by their continuall vicissitudes convinced to be human counsells and works of men
they do at least and if they chance for formalitys sake to fall upon any practicall point to speak therof wth no purpos hope or intention of their practise For t is agreed on both sides both preacher people that such practis is popery and nothing requisit to salvation but onely to beleeve Hear a parable Two artificers had each of them an apprentis The first having delivered to his servant exactly all the rules of his art put him presently to work and practis by them assuring him that practis will better his knowledg wch the servant in all singlnesse of heart applying himself to labour according to the dictats of his rule advanced accordingly and so became eminent in the eyes of men and excceedingly beneficiall to the common wealth The other tradesman wth drew from the sight of his prentise all the particular rules and whole method of his art onely deliverd unto him in grosse som experiments and feats thereof by wch notwthstanding he could not perceiv at all either where to begin or how to go on nay he gave his servant one generall caution not to put his hands to any thing his duty being onely once a week to com and sit down before him and hear him discours of the usefulnes and benefit of his trade Onely beleeving in him his work is ended The prentise under such a teacher grew to be a great proficient in works and sentences but never put his hand to any thing either for his own credit or the benefit and service of mankind Nay he mockt at the other apprentis and cald him simple drudg The first of these artificers is the Catholik church the other is the Reformation Do you apply the rest The Catholik Religion is a noble a rational religion well beseeming a complete man to profess well beseeming the Son of God to plant The reformation a vain empty businesse befitting none to receive it but a company of cripples that have neither hands nor feet to use nor none to invent it but dawes and magpies It begins in teaching and ends in preaching Wo to you Pharisees saith our Lord for ye tith mint and rue and all manner of herbs and passe over judgment and justice and the love of God those ye ought to have done and not leave the other undone Luc. 11. Preaching if it be right and pious may be used nay when instructions advise and comfort is necessarily to be applied it ought to be done but the practise wherunton it tends this is not to be left undon The tithing of mint rue and cumin does but figur out under a tipe a consecrating unto God part of the good things we do enjoy from him by fasting almsdeeds and prayer that is to be done these not to be left undone Preaching puts in mind of the works of faith hope and charity that wher is need is to bee used these not to be neglected At one and the same time to preach good things in the pulpet and to cry down the same things by the rules of Reformation is to open a mans mouth and stop his wind pipe All your people go to your Churches wth such a prejudice against the customs of Catholik Church whence they are cut off by the reformation that altho the minister should chance wth singular zeal and eloquence to declaim against sin and cry up the exercises of Christianity yet the auditory is promoted nothing at all therby being aforehand prejudiced by the rules of reformation incorporated and naturalised in their spirit For who can take such words to heart or ever heed them effectually that shall firmly beleev that all we do or can do is sin and wt sin soever we commit we shall sure enough be saved if we do but beleev in Christ. People imbued wth these principles shall never by any Rhetorick either of man or angel be either affrighted from evill wordly pleasures and sin or perswaded to the laborious works of mortification and pennance The sowr grapes of Reformation have so set peoples teeth on edg that they cannot chew good mear T is in vain t is utterly in vain to bid dead men walk or exhort those to the works of life who by the poyson of reformation are made dead and sensles Preaching is to Catholiks a profitable and religious exercise to hereticks if it be orthodox t is a vain work if pseudodox t is a wicked work but to no people nor in no kind is it or can it be the onely work or sole Christian duty LA. Wt be those works Sr Harry you require over and above preaching KN. Even such as the Word of God it self requires The works of faith hope and charity and use of Sacraments prescribed in Gospell a serious and effectuall indeavour against sin according as sacred scriptur prescribes whose precepts must be heeded as obligatory and counsells respected as meritorious offerings We must both beleev in Christ as mediatour and beleev him too as our legislatour Both love him and observ his will and when we do fail reconcile our selves unto him by the means-himself hath ordayned captivating both our will and understanding to his pleasure who is our redeemer and maister and omnipotent Lord. To speak more particularly the works wch Catholiks by their faith are directed and exhorted unto be of two sorts personall and conventuall The personal works be first a constant obedience to the Church in all her dictamens of faith upon this great hinge hangs indeed all true and solid Christianity then an effectuall exercise of homage and piety to God of justice and charity towards our neighbour of sobriety and continence in our selves These things must be done he that does them best shall fare best for it The conventuall a reverent use of Sacraments and a presence at divine psalmody and Sermons according to our occasion and need But the great capitall conventuall work and worship is the venerable and blessed Sacrifice of the Altar every holiday solemnly exhibited every Christian stands obliged to be then present at it tho his devotion may find it each day of the week in our Catholik churches and many thousands of good people serv God every day in this holy rite But this is a free offering of their own not wthout great benefit and comfort to themselvs unto wch Holy church will not oblige This is that great work wch constitutes and essentiates Christian Religion By this it was perfected in its fundamentall worship and duty towards God long before our people had any Scripturs to read and by wch especially seconded wth its other Catholik appurtenancies it would still remain intire altho there were no Scriptures at all either to read or hear For Scriptur as it is expounded by Holy church or rather the traditional doctrin of the church whereof Scripture is a short and compendious coppy is to us Christians a light not to sit idle by but to work by This is the work wch the Disciples and
places are found ther is either an entire Altar stone or some remnants or signes of it This sacred Synaxy was the only thing that brought Christians together in times of hottest persecution at wch most of our Christian Martirs were taken And yet notwthstanding others could not forbear for that they could not have that comfort any other way nor yet were they able to live wthout it As appears in the Acts and processe of our ancient Martirs particularly the proconsulary Acts of S. Saturnin Wher we read that when the pagan emperours had given a comand that no Christian should dare to be present any more at their Mass wch the Christians at that time called their Dominicum the martirs replied sine Dominico esse non possumus we cannot live wthout Mass And therfore S. Saturnin being askt by Analin the proconsul whether he had been at Mass he answered Christianus sum as if he had said being as I am a Christian I cannot do otherwise t is Christianity t is my very life and being If all the Religion of those ancient Christians had been onely a little bearing or reading and their onely work to beleev in Christ they had never needed to expose their lives for that for Reformers do not think themselvs bound under sin to hear any body sith they beleev already wch is all that is necessary to salvation We cannot live wthout absolution and Mass they may live wthout a pratling preacher wch most of them do but censur and none of them be advanced by him either in their faith or good works onely their ear is somtime tickled a little wth a witty actour in the pulpet as there be indeed som of them so ingenious that t is as much pleasur to hear them speak as Ben. Iohnsons Catilin or Sejanus By all this discours I would infer that hearing or preaching the word is not the sole act of Christian Religion nor yet the main and principal act therof sith of its own natur it is but a preparativ and disposition to some further work and the disposition is ever les noble than the form it disposes unto And if it dispos unto no other thing as Reformers preaching does not then is in no Religion at all but a meer mockery This was my first thesis My other was that a man may all his life time either read or hear the word and yet at length be undon both for his sin and infidelity if in any one thing he misbeleev or fail LA. If we let you alone Sr Harry you wil not com to a period wthin your time the glas is run KN. I will dispatch in a word VIC Do so Sr Harry for it is written In a multitud of Words ther wants not sin but be that refrains his lips is wise Prov. IC KN. That any one errour in faith suffices for destruction altho a man otherwise beleev the story of Gospel is apparent in reason For all the Articles of faith being received upon one and the same motiv wch is the verity of the revealer the formal deniall of any one must needs be a vertuall deniall of all and consequently the destruction of faith wthout wch no man can be saved Wherfor S. Paul is bold to condemn Hymeneus Philetus known Christians for one onely errour Shun saith he prophane and vain bablings for they wil increas unto more ungodlines And their word wil eat as doth a canker of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus who have erred from the truth saying that the resurrection is past already overthrow the faith of some 2. Tim. 2.16 By this example we see that one errour overthrowes faith And yet t is worth noting too that the errour those two are condemned for is not any thing formally opposit to Scriptur for Christ told his disciples of a resurrection to come but did not say that in Hymeneus his time it was not past but their mistake and misdemeanour was merely against the judgment of the church whose Priests expounding Scriptur told them that the resurrection was not then past and yet they would not be quiet notwthstanding nor resign their judgment Another like president we have in his other Epistle wher he saith The younger widdows refuse for when they begin to wax wanton against Christ they will marry having damnation becaus they have cast of their first faith 1. Tim. 5.11 Tho marriage be in it self lawfull yet undertaken against the churches autority as it is it self a mortal sin so is it a casting off and a destruction of all faith And yet those widdows were beleevers and fil devotes too such as lookt to the dressing of their churches and Altars washing of their sacred vestments arâ—â— other works of charity As for mortall sin that any one will ruin the soul even of a beleever appears by the tenour of the whole new Testament especially of S. Pauls Epistles wherin he dehorts the Christians in Rome Corinth Ephesus and others from sin in generall each mortall sin in particular because the wager of sin is death neither adulterers theeues or murderers shall ever enter into the Kingdom of God of Christ Wch exhortatioÌ„ had been of no valiew and nothing to the purpose if sin had been nothing prejudiciall to one that beleeveth By this account a man may both hear read Scriptur all his life time and yet be condemnd at length both for sin and infidelity if he do not adhere closely to all truths revealed by the church and use all Sacraments and helps of salvation she propounds LA. This point requires further discussion than we have now time for And my servant hath put me in mind that dinner is brought up Wherfor break of and le ts go in MIN. Let 's in le ts in to the great work where we shall meet wth an abstract of Metaphysiks In vino veritas in pane unitas in carne bonitas Nay ther 's divinity Sacraments too Le ts in good Sr Harry on my conscience I have such a gaping appetite I could swallow a camell KN. Me thinks Dr we ar at a good feast already according to those sacred words My meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work Ioh. 4. MIN. After two or three cups of wine Sr Harry I le repeat over all this discours of yours and refute it to the full Foecundi calices It was the first best miracle Christ ever did to turn water into wine I would he had turnd a little more of it VIC O Husband sweet wine and fair women are seldom found in the same countrey Content your self you had better have me wth a pot of your ale than a french face wth a whole Butt of claret Go to now MIN. That 's right too But did you never hear wt the Scotch-man said to King James when he askt him wch Byshoprick he would have Bath or Wells Marry beath beath quoth the Scotch-man The King for the conceit
pleasur by wth drawing tithes or tribut or otherwayes sess 8. against his 27. art Indeed the opinion is a way to all rebellion and disorder in church and state XVI Finally that no degree may scape the Waldenses and Luther inveighed bitterly against religious orders as the invention of the devill affirming that the founders of them were damnd for it if they repented not and that none could be saved in them wch desperate madness was censurd also in the said councell of Constance Sess 8. And strongly confuted by Chlitoveus Roffensis Albertus Thomas Waldensis a Carmelit and before them by S. Thomas and S. Chrysostome XVII To prevent all danger on any hand for any heresy or disorder the Waldenses spread abroad that no judg can condemn any man to punishment But they either forgat or simple souls never knew that S. Paul saith if ye do evill fear for the magistrat bears not the Sword in vain XVIII There were others who taught that no hereticks were to be punisht but left to Gods judgment 19. The Rhetorii saies Philaster affirmed that al hereticks thought aright XX. Nicolaus Eimericus reports of others in the time of Pape Gregory the eleaventh who affirmed that any one that commits a mortall sin is an heretick XXI S. Austin testifies of the hereticks called Ophitae that they worshipt the Serpent that beguiled Eve and the Caiani respected Judas for a Saint for that he was cause of our redemption These be some extravagant opinions of sectarys concerning severall persons in the church kings and subjects religious men clargy men priests students byshops the Senate of prelates popes Saints Christ and what not so sensles so wild so inconsistent so contradictory that the wisedom and integrity of the Church of God were not able to suffer much lesse approve them being contrary many of them to common honesty others to right reason all of them to Christian faith How shall the immaculate spous comply heaven and hell may sooner come together I think VIC T is a marvellous thing Sr Harry you can have all thes opinions in your head and hold none of them What difference is ther betwixt having and holding If I should ever think of them they would mingle wth my creed I can beleev any thing if it be not popery and take all that coms as I did my Husband to have and to hold for better and for wors as it is written MIN. Com you speak like one of the foolish women VIC How did you speak when you took me wth the very same words and said wth a blith and bucksom countenance I Iohn You have been a year or two at a pagan university where you learnt to worship Judas for a Saint you are so proud upon it deny if you dare that I understand the bible wch is the highest book in the world wherin then can you exceed mee T is true you are a parson but is it not written I have more understanding than my teachers Psa 119.99 You would fain com in wth your few texts against Sr Harry that you have been scribling out of a concordance being out of all patience that his Discours keeps you back Pray be content t is as pleasing to me to hear talk of these men as of my owne father and mother that begat mee expect your kue good sweet Husband Your hour is not yet come as t is written LA. T is agreed upon Sr Harry that you proceed in your discours Mr Doctour in the end will I beleev make use of it all to his owne advantage KN. I have declared som severall odd conceptions of men concerning sundry persons in the church Others there be concerning places as the temple or place of worship purgatory after life hell and heaven wch opinions maintained wth pertinacy caused the authours thereof to be cast out of the Catholik body of Gods church wherin they had been members I. Eustachius derided all Saints temples The Waldenses afterward would have all churches taken away as too much straitning the majesty of God whose temple is the wide world The Pseudapostoli added that a consecrated church is no more worth than a swine sty as also Zisca the German who wth his companions whom he called Taborites from mount Tabor where Christ was transfigured spoild and defaced all holy places they came neare The councell of Gangres defined against this madnesse c. 5. decret II. The same Waldenses would not endure that time should be spent in saying the canonicall hours in the church and their ape Wicleph gave his reasō for it becaus forsooth it is not fit that Christians should be tied to prayer at any time This reason if it wer worth any thing would destroy the Sabboth But all singing in the church they scofft at as nois made to Baal The Arrians before them disprooud singing in Catholik churches but their reason was becaus of so many Hymns and anthems made in the honour of Christ against their impious opinion Against al thes is the councel of Gangres c. 30. decret III. That all images are to be taken out of churches was stifly maintained both by the said Waldenses and their squire Wicleph For wch heresy long before their time Leo the third emperour in Constantinople was excomunicated by Pape Gregory the third yet notwthstanding the emperour Constantin the fift and emperour Leo the fourth his son adhered still to it but after his death Irene his wife ruling the empire in the name of the Infant Constantin the sixt obtained the second Nicen counsell to be called where by three hundred and fifty Byshops the heresy was condemnd though Constantin the sixt being of age would not submit to the councell wch was one of the mainest causes of the dislike and grudg between the Latin Greek emperours The errour was afterward condemnd in the councell of Frankford under pape Adrian the first IV. The adoration given in Catholik temples unto the cross and crucifix the above named Iohn Wicleph an english Priest who lived about the yeare 1380. would by all means have taken away But Thomas Waldensis his country man almost contemporary still confuted him and his blind Lugdunian guides who were also judgd condemnd by all the Prelats in Constance V. There also was censurd another errour of theirs that preaching in temples should be lawfull for any although prohibited by superiours VI. The said Wicleph denied tiths to be due to Priests serving at the Altar preaching and praysing God wch errour was also condemnd in the 18 place at Constance But this opinion he had from the Pseudapostoli whose ringleader was Gerardus Sagarellus of Parma who was burnt in the yeare 1260. VII Both the Waldenses and Wiclevits blasphemd all benedictions of water candls palms altars challices churches forgetting or not beleeving that every creature is sanctified by the Word of God and Prayer 1. Tim. 4. VIII No less peremptory was Wicleph Huss and Luther against excomunications from church and altar inflicted on
cross imprinted on the forehead to be inefficacious Indeed the church uses both the sign of the cross and crism wch the ancient Christians would by no meanes have omitted and the minister of the Sacraments should sin in omitting those or other rites of the church yet if in case baptisme should be administred in the right matter and form wthout these it would have its valiew so the same church ever beleeved And the Eucharist though haply it might be given to som wth baptism yet not of necessity sith baptism was instituted long before it VIII The Waldenses on the other side affirmed that baptism by all means ought to be received wthout mixtur of holy oyle The leader of these so often named Waldenses was one Waldo of Lions in France and therfore they were sometime called Waldenses sometime Pauperes Lugdunenses the sect began about the yeare 1570. condemnd at Rome in a generall councell IX That infants are not to be baptised was the assertion first of Pelagius because he thought they had not originall sinne and then of Wicleph because he thought that the faith and prayers of their parents sufficed them But the Milevitan councell defined that baptism was absolutly necessary to infants salvation as also the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth the councell of Trent Sess 6. c. 4. X. Others ther were on the other side who held that a man in age and of mature judgment could no wayes possibly be saved wthout baptism how much soever he might be contrite in heart But the sayd Tridentin councell under Paule the third silences thes also Sess 6. c. 4. XI Luther Melanchthon and Bucer taught that baptism takes not away all sin becaus concupiscence remains But then baptism should not be a laver of renovation Tit. 3. Nor should we by baptisme be buried wth Christ unto death Rom. 6 Radical or habitual concupiscence is no sin at al except it be actuated by the consent of reason XII The Flagellantes maintained that in their time baptism of water had ceased and baptism of blood succeeded wch thing say they was signified in Cana of Galile when at the end of the feast water was turnd into wine And so they went up and down France whipping themselves till the blood came when they were told by their Catholik Prelats that castigation of body was good and allowable and practised even by the best Christians but it ought not be don wth the prejudice of other parcells of faith reveald in Gospell they replied that the whole Gospell at their coming had ceased These be the principall mistakes I have taken notice of concerning baptism As for Confirmation wch ancient Christians called Consignation from the fact of the Byshop signing the forhead wth crism the Waldenses denied it to be a Sacrament Wicleph their squire did not com home wth them in this point for he acknowledgd it a Sacrament but taught it might be conserd by any Priest Against both these is the Ispalen councell c. 7. dec the Tridentin under Paule the third Sess 7. can 1. as also the Florentin Toletan third and fourth councell of Carthage As for Pennance Luther bables odly about sacerdotall absolution affirming that it is not in it self necessary at all and that t is efficacious not because t is given but beleeved to be given whether it be indeed given or no and that a man beleeving himself to be absolued is absolued whether he be so or no although he have not so much as contrition The Tridentin counsell under pope Julius the third blasted this errour Sess 4. can 9. II. The same Luther added that a woman or child gave as good absolution as the Pape III. Again he denied ther were three parts of Pennance contrition confession and satisfaction as the church had taught But the councell of Florence under Eugenius in their definition of faith about the Sacraments given to the Armenians defined the three parts according to Catholik faith as likewise the councell of Trent in the sixt session c. 14. and againe in its fourth session under Julius c. 4. IV. Novatus a priest in Rome was peremptory that no pennance wtsoever should ever procure remission to one that had fallen and finned mortally The Roman councell under pape Cornelius of fifty Byshops and as many priests disabled this pernicious errour as also the councell of Trent under Paul the third the sixt session in their doctrine of Justification c. 4. V. Luther affirmed that contrition or sorrow for sins arising from the fear of hell was unprofitable nay a mortall sin Against this also is the councell of Trent under pope Paul Sess 6. can 8. and again under Julius Sess 3. c. 4. VI. That confession to a priest was instituted by man and not by God was taught by Petrus Osmensis reader of divinity in Spain but he was condemnd by Alphonsus Carillo Archbyshop of Toledo and Primat of Spaine by the autority of pape Sixtus the fourth Luther after him taught the same Some orientall Hereticks called Iacobits said it was not necessary to confess to a priest but to God onely Wicleph thought it superfluous because of contrition Waldenses also tooke away all confession But yet that this Catholik confession notwthstanding was instituted by Christ himselfe S. Leo S. Austin S. Ambrose S. Cyprian S. Cyrill and all doctours agree and that it was practisd in the primitiv times is evident enough in the Acts of the Apostles where t is said that the new converts or beleevers came confessing and declaring their deeds Act. 19. And that t is necessary even wth contrition is witnessed by the councell of Constance Sess 8. and by the councell of Trent under Julius the third Sess 4. can 3.6 VII Some Greeks also denied restitution to be necessary But against the very law of natur wch bids to do as we would be done by that famous aphorisme of S. Austin Non dimittitur peccatum nisi restituatur ablatum Against the truth of the holy Eucharist ther have risen many fals judgments I. The Manichees made not their Eucharist of bare bread wch they judged unclean but mingld human seed wth it for wch purification they were called Catharists II. The Greeks made their Eucharist in leavend bread thinking our blessed Saviour had consecrated in leaven And a very great dispute rose about it three Gospells saying expresly that our Lord eat his last supper in the first day of azyms or unleaved bread S. Iohn the day before the Pasch wch the Latins interpreted to be the evening or beginning of the azyms the Greeks the day before it when leaven was eaten He that thorougly ponders the Gospell may see the Greeks were deceived And though the church in her councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth for the Union of the Greeks acknowledged that a consecration in fermented bread was valid yet she binds all her priests to consecrat stil in azym III. The Waldenses in their Eucharist are said
a Priest of the most high God unless it were brought forth to exercise his priesthood on and if that were not an exercise of his function according to what rite or order must his priesthood be for we never read one word or any mention at all of him but onely there Besides the kings for whom Abram fought wherof one went forth to meet him at his return had made provision enough for Abram so that he needed not a poor priests bread especially returning back laden wth the spoils of the camp of four kings XVII That mass onely availed the priest that offerd it and not others for whom it is offered was another assertion of Luthers Against wch is Concilium Cabilonense put into the volume of the Decretes As for ordination Luther denied it to be a Sacrament Yet Scriptur sufficiently expresses both the sign and thing signified imposition of hands and grace accrueing by it 1 Tim. 4.14 As for matrimony I. The Armenians denied it to be a Sacrament so did Luther after them Yet t is expresly so named in the Scriptur Eph. 5.32 II. Tatianus Marcion the Aerians and Priscillanists held marriage unlawfull This opinion S. Paul seems to have forseen and censurd it In the last times saith he some will depart from faith forbidding to marry 1 Tim. 4. And it was afterward condemnd in the councell of Gangres c. 10. decret III. The Cataphrygians whose leader was Montanus as also Novatus a Roman priest in the time of Pape Cornelius condemnd all second marriages But S. Paul does not so A woman if her husband be dead is not adulteres if she be wth another man Rom. 7. IV. The Anabaptists taught that one man may have two wives But our Lord not onely said that the first wife remaining a man cannot marry a second but proved it also by those words in Genesis Erunt duo in carne una Mat. 19. V. Montanus held that the bond of wedlock may be dissolved at the pleasur of the married couple But the church teaches further that nothing no not adultery it self dissolves it quoad vinculum though quoad torum it may as appears in the Milevitan councell c. 7. decret and the generall councell of Florence in the definition of faith given to the Armenians Extreme-unction is rejected from the Sacraments by Luther and his adherents But the councell of Florence under Eugenius 4. and Trent under Iulius the third in the fourth session defined in a Sacrament And t is plain enough it came from Christ himself for when our Lord sent out his Apostles two by two in the execution of that comand they preacht and dispossest people and whome they found sick they anointed them wthoyle that they were healed Mar. 6.12 This they could not do of their own autority nor did our saviour make surgeons of them but spirituall phesitians and dispensers of his word Sacraments LA. You have don well for one day Sr Harry our hour is spent and by reason of this continued narration Mr Doctour has had no occasion to dispute VIC O good Madam let him make an end that he be not like the foolish builder My Husband may talk all dinner time according as it is written Open thy mouth wide and I will fill it KN. Madam that I may be yet more brief the other extravagant opinions that remain concerning actions morall naturall and politicall I will but meerly mention wthout adding text of Scriptur or councell against them As for Christian morality I. Luther and Melanchthon taught that the Evangelicall rule wherby our actions are guided is no law at al that there is not so much as one precept in the whole Gospell II. Calvin that there is no difference at all betwixt a precept a counsell III. Spangeberg a Lutheran that nothing is pleasing to God except it be comanded IV. Luther that all Gods precepts are impossible to be kept V. Ebion and Cerinthus that the old Law is universally to be observed wth the new VI. Marcion the Manichees that the old Law is wholly evill VII Others that every man may be saved in his owne Law religion VIII Luther that al works of mā howsoever comanded by God are sins IX Bugaurius de Monte Falcone that any work don in hope of eternall reward is evill X. The Bogards and Beguines that a perfect man ought not to exercise good works XI Luther that no work is of valiew unto life eternall nor no hope in merits that a man may be certain of his salvation wthout them that servile fear is damnable XII Pelagius that life eternall may be obtained by our own working wthout the assistāce of grace XIII Iovinian that a just man can never sin whatsoever he does kill ly sweare steal XIV That all Prayer is unprofitable was taught by Pelagius because he thought our nativ liberty sufficient for all by Wicleph Huss becaus they thought that all things happen by absolute necessity XV. Wicleph that prayers applied to one do him no more good than al others XVI The Messalians that onely prayer wthout other good works is sufficient to life eternall and that in no instant of time we are to cease from prayer XVII Iovinian that fasting is of no moment XVIII Aerius that we are not to be bound to any certain abstinencys XIX The Bogards that a man come to perfection is not bound to any austeritys XX. Eunomius that faith saves wthout any good works at all XXI Luther that faith is lost by a mortall sin XXII Abailardus that nothing is to be beleeved but what we understand XXIII Bardesanes a Syrian and Priscillianus that all mens actions are to be imputed to fate and not their owne free will XXIV The Lamperians Pseudapostles and Luther that all vowes made to God are impious paganish judaicall diabolicall XXV The Wittenburgians later Lutherans that nothing can be vowed but what is comanded XXVI Wicleph that it is not law full for Christians to give almes to the poor and that all mendicity and poverty is unlawfull and Desiderius a Longobard that it is not lawfull to leave our possessions for Christ XXVII Guilielmus of Anwerp that by poverty all sins are blotted out and that a poor whore is better than a rich matron XXVIII Wicleph that every sin is venial to the elect Calvin that there is no difference at all betwixt mortall sin venial Jovinian that all sins are equall Aetius that no sin is imputed to a beleever Valentinus that every sin is from the devill and not from our free will Pelagius that there is no such thing as original sin Some Greeks that single fornication is no sin at all XXIX The Armenians that all were damned for their sin before Christs passion As for things actions naturall I. Abailardus held that nothing in affaires is contingent but all things of necessity Wicleph that God himselfe cannot do things otherwise than they are done II. The Turrelupini that we should be ashamed