places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
they ended not their life in sinne because that praying is according to Gods will For it foloweth there immediatly Who so knoweth his brother to sinne he vseth the present tense and not the preterfect tense to haue sinned because his intent is to exhort also the sinner to leaue by time a sinne not to death as one that liued in Schisme but yet was reconciled before he dyed let him after his death request of Christ and life shall be giuen vnto him to one I say sinning not vnto death Sinne there is vnto death I say not that any pray for that because it is not according to Christes will to pray for them that be in hell All iniquitie is sinne and therefore to be diligently auoyded and not so much as one moment to be incurred And there is sinne vnto death As if he would say if you auoyde not that no hope after your death your brethren can not helpe you by praying for you This is the playne and smooth sense of that whole place and so must néedes be because there is no man nor no sinne in this life but we may pray for him and it as neither the Nouatians as bad as they were did denie Onely the Protestantes denie it because they haue no other shift to auoyde this place And therby let any indifferent any Christian man iudge whether this be not a playne place for praying for the dead Fulkes wordes of sinnes in this life and men in this life not to be prayed for and that to be this sinne and sinner vnto death I shall recite in the twelfth Chapter amongst his grossest errors and absurdities Thus I haue answered thanks be to God al his Scriptures against Purgatory and all his arguments made out of the Authoritie thereof both negatiuely and affirmatiuely Cap. 7. part 4. Wherby appeareth to the full the vanitie of his bragges in the last Chapter against the church of God that he could would produce against the doctrine thereof such plaine testimonies of Scripture such Scripture also for the meaning of ech place as by no meanes might be auoyded Whereas amongst all his testimonies you sée there is not one but it hath bene cléerely answered As now in this fourth last part shall be answered likewise with the like helpe of god all other Scriptures that in these two most insolent Libelles in any place vp and downe he alleageth against any other point of the Churches doctrine The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth And first to put all the same in some order for the more vtilitie of the Reader I conceaue all the differences that are betwéene vs and the Protestants in this diuision Some are about the witnesses of Gods word the principles of Diuinitie or groundes of all truth which by them is onely Scripture by vs not onely Scripture but also the Church and certain others whervpon we frame our Motiues to all men to beléeue vs not the Heretikes shewing them that such and such are the principles which they must beléeue and withall that the said principles euery one of them stand for vs and not for the Protestantes Some are about other particular or priuate controuersies Which may be reduced vnto these two heades Good-workes and the Sacramentes the doctrine of which both they corrupt with their new inueÌ„tion of Onely faith Only Scripture and Only Faith as they do the foresaid with their toye of Onely Scripture What Scripture he alleageth about the first sort I haue in the two first partes of this chapter reported them al answered theÌ„ sauing a very few which I reserue to the tenth chapter which shall be of euery Motiue or Demaund apart by it selfe There in these fiue Motiues of Churches Seruice Priesthood with Sacrifice Monkes and Pope I will answere his few Scriptures thervnto belonging Now then concerning the second sort and first Good-workes what he alleageth about them concerneth them partly in generall partly in speciall that is to say prayer fasting or almes About Good-works in generall Iustification Good works in generall it concerneth that he saith They do not iustifie wherevnto he alleageth two places one of S. Paule Pur. 450. the other of Esay We beleue saith he that a man is not iustified by workes but by faith onely Rom. 3. And yet we beleue that good workes are necessary to be in euery man that is iustified A faâ—sarie Iac. 5. The wordes of S. Iames be not as he saieth but expressely against him A man is iustified by workes and not by faith onely Where you sée also that it is in all one sense that works do iustifie and faith The words of S. Paule likewise be not as he saith but thus A man is iustified by faith without the workes of the law That is to say although he haue not euermore done the works which the law commaundeth to wit good works yea although he haue sometimes yea and alwayes done the cleane contrarie to wit all euill works yet let him come to the Catholike faith and he shall there finde a remedie for all and of a wicked and so wicked a man be made iuste all his sinnes and wickednes béeing remitted him This sayth S Paule and the same say we But after he is so iustified he must not do the like agayne he must then kéepe the commaundementes of the Law béeing now by Christ made a new man and able therevnto and by so doing he shall be more iustified as S. Iames saith Conferre these two places of S. Paules also The iustice that is of the Law qui fecerit homo the man that hath done it shall liue by it Rom. 10. ex Leuit. 18. Which is in effect that no man shall liue by it because no man hath done it but all men haue done against it all being borne in sinne therfore not by the works of iustice which we had done but according to his owne great mercy he saued vs by baptisme Tit. 3. Do you marke the tense He speaketh of works before faith where you should haue alleaged of works after faith And so withall is answered your other place Ar. 102. where you say that the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke which is the iustification of Saintes made white in the bloud of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esai 64. If God conuert your heart that you may returne to your mother the Catholike Churche you shall finde that she will make nothing of all the good workes which you do nowe in Heresie because it is but mans righteousnesse But the good workes whiche afterwarde in the Churche you shoulde haue of her husbande the Lambe where learned you to call them The filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Apoc. 19. He that doubteth whether those Iustifications of the faithfull in the Apocalipse be as I say iust workes the same Apostle if he will conferre places in
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
also for hereafter Euen as Fulke also him selfe saith Ar. 78. Pur. 298. In despight of the diuel and all her enemies she is to this day preserued and shall be to the worlds ende and none other but she Moti 48. 51 Apostasie Last of al I shew that it is not so much an Heresie as a plaine Apostasie from Christ that the Protestants haue brought in vnder the name of the Gospel Wherof also I haue said ynough ca. 8. pag. 118. So that if it were euer damnable to giue eare to any Heretikes it is damnable to giue eare to these Which it were good for all men to thinke earnestly vpon before it be to late ¶ The eleuenth Chapter What grosse Contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof BEsides all that hath bene yet said another most iust motiue not to follow the Protestants may be this to any reasonable man because they know not themselues what to holde nor what to say and therefore doe vtter straunge contradictions in their bookes by reason that they will say any thing rather then yéelde plainely to the trueth A notable ensample hereof we haue in Fulke specially about the question of the Church in his booke of the Articles as I will here note very briefely leauing to the discrete Readers consideratiō what I might enlarge vpon euery particular First as touching the Church of Rome on the one side thus he saith Ar. 96. You are neuer able to answere the argumentes that Peter was neuer at Rome And then where is the Apostolike Sea succession c Then on the contrarie side The Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles b Pur. 373.361.374 it was an Apostolike Church 2 c Pur. 373.374 Those auncient Fathers whom D. Allen doth name the last of them is Vincentius Lirinensis An. 420. did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies and c Pur. 373.374 among the Apostolike Churches specially named the Church of Rome because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles Yet contra where d Apud Au. de gra Chr. cont Pelag. c. 43 Pelagius within that compasse commended S. Ambrose for the Romaine faith and most pure sence in the Scriptures Fulke saith therevpon e Pu. 405. And by the way note here the Hereticall bragge of the Romaine faith 3 Speaking of the same Fathers and Church of Rome f Pur. 374. It had by Succession reteined euē vntill their dayes that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra g Ar. 85. She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly Succession of Bishops except so many Schismes as they write of be orderly Successions By the time of those Fathers there had bene foure Schismes 4 h Pur. 373.374 It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles h Pur. 373.374 it reteined by Succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles Contra He charged it with sundrie errors here Cap. 3. .4 namely P. Liberius with Arrianisme P. Innocentius for housling of Infantes eight Popes for the Supremacie 5 i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. It was a true Church an Apostolike Church i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. a faithfull Church true i Pur. 374. Ar. 79. and Apostolike Faith and Religion haue dwelled in her Contra k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 The Church of Rome neuer preached the word of trueth She neuer had sence she first arose the ministring of Sacramentes according to Christes institution The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen Heresies of all sortes But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with Heretikes k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 Rome may be a nurse of Antichristians but neuer did good vnto Christians k Ar. 85.16 106.10.27 I am able to proue that the Primitiue Church affirmed a Supra pag. 29. your Church to be the Church of Antichrist He meaneth the l Supra ca. 9. pag. 155. places of S. Irenée S. Hierome S. Augustine calling Rome Babylon which he vnderstandeth as though they had so called the Church of Rome in their time also as the Protestants doe now at this time 6 m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full out of which all Nations haue drunke m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. Euen from the Apostles time the diuell neuer left to set in his foote for his sonne Antichristes dominion vntill he had placed him in the Temple of God prepared the wide world for his walke and then came m Ar. 102.38 Pur. 287. The Generall defection Contra Ar. 38.16.33.34 Supr p. 117. All Nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes For as it hath bene often said the Greeke Church and all other Orientall Churches of Asia and Africa neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie they will not vnto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike nor her authoritie to be lawfull And yet we shall now heare that the preuailing of the Popes religion and his Antichristian exaltation consisteth specially in that point Ar. 36. 7 The religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obteined his Antichristian exaltation to wit Bonifacius the 3. of Phocas the Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church Contra in the same place Because you speake of the first entring of Popish religion which dependeth chiefly vpon the Popes authoritie it first began to aduaunce it selfe in Victor about the yere of our Lord 200. And likewise in diuers others before S. Bonifacius the third as he confesseth here cap. 3. and withall that the Church of Rome all that while was the Church of Christ and not of Antichrist Ar. 102. Pur. 287.238 8 The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie Euen in the Apostles time and from that time in all times whensoeuer and wheresoeuer was any peece of myste or darke corner though all the reste were light there were the steppes of your walke It may be a shame for you Papistes to leaue and condemne for heresie all that is true in the Fathers writings and agreable to the Scripture Ar. 43. Contra where he distinguisheth the Religion of the Papistes from the great heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chief foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Sabellians and such like monsters Ar. 43.36.38 Supra c. 10. pag. 223. 9 We say not that the Religion of the Papists came in sodenly but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espyed by the true Pastors beeing earnestly occupied against great
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
with them who by his owne confession had in their time the true Church Tenthly because all D. Allens Articles are in effect contained in my Motiues and Demaundes I will examine what he answereth not to my probations for to them or any one of them he lightly answereth not as I say afore but euen to the bare titles of them And for as much as his answeres will soone appeare to be no answers I will examine whether at the leastwise he obiecteth any thing to the purpose to the end that when thou shalt sée that all is so litle or rather nothing at all thou maist perceaue that God for his Churches glory blinded them to send such a booke abroade Which thou shalt againe more plainely perceaue in the eleuenth Chapter where I will lay forth his marueilous grosse and palpable contradictions yea and in great numbers also And againe as plainely in the twelft Chapter where I will display certaine straunge and detestable positions of his and also his ignoraunce in the Scriptures and other learning Theologicall To the which I might but for prolixitie ioyne many ensamples perteining to a falsarie putting him in minde withall of his horrible blasphemies as him selfe also must confesse them to be because he can not auoide it but that the Church against whom he hath poured them is the true Church In the conclusion I will amongst some other things aduertise the Reader what more may be desired for the full iustifying of the booke of Purgatorie though this much be ynough and superabundaunt but for iustification of the Articles that no more can be desired But now let vs come to the perfourming of these our promisses Ar. and Pur. in the margins signifie the page of Fulkes bookes against the Articles and against Purgatorie ¶ A REPLY TO FVLKE In defence of M. D. Allens scroll of Articles and booke of Purgatorie ¶ The first Chapter That he confesseth out of the true Church to be no saluation THis I shew briefly and most plainly by his owne words as where he saith The house of refuge or defence may be applied to the Church Ar. pag. 108. out of which is no saluation and in whose bosome it becommeth euery man to rest which shall looke for the refuge and defence of God Ar. 83. And in an other place There is no man of what age or yeres soeuer he be that can be saued except he be a mēber of the Catholike Church Agayne This we affirme that out of the Church there is no saluation Agayne We vtterly denie that beside the true Church Ar. 62. Ar. 76. there was an vntrue church that practised those offices of baptizing and other spirituall actions to the saluation of any man And agayne No man aliue Ar. 73. that knoweth what the true Church meaneth will say that any man can be saued out of the true Church For he that is not a member of the body of Christ can by no meane receiue any benefit of Christ to his saluation Therfore this is certaine that out of this Church none could be saued This then béeing so confessed as in our Church it is also openly practised first in baptisme to take men in then in reconciliation if they went or were cast afterwarde out to receiue them in againe I will stande no longer vpon it but procéede further ¶ The second Chapter That he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres after Christ and the knowen members thereof THis likewise will be euident by his owne wordes if the Catholike eare can beare his blasphemies withall first if we consider what he writeth of the Romans and their Bishops both since Bonifacius the third and also afore him Ar 35. Being asked What yere the religion of the Papists came in and preuayled Thus he answereth We may well say that the religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled that yeare in which the Pope first obteined his antichristian exaltation which was in the yere of our Lord 607 when Boniface the third for a great summe of money obteined of Phocas the trayterous murtherer and adultrous Emperour that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the head of all the Church And what after that Since that time saith he that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yeare of our Lorde 1414. Wherevpon in other places he saith agayne Ar. 27. Pur. 344 From Boniface the third all blasphemous heretikes and antichristes And agayne Or any succeeded Boniface the third which beside their abhominable life were all heretikes and antichristes And where he speaketh of the olde Doctors by and by he addeth as in an antithesis Pur. 405 Nay rather count vpon the Popes to be pillers of your Church Doctours of your learning and Fathers of your fayth that haue bene within these seuen or eyght hundred yeres By this that he saith of the time after Boniface the third you perceyue his confession as touching the time afore him Yet to make it more playne he shall expressely make him selfe his owne confession Pur. 194. Gregory was the last of all the Romishe Bishops in whom was any sparke of goodnes because Boniface his successor See pag. and all the rest by Gregories owne iudgement and prophecie were all Antichristes And moste manifestly in an other place Pur. 372 where D. Allen vrgeth the succession of the Romane Bishops by example of Ireneus Cyprian Tertullian Optatus Hierome Augustine and Vincentius Lirinensis who confounded therewith all heretikes and saith It is a straunge thing that the Fathers hauing then store of Apostolike Successions did euer choose out for the warrant of their fayth from amongst the rest the Romane Seate and nowe when there is no Apostolike Churche lefte in the whole worlde but it that they will not haue vs referre our fayth to it which was euer of all other moste free from falshood To this Fulke in his aunswere saith That these men specially named the Churche of Rome it was because the Churche of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles And a litle after As for that which M. Allen counteth so straunge it is for lacke of skill and right iudgement For the same cause that moued those auncient Fathers to appeale to the iudgement of the Churche of Rome moueth vs nowe to condemne the Churche of Rome of heresie Wherefore did they reuerence the Churche of Rome Aske Tertullian he answereth True doctrine in the true Churche hovv long because it had by Succession reteyned euen vntill his dayes that fayth which it did first receyue of the Apostles Therefore it was a true Churche therefore it was an Apostolike Churche This answere he learned of his master Caluine who in his Institutions first putteth downe our allegation saying Cal. Ins li. 4. ca. 2 nu 2.3 Magnifice illi quidem suam nobis Ecclesiam commendant Allegant enim
eam apud se initio sana doctrina sanguine Martyrum bene fundatam perpetua Episcoporum Successione conseruatam fuisse ne intercideret Commemorant quanti hanc Successionē fecerint Irenaeus Tertullianus Origenes Augustinus alij that is They in deede set foorth vnto vs their Churche very gloriously for they alleage that beeing in the beginning well founded amongest them with sounde doctrine and with the bloud of Martyres it was by the continuall Succession of Bishoppes preserued from decaying They report out of Irenaeus Tertullian Origene Augustine and others howe highly they esteemed this Succession And then he putteth herevnto his owne aunswere saying Cum extra controuersiam esset nihil a principio vsque ad illam aetatem mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. that is Considering that it was a playne case that from the beginning euen vntill that time nothing was chaunged in doctrine the holy Doctors tooke in argument that which was sufficient for the ouerthrowing of all newe errors to witte That they oppugned the doctrine which euen from the verye Apostles them selues had bene inuiolably and with one consent reteined This graunt both of the master and of his Scholar as more by a great deale then in this Chapter we néeded The true Churche not onely to haue continued so long it selfe but also to haue kepte inuiolably and generally with one accorde the true faith and true doctrine which of the Apostles thē selues she had receiued The like he confesseth of our owne Countrey also Ar. 49. where he saith The Church of the Brytaines before Augustine whom Saint Gregory sent from Rome to conuert the English in our said countrey of Britannie came in with Romish seruice had they not trow you Authentical Seruice which continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time To which confession let it be added out of S. Bedes Storie that the a Bed hist li. 2. ca. 4.2 li. 3. ca. 25. greatest point wherein the Christian Brytons and our Apostle S. Augustine differed was about the kéeping of Easter day and that also not so great as in olde time betwéene S. Victor of Rome and the Christians of Asia as this man ignorantly b Pur. 371. here ca. 10. pag. somwhere affirmeth that is to say not whether it should be alwayes kept with the Iewes vpon the verye day of the full Moone according to the heresie of the c Aug. heresi 29. Tessaresdecatite or Quartadecimani for that obseruation d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Britannie as the Emperour d Eus in vita Const li. 3. ca. 28. Constantinus witnesseth detested no lesse then other prouinces at the time of the Nicene Councell but onely vpon what e Beda supra sonday it should be kept So then this being their greatest difference and yet therein also the right obseruation being that which was brought from Rome as no man will denie you sée what graunt this man must make as to Britannie so likewise to Rome at that time to witte not onely the true Churche but withall the same faith which the Apostles taught though in this Chapter as I haue alreadie said we looke no more but for the true Church Which same true Church he graunteth againe many other wayes vnto the Romanes and their Bishops in that he geueth it to sundry notable personages and companies that were in vnitie and in one Church with the said Romaines as to the auncient Doctors and Councels to the Martyrs Monkes and other Christians not onely that frequented those Cryptes or holye vautes vnder the heathen and persecuting Emperours but also that gathered themselues afterward in those magnificall newe Temples vnder the Christian Catholike Emperours and finally to those Catholike Emperours themselues euen to Mauritius who liued with S. Gregory Ar. 60. Of the Doctors his confession is this The most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostamus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. were doubtles members of the true Church of Christ Againe Ar. 71. The Church of the Arians was not the Catholike Church but Athanasius and a a Such is his skill in the storie of that time few other that were banished and persecuted were the true Catholike Church Againe b Ar. 59. Iustinus Martyr and Irenaeus two of the most auncient authenticall writers that the Church next vnto the Apostles had And againe c Pur. 434. The old doctors had their measure of Gods spirit Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods spirit and both martyrs Againe Pur. 405. The Doctors of Gods Church Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome Basill c. Againe It is a good argument Ar. 27. that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment and ministerie and especially the succession of d A proper distribution the Popes in all ages to be ours and yet the Apostles Doctors to be his Sapientes confitentur non abscondunt patres suos quoth Eliphaz against Iob. cap. xv Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers But our Church which hath not had so many registers chroniclers and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer but yet honester men to name we can name Peter Paul c. Iustinus Irenaeus Cyprianus Athanasius Hilarius Ambrosius Augustinus Gyldas c Then as touching auncient Councels thus he saith f Ar. 97. The foure best generall councels were gathered by our Churche Againe g Pur. 430. Pur. 296. If any Councell decree according to the Scriptures as the Councell of the Apostles did Act. 15 and the Councell of Nice with diuers other we receaue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God To this place of Doctors and Councels pertaineth that also which he confesseth of the Church that resisted and ouercame the olde heresies as where D. Allen had said It is not you that shall outface Gods Church she hath by the spirit of God beaten downe your proudders the Arrians the Macedonians the Anabaptistes as the Donatistes c. and all your predecessors He answereth 297. You boast that your Church hath beaten downe our proudders the Arrians Macedonians Anabaptistes It was the Church of Christ that ouerthrewe those Heretikes And in an other place likewise Ar. 10. I demaund saith D. Allen what Church hath mightely gone through borne downe fully vanquished all heresies in times past aswell against the blessed Trinitie as other articles of our Religion I answere saith Fulke the true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the worde of God as her dutie was and fought against them with the sworde of the spirite which is the word of God and by the aide of God obtained the victory and triumphed ouer them So did the fathers of the primitiue Church from time to time confute heresies by the
Scriptures and declare in their writinges that by them they are to be confuted for examples sake of a great number I will alleage a fewe and he alleageth Hilarius Basilius Magnus Chrysostome Augustine Leo the first Bishop of Rome and the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt And so concludeth saying Thus I haue declared by ensample and authoritie of these fathers that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all heretikes onely by the Scripture If onely by the scriptures See cap. 9. par 2. pag. Ar. 52. so much the better you doe like of her and that in this Chapter nothing misliketh me Now let vs see what he confesseth of the auncient Monkes also The Church of God saith he hath alwayes had Scholes or Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning for the first colledges of Monkes in solitarie places were nothing els but Colledges of studentes that were afterward as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrisostom in his booke de Sacerdotio where he sheweth that Basilius who was a Monke with him was taken by violence and made a minister of the Church as he him selfe was afterward Also in the Bishops house was a Colledge of studentes and our histories testifie that at Bangor in Wales was a great vniuersitie of learned men Whether S. Chrysostome S. Basill and those other auncient Monkes both in our owne and also in other countreys were nothing else but studentes it is not the question of this place See cap. 10. dem 25. pag. but onely doe I note here that he confesseth them to haue bene of the Church of God Then as concerning the times first of persecution afterward of peace vnder the Emperours both heathen and Christian he vttereth his confession of the true Church in these wordes Our assemblies were kept in secret places Ar. 51.52 long time after Christes ascension in most Countries that were subiect to the Romane Empire and when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church he builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas for our assemblies and Seruice Also necessarie furniture for the seruice of God was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors that were of our Church before the reuelation of Antichrist that is as before you heard his meaning before the time of Bonifacius the thirde Pur. 342. Likewise in an other place he confesseth both those Caues and Vaultes vnder the earth that the olde Christian Bishops were content to serue in before the time of Constantine and also those princely buildinges that by Constantine and other Christian Princes were first set vp for the publike exercise of Christian Religion To which times belongeth also that wherein he confesseth the conuersion of Nations by the true Church saying It did not onely require but also subdue all Nations to the obedience of the faith Ar. 97. so many as were euer subdued in the dayes of the first Christian Emperours and before Finally he confesseth the Emperours yet more expressely and more particularly saying Ar. 33. It is an easie matter to name you the Emperours and princes which both offered to the ministers of iustice in the right of our Church and also mainteined our faith and congregation by Ciuill lawes as Constantine the great Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Archadius Honorius Marcianus Iustinianus Mauricius and diuers others And to signifie that he meaneth these Emperours to haue bene such as he would wish for he addeth of the latter Emperours and saith I passe ouer as to well knowen many of the Grecian Emperours Likewise I passe ouer Charles the great I will not rehearse those later Germane Princes that c. For although these and such like defended some part of the trueth which we holde against you yet least you should obiect it was but in one or two poyntes I passe them ouer with silence And so much for the true Church in the first 600. yeares ¶ The third Chapter That he confesseth the foresaid true Church to haue made so plainely with vs in very many of the controuersies of this time that he is faine to hold that the But not his Caluinicall Church true Church may erre and also hath erred AFter all this so smoothly by him confessed of the true Church and sometime also of the long continuing thereof in incorruption if any man maruell to heare nowe that yet withall he holdeth the same true Church at the same time to haue bene corrupted and to haue erred let him sée here in the eleuenth Chapter his manifolde manifest contradictions he will quickly leaue his marueiling the matter he shal perceiue is not so straunge in this man but very vsuall common to contrarie him selfe as it is also no rare thing in his master Caluine and the other heretical writers of our time But here in the meane while be it disagréeing or be it agréeing with that which he hath confessed already Infra ca. 11. cōtradict 4. I will in this present Chapter laye forth his words first generally that the true Church may erre and afterwarde of the particuler errors common to the true Church then and to our Church now The first part That the true Church may erre Ar. 86 Therefore that the true Church may erre thus he saith The true and onely Church of Christ can neuer be voyde of God his spirite and yet she may erre from the trueth and be deceiued in some things And a litle after Wherefore the whole Churche militant consisting of men which are all lyars may erre all together Ar. 88. Agayne The true and onely Church of God as it is declared before hath no such priuilege graunted but that she may be deceiued in some things And there beneath And if it may erre and be deceiued it selfe what man is he that neede to doubt whether it may induce any error among the people In so much that he is bolde to say in an other place Pur. 367 368. Of an hundred argumentes that S. Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians this insultation that their heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church was one of the feeblest which tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of truth that is in it but by their confession and graunt In so much agayne that a few lines after he saith to D. Allen or rather to S. Augustine if it be truely scanned In deede they were but sory whelpes that could not say baffe to the bleating of such a calfe as you are Modestly which thinke that such a foolish cauill can cary credite with them that haue any cromme of brayne in their heades to wit The Church prayeth so therefore it is true Ar. 83.84 Moreouer in an other If you meane as it seemeth and as the rest of the Papistes doe interprete that Article I beleeue the Catholike Church that is I beleeue whatsoeuer the Church doth allow to be true I denie that it is
necessarie to saluation that a Christian man should so beleeue the Catholike Church because the Church may erre Agayne in the same place But to beleeue al and euery thing that the Catholike Church by common consent doth mainteine is no Article of our fayth and therfore not necessarie to saluation The second part That the true Church did also erre and that in the same poyntes as we now do erre in j. Where he chargeth them with many poynts together Now further that the true Church did also in dede erre first in the same poyntes wherein our Church now erreth as they charge it thus he saith Ar. 35. Si patrem f. Beelzebub vocauerun◠quanto magis domesticos eius◠Matt. x. Many abuses and corruptions were entred into the Churche of Christe immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist By Antichrist he meaneth God forgiue him his blasphemie the vicar of Christ him selfe and so consequently by that preparatiue he meaneth such poynts of the Popes religion as are found agaynst the Protestantes in antiquitie Where to minister him some light by the way if it may please God to open his eyes let him consider that he must confesse no lesse Infra c. 11. cont 8. yea much more that the Arian Sabellian Nestorian and infinit other old Heresies detested now of both our parts were a preparatiue for Antichrist and therfore séeing that Bonifacius the third and the other Popes after him haue not receiued those confessed heresies that it followeth necessarily therof that the Popes are not Antichrist But that I stray not further from my matter but rather reserue euery thing to his proper place he cōmeth else where to particularities and saith Pu. 419. And this was a great corruption of those auncient times that they did not always weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse What any thing without exception Go too then and name somewhat for ensample So they tooke the signe of the crosse from the Valentinians What more Oblations for the days of death and byrth of the Gentiles Foorth a Gods name Prescript times of fasting and vnmeasurable extolling of Sole life in the ministers of the Church from the Manichees Tacianistes and Montanistes And yet what more Prayer for the dead of the Montanistes Forth agayne Purgatory fire of the Origenistes Say on still Yea Ieronym was almost fallen into the heresie of Tertullian in condemning seconde mariage Once more to ease that stomacke Yea euen the name of sacrifice which was commonly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles All these eyght poyntes he so noteth in the Fathers of Gods Church together in one place Againe in an other place after the sayings of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus alleaged Ar. 60. The other writers of later yeres saith he we are not afrayd to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayers for the dead and diuers superstitious superfluous Ceremonies And that to the same they were no lesse addicted then we are he confesseth plainly where he graunteth that they accounted the contrarie for no better then heresie Ar. 44.45 46. You may perchaunce saith he note the names of them that preaching the truth of our doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world for Heretikes And a litle after I wil not dissemble that which you thinke the greatest matter Well then confesse the truth Aerius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they count for an error Also he taught that fasting dayes are not to be obserued if he espied the superstition of fasting dayes and reproued it that was no error at all And who els Iouinian affirmed that virginitie was no better then mariage which if it be well vnderstood is no error at all And if he taught further that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried Moreouer if he taught that fasting abstinence from certaine meates and other bodily exercise of them selues profite litle it was no error he saith and yet S. Ieronyme was a most bitter enemie vnto Iouinian Any more Last of all Vigilantius wrote agaynst Inuocation of Saintes superstition of Reliques and other Ceremonies Him Ieronym reproueth or rather rayleth on him Modestly for his reasons are nothing worth that he hath against him Therefore howsoeuer Ieronym esteemed him in his rage if he had none other opinions contrary to the trueth we doubt not to acknowledge Vigilantius as many godly and learned Bishops of his time did for a true preacher and reprehender of that superstition whervnto Ieronym was to much addict He said afore that he would not dissemble and yet you sée his ifs and Hierome alone against many godly and learned Bishoppes Therefore to make it yet more playne howe in clearing these Heretikes he chargeth the Fathers I must report what he hath likewise in other places ij As touching Vigilantius and inuocation of Saintes by it selfe As where D. Allen said Pur. 306 310. So their citing out of S. Ambrose for the improuing of the inuocation of holy Saintes is no more but an abuse of the simples ignorance knowing well that he and all other of that time did practise prayers both often to all holy Martyrs and sometimes peculiarly to such whom for patronage they did especially choose of deuotion amongest the rest To this he answereth Honorably Touching Ambrose which was sodenly made a Bishop before he was a perfect Christian if some steppes of Hethenish Inuocation or Rhetoricall apostrophees and prosopopees appeare to be in him and some other about his time yet was not that generally receiued of all the Church in his time Also where the question is asked Ar. 39. Whether men began sodenly to require the helpe of Saintes in heauen He answereth Whether sodenly or by litle and litle man were brought to suche superstition that they required helpe of Saintes it maketh litle matter yet it is to be thought that it grewe vp as other errors by litle and litle And S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the ende can define nothing in certayne Howe the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Pur. 315.316.317 Although he can not define Howe yet neuerthelesse sayth D. Allen he nothing doubteth but intercession maye profitably be made to them and that also for the deceased Wherevnto Fulke sayth agayne Augustine in hys booke De cura pro mortuis agenda is full of doubtes that he knoweth not hym selfe what to determine but that he wyll holde the common opinions receaued in his time And
beneath M. Allen affirmeth that S. Augustine neuer doubteth but intercession may be made vnto them for the dead whosoeuer wil take the paines to reade the treatise de cura pro mortuis ageÌ„da shal find nothing els but doubtes and questions of that matter So he saith not marking what him selfe there citeth out of that booke August de â—ur cap. 16. to witte where S. Augustine concludeth the whole matter in the end and saith Ista questio vires intelligentiae meae vincit quemadmoduÌ„ opitulantur Martyres ijs quos per eos Certum est opitulari This question passeth the strength of mine vnderstanding how the Martyrs helpe them whom it is certain to be helped of them Certum est saith S. Augustine and Fulke alleageth it and euen so Englisheth it it is certaine and yet onely because he can not define Howe as to this day also it remaineth a very hard question he sticketh not againe to say there immediatly These places and the whole discourse of that booke doth proue that although Augustine were willing to maintaine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time about Burialls and Inuocation of Saintes yet he hath nothing of certaintie c. At least wise this declareth that S. Ambrose and S. Augustine are ioyned of him with S. Hierome in that error Hier. li. 2. con Vigil and not with Vigilantius amongst those many godly and learned Byshops of that time of whom also he hath no author so to count them by S. Hierome it appeareth that they were very few vngodly and vnlearned and against all the thrée Patriarchal Churches of the East of Egypt and of the See Apostolike in that they tooke part with Vigilantius and so with Iouinianus condemned by the authoritie of the Romane Church And so much of the auncient true Churches erring in Inuocation of sainctes iij. As touching Iouinian of fasting of Virginities merite of Vâ—â—aries mariage Now to adde more likewise of their erring in condemning of Iouinian D. Allens wordes are these Iouinianus taught the contempt of Christian fastes matched mariage with holy maidenhood Pur. 11.13 and afterward to the great wonder of all the Church perswaded certaine religious women in Rome to forsake their first faith Hier. con Ioui li. 2. and mary to their damnation for which plaine supporting of vndoubted wickednes S. Hierome calleth them often Christian Epicures boulsterers of sinne and doctors of lust and lecherie Neuerthelesse the force of Gods grace which was great in the spring of our Religion the sinne of the world not yet ripe for such open shew of licentious life speedely repressed that wicked attempt for as S. Augustine declareth it was so cleare a falshood that it neuer grew to deceaue any one of all the Cleargie Fulkes answere herevnto is no more but this If Iouinian were so great an heretike as you make him yet he him selfe as you shew after out of Augustine offended not in that which he perswaded others to doe He meaneth that place when D. Allen somewhat after speaketh of these newe Superintendentes and ministers and saith that they much exeede Iouinianus Pur. 17.22 who as Augustine reporteth of him being a Monke mainteined the mariage of Votaries but yet for diuers inconueniences him selfe for all that would not be maried August ad quod haer 28. And there to S. Augustine by name he saith nothing but turneth his talke to D. Allen demauÌ„ding of him thus Where learned you but of the diuell him selfe to commaund abstinence from meates and mariage for Religions sake to some men at all times and to all men at some times If for these and for an hundreth such you can shewe no better warrant then the termes of your fathers A good child the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortal men the curse of God pronounced by Esay against them that call euill good or good euill must needes be turned ouer vnto you With the same boldnes in an other place where D. Allen had giueÌ„ this obseruation You shal not lightly heare an heretike that denyeth praying to sainctes Pur. 4â—1 402. or holdeth with open breach of holy vowes alleage Iouinianus or Vigilantius But they will trauaile to writhe with plaine iniurie to the author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that by their whole life and practise open them selues to the world to beleeue the contrarie He saith thervnto M. Allen geueth a speciall note that we name not Iouinian or Vigilantius but rather hang vpon some sentence of Augustine or Ambrose and thinketh we are ashamed of the other But we neither boast vpon Augustine nor Ambrose when they dissent from our doctrine neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith iiij As touching Ceremonies Likewise of their erring in Ceremonies and such other traditions this he saith more besides that which I haue already reported Pur. 256 Their time he speaketh of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius the great had diuers errors and superstitious Ceremonies Againe Ar. 91. If the Church had not approued many vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages among the people in S. Augustines time what neede had he to complaine that many of God his commaundementes were litle regarded and mans presumptions so highly esteemed See the answer cap. 6. pag. Sed hoc nimis doleo c. But herewith I am to much greeued that many things which in God his booke are most holsomely commaunded are lesse regarded and all things are so ful of so many presumptions that he is more greeuously reproued which in his Vtas hath touched the earth with his bare foote then he that hath buried his minde in dronkennes So farre out of S. Augustine Therefore if it be an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage to preferre mans traditions before God his commaundements the Church in S. Augustines time approued an vnprofitable and hurtfull vsage Furthermore if the Churche can not approue an vnprofitable or hurtfull vsage wherefore are so many Ceremonies as were approued in S. Augustine and S. Ambroses times abrogated and disanulled either because they were vnprofitable Pur. 391. Tert. de coro mil. or else hurtfull Againe where D. Allen sayth They confesse Tertullian 1300. yeares agoe to haue practised oblations for the dead And aske him where he had it for surely he inuented it not him selfe and he appointeth vs to his forefathers He nameth the Apostles for the authors and founders thereof as of many other thinges which he there reckeneth beside that were generally receaued and now be of heretikes likewise condemned Pu. 400 393.264 He answereth Tertullian fathered manifest fables vpon the institution of Christ and the Apostles as you your selfe * Infra cap. 6. pag. can not denie if you haue any conscience at all As On the Sonday and betweene Easter and Whitsontide not to fast or pray vpon our knees Also To crosse our selues in the foreheade at all thinges
time was no such time but that he and al his felowes though they held the foundation of Christ yet might did erre in some opinions contrary to the truth of Gods word And agayne Cyprian and al the Bishops of Aphrica were notwithstanding their error of Heretiks baptisme to be no baptisme in the vnity of the church In all these places he alludeth although he neuer expresse it to S. Pauls saying 1. Cor. 3. that The foundation is Iesus Christ and if any man buyld vpon this foundation he shal be saued yea also though his buylding or worke be wood or straw such to witte as will wast away in the day of fire Let vs conferre with it this saying Matt. 7. He buildeth vpon the Rocke which heareth or beléeueth my sayings Aug. in Ps 103. cor 3. de fide op ca. 16. Gala. 5. and worketh them S. Augustine expoundeth it most aptly in very many places when he saith that Christ to be in the foundation is that he haue the principall place in our heart and nothing at all be preferred before him Which is done if he dwel in our hearts by a working faith for That fayth which by loue worketh being layde in the foundation suffereth none to perish So that if we be either out of faith or out of charitie then be we without this sauing foundation As are all they that eyther beléeue any one heresie or breake any one commaundement by any mortall sinne For so saith S. Paule expresly of Heresies with all other works of the flesh Gala. 5. That they which do such thinges shall not inherite the kingdome of God For which purpose agayne thrée places are diligently to be conferred in all which the first part of the sentence he chaungeth not at all but the other part he varieth thrée wayes 1. Cor. 7. Gala. 5. Gala. 6. geuing vs playnly thereby his meaning In Christ Iesus saith he neither circumcision nor vncircumcision is ought or can do ought but a new man but fayth working by charitie but keeping of Gods commaundementes This is the truth But nowe commeth Fulke with an other exposition which first requireth not workes of charitie or obseruation of the cōmaundements nor secondly also so much as fidem integram inuiolatamque a sound and vncorrupted faith but onely to holde this one article of faith to beleeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God And if any man erre about other articles and that also so obstinately that he condemneth his aduersaries for heretikes yet he holdeth the foundation and by vertue of it shall be saued notwithstanding and so did S. Augustine and those other Fathers and therefore they were of the true Church and are saued Howe much more warely dealt your maister Peter Martyr vpon this place to the Corinthians who séeing the absurdities hereof Pet. Mar in 1. Cor. thought better to say that the Fathers in the agonie of their death acknowledged their errors Et non raro fit c. It happeneth often saith he that such as in their whole life time had not the gift to thinke a right of Religion haue it often geuen them at the last houre to vnderstand in the agonie of death that the superstitions and abuses to which afore they had yealded them selues were both vaine and also hurtfull Which thing I would not doubt to haue happened to Bernard Frauncise Dominike and many of the auncient Fathers because liuing in the foundation that is in Christ although they builded many abuses and very many superstitions yet they might be saued howbeit through fire what time at the last houre they wrestled against death and the terrors of their sinnes and in that wrastling acknowledged the vanitie of their fansies Thus you sée how they are troubled to saue them whom no lesse then vs they should but dare not to condemne and while they labour so to do they do it specially Fulke by such meanes as no lesse serueth to saue vs. For who knoweth not that we beléeue in the onely Sonne of God and in the onely mercy of God and that therefore we looke not to be saued by our owne works that is to say which we did without him as when we were in Paganisme or in Iudaisme or in Caluinisme and any other heresie or finally in any mortall sinne but onely by his workes that is by his Sacraments that of his great mercy he hath instituted for vs the good déeds that of his great mercy he hath created in vs in Christ Iesus euen as S. Paule saith Tit. 3. Not for any works of righteousnes that we did before Baptism quae fecimus nos but for his mercy he hath saued vs by Baptisme per lanacrum generationis that thou maist sée his mercy and his sacrament stande well together Eph. 2. And againe for wee be his new creature created in Christ Iesus in good workes And therefore afore we were in Christ Iesus we had no works to saue vs but they are our workes only in Christ Iesus that saue vs. For so the same S. Paule teacheth vs as I said afore what it is that in Christ Iesus is of power to saue vs to wit our new creation in these good workes our faith working by charitie our kéeping of Gods commaundementes so that againe his mercy in Christ Iesus and his creature or good workes in Christ Iesus stand well together And euen thus did also those old fathers beléeue of the Sacraments of good workes Supra pag. whom he confesseth notwithstanding to haue beléeued in the onely Iesus Christ the onely mercy of God beléeuing likewise the communion of prayers betwixt all that are in Christ Iesus Infra pag. either quick or dead as him selfe likewise confessed of thē in the .3 Supra pag. Chap. And therfore séeing they notwithstanding that are confessed to haue beléeued in the onely sonne the only mercy of God we no lesse for all that our beliefe must be likewise confessed to beléeue the same onely foundation and so consequently to haue likewise the true Churche and saluation be the impudent audacitie of Fulke neuer so great to say that we build vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Euen as his friendes and masters be altogether as lustie with the Fathers them selues Flaccus Illyric in Claue Scripturae parte i. in praef one of them saying of S. Hierome by name that he was Et morbi humani medici Christi ignarus ignorant both of mans disease and of Christ the Phisitian Therefore let him wrangle as much as he will this is the plaine case euery indifferent man doth sée all like both in vs and in the Fathers about his supposed foundation if they helde it we hold it if we holde it not Infra
scient quia ego dilexi te and they shall knowe that I haue loued thee Which all if you also did knowe you would not say thus in one place to vs Euen in the Apostles time when the superstition of Angels beganne to be receiued there was one steppe of your way Pur. 287. which you holde euen to this day Colos 2. iiij Of abstinence from fleshmeat and from mariage Nowe to another error common to the Fathers and to vs Supra ca. 3. pa. 2. diui 2. You sayde in the same thirde Chapter and confessed that they counted Aerius an heretike for teaching against our prescript Fastingdayes and so Iouinianus likewyse for denying the merite of abstinence from fleshe and from mariage and for licensing therevpon Votaries and Priestes to marrie You on the other syde charged the Fathers and saide Pur. 419. that they tooke prescript tymes of Fasting and vnmeasurable so you terme it extolling of Sole life in the Cleargie frō the Manichees Tacianistes Montanistes But you bring no proofe thereof Ar. 45. Onely this you haue in another place Augustine by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius with abstinence from fleshe If this bee an heresie then bee all Papistes heretikes which count abstinence from fleshe an holy fast Still you take Richard for Robert These thrée heresies condemned fleshe mariage as pertaining to the yll God and not to the good God according to the heresie of the Valentinians before them So writeth S. Augustine of the Tocianistes or Eucratites Nuptias damnant c. They condemne mariages August ad quoduult haer 25.40 53. and esteeme of them all a like as of fornications and other pollutions neither admitte they to their number any that vseth mariage be it man or be it womā Non vescuntur carnibus easque omnes abominantur They eate no flesh but count all flesh abominable He hath there of Apostolici or Apotactite likewise saying Eucratitis isti similes sunt c. These are like to the Eucratites They receiue not into their Societie them that vse mariage and haue proprietie Such as the Catholike Churche hath both Monkes and of the Cleargie very many Sed ideo isti haeretici sunt c. But therefore these are heretikes because separating them selues from the Churche they thinke that there is no hope for them which vse these thinges that they do not vse Nowe saieth he of the Aerians afterwarde Some saye that these doe not admitte into their Societie but onely such as conteyne them from mariage and haue renounced all proprietie being therein like to the Eucratites or Apotactites Yet from flesh meate Epiphanius saieth not that they absteine But Philaster layeth to them also this abstinence What abstinence and howe from fleshmeate but such as in those Eucratites he had saide afore Sure it is that this Aerius of his maister called Eustathius Gang. con Can. 1.19 Soc. li. 2. cap. 33. had this heresie to whom therfore Concilium Gangrense sayeth Anathema and to all that holde the like to witte that a Christian vsing mariage and eating fleshe in Regnum Dei introire non possit can not enter into the kingdome of God Et spem non habeat Nor hath ought to hope for Though withall he taught Ieiunia praescripta auersanda that the prescript fastes shoulde be detested Dominicisque diebus ieiunandum and to fast on Sondayes iiij Of Ceremonies and Liturgies Ar. 91. Next after this you charge the auncient Church with approuing Ceremonies that were as you thinke vnprofitable and hurtfull because S. Augustine complained them of presumptions and because many of them are nowe abrogated I might here and in many other places exclaime against you as you did often against D. Allen vpon light causes for not quoting your testimonies and that you haue not read them in the authors but taken them out of some blinde or wilfull collector But to spare words all that I can and let the things only to cry agaynst you Doth not S. Augustine in the very same Epistle and the very same Chapter whence your place is taken of certayne that were more earnest for their owne priuate obseruations Au. ep 119. ad Ianuar. cap. 19. then for Gods commaundements as that against dronkennesse say constantly Tamen Ecclesia dei quae sunt contra fidem vel bonam vitam non approbat Yet the Church of God approueth not any thing that is against the faith or against good life And there also playnly distinguished those presumptions from such things as are eyther conteyned in the authorities of holy Scriptures or found in the statutes of Bishops Councels or fortified by custome of the whole Church Saying also in the Epistle next afore to the same man Au. ep 118 ad Ianuar cap. 5. that if the whole Church vse any thing it is a poynt of most insolent madnes only to call in question whether that thing should be so vsed Neither if some such vsages be afterward abrogated doth it folow therof Pur. 265.393.400 Tertul. de Cor. mil. Hier. adue◠Lucif Act. 15. that therfore they were before vnprofitable or hurtfull or not of the Apostles tradition though Tertullian affirme it S. Hierome also euen in Tertullians words or els that the Church is blasphemous which abrogateth them as you conclude For there might be good cause both of that afore and of this after as you sée euen in that decrée of the Apostles which is recorded also in the Scripture Of not eating bloud nor fleshe that hath not the bloud let out of it Likewise in that custome of the Apostles and of the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. for men publikely to praye and prophecie or preache bareheaded Which of Bishops in olde time and nowe also of Doctors yea in many countries of all preachers is not obserued What ordinarie authoritie the Church had in the Apostles time the same it hath still and also the same spirite to vnderstande what are the immutable grounds of Religion and what traditions howe and vpon what causes maye be chaunged Of euery particuler to giue a reason requireth a speciall worke by it selfe but generally the quicker witted maye consider that in a Nation when the fulnes thereof is baptized and the articles of faith throughly rooted there may iustly must néedefully be a great mutation in the Ceremonies specially of Baptismus adultorum and Missa Catechumanorum And so to plant the Euangelicall article of the Resurrection the Apostles vpon Sondayes and in Quinquagesima did forbid Solemne faste and Solemne genuflexions and the Church afterwarde muche more straictly what time the Manichées other heretikes put al their strength to plucke vp againe the Apostles plant But nowe all such heresies being by such diligence of the Church quite confounded and that marueilous article so fastned in all Christian hearts as it is wonderfull specially knowing what resistance and rebellion it hath suffred Now I say the Church might
wel be more remisse therin though yet she kepeth those Ceremonies still Aug. ep 86 Reade S. Augustine ad Casulanum of those matters where also besides this you shall finde also another generall reason according to the diuine wisdome of that most Ecclesiastical doctor to wit that it sufficeth if the Church haue vnitie of faith as it were intus in membris inwardly in her limmes and that she wel may withall haue diuersitie of obseruations as it were varietatem in veste varietie in her queenely garment according to the Psalme Psal 44. Which he speaketh for diuersitie of Ceremonies in sundry places at one time but it serueth for the like diuersitie in one place at sundry times as it is euident As for your boldnes with the Fathers for their Liturgies pronouncing that vndoubtedly they chaunged the auncient truth into their owne lately receiued errors Proc. apud Claud. de Sainctes praef in Liturg. or else why were they not content with the olde forme Proclus Bishop of Constantinople about a thousand yeres agoe answereth your Why telleth you that S. Basill and S. Chrysostome did no more but abridge the Liturgie of S. Iames the Apostle which thrée Liturgies the Councell in Trullo also doth acknowledge and that vpon iuste cause Can. 32. But that with errors they corrupted eyther it or any other forme which was vsed before them if any man be so farre gone so to thinke vpon your light worde for all the most renowmed credite of those Fathers let the studious of truth notwithstanding take the paynes to conferre those Liturgies and they shall easily be able of their owne inspection to controll you Supra pag. 21. as I also before in the third Chapter by playne demonstration disproued you for the same and namely in the very same article that forced you to this absurde and shameles shift v. Of Sacrifice and for the dead Now are we come to your next accusation of the auncient Church concerning Sacrifice concerning the dead The name of Sacrifice Pur. 419. which they coÌ„monly vsed for the celebration of the Lords supper they tooke vp of the Gentiles so you say but you proue it not You might as well say that they or the Apostles had it of the Gentiles to name that Sacrifice which Christ offered vpon the Crosse No syr they named it so because it was so and therfore Christ also said not This is I that was borne of the virgine though that were true but This is my body vpon the one Matt. 26. and This is my bloud vpon the other The Apostle also for the same cause saying of him that commeth therevnto vnworthily not that he is guyltie of Christ though that be true 1. Cor. 11. but that he is guyltie of his body and of his bloud because it is such a celebration of his death Wherevpon if you knew what is the sacrificing of a liue thing you should sée that how properly he was sacrificed on the Crosse in an open maner euen as properly he is sacrificed here in a mysticall maner The same Apostle therefore agayne saying that we haue an a Heb. 13. Altar to eate of which place your blindnesse b Pur. 45â— alleageth against this Sacrifice and also calling it c 1. Cor. 10 The table of our Lorde in that forme of speache as he calleth c 1. Cor. 10 The table of the diuels the sacrifice of the Gentiles and the Leuiticall sacrifices likewise the Leuiticall c 1. Cor. 10 Altar Yet you can not find d Pur. 200 289. one word nor one syllable in the Scripture of any Sacrifice instituted by Christ at his last Supper Whereof we shall say more Cap. 10. Dem. 24. Purgatorie But to go forwarde with you to your accusation first of Purgatorie and afterward of Purgatorie fire To proue that Purgatory came of the Philosophers as al most notable heresies did Pur. 416. Tertul. de anima cap 31.32 you alleage out of Tertullian De anima that all Philosophers which graunted the soules immortalitie assigned three places for the soules departed heauen hell and a third place of purifying This argument proueth as well that heauen and hell and the Immortalitie of the soule had their originall of the Philosophers Howbeit also to report the truth there is no word of any third place of purifying but onely that such Philosophers made two sortes of Receptacles to wit Supernas mansiones for Philosophers soules onely and Inferos for all other soules and that about the first they did varie for Plato placed it in aethere Aerius in aëre the Stoikes circa lunam This is all Againe you proue out of Irenéeus that Purgatorie came of Carpocrates the Heretike Iren. li. 1. cap. 24. because he inuented a kinde of Purgatorie and proued it out of that place of S. Mathew Thou shalt not come forth vntil thou hast payd the vttermost farthing Mat. 5. euen as the Papistes do By this argument againe you will winne much honestie Epiph. li. 1. To. 2. Haer. 27. Tertul. de anima c. 17 Ireneus and after him Epiphanius as also Tertullian in your owne booke De anima do write that the Carpocratians helde that a man must wallow in aâ—l the filthe of sinne that is in this world before he can come to life euerlasting and therefore if he haue missed any sinne his soule is reuersed into a body and so againe and againe vntill he haue fulfilled all And for this purpose Iesus they say vsed this Parable of agreeing with the aduersarie in the way Matt. 5. c. Corpus enim dicunt esse carcerem c. For that prison they say is the body and that which he saith Thou shalt not go out thence vntill thou hast payed the last farthing they interprete as if the soule should be turned ouer by certayne Angels from body to body semper quoadvsque in omni omnino operatione quae in mundo est fiat Continually euen vntill it haue bene in all and euery acte of this world vt nihil amplius relinquatur saith Epiphanius ad nefarium quicquam faciendum so that nothing remayne that is abhominable but it is fulfilled Purgatorie fire Pur. 419.418 You goe forward and say that they tooke Purgatorie fire of the Origenistes and the name of Purgatorie of certayne Mediators who about S. Augustines time would accorde Origens error with the erroneous practise of the church For it was Origen that brought in the fire also and that he would buylde as the Papists do See here ca. xij of Christes damnation temporall according to Caluine and as he had better reason then the Papistes haue out of the 1. Cor. 3. This you say but you proue it not Origens error was that hell fire is not an euerlasting fire but onely a temporall fire which should in time purge not onely them that had ended their liues in most horrible sinnes but also the diuels
to our purpose at length he saith that the Catholikes must vnderstande that all seruice of any honor and sacrifice is giuen of the Catholike Church together both to the Father and to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost that is to the holy Trinitie For though he that offereth directeth the prayer to the person of the Father this is not any preiudice to the Sonne or to the holy Ghost He declareth it thus because The conclusion of the same prayer for so muche as it hath the name of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost sheweth that there is no difference in the Trinitie Looke in the Canon of the Masse and you shall more easily perceiue his meaning The prayer there beginneth thus being directed to the Father Te igitur clementissime pater c. Therefore ô most mercifull Father with humble supplication we beseech thee for Iesus Christ his sake thy sonne our Lorde c. And it is in the ende concluded thus Per ipsum cum ipso in ipso c. By him and with him and in him is to thee God the Father in the vnitie of the holy Ghost all honor and glory world without ende Amen Wherevpon also among his instructions to his friend Petrus Diaconus which you alleage vnder the name of S. Augustine here cap. 10. dem 24. Fulg. alia◠Aug. de fi◠de ad Pet. Diac. ca. 19 béeing too light in very diuerse companies in his pilgrimage to Hierusalem he sayth Holde most firmely and in no wise doubt but to the Sonne with the Father and the holy Ghost they did sacrifice those beastes in the time of the olde Testament And to him nowe in the newe Testament with the Father and the holy Ghost cum quibus illi est vna diuinitas he hauing one Godhead with them the H. Churche Catholike ouer all the worlde ceasseth not to offer in fayth and charitie the sacrifice of bread and wine c. Therefore you might as well haue charged Christ him selfe for directing so likewise the prayer that he taught vs Our father c. v. Of ministring the blessed Sacrament to Infantes But the other error is he saith a notable error and suche a practise as euen the Papistes them selues will confesse to be erroneous This it was S. Augustine and Pope Innocentius and al the Catholike Fathers of that time and all the Westerne Church yea all the Church excepting none but only the Pelagians ministred the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud to Infantes yea and thought it as necessarie for them as Baptisme to wit that they must receiue it or els they should be damned And will not D. Allen deny this will the Papistes them selues confesse it for so you say boldly but in your boldnesse you open withall your wilfull ignorance Fulke neuer read the Councel of Trent Who would thinke it if your selfe did not by this confesse it that you neuer read the Councell of Trent And what a presumption is this for you to preach yea and to write against the doctrine of the Catholike Church nothing regarding eyther what it is or how it is explicated defended defined by occasion of your heresies of the Catholike Bishops in their Generall Councell As if an Arrian doctor should neuer haue séene the Councel of Nice Well our countrey men may perceiue by this what blind guides they haue of you Reade the Councel of Trent I exhort both you and all other that can specially that halfe of it which is of doctrine and you wil either imbrace it as it is most worthy and as I pray God to giue you the grace or at leastwise you shall better know therby what it is that you must confute where now most of you do commonly fight only with your owne shadowes either of ignorance or which is worse of wilfulnes not knowing what in déede we teache There to our present purpose you shall find the said Councel after that it hath said Trid. Con. Se. 21. ca. 4. That Infantes lacking the vse of reason are by no necessitie bound to the sacramentall receiuing of the Eucharist to declare moreouer and say Neque ideo damnanda est antiquitas c. Neither for all that is antiquitie to be condemned if it practised that maner sometime in some places For as those most holy Fathers had pro illius temporis ratione answerable to that time sui facti probabilem causam a reasonable cause of their so doing so verily that they did it not for any necessitie to saluation without controuersie it must be beleeued This declaration of the Councell may satisfie not onely all Catholikes to whom it is the declaration of the Holy Ghost him selfe but also any other reasonable man to whom it can not possibly be lesse then the declaration of many most learned and most discrete men which knew well what they said and that they could not be therin disproued In so much that Kemnitius the Lutheran Protestant not so much as once toucheth the Councell for this though he write of purpose against the Councell Yet for more satisfaction of all men I say further to open the case particularly The heresie of the Pelagians was that Man or Fréewill of man is still notwithstanding the fall of Adam See A◠ad quo haer 88 lagian◠sufficient of his owne naturall strength without Christ or the grace of Christe to saluation And so consequently they saide children to be borne in innocencie and not in sinne The Catholikes to proue the contrarie of children alleaged the necessitie of their Baptisme confirming it by that Scripture Except one be regenerate of water non potest introire in Regnum Dei he can not enter into the kingdome of God Ioan. 3 The Pelagians séeing so plaine a text confessed they Originall sinne No hereticall pertinacie would not let them but a straunge shifte they had They graunted vpon this text that children vnbaptized should not in déede come into the kingdome of God for lacke of Baptisme but yet for their naturall innocencie without Christ they should haue life euerlasting in a certaine other place out of the kingdome of God The Catholikes replyed against that vaine shift and alleaged this text Ioan. 6 Except ye eate the fleshe of the Sonne of man and drinke his bloud non habebitis vitam in vobis you shall not haue life in you Who now would accuse those Fathers of error Yea who would not admire in them such readines to replye so properly to the purpose or let any man stand vp and say that the Pelagians are not by this confuted and their children excluded as before from the kingdome of God so now also from life and so left in death and therefore in sinne and therefore againe not innocent and all this for lacke of the Grace of Christ in Baptisme But now putting the case that a childe were baptized and then immediately died before he receiued sacramentally the Eucharist who reading innumerable places
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
wide way and the narrow way Mat. 7. If there be but two wayes in this life you say there are but two abiding places after this life In the wide way of breaking Gods commaundementes some go wider then some with infinite varietie yet al in the wide way and these after death go to damnation namely their soules and straight to damnation because they haue nothing to stay thē out of it so much as a minute of an houre In the narrow way of keping Gods cōmaundements some go narrower then some with infinite varietie likewise yet all in the narrow way and these after death go to life though not straight in body none of them neither in soule also many of them because they haue somewhat to stay them out of it for a time to wit temporall debt of veniall sinne also of mortal sinne forgiuen but the due penance not fully payed nor fully pardoned And so you sée that the two wayes of this life stande well ynough with Purgatorie Pur. 436.444 Againe you alleage that it is written of the Iudgement 2. Cor. 5. we shall all stand before the Iudgement seate of Christ to receiue ech of vs the own of his body according as he did either good or euill Not D. Allen but as he alleageth S. Augustine Aug. Ench. cap. 100. Dion Ec. Hier. ca. 7. as also S. Dionisius Areopagita answereth that the Churches praying for the dead is nothing repugnant herevnto because the dead in our Lord in his life deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him And to this answer you haue no reply to mainteine that Scripture against such prayer Onely you oppose a saying of S. Hierom very fondly as in the next chap. I wil shew Once againe you reason of the Iudgement If Purgatory be so necessary to satisfie Gods iustice by temporall paynes of sinners Pur. 85. according to the time c. and Purgatory shal cease at the day of Iudgement as you affirme out of Augustine how shall the same be satisfied in such as dye immediatly before the day of Iudgement so that they haue not had time inough ther to be sufficiently purged The like may be demaunded of all them which in a moment shal be changed from mortalitie to immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christ to Iudgement These questions M. Allen will trouble your head to answere and retayne your former principles Two doughtie questions Where did D. Allen set downe that principle that Purgatory is necessary to satisfie according to the time I finde where he saith Pur. 44. If any debt or recompence remayne to be discharged by the offender after his reconcilement it must needes rise by proportion weight continuance number and quantitie of the faultes cōmitted before Wherby it must of necessity be induced that bicause euery man can not haue time to repay all in his life that there is all or some parte answerable in the world to come Here we haue continuannce of the faultes and time of his life but time of Purgatory that you haue to tell vs where you had it The truth is that a shorte time in Purgatorie will so pay the sinner that it had bene better for him to spende much longer time in penance as in this life also a litle while in fire passeth I trow the payne of longer time in fasting c. Neither is it hard for god to punish one in the shortest time as gréeuously as an other in 1000. yeres Nor again repugnant to his mercy to remit suche punishment at the request of his glorious Saints which is S. Augustines answere to your obiection as he nowe doth to the like for the Churches prayers Aug. de Ci. li. 21. ca. 24.27 Lo what a hard thing it was to answere your Demaundes Whether Faith Hope and Gods Will may stande with Purgatory After these two assaylings of Purgatory by going straight to heauen and by the iudgement there remayneth your third last assault Pur. 421. wherein you say to vs We learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the faith and hope of Christians And how shew you that Pur. 382. If it be against the hope of Christians to mourne for the dead much more it is against the faith and hope of Christians to pray for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in miserie whom the word of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Io. 17. Apoc. 14. Neither those Scriptures nor any other by you alleaged as I haue shewed do testifie that all straight after death be so and therefore to suppose some of them to be in miserie and so to pray for them is not proued to be against the worde of God Neither to mourne for some yea and for all is saide to be against Hope I would haue you knowe that they shal rise againe saith the Apostle to the end that you mourne not for them 1. Thes 4. sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent in such sorte as others that haue not hope of their Resurrection So then there is one maner of mourning without hope and there is another maner of mourning with hope and such is our mourneing with prayer When Christ praied for his own Resurrection Psal 15. Act. 2. did that argue him to be voide of hope or rather to haue hope When also we all pray for the generall Resurrection Thy kingdome come and mourne and grone for the dilation do we against hope doe we not rather most manifestly declare oure hope thereby Moreouer you saye there To that which is required of the expresse worde of God forbidding prayers for the dead we answere that all places of the Scripture that forbid prayers without faith forbid prayers for the dead For faith is not euery mans vayne perswasion but an assurance out of the word of God Which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to pray for them This argument supposeth Cap. eodē part 1. that the word of God is onely Scripture which you can not proue as in the one place here aboue I haue declared Againe it supposeth that prayer for the dead is not assured by Scripture which besides the most expresse place of the Machabées and diuers others now shall another euident place control euen the same place that you alleage against vs. Thus you say Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods word that whatsoeuer we do pray for according to Gods wil we shal obteine 1. Io. 5. Therefore this one Hatchet shall cut a sunder al Prayers for the dead are not according to the wil of God and therefore they are not heard at all I denie the Minor you haue not nor can not proue it Yea I say further It is agaynst that which the Apostle there both intēdeth and expresseth to wit that we should pray for our brethren after they be dead if
them that receiue them You quote for this also 1. Cor. 10. but you haue no such thing there And touching your argument it holdeth aswell against the working of Christes passion For how should that worke of his geue grace if faith be requisite in vs Is not this a witty demaund trowe you I haue aboue alleaged manifest Scripture Cap. eodē pag. that Christ washeth vs both by his bloud and also by baptisme Those are the instrumentes which his mercy Tit. 3. vseth in this worke As for our faith all other actions they are not instrumentes they are not workers they are onely dispositions though necessarie dispositions as the drines of the wood is a disposition but it is the fire that worketh True it is and the Scripture saith it that by beléeuing and by other good actions we worke our owne saluation Philip. 2. as by way of meriting but it saith not that we worke the effect of any Sacrament as our regeneration when we are baptized our Corroboration whē we are confirmed our cibation when we are housled though our faith and other vertues be necessary therein that by our indisposition we do not put obicem Christes passion as it did both merite and worke all so to our déedes it giueth vertue to merite to the Sacraments it geueth vertue to worke Thus the Scripture teacheth and thus the Catholike Church beléeueth what soeuer you meane by your Church Pur. 241. when being told by D. Allen that the bloud of Christ maketh mens works meritorious you tell him agayne that the Church of Christ abhorreth that blasphemy By al which is reuealed your manyfold ignorance in that you say Pu. 35.155 The meane on Gods behalfe by which we are made partakers of the fruites of Christes passion and so grafted into his body is his holy spirit of promise which is the earnest and assurance of our inheritance who worketh in vs faith as the onely meane by which the righteousnes of Christ is applyed vnto vs. Ephe. 1. And as for the Sacramentes which you seeme to make the onely condites of Gods mercy we are taught in the holy Scriptures that they are the Seales of Gods promises giuen for the confirmation of our faith as was Circumcision to Abraham when he was iustified before through faith Rom. 4. Here are diuers poyntes of Caluinisme boldly affirmed two places of Scripture quoted for them but how falsely and fondly I shall easily declare S. Paule Rom. 4. declareth that it was a seale or cōfirmation on Gods part that also the vncircūcised shall be iustified by faith because with Abraham béeing so iustified Gen. 15. he entred afterwarde Gen. 17. such a bargayne As we may likewise say Mat. 16. that it was a Seale that we are blessed by cōfessing Thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God because S. Peter being for the same confession blessed had also the keyes of heauen geuen him in reward And as this would serue vs well if they which haue the keies after Peter should say that none are blessed but they so the other serued well when they which were Circumcised in flesh after Abraham did say that none were iustified but they Is this to say that all men are iustified before they come to the Sacramentes and that all Sacramentes be Seales of such a matter yea or so much as that all Iewes were iustified before they came to Circumcision and that Circumcision it selfe was to them a Seale of such a matter This is your euident Scripture this is your necessary concluding vpon it Goodly geare forsooth that for it we must leaue the Catholike Church and her guyde the holy Ghost and go to schole to Caluine Other poyntes of your ignorance are about the Holy spirite of promise You saye it is the meane to make vs partakers of the frutes of Christes passion Item the meane to graffe vs into his body Item that it worketh in vs faith By all which you declare that you know not what the Spirite of promise is and that you are no conferrer of Scriptures together how muche soeuer you bragge thereof Varietie of matter bréedeth prolixitie against my wil though of euery one I say neuer so litle which I beséech the gentle Reader to consider Otherwise in this matter I might lay together so many Scriptures as would fill the most gréedy that is Briefly Christ the day he ascēded as often afore both he The Spirite of promise Sac. of Confirmation and S. Iohn Baptist and the Prophetes namely Ioel said And I sende the promise of my Father vpon you Luc. 24. And he commaunded them not to returne home into Galilée but to exspect in Ierusalem his fathers promise which you haue hard quoth he of my mouth for Iohn baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the holy Ghost not many dayes hence to wit the tenth day off béeing Whitsonday They had faith afore and they were baptized afore and therefore graffed into his body afore though not fully baptized not fully graffed and yet they were to receiue this spirite this promise as being not the meane c. but the very greatest fruite of Christes passion the complement of baptisme the full ingraffing into his body which is his church yea the very inheritance it selfe For the inheritance is the Fathers promise Rom. 4. and so in Genesis and in all the Olde Testament And this spirite is as you heare the Fathers promise called therefore of S. Paule the earnest of our inheritance because it is the full first fruites thereof And therefore so farre as the Gospell goeth so farre alwayes goeth this spirite together with it to the Iewes Act. 2. to the Samaritanes Act. 8. to the Gentiles Act. 10. As to this day in the Catholike Church where the same Gospell continueth it is still giuen to all the baptized by imposition of the Bishoppes handes Marke it well it quite ouerthroweth your new inuented Gospell wherein after faith and after baptisme you giue not this spirite euen also your owne place to the Ephesians Cap. 1. condemneth you for there it is said to the Ephesians that first they heard the word of trueth the Gospell of their saluation then that they beleeued in Christ and then after beleeuing you were sealed with the holy spirite of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance If this be not playne ynough conferre Acts. 19. where the very storie of it is reported concerning twelue Ephesians who were baptized with Iohns Baptisme afore S. Paule came vnto them and then were taught by S. Paule that they must beleeue in Iesus Which when they heard they were baptized by some minister of S. Paules in the name of our Lord Iesus Et cum imposuisset c. And after that Paule him selfe laying his hands ouer them the holy spirite came vpon them By this litle the Reader may iudge who findeth out in déede the meaning of Scripture by plaine conference of other Scriptures who
is no water no nor made of water How much more then might Melchisedeches bread and wine be a figure of it although there be no bread nor wine in it coÌ„sidering that yet of bread and wine it is made yea and so reteineth still the same formes of bread and wine that he could say vnto vs Take eate it and drinke it O most swéete Iesus in déede thou hast the words of life euerlasting omnipotent sonne of God omnipotent Whosoeuer go to Caluine it is good for vs to sticke to thée who giuest vs such a meate and in so vsuall so naturall so swéete a maner Mariage of Votaries of Bishops Priests Deacons One Sacrament more and then an end of this long Chapter Mariage For mariage of Votaries as Friar Luther and Catharine his Nunne with such like because we say it is sinne and no Mariage Pur. 391. 20.22 he sayeth that we are the forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of 1. Tim. 4. You are they sayth he that attend to spirites of error and doctrines of diuels forbidding to marrie and absteining from meates and so forth as I recited a litle afore about Abstinence where I shewed that the Apostle there noteth the Eucratites Manichées and such other heretikes that taught fleshmeat and wine to come of the diuel and not of God And likwise that they condemned Marriage in it selfe for they sayd that our bodies also are of the diuel and therefore the propagation of them by Mariage to be his seruice And yet they durst such is the impudency of Heretiks charge the Catholiks for their Nunnes to be prohibentes nubere those forbidders of Mariage that S. Paule speaketh of Aug. cont Faustum Manich. li. 30. ca. 6.4 But S. Augustine answereth them Fulke at once saying Ille prohibet nubere qui hoc malum esse dicit He forbiddeth to marry that saith it is a naughtie thing as did those Heretikes non qui huic bono aliud melius anteponit and not he which to this good thing preferreth another better thing that is virginitie to Mariage as the Catholikes now do and also then did and that so peremptorily that they counted Iouinian an heretike as we do the Protestants for the contrarie A Iouiniano quodam Monacho ista haeresis orta est Aug Haer. 82. Retr li. 2. ca. 22. sayth S. Augustine This heresie did spring of one Iouinian being a Monke Virginitatem Sanctimonialium the virginitie of Nunnes and the continence of the mansex in holy persons choosing the single life he said to be no more meritorious then chast and faithfull Matrimonies In so much that certayne sacred Virgins of good yeres in the Citie of Rome where he taught this geare hearing him are said to haue married but no Priest could he deceiue For the holy Churche which is there did most faithfully most manly withstande this monster and quickly oppressed and extincted his heresie Yet commeth Fulke so long after raketh the ashes thinketh he hath found a sparkle Ar. 45. and saith If Iouinian taught that suche as could not conteine though they had vowed virginitie should neuerthelesse be maried this was the doctrine of S. Paule It is better to marrie then to burne Pur. 22.32 Am. ad Vir Laps ca. 5. Agayne where D. Allen sayth How can they for sinne and shame honour that with the name of holy mariage that S. Ambrose termeth Aduoutrie S. Augustine worse then Aduoutry and they with all the residue of Doctours horrible incest He replyeth Aug. de bono vid. c. 8. The holy Ghost hath taught vs to call mariage honorable in all men and the bed vndefiled whatsoeuer any man hath said to the contrarie and to allow mariage in them that cannot conteine although they haue vowed virginitie because It is better to mary then to burn Thus he alleageth Scriptures for heretikes against Gods Church as he confesseth it was and against the fathers thereof But howe doth he proue his interpretations of those Scriptures out of other Scriptures as he promised No I warrant you he is alwais like him selfe a clowde without water Let vs then following our fathers steppes confer a litle to finde the true sense First what is to burne To be troubled with the pricking of the flesh say the heretikes Not so saye we for S. Paule him selfe was troubled much with such pricking 2. Cor. 12. and yet he was not bidde to marry when he prayed so instantly agaynst it but it was sayde vnto him by Christ My grace is sufficient for thee for my strength is perfited in infirmitie that is where one acknowlegeth his infirmitie and séeketh to me for strength there do I most strongly worke A notable ensample thereof is S. Augustine reade his confessions how impossible he thought it afore to liue without a woman Aug. conf li. 6. ca. 15. li. 8. c. 12 and how perfitly he was afterwarde chaunged by grace As also millions of millions in the Catholike Church haue experience in them selues néeding therfore no other argument against you al but their own conscience to condemne your brutish assertion of such impossibilitie What is it then to burne or to be burned we néede not to séeke farre S. Paule himselfe telleth vs it is non continere not to conteyne Marke the wordes If they do not conteine them let them marry for of the two it is better to marry then not to conteine or to be burned And the same as plain in your other place Heb. 13. Mariage is honorable in all and the bed that is matrimoniall copulation vndefiled for fornicators and aduowters God will iudge Conferre all this and what saith he else but Let the married â—olke vse their owne bedde haue their owne wiues rather then defile another mans bed commit aduowtrie with another mans wife And let the vnmarried folke enter into mariage rather then not to conteine to burne to commit fornication Now to what vnmaried folke he saith this let vs also trye by conference as the Fathers haue done before vs. To them also which haue vowed virginitie say the Heretikes Not so saith S. Augustine Aug. de bono vid. ca. 8 De aedul con li. 1. ca. 15. 1. Tim. 5. but quae se non continent c. They which do not conteine them let them marry before they professe continencie before they vowe it to God for after they haue vowed vnles they performe it they be iustly damned And what other place doth he coÌ„ferre to proue this Alio quippe c. For in another place he saith of such Cum enim in delitijs egerint in Christo When the young widowes haue liued delicately in or against Christ vpon the Churches charges they will marry hauing therof damnation quoniam primam fidem irritam fecerunt Because they haue made frustrate their first faith or troth that is saith S. Austine from the purpose of continencie they haue deflected their will to mariage For frustrate
we are not contrarie to our selues in the same For in what words the Doctors speake therof the same do we iij I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly For these causes this Chapter might well perhaps be spared Neuerthelesse for more euident clearing of all I thinke better to examine euery particular of his allegatioÌ„s reseruing only a few to their more proper places in the next Chapter IdeÌ„ in my 33. Dem. Well then I offer as he sayth the Papistes do to stand to the Doctors iudgement in all things that are in question betwene vs and the Protestantes part 2. Howbeit as I said in the 6. Chapter it is not euery one Doctor but onely the vniforme consent of the Doctors to the which we ascribe infallibility to one or two or a few we ascribe no more but probabilitie and that also no longer then the matter is vndefined of the Church But yet I say that the Protestantes haue not agaynst vs for any one article at all not onely the Doctors consent and there I say standeth the poynt but neither so much as any one Doctor at all and therefore they are destitute euen of that probability also which some old Heretikes could pretend as the Donatistes in the matter of S. Cyprians error Let vs therefore heare what Doctors Fulke alleageth and for what matters And first whether they interprete any Scriptures against vs because the last Chapter was of Fulkes Scriptures The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. I find that he alleageth the Interpretors about thrée matters which are these Antichrist Onely faith and Purgatory j About Antichrist and Babylon Pur. 249. As touching Antichrist he saith The Seate of Antichrist was appoynted to be set vp in the Latin Church according to the Reuelation of S. Iohn the exposition of Ireneus who iudged that Lateinos was the number of the Beastes name spoken of Apo. 13. Sée I pray you what ragged wares are these First these two conclusions how well they follow Antichriâ—â— was appoynted to be set vp in the Latin Church Ergo the Pope of Rome is Antichrist Whereas it foloweth as well that Luther or Caluine is Antichrist for they are in the Latin Church in the same sense as you count the Pope to sit in the Latin Church that is where the Latin Church was afore but now is not The other conclusion Ireneus iudged that Lateinos should be the name of Antichrist as Iesus was and is the name of Christ Ergo he iudged that Antichrist was appoynted to be set vp in the Latine Churche These are his necessarie conclusions Besides that it is false that he saith Ireneus iudged Lateinos to be the name He saith Iren. lib. 5. Valde verisimile est It is very likely But yet of all names that we find Teitan sayth he magis fide dignum est is most credible Nos tamen non periclitabimur in eo nec asseuerantes pronuntiabimus But yet neither that name will I venture to affirme and pronounce that he shall haue it knowing that if his name should be manifestly preached in this time to wit afore his comming no doubt it had bene vttered by him who also saw the Apocalypse In so much that he there inueigheth agaynst such as Definierint Will define the name that they inuent to be the name of him that is to come Considering also that there is no small daunger therein For if they pardie thinke one name and he come with another name they shall be easily seduced of him quasi necdum adsit ille quem caueri conuenit As though he that they should beware of is not yet come In which respect you my Masters of this new Religion haue deserued a special reward of Antichrist as I noted also afore in the last Chapter for casting this straunge miste vpon Christes Vicar in the eyes of the blinde Par. 2. diu 2 that Antichrist when he commeth may walke more boldly To that purpose you alleage S. Hierome also and say Pur. 373. He was not such a slaue to the Church of Rome thatâ—whatsoeuer pleased the Bishoppes of that Sea he was ready to accept For then he would not haue ben so bold to cal Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praef. ad Paulin. in lib. Didym As though when he calleth Rome so or (a) Pu. 409 Aug. de Ci. dei li. 16. ca. 17. li. 18. ca. 22.27 when S. Augustine calleth it the Westerne Babylon they meane the (b) Ar. 10. Church of Rome No syr S. Augustine meaneth no more but the Empire which was to be there set vp speaking of the beginning of Rome and S. Hierom meaneth the Gentility or Paganisme of Rome which was there as yet in his time against the Church of Rome as it was muche more when S. Peter also called Rome Babylon for the same Paganes and yet saide of that Church for all that 1. Pet. 5. Ecclesia electa quae est in Babylone The elect Church which is in Babylon In which maner S. Hierome him selfe distinguisheth in another place Hiero. ad Marcel ep 16. tom 1. hauing called Rome Babylon there also and saith Est quidem ibi Sancta Ecclesia I graunt there is the holy Church there are the Triumphes of the Apostles and Martyrs there is the true confession of Christ Rom. 1. there is the faith commended of S. Paule Gentilitate calcata in sublime se quotidie erigens vocabulum Christianum And treading gentilitie vnder foote the name of Christians dayly erecting it selfe a loft So that within two ages after S. Hieromes time there were no Gentiles leaft in Rome but all conuerted into Christians and so Babylon fully and throughly become Hierusalem And you know I thinke if you reade his preface that you alleage that he there doth say that what time he was in Babylon Damasus was the Bishop Remember then what he writeth to the same Damasus by occasion of certaine suspected felowes in the East Hier. tom 2 ep ad Dam. which would néedes haue him to confesse three Hypostases not content with three persons and to communicate with them I folowing none first but Christ wheras the Arrians followed Arrius c. am ioyned in Communion to thy beatitude that is to saye by reason of Damasus his lawfull succeding to the Chaire of Peter Mat. 16. Exod. 12. Gen. 7. Vpon that Rocke I know the Church to be builded Whosoeuer eateth the Lambe without this house he is a prophane man If any man be not in Noes Arke he shall perish when the Deluge ouerfloweth desyring him in the end most instantly and saying That by your letters authoritie may be geuen me whether it be to refuse or to vse this worde Hypostases and withall to signifie with whom I shall coÌ„municate at Antioch because of the Schisme which was there at that time betwéene Paulinus and others By this you sée that in doubt both
of faith in time of Heresie and also of communion in time of Schisme S. Hierome was readie to be ruled by the B. of Rome and that all others by his iudgement and expositiō of Scripture must likewise do in so muche that he saith further to Damasus in the same Epistle Whosoeuer gathereth not with thee he scattereth hoc est that is to say Qui Christi non est Leo Epist 89. ad Epis vien proui Antichristi est Whoso is not Christes he is Antichristes because as S. Leo the great saith Petrum in consortium indiuiduae vnitatis assumpsit Christus Christ tooke Peter into the participation of vndiuided vnitie so that it should be all one to be Peters and to be Christes to be in vnitie with Peter and his Successor and to be in vnitie with Christ One more expositor yet you alleage saying Pur. 320. Which of your Prelates will folow Ambrose in his Commentary vpon the Apocalypse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome I will recite his wordes for you Amdro in Apoc. 17. This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in speciall quae tunc ecclesiam Dei persequebatur which then in S. Iohns time did persecute the Church of God In some places in generall the citie of the Diuell that is to say the whole bodie of the Reprobate Is not this now a perilous point with our Prelates so to touch the citie of Rome in S. Iohns time which did persecute the Church of Rome that is the Clargie and other Christians of Rome But of the Church of Rome the vndoubted Ambrose saith if you remember Ambro. de Sacramen lib. 3. ca. 1. In all thinges I couet to folow the Romane Church so protesting because he had occasion there to defende a certaine custome of his owne Church at Millaine which the Romane Church had not cuius typum in omnibus sequimur et formam whose paterne and samplar we follw in all thinges which notwithstanding he there declareth that other Churches may vpon good cause haue some ceremonie that the Church of Rome hath not Likewise he calleth Peter primum and fundamentum the first and the foundation in the very same place where say you he affirmeth Pur. 320. Ambro. de Inc. d. c. 4.5 that Peter is not the foūdation So faithfully you deale with your Reader He doth there excellently cōfute by Peters confession the Heresies that were against Christes Diuinitie Incarnation While other mens opinions were in rehearsing Peter though alwaies most forward held his peace But when he once heard Vos autē now what do your selues say of me statim loci non immemor sui Primatum egit Immediately being not vnmindefull of his place he exercised the Primacie The Primacie of confession pardie not of worldly honor the Primacie of faith non ordinis not of worldly degree And beneath Faith is the foundation of the Church Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est For it was not said of Peters flesh but of his faith Mat. 16. that the gates of death shal not preuaile against it his confession ouercommeth hel Al which we say in the same maner Heretikes and other ministers of the diuel may preuaile against the flesh of a Pope but his faith but his confession aswell in the articles that be now in controuersie as in those at that time will stand when they shall all be sunke downe into their due place The rest of the Popes Supremacie Ar. 36.37 Pur. 287.373.374 And here by the waye because the place is most conuenient and because it is sone done to answer vnto that you say Ireneus Polycrates Dionysius Alexandrinus Cyprianus the Councell of Africa and Socrates the Historiographer did preach or write against the Popes authoritie when it first began to aduance it selfe in Victor Cornelius Stephanus Anastasius Innocētius Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus I say first that all those Popes were of the true Church by your owne confession here cap. 2. and therefore you are contrarie to your selfe in making other Popes to be Antichrist for claiming suche authoritie as these did Secondly that all those writers did communicate with those Popes And therefore your Schismaticall separation hath no helpe of them Thirdly that no one of them wrot against the Popes authoritie as you pretend What did they then of Ireneus Polycrates and Dionysius touching S. Victor and of Cyprianus touching S. Stephanus I report the trueth here ca. 10. in the 28. demaund Cyp. ep 55 68. seu li. 1. Ep. 3.4 The same S. Cyprian doth exhort S. Cornelius to be as stout in not loosing certaine Africane heretikes vnder the degrée of Bishops as their owne Bishop had bene in binding them He also noteth in S. Stephanus some litle negligence but much more wilfull obreption in those two lapsed Bishops of Spaine Basilides and Martialis who had cōcealed from him the truth that in their supplication they should haue expressed which because they did not he sayth wel that their restitution by the Pope could not stand them in stéede against their former deposition by the Bishops of their owne prouince This which so plainely maketh for the Popes authoritie you are so blinde to bring against it As concerning the Councels of Africa Milenis the question betwene them those other fiue Popes was not about the matters of the vniuersal Church as for example matters of the faith quoties fidei ratio ventilatur for such matters they also them selues did referre to the Apostolike iudgement of those Popes antiquae scilicet regulae et traditionis formam secuti quam toto semper ab orbe mecum nostis esse seruatam Apud Aug Epi. 94.93 Innocē ad Con. Cart. Milenit Aug. e. 106. Con. Iul. li. 1. cap. 2. De pec ori con Pelag. cap. 8. following the forme of the old tradition and Canon which saith Pope Innocentius vnto them in those Epistles which S. Augustin being one of them doth often commend most highly as very answerable to the Sea Apostolike you as well as I do know to haue bene kept alwaies of all the world but about matters of perticuler persons as Appeales of Bishops And that question also was not about the Popes authoritie therin but what order the Nicene Councel which first was confirmed and always afterward most exactly obserued of S. Peters Sée as Municipall lawes are of good kings had taken therein And of the inferior Cleargie there was no such question but they should holde them selues quiet with the iudgement of theyr owne prouince if not of their owne Bishop without appealing further according to Con. Aphric cap. 92. which you alleage and according to Concil Sardicen Can. 17. which is alleaged Concil Carthag 6· cap. 6. 7. But that Bishops might so appeale the Popes auouched both by the old continual custome Con. Cart. 6. ca. 2. wherof no man can denie but there
within one hundred yeares after the Apostles doth witnesse that it was vsed before his time and that it came to his time by Tradition of the Apostles The same doth S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and many mo witnesse by your owne cōfession here cap. 3. pag. 2.3.4 Are not these authenticall writers nor credible authors nowe with you who here cap. 2. pag. 11. to 22. were with you the most approued writers and the Doctors of Gods Churche I thinke Gods Church may beléeue her Doctors better then you her rebels Howbeit also any reasonable man will thinke it enough for vs to bring it vp to Tertullians time and put you to proue that then it began if you will not graunt that it came from the Apostles Ar. 43. Of another particular you say Transubstantiation no small Article of your Religion was not decreed vntill the yeare of God of our Lorde you would saye 1215. But you will not I trow inferre therevpon that then it beganne For by the same reason an Arrian maye say that Homousion no small Article of our Religion beganne in the first Nicene Councell because it was not decréed vntill then Both wordes were then decréed but the things meant by them came euen from the Apostles Lanfrācus lib. contra Bereng and was decréed also the one of them 200. yeres afore that time to witte when the Heresie of Berengarius superesse in Altari post consecrationem substantiam panis vini the substance of the bread and wine to remayne after Consecration and not only agaynst the Reall presence was condemned in diuers Councels and he glad to recant it as by the writers of the same time we know The other Argument is directly agaynst you as this was directly for vs. The 2. Arg. Your first Authors can be named after the beginning of the Church rising with their new opinions Ergo their opinions were Heresies and they were Heretikes and you be Heretikes namely maynteining the same obstinatly Here agayne you denie both the consequence and the antecedent but how friuolously I haue at large reported cap. 7. pag. 80. where you put in your poore and colde exception of Onely Scripture hauing nothing els to stay agaynst the Auncient Fathers who both made that consequence and also noted your beginners but that they muste proue all by Scripture or els neither doth their argument holde neither was Aerius c. your first Author As also in another place you say to D. Allen therevpon Your rule is false For you leaue out the chiefest condition Pur. 413. which js that the opinion it selfe be contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles or els it is no Heresie though it maye be truely fathered vpon any man sooner or later Full wisely D. Allens rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man that was long after the trueth was firste preached by the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith and contentiously maynteined it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles And you can by no exception by no reason disproue it Now your rule is this Any opinion that maye be truely fathered vpon any man long after the Apostles if it be vpon a poynt of Faith c and contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles it is an Heresie that is to say contrarie c. Are not you then a proper rule giuer Any opinion that is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles is contrarie to the trueth first preached by the Apostles No doubt but D. Allen should do wisely to correct his rule which is not his but the Fathers rule by suche learned aduise 5. Contradicted Motiue 20. Article 11. Another rule of D. Allens is according to my next Demaūd (a) Pur. 412. Whosoeuer was wondred at and withstand and in his first arising and preaching by such as were in the vnitie of the Church as Aerius by S. Epiphanius S. Augustine c. and now Luther and Caluine by the Romanes c. he was according to the matter an Heretike or a Schismatike if he were obstinate I aske them therefore who so withstoode vs at any time or what heresie was not so withstood according to Gods promise to his Church Vpon thy walles Esa 62. O Hierusalem I haue set watchmen all day and al night euen for euer non tacebunt they shal not be scilent Whervpon S. Augustine saith confidently by the warrant also of the Parable Aug. ep 119 cap. 19. Mat. 13. Ecclesia dei inter multā paleam c. The Church of God beset with much chaffe and with much cockle although she tolerate many things not béeing able to redresse them yet such things as be agaynst faith or good life she neither alloweth nor is scilent nor practiseth And Fulke him selfe saith as much The Church of Christ in suche places as she is ioyne herevnto ca. 2. Ar. 92. where he confesseth the knowen Church of the first 600. yeres suffereth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Now against this and so against him selfe to what hath he to say One while he bringeth causes why and how our Religion entred into the true Church with scilence 1 For because it came not in sodenly Ar. 43.39.35 Pur. 256. but entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors where he addeth especially being earnestly occupied against great Heresies and open aduersaries that sought to beate downe the chiefe foundations of Christian faith as the Valentinians Marcionistes Manichees Arrians Pur. 419. Sabellians and such like monsters 2 Another meane or cause was this that in those auncient times if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shew of pietie or charitie they would draw it into vse with such correction as they thought was sufficient And this was a great corruption Where he addeth So they tooke of them c. eight or nyne things of ours he there nameth his words are here cap. 3. pag. 9. Amongst the which prayer for the dead is one 3. the causes and maner of the entring wherof he rendreth in like sort more at large cap. eodem pag. 14. to 20. as because it had a pretence of Charitie Ar. 39. Pur. 386.78 it deceiued simple men the sooner And the ignorant peoples error first winked at because it had a shew of pietie was allowed at length of Augustine and others who folowed the common errors of their time To omit that D. Allen foresaw and preuented these goodly causes Pur. 384. c. I say it is a fond part to tel why and how a thing was done which thing was neuer done For so the Scripture before alleaged promiseth and S. Augustine affirmeth that there should not be nor was any such silence in the true Pastors In so much that you can not name any confessed
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
vndique Ire li. 3. ca. 3 conseruata est ea quae est ab Apostolis traditio In which Church saith S. Irenée that is by repayring to it the faithfull that be all about haue alwayes preserued theÌ„ selues in the tradition that coÌ„meth from the Apostles And where you say for another instance Ar. 2.3 Pur. 337. It is manifest by al Histories that the Nations of the Alanes Gothes Vandales were first conuerted by the Arrians in so saying you declare that you neuer read the Ecclesiasticall Histories presuming notwithstanding to write against these Articles which are in maner nothing els but certayne obseruations therof Reade Socrates li. 2. ca. 32. and not onely li. 4. ca. 27. and Sozomenus li. 6. ca. 37. but specially Theodoret li. 4. ca. 32. who as a Catholike Bishop of purpose to take from the Arrians that vayne bragge of theirs sheweth that the Gothes were first Catholikes and not as you say first conuerted by the Arrians but onely by false informations and to much trusting of their Bishop Vlphilas béeing another Balaam ledde out of the way You talke also of the Nations that were coÌ„uerted by the Donatists Nouatians Pur. 337. But we shall know your Histories authors hereafter Againe you say And it is also manifest by Histories Ar. 3. that the Grecians whoÌ„ the Papists count no part of their church but Schismatikes conuerted the Moscouites first of all Did the Grecians conuert them since their Schisme O great Historian The truth is there was great emulation then in the Grecians against the Latins but not schisme nor heresie as yet nor long after and therefore of our Church they were then Howbeit it is not the true faith nor our religion as you say truely which the Moscouites haue but such as they them selues did list to receiue with many qualifications and modifications of their owne such was the fruite of the Grecians emulation and such is the necessitie that S. Peter cast the nette But if Histories fayle you yet one demonstration ex per se notis you haue to proue that not we but you conuerted all true Christian Nations Ar. 2. And what is that If the Papist can proue that we hold not the same faith and trueth vnto which the Apostles conuerted the Nations we refuse to be called the Church or Congregation of Christ The Papist proueth to omitte a 1000. others of his proufes that you be Heretikes and therefore hold not the same faith c. by the testimonie of that which your selfe confesse to be the true Church of Christ here cap. 2. and cap. 3. Againe We are members witnesse your Separation here Dem. 3. Ar. 2.3 of that Church which conuerted all Landes in the earth that are conuerted to the true Religion of Christ and we affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in steed of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are readie to proue by the word of God Witnesse here cap. 8. Where all your absurd Deprauations of Gods word are answered and not that onely but also shewed by the expresse word of God among other thinges that the Sacrament of Confirmation went euery whither together with the Apostles Gospell as the chiefest point of Christianitie Ar. 3. pag. 145. But no maruaile of your audacitie to say we are readie to proue it considering that you are bold to conclude of this saying thus I haue shewed that our church holding the true Doctrine of the Apostles is that which conuerted all Nations to true Religion Then belike all those Nations were and are of your Religion and you will be content to be tryed by them as by Afrike for example whose Religion we know by Tertullian S. Cyprian S. Optatus S. Augustine c. Or if you haue better Monumentes of any other Nations Religion name it and let vs try it betwene vs. But whosoeuer séeth here cap. 3. how you are faine to charge the true Church the Primatiue Church with erring may easily coniecture what you dare doe Motiue 17. 11. Britannie Well we be English men and therefore in a seuerall Demaund I name our Countrie England or Britannie vnto you Specially because the Prophetes as you know speake much of the conuersion of Ilands expresly and namely of such Ilands as were farthest of As also because there are extaÌ„t such monumeÌ„ts of our Ilands conuersion and religion in Tertullian Origen S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Gregory the Pope with many other like and specially in the History of our owne countreyman S Bede But here Fulke telleth such English men that list not to be deceiued Pur. 346. but to see into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles that they were better to consider the word of God the Historie of the Acts of the Apostles and biddeth vs of so many Nations there recorded to name one Pur. 166.332 vnto which Purgatory or praying and sacrificing for the dead was taught You are profoundly seene in the Scriptures I perceiue by this Why was the Actes of the Apostles written to shew into what faith all Nations were conuerted that were turned by the Apostles Nay is there so much as any mention of the twelue Apostles preaching to any nation of the Gentiles No syr that booke was written to shew onely the beginning of the Church according to the Prophets to wit at Hierusalem and among the Iewes and the taking of it froÌ„ them for their deserts and geuing of it to the Gentils euen froÌ„ Hierusalem the head of the Iewes to Rome the head of the Gentiles And there S. Luke endeth it not caring to tel so much as the fulfilling of that which our Lord had foretold Act. 27. to S. Paule in whose person this traÌ„slation was wrought and not in S. Peters nor any others of the Twelue for causes to long to be here rendred Caesari te oportet assistere Thou must stand before the Emperour Because his purpose was no more but to shew the new Hierusalem of the Christians and so to leaue them to it to know what are the particulars that the Apostles taught And so withall you haue one of those Nations named in the Actes and that no common one â—o wit the Romanes which receiued of the Apostles not only the Article that you require but also all the rest which at this time it hath neither you béeing able by Scripture or otherwise to proue the contrarie so muche as in any one and we prouing it both a particulars and in the totall summe partly by Scriptures partly by other vnauoydable demonstrations Well for all this trigiuersation by which you sée what you haue wonne you will yet be content to be tryed by our Britannie Ar. 49. For you confesse that the Church of the Brytans or Welchmen before Augustine came in to conuert the Englishmen Anno 597. continued in the faith of Christ euen from the Apostles time Pur. 332. so that
for sixe hundred yeres almost this land was neuer voyde of Christians Go to then and prescribe vs the forme of this tryall Proue you say that Paule or Simon or Taddeus or Ioseph or whosoeuer first preached the Gospell in this Iland in the reigne of Tyberius the Emperour as Gildas testifieth taught prayers or sacrifices for the dead proue it I say and the daye is yours for euer In this briefe answere one probation may suffice If you require vs to proue it out of the Scripture considering that the Scripture doth not tell of our Landes conuersion you declare your selfe to be but a pratler If other authors will content you what greater ones can you aske then those so many whom here cap. 3. pag. 20. you confesse to witnesse that the Apostles and namely S. Paule cap. 7. pag. 86. lefte that Tradition Another probation thereof you feare if the Brytaines receiued the faith from Rome of Pope Eleutherius which is most certayne as the Englishmen did afterwards of Pope Gregorie And therefore you talke so willingly of the Apostles preaching there afore not considering how that maketh more for vs in that the Brytaines thereby could iudge the better of the matter The Britons begun by the Apostles and Romanes accōplished by Eleutherius and so would not haue receiued from Eleutherius to whom they sent for their accomplishing the contrarie of that which the Apostles so litle before had planted among them Which probation procéedeth aswell although not the Apostles which yet I beléeue but the Christian Romanes to whom they were then subiect began the matter which agayne is most certayne But you are so afrayde of Christ our great kings Citie that is of Rome Pur. 371. the Christian Hierusalem that yet againe you say It were easie to proue by that controuersie which the Britaynes and the Scottes had against the Saxons about the celebration of Easter that our Countrey first receiued their conuersion from the East Church whose ceremonie they did then defende euen as the East Church did long before against Victor Bishop of Rome By which it appereth that this land did neuer receiue the doctrine and ceremonies of the Latine Church before the time of the Saxons But this your reason hath no other ground but onely your owne ignorance in the Historie as I haue noted ca. 2. pa. 4. Where also you haue an euident demonstration that the faith of the Britons first and of the Saxons after was all one because the greatest paynt wherein their Bishops differed from S. Augustine was that same about Easter Sonday in so muche that S. Augustine was very earnest with them to ioyne with him and preach to the Saxons Which according to your imagination had bene as wisely done of him as if we now should moue you considering that you kéepe Easter when we do to preache and teach as you do All this considered no man may maruell to sée you in suche a pecke of troubles about the Religion of the Saxons one while allowing it as it had bene yours another while condemning it Infra ca. 11. cōtrad 50. because it was ours Your allowance you vtter in the very same wordes wherewith here cap. 5. you allow of them that you confesse to haue bene the true Church of which all ought to be that would be saued Thus you say Pur. 335. All that was then taught the Saxons for Christianitie was not false For the Bishoppes and Christian teachers of the Brytish nation whose ayde they that came from Rome required and at last obteined to the conuerting of the Saxons reteined the foundation of faith Iesus Christ and the only sacrifice of his death Againe Pur. 337. Many things and the principal were true that were taught vnto the Saxons Now for vs you confesse and say Pur. 346. You thinke it is the surest way to looke to that faith in all points which this Land first receiued If men should folow your coūsel in some things they should folow your faith which you now teach Namely Pur. 335 336. they receiued vsed vnprofitable prayers for the dead many other superstitious opiniōs Neither doth it folow that all that taught or beleeued those errors so long as they buylded vpon Christ the onely foundation perished If the Saxons receiued prayer for the dead why do you say of the Britaynes whom erewhile you confessed to haue taught them that although Gildas accuse the Priests of his time for seldome Sacrificing Pur. 332. and although the error of praying for the dead were receiued in other places yet whether this Countrie were free from it I am not able to say nor you to proue that it was infected with it Because of these poynts which you confesse and many others that you can not denie Ar. 49. therefore now the English Nation receiued their Religion first from Rome at such time as religion there was very corrupt The Saxons were conuerted by superstitious Romanists Pur. 337.348 Yea as some thinke they were not so much conuerted from Gentilitie to Christ as peruerted from pure Christianity to superstition Sée I pray you they were not onely Christians before but so pure as no other Christian Nation in the world if you remember what he said of all others here cap. 3. And yet againe on the other side were their corruption by those Romanes neuer so great Pur. 335.336.346 Ar. 49. yet such was the faith that was receiued euen of the Saxons that you can shew vs if we will playne and pithy confutations at that time of many poyntes of Popish doctrine and namely that which we count the chiefe the Real presence and transubstantiation yea and direct inuectiues against the Pope and all Popish doctrine Mary in dede that were worth the sight Do you graunt that in some things and namely prayer for the dead they receiued the faith which we now teach yet haue you cards of thē to shew not only against many points of Popish doctrine but against all popish doctrine And what be your cardes Diuers monumentes of antiquitie as Prayers Psalmes Homilies with diuers other smal Treatises and pamphlets in the old English or Saxons tongue in old English written hande and namely that printed Saxon Homily which was appoynted to be read at Easter Belike they were of S. Bedes making for so we reade in his life that he compiled many godly things in the vulgar tongue and not only in Latine and his Homilies to this day are read in the Churches or rather of some his Elders such as he in his Historie maketh mention of because it was one hundred yeres after our first conuersion before Bede him selfe did florish Is this possible thinke you No no. Non sunt rectè diuisa temporibus tibi Daue haec In S. Bedes story and in all his works and al other writers of his time and before his time you find nothing against the Pope nor against any one poynt of
maketh mention also of a Eus li. 7. ca. 19. the Hymnes of Nepos Theodoretus and Zosomenus of e Theo. lib. 4. ca. 24. Zoso l. 3. ca. 15. the Hymnes of S. Esrem in the feastes of Martyrs and S. Augustine very often of f Aug. retr li. 1. ca. 21. Confes l. 9. ca. 6.7.12 the Hymnes of S. Ambrose The Councell of Laod. doth no more but forbid priuatos vulgares Psalmos priuate and vulgar Psalmes made by simple men to be said in the Church as the g Con. Mil. ca. 12. Con. Cart. 3. ca. 23. Mileuitane Councell also commaundeth that no other prayers or collectes or Masses or prefaces or commendations or handlayings be said in the Church nisi quae a prudentioribus tractatae But such as haue bene examined by some more skilfull or allowed in the Synode least it chaunce something to be made against the faith or by ignoraunce or by negligence Likewise touching lessons the Councel of Laod doth no more but forbyd the Apocryphall Scriptures libros non Canonicos to be read sed solos Canonicos veteris noui Testimenti but the onely Canonicall bookes of the olde and new Testament Con. Cart. 3. ca. 47. Ar. 20. as also the .3 Councell of Carthage decreeth that beside the Canonicall Scriptures nothing be read in the Church vnder name of the diuine Scriptures for which cause both Councelles doth there declare which bookes be Canonicall and the Carthage Councell addeth also that the Martyrs Passions may be read when their anniuersarie dayes be celebrated These examples declare manifestly that you detest in our seruice euen those things which were in the seruice of the Primitiue Churche and all without cause and that it is an horrible blasphemie where you say If you demaund whence your Ceremonies VVhy then do you kepe them novv festiuall dayes feastes and varieties of Seruice did proceede I aunswere plainly out of the bottomlesse pit of Hell For touching dayes also which may be the last example of Fasting and Feasting you confesse cap. 3. pag. 13. and cap. 6. pag. 43. that Aerius and Iouinianus were condemned in the Primitiue Church for Heretikes because they denyed the dayes and merites of Fasting and the Scriptures that you obiect against the Fathers vs for it I haue aunswered cap. 8. pag. 140. to .143 Ar. 20. Likewise you confesse that Festiuall dayes were vsed in the Primitiue Church adding to shewe of what Church you be that they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion wel But they were not kept in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes for that is great Idolatrie as also to build Churches in the honor of Saintes but only for the memory of the martyres and other Saintes that their good life might be followed Whether for that onely let S. Augustine be witnesse where he saith The Christian people doth celebrate together the martyres memories with religious solemnitie Aug. cōtra Faust l. 20. ca. 21. Et ad exitandam imitationē et vt meritis eorum consocietur atque orationibus adiuuetur Both to stirre vp imitatiō and to be ioyned in felowship to their merites and holpen with their prayers Was not this to kéepe their memories in their honor also As againe it is manifest not onely by certayne places alleaged before but also in the very words that you alleage de ver Relig. cap. 55. Ar. 20.54 The saints must be honored for imitation not adored for religion Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honour the blessed Angels with charitie not with seruice Doth he not here expresly auouch their honoring As for your note that Seruitus is the same that Dulia is contrary to the Papists which will worship them with seruice called Dulia or Seruitus it is but your vnacquayntance in S. Augustines writings Reade De Ciuit. Dei li. 10. ca. 1. Seruitus Latria Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque sanctarum Scripturarum positum est interpretati sunt Seruitutē For whersoeuer in the holy Scriptures in Gréeke is put Latria our Latines haue translated it Seruitus And so you may sée that he vseth Seruitus for Latria not for Dulia as also he vseth Religio for thresceia béeing synonymum to Latreia But saith he speaking of cultus Deitati debitus the worship due to the Godhead Propter quem vno verbo significandū quoniam satis mihi idoneum non occurrit Latinum Greco c. Because to signifie it in one word I finde no Latin word apt ynough neither Religio nor Seruitus although in that booke De vera Relig. he so vsed them being yet but a Lay man I do where it is necessarie vtter my mind by the Greeke word Latria Lo I haue alleaged here no more but as an answere And yet I haue made it manifest that notwithstanding all his obiections yea also by his owne confession the Seruice of the Primitiue Church was ours and not the Protestants defending it also easily against his vaine cauils Ar. 38.40.49 Neither shal he euer be able to shew that any Church Latin or Gréeke Brytish or other had authenticall seruice but it was ours as D. Allen told him before Now as for the Language in which the Seruice is Seruice in Latine that maketh no difference in the Seruice it selfe For praying for the dead is all one whether it be in Latine or in English Yet because he holdeth that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues let vs sée what be his groundes thereof Ar. 49.40 We can easily shew it out of the Scripture so he saith but no word that he alleageth any where But bylike he meaneth the place to the Corinthians by which his fellowes do commonly reiect the Latin Seruice as if it were that miraculous gifte which the Apostle there calleth 1. Cor. 14. Loqui linguis to speake with tongues Which also he doth not reiect but moderate for the varietie of certayne much like to * Pur. 7. some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues Now if any learned man séeing it is not the seruice that S. Paule there speaketh of thinke yet that one may argue thence at the least a simili Let him consider first that so the maner of the simple Catholikes who praye to them selues priuately in the Latine tongue which they vnderstande not is not condemned but iustified For He that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men but yet to God And he that speaketh in a tongue doth also edifie him selfe in spirite that is in affect For if I pray in a tongue my spirite or affection prayeth though my vnderstanding be without fruite And therefore If thou blesse or giue thankes in spirite thou doest it well But if there be no Interpreter let him be silent in the Churche and speake to him selfe and to God The difference is onely this that those Corinthians receiued immediately of the holy Ghost such prayers
you gather that the body of Christ which he saith was the Sacrifice that was offered was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall body because he saith the Martyrs and it were all one He saith not so not that they are all one or the same but that they are of the mysticall body of Christ which whole mystical body is offered there to God in the offering of his naturall body for there are speciall memories of euery sort of the Saintes in heauen of the Soules in Purgatory of the Catholiks in earth The bread wine also in which his said naturall body and bloud are consecrated are such things a Au tract 26. in Ioan. Quae in vnum rediguntur ex multis as of many cornes and grapes are brought into one loafe and cup Water also b Cyp. epi. 63. to signifie vs againe béeing mingled with the wine Herevpon he saith in the same c Aug. ciu li. 10. c. 6.20 worke that in the Sacrament of the Altar it is shewed to the Church that in the oblation which she doth offer her selfe is offered And that aswell she by him as he by her is vsually offered And therefore it can not be thought that this naturall body there offered is offered to the Martyrs or to the Church as the Paganes and Manichées did charge the Christian Catholikes vpon their offering of that naturall body ouer the shrines of Martyrs You might therefore haue gathered as well that the Body which he offered vpon the Crosse was not his naturall body but his mysticall body the Church because in offering it there for his Church he offered his Church to God with it Reade De Ciu. li. 10. ca. 6. and there you shall sée that he sheweth how the workes of mercie are a sacrifice item a person consecrated to God Item our body Item our soule Item tota ipsa redempta Ciuitas hoc est congregatio societasque sanctorum the whole redeemed Citie it selfe that is the congregation and societie of the holy which he calleth vniuersale sacrificium An vniuersall Sacrifice And that after all these metaphorical Sacrifices he distinguisheth from them all not onely the Sacrifice of the Crosse but also the Sacrifice of the Altar which you confounde with that vniuersall Sacrifice not considering that he so often calleth it the one and the singuler Sacrifice of the Christians Besides these Pur. 361.293 you haue two places out of Tertullian and Ireneus The former sheweth you say what was the chiefest Sacrifice that they did offer to wit Prayer The other likewise sheweth that by the name of the Sacrifice of the Church he meaneth not the Sacrifice of the Masse which they call propitiatorie for the sinnes of the quicke and the dead but the Sacrifice of thankesgeuing and prayers Tertul. in Apol. Tertullian telleth there the Gentiles in defence of the Christians first what thinges they prayed for in the Canon of the Masse to wit for their Romane Empire among other thinges the place goeth here before cap. 9. pag. 197. Then why not to their Goddes Haec ab alio orare nō possum quā c. These thinges I cannot praye for of any other but of whom I knowe that I shall obteyne them quoniam et ipse est qui solus praestat c. For both he it is who onely doth geue them and I am he to whom is due to obtayne being his seruant which worship him onely Then also why not with their blood Sacrifices of fat calues c. qui ei offero opimam et maiorem hostiam quam ipse mandauit orationem de carne pudica de anima innocente de spiritu sancto profatam which offer to him a fat and greater host that which he himselfe commaunded to wit prayer pronounced out of a chast body out of an innocent soule out of an holy spirite Where in the name of that Prayer he comprehendeth all that is saide and done in the Masse of the faithfull which to this day also the Priest therefore beginneth saying vnto vs after the Gospell Dominus vobiscum Oremus Let vs pray and immediatly goeth to the bread and wine Hier. epist ad Euagriū c. Because this pure Sacrifice is made celebrated with Prayer ad Presbyterorum preces Christi corpus sanguisue conficitur Christes body and bloud is made by the Priestes prayers saith S. Hierome and because euen the old house of those Leuiticall bloud Sacrifices also was called Mat. 21. Isa 56. Domus orationis The house of prayer And as Tertullian setteth out agaynst the impure Paganes the puritie of the Church in her Sacrifice so doth S. Irenée set out the same against the Iewes and Heretikes Iren. li. 4. cap. 34. Mala. 1. to shewe that the pure Sacrifice in Malachie is offered by her alone quoniam cum simplicitate Ecclesia offert Because the Church offreth with simplicitie of faith hope and charitie whereas the Iewes hands are now full of bloud and all the Synagogues of those olde Heretikes helde the bread and wine to be of an yll creation For this cause he telleth them that the conscience of him that doth offer beeing pure doth sanctifie the Sacrifice and causeth God to accept it as comming from a friend And that the Sacrifices do not sanctifie a man Non enim indiget Sacrificio Deus for God doth not neede a Sacrifice so as néede should make him glad of it as it maketh a begger glad whether the giuer be a friend or a foe And do not we say the same Can any Heretike pleade as vpon our verdite that he pleaseth God in offering to him bread or wine yea or also the body it selfe and bloud of Christ so as all Priestes doe in their Caluinicall Communion no lesse then we doe in the Masse And yet the Sacrifice of it selfe is suche as pleaseth God and sanctifieth the offerer but for his owne indisposition Like as Baptisme of it selfe would cleanse the conscience Heb. 9.10 though oftentimes it doth not for fault in the receiuers of it For it is not the worthines of men but the worthines of Christ whereof the owne and proper vertue of his Sacramentes and of his Sacrifice both of the Altar and of the Crosse dependeth Motiue 35. 25. Monkes My 25. Demaund noteth that these Heretikes haue cutte off from the Church her best and perfectest member to wit Monkes and Nunnes who were so common in the Primitiue Churche that to bring all to the fashion of the Primitiue Church as they pretende they shoulde haue made all to be Monkes rather then none to be Monkes And Fulke doth nothing here but helpe our side in that he * Ar. 29.85 Pur. 87.297.250 Hic cap. 9. often reiecteth Monkes Heremites Anachorites Canons Fryers Nunnes graunting them no place in the Churche of Christe partely by an argument ab authoritate Ephes 4. negatiuè whiche I aunswered here in the 24. Demaunde treating of Bishoppes Priestes and
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their
Vnitie As though Christ or S. Augustine or we did speake of any other then Vnitie of Christian People and in Christian faith And if any Heresie among the Christians haue had their vnitie also that doth no more but declare that the same Heresie whatsoeuer it were might for this at the least claime the true Church better then the Protestantes For another shifte he sayeth Ar. 107. that the Church may be called the howse of peace because there is in it peace and agreement in the chiefest Articles of the Faith By which reason he might say that very many of the old Heresies were within the Howse of Peace because they agréed with the Church in the chéefest Articles But we say that any one Article be it of the chéefest or of the meanest may breake the peace as quartadecimani did disagrée onely in the day of Easter and many other like in S. Augustines Catalogue of Heresies to Quodvultdeus And therefore it helpeth his side nothing that he saith to excuse their diuision Ar. 63.61.62.10.58.96.103 that the Lutherans Zuinglians do differ but in one matter and that not the greatest to wit concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Be it so that among them are no more but these two Sectes and betwéene these no more difference which yet is most false as not onely large tables of their names set out by Catholikes but also innumerable Bookes about innumerable matters set out be them selues against one another and euen their own Puritanes now at home do notoriously declare One matter I say is inough yea also if it be but a ceremonie though you say of some of yours They differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Yes Syr when they holde their owne Ceremonies to be necessarie or condemne the Churches Ceremonies as vnlawful as those Quartadecimani did they are Heretikes and therefore diuided from the faith Howbeit also diuision is made sometimes without any disagréemēt so much as in a ceremonie as whē it is a méere Schisme not mixt with any Heresie at all Such were the Schismes that were towards among the Corinthians 1. Cor. 3.4 swelling one against another onely vpon their Baptizars and Teachers And therefore what is the matter that you differ in forceth not Onely if you diuide your selues and will not come to one anothers Churches where is your vnitie As for difference of opinions betwene our Canonists and Diuines or also betwene our Schole Diuines among them selues it is as I said in the 8. Dem. pag. 283. all without diuision all in vnitie Aug. cōtra Iul. li. 1. c. 2. De bap cō Donat. li. 1. ca. 18. all no otherwise then as S. Augustine saith Sometime also the most learned and best defenders regulae Catholicae of the Catholike rule do without breaking the frame of fayth not accorde and diuers be of diuers iudgementes without anye breake of peace vntill a generall Councell allowe some one parte for cleare and pure Suche was the difference of S. Cyprian his fellowes from the other Catholikes about Baptisme here in the 28. Dem. And suche was the difference betwéene some about the Popes or Councels superioritie before the Florentine Councell which by your owne confession here cap. 6. pag. 70. resolued the matter But your differences we say are with diuision with pertinacie without end a generall Councell can not finish them yea to nourish them for euer your very doctrine is that in Church or Generall Councell is no authoritie of such importance 36 Owners and keepers of the Scriptures Moti 8.30 Articl 2.3 My next Demaund to the Protestantes is S. Augustines Demaund to the Manichies which D. Allen doth prosequute in two Articles And it is grounded vpon the foresaide authoritie of the Church Aug. cōtra Ep. Fund ca. 5. If thou shouldest meete with one saith S. Augustine to a Manichee who doth not yet beleeue the bookes of the Gospell what wouldest thou doo to him saying vnto thee Non credo I do not beleeue them As of his owne selfe he there sayth Ego vero Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas I verily shoulde not beleeue the Gospell but that the Catholike Churches authoritie did make me And then he gathereth therevppon and asketh Quibus ergo obtemperaui dicentibus crede Euangelio cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi Noli credere Manichaeo Those therefore to whom I obeyed saying Beleeue the Gospell Why should I not obey the same men saying vnto me Do not beleeue Manicheus do not beléeue Luther Nowe to this what shifte hath Fulke He can not denie but that our Demaunde is vpon that Churth whiche is called Catholike nowe according to my sixte Demaunde pag. 227. as S. Augustines Demaunde was vpon that Church whiche was called Catholike then and as muche maligned of those Manichees as nowe of these Protestantes Neither can hee shewe but that as it hath still the same name so it is still the same Churche as I haue defended agaynst all his vayne Cauilles eyther out of the Scriptures cap. 8. pag. 124. or out of the Doctors cap. 9. pag. 155. And therefore béeing still all one Churche you shall sée if you marke that he sayth in his aunswere nothing of the one but it is common to the other and that it is all one for vs to frame our Demaund of the Catholike Church then Ar. 10. and of the Catholike Church now For thus he sayth The Primitiue Churches testimonie of the worde of God we allowe and beleeue But I deny that the Primitiue Church dyd affirme Luther to be an Heretike or the doctrine which he taught which we holde to be Heresie Here you denie it but in other places you confesse it where you graunt that they affirmed Aerius to bee an Heretike for denying prayer for the dead and were fayne therevpon to take exception against the same Primitiue Church by your colde shift of Only Scripture cap. 7. pag. 79. Tell vs then we say why we should obey the same Primitiue Church commaunding vs to beleue the Gospell and not obey it commaunding vs not to beléeue Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius c. cap. 3. pag. 9. to 14. and consequently not to beleue Luther nor to care for all your carping in these two Artiticles of her Images and Inuocation of Saintes of her Sacrifice of her estimation of Customes Traditions writings of Doctors Decrees of Popes and Councels of her auncient Latine Translation of her corrupting either of the text of the Testament or of the true Religion conteined therein of her not translating of the Scriptures into all vulgar tongues of her workes of supererogation Abbeys Priories and Chauntries For touching all these things either it is euident in it selfe or in sundry places eyther you haue confessed or I haue proued or at least I haue defended that they were the Primitiue Churches also no lesse
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
heresies not preached against winked at because it had a shew of pietie and charitie and at length allowed of Augustine and others who followed the common errors of their time Specially when a Generall defection and departing from the faith was foreshewed what maruell were it if none coulde preach against it as it first entred Ar. 92.36.37 Contra The Churche of Christ in such places as she is suffreth no man damnably abusing her Religion without open reprehension Ar. 11. 10 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions contrarie to the word of God as her duetie was and fought against them and obteined the victorie and triumphed ouer them Pur. 419. Ar. 35.36 Contra In those auncient times they of the true Catholike Church did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the worde of God but if Heretikes had any thing that seemed to haue a shewe of pietie or charitie they would drawe it into vse So they tooke into the Church of Christ many abuses and corruptions vntill at the length An. 607. the religion of the Papistes preuayled And c since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwayes increased in error vntill the yere 1414. 11 That blasphemous heresie of Purgatorie To the Reader Pu. 26.166.184.177.269.362.363.419.186 which is moste blasphemous against Christ against the bloud of Christ against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes and against Gods vnspeakable mercies and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all thē that beleue it nothing conuenient for the disciples members of Christ No suffrages were made for the dead by the Apostles or their lawfull successors Contra here cap. 3. he confesseth that the Fathers held it and yet notwithstanding that they were members of the true Church ca. 2. and held the foundation Iesus Christ cap. 5. and all the substance of true doctrine z Pur. 393.405 And also that they did inuocate Saintes denying in other y Supr pa. 139.140 places that such be true Christians The like q Su. p. 141. of Fasting 12 x Pur. 51.26.166.177.184 The opinion of Purgatorie satisfaction of sinnes after this life is the very doctrine of licentiousnesse to mainteine wicked men in their presumptuousnes For what hast will they make to amendment newnes of life when they haue hope of release after their death Contra As S. Augustine saith Pur. 448. it is but for smal faultes or as M. Allen saith for great faultes that by penaunce are made small And is God suche a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children whom he pardoneth of all their great and haynous sinnes O blasphemous helhoundes Sée how vehement he is in contradicting him selfe to iustifie that saying of D. Allens I am well assured there dare no man Pur. 150. though he were destitute of Gods grace yet not for shame of him selfe affirme that the doctrine of Purgatorie is hurtfull to vertuous life Considering that people with vs are told that to escape hell it selfe they must do much more then the Protestants require and more againe to escape Purgatorie according to S. Augustines threatning here cap. 9. pag. 212. 13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden Ar. 73. Supra ca. 1. whether it were a 1000. yeres or 2000. yeres this is certayne that out of this Church none could be saued Contra here ca. 5. he counteth it ynough if the faith of their saluation were in the onely foundation Iesus Christ and that in such a sense as agréeth to men in déede out of the Church Ar. 61 74. Pur. 238. 14 They which hold the foundation that is Christ to wit the Article of Iustification by the onely mercie of God and of the onely Sonne of God are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ Contra here cap. 10. pag. where he saieth that the Anabaptistes are abominable heretikes and that they are not Protestants who yet do hold that article iump as the Protestants do Ar. 36.38 Ar. 71.78.79.80 15 A generall departing from the faith was foreshewed and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra The Church was neuer lost neither when the departing was Generall but hidden in the wildernesse that is from the eyes of the world She is to this day preserued and shal be to the worldes end Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth he hath neuer ben a head without a body Ar. 2.96.26.27 16 The Primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vnto this day by succession not of persons and places but of doctrine faith and trueth These very wordes conteine a manifest contradiction For how can a Church or doctrine faith and truth cōtinue but in persons and places in so much that he saith also We doubt not but God hath alway stirred vp some faithful teachers that haue instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian doctrine Ar. 15.79 17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast inseperable from Christ her head though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse Contra in the same place The true Church vnder the Emperours Constantinus Constans and Valens was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And in another place Ar. 79. The visible Church may become an adultresse and be deuorced from Christ And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harlot Ar. 79. 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect and the liuely members of the body of Christ shal neuer commit such adultery c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ As though there were another Church besides the visible Church and so two Churches Ar. 65. Contra Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes it is one body of Christ And therfore in dede there is neuer no Church but the visible Church the other is but an imagination of the Protestants to delude the world withall As though Luther and the rest that appeared with him had afore their appearing bene secrete Protestants whereas in deede they were open Papistes 19 Anno 607. the Church fled into the wildernes that is Ar. 16.27.79.36 out of the sight and knowledge of the world there to remaine a long season where all this while God hath preserued her vntill suche time as he thought good now in our daies to bring her out of her secrete place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Contra Ar. 77. Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching and ministring of the Sacraments yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Bruno Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Walden Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Where besides his manifest contradiction I note two things against him one that it cost not all these yea very few of these
their liues as by the storie it is certayne The other that neither these afore their appearing were secrete Protestantes or Heretikes but open Papistes or Catholikes as I noted before of Luther And so he hath not yet found his Chimera or inuisible Church 20 To bring her againe into open light Ar. 16.96 Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Contra From the yere of our Lord 1414. Ar. 36. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world 21 The Reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the third c. Ar. 38.36.16 For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation and cōming and for the Generall defection Contra Ar. 16. She hath not decayed there in the wildernes but bene always preserued vntil god should reueale Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was Ar. 27.95 to be out of the sight knowledge of the wicked Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season Againe Although it were vnknowen to the Papistes yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England whē Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowen to the Papistes Ar. 80. 23 A rule of the Logicians No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a bodie in earth yet could it be knowen of none but such as knew Christ the head of that bodie of whom the Papistes were ignorant Ar. 96. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowlege of the world So that now bylike the Papistes know Christ Pur. 450. Ar. 77.79.80 or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowen to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 405. Ar. 95.82.74.80 24 We beleeue that the vniuersall Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here cap. 10. Dem. 6. And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudent lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enemies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof Pur. 377. 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or companie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs al. Contra c Ar. 95.79.82.106 That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lye It was in Italy when Marsilius preached c. Vt supra in contrad 22. c Ar. 95.79.82.106 Chrs s t hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth though the blind worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse but persecute her as if she were an adulteresse c Ar. 95.79.82.106 She was knowen to them that were her children c Ar. 95.79.82.106 The Church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95. 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Contra d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It should ouerflow and fill all the world with righteousnes Esa 10. d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 That God hath an holy vniuersall Congregation it is necessarie to beleeue d Ar. 73.83.80 Sup. pa. 117 It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world 27 e Ar. 12.3.69 Christes Church is now by God inlarged farther thē the Popish Church Contra f Ar. 73.80 It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant Church of Antichrist whose number is as the sand of the sea Apoc. 20. 28 It is a good argument that the Popish Church is not the Church of Christ Ar. 27. because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages in their gouernement and ministerie and especially the succession of Popes you can rehearse in order vpon your fingers And it were a token that our Church were not the true Church if we could name suche notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie Contra a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Suche officers as are necessarie for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of fayth and the knowledge of Christe our Churche hath neuer lacked notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 because our Churche had not so many Registers Chroniclers and remembrauncers the remembraunce of all their names is not come vnto vs. a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 For the authoritie of the Bible we haue the testimonie of the true Churche in all ages a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 Our Congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures Their inuisible Church had alvvayes the Scripture in the vulgare tongues a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath neuer suffered the true Churche to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture Whiche the Popishe Churche hath so keapt in an vnknowen tongue that the people coulde haue no vse muche lesse the necessarie vse thereof a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Churche of God hath alwayes had Scholes and Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 It was neuer so secret nor hidden but it might be knowen of all those that had eyes to see it a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 That thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching ministring and correcting a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers a Ar. 28.27.9.6.5.52.11.74.75.26.82 The Church hath neuer bene afrayde to do her office towards her children and true members in teaching exhorting comforting confirming c. 29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp Contra Ar. 27. Ar. 85. The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching and neuer preached the word of trueth 30 Touching the text Mat. 5. of a Citie buylded vpon an hill Ar. 100. which can not be hidden after he hath giuen his sense of it he saith Hereby it appeareth how fondly some Papistes and some of the Doctors in their error do expoūd this place to proue that the Church must alwayes be visible Contra euen in his owne exposition there It is properly
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
allow any dispensation in it be it otherwise neuer so iust As for any Law of Nature you can alleage none against the Churches dispensations no otherwise then against Gods owne dispensations in the time of the old Testament yea if you remember your selfe well they were allowed then some of them at the least by law also and not only by dispensation sometimes which you meane now to be against the Law of Nature Béeing so many wayes ignoraunt in Gods Lawe it is lesse meruaile that you be ignoraunt in the Churches Lawe and agayne in the Churches Diuinitie so that in one place you make it a thing certayne Pur. 35. that the Pope geueth his pardons by the Sacrament of penance As though the Pope beyng at Rome myght be minister of a Sacrament to one in England You might as well thinke that he doth excommunicate by the Sacrament of penance So great a Doctor doth not know that the power of binding and loosing is exercised many other wayes besides that Sacrament Yea not onely in our diuinitie but also in your owne you be so ignoraunt Pur. 13. that you wonder that a Catholike should say that God sometime punisheth sinne with sinne which is a position common to be séen in all Catholike Doctors Thom. 1.2 q. 87. ar 2. complaine that when you say but halfe so much we charge you to make God the Author of sinne Why is not that a common position and long discourses vpō it in your masters bookes that God is the author of sinne Cal. Insti li ca. 14. num 17.18 Melanct. in Epist ad Rom. If you be ashamed thereof and therefore doe say not as an euill author but as a righteous iudge I doe not reprehend you But if you say it of ignoraunce in your owne Scholes learning you must know that your Masters hold it of all sinnes alike as well of that sinne which goeth first in any man as of that sinne which commeth after in him and is sometime the punishment of the former sinne And therefore they holde it of God otherwise then as of a righteous iudge Ergo by your owne diuision as of an euill author For the difference betwéene them and vs is this They denie our Fréewill and make God to worke all sinne in vs in the same sort as he worketh all good in vs to wit per se willing appointing and predestinating vs to sinne euen no lesse then he which leadeth a blind man to fall But we say no more but that when a man hath sinned against him mortally God taketh away his inward grace and sometime also his outward assistance more or lesse according to his most iust will So as if a blinde mans guide should for his desert as because he wil néedes fall when he might stand forsake him either quite or for a time and he afterwardes fall the cause of that fall per se he onely is himselfe as of the former his guide onely per accidens though of the former neither per accidens Euen so doth God who is both the light of our eyes by his grace infused and also our guide by his infinite helpes externall Howbeit he dealeth not with vs all and alwayes according to his iustice but of his infinite mercie commonly he will not let vs fall when we will néedes fall and when we be fallen he will not let vs fall farther yea he raiseth vs often againe when we would lie still yea also when we resist him and fight against him rebelliously a notable example in S. Paules conuersion Act. 9. Iac. 1. that most worthily S. Iames is so vehement to hold and affirme that all good is of him but no euill at all not so much as tentation to euill Moreouer your great skill in Histories Ecclesiasticall appeareth by that you say Supra ca. 2. ca. 10. Dem. 11.3 Ar. 15.16 the Britons to haue kept their Easter so as the Asians did and the Latines to be departed from the Grecians in this present Schisme Which both I noted before Again because you say as it seemeth that Iulianus the Apostata was Emperour after Valens the Arrian Againe speaking of the Estern Churches of Asia at this presente that the newe Testament is printed in the Syrian tongue at the Emperours charges Ar. 6. for the encrease of Christian faith among them What Emperour and what faith I pray you but Catholike or Popish Pur. 373. Againe that the Fathers alleaging Succession of Bishops against Heretikes specially named the Church of Rome it was because those Heretikes for the most parte had beene sometimes of the Church of Rome as Valentinus Marcian Nouatus Those Heretikes that D. Allen speaketh of were not only the Valentinians and Nouatians but also the Donatistes the Arrians yea and all Heretikes in generall Now had the most part of these béen sometimes of the Church of Rome Yea Nouatus him selfe Supra p. 16 was he not a Priest of the Church of Carthage vnder S. Cyprian Who can reade S. Cyprian and be ignorant thereof specially now a dayes after that so many haue noted the error of some Gréeke Historians who in olde time and being farre of could not distinguishe Nouatus of Carthage from Nouatianus of Rome And also of Valentinus and Marcion where haue you that they were of Rome vnlesse all that goe to Rome be of Rome For so wée reade in Ireneus Iren. l. 3. ca. 4. li. 1. ca. 29. Philast in Catal. the time noted when Valentinus came to Rome for by Philastrius he was of Cypres and that Marcion was of Pontus being therefore called Ponticus You might in another sense say that they all other Heretikes were sometimes of the Church of Rome because all lightly were first Catholikes and al Catholikes were as all ought to be of that Churches communion And that to haue bene the cause why the Fathers named that Church specially But so you would not say because you woulde not condemne your selfe for a Schismatike Last of all where you must shew vs wherein the Communion of Saintes consisteth you shew your self againe a great clearke Pur. 199.200 The Scriptures make the Communion of Saints to be as is the Communion of our members in our body Yet you say One can not merite for another no not for him selfe but euery man hath his worthinesse of Christ As though neither Christ could merite for any other no nor for himselfe because he had his worthinesse of God Againe graunting that some of the members be here on earth and some elsewhere yet denying that they may either by prayer also helpe one the other you so define the Communion that you allow it no place for the prayers also of the members aliue to be made for others aliue But only for the dispensation of the grace and giftes of God which as euery one hath receyued of God so of charitie he is bound to imploy the same to the profite