made and contained amongst Christians in Baptisme afore there were any Apostolicall wryting and in Baptisme it was proposed to beléeue the saide Créede afore there was entrie into the wrytings or speache therof in the primitiue Churche wrytings were examined whether they were to be receiued or not and the vnderstanding of the same together if a Doctrine were true or false by this Simboll and rule of Faithe and to imitate or confront it with it as Irenaeus Tertullian and others affirme And though it should happen that a man neuer heard but the Simboll without knowing whether there were holy Scriptures or not yet he might beleeue the said Créede and be a true Christian so that he were not infected with other particulare false opinions And of the contrarie if the beleefe of the Créede depended vppon the knoweledge of the Propheticall or Apostolicall wrytings as to vnderstand and be assured of the conformitie that therein is afore wée beleue it onely wise men and such as were wel studied in writinges who woulde assure them selues of the saide conformitie should be bounde to beleue the Symboll or at the leaste assured of the truthe of the same and so there shoulde be fewe Christians Therefore the beléefe of the Créede dependes not vpon the knowledge of the Scriptures By meane whereof the Doctoures holde by tradition of the Churche gouerned by the holy sprite that the Creede is of the Apostles and that there is no doubte thereof In like sorte by the same tradition we muste geue Faithe to it as a Doctrine of the Apostles not written and yet of equall authoritie with that whiche is in their writings notwithstanding we had no knowledge of other Scriptures The Doctoures are very sory that the other parte hath so muche declined to aunswere pertinently and absolutely to these twoo pointes why they proponed onely to shewe what Faithe and authoritie men oughte to attribute to this Symbol and all other Doctrine receiued by Tradition of the Apostles without Canonical writing whiche might haue bene lefte by them by the same meane and reason that is shewed that the Symboll was geuen to the Christians by the said Apostles without that they put it in writing For ende the Doctours persuade suche as shal reade this conference not to amaze or maruel at so many perplexities declining from the true ende of the said two pointes proponed with request to remember the conferences of S. Augustine with the Donatistes and Pelagians whose fashion resembles the presente manner of the Ministers with whom they conferre laying them selues notwithstanding vpon the iudgemente of suche as shal reade the matter of this disputation Resolution of the Ministers WHo affirme according to the former propositions alwaies mētioned by them also the better to confirme the faithe of the Duches that as S. Cyprian writeth it is incertaine whether the Symbol which beares the name of the Apostles was made composed suche one by them or els drawne and gathered of their Doctrine and also why it is called Symbolum whether it be by reason that euery one of them broughte his parte and portion to it or that it is a marke or certaine signe of Christian Religion as touching whiche Regardes it is a thing indifferente for Saluation as hauing alwayes one equall weighte and authoritie whether the Apostles write it or whether it was faithfully gathered of their writings as were also the Symbols aswel of Niceus as of Athanasius of whom the Church neuer doubted that they conteined not a pure Apostolicall Doctrine as shée hathe well and euidently declared in ordeining that the saide Symboll of Nyceus shoulde be openlye published to the people when they assembled for the Communion the same being in obseruation at this day in the Churche of Rome where this Symboll is readde and sunge euery Sonday in the Temples whiche if it conteined not Apostolicall Doctrine it shoulde impugne the 59. Articles of the Councell of Laodicene by whiche it is forbidden to reade in the Churche any thing of Priuate inuention but onely the Doctrine comprehended in the Canonicall Bookes of the Olde and Newe Testament whose number is there made The Ministers doo further affirme that the reason and principall cause of the Faithe which Christians adde to this Créed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure woord of God and he that teacheth it mainteines also that it is Gods woorde the same appearing by the testimony and writing of S. Paule who after he hath proponed to the Corinthians the Deathe Buriall and Resurrection of Iesus Christe whiche be the principall Articles of the Créede as vpon whiche also our iustification is chiefely founded Addeth this speache that he hathe geuen them that whiche he hathe receiued whiche is that Christe is deade for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and after that he was buried and is risen againe the thirde daye according to the Scriptures Christe him selfe also proposing in like sorte his Deathe and Resurrection to his twoo Disciples alleageth to them the Scriptures for their more assurance saying Oh fonde weake of hart to beleue all things that the Prophets haue pronounced was it not méete the Christ suffred these things and that he entred into his glorie then beginning at Moyses and the other Prophetes he declared to them in all the scriptures the things that were of him selfe In the same chapter appearing to them after his Resurrectiō yea afore the créede was made speaking to them of his death and resurrection for their better assuraunce he laies vnto them the scriptures saying It is so written and it was méete that Christ suffred and rise from death the third day by which wée maie inferre that for the grounde of Faithe and assurance of the Articles of the same there is no better meane than to propone the Scriptures And albeit in the tyme of the Natiuitie of the Churche the Créede was proponed to suche as were Catechised afore the Apostles or Euangelistes had sette downe any thing in writing yet it foloweth not for all that that there were not other scriptures vppon which mighte be founded euery Article of Faithe Whiche to decypher by péecemeale the Article of Creation hathe his fundation vppon the beginning of Genesis The Article of the Almightinesse of God hathe his grounde vppon the 40. of Esaie and many other places of scripture The Article of the Conception of Iesus Christe vppon the vij of Esay For the place of his Natiuitie vppon the v. of Micheas and for the Regarde of the Time vppon the xlix of Genesis and ix of Daniel The Article of his death the Crosse vpon the xxij Psalme xxxv of Esay and ix of Daniel The Article of Resurrection vppon the xvj Psalme the Article of Ascension vppon the xcviij Psalme the Article of the Iudgemente in Daniel xij the Article of his sending the holy ghost in Ioel ij the Article of the Church in Esay 2. and Micheas 4. the Article of Remission of
the former And albeit the Prophetes and Apostles had not written at al the church notwithstanding had bene grounded vpon their foundation as it was in the time of Abraham and afore there were any Scripture which if it had bene necessary to saluation it had bene put among the Articles of Faithe Aunsvvere The Ministers holde this Replie muche more impertinent and touching the reason that is added that Faithe was in the time of Abraham albeit there was no woorde written they accorde to it But this is euil inferred there is no woorde written then there is no woorde at all And it is a fallax in argument which the Dialecticians name a Dicto secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter from a saying modified to that is simplie saide The fourth day of disputation being Friday the tvvelfth of Julie THe Ministers aduouche to cleane alwaies to their former request obseruing the Protestations aforesaide made by the Doctoures who haue twise declared that they assembled not but to satisfie the Lord of Montpensier and the Ladie Buillon according also to whose request publikely made in the company to be instructed vpon the point of the Supper and not in other matters wherein shée accompts her selfe sufficiently taught and hath no neede of more ample instruction and therefore the saide Ministers require as afore that the first pointe which they should conferre vpon might be the supper and the masse the rather for that they vnderstoode by people woorthy of faith and credite that the Doctoures meant nothing lesse than to enter disputation vpon that grounde Héereupon the Doctoures say they are ashamed to heare so often Protestacions and that the Ministers séeme to féede with suche fashions of purpose to eschue conference in the Articles of their Confession which notwithstanding they haue oftentimes offered to be examined And where they alleage that the Ladie of Buillon for whose instruction the companie is assembled hathe openly required to be instructed vppon the Article of the Masse and not otherwayes They Aunswere that shée put out a motion to procure conference of the Masse but they neuer heard that shée helde hir selfe sufficiently instructed touching the other Articles If the Duchesse will confesse that shee beléeues all the other Articles proponed by the Ministers and their likes against the doctrine of the Catholike church to be erronious they are ready from the present to enter into conference of the Masse But of the contrary if shee be imbrued with the erroures impugning the doctrine of the Catholike church in respect to vse order appertaining to instructoures and to lay the foundations of the Masse the Doctours are determined according to the good and holy desire of the Lorde of Montpensier to Catechise and teache the Lady his Daughter euery Article and by order They say further that the Ministers are infected with the custome of those of their Church which is that to eschue alwayes conference with the Catholikes afore the decision of the poynt proponed they thrust an other into disputation according to the example of Beza and other ministers that were with him at Poyssi who séeing the matter of the Supper was argued against them in the Priours chamber at Poissi in the presence of the Quéene Princes of the bloud and other Lordes of the Councell made Request many times to let fall that point indecided and enter vppon others more euident and manifest againste the Catholikes as of Images and other like And of the contrary the Ministers this day to auoide the great erroures in their interpretation of the Créede will foiste in the pointe of the Supper onely the Doctoures beséeche as before that confusion auoided Religion may be examined by order And leaste it be thought that the Doctoures refuse to enter conference of the Masse and Supper according to their constante meaning as in déede vnder generall correction they neuer denied to dispute of them the better to instructe the Duchesse and with more spéede they are readie to dispute with open voice and euident Declaration by the expresse woorde of God that Iesus Christe hath instituted and saide the Masse and his Apostles also They offer also that what so euer shall be deliuered by voice and spéeche touching this matter to be sette downe in wryting the next dayes after and put in order as the instruction of the Duchesse requires it Referring themselues for the day to the oportunitie of the Ladie Héere the Ministers made Aunswere that all these offers were superfluous and vnprofitable because suche conferences are but debates and alterations offending and slaundering more than they edifie Resolution of the Doctoures THe Doctors according to the order already begon and their charge which is to conferre with the Ministers and then yéelde Resolution for the instruction of the Duchesse of Buillon Touching the two pointes proponed yesterday whether the Apostles be Authoures of the Créede and why we ought to giue Faithe thereunto say it ought not to be estéemed a thing indifferent to knowe if the Apostles made and erected the Créede no more than to know if the Apostles be the Authors of their wrytings For as their Authoritie is farre greater in the assuraunce that they procéede certainely from the Apostles euen so of the contrary it should be lesse by many degrées ▪ if we either doubted of it or vsed it as indifferent They say further it is no sufficient reason to cal this Créede Apostolicall and to Christen it by the name of the Apostles in respecte of the conformitie it hath with their writings seeing that by the same reason other Simbols as that of Niceus Athanasius suche other like writings may beare also the name of the apostles Creede as containing a doctrine agréeing with the writings of the Apostles and therfore the Doctors say we must beleeue that the Apostles haue made deliuered to Christians this Créede and applie faith to it as being a wryting composed by the Apostles for proofe whereof they haue the aucthoritie of all times since the Apostles till now that this Creede hath bene proponed in Baptisme and Catechisme as appeareth by the Authors which haue bene from the Apostles til our time neither can we name or note any Author or Councell which hathe made this Créede that afore the same Author or Councel euen vntill we come immediatly to the Apostles this Simboll hath not bene proponed in Baptisme and Catechisme and called amongste Christians the rule of Faithe which our such argument S Augustine in many places against the Donatistes estéemes inuincible to proue that something there is of the Apostles Omitting willingly for wearinesse sake other Auncientes who acknowledged this Créede to be made and receyued namely of the saide Apostles as S. Ambrose S. Ierome and others Touching the second pointe the Doctoures say that the bonde and necessitie to beléeue this Simboll dependes not of the knowledge of the Apostolicall or Propheticall wrytings nor of the knowledge of their conformitie with them for it was
to pray to God in their beginning as they had desired were not taken awaye meanes for good order established the better to brydle the confusion of popular showtes and voyces as happen ordinarily in the Schooles of Sophisters and people inclyned to cauell Thys spéeche of the Lord Admirall kindled such a sense of reason in the Lorde of Neuers that induced chiefly by the spirite of God and partly by an heroycall instinct of heart laboring in desire to aspire to the direct truth of things hée became a sutor to their Maiesties that by their authoritie and suffraunce the sayde disputation might procéede and be eftsoones restored wherein as he preuayled to the full effect of his request and purpose so after he had ymparted wyth the Lorde Admirall the disposition of the King and Quéene they ioyned in deuise touching the order to be obserued in the sayd conference naming the sayde Lorde of Neuers and the Duke of Buyllon as Presidents of the place wyth certaine numbers of Gentlemen mutuall assistauntes to recorde and witnesse the manner of their procéedings prouyding lastly two Notaries of Parys for eyther side to subsigne and set downe in wryting the true discourse of eyther seuerall parties These condicions thus determined by the Lordes were also receyued of the Doctors Vigor and De sainctes for the Papistes and De spina and Sureau Ministers Assembling according to the appointment the ninth of Iuly at the Lorde of Neuers house where in hys presence and hearing of the reast of the assistants after the Ministers had prayed which the Doctors did shonne as retyring elsewhere till they had done Doctor Vigor vndertooke the first spéeche with protestation that neyther he nor his companion came thyther to enter argument with the Ministers in any néede or meaning to be instructed in pointes of religion and much lesse to impugne in any sort the counsels and specially that of Trent by which they were forbidden to dispute with Heretikes Assuring resolutely for themselues to abyde constantly in the fayth of the Church of Rome onely such was the request of the Lorde of Montpensier who to reclaime his daughter the Lady of Buyllon had procured that conference as they were the rather drawne thyther aswell to satisfie hym as also to declare their holy zeale to séeke and bring agayne to their flock such as were gone astray The Ministers for their partes protested lykewise not to be enforced to conference by any doubt they made in anye article of their confession as knowing the same to consent simplie and fully with the perfite worde of God but rather to strengthen and defende it agaynst the Sophistries of such as séeke to impugne it pretending also to kéepe and establish the sayde vertuous Ladie of Buyllon in that state and holye institution which Gods grace had happily instilled into hir These protestations thus mutually alledged the Ministers looked that the Doctors according to the meaning of the Lorde of Montpensier and desire of his daughter woulde beginne their disputation with the matter of the supper and the Masse albeit vsing the example and pollicy of such as pretending the siege and batterie of a towne beginne to raise their Trenches a farre off so they the better to prepare themselues to decyde and consult in the sayde two poyntes began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the church vpon the which they sought to establishe the certaintie of the articles of fayth and generally of all the holye scripture And so the demaundes and obiections passing from the Doctors and aunswers returned by the Ministers De sainctes began and Despina aunswered as followeth Question Vpon what doe you establishe your religion Aunswere Vpon Gods worde Question What vnderstande or meane you by Gods worde Aunswere The wrytings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doe ye receyue by their wrytinges all the bookes of the Byble as well of the olde as newe Testament gyuing to them all an equall authoritie Aunswere No but according to the instruction of antiquitie we vse distinction betwéene the Canonical and Apocryphall bookes calling such canonicall vpon whose doctrine both faith and all christian religion is founded and the other we name apocryphall as vpon whose authoritie we cannot establishe any article of fayth onely they are proper in respect of their notable sentences to instruct the state of lyfe and maners of christians Question Howe know you that the one are canonicall and the other apocryphall Aunswere By the spirite of God which is a spirite of discretion gyuing lyght to all such to whom it is communicated to make them capable of power to iudge discerne spirituall things and comprehende the truth when it is propounded to them by the testimonie and assuraunce which he kindles in their hearts wherein as we discerne the light and darkenesse by the facultie of the sight that is in our eye euen so being furnished with Gods spirite and guyded by the lyght which he kindles in our hartes may we easily deuyde and knowe the truth from deceyt and generally all other thinges which may contayne falshoode absurditie doubt or difference Question But some may vaunt to haue the spirite of God which haue him not lyke as we finde by the hystories that all the heretikes thought assuredly to haue the truth on their sides studying to authorize their doctrine by the inwarde reuelations which they fayned to receyue of Gods spirite by which may appeare what daunger it were to reappose or commyt the censure of a booke or doctrine to the testimonie of Gods spirite which a priuate man perswades or faynes to haue receyued in his hart Aunswere This perill is easily auoyded by the aduise of the Euangelist Iohn in his first Catholike as not to settle an indifferent beliefe to al spirites but rather to prooue and examine them diligently afore we admit them and then allow what they propownde wherein the examination which we ought to make in thys case is to consider first the ende of the doctrine that shall be pronounced purpose of any booke presented to vs For if it tende to rayse and establishe the glorie of God it is true according to the woordes of Iesus Christ in Iohn hee that searcheth Gods glorie is true and there is no iniustice in him in this viewe and examination we haue also to consider that if it consent with the proportion and analogie of fayth as Paule sayth it agrées fully with the chiefe groundes of religion Question All men say and may saye as much but for this reason it is an argument insufficient tyll I be warranted by effect and other proofes how I may rest and stay my selfe vppon it Besides this aunswere excéedes the lymites of the proposition as presupposing the scripture to be knowne to be the grounde of religion and the proposition was layde to giue the reason to assure me that the scripture was of God and that we must put a distinction betwéene the bookes of the same Aunswere
not different of him selfe and abiding in a particular man he shall alwayes acknowledge the Scripture that comes of him and which beares his markes And touching the second demaund we say also that the same spirite being in a third man shal acknowledge that aswell the woorde as the Reuelation are of him by the reasons alledged that is that Gods spirite in diuers persones is alwayes equal and like to himselfe Obiection This dothe not satisfie the firste Question proponed which conteined a demaunde how any man can iudge in him selfe that he hath the holy spirit to discerne and iudge a boke to be of the holy Scripture and an other not to be but Apocryphall and lastly how he can make demonstration to an other that he is possessed with this inspiration of God. Aunswere The spirite of God is called a seale in the Scripture for that the firste effecte he bringes forthe in the heart of him to whom he is communicated is to assure him of his presence And to assure a second of the Reuelation which we haue receiued of Gods spirite it is also easie for that the spirite of God which openeth the mouth of one to speake openeth also the eares of an other to heare his woorde the heart to beléeue him and himselfe to persuade it so that betwéene the maister and disciple the Doctor and the hearer being bothe furnished and lightened by Gods spirite there is also a mutuall concorde to knowe one an other Obiection Suche a certaintie is a great incertaintie neither is there any of what secte so euer he be who doth not assure him selfe to haue the holy spirite and truthe of his side which is a fond presumption howe may a man distinguishe a presumption from a true inspiration Aunswere S. Iohn Chrysostome saith that in vaine doth a man vaūte himselfe to haue the spirite withoute the woorde which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge all matters that the heretikes and others would propounde vnder the authoritie and title of Gods spirite For as by this spirite we knowe the true sense of the woord euen so do we discerne mutually by the woord who they be that haue the spirite of God and who not Obiection This is no Aunswere to the Demaunde for there is no Question to examine the doctrine by the woord but to know that it be the woorde of God by whiche we wil examine the doctrine and approue it and how a man shall iudge assuredly that he hath a Reuelation of the Lord and that it be Gods woorde Aunsvvere If he be one of the faithfull he may iudge by Gods spirite that is in him as in him that telles it him And if he be of the vnfaithfull it is as impossible that he iudge as a blinde man to discerne coloures laid afore him bicause as S Paule saith it is by the spirite of God by whom we knowe and iudge the things that are of God. Obiection This Aunswere is yet insufficient to the Question produced wherof let the iudgement rest among the hearers and Readers But now wée put foorth an other demaund whether wee are certaine by Gods woorde that the Lord assistes his Churche and will assiste it vntill the consummation of the worlde And whether there be not more assurance to staie vpon the consentes and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonical Bookes of the holy Scripture and the distinction of the same from the Apocryphall than to rest vpon singular iudgement esteeming it to be an inwarde inspiration of the whiche there can be no proofe made but only by opinion that wee haue the holy sprite Aunswere The Doctors confuse the opinions of the fantastical sort with the testimonies and Reuelations of the Holy Sprite notwithstanding there is asmuch distinction betwene them two as from heauen to earth And touching the consente of the Churche supposed to procéede of the Sprite of God it is infallible and of no lesse certaintie than the particulare Reuelations of Esay and other Prophetes And because both the one and the other procéede of one Authour whiche is the Sprite of Truth the certeintie of the Reuelations of Gods Sprite made to al the Church in generall to euery particular member of the same conteine one self poyse weight Obiection The Ministers cannot conceale from the Catholikes or others but that they are fantastike as making no proofe of the Reuelation of the Holy Sprite made to them no more than other sectes doo And touching that pointe supposed that it proceedes of Gods sprit they seeme to dout of the assistance of the Holy sprite in Gods Church which as S Paule saith Est columna firmamentum Veritatis Wherein is to be wel considered that they hold them more certaine of the assistaunce of the Lorde in particulare than in the vniuersall Church by which the conclusion may folowe that aswel the particular faithful can neuer straie as also that he is a piller of truth no lesse than the vniuersal Churche besides in laying the particular Reuelations in equal ballaunce weight with the iudgement of the Church they doo openly impugne their confession of faith in the fourth Article wher it is thus written Wée know these Bookes to be Canonical a most certaine rule of our faith not so much by the common accord consent of the Church as the testimonies and inward persuasion of the holy sprite who makes vs discerne them from the other ecclesiastical Bookes By the said Article it is seene howe muche they doo attribute to them selues more than to the whole vniuersal Church which Article they doo now resist giuing asmuch to the one as to the other yea in the confession of faithe lastly printed the saide Article was taken awaye as appeareth by that whiche this daye Spyna hathe broughte hither printed at Geneua 1564. by whiche may be séene that they retracte them selues as confessing that it behooues more te staie vpon the common consents of the church than vpon particulare the same being reasonable séeing the holy sprite is promised to the vniuersal Churche and not to euery particulars man. Aunswere If the Ministers may be thoughte fantasticke notwithstanding they haue Gods woorde with better proofe the Doctors maie be holden such in matters which they mainteine and defende both without against Gods woorde touching the seconde pointe reprouing the Ministers that they dout of the assistaunce of the sprite of God to the Church your aunswere is that the dout is not there but to know which is the true Church For the third point where the Doctors allege that it maie be inferred that particular menne cannot erre the consequence is nothing woorthe bicause the Sprite of God maye sommetime departe from menne in whiche case they maye faile and erre as Dauid confesseth did happen to him To the fourthe pointe the Ministers aunswere that they impugne not in any sorte the Article alleaged of their confession bicause the Aunswere
Neuers made request that after their Obiections and Aunsweres they would procéede to Resolution on both sides touching the conference the day before According to which motion the Doctors say that to iudge of a Booke whether it be written of the holy scripture or not and likewise to discerne a Canonicall Booke from an Apocriphal or Ecclesiastical we must not rest vpon a priuate or particulare inspiration because a singulare persone can not haue any ordinarie certaintie that it is a true Reuelation of the holy spirite but stay vpon the common consent and accorde of the vniuersal churche And also that God notwithstanding he might haue reuealed to euery one the true knowledge necessary to saluation yet he hathe ordained a certaine meane to attaine to faithe which is a truthe reuealed meaning by the hearing of Gods woord preached by lawfull ministers sent by the pastors of the true churche as appeareth by the â—exte of S. Paule to the Romaines .10 and Ephes 4. So that if they meane to haue faithe and inwarde Reuelation of the knowledge of saluation come by the hearing of Gods woorde lawfully preached by the ministers of the same according to the ordinarie meane of assurance that we haue the inwarde Reuelation it must necessarily be assured that the woorde by which faithe is gotten hath bene preached by the lawfull ministers of the true church so by consequence be assured of the church afore the inward Reuelation obseruing the meane which Iesus Christe folowed They say further that the true and certaine marke of a true inwarde Reuelation is when it is referred to the common consente of the church And that of the contrary euery preteÌ„ded inward inspiration particulare or priuate is a false persuasion if it differ from the common accorde of the churche for Gods spirite is not particulare but common They say also that to take a false Doctrine we must examine it to know whether it be priuate or common like as our Lord in S. Iohn 8. hathe giuen a true marke saying Qui de se loquitur mendatium loquitur he that saith any thing of himselfe and his proper inspiration is a lier In like sorte it is written in Ezechiel Sonne of man Prophecie against the Prophetes of Israel which Prophecie say to suche as Prophecie in their heart heare the woorde of the Lorde So saithe the Lord cursse be vpon the false Prophets who follow their spirite and haue seene nothing And a little after they sée vaine things and a Diuination ful of dreames saying the Lord saythe and the Lord sent them not and yet they haue giuen assuraunce to confirme the woorde of their Prophesie which false Prophets said they had 〈◊〉 inwarde Reuelation and the woorde of God. They woulde also that it be well wayed and considered that the stay of religion grounded and assured vppon an inwarde inspiration is the foundation of many sectes of our time as Anabaptistes and Swinfeldiens who lay their Doctrines vpon priuate â—â—â—elations alleaging proper places to serue them as a grounde of their Doctrine which the ministers inferred yesterday as Ieremie in the .3 Chap. Ioel. 2. and S. Paule 1. Cor. 2. The which being considered by Brentius and Bucer they haue confessed that by the only tradition of the church we were ascertained of the Bookes of the holy scripture according to the Doctrine of the auncientes as S. Ierome who confesseth to haue receiued by tradition of the churche and by the same to haue knowne that there be foure gospels Origen also saithe asmuch who reciting the Canonical Bookes of the newe Testament saith I haue learned by tradition that there be foure gospels neither is there fouÌ„d any auncient catholike that hath stayed his faith to discerne and iudge of Bookes vpon his only priuate and particulare inspiration And S. August lib. confess ca. 25 â—seth these woordes Veritas tua Domine non mea nec illius aut illius sed omnium nostrum quos ad communionem aduocas terribiliter admouensne priuatam veritatem habeamus ne priuemur ca. And touching the Bookes of the olde Testament whiche the Ministers will not receiue as Canonical by the iudgement of their inwarde Reuelation the Doctors auouche that before S. Augustines time or at the least in his time in the vniuersall churche all the Bookes contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued as Canonicall according to the testimonie of the Councel of Carthage where S Augustine was present and also the Councell Laodicene the Doctors also saie that if by inwarde inspiration we must iudge of Bookes the Fathers that assisted those Councels had it or at leaste might persuade them selues to haue it with more assurance than many others But where the Ministers saie that by theire inwarde Reuelation they iudge that they are not Canonicall 〈◊〉 Doctors referre to iudgemente who oughte soonest to bâ—â—â—â—eued either the inspiration of the Auncientes receiued by the Churche by so many hundred yeres vntil this time or the priuate and particulare inspiration of the newe Ministers They saie further that they offer to proue that the Aunciente Fathers euen suche as wâ—â—e neare the Apostles time as Irenaeus S. Cyprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others vse testimonies of Bookes reiected by the Ministers euen in the proofe of the Doctrine against Heretikes yea S. Augustine him selfe in the seconde Booke of Christian Doctrine Chap. 2. puttes all those Bookes amongeste the Canonicalles as also Damascene in the fourthe Booke De Orthodoxa Fide Chap. 18. So that to knowe if a man haue the spirite of God to discerne and iudge of the Bookes of the Scripture it behooues to reste vpon the common consente and accorde of the Churche as being the ordinarie meane of God lefte for that effecte experience also whiche maie be made is a sufficiente Argumente to conuince that the Faithfull by the inwarde inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall Bookes from the pretended Apocryphall which mighte be easily verefied if there were here at this presente euen somme of the Religion pretended reformed to whom not hauing bene as yet instructed in the diuision of Bookes if those Bookes were presented whiche the Ministers holde for Apocryphal they would not distinguish them in any sort from the other Bookes of the holy Bible And vpon all they conclude that if a man haue Goddes sprite c. vt supra Aunswere Touching the firste Article the Ministers were neuer of opinion as appeares in their former aunsweres that their Religion was grounded vppon theire particulare Reuelations but vpon the woorde of God according as it is sette foorthe in the Writinges of the Prophetes and Apostles the truthe of whiche they saide was moste principally assured by the testimonie and Reuelation of the holy Sprite They saie also that Faithe is not the Truthe in proper speache but the persuasion of the Truthe whiche is taughte vs in the Scripture Like as also this Faithe is not of our owne getting but a pure
when the occasion shall moue whiche they had presently done were not theire intente to shewe contrary to the imputation of the Doctors that they wil not straie nor wander nor vary any way from the conference of the pointes of their confession Replie The Doctours Reciprocally agrée with the Ministers to the offer aforesaid with modification to adde for their parts the authoritie of the vniuersall Church and ancient Doctors for the interpretation and vnderstanding of the holy Scriptures when they differ or cannot agrée The thirde day of disputation being Thursdaye the tenth of Iuly THe Ministers haue shewed what be the protestations of the Doctors as not to come to conference for other end than to satisfie the Lady of Buillon and not to be instructed or informed in the pointes of the Religion they holde And likewise howe the Ministers protested for theire partes not to conferre with them in respecte they stoode doutful tn any pointe of their confession wherein they rested absolutely resolued By reason of whiche protestations they required that the first pointe of their conference might be that which the Lady Buillon hath publikely praied to be decided which is the Supper and the Masse to the ende also they might be cleared of the charge of imputation laide vpon them by the Doctors that they varied and woulde not come to the principall pointe whiche is the matter of the Masse but of the contrarye did eschewe and shunne the conference thereof Finally to the ende it be knowne whiche of them flittes from the decision of it they offer after that pointe be confuted to enter conference with them if it so like them touching al the other pointes which remaine in cōtrouersie as leasure and time shal be allowed them They required also to cutte of all confusion and suche as happened the daye before in the conference that the Doctors would propound particularely their argumentes apart and that aunsweres mighte succéede accordingly in like order by the Ministers or els if they wil propounde their argumentes and reasons together there shoulde be graunted vnto them a whole daie of pourpose wherein they might wel doo it without any interruption with this condition that the nexte day shoulde distende to the Ministers to aunswere by order to all their argumentes The Doctours saie that by that which is written heretofore of the Ministers it maie be easily knowne that they haue alwayes drawne backe as at this present they doo refuse to enter conference of things which they haue committed to cōtrouersie maruelling greatly that this day they wil not suffer the Articles of their confession to be examined by order as in the firste daie of conference they did require in the presence of the Lorde de Neuers the Lorde and Lady of Buillon with other Lordes and Gentlemenne presenting their saide confession conteined in a litle guilte Booke with offer to the Doctoures to examine them by order if they thoughte so good whiche they accoumpted very reasonable Whereupon yesterday they departed with this Couenant that from this daie they woulde beginne to examine the Articles of the Créede the Ministers them selues hauing demaunded of the Doctours whereuppon the◠woulde entreate And touching their speache of the Protestation that the assembly was erected for the instructiō of the Lady whose desire stretcheth as they say in her absence to be first iustructed touching the Masse the said Doctors say that the Ministers haue taught the said Lady with maine voice not onely error concerning their supper but also in many other pointes as they wil make manifest when the Articles of the confession by them examined shal be handled So that they desiring to instruct by order the said Lady in the catholike Religiō did determine to obserue the order holden of all the Fathers of the Churche that is to reueale to her how many errors are conteined in the Catechisme of theire Churche againste the Articles of Faithe notwithstanding that they persuade to those of theire Religion that touching those Articles they differ nothing from the Catholikes wherein bicause to instructe a personage it is necessarie wée beginne at the fundations and that of certaine Articles of the Créede wherein the Ministers and their like doo erre dependes a beginning of the proofe of the Real Presence of the Body of Christe in the Sacrament of the Alter they stande to folowe the order of all good Scholemaisters and Teachers in discipline and whiche the Ministers them selues obserue according to the methode in theire Catechisme And with good right mighte the worlde smile at the Doctors who are taken for instructers if at the pleasure of the Ministers them selues they woulde beginne to teache a personage by the pointe wherein they ought to end like as the Catechisme of the Ministers doothe ende of the matter of the Supper Besides séeing the Ministers by theire owne motion are contente that all the Articles of their cōfession be examined they haue no interest at all to make vs beginne at the firste séeing besides it is the consent of al order yet it is alwaies at the choise of the proponer to put foorthe by suche order as he thinkes beste the questions of disputations if any be wherein séeing they are bounde to yéelde reason of their Faithe as often as they are required it cannot be inexpedient aswell for the benefite of the Lady as instruction of such as shal reade the conference to folowe this methode whiche offer of the Doctors if they refuse they cannot shifte of the generall iudgemente of the worlde that distrusting their doctrine whiche they dare not mainteine they confuse the conference Touching theire requeste that in the conference the Doctors should exhibite but one reason at once to the ende they maie aunswere without confusion or els that in one daye the Doctors maie propone al their reasons and in an other daie the Ministers aunswere them The firste offer séemes reasonable to the Doctors and they accepte it for feare to enter into long speaches But for the seconde they neuer hearde that any suche was practised neither is it needeful to assemble in one place for that pourpose but sende their writings mutually one to an other Aunswere Touching to exhibite theire confession and their offers whiche the Doctors suppose the Ministers haue made they referre them to the Registers alleaging further that it appeares by the laste proposition of the Doctors that it is not vppon the confession whiche the Doctors saie was exhibited to them but vpō the Catechisme that they wil ground their disputation For ende the Ministers protest againe as before to the ende it may be knowne to the multitude who they be that refuse the lystes requiring that the order to argue and aunswere maie runne from henceforwarde enterchangeably betwéene them and the Doctors seeing it is méete things be equall and necessarie that the Doctoures yéelde reason of theire Faithe as wel as the Ministers Replie The Doctours referre them selues to that whiche hath bene sette downe
which euer hath bin in the world laying the worshipping of Images the inuocation intercession to Saincts the veneration of relikes other like impieties to the honor of God persuading the ignorante that al the was done to aduance him Vnder pretence likewise of his seruice he hath brought in all the contradictions and inuentions of men and chaunged with the time the true and lawfull seruice of God whiche consistes in the obedience of his Holy wil as he hathe declared it to vs in his Lawe and his woorde into obseruation of their commaundementes ceremonies by them inuented vnder pretence and colour of the Sacramentes ordeined by God for confirmation exercise and nourtour of the Faithe of his Churche there is crepte in the Masse which is not the ruine and absolute subuersion of the supper but also an abolishment of al the benefites of Iesus Christe and by consequent of the Faith of all true Religion vnder colour shadowe of Holinesse and vnder shadowe of chaste shamefast and honest conuersation whiche is principally required in the Ministers and Pastours of the Churche he hath established serilitie or singlenesse and hath taken from them al libertie of Marriage which hathe bene the occasion of muche Filthinesse Infamies stinking execrable Whooredomes Lechery which are amongst the Papists seene vnder colour of Praiers which wée are commaunded to make one for an other and Charitie by the which wee are bounde to succour the poore and néedy he hathe broughte in Suffrages whiche haue bene sung for the Dead Merites and Woorkes of Supererogation and other like Abominations vnder colour of the day of Reste which God hathe chosen and assigned to the sanctifying of his Holy name to the contemplation of his Woorkes to the recording and preaching of his benefites and fauours he hath brought foorth infinite prophane Holy dayes in whiche Goddes name is blasphemed his Ordinaunces corrupted and his Alliance violated Yea who can number the wicked abominations whiche were committed in those dayes vnder the pretence of the Keies and Discipline of the Church wherof the Administration and vse was giuen to the Ministers of lawful vocatiō as to haue a meane to preserue the Doctrine pure to enterteine a good order in the Churche and to withstande the slaunders which mighte happen by the insolencie of others he hathe established a tyranny whereof is happened an entyre dissipation of the Church of God a corruption of all estates and the diminishing of the lawful authority which God hath giuē to Kings Princes and Magistrates of whom some haue bene wholy spoiled aswel touching their goodes as dignities by the Pope and his Bishoppes and others so weakened that they are constrained in many places to bowe their neckes and lay it vnder their yoke and power To be shorte this may be noted and obserued in al the enterprises and actions of the Diuel that as he is a Serpent so hath he alwaies ramped creeping as it were couertly vnder leaues and likelyhoodes of godlinesse into the house of God to sowe there the disorder confusion and destruction which he pretended wherein wee see at this day that continuing and folowing as it were his earnest he bringes in the almightinesse of God a title peaceable and fauourable to al the worlde to the ende that vnder the honour and light of such an occasion he may dimme the eies of the ignorant and nussel them stil in the opinion persuasion of their errours which haue no ground in Gods woorde Wee beseeche the Readers as all others also in whom remaines a feare to God and zeale to his honour that with greate wisedome they consider of the saide artificiall practises of the Diuell beleuing not all sprites afore they haue wel sounded and examined them neither let them approue all things that may be proponed to thē vnder the name of God which at the first may seeme to resemble and appertaine to his honor glory but let them remēber the aduise of the Apostle to trie and proue the sprites with diligente regarde to the ende and marke of suche as propone them such doctrines And if on any behalf part wée haue to stād vpon our garde againste suche suttleties and deceites whiche are snares cast out to entrappe the simple we haue special néede of singulare regarde in this matter of Gods Omnipotencie wherof the question lies at this present for we confesse that it oughte to be knowne beleued and woorshipped of al creatures vniuersally that are in Heauen and earth and that the faithful cannot haue a better grounde nor better bulworke to defende them aswell againste the force of the Diuell and the Worlde as their other enimies together with all other temptations wherewith they may be assaulted Wée say this Omnipotency is as the pointe of the Shield vpon the which the worlde and al his partes is turned and holden vp Wée confesse also that this Almightinesse is not onely to be reuerenced of the Angelles and happy Soules in Heauen and of the chosen and holy ones that are in earthe but also to be redoubted of the reprobate and Deuilles that are in Hell whereof the one sorte of frée will doo folowe it and submitte to it and the other are constrained to stoupe vnder it and obey Lastely wee confesse that it is infinite and of a greatenesse incomprehensible to all creatures as the wisedome bountie iustice truth and other vertues and properties of our God. This is it that which wée confesse and beleue of the Omnipotencie of God as also that which wée thinke al Christians ought to holde and beleue And nowe to vse rightly this Omnipotency and apply it as apperteineth wée must iudge of it according to his Wil and of his Wil according to his Woord so that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God al things good euil ordered and disordered conuenient and contrary to his nature false and true things But the better to rule and leade the thoughtes and cogitations rising in our mindes of the Almightinesse of God wée muste measure them for our regarde according to his holy Wil beléeuing that it can not be limited staid or hindred by any other wil or power which wold or can be set against it which S. Augustine teacheth at large in many places as in the fifth Booke of the Citie of God Chapiter 10. where speaking of God he saithe that he calles him selfe Almighty bicause he dothe all that he wil and suffereth nothing onlesse he will it Also in his 21. Booke Chapter 17. he calles him selfe Almighty for none other reason than that onely he can doo all that he will. Also in the Booke of the Symboll and Catec Chapter 1. our God doothe all that he will and that is his Omnipotency Lastely in his Sermon 119. De Tempore he is almighty as dooing all things which he will and ordeines them to be done These sentences with many other like founde in the writings of this good Father and
his iustice life and other fruites of his sacrifice but also they receiue and possesse euen himself and are made one with him no lesse truely and stricktly then the members be conioyned to one head we say further that this coniunction is the fountaine and meane of all the benefites which discende vnto vs by him through Goddes grace But we say with all that this receiuing oughte to be attributed in all and by all to the free woorking of the holy Ghoste who makes vs fitte and capable to knowe our Lord Iesus Christe with all his vertues and propreties and in knowing him to put oure truste in him and in reapposing our truste in him to possesse and enioy him wholly To Aunswere the .vij. question we say that we reiecte and reproue the terme of concomitance togither with the thing it signifieth as being the occasion that the common people haue bene barde and secluded from one of the essential partes of the sacramēt which is the participation of the cup and we say it is an attempt against the diuine maiestie to seeke to seperate that which the sonne of God hathe conioyned denie to any of his membres that which he hath willed and commaūded to be common to all Like as also the reason of the sacrament requires it the same being instituted for our spirituall nouriture the which as doth the corporal consists in eating and drinking To the end therfore that there be a certain correspondencie betwéene bothe it must be that as we are filled with the crucified flesh of Iesus Christ that euen so also we be licoured with his bloud shed for the remission of sinnes To be short seeing the supper was principally instituted to declare the deathe of our Lord that in his death his bloude was deuided from his body it is very conuenient the bread wine be there administred to represent both the one and other more clearly to propound to vs the whole misterie of the death of Christ To the .viij. Question we acknowledge no other cause or meane for remission of sinnes than the grace of God the bloud of Iesus Christ faith by the which the effect of gods grace the frute of the death of Iesus Christ are applied vnto vs. Our Aunswer to the .ix. question is that the faithful comming to the Supper come not to receiue there a newe Iesus Christ with whom they haue not bene conioyned before nether a new iustice which hath not bene cōmunicate to them But we say that if any man present him self there without faith by want wherof he was not vnited incorpored knit in Iesus Christe to participate with his iustice his life other his gifts and blessings in this case the holy supper is vnprofitable to him as meat to a dead man But if liuing by the meanes aforesaid by gods grace the bloud of Iesus Christ and faith he present himself there in such estate that then gods graces are multiplied cōfirmed and increased in him more more as the Circumcision brought not to Abraham a new iustice but sealed and ratified that which had bene communicate to him before by the promisse the which being knowne to the faithfull in what degrée of vertue so euer they be ought not to mistake the holy supper nor in any sorte abstaine from it when they haue the occasion and meanes to assist it considering that they cānot be so farre aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God and in the faithe of his promisses but that they may further profite and encrease therin in what estate so euer they be by the meanes which God hath lefte and ordained for this effecte in his Churche neither is it possible that a man hauing a true faith in his heart do otherwayes hauing the commoditie of it Bicause the nature of faithe is not to comprehend only the promisses of God but also to engender and bring foorthe in the hearts of the Faithfull a wil to obey him with obseruation of his commaundements and ordinances To Aunswere the first Articles proponed by the Doctors touching their Masse we say they blaspheme openly Iesus Christe as to authorise vnder his name and by his example such an abhomination and that also they make a scoffe of the church and the world to preach and wryte such impieties To the second Article of the Masse we Aunswere that there is no other sacrifice in the church by which men are reconciled to God and which makes him mercifull and fauourable to them in appeasing his wrath than only that which Iesus Christe hathe once offred to his father vppon the crosse the vertue of the which being eternal to sāctifie all the beleeuing and obtaine remission of their sinnes for euer there is no néede of any others nor that that which he hath once offered be euer repeated For Answer to the third Article we say that suche as approue the Masse and other sacrificature than that of Iesus Christ and seeke to establish for remission of sinnes an other Sacrifice than that which he himselfe offered in his bodie of the Crosse are Antichristes and deface in so muche as in them is all the vertue and frute of the deathe and sacrifice of the Sonne of God. To Aunswere the fourthe we alleage that which S. Paule wryteth that where is remission there is no more Oblation for the sinne And if it be so that by the death of Iesus Christ remission hathe bene obtained for vs it foloweth that there is no more Oblation for sinne neither in the Masse nor oute of the Masse And if there be none for the liuing there is lesse for them that be dead For Aunswere to the fifthe we maintaine that the Communion is of the essence of the supper according to S. Paule in the first to the Corinthians Chap. 10. and .11 and as the Canon and other partes of the Masse importes For Aunswere to the sixthe we alleage thrée things First that the Masse of the Papists is no Sacrament and then that the bodie of Iesus Christe is not there and conclude thereupon that there can not be worshipped therein but the breade and wine which rest there which being creatures can not be woorshipped but that suche as doe woorship them are Idolatrers To Aunswere the seuenth and last Article we say contrary to the Doctors that there is nothing in the Masse which either directly or indirectly is not contrary to Gods woorde And for Conclusion we aduise and praie the Doctoures not to excéede or forsake the limites of the matter proponed this day to dispute vpon as they haue done héeretofore to the ende that these two pointes which stande at this day in debate betwéene them may be perfectly and wholly decided to the contentment and edifying of suche as shal read the Actes of this conference Tuesday the .30 of Iulie the yeare aforesaid A summary Replie of the Doctours against the laste Aunswere of the Ministers sente to them by the Duke Nyuernois the
for all that one flesh and one body by meane of the societie and matrimoniall acquaintaunce betwene them In like sort be it that Iesus Christ with whom we are knyt and vnited by faith and trust we haue in him and in his promises be as in respect of his body resident in heauen and we remaine here on earth so that there is a great distance betwene him and vs touching his bodye yet that doth not hinder vs to be flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that he is not our head and we his mēbers he our husband and we his spouse that we are not of one self body tyed with him that we are not cloathed of him and that we dwell not in him as the braunches in the vine Neither is there distance of time or place what soeuer it be nor difference of seasons which may hinder that coniunction that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and blood For as the auncient Fathers notwithstandyng they were two or three thousande yeares afore Christ dyed yet forbare not to communicate in his flesh crucified and eate the same meate spirituallye which we eate and drinke the same drink spiritually which we drinke so the faythfull also whiche are comen twelue or fiftene hundreth yeares after forbeare not in what place soeuer they be to participate as the Fathers with the same meate and drinke which they did Neither is there anye other difference betwene the eating of the Fathers that were before the comming of Iesus Christ and suche as haue followed hym but the reason of the more or of the lesse whiche is that in the one there is more ample and expresse declaration of Gods good wyll towardes vs than in the other By which we ought to conclude that from the beginning of the world vntyl the ende there was neuer nor euer shall be other coniunction betwene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Churche than spirituall that is purchased by the spirite of god For euen as there is but one fayth in the Fathers and in vs which considereth alwayes on the one and other syde our Lorde Iesus Christe euen so are not wée conioyned with him in other sorte than they were So that as the Fathers had no other societie or communication then spirituall euen so it followeth also that we neither are nor can be otherwise vnited with him than spiritually And yet do we not say that we and the Fathers are not fleshe of hys flesh and bones of his bones that altogether we participate not as wel with his humanitie as with his diuinitie But all our saying and opinion stretcheth to this that this participation which we haue there is by the operation and vertue of the holy spirite Which Iesus Christ in S. Iohn speaking of this coniunction teacheth clearelye in these fewe wordes the thinges whereof I speake to you are the spirite and life as also S. Paule our Fathers sayth he haue eaten the same spirituall meate and dronke the same spirituall drinke Wherein when we speake of thys spirituall eating both in vs and in our Fathers it must not be thought therefore that we would reiect the holye Supper of the Lord or once thinke that in the same the vse of breade and wyne is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in the Baptisme For our Lorde knowing the hardnesse of our vnderstanding together wyth the infirmitie and weakenesse of oure hearts and by a pitie compassion he hath of vs seekyng to remedye the same was not onely content to leaue vnto vs the ministerie of hys word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in hys flesh and bloud and all the benefites lykewyse depending thereupon But he hath also added thereunto the signes of breade and wyne which he hath annexed to his word as seales to seale in our heartes by the vse of the same the fayth which wée haue of the sayd coniunction by his woord Like as it dyd not suffise him to haue contracted the alliance with Abraham by the word and promise he made him but he added further the signe of Circumcision as a seale to confirme and assure more amply the sayd alliance To the ende then that euery one vnderstande what is the supper of the Lord and also what we beleue and teach of it ther must be considered and acknowledged in the same three thinges First the ordinaunce of the Lord contayned in hys woorde and declared by his Minister according to his commaundement By the which word this holy ceremony was ordained and established in the Churche to edifie and entertayne the members of the same which must be diligentlye obserued as to haue it in such honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to put it on the beadroll or sorte of other ceremonies who haue no other ground or reason of authoritie than the onely wil and traditions of men yet there must be héede taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we speake ther is vnderstanded a certaine pronunciation of words or any vertue which is hid in them as do the prests of the Romish church who by ignorance and their superstitious opinion thinke to haue consecrated and transubstanciated the bread and wyne which is in their Masse by the vertue of fiue wordes Hoc est enim corpus meum breathed and pronounced vpon the elementes Wherein they are no lesse deceiued than abused bicause the woord which is the formall cause of the sacrament is not a word sayd and spoken simply but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God don by the Minister according to his cōmaundement and a predication of the death of Iesus Christ wyth the fruite of the same by the which the heartes of the hearers are raysed into contemplation and meditation of his benefites and theyr faith kyndled and enflamed in his loue And where this is not done as is sayd we must not thynke that the elementes are sacramentes as S. Augustine teacheth vppon S. Iohn 80. Treatise in these termes from whence comes this vertue to the water that in touching the bodie it washeth the heart but that it is done by the woord not bicause it is pronounced but by reason it is beléeued this woorde is the woorde of faith which we preache sayeth the Apostle which is if we confesse with our mouthe that Christe is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God hath raised him from the deade we shal be saued wherin continuing his matter he addes in the end these woordes this woorde of faithe which we preache is the same without doubt by which baptisme is consecrated to the end it may clense and washe The ministers inferre héere before two things the one that the woorde of Consecration is not as is saide a simple pronunciation but a publike and manifest declaration of the institution and ordinance with all the misterie of the deathe of Iesus Christe The other that the signes and Elementes consecrated are not chaunged in
respecte of their nature and substance but onely touching the vse and signification and that only during the Action in which they serue For to consecrate the signes as the water in Baptisme and the breade and wine in the supper is no other thing than to assigne and make them serue to a holy and sacred vse by the publike declaration of the ordinance of God made to that ende and not to chaunge them touching their nature and substance the which vanishing and being made nothing there shoulde be no more signe nor by consequence any sacrament So that euen as the water in the Baptisme after the Consecration remaines water without that his nature or substance be in any thing chaunged or altered so the bread and wine in the supper touching their substance remaine after the consecration suche as they were afore for there should be no Analogie nor correspondencie betwéene the signe and the thing signified For what comparison conformitie is there betwene the accidents of the bread and the truthe of the body of Iesus Christe séeing that the accidents of the breade as the whitenesse and roundnesse destitute of their substance as the Sophisters doe falsly imagine coulde not nourishe or sustaine the bodie and by that meane should not be proper to signifie that the fleshe and bloude of Iesus Christe nourishe and sustaine oure soules So that we must hold this for resolute that the bread and wine remaine in their substance the same being clearely verified by Iesus Christe who speaking of that which he gaue to his Disciples to drinke in the Supper calles it specially the fruite of the Vine Which can not be referred to the accidentes but is necessarily to be vnderstanded of the wine in his proper substance As also by that which S. Paule saythe calling the Elementes of the Supper Breade and Wine thrée seuerall times yea after they were Consecrated Like as also he wrytes elsewher we that are many are one bread and one body bicause we participate all of one lofe wherein he teacheth vs there by his comparison of the lofe that euen as it is made of many graines so wrought and mingled togsther that they can not be distinguished or seperated one from an other euē so also ought the faithful in the Church to be so knit and vnited togither in one selfe body as they may séeme to be membres one of another This comparison wold be altogither foolishe out of purpose if the bread which we eate in the supper were not true bread Gelasius Bishop of Rome wryting against Eutichus saithe that the sacramente which we take is a thing Diuine and yet forbeares not to be a substance and nature of breade and wine Theodoret also in his first Dialogue vseth these propre termes the Lorde hath honored with the name of his bodie and of his bloud the visible signes which represente them without chaunging their nature but adding only grace to the nature The same Author in his second Dialogue speaking also of the breade and wine distributed in the supper saythe that after the sanctification these misticall signes forsake not their nature for they remaine in their proper substance kinde and figure by meane whereof they are seene and handled after the Consecration neither more or lesse then afore S. Iohn Chrysostome wryting to the Monke Cesarius saythe in the Supper we call breade that which is there present afore it be sanctified And after the sanctification by Gods grace and meane of the minister it hath no more the name of breade but of the body of our Lord yet the nature of bread remaines there By the places aforesaide as well of the holy scripture as Auncient Doctors and others which mighte be yet alleaged for this matter it appeares that the breade and wine in the supper remaine alwayes as hath bene said in their proper nature and substance after the Consecration as well as before wherein it néede not to be doubted that the Faith of the auncient Churche hath not alwayes bene so and that Transubstantitiaon was neither established nor holdē for an Article of Faithe in the Romishe Church vntil the time of Innocent the thirde To withstande and reiecte all that hathe bene sayde touching the nature and substance of the signes which remaine after the Consecration suche as be aduersaries to this Doctrine alleage ordinarily the woordes of Iesus Christe speaking of the breade in the institution of his supper take eate this is my bodie And staying vpon the proper and natural signification of the termes they defend obstinately that the substance of bread is vanished in the Consecration and that there remaines no other substance except that of the bodie of Iesus Christe The reason of this is that they obserue not the Figures and manner of spéeches which are ordinarily vsed in the holy Scripture when and as often as there is Question of the matter of the sacramentes For then the name of the things signified is ordinarily attributed to the signes which represent and signifie them as the name of the alliance is attributed to the Circumcision bicause it was assigned to signifie and ratifie it The Lambe by like reason is called the passage and Baptisme washing of regeneration and that not bicause they be things like to the signes and mysteries signified by them But for the conformitie that is betweene them The signes as S. Augustine him selfe dooth say take oftentymes the name of the things which they represent So that the error procéedes in that they take and vnderstand the manners of spéeches figured as if they were propre and naturall That this spéeche take and eate this my body is figuratiue it appeares by that which our Lord Iesus Christe addes after of the cuppe saying this cuppe is the newe Testament in my bloud which is shed for you Héere he calles the cuppe Testament and new aliance in his bloude wherin we must necessarily confesse that there is figure and that with oute it the saide place could not be wel vnderstand nor aptly interpreted For it is a thing manifest that an aliance which is a contrary couenant betwéene parties made and cōceiued vnder a certaine promisse and woorde is not the wine and yet it is so called by figure bicause the wine which is distributed in the supper is as the seale by the which the saide aliance is sealed and the faithe of the same confirmed By suche or like manner must we also vnderstand and expoūd this sentence this is my body the same being as much to say as this is the newe Testament in my bodie which is deliuered for you For as by the effusion of his blud the new Testament was ratified so was it also by the death of his body we néede not searche better interpretation of the words of Iesus Christe than Iesus Christe himselfe For it is certaine that that which he saide of the cuppe is as a glose and cleare and familiare exposition of that which he sayd of
to the sacrifice which they pretend of the body and blood of Iesus Christ where it is sayd for the which we offer thee or who offer thee c. That which we say of the sacrificature that it is common to al the church to offer to God sacrifice of thankes giuyng ought not to be slauÌ„derously interpreted as though we wold confuse the ecclesiastical ministery wyth the sayd sacrificature and by that meane reuerse and trouble the order of the church giuing to euery one an autority power to gouerne it For we know well inough that vocations are different amongst the people of God and that it is necessarye that in the church ther be Pastors Doctors with other Ministers as Deacons and Auncients to guide it well and edifie as well by continual preaching of the word as carefull execution of other thinges concerning their charges onelye wee must distinguish those vocations which are particular from the sacrificature aforesaid which ought to be generall and common as is sayd to all the Church Such now as with diligence wyll obserue the matters here before discoursed proued by Gods word may easely see iudge that the Masse as it is celebrate at this day in the Romish church is the whole corruption reuersement of the institution of the supper which Iesus Christ hath established and left in his church so that at this daye it is impossible to finde or discerne one onely mark of his first ordinance For of a sacrament which Iesus Christ left in his church to edâ—y and entertain it in a present memory of his death they haue made a sacrifice by the which the remembrance of the same Iesus Christ is altogether buried defaced Wherin there is this thing specially maruelous and no lesse worthy to be wel noted that the which appertained not but to the sonne of God impossible to any to do but to himselfe as to sacrifice for synne to reconcile men vnto God to appease his wrath towards them to intercesse for fauour and helpe of them the Prests attribute to themselues And that which is lawfull coÌ„maunded yea possible for them to do as to solemnise the memory of Iesus Christ in taking breaking distributing and eating the bread and drinking the wine to declare his death they haue altogether left So that as we may say that whatsoeuer Christ did in the supper and commaunded to do the Priestes do nothing at all euen so what he did on the crosse and commaunded man neuer to do it the Priests vndertake and seeke to do it The errors and abuses aswel of transubstanciation as of sacrificature and sacrifice expiatory and the repeticion of the same which be the principall partes and as it were the groundes of the Masse haue bene heretofore confuted and sufficieÌ„tly ouerthrown as wel by Gods word as other reasons here alledged in the declaratioÌ„ of the parts of that supper And now ther restes no more to batter wholy this Idol but to shew that the residue of the Masse is no better stuffe nor better grounded in Gods word For the adoration which is there done to the bread and wine is an idolatry condemned and cursed of god And it is not likely to be true that Iesus Christ instituting the supper had not ordained it S. Paule reciting this as he had receiued it of the Lord had not taught it and that the auncient church had omitted it if it had bene a thing wherin God might haue bene any way honored Besides the seperation of the Priest from the people is directly contrary to the article of faith of the Communion of the church and contrary to the purpose end for the which the supper was ordained the same tending to confirme and entertaine the societie that ought to be betwene the faythfull and bynde them alwayes more strayghtly one to another So that as it cannot be more rightly tearmed than a presumption intollerable and a manyfest disdayne of the rest of Gods people So that whiche the Doctors haue alledged to excuse and couer such a sacriledge is no lesse vaine and friuolous which is that the Masse of the Priestes doth not forbeare to be good not withstanding the assistants wyl not communicate ther. For first they are forbidden to eate alone in the supper and there is no supper where is no communion as S. Paule teacheth rebuking the Corinthians for departing one froÌ„ an other in the celebration of their supper When saith he you assemble your selues together it is not to eate the supper of the Lord séeing wheÌ„ ye come to eating euery one aduaunceth to take it particularlye Therefore vpon the end of the chapter teaching them what forme to vse therein he sayth therefore my brethren when you assemble to eate tary one for an other Besides it happeneth often times that in their Masse there is none but the Priest and a litle Clarke to aunswer him whom they wyll not take to communicate with them Also howe can they excuse the Masses which are soong in Monasteries wher the people are defended to communicate with the Moonkes that celebrate them yea it is ordinarelye séene in great parishes in Paris and elswhere that when the people communicate they are seperate from the Prests who doing their businesse a part disdayne to eate and coÌ„municate at one table with them And what coÌ„munion is there betwene the Priestes and the people séeing that in place to breake in the assemblye one selfe loafe to the ende that all participating therein shoulde by that meane be the more straightly conioyned and knyt in one selfe body euerye one hath his owne a part the Priest a greater and the people one somewhat lesse Séeing also the Chalice is in no sort distributed Furthermore what indeuor is vsed by the prests to inuite and exhorte the people to comunicate wyth them yea euen the Bishops who at this day hold it as a matter of shame to communicate with Artisans and other people of meane condition For conclusion if the Doctors had well considered the customes of the auncients who caused to go out of the place wher the Communion was done the Catachumeni and others not prepared to communicate And likewise if they had remembred the doctrine of S. Iohn Chrisostome shame would haue forbid them to defend such an abuse and impietie as is that of their Masse Wherin to the ende the people shal not rest ignorant in the opinion of that holy Doctor we wyl here deuide it word by word It is in vayne that the dayly oblatioÌ„ is done it is in vayne that we remayne at the aulter ther is no body that Communicates there I say not this to the ende you Communicate in any fashion but to the ende you make your selues woorthy of it Arte thou not woorthy to Communicate no more art thou to pray A little after he saythe further if any were called to a banket and washed his handes and being set at the
other Auncientes teache vs clearely the manner howe to make our profite of the Faithe wée haue in the Omnipotencie of God which is in referring it to his Will and iudging his Will by his Woorde and not by false imaginations whiche either our sprites maye conceiue or others woulde propone to vs as Sathan did to Iesus Christe whom he wente aboute to induce to throwe him selfe headlong vnder a vaine truste to be succoured by the Omnipotency of God. And likewise the Monarchians who vnder the colour and pretence of Gods almightinesse which thei gathered of other myracles would proue establish their Heresies and take away the personal distinction which is betwéene the Father and the Sonne saying that God being almighty might by that reason make him selfe Father and Sonne altogether There be also Anabaptistes in these later times who vnder a vaine assurance they repose in Gods almightinesse which hope that he can nourish them as he did the byrdes will not incline to trauel Many other such like or greater inconueniences may happen to al those who hauing such wandring dispersed thoughts of the omnipotency of God would not restraine nor refer them to his wil which we see is also happened to the Doctors who seeking to measure Gods almightinesse rather by their imaginations thaÌ„ by his wil woord are as S. Paule saith become vaine in their discourse their harts forsaken of vnderstanding are fillrd with darkenesse And as in seeking to behold the maiesty of God without the limits boundes which he hath appointed in his word they are becom ouerwhelmed engulphed in his glory so thei are also fallen into the which thei touched in their own resolution that bicause they haue not taken Goddes Woorde for theire guide nor followed the Pathes and footesteppes of his Holy Spirite they are swarued from Faythe whiche contrary to the opinion of the Doctours is not defaced nor reuersed by the consideration of creatures woorkes of God which are as mirrours of his glory and Diuinitie if not that by the same wée might be turned from the promisses of God by the which wée are assured of his wil and his Omnipotencie which doothe warrante and assure to vs the effectes and accomplishmentes of this his Holy will which maye be clearely seene and obserued in those that were sent by Moyses to espie and knowe the Lande of the Chananites twoo of the which Iosua and Caleb could neuer be drawne from the truste they had put in their God bicause that turning their mindes from the consideration of all such thinges as mighte kindle doubte in them as from the strength and munition of Townes the numbers force weapons and experience of the Countrie men they fixed their mindes vpon the onely remembraunce and contemplation of the promisses whiche God had made them where of the contrary others forgetting the saide promisses and considering nothing but what they sawe afore their eies fell and made to fal all the people with them into this cursed and damnable infidelitie for the which they were so graeeuously punished in the Deserte and shut out of the entry and ioy promised by God to their Auncestours And in the example of Abraham whose Faithe remained firme and stable chiefly by the consideration of the promise and will of God as S. Paule saith so that the consideration of Goddes Omnipotencie comes after to susteine and accompany that which he had of the promisse By these examples wée may sée what daunger there is to departe and fall from neuer so litle the woorde of God by which wee are guided to the knowledge of his Will and by the knowledge of his Will wée are drawne to the consideration and iudgemente wee oughte to haue of his Omnipotencie For wante whereof the Doctoures are fallen into the errours and madde fansies proponed to vs in their laste resolution that the Body of Iesus Christe at one instant may be in diuers places which as it is contrary to the faith we ought to haue and holde constantly of the wisdome prouidence and eternall truthe of God So likewise it is against the faith we ought to haue of the humanitie of our lord Neither doth that serue any thing to proue and coÌ„firme their error which they alleage chiefly of S. Ierome againste Vigilantius where his speeche importes no other matter than that the soules of the holy ones are inclosed in a certaine prisone as Vigilantius dreamed but doe accompanie the Lambe where so euer he goeth neither that which they alleage of S. Augustine in his Booke of the care we ought to haue of the deade séeing in the same Booke he himselfe confesseth that he standes doubtfull of that which the Doctoures assure and muche lesse the three authorities alleaged of S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ambrose and S. Augustine whose sentences ought to be vnderstande of the sacrament and not of the thing signified by the sacrament as we hope to vnfolde at large in the next conference We maruel much that the Doctors draw backe thus and will not enter but vnwillingly into the conference of their Masse to defende it as also of the supper celebrated in the reformed Churches to impugne it For seeing they holde it as the principall grounde of their Religion and propone it as a meane to saluation to all the world therefore in respecte not to be found seducers or light to beléeue or teach a thing which is not certaine nor well assured they ought to stand continually furnished with reasons bothe to proue and defend readily that which they beleeue and teache and also to conuince suche as would denie it But héere the worlde may discerne what is a wicked conscience who being feareful eschâ—es alwayes the light combate it is long since we haue vrged them with importunities to enter into conference of these two pointes and the rather to induce them to it we haue alleaged that it was the ende and purpose why the assembly was erected and that the Dutchesse of Buyllon in whose respect the companie mette had required it publikely once or twice like as also for oure partes we had often proâ—essed not to come thither in other regarde than to satisfie the Duchesse in that point and not to be examined by the Doctors as they falsly pretende For we delite not to go to such Doctors to be examined to be priests as also to be taught in pointes of religion and to knowe the truthe we would not choose suche maisters nor haunte their schooles to suche ende Notwithstanding all which declarations repeated so often by vs yet the Doctoures haue alwayes hitherto deferred to conferre of the sayde pointes exspecting as is most likely some occasion to dissolue and ende the said conference afore there be any beginning to speake of it albeit if they were ledde with any zeale to Gods honoure and the edifying of his churche they oughte to enforce by al their meanes that these two pointes mighte be wholy reuealed and resolued whether
in fortifying and confirming the faith on their partes or to draw vs and our side from our erroure as they pretende for there is no greate néede as nowe to dispute of Saintes of Purgatorie of Pilgrimages and other like pointes in regarde of the which the moste parte of the worlds at this day is setteled and cleared so that as well the Doctoures as we oughte principally to insist vppon the two pointes and to laboure with them to make them cleare and intelligible to euery one and not to vse sophistries and cauillations to darken them and so entertaine the simple in their ignorance which is the whole indeuor of the doctors who hauing set spéeche mater lay aside our Articles proponed to them in their last Aunswers in order and good Methode and put out confusedly certaine question 's gathered of their schole diuinitie as to wrappe vs more and more in that matter resisting heerein as they haue alwayes hitherto that which they haue so many times protested which is to examine the confession of the reformed Churches of the which notwithstanding they haue not handled one only point in all the conference wherby as they haue so stil they do declare euidently their distrust to be able to fight againste a truthe so cleare and apparant as is that which is proponed in the saide Confession An Answere to the Preface of the Doctoures Questions THe Doctoures in their Preface and afore they propone their Questions call the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Churches a banket prophane and polluted wherin without either shame or feare they firste blaspheme Iesus Christe which hath instituted it and is the Originall Author and then condemne the Apostles of impietie which haue celebrate and taughte it with all the Auncient Churche folowing and obseruing whilest shée dwelte in purenesse the forme and manner which the Euangelists and Apostles had taught left by their writings But we would gladly require those our maisters to note particularely wherein we may violate the institution ordinance of Iesus Christ and leaue his example and the Apostles in the celebration of the supper For when we goe about to celebrate it we assemble first all the churche as Christ did his Apostles and disciples where after confession of sinnes made publikely to be vnderstande in the name of all we pronounce a Sermon to the people wherin according to the grace facultie which God hath giuen vs we declare the causes occasions purpose vse points and effects of the holy supper the rather to raise vp the hearts of the people to consider the incomprehensible charitie which the father hathe shewed to his Churche seeing in hir fauor and to saue hir he spared not his propre sonne but cōmitted him to a cruel death accompanied with a cursse to the ende that euery one reuoluing in his minde so great a grace mercy might not onely be warmed kindled in Gods loue but also abhorring the vnthankfulnesse rebellions faultes sinnes which he hathe committed against his maiestie might with grudge and displeasure against them go thorow himself betweene the armes of his sonne stretched vpon the crosse to the end to abolish them wholly and generally and so with faith penance to prepare himself worthily to come to the table of the Lord receiue the benefits which are there administred this sermon being don the minister directing his face to the people recites with a loud voice the institution ordinance of the supper with a bréefe and distincte declaration of the same he then denounceth to all suche as be not sufficiently instructed and catechised that that is no place to present themselues to and likewise to suche as be Excommunicate or attainted of any sinnes and slaunderous crimes for the which they haue not satisfied to the Church to abstain as not to pollute the Lords table After all which he goeth to the table where hauing taken bread he giues thankes to God breakes and distributes it to the people that are assembled and so after presentes the cuppe to all suche as communicate the which being done he yeldes thankes to God and geues leaue to the people And thus folowing in all respectes the Example and rule giuen by Iesus Christe we can not imagine whereuppon the Doctoures can grounde their saying and sentence of the supper as to call it a feast prophane and polluted nether can wee gather what it is that they eyther coulde or wold reprehend in all our action vnlesse peraduenture they woulde chalenge taxe vs bicause we haue no Albes stoles fannes crosses holy water banners iackets lightes incense belles and singing in an vnknowne tongue musike organes holy linnen altares and clarkes to answere cum spiritu tuo or peraduenture because wée haue no direct words to the bread and wine which are without eares as the inchanters haue nor crosse and signes nor leuation of the breade and wine to the ende to make them be worshipped and lastly bicause wee vse not such like toyes inuented by men and drawne partly from the Iewishe and partly from the Pagane order in the obseruation of which things we should make great conscience as being but Idolatries and superstitions by the which the purenesse and integritie of christian religion is wholly spoiled and corrupte An Answere to the questions proponed by the Doctoures touching the Supper TO Aunswere the first question we say that the sacrament considered in his perfection consistes in three things whereof the one is the Elemente which Ireneus calles an earthly thing an other the thing signified named by the same Author a celestiall thing the third is the woord by the which the earthly thing is deputed or assigned to signifie the heauenly thing and to assure suche of the exhibition of the same as with faith present themselues to receiue it To Aunswere the second Question we say that the ordinance of God contained in his word and declared by his minister according to his commaundement is the woord necessary with the Element to constitute the Sacrament and not only the secrete and base pronunciation of certaine woordes not vnderstanded addressed to the Elementes nor any vertue that lies hid in them For Answer to the third Article we say that by the woord aforesaide the signes are changed not touching the nature or in respecte of the substance but only in regard of the vse and that only during the Action in the which they serue Touching the .iiij. question we Answere that the breade and wine which were common before the Action of the supper be consecrated in the supper that is deputed by the word aforesaide and ordinance of God declared by the minister to a holy and sacred vse which is to represent and exhibite the things signified by them This Aunswere to the fourth satisfieth also the fifth question To the sixth question we Aunswer that in the supper the faithfull doe not onley receiue the giftes and graces of Iesus Christe as