sectaryes of our tyme do follow him in that assertion then can they haue no ground or certainty this way but each man and woman must seeke other grounds and proofes and stand vpon their owne iudgements for triall of the same which how well the most part of people can do being eyther yonge simple vnlearned or otherwayes so busyed in other matters as they cannot attend thervnto euery man of meane discretion will consider and consequently they must needs be said both to liue and dye vvithout any ground of their faith at all but proper opinion and so perish euerlastingely 9. The famous Doctor S. Augustine handleth this matter in a speciall booke to his frend Honoratus deceaued by the Manichies as himselfe also sometymes had byn and he intituleth his booke De vtilitate credendi of the profitt that commeth to a man by beleeuing the Church and points of faith therin taught without demaundinge reason or proofe therof which the Manichies derided and said that they required nothinge to be beleeued of their followers but that which first should be proued to them by good proofe and reason and not depend only of mens creditt but the holy Father scorneth this hereticall bragg and oftentation of theirs and commendeth highly the contrary custome of simple beleeuinge vpon the creditt of the Catholike Church for that otherwise infinite people should haue no faith at all and exhorteth his frend Honoratus to take the same course first to beleeue and after to seeke the reason His discourse is this Fac nos nunc primum quaerere cuinam Religioni animas nostras c. Suppose that we now first of all did seeke vnto what Religion we should commit our soules to be purged and rectified without all doubt we must begin with the Catholike Church for that she is the most eminent now in the world there being more Christians in her at this day then in any other Church of Iewes and Gentills put togeather And albeit amongst these Christians there may be sects and heresies and all of them would seeme to be Catholiks and do call others besides themselues heretiks yet all graunt that yf we consider the whole body of the world there is one Church amongst the rest more eminent then all other more plentifull in number as they which know her do affirme more sincere also in truth but as concerninge truth we shall dispute more afterward now yt is sufficient for them that desire to learne that there is a Catholike Church which is one in yt selfe whervnto diuers heretiks do feigne and diuise diuers names wheras they and their sects are called by peculiar names which themselues cannot deny wherby all men that are indifferent not letted by passion may vnderstand vnto what Church the name Catholike which all parts desire pretend is to be giuen 10. Thus S. Augustine teachinge his frend how he might both know and beleeue the Catholike Church and all that shee taught simply and without asking reason or proofe And as for knowing and discerning her from all other Churches that may pretend to be Catholike we heare his marks that she is more eminent vniuersall greater in number and in possession of the name Catholike The second that she may be beleeued securely and cannot deceaue nor be deceaued in matters of faith he proueth elswhere concluding finally in this place Si iam satis tibi iactatus videris c. Yf thou dost seeme to thy selfe now to haue byn sufficiently tossed vp and downe amonge sectaryes and wouldst putt an end to these labours and tormoyles follow the way of Cath. discipline which hath flowen downe vnto vs from Christ by his Apostles and is to flow from vs to our posterity 11. This then is the iudgement and direction of S. Augustine that a man should for his first ground in matters of faith looke vnto the beleefe of the greatest most eminent Church of Christendome that hath endured longest embraceth most people hath come downe from our fore-fathers with the name of Catholike not only among her owne professors but euen among her enemyes Iewes infidells and heretiks and so is termed held by them in their common speach as the said Father in diuers others places declareth at large Which rule of direction yf we will follow about these three articles of faith now proposed the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the masse yt is easily seene what ground we haue for their beleefe in this kind of proofe so highly esteemed by S. Augustine which is the authority of the vniuersall Cath. Church For that when Luther and his followers began to oppose themselues in our dayes no man can deny but that our beleefe in these articles was generally receaued ouer all Christendome as well Asia and Africa where so euer Christians be as Europe and so vpward tyme out of mynd neither can any beginning be assigned to these doctrines in the Cath. Church but only a certayne definition and determination of some Councells about the name of Transubstantiation as after shal be declared 12. Now then hauinge found out this first ground which S. Augustine and other Fathers do make so great accoumpt of which is the authority and beleefe of that Church that generally is called Catholike Yf we passe further and see what grounds this Church had or hath to admytt the same which yet is not needfull or possible to all sortes of men for that only can be done by the learneder sort we shall find that she hath such grounds as may conuince any man that is not obstinate and indurate to the contrary And first to begin with the article of the reall presence what ground proofe or Theologicall demonstration can there bee which the Cath. Church hath not for her beleefe in that high mistery which as it was to be one of the cheefest most sacred and admirable of Christian Religion so was yt meet that yt should be confirmed by all the principall wayes that any article of faith could or can be confirmed that is to say both by scriptures of the ould and new Testament and the true exposition therof by auncient Fathers that liued before this controuersie began with Sacramentaryeâ— by authority and tradition of the Apostles and their successors by testimony of auncient Fathers from age to age by consent and agreement practise and vse of the vniuersall Church by the concourse and approbation of almighty God with euident and infinite miracles by confession of the aduersaryes and other such generall heads of arguments which Catholike diuines do produce for this truth for iustifyinge the Churches faith therin 13. And out of the scriptures their demonstration is not single or of one sort only but in diuers manners as to the height and dignity of so diuine and venerable a mystery was conuenient For that out of the ould Testament they shew how yt was prefigured and prophesied and in the new both promised
to aduenture vpon so great a change in beleefe as this was after so many yeares being a Priest and Catholike Bishopp and offeringe sacrifice after the manner of the Catholike Church from the first day of our contreyes conuersion vnto th' end of K. Henryes raigne His motiues were as yow heare certayne places of the scripture which were only taken out of the Epistle to the Hebrues talkinge of Christs bloudy sacrifice on the crosse which was but one certayne places of the Fathers to witt two or three misvnderstood out of S. Augustine and one out of Fulgentius all which notwithstandinge proue nothinge for his purpose as after yow shall see declared in their place and turne And the selfe same Fathers haue so many other cleere places to the contrary as we will desire no better iudges for proofe of our Catholike cause then yf Ridley would remitt himselfe to these two Fathers iudgements by him cyted against vs for that both of them do professe themselues to be Priests and to offer externall sacrifice vpon the Altar as our Priests do now 27. Consider then how wise and constant a man Ridley was to leaue his ancient faith so generally receaued throughout all Christendome in his dayes and so many yeares practised by himselfe vpon two such motiues as are certayne places of scripture misvnderstood by himselfe and certayne testimonyes of Fathers that seemed to him to haue some difficulty Which Ieuity vvas so displeasaunt vnto almighty God as by the effects we see that wheras at the beginning he seemed to doubt vpon these two motiues leauinge other men to iudge therof he became by little and little to be so obstinately blinded at length therin as albeit some foure or fiue yeares after he were openly conuicted in disputations at Oxford as by his answers yow shall afterwards see yet was he content to burne for the same which was the highest degree of calamity that could fall vpon him in body and soule And thus much of him and his determination for the present Sixt Disputation §. 6. 28. In all the former disputations both at Oxford and Cambridge yow shall find nothinge of friar Martyn Bucer no not so much as that he is once named in all these conflicts about the blessed Sacrament And yet yow must remember that he was principall reader of diuinity in Cambridge at this tyme as Peter Martyr was in Oxford and therfore as the first place was giuen to the said Peter in Oxford so yt is likely that the same would haue byn to Martyn in Cambridge yf they had found him so pliable to their hands in his opinions about the Sacrament as the other was but in no case would he be induced as yet to accommadate himselfe therin and therfore had he not any part allowed him in this comedy eyther of defendant opponent disputer counselour moderator assistant or other office or imployment nay yt is thought that he incurred so great disgrace about this matter as he could willingly haue departed the realme againe as Bernardinus Ochinus vpon such like discontentment did from London had not the necessity of his woman and other impediments of pouerty letted him not knowinge well whither to goe as being expulsed from Argentina at his comming to England as before we haue shewed in the story of his life 29. Wherfore resoluinge himselfe at length to passe ouer this mortification and to giue our English Protestants some satisfaction though not in the points which they desired he thought it good after Ridleyes departure to defend certayne other paradoxes which Fox recordeth in these words Ouer and besides these disputations aboue mentioned other disputations vvere holden in Cambridge shortly after by Martyn Bucer vpon these conclusions followinge First that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach the regenerate all things necessary belonginge to saluation Secondly there is no Church on earth that erreth not as well in faith as in manners Thirdly we are so iustified freely of God that before our iustification yt is sinne and prouoketh Gods wrath against vs whatsoeuer good worke we seeme to do Then being iustifyed we do good works 30. These were Bucers conclusions which well I may call paradoxes for that euen in the common sense iudgement of euery meane capacity the falsity and absurdity therof is apparant For as touchinge the first though we graunt that the diuine books of scripture yf they were fewer then they are respectinge Gods holy prouidence are sufficient to teach both regenerate and not regenerate that beleeue the verity therof the true way of saluation and that the said diuine prouidence hath doth and will so prouide that albeit some parts of these we now haue should be lost as diuers others before haue byn yet should the remnant still be sufficient to that purpose with such other supplyes of Gods assistance as he would send yet to say as this man doth that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach all things belonginge to saluation yf by alone he will exclude all other helpes of tradition antiquity testimony of the Church interpretation of the Fathers direction of generall Councells and other like aydes yt is a most absurd paradox for neyther can we know which bookes are to be held canonicall nor what they teach truly sincerely nor what may be deduced out of them yf we remoue the former helpes And the case is as yf one of the Kings of our countrey goinge abroad as some did to Hierusalem or other forrayne warres and intending to be longe absent should leaue with his Councellors for their better gouernement certayne lawes wrytten with his owne hand other directions by word of mouth how to proceed interprett and vse them commaunding all men to obay them and that some troublesome people after many yeares continuance in their gouernement should appeale from them to the Kings wrytten lawes only prayinge the sufficiency therof for better colouâ—inge their pretence and suinge that yt were â— blott vnto the said lawes and to the Kings wisdome that made them to acknowledge any insufficiency at all in them for perfect direction of the common welth which lawes â—et themselues would expound as pleased them best for their owne purposes â—1 In this case who seeth not whervnto this practise tendeth and for what causes so great prayses are giuen to the sufficiency of these lawes vsed to make the praisers iudges of all and to exempt them from all controlment of others And the very same is seene in the other case of the scriptures which being written by the spiritt and fingar of God himselfe and deliuered vnto vs by the Church whose commission also and authority in the same scriptures is sett downe byndinge vs vnder dlamnation to heare her from age to age as the pillar and firmament of truth there stepp vp togeather diuers sorts of sectarves in all ages of this of ours Lutherans
Zuinglians Caluinists Anabaptists Trinitarians and the like chalenged by the said Church of disobedience and do all appeale ioyntly and seuerally from her to only scriptures praysinge highly the sufficiency and excellency therof and refusinge all other meanes eyther of tradition or ancient exposition for vnderstandinge of the sense and true meaninge And when we alleadge the Catholike Doctors and Pastors of euery age as spirituall Gouernours and Conselors vnder God in the Church for explaninge his diuine will and meaninge in this behalfe they refuse all and only will be interpreters and expositors themselues and this not only against the Catho Church which they ought to obay but one sect also against another for their particular opinions and diuersityes which by this meanes are made irreconciliable and indeterminable as experience teacheth vs. For when I pray yow will Luther Zuinglius or their followers come to any accord eyther with vs or amongst themselues by only canonicall scriptures expounded after each partyes particular spiritt iudgement and affection The like I may aske of Anabaptists Arrians English Protestants and Puritans or of any other Sectaryes that yow can name vnto me which neuer agreed by this way nor euer will And this is the first paradox of Martyn Bucer that only scriptures are sufficient to teach euery man 32. The second is yet worse yf worse may be to witt that there is no Church on earth which erreth not as well in faith as manners Which yf yt be so then erreth also in faith the true Church of Christ and is a lyinge Church and may lead vs into error and heresie And of this yt followeth againe that we can haue no certainty of any thinge in this life and that almighty God doth damne vs very vniustly for heresie wherinto we may be brought by his true Church and spouse which on the other side he hath commaunded vs to heare and obay vnder payne of damnation yt followeth also that S. Paul did falsely call the Church the pillar and firmament of truth for as much as yt may both deceaue and be deceaued Christs promise also was false when he assured his Church that he would be with her by his spiritt of truth vnto the worlds end and that the gates of hell should not prevaile against her All these absurdityes impossibilityes and impietyes do follow of this second paradox besides infinite others which any meane capacity may deduce of himselfe 33. The third paradox also is no lesse monstrous to common sense and reason then the two former to witt that vvhatsoeuer good worke any man doth or may seeme to doe before iustification a sinne and prouoketh Gods wrath But I would aske this new opiniatour or paradox-defender how he would answere to that of Exodus where yt is said of the Egyptian mid-wyues â— infidells no doubt quia timuerunt obstetrices Deum aedificauit illis domos God gaue them aboundant children for that vpon feare of offendinge almighty God they disobayed their King Pharao in sauinge the Hebrues children doth God vse to reward sinne or to prayse that which prouoketh his wrath Againe the Prophett Ezechiell sheweth vs how God did temporally reward Nabuchodonozor and his army with the spoyle of Egypt for that they had serued him faithfully in chastizinge of Tyrus And S. Hierome vpon that place hath these words By that Nabuchodonosor receaued this reward for his good worke we learne that gentills also yf they do any good thinge shall not leese their reward at Gods hands and how can God be said to reward that which offendeth him The Prophet Daniell also to the same Nabuchodonosor an infidell gaue this counsell peccata tua eleemosymis redime redeeme thy synnes with almes which he would neuer haue done yf yt had byn a synne prouoked Gods wrath to giue almes or to performe any such other morall vertue before iustification especially being styrred holpen thervnto by Gods especiall help which may be before iustification as Martyn Bucer in this paradox supposeth And lastly not to stand any longer in this which is of it selfe so euident I would aske friar Martyn whether Cornelius the centurion being yet a gentile did sinne and prouoke Gods wrath in prayinge and giuinge almes before his conuersion Yf he say yea as needs he must accordinge to his doctrine the text of scripture is against him for the Angell said vnto him Thy prayers and almes deeds haue ascended vp and haue byn called into remembrance in the sight of God Vpon which words S. Augustine in diuers of his works doth call the said almes-deeds of Cornelius before he beleeued in Christ Iustice and the gifts of God which he would neuer haue done yf they had byn synnes and prouoked Gods wrath as this new-fangled friar hath taken vpon him to defend 34. And this shal be sufficient for this sixt disputation of Martyn Bucer which is fiue tymes as much as Fox setteth downe of the same for that he relateth only the time and place of the said dispute togeather with the conclusions afore mentioned that Sedgewicke Yonge and â—erne were opponents to Bucer therin but all the rest he remitteth to a larger discourse at another tyme supplyinge the breuity of this Bucerian disputation with another dispute betweene custome and verity which he calleth A fruitfull dialogue gathered out saith Fox â—f the Tractations of Peter Martyr and other authors â—â— a certayne reuerend person of this realme teachinge all men not to measure Religion by custome but to try custome by truth c. â—5 And this was another diuise of those â—ayes of Innouations and noueltyes to dazell â—â—mple mens eyes as though Custome and Veriâ—â— the handmayd and maistresse were so fallen out that one impugned the other could not agree or stand togeather any longer and consequently custome and antiquity must needs â—ue place to nouelty the fraud and folly of which diuise may in very few words be disâ—ouered and their true frendshipp and agreement easily be declared yea their in separable â—â—herence to be such as in our case of the conâ—â—ouersie about the reall presence for in this â—â—int they are made to braule and full out they cannot possibly be separated For yf verity in this matter haue not antiquity and custome with yt yt is nouelty and by consequence not verity at all And on the otherside custome in points of Christian faith and beleefe yf yt be generall and of long tyme for otherwise yt cannot properly be called custome in the subiect we handle may not possibly be found in our Christian Church without verity for that otherwise the whole Church should vniuersally admitt a falsity continue yt by custome which to imagine were folly and madnesse yea most insolenâ— madnes yf vve beleeue S. Augustine whose words are Disputare contra id quod tota per orbeâ— frequentat Ecclesia insolentissimae insaniae est It is a most insolent
madnes to dispute against that which the whole Church throughout the world doth practice And he addeth in the same place though it be not coÌ„teined in the scriptures 36. Wherfore for Iohn Fox and his reuerenc maister Nicolas Ridley Peter Martyr and others to come out now with a dialogue or brauling altercation betweene custome and verity about the matter of the Sacrament and to seeke to sett them by the eares or make a diuorse betweene them for that custome had continueâ— from the beginning of our conuersion to that day without verity was a very simple and rediculous diuise worthy Iohn Fox his wiâ—â— and grauity for by this he confesseth in effect that custome and antiquity was against him wherof we in this matter do rightly also inferre verity I say in this matter concerninge Christian faith and beleefe receaued in the Church by custome and tradition of former ages which our sauiour Christ did promise to assist with his spiritt of truth whatsoeuer Fox or his fellowes may obiect or we admitt against Idolatry or other reprehensible customes of former tymes amongst the Iewes gentills nations contreyes and common-welthes different from the Christian Church all which had no such assurance of truth for beginninge and continuinge their customes as our Christian Church hath And so much of this feigned fight betweene custome and verity in Christian Religion whatsoeuer arguments of moment are alleaged in the combatt betweene them about the reall presence shal be afterward handled in their due places So as of this disputation and Martyn Bucers we shall make but one to witt the sixt Seauenth Disputation §. 7. 37. Hitherto are the publike disputations recorded by Fox to haue byn held by Protestants for establishinge and authorizinge their new religion vnder K. Edward and all within the compasse of one yeare to witt 1549. there ensue now foure other appointed some foure yeares after in the first of Q. Maryes raigne 1553. vvhich albeit they were vnder a Catholike gouernement yet were they for giuinge satisfaction only to Protestants of those dayes when Catholike Religion was to be restored to th' end that the other might see their owne leuity in changinge the same And the first of these disputations being the seauenth in order was held in the conuocation house at S. Paules Church in London begon as Fox saith vpon the 18. of October in the foresaid yeare and during for six dayes togeather The questions vvere the accustomed about the reall presence and Transubstantiation The manner of disputinge was not in forme or after any fashion of schoole but rather of proposinge doubts and answeringe the same for satisfaction of them that were not resolued and so much lesse then in the former was any thinge pursued to any point of triall Doctor VVeston deane of VVestminster was chosen prolocutor who protested in his preface as Fox saith that this conference vvas not held to call any points of Catholike Religion into doubt but to solue such scruples or doubts as any man might pretend to haue 38. This conuocation consisted for the greatest part of all those clergy-men that had borne rule in K. Edwards dayes exceptinge Cranmer Ridley Latymer and Rogers and I know not yf any other that were commytted before And the first point that was handled therin was about a certayne Caluinian Catechisme sett forth a little before vnder the name of that conuocation whervnto the prolocutor required subscriptions to testifie that yt was not sett forth by their consents meaninge as yt seemed therby to conuince Ridley or Crammer or both of false dealinge therin The second point was of subscribing to the reall presence whervnto all the whole house agreed saith Fox sauinge fiue or six to witt Maister Philips Deane of Rochester Maister Haddon Deane of Exceter Maister Philpott Archdeacon of VVinchester Maister Cheyney Archdeacon of Hereford Maister Elmour Archdeacon of Stow and one other whome he nameth not and by these were propounded all the doubts that were there discussed and as for the first two dayes there was nothinge done at all but a certaine communication The third day came the Lord great-master with the Earle of Deuonshire and diuers other noble men and Cheiney afterward Bishopp of Glocester who confessed the reall presence but not Transubstantiation proposed some doubts about the second point which we shall afterwards examine in their place The prolocutor appointed Doctor Moreman to aunswere him and the rest extempore wherby we may ghesse how substantiall a disputation yt was for that the defendant came nothinge at all prepared Phoâ—ipps also proposed some what about the reall presence Elmour and Haddon spake little vpon that day though the next day Elmour then Chaplaine to the Duke of Suffolke and after Bishopp of London read certayne authorityes but of a note-booke which he had gathered against the reall presence â—9 But of all other the most busy was Philpott both that day and the other followinge vauntinge and chalenginge the whole company to dispute Then quoth Philpott saith Fox I vvill speake playne English the Sacrament of the Altar which yee reckon to be all one with the masse is no Sacrament at all neyther is Christ any wise present in yt and this his sayinge he offered to proue before the vvhole house yf they listed to call him thervnto and before the Queens grace and her counsell and before the face of six of the best learned men of the house of the contrary opinion and refused none And yf I shall not be able quoth he to maintayne by Gods word that I haue said and confound those six which shall take vpon them to withstand me in this point let me be burned with as many sag gotts as be in London before the court-gates c. This was Philpotts vaunt and yet yf yee consider the poore arguments he brought forth in this conference which afterwards shal be discussed togeather with his fond answers that he gaue in his 15. or 16. seuerall examinations before the Bishopps of VVinchester London Chichester Bangor and others for so much payne was taken to saue him yow will say that his B. Gardiner had reason when he held him for more then halfe madd as in his story we haue related Consider also that his denying Christ to be present any wise in the Sacrament is much different from that yow heard Maister Perne affirme before by approbation of Maister Ridley the moderator that Christs body was truly wholy and verily in the Sacrament after a certayne propriety but these men must not be taken at their words 40. And finally the conclusion of all this conference with Philpott was that the prolocutor in the end seing him out of all reason to trouble the house layed two comaundements vpon him the first that he should not come thither any more vnlesse he came in gowne and typpett as the others came the second that he should not speake but
furious Circumcellians that vvere ready to murder men vpon zeale of their heresie 5. I lett passe another disputation vvhich the said Father had some 10. or 11. yeares after that by the order of Pope Zozimus of Rome in the Citty of Caesarea in Mauritania vvith one Emeritus a Donatist B. of that Citty all the vvhole people of the Citty togeather vvith diuers Bishopps being present but little good could be done vvith him his obstinacy vvas so great and peruerse The acts of that disputation are extant in S. Austen often mention therof is made by himselfe by Possidonius in his life And this for the Donatists 6. But vvith the Arrians I find the same Father to haue had sundry disputations also as namely once vpon the yeare of Christ 422. the Gouernour Bonifacius hauinge many Gothes in his campe vvho vvere of the Arrian sect they had also an Arrian Bishopp that gouerned them named Maximinus vvho in their opinion vvas very learned and therfore they made instance that he might dispute vvith S. Augustine vvhich the good Father accepted for he refused none and so they had their meetinge and disputation and the acts thereof are extant in his vvorks togeather vvith a certaine booke of his ovvne added thervnto for explication of diuers points vvherof these heretiks vvere vvont to vaunt aftervvard as though they had gott the victory vvhich happened to the same Father in another combatt held the very same yeare vvith one Conte Pascentius of the same Arrian sect vvho vvas cheefe fifchall or treasourer of the Emperor and most arrogantlie chalenged to dispute vvith S. Austen but yet in priuate vvithout notaryes in respect of the Emperiall lavves that did forbidd publike disputations in fauour of sects and heresies VVhich disputation S. Augustine accepted and the same vvas held priuatly in the presence of many noble and learned men but the heretikes vvould not yeld but rather published soone after as their fashion is that they had the victory vvhich S. Austen vvas forced to refute by many seuerall epistles and by settinge forth the disputation it selfe as yt is to be seene in his vvorks 7. And this may suffice for a tast of some disputations held at diuers tymes and in diuers countreyes vvith heretiks of sundry sects in the ancient Church And I might recite many more as that of Maximus a learned Catholike monke in Africa vvho vpon the yeare of Christ 645. held a very famous disputation against one Pyrrhus Archbishop of Constantinople a great pillar of those heretiks called Monothelits that held one only vvill and not tvvo to be in Christ our Sauiour vvhich disputation being made in the presence of many Bishopps and of the gouernour of that Country named Gregorius Patricius the hereticall Archbishopp vvas so confounded as he left his heresie vvent to Rome and gaue vp a booke of his pennance to Pope Theodorus and vvas receaued by him into the Catholike communion againe and that vvas the euent of that disputation 8. And not full 20. yeares after this againe to vvitt vpon the yeare 664. vvas that great disputation also in England betvvene the English and scottish Bishops about the obseruation of Easter in the presence of tvvo Kings Oswyn and Egfrid his sonne Kinges of Northumberland and of the Mercians the cheefe disputers on the Scottish Bishopps parte vvere Colman and Cedda and of the English Agilbertus Bishopp of the VVestsaxons and VVilfrid and the issue of this disputation vvas that Kings Osvvyn vvas conuerted to the vnion of the Roman Church and caused the vse thereof to be practized in his countrey 9. And so vve see by these examples and many more that might be alleaged that disputations in points of Religion are sometymes necessary do much good vvhen they are taken in hand vvith equall and due conditions and conuenient lavves for indifferency in tryinge out the truth for that othervvayes they may be pernicious haue byn refused by anciēt Fathers as vve read of one reiected by Saint Ambrose in Milayne vpon the yeare of Christ 286. vvhen Auxentius the Arrian-Bishopp being puffed vp vvith pride arrogancy by the fauour of the Empresse Iustina infected vvith the same heresy had not only prouoked S. Ambrose to publike disputation but had further procured that Valentinian the yong Emperour being yet a child not baptized but only Cathecumenus did make a publike edict to commaund the said disputations to be held vpō such a day in his publike court or consistorie before himselfe the said Empresse certaine learned Pagans and Ievves being appointed for iudges in that matter But S. Ambrose by the counsell of diuers Bishopps gathered togeather vvith him refused to come to those disputatiōs vvryting a booke to the Emperour Valentinian for his excuse shevvinge the iniustice and vnequality of the order and of those tymes and persuadinge him to recall the said lavv And yf he vvould haue that controuersie in religion betvveene them and the Arrians treated againe he should follovv therin the excellent example of his predecessor Constantine the great vvho suffered Priests and Bishopps only to handle that matter in the Councell of Nice and so vvas this disputation broken of presently there happened a thing of great admiratiō saith Paulinus in the life of S. Ambrose vvhich vvas that a certaine principall learned Arrian acerrimus disputator inconuertibilis ad fidem Catholicam being a most eager disputer and esteemed not possible to be conuerted to the Catholike faith being deceaued at it seemeth of his hope and expectation to dispute in this conflict vvent to the Church to heare at least vvhat Ambrose could say out of the pulpit in his sermons vvhere seing an Angell to speake as it vvere in his eare he vvas by that miracle not only conuerted to be a Catholike but became also a most vehement defendor of that faith against the heretiks 10. To returne then to our purpose of disputation yt is of great moment hovv and in vvhat tyme and place and vvith vvhat lavves and conditions they are made vvherof yovv vvill see the proofe and experience also in these ten that heere vve are to present vvherof six being held vnder the gouernemēt of Protestants and 4. vnder Catholike magistrates yovv shall see complaints on both sides of inequality vsed but he that shall read and consider them in differently and vvithout passion euen as they are sett dovvne by Fox himselfe for vve could gett no other records therof for the present he shall easily see no small differences to appeare For that the disputatiōs both at Oxford and Cambridge in K. Henryes dayes vvere only certaine ostentations of light skyrmishes a farre of so vainly and fondly performed as they haue no substance in them at all And so he vvill see that shall read these examinations The other vnder Queene Mary though the first of them in the conuocation-house vvherin Protestants only vvere opponents
true throughout England wherein concurred also the vvhole Christian vvorld abroad from the tyme before by me prefixed of our first conuersion and more euen from the Apostles dayes neyther could any tyme be appointed or memory brought forth when how or by whome the said doctrines had their beginnings in England or els where which accordinge to S. Augustines rule and diuers particular demonstrations layd downe by vs before in the first part of the Treatise of three Conuersions doth euidently couuince that they came from Christ and his Apostles themselues vvhich ought to be sufficient though no other proofes of Scriptures Fathers Doctors and Councells could be shewed in particular for the same as may be almost infinite and some yow shall heare a little after in this Chapter 4. And as for the second question of Transubstantiation though yt be but a certayne appendix of the first about the manner how Christ is really in the Sacrament as before hath byn shewed was not so particularly declared and defined by the Church in this very tearme of Transubstantiation vntill some 400. yeares gone in the generall Councell of Lateran as neyther the doctrine of homusion or consubstantiality was vntill 300. yeares after Christ in the Councell of Nice neyther the dignity of theotoces wherby the blessed Virgin is called the Mother of God vntill the Councell of Ephesus aboue 400. yeares after Christ yet was the same doctrine euer true before from the beginninge and vttered by the Fathers in other equiualent words speaches of changes and Transmutations of natures conuersions of substances and the like and when there had not byn such other euident proofes extant for the truth therof yet the consent and agreement of so great and vniuersall a Councell of Christendome as the said Lateran was wherin both the Greeke and Latyn Church agreed and after great and longe searche by readinge disputinge prayinge conferringe of Scriptures and Fathers and other such meanes concluded this doctrine to be truth Yf there had byn I say nothinge els for English Catholiks to rest vpon in this point but the generall consent and agreement of so learned holy and venerable an assembly yt might iustly seeme sufficient in the sight of an indifferent or reasonable man to weygh and ouerweygh against the particular iudgements of all the innouators of any age to the contrary and so no maruayle though they stood so earnest against that innouation this being the state of the controuersie on their part 5. But now for the Protestants the state of their question was farre different For first wheras Martyn Luther about the 9. or 10. yeare of K. Henryes raigne had begon some noueltyes about the second and third question of Transubstantiation and Sacrifice holding still the first of the reall presence for firme and that three of his first schollers Oecolampadius Carolstadius and Zuinglius full sore against his will takinge occasion of his innouations had added others of their owne about the said first question denyinge the reall presnce though in different sorts and that after them againe Iohn Caluyn a French-man had diuised a third manner of beleefe therin not a little different from them all about the said doctrine both affirminge denyinge the reall presence in different manner and sound of words yt seemed good to our English Protestants at that tyme or the more part therof to choose the last and newest opinion of all and to establish yt by parlament banishinge ther vpon the ould faith that euer vntill that day had byn held and beleeued in our countrey as well by themselues as others 6. And thus came in the first new Religion â—nto England by some shew of publike authority which being sett forth with so great applause and ostentation both of publike disputations colloquyes conferences lectures preachings exposition of scriptures and consent of Parlament as yow haue heard did partly by this outward shew and ostentation of authority partly by the pleasinge face of â—ouelty yt selfe and sweet freedome that yt brought from all former Ecclesiasticall discipline so infect and enchaunt the harts iudgements affections of diuers of the common people and some also of the learned but the â—ighter and more licentious sort as afterward vvhen Q. Mary came to take accoumpt and vvould recall them againe to the station vvhich they had forsaken they chose rather of â—ride and obstinacy to suffer any thinge yea â—o dye and go to the fire then to renounce these new fancyes once fastened vpon them â—nto which pertinacity the fame of the forsaid Protestants disputations did not a little animate them for that yt was giuen out generally and so doth Fox stand stiffely in the same that the Sacramentaryes had the vpper hand in all as well against the Lutherans in the first question of reall presence as against the Catholiks in that and all the rest vvhich bragg how vayne yt was will appeare after when we come to examine their arguments in particular 7. But yet before we come to that two other points seeme expedient to be performed for better direction of the readers vnderstandinge in these high misteryes of our faith the first to see what sure grounds the Catholiks had and haue at this day to stand firme and immoueable in their old beleefe about these articles notwithstandinge any plausible or deceytfull arguments of sense and reason that may be brought against them secondly certayne obseruations wherby the force or rather fraud of hereticall obiections may be discouered which so beguyled many simple people in Q. Maryes dayes and made them runne headlonge to their perdition the first of these points I shall handle in this Chapter the second in the next that followeth Catholike groundes of these three articles and first of the reall presence §. 1. 8. The first ground that Catholike men haue of these and all other misteryes of Christian faith that are aboue the reach of common sense and reason is the authority of the Catholike Church by which they were taught the same as points of faith reuealed from God And this is such a ground as we see by experience that the most part of people of what Religion soeuer being yonge or vnlearned can yeld no other reason in effect why they beleeue this or that article of theire faith but for that they receaued the same from their Church and teachers therof being not able themselues to searche out any other grounde therof yea the most learned of all from their infancy tooke all vpon this assurance only of their Church which Church yf they held to be of infallible authority so as she can neither be deceaued nor deceaue as we do of the Catholike then should they rest firme sure in their opinion vpon this ground but yf they hould that all Churches may erre and bringe into error both in doctrine and manners as yow haue heard Martyn Bucer hold before in his Cambridge conclusions and most
day yet in the substance of the sacrifice they do as also in many other particular circumstances vsinge the words of oblation sacrifice victime signes singings blessings eleuations and other such rites which Protestants cannot abide And for the cannon and forme of our masse which is vsed at this day in the Latyn Church most parts therof are to be seene in S. Ambrose his books de Sacramentis and the whole order as now yt is hath endured without alteration from S. Gregory the first downeward wherof yow may see Alcuinus Amalarius VValfridus and other ancient authors in their books de diuinis officijs 53. By all which generall heads yow may easily see the multitude of testimonyes that may be alleaged out of the Fathers yf we should prosecute euery one of these in particular how great reason Martyn Luther had to except against them all or rather to defy them all when first he begaÌ„ to write against this sacrifice Hic non moramur saith he si clamitant Papistae Ecclesia Ecclesia Patres Patres heere we care not though Papists cry Church Church Fathers Fathers And againe Heere I do professe against them that vvill cry out that I do teach against the rite of the Church and ordinances of Fathers that I vvill heare none of these obiections And in another place against our K. Henry of England much more immodestly and wickedly when the King alleaged the authorityes of ancient Fathers for the masse this shamelesse fellow answered Thomisticos asinos c. I say that these Thomisticall asses haue nothinge to bringe forth but only a multitude of men and vse of antiquity And a little after he saith expressely that he careth not though a thousand Augustines and a thousand Cyprians be brought against him So as this first Father and chiefe Captayne of our Protestants did easily graunt as yow see that the whole consent of ancient Fathers was against him Ponderations Upon the Premises §. 4. 54. All which being considered there remayneth only to weigh what a discreet man may thinke or do in this important case For first heere is all the antiquity of the Christian Church on the one side that testifyeth vnto vs not only what was beleeued and exercised in their dayes but vpon what grounds also both of scriptures of the old and new Testament and by Christs owne institution fact and ordination and by the practise and tradition of the Apostles themselues Then is there the continuance of all ages since throughout all countreyes and nations of Christendome as hath byn said There is the agreement of all generall Councells The consent of all Ecclesiasticall historyes wherin as there is continuall mention of both publike and priuate exercise of this externall Sacrifice So is there no memory at all of any tyme synce the Apostles wherin yt began or that euer any contradiction doubt or question was about the same for 1200. yeares togeather after Christs assension which must needs haue happened yf the vse therof had not byn prescribed and left by Christ and his Apostles themselues For what men or people would haue attempted to begin or bring in so great a matter as this or who would haue receaued yt without opposition yf yt had not byn established euen from the beginninge I adde also another coÌ„sideration of no little importance which is that yf Christ had left his Church people without a particular externall sacrifice wherby they should be distinguished from all other people the Christian Church vnder the law of grace should be inferiour to the Church of the patriarks vnder the law of nature and vnto the Prophetts vnder the law of Moyses for that both of those Churches and people had an externall dayly sacrifice wherby to honour God besides the internall sacrifice of their mynd neyther can yt be said that Christs owne sacrifice on the Crosse once offered for all is this dayly sacrifice apprehended by vs in faith for that they also beleeued in him and their sacrifices were acceptable only by faith in him to come And therfore as Christs one sacrifice then to come was no impediment why their dayly sacrifices which tooke their valour from this one of Christ should not be dayly offered amonge them so the same sacrifice of Christ vpon the Crosse being now past should not take away our dayly sacrifices offered in remembrance therof and for the applying of the infinite valour of that one sacrifice vnto vs from which this other dayly sacrifice taketh his sufficiency 55. Furthermore the very outward forme of all Christian Churches there buildinge with Crosses Altar Iles and the like the foundinge of monasteryes Chappell 's oratoryes the ceremonyes in foundinge them their statutes for sayinge of masses for the dead which were in Britany both before our nation was conuerted and much more after the whole Canon of our Latyn masse-booke which is graunted by our aduersaryes and euidently proued to haue byn as yt is now for aboue a thousand yeares togeather and brought in by S. Augustine our first Apostle All these things I say do shew whether this were a matter to be called in question by a few libertyne Priests and auaritious noble men to be banished the realme vpon a soddayne vnder the name of a child Kinge that knew not what yt meant as yt was in K. Edwards dayes in our miserable countrey 56. Moreouer yf yow ponder with your selfe what manner of Priests they were for life learninge and vertue that acknowledged themselues to haue offered sacrifices vpon Altars in their dayes as S. Irenaeus S. Cyprian S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome S. Augustine S. Gregory and others of the first ages yea and for these â—ater ages since Berengarius mooued first the question about the reall presence as S. Anselme â— Bernard S. Thomas of Aquin S. Dominicke and almost infinite other Saints and holy men of whome all historyes do report wonderfull extraordinary tokens of almighty God his speciall fauours towards them and do compare them with the first marryed Priests and Apostata friars that were the first impugners of this sacrifice in England or round about vs we shall find a great difference And then yf we consider by what good spiritt or motiue Luther began the first contradiction in Germany which was by the diuells owne persuasion and personall appearance vnto him and disputinge against yt for yt seemed that he esteemed so much both of the man and the matter that he would not send an Embassadour vnto him as he did soone after to Zuinglius for impugninge the reall presence but go himselfe in proper person and that all this is confessed by themselues and testifyed by their owne wrytings All this I say being laid togeather may strengthen him that hath any faith at all to stand constant in the beleefe of the Catholike Church concerninge these articles For yf there be any certainty or ground in Christian Religion at all