to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌs Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale ân which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌs are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌcell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie âecumenicall such as were generall ând approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and ârre Wee dispute not you and ãâã now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâose it be and define be infalâble But what men Cathoâike Deuines haue auerred âouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and âpproued The termes of the Question âe remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and âpproued or entirelie oecumeâicall Deuines of the Catholike âommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâuse entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters âf Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâi sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some âaue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâture which all now beleeue âo be Canonicall wherefore if ãâã this matter of Councels-auââoritie the like should haue âappened the tenet of Assistanâe giuen to them in their deârees of faith being grounded ãâã Scripture and hauing for it ãâã more euident perpetuall tradiââon then you can shew for diâers parts of Scripture which âou do beleeue to be diuine âere still euen by you in like âanner to be admitted and âaintained vnles you think it âwfull to reiect those Books alââ because once doubted of or âenied and neuer to beleeue âat which might with a preânce of authoritie be oppoââd or contradicted Thus I could answer and âare the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ you wrong some that be leaâned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ adherents that will beleeuâ you to the preiudice of theâselues and others vpon yoâ bare word when they sââ none contradict and confuâ that you boast of I will suruââ the citations Our dispute in this matteâ is to be of Catholikes it is as bâfore was noted impertineââ to talke of others and of sucâ as in plaine termes haue auouchâ and maintained what you prâtend they did Wee know thâ some haue beene mistaken ãâã great matters and yet contânued in the Church either bâcause the thing was not suffâcientlie brought to light ãâã matters appertaining to diuinâ faith be not at all times equaâlie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌs of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know âoo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages âuen the primitiue Others haâe discouered their temptaâions with all the motions of âheir vnderstanding to and âro concealing onlie the finall âesolution or euent Of which ânfirmitie some and not wiâhout scandall haue exhibited âhemselues by their writings âublicke spectacles to the âorld With those you and ãâã need not meddle being to âpeake of such onlie if any can âe found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâherwhile be not of vs. Some âo beare themselues for Caâholikes who be in their hearâes Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
works openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels Much lesse can the passage alleaged serue your turne if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so and yeâ no Catholikes thinke so there being other Christians in the world beside Catholikes euen in his opinion that said and was it not the same b Quaeso vt mihi reueles an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari Mag. Iudaei Sarraceni etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem ChristianaÌ esse erroneaÌ Disc Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teueat Ockam dialog par 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you that vnder the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretikes who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions of whomsoeuer Catholikes or Heretikes yea and sometimes others âhat no c Nolo vt quod tenes in mente reueles sed respoÌsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque non differas recitate c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum Haereticorum interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur licet possint habere Catholicos Haereticos defendentes te desidero recitare sic enim multiplicius efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia Idem c. 34. Christians hold This for your argument of omnes and quidam Christiani some Christians and all Christians VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam dial 2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Christians whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued The vniuersall diffused Church onlie iâ vnerrable but a generall Councell iâ not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false as our Deuines doe proue by playne testimonieâ of scripture and our aduersaries ãâã necessitie must acknowledg aâ much vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church all together For if onely the Symbolicaâ or vniuersall Church diffuse through all Nations and times hatâ the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith it followes thaâ the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles all consenting are not to bâ relied on as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole ãâã they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall Howbeit tâ Question here is not of that argument or proposition but whetheâ Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells or whether he doth name or giue other sufficient notice of any Catholike that denied it He names here none ât all neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thinke c. and least any should suspect him he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the d Quamuiâ firmissimè puteÌ quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus exemplis videtur posse probari Prima autem ratio talis est Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia c. vt pag. 5. Ockam li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9. habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam minde that a generall Councell cannot ârre in faith The like proceeding you may obserue in him els-where as in the last Chapter of this booke where he bringes reasons and leaues them without answer too to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason pastors and people men and women may erre against the faith and that it is temeâarious to say they will neuer doe so though he there confesse this which âe goeth about to proue to (e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat Disc Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci Disc Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari tamen saepè rationes apparentes difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur Vnde qualescunque inuenire coneris Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare tali ratione probatur c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit Ibidem in fine be ââlse as it is indeed and manifestly against the Scripture Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes 4. Apoc. 20. and that he knewe no Christian at all he liued before the Protestant Religion that held it ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduersatur tenens quod Scripturae diuinâ contentae in Biblia eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus Vniuersall Ecclesiae atque Apostolis absque vlla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia noâ decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum nec Doctorum dictis siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione praestanda Licet in multis negari non debeant quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial 3. par tract 1. li. 3. c. 4. 3. THe third thing obiected is that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies and in euery case without exception Were this his owne tenet our cause were not hurt for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church approued much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import in omni dicto casu absque omni exceptione in all they say and in all cases without exception neither indeed
also by his instigation seemeth good to vs. That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in sincere approued Councells it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgmeÌt If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him and that his decision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included and consequentlie when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines or such as he approues and so not all that are vnder the name of generall but some onelie as hath beene said before Now that he had that estimation which I haue mentioned of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition it is manifest by the 47. Chapter where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine S. Hierome Rufinus Origen the Bishops of Africk and others The title of the Chapter is Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates debellandum cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas And in the verie nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt licet Doctores vltra eos Episcopos inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam cuius moderameÌ decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico quo sciret reprobare malum eligere bonum Walden to 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit Hieronymus apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam vel ad probandum Catholicam postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta sine dubio foret per null âmaltum violanda Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëgerunt Ibidem vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato beginning he saith Papae moderamen decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers marke that by the Fathers held for a truth which cannot be contradicted To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome where amonge other things he saith that oo Propter hanc incorruptionem claritatem famosam omnes viri Catholici quantumcunque magni quantumlibet sancti simul authoritate territi magnae sedis ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica cap. 48. all Catholick men how great how holie soeuer haue from that See receaued documents in doubts of faith and that it is as he speakes in the words of Cyrill stabilita inquassabiliter so established that it cannot be moued or shaken and more to the same purpose which in the additions you may reade So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie demonstrated out of his booke that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected Out of that which hath beene related from him it appeares also that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion deuines expresse it by certitudo maior maior ex parte subiecti respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed Secondlie thar with him these proponents are infallible vizt the Church symbolicall that part of it which is now present including both Pastors and people a perfect and syncere generall Councell and the Church of Rome as it is head or the Pope defining Thirdlie that the Pope Councell and present Church when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith called into question or the authoritie of any writing or scripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no is to looke into the symbolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe with the meaning written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God and there to finde it not in euerie page of this greate booke not expressed in the faith of euerie part but in the booke And if after the search made it be proposed by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued or by the Pope in Councell to the Church all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it Fourthlie that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie and the symbolicall in whom she finds it beleeuing and testifying the same doe make vp one organ where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world Fiftlie that besides the authorities before mentioned all contained in the Church wherein our sauiour pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus 2 Corim 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aeteânuÌ spiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit Ibidem Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie as of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation not by the Church or him disapproued of particular Churches especiallie qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere epistolas accipere meruerunt c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles haue liued in and amongst them chieflie the Roman though considered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul of nationall or prouinciall Synods and the like all which according to this Author haue their waight though not the same with the Pope in Councell I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake before treating of Cameracensis and passe vnto the next §. IV. 1. Panormitan the Lawier speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope nor by the Church diffused which Councells the Question meddles not withall 2. It were possible he thinks for God considering his absolute power to conserue the true faith in one man or woman 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus authoritatibus quà m Concilium quod standum esset sententiae suae Nam Concilium potest errare sicut aâià s errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptum Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâion determining it to be a point of âaith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâing to this author no further queâtion made of it since the diuine ârouidence doth so guide her that ân such definitions she in no sort âan iudge erroneouslie or determine âesides the truth â Neither is this integritie in deâânition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as âor the good of his Church God âath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâer fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus âlua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum ãâã sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est âumana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâââ cum quaeââtur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâsus cum tamen esse illum âaradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâr vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâore vel extra corpus in terâium caelum sit raptus Apoâolus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa âundi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi âotuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâe huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad âbscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâas latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌtummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâta veritate tradeÌdis locum habet quae vel in coÌtrouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌt c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnââ all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌt or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees ãâã definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâonici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
intellecta vel à nobis S. Aug epist 111. Other bookes haue not in euerie part that infallibilitie other writers haue not such ample assistance as the Sacred writers had SI diuinarum scripturarum earum sc quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur perspicua firmatur authoritate sine vllae dubitatione credendum est Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist 112. 2. THe Second exception is that S. Augustine in an other place Epist 112. speakes not of writings only but of witnesses and leaues it as it is pretended in our choise whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture Wherevnto I answer that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other in your sence binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church as infallible esteeming it c S. August epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it yet the Church is not scripture To this purpose there be many places in him whereof I will cite one In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion without rebaptizing he makes this discourse d S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie should be consulted of vs in this Question wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ by whose testimonie he was commended now our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church wherefore as that Church diffused thorough all Nations beginning at Hierusalem doth receaue such penitents so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued And if thou wilt not thou doest most perniciouslie coÌtrarie to thy owne saluation striue against not me or any maÌ but our Sauiour himselfe whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted as that Church which he whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable commends with his testimonie doth admit The same is confirmed out of the Gospell wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles and Disciples and in them to the Church that they should beare e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 testimonie of him yet the Apostles the Disciples the whole Church be not Scripture Againe f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me saith our Sauiour he that contemneth you contemneth me There is therefore an authoritie aliue and distinct from the written word which wee must yeeld vnto by S. Augustine also confessed and consequentlie it is not in our choise to beleeue or contemne any but the scripture Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles before it was written downe as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned To the place obiected Supra pag 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi crederâ vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited doe suggest an easie answer as this Others not commended by this authoritie beleeue or not beleeue as you see cause but others commended by this authoritie you must beleeue as farre as by it they are warranted and commended Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes must beleeue him for of him they giue testimonie The like it is of the Church if you beleeue the Prophets you must beleeue the vniuersall Church for they giue testimonie of it and as S. Augustine saith more cleere then of our i S. Augu. Enarr in psal 30. conc 2. Sauiour himselfe One testimonie may warrant another and so they will become in a manner one He that obaieth the magistrate doth therein honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes doth therein a dutie vnto God who commands it Wee stoope to God when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization was come this k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis quarum nobis communis est authoritas ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum nec nos ita susceptum quantum ad hanc remattinet par nobis causa est Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs one comming from Heretikes againe baptized nor wee one so receaued for as much as concernes this matter that is producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other our cause is equall he shewes notwithstanding how euen in this point the Church in his time and he with it followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti c. for it is not of small regard or moment that whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part or faction began to be this Question did wauer and had the different OpinioÌs of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike Church spred ouer all the world And a litle after wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs and euen in this thing when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat let him require in it the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs You know that actions donne with ones owne haÌd by the motion of his owne spirit a man reputes not aliene but his owne So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie donne by the motion of his Spirit Settle
this assistance the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you Ioann 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer Ephes 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine Such a giddines happens in other things also besides fundamentalls The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall to all our Sauiours doctrine as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels as in that of Trent And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine in the Donatists case about Baptisme which controuersie not being expressed in the Apostles Creed was in a Councell defined and in vertue of this assistance by the whole Christian world Neither doe you finde the difficultie which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell put into the Creede Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke infallibilitie cannot be inferd and more you will not graunt But our Sauiour graunted more he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth Ioh. 14. 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of he cannot misse the truth or teach a lie The sence which he doth inspire teach affirme is certaine and the falsitie of any one thing were it possible he should teach a falsitie would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie in the estimation of his creatures yea the whole Scripture would be questioned if this ground were not firme â Petr. 1. if that were not certaine which men inspired by the holie Ghost and affirming as from him or he in them might be false Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture it hath assistance and is infallible but not els This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture or teach and define matter of faith whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith Ioann 15. without him wee can doe nothing and therefore he hath promised assistance that wee may knowe his will and our dutie and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth The Iewes and Pagans and heretikes looke on Scripture but they doe not vnderstand it The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost left to teach her and by his helpe doth vnderstaÌd What need a Schoolemaster if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke or will you call it instruction if he neuer tell him any thing but what the child himselfe knowes before you knowe moreouer that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture the written word or about the Apostles Creed or generall tradition assistance is necessarie and also for the sence of Scripture more then is by your definition fundamentall To omitt that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour by the promised assistance then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it for they dot not erre if they followe Scripture and iudge as it is there So little is the discretion of this answer and so small a benefit or rather no benefit you coÌceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise Whereas wee beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word he can and will make and bringe to passe Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts He writes his lawes in her heart Ierem. 31. what hinders him and keepes his words Isa 59. in her mouth He hath opened a Schoole and put a Master in the chaire Docebit saith he he shall teach and if the lessoÌ be forgot suggeret Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues he is Master and shall teach it Fiftlie you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells but no more Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost and in Councells He defineth Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis Act. 15. were the words of the Councell it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs not to vs onlie but to him in himselfe and in vs heere assembled with his assistance promised in cases of this nature and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe to decide a controuersie our act is his act 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good In S. Paul Christ spake the Apostles words 1. Thess 1. were acknowledged to be and were indeed the words of God Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church the definition is his you must beleeue it and Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words S. Aug. suprà there is no more doubt to be made of it In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquenteâeâ homine Volunt tameÌ posse ab eo prouocari in foro in âerno sea conscientiae Siâ Wittakerus c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno scilicet in fide ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo non in interno teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei eamque non confiteri coram hominibus nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis in animas ipsas ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum Reuerendiss Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular You finde none that denies what wee beleeue Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs affirme it constantlie And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians then the Apostles themselues whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell and this too though the point so determined were neither fundamentall nor found in Scripture You shall finde also as hath beene likewise insinuated
A RELECTION OF CERTAINE AVTHORS That are pretended to disauow THE CHVRCHES INFALLIBILITIE IN HER GENERALL DECREES OF FAITH BY F. E. Acts 15. It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to vs. AT DOWAY By the widdow of MARK WYON at the golden Phoenix 1635. TO THE RIGHT-WORSHIPFVLL MY WORTHIE FREIND M. S. N. MVCH HONOVRED SIR WHEN I receaued from you the last rich token I promised to returne a letter full of thanks But being then vpon a iourney found not meanes to send and so failed in my dutie Whereby my obligation was doubled to pay the debt that first and then to satisfie for the fault In discharge of both which if you please to accept of these few printed leaues you shall oblige anewe Your thankfull freind and seruant F. E. To M. S. A. SIR WHen a doubt is proposed out of a desire to knowe the truth I must not being called vpon be wanting to professe what I haue learned and do beleeue but if it comes out of a curious humor of contradicting I can dispose of my time better then to spend it in disputes What your mind is you reserue as your secret yet not so secret neither but that I perceaue something of it Your deliberation might I be of your counsell should quicklie be concluded He takes the safe way that followes the direction of the Church That Church I meane which all times could point at and which all Hereticks haue opposed You know that neither a Mar. vlt. Ioan. 3. Apoc. 21. Tim. 3. Galat 5. vide S. Aug. li. 4. con Donat Hereticks nor b 1. Cor. 12 Col. 2. Gal. 5. Vide S. Aug. Ep. 152. de vnit Eccl. c. 4. Firmissimè tene nullatenus dubites non solum omnes Paganos sed etiam omnes Iudaos Haereticos atque Schismaticos qui extra Ecclesiam CatholicaÌ praesentem finiuÌt vitam in ignem aternum ituros qui paratus est diabolo angelis eius S. Fulg. de Fide ad Pet. c. 38. inter Op. S. Aug. t. 3. Of the grieuousnes of the crime of Schisme see S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donatistas Schismatiks one wanting charitie the other faith too be in state of saluation These and such like things you can weigh your self And where the minde is not ill disposed the resolution is most easie Prudence neuer sticks at such a matter If your hinderance be that onlie which is insinuated I shall willinglie shew you how you may remoue it Go the Catholike waie that is secure Seeke no by-waies Suppose you might be made Arch-bishop of Canterburie vpon condition that you would go to LaÌbeth on foote and that there were some danger yet no great daÌger neither of loosing your purse without further harme if you tooke the common way ouer the bridge Would you stay till winter that you might go without that difficultie in greater perill and then hearing Themse to be frozen presentlie before they durst venture who told you so take your iourney ouer the ice A wise man would not veÌture his life and all in that manner to saue two or three ten or tweÌtie peices being presentlie to receaue a thousand if he came to Lambeth safe and euer after to liue in great aboundance Yet your case is more desperate You know that in heauen you shall receaue at your entrance the possession of an eternall kingdome with a crowne of glorie amongst Angels in immortalitie The common way thither is the Catholike which way if you take you coÌceaue the danger of being a little taxed in your purse and you think you heare some tell you there is an other waie but nice and ticklish wherein those who speak themselues durst not venture because if it miscarrie soule and bodie and Heauen and all is lost by a fault of c Quisquis ab hac Catholica Ecclesia fuerit separatus quaÌtumlibet laudabiliter se viuere existimet hoc solo scelere quod à Christi vnitate disiunctus est non habebit vitam sed ira Dei maret super eum S. August Epist. â52 Schisme which opens into a downefall that ends not but where there is no end at all in Hell To venture your bodie ouer a deepe riuer vpon a bridge of thinne brittle glasse and to venture your soule ouer Hell-mouth vpon a ticklish opinion which is worse He that loueth danger the Scripture saith shall perish in it Eccles â What speake I of an opinion When your imagination doth cease from working no bridge at all appeares you are but in a dreame But were there two or three who did against the rest and against the knowne practice of the Church auouch what you pretend would you venture your soule whilst worlds of learned men bid you take heed vpon their word Perpetuall torment among the damned spirits is a matter of that horrour that wisedome would seeke the safest waie to decline it and he that could see heauen a far of with those inexplicable âoyes that are in it would think on nothing els but the securest way thither and feare nothing more then to misse it Were you to purchase a temporall estate or inheritance for your child you would not venture your mony vpon a title which the practice of the kingdome doth dislike and which Lawiers commonlie say is naught though two or three should tell you that it were a good title much lesse in securing to your owne soule an eternall inheritance should you be contented to relie vpon the Authoritie of two or three were there such the rest with the generall Spirit Gods people contradicting and anathematizing such as proceede in that manner That Catholikes are against you generallie in this pointâ you know They communicate not with those who dâ openlie oppose themselues to the decrees of Councels oecumenicall The Councels themselues excommunicate and anathematize them also And as manie graue Prelates and learned Deuines as euer esteemed their authoritie sufficient to determine a Controuersie and oblige men to conforme their iudgment therevnto who be innumerable so manie do counsell you not to trust vnto these fewe suppose you found them telling you that if you do you forfaite heauen When a fewe reputed Schollers were they many were it a whole Nation hold a tenet that is against the Church their Authoritie doth not make it Probabilia sunt quae videÌtur omnibus aut plurimis aut sapientibus his vel omnibus velplurimis vel maximè familiaribus probatis Arist li. 1. Topic c. 1. Nonomne quod videtur probabile est probabile Ibidem probable The truth of her assertions dependeth not vppon the approbation of euerie one that is in her Communion Much lesse of others The Pastors are to teach and if some of them do chance to forgoe the truth and leaue it there is power in the * You remember the practice of the Church in her first Councells against Arians Nestorians c. rest to define the matter and condemne theÌ
Docete Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know they be grounded they take the secure way The way which you take is temerarious it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three against the common and against the Spirit of the Church generallie yet because it likes him for that it is easier to be conceaued or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath or better suting to the libertie which he could wish he is coÌtent to âhink the authoritie of those ââo or three though the ââst contradict sufficient to âake is probable and then iudâng of the reasons and motiâes which they bring as his ââfections incline him he thinks ãâã at last certaine So did the ârians depending vpon the âuthoritie first of their leaâers and then deeming their âotiue as that pater maior me ãâã to be manifestlie against the Church and for them Neither be the Leaders themselues Arch-heretickes wiââout pretence of authoritie they cite the d Fortasse aliquisinterroget An Haeretici diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Vtuntur planè vehemeÌter quidem nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina per Moysi per Regum volumina per Psalmos per Apostolos per Euangelia per Prophetas Siue enim apud suos siue alienos siue priuatim siue publice siue in sermonibus siue in libris siue in conuiuijs siue in plateis nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferuÌt quod non etiam Scripturae verbâs adumbrare conentur Vinc. lirin c. 35. Si quis interroget queÌpiam Haereââcorum sibi talia persuadentem vnde probas vnde doces quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem antiquam fidem dimittere debeam Statim ille mille testimonia mille exempla mille authoritates parat de lege de psalmis de apostolis de prophetis quibus nouo malo more interpretatis ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo moduÌ istum didicisse Scriptum est enim Scriptures ââd gleane obscure speaches ât of auncient good writers which in shewe do make for them When a man once takes this âay he squares out his Religion to himself or rather he runnes out of all from one thing to another from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable till at last is he findes himself most certainlie in Hell Faith is a firme assent but his if well examined is not so It is not diuine faith he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others with a shadow If two or three tell him thatâ Councell may mistake though the rest auouch the contrarie he is content to think it may and heereupon presentlie doubts of all that is so defined Then further proceeding iâ the same sillie motiue if thâ whole Church auouch a thing yet so as some two or three at some time or other held thâ contrarie he will not beleeââ the Church neither No nor the Apostles if any tell him they might erre A Rainolds a Whittakers authoritie makes the contrarie to him probable and by that time he hath read their bookes he thinkes himself certaine of it But in the meane while where is the faith of such a man wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent To the Scriptures No their authoritie who denied them makes him doubt To the Creed nor so the authoritie of two or three serues his turne and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused Arianisme Nestorianisme Sabellianisme Eutichianisme Pelagianisme Lutheranisme Swinglianisme all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbetâors whereas two or three serue his turne Where then is his religion in his mouth peraduenture but in his heart well examined there is none Others there be not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned but determined extreamelie vnto one The Puritan for example to Iohn Caluin whom he prefers before the rest all together Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former AmoÌgst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent this is one that in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding He will not denie that this is true he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall is greater then the Authoritie of one single man The greatest âchollers haue euer stooped to ãâã yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin then such a Councell Yea rather then all the knowne Churches in the world though e Though some now disseÌt as you for example yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood consenting As in the matter of the Masse vnbloodie Sacrifice reall Presence And what way is there think you to deale with such a man or to what end is it to dispute with him If you cite Scripture he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient of the whole Church deliuering the sence of it It is so in the point of the Reall presence And in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too he will be his owne chooser and will iudge himself which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded Vide disput de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the coÌtrouersie betwixt the Church and him touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant The Spirit no doubt But in whom in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time Not so They might erre he thinkes and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were and all the Pastors of the world though consenting they might all he thinks be deceaued Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture or about the sinceritie of the letter in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master In Master Iohn So he beleeues rather theÌ he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church Now tell me is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate to challeng to ones self or his Master Iohn authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters and not onlie to them Ephes 4 in what age soeuer but absolutelie to the Church without exempting the first Disciples and Apostles These for
sooth be the men that in the pulpits crie so lowde who disesteeming the whole world besides obtrude themselues as masters of mankind each an Oracle I know you wash your hands your words condemne their insolencie you will not seeme to participate of their fault But what is in your heart Are not you too one of those that abbet a priuate judgment against a publike You plead against the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her generall assemblies that I see And I know too that you punish men for not conforming themselues to the determinations of one not generall Reconcile these if you can And tell me if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is perfectlie oecumenicall what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refused what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receaue the Decrees of your Conuocation Is euerie subiect bound to be of his Princes Religion or is it lawfull for him to subscribe against that he knowes to be the truth Is England since you began to teach growne bigger then all the world is a part is was not of old so bigger then the whole In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees oecumenicall you plead the Authoritie of some fewe men how vniustlie heareafter it will appeare and shall not the Authoritie of farre more and those great Schollers excuse vs in conscience for not subscribing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things generallie condemned in former ages To giue instance in one point that containes many In your 23. article you determine thus The Sacrifices of Masses in the which was commonlie said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead to haue remission of paine or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits So you Yet was this Sacrifice frequented f Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes reges terra populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint Caluin Instit li. 4. c. 18. See the Protest Apol. tract 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclusion to the Iudges Sect. 6. 10. generallie when Luther began to make your Schisme It was auowed in the g S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit oblationem quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert Deo Concil Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill cum eo Concil Ephes in Anathem 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum S. Ambros de Sacram. li. 4. 5 S. Cyrill Catech. myst 5 S. Chrysost lib. 3. 6. de Sacerdotio Hom. 17. in Epist ad Hebraeos His Liturgie is yet extant And so is S. Basils too S. Gregor Nyssen Hom. 1. de Resurr Praeoccupat impetum violentum ac sese in oblationem victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul agnus Dei. Vide Disp li. 5 c. 9 Coccium in Thesanro t 2. li. 6. a. 4. times primitiue And our Sauiours h This is my bodie which is broken for you This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you words registred in the i 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead it is also testified abundantlie S. Epiphan Haeres 75 where he saith also the Church receaued it by tradition S. Cyrill Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij S. Chrysost Homil. 3 in Epist ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta vt in venerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere multum vtilitatis S. August in Enchirid. ad Laurent c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort c. 1. c. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij ab vna is exhibeatur âia matre Ecclesia Lib. 9. Confess c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge c. S. Ioan. Damasc Orat. quod defuncti Missis inuentur Quod quidem citra vllam controuersiam Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia sine vlla ambiguitate retinet c. Vt consuetudinis testem âllum cito The like appeares by the Liturgies Where obserue that I reflect preciselie vpon the termes of your Article which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to haue remission of paine or guilt If this be a blasphemous fable the whole world was in Errour So commonlie was it said and esteemed lawfull and so vniuersallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table verit decima The Protestants Apol. tract 1. Sect. 3. subd 4. and Sect. 7. subd 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct li. 2. c. 24. angl Bible being vnderstood in their natiue proper sence do k What necessitie there is to enquire into the true sence of these words This is my bodie will best appeare in the after-examination of the diuers consequences of your owne sence to wit your doctrine of transsubstantiation corporall and materiall presence propitiatorie sacrifice and proper adoration all which depend vpon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ The issue then wâll be this that if the words be certainelie true in a proper and litterall sence then wee are to yeild to you the whole cause Morton Instit. of Masse li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Masse had his instructions from the Deuil as doth appeare still by his owne booke de Missa Priuata p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 â ân summa Edit Wittemb anno 1558. where he puts dâwne the Deuils arguments amongst which one is against vnbloodie Sacrifice Contra institutionem Christi Missa vsus es pro Sacrificio c. §. quarto confessedlie make for and confirme it Now should wee subscribe to your Article wee should contradict all this Wee should contradict open Scripture interpreted by the whole Christian world and by the l And this Spirit is the Holie Ghost Ioh. 14. 16. Spirit in it And whilst you sollicite vs so to do what do you but abbet a priuate Spirit and this too importunelie vnseasonablie then when you denie to the whole Church power to define the veritie euen of this cause or to declare the sence of Scripture touching it in her Councels oecumenicall I am not disposed
rauening wolues in sheeps-clothing some and the Pastors driue them âot away because they know âhem not The Disciples knew âot that one in the companie was a Deuil Wee are heere to âreat of things manifest and to âhe Church and so farre that âhey might be legallie proued against the men when they weâe âe liuing and exteriorlie enâoyed the benefit of Commuâion or are now to be seene ãâã their books bookes not âensured so cleerlie that it is ânexcusablie vndeniable Your âelf I suppose would require no lesse euidence to condemne a man and in so great a matter after death when he can speake no more for himself then was necessarie to q Reus non antè condemnandus est quaÌ si idoneis testibus vel apertissimis documentis vel indicijs indubitatis luce clarioribus coÌuict is fuerit aut propria coÌfessione c. Vide legem fi C. de Probationibus l. Qui sententiam 16. C. de poeâ Neqâe manifestò constet incurrisse in sententiam excomun quod nullo modo potest occultari aut per aliquod reââ edium iurâs excusari c. Extra Mart V. Adeuâanda condemne him when he was aliue To vndertake this Question in the latitude that I do is more then was necessarie for the defence of a generall traditionâ more then can be showne for diuers partes of the New testamenâ by you receaued but the poweâ of the veritie will appeare thâ better when it is found to hauâ bene so vniuersallie manifest and so commonlie receaued that none by the Church esteemed Orthodoxe in their ââmes haue beene euer knownâ though there were still occasion to looke vpon the authoritie of such Councels openlâ to contradict it and auouch thâ contrarie Neither could I well refuse it is a duetie in him that hath reaped benifit by their âabours to come abroad and defend the iust honour of Perâons wrongd who be not aâiue now to maintaine their owne credit APPROBATIO IN hoc libro cui titulus A RelectioÌ c. nihil est fidei Catholicae aut boââs moribus contrarium sed multa quae âeritatem Catholicam confirmant Quaâopter dignum censui qui praelo comâittatur Actum Duaci 22. Maij 1635. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theol. Doctor eiusdem regius ordinariusque Professor Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus Vniuersitatis Duacensis Cancellarius librorum Censor Ex Disput li. 4. c. 5. pag. 377. OFfer not to cite any knowne Schismatike whose opinion is generallie by all Deuiâeâ reiected cite no booke but what is at least tolerated in the Church and haue a care you proue that the man whom you cite doth himsef directlie and openlie asseuere and affirme the thing in Question Because it were but losse of time to speake of others such as either had their writings censured when they came to be knowne or durst not openlie auouch what they would to you seeme to say There are degrees in leauing the communion of the Church and the same partie at one time may be in it and at other time either out or in such an errour as if obstinacie were added to it would take him out Neither can the subtile dealing of any discontented person if he chance to step ouer shoes preiudâce our cause or be taken for the tenet of the Church vnles the Church approue it and error it neuer did or will approue So there by way ãâã preuention howbeit you were not pleased to take notice of it And in the end of the leafe are cited some ãâã Ockams words Whose authoritie you scan first aâ so will I for a reason not yours Which Will quicklâ show it self THE QVESTION Whether any Deuines of the Catholike Communion haue openly and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie oecumenicall such as were generall and approued that in Decrees of Faith they might mistake and erre YOV haue vndertaken the Affirmatiue and will be Plaintiff Your instance is in Austen Vincentius Lirinensis Athanasius amongst the Auncient and in Oâkam and Waldensis amongst the later To the same purpose others do cite Cameracensis Panormiâââ Stapleton Cusanus Clemangis and Canus and Baro who professedlie disputes the matter ioynes Optatus and Antoninus Franciscus Picus is alleaged some where too by the said Minister reciting the Opinions of some of these men What Councels he speakes of I do not intend to dispute being to looke into the Authors them selues and out of their owne Writings not out of other mens to learne their mind You will not be displeased if I put the places downe as Baro cites them that such as haue hiâ booke which is publike may compare and iudgeâ as they see cause §. I. 1. Ockam in a booke of his that is prohibited saies that some Christians comprehending Hereticks vnder the name seeme to think generall Councels some might erre 2. Fâ brings in behalf of those men an argumentâ proue it which argument is manifestlie deâcient In like manner he brings arguments proue that which he confesseth to be false as thought this also to be 3. He recites an opânion whereof he saies he knew no abbettor thâ speakes doubtfullie of the manner of assistinâ ãâã and himself auoucheth the Authoritie of sincere generall Councels He toucheth obiter the question who doth approue and how and who declares them to be generall 4. His proceedings in this worke discommended QVia omnes Christiani sentire videntur quod tota multitudo Christianorum haereticari non potest quidam autem secundò quod nec Concilium generale aliqui verò tertiò quod nec Rom. Ecclesia nonnulli autem quartò quod nec Collegium Cardinalium aliqui verò quintò quod nec etiam Papa potest hatetica pollui prauitate Ideo de istis quinque quid sentiant Christiani cupio vt mihi reueles Baro. p. 359. ex Ockam dial li. 5. c. 1. 1. OCKAM All Christians doe seeme to thinke that the whole multitude of Christians caÌnot become heretick but some Christians do seeme to thinke that neither a generall Councell Here first is not determined what generall Councells those people meane whether approued or not approued by the see Apostolike Seâondly it is not said absolutly that they doe thinke and maintaine that Councells oecumenicall may propoââe and teach heresie but that some âoe seeme to thinke that Generall Councels whether some or all is not here expressed may haereticari or haeretica prauitate pollui haereticate to keepe his termes or be stained with hereticall prauitie Thirdly it is not expressed who these Christians were whether Catholikes or Schismatickes And in case an excoÌmunicated persoÌ seeking how to maintaine Schismaticall proceedings in a book not tollerated but a Index lib. prohibit Conc. Trid. expresly forbidden should not avouch but seeme to think that Councels though generall might erre this could not make good what yoâ professe to proue vzt that men ãâã our Communion haue in their curraâ
priuate by any that is a Scholler Consentiens subscripsâ but I should not anticipate SI quaeratur quis habet iudicare an concilia fuerint catholicè celebrata Respondetur quod quia non definirent aliquâ nisi quod potest elici ex Scriptu is diuinis ideo periti in Scrâpturis habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam scriptârarum habent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis quod ãâã finita abijs sunt catholicè definita Baâo ex Ockami dial 4. LAstlie you take occasion oâ of his words to question whâ shall iudge whether the Councâ haue defined canonicallie or no ãâã which case wee are not so ignoraâ as to runne out of the Church to Hâretickes to learne of them Neithâ doe wee esteeme William Ockam great an oracle that were his doctâne heerein singular neglecting boâ the aa) Quamuis omnes Episcopi orbis terrae praesentes fuissent 3 p. li 3. c. 9. per congregationem quae à multitudine fidelium Generale CoÌcilium aestimatur Ibidem Councell and the Churâ (bb) Et si quaeratur quis habet iudicaâe an fuerint catholicè celebrata Respondetur quod quia non definierunt aliquid nisi quod potest elici ex Scripturis diuinis ideo periti in Scripturis habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam scripturarum babent iudicare per moduÌ firmae assertionis fortè assentionis quod definita ab eis sunt catholicè definita Summi autem Pontifices si non fuerint praesentes sed tantum modo authoritate eorum praesentibus legatis ipsorum celebrata fuerunt authenticè iudicare habeÌt quod catholicè extiterint celebrata Si autem Summus Pontisex praesens fueriâ sufficit quod authenticet ipsa Ibidem adherent to it wee should gâ learne of him what conditions ãâã necessarie to the subsistence oâ Councell and whether all were ãâã or no. Yet this is not the Questioâ It is one thing to dispute whetheâ Priest can consecrate and another dispute whether you be a Priest Oâ thing to dispute whether a geneâ Councell can define infalliblie anoâher to dispute which is a generall Councell The controuersie wee speâke of is about the former wherein âatholikes maintaine the affirmaâue and you shall neuer proue that âkam held the contrarie by his Diaâgues whilst his Dialogues are extant ãâã fine if it be obiected that he hath ât expreslie and professedlie answeâd diuers argumeÌts which he bringes âainst Councells this will not conâde that he held against such as âere lawfull and approued and consequentlie that he did herein contradict himselfe for l. 5. c. vlt. he beings arguments to proue that the âhole multitude of beleeuers as âany as haue vse of reason may erâ concluding (cc) suprà ad lit d vide etiam quae habentur lâtâh it is temerarious to ârme that it will neuer be and âse arguments as I told you once âore he leaues vnanswered not âhstanding that in the beginning ãâã did acknowledge none but Soâticall could be brought and ât the thing was false and that he âewe no Christian at all Catholike or âetike that held it If you thinke that in his minde he was of that opinion you cannot approue the Spirit opposing all Christians and his owne conscience too If you do not think he was then let not his seeming want of answer or indiscreet and scandalous proposing of doubts moue you to iudge neglecting the caueat he gaue in the (dd) suprà ad lit f. beginning that in them he deliuered his owne minde Much lessâ should you adore this vnhappie worke as a piece heauenlie-inspired for the worlds learning considering how in it like a serpent hâ rowles himselfe into windings striuing still to hide his head and thaâ hauing turbulentlie snatcht pen iâ hand to maintaine a Schisme he beginnes the worke with the commendation of his owne great (ee) Quod tua Sapientia sentit Ibidem wisdome For my part I should noâ wonder to finde in such a workâ fouler errours then wee speake ãâã hetherto (ff) S. Hier. in Tit. c. 3. There is no scisme whicâ feignes not vnto it self some Heresie Sâ Ierome saies that it may seeme iustâ to haue departed from the Church §. II. 1. Petrus Cameracensis reciteth diuers opinions out of Ockam whereof one is that of Councels allreadie handled 2. He said in his yonger age disputatiuè not assertiuè that the infallibilitie of other Church besides the vniuersall could not be coÌuinced out of Scriptuâre What he thought of the point it self he declared afterwards 3. He did not hold that the whole multitude of Christians Clerks and 4. Laicks might fall from the true faith OMnes fideles in eo communiter consentire videntur quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omnium Christianorum haeâeticari non potest siue contra fidem errare Baro. p. 363. ex âlliacensâ Octaua assertio est quod etiam Concilium generale âotest contra fidem errare quia ipso sic errante adhuc staret ââliquos extra concilium non errare per consequens fidem Ecclesia non deficere Ibidem ex eodem 1. PETRVS CAMERACENSIS This man if the vâsperiae and the ResumptioÌ of it be his is brought first to beare witnes that in his time there were contrarie opinions about the authoritie of Councells The reason why they call vpon him is because amongst assertions which he relates in his Vesperiall Quaestion one is that a generall Councell may erre against faith Wherevnto I answer first that wee maintaine not the infallibilitie of all that beare the name SecoÌdlie he doth (a) Recitandae sunt quaedam assertiones circa istam materiam plurimum differentes Prima est in qua coÌmuniter omnes fideles videntur coÌâenire quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omniuÌ ChristianoruÌ haereticari non potest siue coÌtra fideÌ errare SecuÌda quod nec etiaÌ Concilium Generale Tertia quod nec Romana Ecclesia Quarta quod nec Collegium Cardinalium Quinta quod nec Papa canonicè intrans Aliae autem sunt quinque assertiones praedictis valdè repugnantes Vna est quod Papa intrans canonicé haereticari potest c. Octaua quod etiam Concilium Generale c. Nona est quod tota multitudo non solum Cardinalium sed generaliter omnium virorum potest sic errare fides Ecclesiâe in solis mulieribus conseruari Decima est quod tota multitudo Christianorum noâ solum virorum sed etiam mulierum vsum rationis habentium potest errare contra fidem quia hoc stante adhuc in paruulis baptizatis possunt saluari omnes promissioneâ Christi de fide Ecclesiae vsque ad consummationem saeculi Petrus Cameracensis Quaest. Vesp. recite assertions onely in that place and not approue them as appeares by his words recitandae sunt assertiones circa materiam istam plurimum differentes I musâ recite certaine assertions about thiâ matter that are much different or as after
could not finde an answer for it First he saith that supposing the whole Clergie should erre against the faith some one of them might haue power to giue orders to excommunicate or binde in way oâ iurisdiction to consecrate and administer Sacraments and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesiâ the Order of Prelacie which is of Ecclesiasticall Superiours to their inferiours would remaine in the Church as also distinction of degrees Sacraments and other rights But his opponent would aske him instantlie hoâ the distinction of degrees of Prieâ and Bishop of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacie and poweâ to consecrate absolue binde anâ preach be within if the Preists anâ Bishops if the Prelates and such ãâã haue this power be without He answers licet fortè non actu tamen in pâentiâ propinquâ though perchance not ââctuallie yet in a neere power and this ãâã passiue power for if the Preists and Bishops be without the actiue is not within How then is there actuallie ãâã Hierarchie and the ministration before spoken of in the Church he âeaues it heere and goes to trie (l) Secundo loco probat iste Magister secuÌdam parteÌ antecedentis sua principalis sc quod tota multitudo Clericorum non potest difformari legi Christi quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos c. âoÌ firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta quia sequitur quod posâet cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graâuum caetera contra Apostolum ad Ephes 4. vbi de Christo loquitur sic Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos âuosdam autem Prophetas c. ad aedificationem corporis Christi sc Ecclesiae donec occurramus Imo quod deficeâe posset sacerdotium Christi SacrameÌta alij ritus Ecâlesiae c. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici c. Ad confirmaâoneÌ licet supra tactum sit de materia argumeÌti tamen adâuc potest dici dupliciter Vno modo quod licet tota mulâtudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret tamen aliquis âacerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi liganââ conficiendi alia sacramenta conferendi sic reâanent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis distinctio graduum âcramenta alij ritus Et licet fortè non in actu tamen ãâã potentia propinqua Petrus Camerac Quaest de Reââmpta another waie which is though no Clerkes at all remained no Bishops no Priests in all the world to consecrate ordaine gouerne preach or exercise anie Hierarchicall actes yet the Church thereby should noâ loose the power to haue them anâ why if none remaine to consecrate preach or make a priest because though she could neuer haue them bâ humane power yet by Gods miraculouâ operation she might And in fine hâ concludes that though it be teârarious to affirme that euer it shalâ come to this yet to denie that Goâ by his omnipotencie can thus restoâ m Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticareÌtur aut omnino nulli remanereÌt propter hoc Ecclesia potestatem habeÌdi praedicta nequaquam amitteret Licet illa nunquam habere posset per humanam potestatem sed per miraculosam Dei operationem qui sc diuersis modis posset de aliquibus laicis Catholicis Sacerdotes Episcopos ordinare hoc suae Ecclesiae reuelare In quo casu omnes Catholici debereÌt taliter ordinatos à Deo sicut veros Episcopos Sacerdotes habere Et licet temerarium esset asserere talem casum de facto aliquaÌâ euenire tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus âtestatem negare Quia hoc esset de futuris in hypothesi per âiraculum tantùm possibili temerè diuinare contra arâculum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere Ibiâem vide Ockam Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. âdmiratione per moue or quod isti praesumunt asserere toâm Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri quia vix ânquam aliquis sine motiuo assentit errori aperias vnde âti mouentur pro opinione praedicta Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c. â9 a Hierarchie or that he woulâ if there should be neede were also temerarious And no doubt he thaâ of stones can raise vp seed to Abraham can without the ministerie ãâã men if he thinke good make infidels beleeue and ordaine theâ Priests and Bishops the question iâ not of his absolute power but whether by vertue of the present institution there shall be Hierarchical power in the Church euer till thâ consummation of the world Pastâres Doctores in opus ministerij doââ occurramus omnes The Scriptuâ affirmes it and the same was intended by that argument for which hâ could not finde though he weâ âbout to seeke an answer And theâefore finding himselfe in those âraites he thought it necessarie to âublish his protestation that what âe said was (n) suprà ad lit c. onelie disputatiuè âot assertiuè leauing vs withall to âonsider how dangerous a thing it ãâã for schollers to reade Ockams Diaâgues where is vnhappilie ministred âccasion of errour and whence he âooke manie things which you finâe in this writing TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum c. vt suprà pag. 26. IT is obiected further that he defends in his resumption that âhe whole multitude of Clerks and lay-men may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged hâ defends it not as appeares in the resumption of the seuerall parts ãâã that ratio quinta § o suprà ad lit l. Secundò probâ secundam partem antecedentis prinâpalis sc quod tota multitudo Clerâârum non petest difformari legi Chrisâ where comes in the argument before mentioned of Hierarchicall ordeâ and acts and in the solution yoâ shall finde alwaies laicks remaininâ in the Church and the same is alâ manifest by his three propositions before p suprà ad lit d. cited wherein he saies theâ will be alwaies in the Church pluâ adulti illustrati veritate fidei pluâ iusti formati virtute spei plures eleâ inflammati charitate Dei many adoâned with faith hope and charitâ which all will not be woemen ãâã lesse you will learne of Ockam thâ explication which he suggests ãâã he doth many strange ones elââ that is q Ad secundam rationem vt in errorem ducantur si fieri possit etiam electi potest dici quod electi coÌprehendunt viros mulieres ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tempore Antichristi remanebunt electi non potest concludi quod illi electi ânt viri quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae Ockam âal p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae men that is woeâ chosen or elected and then as a ingenious proficient in his Diaâgues make the like explication adulti and iusti You will recurre to the print or âppie for an excuse which plea âight be
admitted in some others ât in a scholler that pretends to haâ reade the Question in him and ââth vrge his authoritie against the âhurch of God such a pretence âth no place §. III. Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie will haue vs depend âon the Church for the sence of it 2. She is âo to declare which bookes are Canonicall âripture A speach of Canus touching Walâsis his Opinion examined 3. When he saith ãâã Fathers testimonie hath abolished all Heââes he doth not exclude the Authoritie of ãâã Church symbolicall or representatiue 4 âe symbolicall Church he saith against Wiâef is not the Predestinated people only but ãâã Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree HAecipsa fides authoritas Ecclesiae quantum homiââ supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis ââthoritati succumbit Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est ãâã inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae infimam ratioâ fides Ecclesiae Scripturas venerabiliter attollens exhibeus rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authoritaâ alligans zona Pauli Idem ex eodem 1. WALDENSIS saith the authoââtie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture What this will you inferre that wee thârefore neede not obaie the decrââ of Councells or that the Chââches authoritie is fallible Infallibââtie may be in others besides Scââpture The Apostles were not Scââpture yet were they infallible ânesses of the trueth The Churcâ the pillar and ground of trueth thoâ the Church be not Scripture 1. Timoth. 3. Thâ may be diuers Authorities infallâ and one of them Subordinate to ãâã other And so are these two accââding to this Author as you may âby the places represented in the a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota non tamen est eiân authoritate par sed subijcitur Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum quod non licet de ipsa dubitare eo quod testimoniuÌ Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectuÌ fidei Christianae legis latio scripturae canonicae Subijcitur tamen ipsi sicut testis iudici testimonium veritati sicut praeconâzatio definitioni sicut praeco regi Ibâdem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo saltem colore tuo decredere quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur fidei robur habet quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis Idem c. 25. margine One onely I will putt here because it serues also for that which followes In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed there where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church and amongst other things to this purpose hath these words Before the written Gospell this in the heart of the Church was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand in the controuersies whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull or subuerted by the Heretick whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians saying âow are our Epistle written in your hearts which is knowne and read of all men declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart And a litle after Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts be most certaine yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum a most certaine interpretation in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times foreuer according to that of the Prophet this is the testament which I will make to them giuing my lawes in their hearts and in their sense or minde I will write them I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae eius authoritas quantum hominum supergreditur rationem tantum fateor diuinâ legis authoritati succumbit sed tamen quaâ minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Waâd to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae semper credenda est si quandoqââ fallere consueta in omnibus est suspecta Ibidem the diuine law were vnto the faithfull * Non licet de ipsa dubitare c. vide in Addit of lesse authoritie if the Church did not preferre it And c Hoc est quod superius dixi quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae ipsa tamen taxabeâ se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa dicit Origenes Ibidââ howmuch soeuer the diuinâ scripture is higher then the decree of âhe Church ipsa tamen sensum eius âaxabit she notwithstanding shall deâne the sense wherein thou maiest not âold otherwise and whose interpretaââon to resist is as Origen speakes a âapitall offence So he AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo aniâo paterer ab haereticis non admitti sed illud tamen doleo veheâenter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur in quibus Thoâas Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc fid c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex âno Addit Baro c. 20. 21. SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now ââesent power to determine which ââe bookes of scripture And for this ââe cited three Chapters of his 2. ââoke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. âut there I finde it not He doth inâed hold that the Catholick Churh ââd no other is able to d Et hoc est secundum dictuÌ gloriosum de Ecclesia quod sc ipsa sola est cuius testimoniuÌ est tantae authoritatis praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturaruÌ taxare decoruÌ authoribus certificare possit fideles nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire wald li. 2. doct fid c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes ab Apostolis propagata testimoniuÌ certum reddit Ibidem Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credeÌdam sub poena contumaciae Ea dico quae praesens est quae iudicia directa
âse ioyning her present Authoriâ to that of the precedent ages ââose minde she doth enquire in ââe manner that so by consent of ãâã whole still errours be condemâd Neither is it necessarie to finde âat which she doth at anie time âopose vniuersallie professed by all âfore in plaine termes and expliciâ or to finde it in all bookes of thoâ times the Church informer ages âd not so wee take the same course âat she then did Secondlie you must âtend vnto the words cunctas aboleâe hath abolished all No one Counâll no one part as that which liued ãâã the second age or that which liâed in the third or fourth hath aboâhed and destroyed them all but ââe whole hath done it Thirdlie that âla is not * If sola be taken as you would haue it what will become of your triall by scripture onlie captiouslie to be stood vpon least you wrong the same Aâthor who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimonâ k so 3. doc 3. tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 c. he pleades so earnestlie both iâ the same place and in his seconâ booke Doct. Fid. in many chapterâ prouing it it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede yââ the Fathers of whose consent ãâã speakes in the place by you heeâ vrged be not the symbolicaââ Church properlie but onlie a parâ of it And in like manner wheâ speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit d. authoritie thaâ she can certifie who are authors oâ the bookes of scripture that soâ doth not exclude another authoritie that is within for example thâ vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to c. 26. and m Apudomnes Catholicos valet ligat vna sententia concors patruÌ maximè autem temporis longaeuâ patrum successione sirmata ita vt locuÌ fidei habeat De quacre âenda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas omnes tractatus definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patruÌ sententia ab ipsis ApostoloruÌ sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum id est ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua vetera li. 2. c. 25. els where but it excludes authoritie Without Fourthlie he doth noâ exclude generall Councells by thâ Christian world approued and hâ ât should in Sainct Augustines âes haue refused to subscribe to âh authoritie or disputed against ât which the vniuersall Church âhat age beleeued and tought he ât would not haue beleeued what âs by so great authoritie proposed âd bene thought madde rather then ârthie the name of man Fiftlie âher doth he exclude from infalâlitie and power to abolish heâes the Gospels and other parts scripture and yet these be not ât instrument or engine which he âakes of so that you cannot build ãâã argument on those words to âe infallibilitie awaie from all but ãâã Fathers Sixtlie notwithstanâg that Councells and the present âurch are infallible it may be said âthe consent of the Fathers or âhe whole symbolicall Church âh abolish all heresie because faith âre readilie giues assent vnto that âch is so vniuersallie proposed âderstandings not so well dispoâ before doe quicklie stoope in ãâã case to giue reuerence to the âh and such as doe not are condemned of all and so confoundâ that they dare no more openlie pâfesse their errour whence it coâ to passe that none making esteâ either of the doctrine or of thâ who stubbornlie doe persist in it degrees it is abolished And this one of those glorious prerogatiâ which Waldensis so much coÌmeâ in the Church Besides the foresâ readines in the vnderstanding whâ it is by grace well disposed or ãâã lesse repugnance to render obedieâ when it cannot with any shew pâtend reason for the refusall there dâ appeare too more fullie in tâ proponent the power of vniâ which is in it selfe a dispositioâ more plentifull participation of ãâã spirit and brings with it greaâ force to conquer opposition Vndâstandings well disposed yeild pâsentlie when the Councell speakâ when the present Church hath âceaued and vniuersallie approâ the Councell there is ex parte sâcti more adhesion and yet mâ when the consent of all former aâ is added and vnited and more ãâã there was in those that had Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti as the âchoolemen speake euidentiam in âttestante S. Marke knew the Gosâell which he wrote to be true yet âhat the faithfull more easilie might âeleeue it he had it n Vide to 1. doct 3. to 3. li. 2. c. 20. S. Hieron Catol script in Marco approued âs S. Hierom doth relate by S. Peâer S. Paul knew the truth in the âuestion moued at Antioch about âircumcision yet to make the creâibilitie more appeare and more conâincing he went with it to the CouÌâell at Hierusalem where it was o Act. 15. âefined And the Pastors there knewe too what was the truth yet âor the greater weight of Authoriâie they added testimonies of Scriâture The scripture many times ârings testimonies of scripture for confirmation as this Author showeth excellentlie to 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in conâirmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets When parts âre vnited Bishops in Councell particular Churches in the vniuersall whole ages in the Symbolicall âater with most Auncient all vnder âone eternall Word becomming one speaker and vttering in the language of all Nations as it were with one mouth in one spirit one and thâ same thing no man that perceaueâ it morallie can dissent This proponent hath a commaunding poweâ ouer a wise mans vnderstanding anâ it is a great engine to confound errour in which great engine he thaâ should denie there were many paâticular engines able to confounâ Heresie wronges diuers particulaâ in the companie vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem non qâdem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties errâ percepimus c. Baro p. 366. ex wald to 1. li. 2. c. 19. 4. FOurthlie to the same purposeâ of remouing infallibilitie froâ the present Church and Councellâ he is cited out of another place speaking thus The vniuersall Churââ hath faith which cannot faile not indeed assembled in a generall synâ which wee haue vnderstoode to haâ failed sometimes c. In which citaân abruptlie broken of for aduanâge the Authors speach is
manâd and the parts such as be reârsed are ill putt together so that ãâã intent and meaning cannot be âceaued as the learned reader ây obserue by looking on his ârds related in the p addition q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam geât homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost â 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum interâamentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi ãâã ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae temporibus Apostolorum vsâin sempiternum secundum quod per Prophetam dicit âminus hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges âs in cordibus eorum in sensibus eorum scribam eas Quod âonens Ambrosius ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui âris in cordibus leges affigit suas scribit in sensibus âihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus ãâã aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus Walden li. â 8 and continuing his discourse Haec est saies he Eccleââymbolica Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica Apostoââmater credentium populorum quae fidem habet indefect biâ âecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fiâm gessit Ecclesiae Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat âtua Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt âatus dixit Nec vtique particularis illa Romana sed âersalis Ecclesia non quidem in generali synodo conâata quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus velut illa âninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto illa Conâinopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam quaedam aliae sed est Ecclesiaâ Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos caeteros successores eorum aâ haec tempora deuoluta quae vtique veram fidem continet testimonium Christi fidele sapientiam praestaâ paruulis inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem c. 19. in principio That others also may conceaue the same it is to be obserued that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called thâ Church symbolicall Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter wickleffus contra Papam Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae appâlationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christânae de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Difficultas autem eius est ista Quanâ credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam taâquam fidem iterum credere debemus quòd quodliâ membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit meâbrum Ecclesiae credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere Haec Wicklef Actor Sub hoc globo verborum vnà cum praesumpto sââ Ecclesia symbolica c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo diâcultas de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae quam vtiâ credere debemus c. Ibidem Predestinate onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie doth auouch and according to Scripture Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12 Ephes 4. c. that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth in that sort that all may learne of it And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation * Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio It inuolues à Hierarchie Ephes 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers the predestinated only excepted do fall from the faith before they die or Societie Hierachicallie disposed Whence he determines it to be according to the words of the Creed it self the Catholike or Vniuersall Church that is the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan vntill our times and from henceforth vntill the end of the world and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testimonie of the faith of Christ the head and author is kindled Ibidem In which description by him there proued out of scripture and confirmed by the testimonie of S. Augustine he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie one loci of place another temporis of time as is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe And the benefit of this vniuersalitie heâ saith is vt t sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque habenâ doctrinam fidei that wee may knowe distinctlie as a communitie so vniuersall is found easilie which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith Heresies are limited as he shewes for time and place but the Symbolicall Church is both waies vniuersall And to it when heresies arise u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum muÌdum vnam habet doctrinaÌ Apostolicam omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recursum ipsi enim Apostoli cuÌ vna sana doctrina adhuc manente imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur Walden c. 18. fideles omnes debeâ habere recursum all faithfull must haue recourse as he saith in the next Chapter The reason is because she hath x c. 18. vt suprà ad lit q. in her heart the Gospell written by the holie Ghost together with a most certaine interpretation of the Christian lawe and also giues y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica id est quam tenemâ in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae addit enim Ecclesiâ sic dictae communiter id est communi rationi Ecclesiae ãâã omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta rationem vnius fidelis induâbitantis testimonij hoc ratione qua est vna Sic enim âcredimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam non quidem gente vel patria sed professione vnam fide de qua fide vnicum âcunctis gentibus reddit testimonium cap. 18. Nam hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam credere eam habere veram âfidem de Deo vera Sacramenta Ibidem Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti Ibidem Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit sc vltra authoritatem Scripturae Spiritus sancti reuelationem fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem
dicens Eccââgo vobiscum sum omnibus diebus Non dixit recum sum sc cum aliqua singulari persona sed vobiscum sum cum toâa Ecclesia Catholica Apostolica quae seduci non potest âec seducere habet fidele testimonium de Christo noâit omnia mysteria Sponsi sui cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. certaine testimonie to the truth Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate for instruction âor absolution for orders wee know not who they be nor how to finde theÌ out They be not the Symbolicall * wickliffs Argument The predestinate do perseuer in the faith Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church Is like this A mans soule is rationall Ergo a mans soule is a man Church they haue not all âhe conditions of it Neither is any âarticular Church or Congregation The Church symbolicall no not a Geâerall Councell A Councell is not âtill in being they be celebrated only sometimes whereas the Symbolicall Church is to be still So likewise is the Church diffused or Vniuersall Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes 4. And against a Councell or a particular Church he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it and it therefore at that time no Church for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio whereas the Church symbolicall is in ãâã times neuer failing which thing notwithstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall which is in ãâã times existent and in faith indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Tiâ 1. ep 3. c. Ephes 4. She only hath * The predestinated preciselie haue them not all See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. ãâã the conditions of and indeed is thâ symbolicall Church This construction of the wordâ of Waldensis to one that reads thâ whole discourse in him is plaiâ and obuious This which hetherto I haue described This I saie thâ Catholik and Apostolicall Church ãâã Christ the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient accordinâ to the promise of Christ to Peter ãâã âhen did beare the figure of the Church I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile is the symbolicall Church Hauing established this tenet he presentlie drawes from it an inference Non est ergo c. that being the vniuersall Church it is not anie particular as the African or the Roman particular Church or Dioces vide Disput pag. 619. ex Innoc 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuersall Neither it is a generall synod such haue erred sometimes one at Ariminum another at Constantinople and some others But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to thâse times which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith there is one thing required to the Symbolicall Church and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie but that is not all and testimonium Christi fidele the faithfull testimonie of Christ there is an other and the exercise of both followes giuing wisdome to the litle ones amongst extreame errours retaining the truth firme The Deuil by wickleff suggested pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion and Schisme Praescitus non habetpotestatem c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali Recitantur in Concilio Constant Sess 8. apud Wald. passim See aboue pag. 50. lit r. Here is the sence of his words to the full and for my part I see no more in them But you that can gase vpon chimeraes would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose the one that the Church of Rome may faile or erre and the other that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference nec vtique particularis illa Romana neither also is it the particular Roman Church the later vpon those other quam Synodum aliquoties errasse percepimus c. which Synod wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger and some other These two parcels then and his opinion in these two points are next to be considered I take them in order 5. Nec vtique aa Suprà ad lit q. particularis illâ Romana The forme of speach is negatiue and the author by it denieâ something of the Roman Church aâ âs a particular Church the Queâon since you will needs make a âestion of it is Whether he denies âo be the Symbolicall Church as it âeares he doth by what hath âne said of this place hetherto or âether he denies it perpetuall conâncie in the faith and indefectibiliâ In answer to which question if âu turne to the 48. Chapter whose âe is de praerogatiua perpetuae immuâatis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi âab omni bb contagione haeresis illibatae Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chriâna Romana est Ecclesia Ab hac enim praestatur huânae inertiae dirigendae assistriâ sapientia sedium diuinaân vt nobiscum sit nobiscum laboret vt sciamus quid âeptum sit coram Deo omni tempore Walden to 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu suo âsquisque varia meditatur inuenit nisi vno magistro âante vnus doceat paedagogus Ille puta quem ad hoc âcium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret Ego rogaâro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua Ibidem Et quid miâ si Christo rogante Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide âcere non est magnum Haeretice non est magnum vt âod per se caderet Christo sustentante non possit cadere âdem Ergo audacter dico in Christi nomine Christo âante Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse imâcabilem Ibidem Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccleâ tanta authoritas Mihi videtur ex concessione Chriâ ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis Primus enim confessor fuit diuinae generationis c. quomodo ergo ãâã dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur ãâã per quam totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse coâuincitur Ibidem you shall finde auouched anâ proued that Ecclesia Romana non pâtest in fide deficere the Church ãâã Rome cannot faile in the faith Aâ further I affirme boldlie in the naâ of Christ and Christ aiding the Româ Church that it is in the doctrine ãâã Christ impeccable The origen of thâ he refers there to our Sauiouâ prayer and his graunt and conclâding the Chapter he saith cc Ibidem vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. Pits
de biblioth wald Cyâ not without cause extolles the Româ faith when expounding those wâ portae inferi non praeualebunt teâ Peter quoth he it is said the gates ãâã Hell shall not preuaile against it ãâã Church according to this promiseâ our Lord the Apostolicall Church of âter remaines cleane from all misleadâ and hereticall circumuention aboue ãâã the Prelates and Bishops and aboue Primates of Churches and of Aposâ in her chiefe Pastors in most abundâ faith and in the Authoritie of Peâ and whereas other Churches are compâd with errour she alone established âmoueablie doth raigne imposing siâace and stopping the mouthes of all Heâtickes and wee by necessitie of saluation not by pride deceaued nor inebriaâd with the wine of pride doe acknowledge and professe openlie with her the âme of truth and Apostolicall tradition Hereby appeares what Walânsis thought of the Church of âome and by those words secunâm Domini professionem and those âabilita inquassabiliter he sawe which himselfe had professed dd Non potest in fide deficere vt suprà âefore that this immunitie and hoâour was to continue And by this ând much more which you may âade in that Chapter where the thing ãâã professedlie discoursed of I âaue as manifest that you did mistake him in your first pretenâe which was about the Church of Rome Non quidem generali Synodo conâegata quam ee SuÌprà ad li. q. aliquoties errasse ârcepimus velut illa Ariminensis ângregata sub Tauro praefecto illa âonstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano miâore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Bedam quaedam aliae Here againe you will haue the thing disputed what he denies of a synod and what he affirmes He denies that it is the symbolicall Church this is plaine by the coherence of the discourse as I declared before He affirmes of generall Synods that some haue erred as the Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the Ariminian vnder Taurus and some others Whence it followes that the Church so assembled is not the symbolicall Church for that neuer erreth Holie diuine faith is in her essence and therefore as her essence or being cannot faile no more can her faith She hath fidem indefectibilem such a faith as by reason of our Sauiours ff Matth. 16. care cannot be deficient and without exception of any time without admitting corruption to the preiudice of her integritie she retaines the truth euer gg Suprà pag. 49. steedfast whereas a Councell or assemblie may be corrupted and want integritie as appeares in those which he speakes of Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells as appeares by him in this place and elswhere some that are sincere some that are not That of Nice was sincere and was generall that of Constantinople vnder Iustinian was not sincere yet is it here putt in the number of those which he calls generall The infallibilitie of such as are sincere and approued by the successor of S. Peter the Pope wee maintaine the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall wee doe not Neither doth Waldensis contradict vs in the former part which is of the sincere and approued He saith indeed that some which goe by the name of generall haue erred you may adde if you please that others like them hereafter may But your argument will not hold Some therefore all Some men stagger in their faith men denie God sometimes you are not wise if you vnderstand this of all men or of wise men When Wickleff obiected as you doe hh walden to 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit scimus Ariminense Concilium peccauit Nicenum Thraciae the Ariminian Councell wee know did amisse and so did the Nicene of Thrace The author the same whose authoritie you are medling with answers peccauit vtique magnus exercitus Angelorum c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amisse yea and the holie number of Apostles euen in apostacie after they had receaued the faith before the comming of the holie Ghost the spirit of truth to teach them all truth and yet neither is the companie of other Angels therefore depriued of their felicitie nor the assemblie of the Apostles regularlie without doubt of the principalitie of the Church nor a generall Councell of its authoritie Thus in the 26. Chapter and in the next which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the matter whereof wee are disputing in these words Non dubitat Ecclesia sancta Dei toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authoritie be assembled in the name of Christ to resolue a doubt of faith This was not onelie certaine with him but it is he saith a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a matter out of question non dubitat she doubts not of it And a litle after Plenarijs Concilijs Ecclesiae si tamen maneant incorrupta Spiritus sanctus adest definit de fide The holie Ghost is present vnto plenarie or generall Councells of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect and doth define of faith And if this be so then not exteriour onlie as some would shift it of but interiour obedience is due to the decree for such obedience wee owe to the holie Ghost who is present assisting as was before said and as it is further heere expressed doth make the definition definit And consequentlie this Author had reason to saie as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards that it ii Multitudini ergo credentium est potius adhaereduÌ quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine coÌgregetur ab eius decreto vnanimi non nisi cum periculo declinatur c. 27. is daungerous to swarue from such decrees To this purpose in the Chapter whence you dispute he ponders those words of the first Councell assembled in Hierusalem which gaue the forme to all others and taught them how to vnderstand our Sauiours ll Ioh. 14. 16. promise It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. mm waeldendens to 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke saith he they said not it seemed good to the holie Ghost and the Church but to the holie Ghost and to vs who heere doe represent the Church and yet not to vs without the holie Ghost but to the holie Ghost in himselfe and to the * when this authoritie comes in the fortè sic and fortè noÌ haue no place The Holie Ghost cannot be deceaued What he doth auouch is most certaine Remouentur dubitationes Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghost in vs in the Church who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church Christ promising to her the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth And therefore what seemeth good to him the same
Panormitans doctrine of the Pope Councels and vniuersall Church or as the Minister speakes imbracing it Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd c. and hauing repeated them concludes haec ille So passing immediatlie to another Petrus de Ancharano c. without more adoe Yet since you will needes confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one one and the Deuine rather the matter appertaining to Deuinitie may deliuer it for them both which he doth in this tenour Antoninus m Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare ad quem pertinet quaestiones fidei determinare Quod quidem planuÌ est spectare ad Summum PoÌtificem S. Antoninus in summa p. 3. tit 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit Apostoli in Euangelijs Epistolis affirmaueruÌt in omni doctrina Petrum esse loco Domini Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo Quaeritur vtrum authoritas vniuersalis Ecclesiae in determinatione fidei principaliter resideat in Papa Respondet S. Thomas affirmatiue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Postquam aliqua essent authoritate vniuersalis Ecclesiae determinata si quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret haereticus censeretur Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur arbitror omnes fratres nostros coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum id est ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere caetera vsque finem vt habentur in S. Thoma loco cit S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuissent nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn relig To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints to whom it belongeth to determine questions touching the faith which manifestlie appertaines vnto the Pope n The question is whether the Authoritie of the vniuersall Church in determination of faith reside principallie in the Pope Saint Thomas they be Antoninus his words which I relate answers affirmatiuelie that after things be determined by the authoritie of the vniuersall Church if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination he should be esteemed an Heretick Which Authoritie is chieflie in the Pope And to this tenet of Saint Thomas Antoninus there subscribeth denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner or to call a Councell to this purpose without the Popes Authoritie o Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam vt caput quod est principale in Concilijs sed etiam reliquum corpus Ecclesiae vt alios Praelatos de quo Concilio inquit Propheta Non abscondi misericordiam tuam veritatem tuam à Concilio multo Idem tit 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head which is chiefe in Councels but the rest of the bodie withall as other Prelates Of which Councell the Prophet saith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell p A Concilijs vanitatis malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam veritatem sed non abscondit à Concilio multorum sc tendentium ad vnum c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one c. q Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles astringunt Idem eod tit cap. 2. in principio things constituted in such generall Councels oblige all the faithfull §. V. 1. Cusanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees 2. The words obiected out of him against vs are indeed plainely for vs as in the reading of them they are at leingth in the Addition it doth appeare CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa infallibilia quasdam conditiones requirit c. Baâo p 368. 1. CVSANVS This man is brought to teach vs and to teach the whole Church the conditions of a generall Councell as if none were good but such as he liked of and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke and a Finit collectio c. quam sacro huic Basiliensi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero nihil in omnibus veruÌ aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu assereÌs nisi quod ipsa sancta Synodus catholicum verum iudicauerit Cusanus in fine CoÌcordantiae suae Catholicae earnest for the Councell of Basill though he changed his minde b Vide eiusdem Epist ad Rodericum da Treuino afterwards Neither is the Question heere what be the conditions of a Councell but Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are necessarie and is by the Pope approued be assisted to the definition of the truth and be infallible in which matter wee shall easilie knowe Cusanus his minde In the third chapter which you cite he recites the words of Nicolas the first terming such decrees c Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inspiratas sententias sentences inspired by God And after of himselfe he saith d Ibidem si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum per Christum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praesidentem infallibiliter iudicatum If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost and iudged or determined by Christ praesiding in the middes of them that are assembled in his name This he declares in the Councell of Nice whereof the great e Conc. Chalc. act 1. Councell of Chalcedon saith that the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or sitt amongst the Fathers and ordaine the things which were there ordained And then concludes f Cusan c. 3. vt suprà talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia such haue bene all Councells orthodoxall As for the conditions he speakes of none which he thought necessarie be wanting in those generall Councells which wee maintaine The presence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik nor then neither but for the more fullnes of the Councell Others may be perfect which haue not all but that which hath all is he saith synodus g Ibidem perfectissima most perfect in that kinde One may haue the whole essence of a man all the essentiall parts and yet not be most perfect Our Councells are not made in secret they be assembled and openlie from all parts of the world wheresoeuer the Catholick Church is and such as come may freelie speake and are heard They looke into scriptures and former Councells and Antiquitie to finde the truth and though in the search it might appeare to
confirmed or approued Councells 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding to impugne one veritie with another veritie FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuersalem Ecclesiam representare Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam hoc est fideles omnes non errare at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc 5. c. 5. CANVS Is pretended to contradict vs though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie such as wee speake of adding withall that the contrarie is hereticall In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke where he treates of that controuersie his third conclusion is a Tertia Conclusio Concilium generale confirmatuÌ authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatuÌ Quam quidem conclusioneÌ ita explorataÌ habere opus est vt eius coÌtrariam haereticam esse credamus Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets Which he there proues with many reasons resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it 2. Hauing established that authoritie he disputes further whether ãâã Councell not confirmed by the Pope hatâ certaine and firme authoritie or no some learned men b Dubium excutiendum est an Concilium per legatos suÌmi PoÌtificis celebratum firmam certaÌque habeat authoritatem an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectaÌda sit vt certa habeaÌtur decreta CoÌcilij Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi doe affirme it because it represents the vniuersall Church which cannot erre Wherevnto Canus answers that the whole Church or an approued Councell which doth perfectlie represent it cannot erre but a part of either may c Ibidem The iudgment saith he of the greater part of the Councell though the Legates follow it is not certaine certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur but if it should be confirmed by the Pope it would be certaine And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance made for the same purpose d Ibidem euen as saith he that which seemeth good to the whole Church the same also seemeth good to the holie Ghost but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope 3. By the waie I obserue here two things one is that if an author interprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest the Church cannot erre of the whole or vniuersall Church it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells which are perfect representations of the Church diffused for this e Simile in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà Et nota post verba ab aduersarijs citata vt supa pag. 86. seqâi immediatè in authore sic igitur non ego admitto vt totum Concilium cuÌ legatis errare possit at errare poterit maior pââs Concâlij eâânti illi poteruÌâ le gatis subscribere Aâ que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus âudicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur non esse certum certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur Nec enim opus est quemad moduÌpaulò antè docuimus sententiaÌ Concilij omnes simul patres approbare Canus li. 5. c. 5 q. â man whom you cite for the former part doth also maintaine the later And the manner of arguing is indeed absurd because it would impugne one truth by another As if I should saie the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God therefore the first Chapter of it is not And were it admitted it would proue as before I said on the same occasion that euerie Apostle yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse yea and in the most fundamentall errour because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church The other thing which I obserue is that without sinceritie or conscience you doe make vse of mens words contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention which proceeding especiallie in matter of religion is inexcusable The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine §. VIII 1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in diuine assistance and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intelligâ possunt c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit c. ex Stap. 1. STAPLETON is brought as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells then Protestants doe because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtilities and questions indifferent vnto faith nor thinke it so ample in obiect as was that of the Apostles Where first it is to be considered that as in faith or science so likewise in assistance or infallibilitie more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing Mathematicall science in one is more extended then in another one knowes more conclusions then another doth yet is it in both of the same nature The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde as the Deuines teach though one by it knowes more another lesse Faith in vs and in the Apostles before and since the Incarnation is of the same nature but more extended in the Apostles then in vs and since the incarnation more generallie then it was before The like wee saie of assistance or infallibilitie in iudgment it hath been more extended in some then in others more at one time then at another Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles who did write scripture had infallibilitie in a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò siue noÌ necessariò pertinente pronunciare potuisset idquetanta certitudine vt non solum pastores essent fidelissimi sed etiaÌ magistri peritissimi omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent Staeplet de princip fidei Doctrinal li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus
vt non solum in doctrina sed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate niterentur peculiare hoc Deus esse voluit c. Ibidem all they did affirme whether the matter were dogmaticall or historicall whether substance or circumstance whatsoeuer they did affirme and put into the Scripture it is a truth But the infallibilitie of Councells is not so ample it is not so farre extended This Stapleton doth proue in the place obiected where hauing giuen the prerogatiue to that in sacred writers and Apostles he concludes b Natura nihilominus ac substantia potestatis ac certitudinis eadem est Ecelesiae nunc illius Apostolorum sicut fontis ac riuuli inde fluentis eadem est in specie bonitate naturali aqua nisi ab aliquo extrinseco immutetur quod his fieri non potest quia semper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magistrum tanquaÌ formaleÌ rationem puritatiâ synceritatis tam fontis quam riuuli successores habent queÌ Apostoli ipsi habebant licet in alio diuerso gradu IbideÌ the nature notwithstanding and substance of the power and certitude of the Church now and of that of the Apostles is all one All one in substance but In the Apostles euerie waie exact as reaching to the decrees and to the meanes oâ proofes and to the consequence oâ forme and to the circumstances all and this in all kinde of matter In the Successors not so farre exact nor in that extension or fullnes but in alio gradu in another an inferior a more limitted and contracted degree In the same c Apostoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam sapientientiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine Conseruare autem prius tradita c. quia non tam praeclara exacta sapientia indiget sed satis habet si diligenter acceptis âemel traditis insistat indefit quod Ecclesia succedens tanâa certitudine in ipsis medijs non dirigitur Neque enim ânta argumentorum certitudine opus est aperire expliâare quod virtute in semine fidei later aliudque ex alio âe lucere quam de nouo rem penitus ignoratam explorare ãâã docere Sic enim Philosophi c. atque haec vna causa âst quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipsa forma ratione âocendi successorum Ecclesia non desideret quantam âpsi Apostoli Stapl. doctr fidei cont 4. li. 8. c. 15. place to satisfie by the way another doubt you may finde cleerelie deliuered what some haue mistaken touching his minde in the * Metere quae alij seminauerunt exacta omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget sed satis est semel acceptis diligenter insistere Neque tanta certitudine opus est aperire explicare c. quam de nouo rempenitus ignoratam explorare Ex Staplet Relec. contro 4. q. 2. Relection those words tanta ând omnimoda or exacta which are âound there import in him a comparison not in the substance of the âertaintie or infallibilitie or assistance that as he said before is eadem the same but in modo in the quantitie manner and degree which âs diuers Out of which diuersitie in the manner and quantitie or extension it comes that the successors doe not reach vnto the meanes or ârguments and consequences and âacts and circumstances so vniuersallie with as ample and in euerie âne of those respects as immoueable a âertaintie as the first Masters and Planters of Religion and writers of the scripture did who were to âaie the foundation and by waie of âeuelation to deliuer what the Church in after times was to insist vpon Thirdlie it is to be considered that the Pastors in Councell according to this Author and as by their Acts you may perceaue doe proceed Sometimes as Deuines deducing or inferring one thing out of another and Sometimes as Witnesses of the faith and iudges of controuersie deciding and testifying the truth and proposing it to the world to be embraced and beleeued The former is a preamble to the later in which later it is alwaies infallible whether it be or be not so necessarilie and alwaies in the former from which further Question wee do heere abstract The reason is because their decrees are generallie proposed to all not to be seene or knowne scientificallie that waie were verie singugular the most part of Christians is not able to conceaue it but to be beleeued The d Ibidem Church saith thâ Author doth not teach ex arte sed ex authoritate not by art but by authoritie neither doth she conclude as it were by Theologicall science of God and diuine things but by the Pastorall powâ which from God she hath receaued sâ doth giue sentence or determine Our Sauiour did not open a schoole of science but of faith neither did he send his disciples to proue the Gospell but to preach it And teach indeed he bid them but so as by testifying and preaching they should doe it not by proueing or disputing e Ecclesiae pastoribus magistris decerneÌtibus creditur non quia legitimè probarunt quod decernuÌt sed quia apertè decernuÌt tradunt sic esse credendum siue decretuÌ suum ex legitimis medijs probasse nobis coÌstet siue non Haec enim est obedientia fidei de qua disseruimus Ibidem Fourthlie it is to be considered that the infallibilitie of the Church-decrees depends vpon the f Ioan. 14. promised assistance which was not to all veritie possible nor to all that is actuall neither but to reuealed onlie docebit vos omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero is the promise The spirit of truth the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you To things not reuealed the promise was not extended The course was taken for bearing in minde and vnderstanding the lesson which Gods eternall Word hath giuen and whatsoeuer in this kinde the Church doth determine and propose to the faithfull to beleeue is true Neither can she propose any thing in this manner which is not indeed such as she declares it to be she hauing diuine guidance and assistance in euerie such act This which you denie Stapleton doth teach g Stapl. Relect cont 4. q. 2. not 4. Ecclesia in conclusione fidei semper est certissima infallibilis Marke that semper the Church in the conclusion of faith is alwaies most certaine and infallible So that if you finde any thing declared by the Church to be de fide it is according to his tenet most certaine and may no further be disputed And in another h Staplet de princip si contr 4. li. 8. c. 15. place Ecclesia quia non ratione sed authoritate assistentia prouidentia diuina nititur eamque infallibiliter promissam habet nec prater veritatem nec erroneè nec contra Deum vllo modo decernere
they who condemned and opposed the whole Catholike Church did withall sleight the authoritie of her Councells as Pagans also doe but he was to proue it by a principle which they reiected not Neither doth it followe that Councells therefore in themselues are not worthie of beleefe or infallible in their assertion or that S. Augustine did not esteeme them so when to conuince the Donatists he tooke his argumeÌts froÌ the Prophets to confirme or proue the foresaid point S. Peter heard a voice from Å¿ 2. Petr. 1. heauen testifying of our Sauiour yet he confirmes it the same way firmiorem babemus Propheticum sermonem wee haue the prophets words which yet confirme vs more and our B. Sauiour though most worthie of credit as being the truth it selfe confirmed his resurrection and other mysteries to the Disciples by the same t Ipse Dominus Iesus cuÌ resurrexisset à mortuis discipuloruÌ oculis videndum manibusque tangeÌdum corpus suum offerret ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur magic eos testimonijs legis propherataruÌ psalmoruÌ confirmandos esse iudicauit ostendens ea de se impleta quae fuerant tanto antè praedicta S. Augu. de vnit Eccles c. 16. meanes One testimonie as I said before vpon the like occasion doth illustrate another and many ioyned together doe more easilie master our vnderstanding and make it yeeld obedience to the truth For the better comprehension of S. Augustines minde in this matter I will adde a word or two more touching this waie of discouering a truth in Religion suppose it be whether Iesus be the Messias and Redeemer of the world or whether this or that congregation be the Church of the Messias For the notice of the former of these two reade the Prophets where you shall finde that a Messias shall come that he shall be borne in Bethlem preach doe miracles be resisted and reiected by the Iewes who were keepers of these bookes of Prophesies be persecuted scourged put to death pierced and after death rise againe and be acknowledged and adored by the Gentiles This you reade there and it is a good direction but this is not all You must finde out the man to whom this description doth agree and in the comparison of them both together the man Iesus with the circumstances of his birth life and death to the propheticall description and the Prophesie to the man in this comparison I say you knowe that which you looke for vizt that Iesus is the Messias and redeemer of the world when you would get knowledge of the later viz. which companie is the Church you first take notice of a companie of people professing one faith in all Nations beginning at Hierusalem defending it by her Pastors u Vt omittam sapientiaÌ syncerissimaÌ quaÌ in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis multa sunt alia quae in eius gremio me iustissimè teneant Tenet consensio populorum atque gentium tenes authoritas miraculis inchonta spe nutrita charitate aucta vetustate firmata tenet ab ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas post resurrectioneÌ Dominus coÌmendauit vsque ad praesentem episcopatum successio sacerdotum tenet postremò ipsum Catholicae nomeÌ c. S. August cont Epist. Fundamenti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxilium Dei tantum profectuÌ fructumque videamus dubitabimus nos eius Ecclesiae coÌderegremio quae vsque ad confessionem generis humani ab apostolica sede per successiones episcoporuÌ frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus partim plebis ipsius iudicio partim conciliorum grauitate partim etiam miraculorum maiestate damnatis culmen authoritatis obtinuit cui nolle primas dare vel summae profecto impietatis est vel praecipitis arrogantiae S. Aug. de vtil credendi c. 17. in Councells and otherwise offering to God euerie where Sacrifice or oblation leading an innocent life in exteriour profession and confirming with miracles her beleefe and doctrine but this alone so abstracted from the increate authoritie doth not breed an act of diuine beleefe that this companie is the Church of God wherefore you goe further and in the Prophets and other parts of the Bible reade a description of the Church diffused ouer all the world beginning at Hierusalem with power to meet in Councell and assistance of the Spirit offering to God in all Nations a cleane oblationâ disposed Hierarchicallie with her watchmen euer on her walles heâ Pastors readie to maintaine the truth and attending carefullie to the flock that by Errour they be not circumuented and then comparing one of these vnto the other vizt the companie to the prophesie the prophecie to the companie in the comparison you finde and beleeue with an act of diuine faith the true Church It is this as I conceaue which S. Augustine points at in the place before cited when he saith our Sauiour confirmed the faith oâ his resurrection by testimonies oâ the Prophets x S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 16 ostendens ea de sâ impleta que fuerant tanto ante praedicta shewing those things to be fulfilled of him which so longe before were forâtold And to this end he shewed hiâ hands and side when he did appeare after his resurrection Which brought his disciples in minde of foderunt manus meas pedes meos aspicient ad me quem confixerunt they haue digged my hands and my feete they shall looke vpon me whom they haue pierced and the rest mouing them to faith and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound in his Master found God How to finde the Church in this manner you haue beene tould y Disp li. 2. els-where Looking all about on the world and into monuments of antiquitie you see a great companie of people reaching from the Apostles time and stretched out into all Nations communicating with the See Apostolike in the profession of one and the same Religion and holding out a booke to all that will reade it You reade and obserue And considering the companie you percaue the booke is a prophesie for being written long before the companie was extant it doth describe it perfectlie and foretels the comming of it with diuers particulars that come not of necessitie but of election and free choise considering the booke you perceaue the companie to be the Church for there you finde it so deliuered and affirmed by him that made the booke Disp p. 177. who foreseeing things future many ages before they came to passe certainly foretold of it and is worthilie belieued as hauing such an infinite foresight and certaine comprehension of all kind of things future ET ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano fine vllis
superare Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium sedesque ipsas Apostolorum arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam per pauciores piè doctos verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit S. Aug. Epist ad Diosc 56. reason against the Church to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe And by the like stratagem did the pagaÌs heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt as they pretended could be made of it which was a way they thought to get qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatio quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor Si autem tantummodo promittitur non exhibetur nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit S. Aug. contra Epist Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promittebaâ scientiam veritatis nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam c. 5. Multò iustiùs cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi ad te non transeo nisi me non credere iusteris sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es dimitte Euangelium Si ad Euangelium me tenes ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam Qua infirmata iam nec Euangelio credere potero c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam Ibidem schollers but it proued a meere bragge §. X. 1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries who refused to submitte them selues to the Church to be tryed by the Testament admitted by themselues But the cause it self was in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world to be decided in a Councell and was in fine so determined 2. For finding out the truth in matter of faith recourse is to be made to the fountaine VOs dicitis licet nos non licet inter licet vestrum non licet nostrum nutant remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat nemo nobis omnes contentiosi homines sumus Esto Quaerendi sunt iudices si Christiani de vtraque parte dari non possunt quia studijs veritas impeditur Deforis quaerendus est Iudex si paganus non potest nosse Christiana secreta si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis Ergo in terriâ nullum de hac re reperiri poâerit iudictum de caelo quaerendus est Iudex Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum Baro p. 328. ex Optato 1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine he will vndertake for vs to satisfie that you bring from Optatus and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists this great Doctour doth answer yea the a S. Aâg contra Donatiâtas passim Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. li. 1. coât Cresc c. 31. 32 whole Catholike world did agree that the matter was to be defined in Councell and that not by cleere scripture there was none but by tradition By the testament yes not the written but the nuncupatiue By the holie Ghost c S Aug suprà inter citat ex Ock lit 1. a iudge from heauen but speaking b in a Councell The whole world did iudge that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes was to be determined so and accordinglie it was so determined and ended Neither doth Optatus denie that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote graunted and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c Serpit corum sermo vâlut cancer dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina c. Dictum est hoc de Arrio cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat Optat. Milleu li. 4. Nicene Councell of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it that the Church which hath promise of assistance or the Pastors all assembled in a CouÌcell those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion But the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes as parties in the cause he betakes himselfe to scripture against which being admitted on both sides that pretended exception had no place children that contend about a Legacie both admit their father testament and if there his words decide the controuersie they rest and so he pleades the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed vnles they proceede as they had denied Church-authoritie so to denie that and him So on he goes to shewe the thing inscripture But what if the words of the testameÌt be obscure The matter then requires a Iudge and this Iudge must haue authoritie and assistance if the case be as this was about diuine faith which assistance none hath but by vertue of our Sauiours promise and his promise was made to none but to the Church not to Pagans nor heretikes but to the Church wherefore the Church is to iudge Yet further what if the words of the testament haue it not at all the question was Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church The answer to which Question you doe not finde in scripture the d Qui lotus est c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies an e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum c. S. Aug. li. cont Cresc c. 33 vt suprà Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduÌtur quanquam scripta non reperian tur li. 5. de bapt c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos c. De vnitate
thus if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg And antiquitie thus if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended and Censent likewise if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all or neere all the priests and masters in Antiquitie And d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab vniuersalis fidei communione praeciderit quid vtique nisi vt pestisero corruptoque meÌbro sanitatem vniuersi corporis anteponats quod si nouella aliqua coÌtagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur locum hunc corruperuÌt Wittaker Vitus haeretici tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat quae prorsus iaÌ non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominuÌ vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur Tunc omnino curabit vt paucoruÌ temeritati vel inscitiae fi qua sunt vniuersaliter antiquitus vniuersalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat Quid si tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter se MaioruÌ coÌsulat interrogeâque sententias eorum duÌtaxat qui diuersis licet teÌporibus locis in vnius tameÌ Ecclesiae Catholica communione fide permanentes magistri probabiles extiterunt quicquid noÌ vnus aut duo taÌtum sed omnes pariter vno eodemque coÌsenââ apertè frequeÌter perseueranter tenuisse scripsisse docuisse cognouerit id sibi quoque intelligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum Vinc Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke there had been three generall Councells whose decrees though not made the * Nicenum anno 325. first of them much more then a hundred yeeres before him he âumbers amongst the records of anâiquitie which are to be looked into And in like manner the decrees maâe 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs âake place and order in the records âf antiquitie respectiuelie to our times the distance of precedence âeing more then was the distance of any Councell precedent respectiuelie vnto him You are further to obserue that âo the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Christian religion some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Trinitie others denied the Incarnation the greatest mysteries were not Catholick in this sense neither doth âhe require that a point or veritie which is Catholik be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times the Catholick Epistles in this sence e Vide Disp pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times were not all Catholick but his meaning is as I insinuated before that a sence or veritie appertaining to faith which is beleeued by the Symbolicall that is by the vniuersall catholike Church either allwaies or at any time for it can neuer erre in diuine faith or which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught and professed or which hath beene defined by all or neere all the Pastors those which are to teach in a generall councell is to be receaued as a Catholick sense Twice in that little booke herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting either in Councell or out of Councell and by vniuersalitie and in both places the definition of generall Councells and their authoritie comes in As in the 38. chapter where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth in this case saith he Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie antiquitie and consent of the Catholick Church And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole noueltie against antiquitie or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all or at least of farre more Catholikes let them preferre the integritie of the whole before the corruption of the part And in the same whole the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie as also in antiquitie it selfe let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe f primuÌ omnium generalia si qua sunt vniuersalis coÌcilij decreta praeponant tuÌc deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum atque magnoruÌ consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Vincent Lirin c 38. first of all if any be the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell then after if that be not let theÌ followe that which is next to wit the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themselues In the next chapter he tells what Fathers those must be whose opinions wee take they must be g Idem c. 39. orthodoxe such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion and remaining constant haue died in Christ or happilie bene put to death for him and those he saith are so to be beleeued that what soeuer either all or the greater part haue established or confirmed receauing holding or deliuering with one and the same meaning manifestlie oft constantlie as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted And againe in the h Idem c. 40. next Hos in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora loca dispensatos quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit non hominem contemnit sed Deum He that contemnes these fathers diuinelie distributed according to times and places in the Church of God agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of doctrine he contemneth not man but God So greate hee esteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and masters which God hath dispensed not at one but in seuerall times and yet the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell with him haue i c. 38. vt suprà the precedence primum omnium generalia si qua sint vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant tunc deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a second time the same matter of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie consenting in Councell or out of Councell where he speakes yet more home k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetustaâe duo quaeâam vehementer studioseque obseruaÌda quibus penitus inhaerere deberent quicunque haeretici esse nolunt PrimuÌ si
quâd antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum Deinde si qua noua c. c. 41. ExeÌpluÌ adhibuimus SaÌcti CoÌciliâ quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued quibus wherevnto all those must adhere steedfastlie that will not be hereticks why do you start first of all if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell by all the Priests of the Catholick Church and next if any new question should arise wherein that were not found recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike doctrine of the Church Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall be two other rules wherevnto all that will not be flat heretiks must of necessitie conforme themselues the decrees of oecumenicall Councells and the vniforme consent of Fathers I leaue you now to compare your condition with his opinion What he deliuers in this matter is not his doctrine alone c. 1. That you conceaue him the better he presentlie brings for instance or example the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus held l c. 42. three yeares no more before he wrote this booke wherein Nestorius was condemned the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please It is worth the noting by the way for it is your practise too and indeed of all hereticks that Nestorius as he relates in the end of the chapter renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies affirming m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare semper errasse Ecclesiam that the whole Church euen now in the time of the Councell doth erre and alwaies hath erred In the last chapter of all he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine concludes his booke If neither Apostolicall definitions nor Ecclesiasticall decrees whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie all Heretikes euer and in fine Pelagius Caelestius Nestorius haue been deseruedlie condemned be to be violated it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-mother-Church be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers and so insist that they die in it and that they detest abhorre speake against persecute the prophane nouelties of prophane men §. XIII Exceptions against a text or two refuted THE last Opposition which you make is against two of the places of Scripture which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie These also least you conceaue there is difficultie I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large and then make an end The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance made vnto the Church The Spirit of Truth when he comes shall teach you all truth Ioan. 14. 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise as it was vnderstood by the Apostles who relying on it met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. Against the former place you saie first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie This is false for it is foreuer I will aske my father and he will giue you another comforter that he remaine with you for euer the Spirit of truth And apud vos manebit he shall remaine with you Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie which cannot subsist without his Spirit and for confirmation and illustration of her faith not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone but euer since after they be gonne she needs assistance of the Spirit Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort non relinquam vos orphanos Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans O father establish confirme sanctifie them in the truth I aske not for them onlie Ioh. 17. the Apostles but for the Church for those which by their word shall beleeue in me That by thy prouidence for my sake in our Spirit all be as it were one and agree to their proportion as wee doe who doe iudge and approue still the same But tell me hath the Spirit left the Church or is he still in it if he hath left it how hath she supernaturall operations how doth she beleeue the diuine word how doth she subsist as the Gospell saith she shall notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it it is then true that the promise holds still euen that which was made vnto the Church in the Apostles time and began first to be fulfilled in them The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two one of God the Father to send his sonne to redeeme the world the other of God the Sonne to send the holie Ghost his spirit to teach and instruct his Church if you doe not beleeue the later is performed you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too and not trust God at all in his promise nor in his couenant neither though so farre you trust one another Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. I will giue my lawe in their bowels and in their hart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people My Spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth Isa 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord from this present and foreuer See the Disp li. 3. Secondlie you saie that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points or doctrine by our Sauiour reuealed and deliuered vnto the Church but of some points onlie âhose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed and not necessarilie of all those neither Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church For if the holie Ghost teach no more by the promise of our Sauiour then those fewe points it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities though they be necessarie to be knowne
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put âo silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and âhould it preuaile in all as it might âf the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall âot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌt of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâhanasius if you beleeue it too then âecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour âaught many things to the Church âoth before his passion and after his âesurrection which are not expresâed in the Apostles Creede whereunâo you think only assistance is exâended Reade the Gospell of S. âohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâhewe and you shall finde this to be âue And these things also the Spiâit according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâo you which you cannot beare nowe âut when he the Spirit of truth comes âe shall teach you all truth for he shall âot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌââ which without assistaÌce of the holie Ghost caÌnot be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse ãâã demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oââ Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.
by occasion of your discourse in the Councell of Chalcedon six hundred Fathers together acknowledging diuine assistance to the Nicene so farre that the Decrees they said could not be retracted without 1 Si ergo Spiritus SaÌctus coÌsedit Patribus vt manifeste consedit ordinauit que ordinata sunt qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam SaÌcta Synodus dixit Omnes haec dicimus Anathema qui retractat Conc. Chalced. Acti 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghost And others accordinglie saie they were 2 S. Leo Epist 53. 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained 3 Si quis fidem illam à saÌcta magna Synodo optimè diuino afflatu definitaÌ ac expositam dicere voluerit basim animarum nostraruÌ fundamentum que inconcussum munitum is vtique probatissime loquitur Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill Alexand Suis auteÌ verbis à nobis scribatur diuinuÌ sanctissimum Synodi illius Oraculum IbideÌ Vide S. Ambros li. 1. de Fide ad Gratian. oracles of faith It sufficeth to make instance in that one being the first oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apostles daies to shewe that it stopped not in them but was continued after their the Apostles time vnto the Church And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the second and the third and fourth the decrees of which 4 li. 1 Regest Epist 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter veâeror Ibidem S. Gregorie our Apostle did honour as the Gospels and so also to the rest by vertue of one and the same Promise made absolutelie to the Church Vpon which promise that also of the Apostles did relie as before hath been obserued Moreouer the Fathers held that the definitioÌs of oecumenicall CouÌcells might not be called into a Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema ââqui reâractat De rebus apud NicaeaÌ apud Chalcedonam definitis nulluÌ audemus inire tractatum tanquaÌ dubia vel infirma sint quae tanta per Spiritum sanctuÌ fixit authoritas S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem sententiam doubt that they were rather to loose their b S. Ambros epist 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian liues then to denie them that those who did oppugne them were c Nullo modo fieri potest vt qâi diuinis aâdent contradicere sacramentis aliqua nobis communioâe socientur S. Epist 78. PatâfacieÌtes in omnibus probantes non esse omnino inter Catholicos computandos qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae vel sancti ChalcedoneÌsis Concilij regulas noÌ sequuntur Ibidem not Catholikes but d S. August de Haeres nu 69. S. Basil epist. 78. S. Athanas epist ad Epict. Vincent Lyri c. 41. heretikes And the Councels themselues did e Conc Nice Ephesin c. anathematize all that reiected or dissented from them Now by these anathematismes and excommunications by the deepe censure and branding with the note of Heresie by the deniall of the name of Catholike to such as did stubbornelie contradict oecumenicall definitions by the knowne custome of the Pastors in all ages and cases of greatest difficultie when soeuer they could with safetie meete in Councell to define sub anathemate and to oblige all to conformitie without further dispute or doubt they being the men whom our Sauiour hath giuen to teach his people and establish theÌ in the truth by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vniuersall Church in all times to the Pastors so teaching manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees and conformable profession of the faith by the esteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells whereof in Saint Augustine I gaue an instance in the case of S. Cyprian and by the Apostles practice in regard and contemplation of the promise together with their reall interpretation of it the meaning of those words The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth and He gaue Pastors and Doctors that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine is so discouered and the tradition of assistance and direction afforded to Councels oecumenicall in their decrees of faith so confirmed that a weaker sight then yours may discerne it You may further call to minde that the Councels wherein the Controuersies betwixt the Protestants and vs are defined be receaued by the whole Church and by it vniuersallie approued Wherefore had any of those you name told you that an oecumenicall Councell might mistake and erre the decrees of faith made in these Councels as in that of Trent for example had still beene according to their iudgment notwithstanding to be admitted because the Vniuersall Church hath receaued and approued them And you opposing them do oppose not a Councell onlie but the Catholike and Vniuersall Church and the Spirit in her the Spirit of truth remaining in and with her to teach her all truth That this is the Catholike Church and not yours nor the whole companie of such as professe themselues Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks you see proued and defended f Disp of the Church elswere If your Spirit be disposed to contradict it bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles all men purelie Orthodox according to the new straine without any defect or superstruction whose tenents intirelie be * The Vniuersalitie of the Church and the long Communion of the Graecians and other Nations with it is demonstrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals and briefelie in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. 148. By the Church thus Vniuersall in her flourishing time the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies which made against the fundamentall articles of Christianitie and the coÌmon Creede were you know coÌdemned and such as abbetted theÌ were cut of froÌ CoÌmunion lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Councels of Ephesus and Chalcedon Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion any Nations or People howeuer great approuing and maintaining either of these Errours Such as were the Nestorians Armenians Iacobites Abassins and Aegyptians or Cophti as appeares by Photius Damascen Euthymius Nicephorus Prateolus Guido Baronius Miraeus Godignus and others Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome as the Grecians Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius Platina Chalcondas Gordonus See also Miraus Not. Episc li. 1. c. 18. but you must finde a time when they neither held with vs nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies but were entirelie Protestant or Orthodox in your sence And the Catalogue must represent vnto vs in all Ages some of these so many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuersall Church If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuersie the greatest and most Vniuersall And that Arians Nestorians Iacobites Armenians and others going out of it to subsist by themselues neuer could arriue any of them to that Vniuersalitie Where you will finde or feigne your ProtestaÌt more Vniuersall Congregation or of what kind of men or what fantoms rather it doth consist wee shall know when your descriptioÌ of the Spaces Imaginarie comes out in print What is to be obserued in the drawing of your Catalogue hath beene partlie told you in the Disp lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. currant there and iustified by you their children and this continuallie euer since the Apostles daies with Pastors lawfullie ordained Proue that yours was and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Councels condemned Heresies conuerted Nations c. Meane while and euer for this taske will be neuer donne wee do securelie subscribe to the Decrees of Councels oecumenicall approued and receaued generallie by that CoÌmunitie out of which your Father Luther went and do not doubt at all to imbosome our selues in that Church which by SuccessioÌs of Bishops froÌ the See Apostolike hath euen to the acknowledgment and confession of mankind obtained the top of Authoritie Hereticks in vaine barking round about and condemned partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people partlie by the grauitie of Councels and partlie by the maiestie of miracles To which Church not to giue the prize it is verilie either extreame impietie or foole-hardie presumption
he doth expound it repugnantes some repugnant to other and if in his iudgment they be repugnant you haue no reason to conceaue he doth approoue them all Thirdlie he doth not name any Catholike author holding that assertion which you speake of or the rest which followe but tooke them out of (b) Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. Ochams Dialogues whence he (c) Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. 35. cum Quaestione Vesperiali Quaestione de Resumpta Petri Camer transcribes and some times verbatim diuers peeces of these questioÌs which you would make vse of Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vse of reason erring possiblie all together against faith which Ocham himselfe had said was false and the reasons for it those which Ockam giues he calls apparentes seeming yet himselfe in the end of this Question (d) Ex praedictis sequuntur aliquae propositiones corollariae Prima est quod semper in Ecclesia vniuersali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei Secunda est quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures iusti formati virtute speâ Tertia quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia c. Quast Vesper contradicts it and maintaines the contrarie EX sacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur Baro p. 363. ex Alliac Quaest Vesp Concilium generale poteâ defformari legi Christi idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Resumpta Ecclesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliuâ sicut pars à toto potest haereticari Ibidem ex eadem quast 2. THe second thing obiected is that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the vniuersall is alwaies free from errour whence is inferd that in his opinion it caÌnot be conuinced out oâ Scripture that a generall Councelâ is alwaies free I answere first weâ maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall Secondlie it is one thing to saie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition and an other thing to saie that wee can proue this by Scripture it is one thing to saie the Epistle of S. Iames hath sacred authoritie and another thing to saie that by Scripture you can proue it Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull Councells could not be proued ex âacra Scriptura by Scripture it doth âot follow that he denied their inââllibilitie Thirdlie what he saith in âhat Question is deliuered they be (e) Haec dicta sint de tertia conclusione suis adiunctis de tota ista quaestione solùm disputatiuè non assertiuè Petrus Camer Quaest de Resumptâ sine his owne words disputatiuè ââon assertiuè by waie of dispute not ây waie of affirmation wherefore if âou wronge him not you must not âie he held that Councells infallibiâtie such Councells as had all conâtions necessarie could not be proâed yea and against a stubborne ââuersarie sufficientlie conuinced âut of Scripture Fourthlie this which âas said not assertiuè but onelie disââtatiuè he submitted to the iudââment (f) Non est ergo quò securiùs fugiam quaÌ filius ad matreÌ filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Ecclesiam c. Ad hanc igitur coÌfugiens sua lege regulari ââpiens me dicta mea omnia suae suorum filiorum tam âsentium quam absentium charitatiuae correctioni committo âsub hac alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas supâco haberi pro repetitis gratia breuitatis ad quaeâonis responsionem accedo Idem Quaest Vesper in prinââ of the Church therely reâacting or disauowing according ãâã the manner of the schooles yet in ââe what in this disputation might âârchance escape amisse either for ââe substance or the manner of his speech And finallie being after much more studie and reading of Scriptures publikelie in the nature oâ Professor made Bishop and Cardinall he was called to the Counceâ of (g) Acta Conc. Constant Sess 20. Constance and there witâ the rest of the Bishops he sufficientlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what ãâã generall Councell and particularlâ that of Constance did declare touching faith If you reade the interrogatories made (h) Interrogetur vtrum credat quod illud quod sacrum ConciliuÌ Constantiense vniuersalem Ecclesiam repraesentans approbauit approbat in fauââ fidei ad salutem animarum quod hoc est ab vniueââ Christi fidelibus approbandum tenendum quod ãâã demnauit condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus ââtrarium hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato âdendum asserendum Martinus quintus approbante Ceâ Constantien vtrum credat sententiam sacri Const Conâ supra 45. articuli Ioan. Wicklef Ioan. Hus latam ãâã re veram Catholicam c. Ibidem there by thâ Pope sacro approbante Concilio yâ will not vrge him any more in thâ matter TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum virorum pâ à vera fide deficere Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Quaââ Resumpta Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit âctis âeis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae denââionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis verbi âauâa Ecclesia Clericorum Ecclesia Italicorum Ecclesia Galliâorum c Ex Scriptura sacra non conuincitur quod semper sit âliqua talis siue consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis reâulae conformetur Idem ex eadem Quaestione 3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be said in answere to the rest âbiected out of him and particularââe vnto that of the Clergie where he âeemes not to haue then well reflected on those words of S. Paul who âoth testifie and his testimonie is in âhe Scripture that our Sauiour coÌstiâuted and (i) Ephes 4. gaue Pastors and Doctors âo the consummation of the Saincts vnto âhe worke of the ministerie vnto the ediâing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee âeete all into the vnitie of faith that âe be not children wauering and caried âbout with euerie winde of Doctrine The like wee reade in Esaie vpon (k) Esay 62. thy walls o Hierusalem I haue appointed watchmen all the daie and all âhe night for euer they shall not hold âheir peace And other places there âre to this purpose verie plaine that âânnot be auoided Neither did he finde himselfe able ãâã satisfie the argument taken from the nature of a Hierarchie and the acts pertaining to it that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilst it lasts that is all daies till the consummation of the world which argument is there brought and he doth endeuour but