meaning thereof from your Church and although we haue the most cleare testimonies of the Scriptures against you yet ye set light thereby and all because your Church cannot erre and you expound them otherwise Therefore there is by your doctrine no rule left for a man to build his faith vppon but the exposition of the gouernours in the Church Aunswere me directly vnto this were there not false Prophetes in olde time among the people of the Iewes Pa. The Scripture doth shew that there were somtime a great number at once and the Church of God did euer condemne them Pro. But tell me how did the people know who were the true Prophets and who were the false the one side commeth and they say thus saith the Lord no saith the other side that is false thus saith the Lord quite contrary to the other and not only at some times a multitude of false Prophets against one true seruant of God but also the high Priestes and other Priests and gouernours in the Church taking part with them against the true Prophet Where was then your golden rule which ye would haue the common sort to measure their faith by I beleeue as the Church beleeueth I cannot iudge I must not meddle with the meaning of the Scriptures Pa. Proue this which you haue sayd it is an easie matter to affirme and you are ready to doe that but your proofes come slowly Can you shew that the high Priests and gouernours in the Temple did ioyne with the false prophets against the true Prophet Pro. They come a little faster then you would gladly haue them or else you would not be so calme if there were but a little matter of colour against vs for want of proofe you would set vp your bristles by and by and you would crowe but when the matter brought out doth choke ye then ye say there is nothing brought ye bid me proue that whē there were false Prophets and that sundry against one they had the Priests and rulers of the Church on their side Reade Ieremias the Prophet ye shall find the false Prophets against him and the Priests also and euen as you say against Luther and other which imbrace the holy Gospell they be heretikes the Pope cannot erre so say they for themselues against Ieremias Iere. 18. come let vs imagine some deuise against him for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor the counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophete Were the godly people now which forsooke the Priests Iere. 1. Princes and Prophets and gaue eare to Ieremias apostats Did not the Lord tell him at the first when he sent him that he should haue the people the Priests and Princes against him Also ye may see it very fully and plainely expressed Iere. 20. that Pashur the Priest which was appointed chiefe in the house of God did smite Ieremias and put him in the stockes when hee heard him prophesie here was a right Pope a stoute Bishop that durst set Gods Prophet in the stockes This thing is set foorth in sundry places of the Prophets how the Priests the false Prophetes were linked together against the true messengers of the Lord. For ye may see how the Priests and Prophets and people lay hold on Ieremias Iere. 26. and would haue put him to death for the Priests Prophets accused Ieremias before the Princes that hee was worthy of death Eze. 22. The Prophet Ezechiel also complaineth grieuously of the Priestes and the Prophets Also long before the time of Ieremias Ezechiel the Lord complayned of the Priestes and Prophetes for their wickednesse For thus he saith by Mica Mica 3. the Princes iudge for bribes the Priests teach for reward and the Prophets do prophesie for money Behold also what God complaineth against the Priests and Prophetes euen in the dayes of the most godly king Iosia as ye may reade in the Prophet Sophanie Sopha 3. Likewise where the holy Ghost sheweth the cause of the great destruction which came vpon Hierusalem 2. Chro. 36 he saith that al the chiefe Priests and people committed many transgressions according to all the abhominations of the heathen and defiled the house of God which he had sanctified in Hierusalem how God sent vnto them his Prophetes but they would not heare them See then if the wickednesse of the Priests draw the Lord out of his Temple vnto which he had made so glorious promises and which he had chosen to be the place where he would be worshipped shall we now tie him to that chaire from which there haue come the most horrible villanies against God almost that euer were committed in the world shall we say that the most pure most holy God hath fastened himselfe to the mother of whoredomes and abominations Pa. Ye take great paines to small profit for a man may in a word ouerthrow all that you haue built ye haue shewed how the Priestes and gouernours in the Temple did corrupt their wayes and ioyned with the false Prophetes against the true messengers of the Lord. You gather out of this that there was no rule left in the Church for the people to trie the worship and seruice of God by but this conclusion of yours doth not follow because the corruption of maners and withstanding the true Prophets did not hinder but that they remayned still the Church and the worship appointed in the Temple was not to be despised for if any did forsake it they were indeed Apostats for whē they were euen at the worst Christ sendeth such as he had cleansed of the leprosie to shew themselues to the Priest and to offer the gift which Moses had commanded This must needes be so for otherwise how should that saying of Christ Math. 18. dic ecclesiae tell the Church be a perpetuall rule to all the people if there be once no Church visible to tell that cause vnto where is then the doctrine and precept of Christ Here therefore I say still ye be heretikes and apostats insomuch as ye haue departed frō the holy mother the Church ye haue forsaken the fellowship of the faithfull that which ye pretend the abuses of the Church is no excuse at all for will ye forsake your mother because she wanteth perfect beauty or because there is some deformity in her the abuses are to be reformed the thing must not be destroyed I would wish ye therfore to returne and to submit your selues againe and not to cast away your soules for ye be all damned heretickes which be out of the Church Pro. The breath of your mouth is very strong when as with one blast ye are able to ouerthrow whatsoeuer a man can bring out of the word of God But ye deceiue your selfe greatly for Gods truth will stand when you shall fall Your poore and silly shifts wil stand ye in no steed you make your reason after this maner when the Priests were
of all men who can complaine iustly when it is spoken of The Lord put into the hart of our gouernours to redresse it The same Lord heape his graces vpon your Lordship with increase of honor in his world and euerlasting life in the world to come Amen Your Honours most humble to command GEORGE GIFFORD A Contention betweene a Papist and a Professor of the Gospell PAPIST I Am glad to see you well Sir for old acquaintance sake which I would be content to renew againe Pro. I am glad also that you are in health I saw you not a great while before now Pa. I pray ye what newes were ye at London lately What is become of the Catholikes I heare there hath bene great disputation in the Tower Pro. There hath béene disputation indeed by reason of a proude challenge which was made Pa. Ye might terme it a proude challenge if he had not bene able to make his part good But I heare he behaued himselfe very learnedly and with great victorie against all which were set vppon him Pro. Ye haue heard moe lies then that but I perceiue ye are a Papist or at the least a fauourer of Papists for they bragge that he did excellently although in very déede he was there shewed to be but an obstinate cauiller Pa. Wherefore should ye call me Papist I am obedient to the lawes and do not refuse to go to the Church Pro. Then it seemeth you are a Church Papist Pa. A Church Papist what meane you by that Pro. Do you not know I will tell ye there are Papists which wil not come at the Church and there are Papists which can kéepe their conscience to themselues and yet go to Church of this latter sort it seemeth you are because ye go to the Church Pa. How can you tell what is in mens consciences you take vpon ye to iudge very deeply Pro. Nay there needeth no déepe iudgement they are so shallow that a man may easily sound them to the bottome Although the Church wals be thicke yet a man may espie them by some creuise Pa. Whereby do you know them so easily I pray by what notes can ye discerne them Pro. Some of them will not sticke to maintaine such popish opinions as they know there is no great danger of law for The simple sort which can no skill of doctrine speake of the mery world when there was lesse preaching and when all things were so cheape that they might haue xx egs for a penny Other there be which neuer name Papists but Catholikes if ye reason with them they do it but for arguments sake not that they say so but the Catholikes say so Another sort there are those are as pestilent as can bee for to the ende they may do the greater mischiefe they are Protestants but yet if any Preacher do zealously beate downe Popery he doth reaile he is cholerike hee is vncharitable and so they deuise all meanes possible to disturbe him these and suchlike are the notes to discerne a Church Papist Pa. You call them zealous Preachers they be very scismatikes and seduce the people with false doctrine and therfore such as be wise quiet and stayed men cannot abide them Pro. I see well that you are not of those which to it but for Arguments sake you will not shew what the Catholikes say but what your self saith Had ye not great cause to be offended when I said ye were a Papist Pa. I thinke plaine dealing is best in very deed I take ye to be heretikes I am a Catholike Pro. You take vs to be heretikes but in very deede I am able to proue that you are foule and rancke heretikes your selues and far from true Catholikes Pa. Ye do vs great wrong to call vs heretikes for we hold and bee of the Catholicke Church which hath euer condemned all heretikes If Catholikes be heretikes then are we also heretikes but this latter belongeth to you and all other which forsake the truth Pro. Nay those which hold the Catholike faith are of this Catholike Church and the doctrine of the Catholike faith we hold which hath alwaies condemned heretikes and therfore ye do vs as great wrong in calling vs heretikes as the Pharisies and Sadduces did vnto Saint Paule when they counted him so Act. 24.14 You haue forsaken the true doctrine of the old Catholike faith and therefore ye are no Catholikes Pa. We are they which hold the auncient Catholike faith yours is new doctrine we beleeue as all our forefathers did If your doctrine be true then all our forefathers were damned for they alwayes beleeued contrary to that which you beleeue Pro. The maner of you Papistes is to affirme things very strongly but when ye shold proue them then are ye exceeding weake and can bring forth naught but poore stuffe Ye are as able to proue these things which ye affirme as I am to remoue mountaines Pa. We may say so of you more rightly because you affirme much and proue litle I am able for to make good all that which I haue spoken Pro. Are you content to make triall who bring strongest proues if ye be let me heare how ye can disproue our faith and afterward I will show what I haue to disproue yours so it shall be séene which hold the Catholike faith and which be heretickes Pa. I am very well content tell me what I shall begin withall Pro. Begin with those things which ye affirmed euen now proue that our doctrine is new that you beleeue as all the forefathers did that our doctrine doth condemne all our forefathers and euery wise man will graunt that yours is the Catholike faith if ye cannot proue this then confesse that your doctrine is come from the father of lies and not from the God of truth For there is but one truth which is Gods word all other doctrines are of the diuell Pa. If that faith which you beleeue and doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued and knowne in the daies of our forefathers but it was not heard of in their daies neither was it knowne vntill such time as Luther did set it abroach Therefore the proudest heretike of ye all shall neuer be able to shew that it is of antiquitie Pro. Here are ruffling words the proudest heretike of thē al is not proud enough to deale with you but indeede if your proud conceipt were no sturdier then your argument yee might easily be dealt withall I confesse your Maior or first proposition of your argument to be true which is this if the doctrine which you professe be not new then was it beleeued in the daies of our forefathers But your second which is this that our faith doctrine was not heard of in the dayes of the forefathers vntill Luther did set it abroch is most false for our doctrine is the holy word of God deliuered to the Church by the Apostles Prophets We beléeue as Adam Seth
Enoch and the rest of the holy fathers did beléeue before the floud we beléeue as Abraham Isaack Iaacob did beléeue the other godly patriarkes before the time of Christ we beléeue as the blessed Apostles of our Lord other holy teachers in the Church a loÌ„g time after theÌ„ did But you Papists when you speake of the forefathers let passe all these which are the most auncient and most principall draw vs to a few of your owne which haue bene within these seuen or eight hundred yeares in which time religion hath bene corrupted and the great Antichrist for the most part of this time hath preuailed If we cannot proue our faith to be the faith of Abraham let it be counted new and let vs be taken for heretickes Pa. If this were true that you beleeue as the holy fathers before the flouâ—d as the Patriarkes after the floud as the Apostles of Christ then doubtlesse you are in the right way but these are but words how will ye proue this we say still you are heretickes and fallen away from the faith of these and we proue it by this reason because ye are fallen away from the faith of those forefathers which succeeded these For the fathers of our Church are the successors of the Apostles therefore you being fallen from them are fallen from the Apostles Pro. Then ye graunt that those haue the truth on their side which beléeue as the Apostles Prophets Patriarches did It remaineth only in tryall which of vs hold that faith which they did We proue that we do because we acknowledge nothing but the holy doctrine of the Bible vpoÌ„ which their faith was grounded You bring for your proofe the doctrine successioÌ„ of some meÌ„ for certaine hundred yeares Let vs now sée who bringeth the best and surest proofe say what ye can to weaken ours then I wil shew that the fathers which you boast of from whom we separate our selues are no successors of the Apostles and therefore in departing from them we depart not from the Apostles whose doctrine we hold Pa. What are ye the better to say ye bring the Scriptures and ye beleeue nothing but the Scriptures and ye will be tried by the Scriptures By this you proue that you beleeue as the Apostles and Prophets did your reason is not good because the Scriptures are hard to be vnderstood who shall iudge which is the true sense and meaning of them who shall tell ye how the Apostles and forefathers did vnderstand them Shall not the Church If ye may take them after your owne interpretation then ye will do well enough but the Church which we are is to interprete them and therefore we do still condemne you and all other heretikes although ye alleadge the Scriptures neuer so much because you do but abuse them as the diuell did when he tempted Christ Therfore ye must bring better reason then this to proue that ye hold the ancient Catholike faith for this doth not proue it Pro. Oh what a trim shift is this here is as pretie a iugling cast as euer the diuell could play to bleare the eyes of the simple and vnskilfull to make them beleeue that the scriptures are nothing without the interpretation of the Church of Rome Each man must light his candle there or els he shall go in the dark This is one of the most subtill and craftie cauils which you Papistes can make and one of the strongest pillers which your kingdome is built vpon For when ye cannot denie but that the Scriptures doe speake for vs then ye flie to this that they are hard to be vnderstood ye wold make vs beleeue that when they speake of one thing they meane another when they speake of good they meane euill when they set forth heauen they meane hell Pa. It is like you will answere truth when ye charge vs with so great and manifest a lie where can ye shew that euer any of our side hath spoken or written that when the scripture speaketh of one thing it meaneth another Pro. Is that such a lie I pray you what is the cause why ye tel vs the scriptures are hard when they speake so fully so plainely and plentifully and with such consent and agreement in those things which are the principles of our faith if it be not that when they speake of one thing they meane another Wherefore shold we not vnderstand what God saith vnto vs if he deale simply Wherfore did the Lord speake by his Prophetes and Apostles to the simple common people if they could not vnderstand what he said I cannot tell what other reason ye can shew why they should be so darke as you make them Pa. Are ye then in good sadnesse of this mind that the scriptures are not hard to be vnderstood and are they not vncertaine because they may be expounded diuerse wayes Pro. I do not deny 2. Pet. 3â— but that as S. Peter saith There be some things hard to be vnderstood which the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert as they do other scriptures to their owne destruction I confesse with the authour of the Epistle to the Hebrues Heb. 5. That there are things hard to bee vnderstood because we be dull of hearing Also the iust iudgement of God vpon the wickednesse of men as it is set forth by the Prophet Isaiah Isa 5. in hardning their harts blinding their eyes that in hearing they may heare and not vnderstand in séeing they may see and not perceiue and also in causing the word of God to be vnto them as a sealed booke sa 29 I. doth make the Scriptures hard to bee vnderstood Now although they be hard also in some sort euen to the godly and diligent man those whom God doth teach yet they are not hard as you make them that is to say that in no wise they may be vnderstood or haue any certainty in them but by the interpretation of the Pope and his cleargie For that is most blasphemously to take away the light from the most pure and cleare word of God This therefore is but diuellish craft by which ye would driue vs from Gods word which standeth sure on our side and maketh flat against you The Scriptures can be expounded rightly but one way hauing but one sense Pa. That which you do alleadge out of Saint Peter doth make for vs where he saith That the vnlearned and vnstable do peruert not only those hard things but also all other Scriptures to their distruction 2. Pet. 1. Likewise the same Apostle saith That no Scripture is of priuate interpretation S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 3. That the Church is the pillar ground of truth Then I reason thus the vnlearned do peruert the scriptures therefore they are not to deale with them no priuate person is to interprete the Scriptures therefore none but the Church or those which haue the authority in the Church and because the
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
it did represent And now I tell ye that as ye play the beasts that way so now ye play the part of subtil fooles which in seducing others deceiue your selues For this difference which ye make betwéene latria and dulia is not found in the scriptures And besides that the word of God doth forbid to giue dulian to any but God Pa. You haue set down two things which ye will neuer be able to proue the one that ye say there is no such difference between latria and dulia the other that dulia is to be giuen only to God If ye cā proue these two let vs see a peece of your cūning Pro. Our Sauiour Christ is a very competent Iudge in this matter and he vseth the one word for the other For where it is said in Moses Deut. 6. and also 10. Thou shalt feare the Lord thy God and him shalt thou serue he doth expresse it in Matth. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God him onely shalt thou serue I cite it to this end to shew that where Moses hath set downe tagnabod Christ doth translate it by the Euangelist latreuscis which is suffcient to shew that he put no difference betwéene them To proue that dulia is forbidden to images we néede goe no further then to the commandement where he doth forbid to make them and then he saith Thou shalt not bow to them neither shalt thou serue thē for he vseth the verbe gnabad I might alleage sundrie other places as Psalm 97. where he saith They shall be confounded gnobede pesel which serue the grauen image You blind Papists would pluck out mēs eyes by your vaine shifts and foolish distinctions you make a difference where there is none If euer there were abominable and foule idolatrie committed in the world either by Iewes or Pagans or other it is among you ye goe no doubt as farre as euer did any Now a daies the papists at least a number of them doe waxe more craftie they will not with their forefathers alow any thing to the idols themselues but al to the things which they represent wheras in times past the controuersie was whether the image was to be worshipped with the same worship that the first paterne that it did represent was Some of your great clarks did affirme the one way and some the other for one part defendeth that the images of the Trinitie and of the Crosse were to bee worshipped with latria diuine worship the other part doth reply that latria is proper only to God and therefore not to be giuen to the images they must adore thē with some lower worship But shift how yée can agrée or disagrée among your selues the holy word of God standeth still condemning and accursing ye as detestable Idolaters For say what ye can ye ascribe and giue worship vnto them Pa. Haue ye by this proued that dulia is to be giuen only to God Pro. I suppose that it is proued when the Scripture doth make no difference but vseth latria and dulia in one sense For ye all confesse now that diuine worship is to be giuen only to God Ye take dulia for a diuine seruice or adoration doth it not then follow that God is robbed of his right who is our Lord and wee his seruants Now all may sée that are not obstinate that the Romish Church is not the true Church of Christ because ye commit idolatrie I doe therefore conclude that al which will haue saluation must remoue themselues from ye and returne home to the ancient and true Catholike Church Pa. I wonder with what face ye can speake thus ye would haue men depart from our church as you say to the ancient true Catholike church when as ye cannot shew vs that antiquitie for masters it is well knowne how yong your Church is To the ancient Church we would not deny to returne if we were out of the way but to you which are newly sprung vp we may not Pro. It is a strange thing that men are so wilfull we doe beléeue all the doctrine faith which the Prophets and Apostles taught and beléeued we cleaue only to this admit none other and yet your blind eyes cannot sée what antiquitie we call ye vnto Wee are but men of late yeares if the doctrine which wée teach be no elder I would wish ye not to beléeue it But seeing we bring nothing but that which was from the beginning wee may boldly say that ours is the ancient Catholike Church and therefore all those which be not members of it cannot haue saluation As for you looke how farre ye are gone from the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles so farre are ye remoued from the true Catholike Church Your doctrine is contrary to theirs your Pope is nothing like Christ and his Apostles Pa. I see that I cannot remoue you nor you shal not remoue me I must euen leaue ye as I found you I am sorie that ye are so far spent yet I hope one day to see ye of a better minde For a day will come when this geere will be better looked vpon Pro. I may not be remoued from that which I know most certainly to be the trueth vnto that which is most cursed lies And as for you I leaue ye to the Lord no hope I see to winne yée for the day which ye hope for wée sée that the Lorde hath hitherto miraculously disappoynted yée and hath brought to light your traiterous purposes Our hope is that the same Lorde will still protect our gracious Quéene and her honorable counsellors Wonderfull great blessings hath GOD bestowed vpon vs by her and by them For which as many as haue any drop of grace cannot but giue heartie thankes and praise to the Lord and sure I am that vnlesse our sinnes doe prouoke him he is ready to bestow greater Although a great number of ye euen as it were very diuels incarnate doe enterprise and gape for her destruction and the destruction of those ouer whom she doth spread her wings to couer them Al good subiects within this realme both to GOD and their prince are bound in conscience not onely to curse hate and detest from the bottome of their hearts your hellish and cruell practises but also to lift vp their hands and hearts to heauen and to powre out continuall supplications to the Lord for the preseruation of her Maiestie and her Counsell Desiring God to guide them with his spirit to doe nothing but that which is good and pleasing in his sight also to giue them al gifts of wisedome and courage and to multiplie their dayes with true honour in this life and eternall blessednes in the life to come If men did sée how néedfull this prayer is at this time that this realme the poore Church of God in this realme may be in safetie it would cause them in stead of a few ordinarie colde prayers in this behalfe to send forth strong cries into the eares of the Lord and to powre out riuers of teares to moue him to pitie and compassion For when that greasie priest of Italy doth set ye on to spoyle vs of all peace both for body and soule and to take from vs
Saint Iohn saith to all the Christians 1. Iohn 4. Trie the spirites whether they be of God By your saying the people should not be able to trie them and so he would teach them that which did not belong vnto them Pa. What a trimme colour you set vppon the matter and how pretily ye can shift but I wil lay open your subtiltie To proue that the velearned people can iudge of doctrine preached you alledge the saying of Christ My sheepe heare my voyce c. I pray ye Sir if a man should demand of you whether he meaneth that this shall be immediatly or not and whether when he saith they shal be all taught of God doth he exclude the ministery of men or not I know ye will say the voyce of the great Shepeard is heard when those which he hath appointed to be shepheards do vtter his doctrine Ye will also say that although God teach yet he doth it by the ministery of men Then I answer that the vnlearned people are to heare the voyce of Christ from the Pope who is their great shepheard vnder Christ God doth teach them by him they are to sticke and cleaue to his determination of themselues they cannot iudge but they must doe it by him he must tell them which is the woolfe and which is the false Prophet they cannot tell which commeth with the true spirit or which spirit is of God but as he doth direct them And for this cause we say still that ye haue not the true Catholike faith nor the scriptures on your side nor the true sense because ye are gone from the only true expoūder of them Pro. All that I haue brought is but a colour and a prety shift and easily disclosed with one poore distinction of mediate immediate But I pray ye Sir how doth this hang together the voyce of the true shepheard is heard when it is vttered by men therefore the way to know it is by men God teacheth by men therfore God teacheth to discerne the spirits by men or if it be so must this needs follow that the Pope his Cleargy are those men which must do the déed This is a strange thing Christ Iesus S. Paule S. Peter S. Iohn others do foretell the people of false prophets the only way and remedy to auoyde them as you say is to hang vpon the Pope yet none of all these or any other hath so much as once noted it or tell the poore people by whose direction they might be safe in so extreame danger Pa. There was no neede so long as Christ or his Apostles liued to tell them so for they taught them this thing or how can you tell they did not they might though it be not written is all written which they did teach Pro. Here is mighty strong geare this were able to set vp a Pope if he were thrown down to reuiue him againe if he were hanged No maruell forsooth Christ nor his Apostles did not tell the people that the Pope and Church of Rome should be their refuge when heretickes shold séeke to seduce thē because there was no need so long as they liued this were somwhat if they had told only of the false teachers of their time but when they foretel the great dangers mischiefs which should be in the Church lōg after their dayes being aboue all things most chary of the safety of the same this were very absurd Acts. 20. not once to giue any note of the surest remedy S. Paul saith to the elders of the Church of Ephesus that he did know that after his departure there shold enter in grieuous wolues not sparing the flock there shold rise of thēselues which shold speake peruerie things and draw disciples after thē yet he speaketh of no remedy but that which was banished in your Church namely careful diligēt teaching for he saith therfore watch be mindful c. S. Peter saith as there were in times past false prophets amōg the people so shal there be false teachers amōg you 2. Pet. 2. and afterward he sheweth this remedy not willing them to hang their faith vppon his chaire or successor but to call to remembrance the words that had bene told them of the holy Prophetes and by the Apostles of Christ Saint Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. little children it is the last houre ye haue heard that Antichrist shal come I say there are already many Antichristes in the world and a litle after he telleth them how they shall escape the danger but saith he you haue receiued an annointing what from the Pope or his greasie oyle no but from the holy one and know all things Againe ye neede not saith he that any man teach ye but as the annoynting do teach ye Christ Iesus foretelleth Math. 24. that there should rise false Prophets and do such wonders that if it were possible euen the elect should be deceiued but that as his words do most plainely shew is vnpossible and why doth he say because I will leaue a vicar and as many as hang vppon his sleeue shall be safe not so but because God hath chosen them for he doth keepe them Iohn 10. and none is able to take them out of his hand He saith in another place Beware of false Prophetes which come vnto you in shéepes clothing but inwardly are rauening woolues and whereby shall men know them Math. 7. He sayeth by their fruits But how know we whether he did tell them so or not he might though it be not written alacke alacke Pa. I know your sect make but a scoffe at the traditions of the Apostles which were not cōmitted to writing but let that go it is but a folly to perswade those to beleeue which haue denied the faith and despise the Catholike Church Pro. The Pope of Rome hath a great chest ful of traditions which S. Peter did not put in writing but he hath whosoeuer doth not beleeue these hath denied the faith dispiseth the Catholike Church This is not your best way your best way is to stand to this that the Pope hath authority to decree what he wil so your traditions shall stand sure though they be flat against the word of God But I am content to let this go also and to returne to that which we had in hand and because I would haue the matter made a little more plaine I will demaund a question or two at your hands Was there not a Church in the world before the cōming of Christ Pa. Who doth deny that the Iewes were the Church and people of God Pro. Then tell me further whether had they the word of God or not to instruct them and to ground their faith vpon Pa. They had the bookes of Moses they had the bookes of the Prophets they were bidden to heare them Pro. Who were appointed in the Church to expound the law and the Prophets vnto
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
it to abolish it and yet doth still breake forth as bright and pure as before So soone as Christ was borne persecution arose and the children were cruelly murthered Paul and the rest of the Apostles do not so soone go foorth to preach Matth. 2. but the false prophets are at their héeles Cease therfore ye wicked wretches to blaspheme Christ and his Gospell because such things follow they bée not the fruits of the Gospell nor they doe not spring out of it but they be the enemies thereof which do alwaies pursue it Make a reconciliation betwéene Christ and the diuell if yée will haue the Gospell go quietly Now let a wise man way this reason the word of God which is the word of saluation of life of grace our light our shield the foode of our soules can not be set forth but there follow troubles and errors therfore it is good to kéepe it vnknowne and not to let the people haue any sight thereof All the world may see that ye haue conspired with the diuell are become instruments to fulfill his desire for he couereth by those euils to banish the trueth and to holde men in blindnes and all kinde of errors which they bée by nature full of and so to bring all to hell and you performe his will in crying out against the sacred Scriptures and seeking to burie them Pa. Nay you haue consulted with the diuell like vnnaturall children to seeke the ouerthrow of your mother the holy Church and to dishonour the vicar of Christ Pro. We bring all our consultation out of Gods holy word for the vpholding and maintaining of our holy mother the true Catholike Church and spouse of Christ against the filthie whore of Babylon and against Antichrist the great vicar of hell Pa. I may say the like against your side and so we may play at Tenice vntill we bee both wearie and part as wise as we began Pro. I say nothing against yout but that which the word of GOD doth plainly shew You haue no colour to say the like against vs sauing that your shameles faces haue made ye bolde to speake all kinde of lyes Pa. Great brags ye make of prouing out of the Scriptures Where doe the Scriptures tell ye that the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist You can make the Scriptures serue for your turne in any matter whatsoeuer Pro. Wée brag no more of the Scriptures then that which is manifestlie prooued by them we make them serue none other turne then the Lorde hath appoynted them for The Scriptures doe not in flat speeches say that the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist yet neuerthelesse they set a brand vpon his forehead and describe him in such sort that euery man which hath eyes may easily know him and as perfectly know him to be Antichrist as a man may know an egge to be an egge Pa. I haue read the Scriptures and know what they speake concerning Antichrist and yet could neuer finde that brand which you speake of nor such a description as should paint out the Pope to be Antichrist You are marueilous fellowes you can make somewhat of nothing you are so cunning that ye can draw water out of a flint Pro. You haue read the Scriptures and so haue your fellowes euen all the Popish shauelings and ye know they speake of Antichrist whom you beléeue shal come you cannot find that brand or marke or such a description of Antichrist as should belong to the Pope and that causeth ye to pronounce that wee make somewhat of nothing c. because it is not like that so many great Cardinals Bishops Abbots Monkes and Friers should reade and reade againe in the Scriptures and not sée the Pope to be Antichrist if he be so marked that he may easily bee knowne This may seeme strange but I tell yée it is no marueile for yée are all blinde as béetles The Scribes the Pharisies the Sadduces and all the learned among the Iewes did reade Moses the Prophets and studied them deuoutly looked for the Messias which was promised and described there and yet when he came they were so farre off from knowing him that they did kill him and fulfilled the voyces of the Prophets euen so fareth it with you ye reade what maner of one Antichrist should be and what he should doe and yet ye are so blinde that ye fulfill it in helping him to murther the Saints The Iewes could not know Christ because they looked for a trim Christ and he came base and poore You haue also deuised a popish fable of Antichrist which doth so sticke in your heads that ye cannot sée the notes and marks of the very Antichrist indéede Pa. Goe to goe to let vs see your great skill and what your scriptures will be whereby ye will shew this thing I feare me we shall haue but slender conclusions Pro. When ye haue tried them then giue iudgement and so although yee should iudge falsly yet yee shall not bee altogether so rash Will ye confesse that S. Paul 2. Thess 2. and S. Iohn in the Reuelation doe describe and set forth Antichrist Pa. That I will for I suppose no man will denie it but what are ye the better that which S. Paul doth speake and that which Saint Iohn hath written as concerning Antichrist may more fitly be applied to you then to vs. Pro. If it may as fitly be applied to vs as to you nay I will say further if it may be applied to any but to you let vs be counted heretikes Pa. Saint Paul sayth that the day of the Lord should not come except there came first an apostasie or falling away Doth not this touch you Let al men iudge who are fallen away we or you Are we fallen from you or you from vs Haue we made the departing or haue you Our Church hath alwaies stood fast and vnmoueable you haue rent your selues from vs by what reason can any man say that they haue made the apostasie which haue alwaies and do still keepe their standing and not rather those which are gone out from vs to fulfill that which S. Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. They went out from vs because they were not of vs. Pro. You would shift this thing from your selues and lay it vpon vs but it cleaueth so fast to your hands that it will not off Ye goe about by a subtill cauillation to bléere the eyes of simple men Wee confesse wee haue made the departure from you and not you from vs because you had departed from the trueth and true Church and had led vs out of the way of trueth vnto which wée are now agayne by Gods gracious goodnesse returned You say your Church hath alwaies stoode stedfast and vnmoueable and therefore hath not made the departing It is true if wee respect place and succession of Bishops but what doth that help ye when ye are departed from the faith which thing ye might and haue done without
she doth follow the example of Christ which would not doe any myracle at the request of the Pharisies Yea but why doth she not shew some of her power to her own chickens for feare least they should be drawn frō her Christ wrought myracles still to his disciples although the Pharisies were vnworthie No there is some other let the window doth stand too wide opē there commeth too much light Your mother would play one feate but that she feareth she should not make her conueiance so cleanly but that one or other would espie her She doth vse worse meanes a great deale Pa. What can you tell what myracles the Church doth you haue not faith to beleeue them She worketh more then you are made priuie of Pro. I doe certainly perswade my selfe that I know not all that she doth she hath learned to be more close then to let euery man sée what she doth And yet sometime wee sée more then we can well like of Your little pretie moulden God in the boxe doth giue her counsel how to deale against her enemies Pa. I see well when men are fallen away they care not what blasphemies they vtter This is farre from the thing which ye offered to proue Pro. If a man may vtter blasphemy against a péece of dow then I haue blasphemed But I doe assure ye I will neuer craue pardon for it I am still in the matter which I tooke in hand which was to shew that the Pope is Antichrist I could make plaine proues vnto ye out of other places of Scripture especially out of the Reuelation where the holie Ghost doth of purpose set forth the kingdome of Antichrist Pa. VVill ye take vpon ye to expound the Reuelation and the things are set forth in it so darkly by mysteries that no man can say precisely this or that is the sense but when you haue interpreted things one way another may make as good and as probable a sense another way What one thing is there which maketh so plainly against vs as ye would beare men in hand Doth it not make as plainly against you Pro. Although the Lord hath spoken darkly in the Reuelation yet not so darkly but that it may be vnderstood otherwise to what purpose was it giuen Wherefore are those pronounced blessed which reade heare it Reuel 1. if none can expound it it would haue béen a great deale more hard to vnderstand if the mysteries had béen but barely vttered but because there is also an exposition of the chief things which doe as it were couple all the rest together it is no hard matter to finde the sense especially when as the exposition is in so flat and plaine tearmes that euen the very obstinate Papists of your side are driuen to confesse them and not only in word but also in writing Pa. What can ye shew that is confessed by our men which ye say they are forced to confesse both in word and writing Pro. Reuel 11. Saint Iohn saith in the 11. chapter that the beast which riseth out of the bottomlesse pit should make war against the two witnesses which the Lord would send ouercome them and slay them And their bodies should lye in the stréetes of the great citie which spiritually is called Sodome and Egypt where our Lord was crucified Ierusalē was destroyed and Christ although he was if we respect the place crucified there but yet if wee respect the authoritie he was crucified at Rome because he was put to death by Pylate who had there the authoritie vnder the Romane Emperour Moreouer in the 17. chapter he saith plainly This woman which thou sawest is the great citie which raigneth ouer the kings of the earth Other things he setteth downe as the seuen hils and seuen kings all which do of necessitie describe Rome for there was nor is none other citie vnto which they may in any colour bee ascribed Therefore as I sayd it is confessed because it is so plaine that it cannot be denied euen by your men that Saint Iohn indéede in the Reuelation doth call Rome Babylon What fooles are those which cannot by and by see that if Rome bee Babylon and then Sodome and Egypt that the Pope must néedes be Antichrist Pa. VVhat foole is it which cannot see the weakenesse of your argument I pray ye doth it in good sadnesse follow that because the Scripture as wee confesse doth call Rome Babylon therefore the Bishop of Rome is Antichrist VVhat if one should reason thus London is a wicked citie therefore the Bishop of London is a wicked man Were not this a prety argument And why is not the other as good Rome of old time euen when S. Iohn did write was so full of wickednesse that he called it Babylon and therefore the Bishop of Rome then was Antichrist For ye must as well bring in then as now Are yee so poore a Logitian to frame an argument after that sort Can ye not distinguish betweene a citie and the Bishop of a citie Either you were but a while at Cambridge or else ye spent your time euill Pro. O great wise man what a quicke and sharpe sight haue you And how sound a Logitian you shew your selfe if to be blinde bee to be a Logitian Doe ye take it in good sadnesse that I would frame my reason thus Rome is Babylon therefore the Pope is Antichrist without consideration of circumstances therto annexed No sir although it follow not at all if we barely consider the citie and the Bishop yet if ye put on your spectacles looke well vpon other circumstances ye shall bée forced to confesse that if Rome bee Babylon the Pope is Antichrist Pa. If ye can proue such a consequence by circumstances I suppose ye would be able for a neede to proue Pauls steeple and Charing crosse to be cousin germanes Ye haue as many circumstances belonging hereto as to the other They be both made of stone and dwell both in one citie and peraduenture much about one age But perhaps yours are neerer matters Pro. As for Paules stéeple and Charing crosse I haue knowen them but a while I can not testifie of any kindred betwéen thē I leaue that to you Sure I am of this that ye shal as soone prooue the one of them to be the Father the other the Sonne as ye shall be able to disproue this reason Rome is Babylon therfore the Pope is Antichrist I pray ye tell me this wherfore doth S. Iohn describing the kingdom of Antichrist describe or note out also the Citie of Rome Is it not to let vs to vnderstād that if we wil séeke for Antichrist we shal find him there Rome is his seat he that would find him let him goe thither for there S. Iohn placeth him When a man is come thither where shal a man looke for this little fellow which is exalted aboue al that is called God which sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe that