Why then shoulde the loose life or false doctrine of some Bishops preiudice others either in the same office with them or in the same place before and after them since the things bee needefull though the men be sinâ—ull The chaire is not the worse though the Bishoppe may erre But you stande in contention with vs that the Bishoppe of Rome can not erre and nowe you say hee may erre without preiudice to his office and Seate which wee graunt For his charge to teach and power to bind common to him with all Bishoppes is not abolished nor abated though some did or hereafter should abuse it In the meane time this shaketh the Popes Tribunall which you giue him ouer the whole Church For if he may erre in fayth which you confesse then can he not be supreme iudge of all others in matters of fayth lest the whole church should bee bound to forsake her faith which shee may not vppon one erroneous iudgement of his which is possible and easte to happen Phi. Not possible Popes may erre personally but not iudicially that is they may erre in person vnderstanding priuate doctrine or writings but they neither can nor euer shall iudicially conclude or giue definitiue sentence for falshoode or heresie against the Catholike faith in their Consistories Courts Councels Decrees Deliberations or consultations kept for decision and determination of such controuersies douts or questions of fayth as shall bee proposed vnto them because Christes prayer and promise protecteth them therein for confirmation of their brethren Theo. What prayer or promise of Christ is it that you speake of Phi. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Theo. Are you in your fiue wittes to make such constructions of Christes wordes Phi. Why so Theo. Where lyeth faith in a mans heart mouth or hands Phi. What a wise question that is aske it not for very shame Theo. Nay answere it with shame enough Or if you will not S. Paul will Corde creditur we beleeue with the heart sayth he and confesse with the mouth So that if faith be not in our lippes much lesse in our fingers Phi. Who euer doubted of that Theo. Then is there no doubt but your deprauing the prayer and promise of Christ will soone bee perceiued of al men For if Christ prayed for Peter and as you racke it for his successours that their fayth shoulde not fayle Ergo the true faith of Christ must alwayes be kept in their hearts though their mouthes faile as Peters did when hee denyed his master with his lippes whom in hart he knewe to bee the sonne of the liuing God Now you turne it cleane contrarie You graunt the Popes heart may fall from faith to infidelitie and heresie but his mouth you defend shal be kept from pronouncing it as if Christ had prayed not for Peters hart where his faith remained but for Peters mouth which failed thrise before the cocke crewe notwithstanding his masters prayer and promise that very night This is absurd enough and yet the rest is more absurd when you graunt the Pope may erre in person that is both with heart and mouth but if hee once get on his robes and ascend his Tribunall he can not erre As if Christ had prayed not for the men but for the walles neither for the Persons but for the Places which is direct against the words of our sauiour For he sayth not I haue prayed for thy Tribunals Courtes and Consistories that they shall not erre but I haue prayed for thee noting his person that thy faith that is the perswasion of thine heart beleeuing and trusting in me shall not vtterly faile but the sparkles of my grace remaining in thee shall renue thee by repentance Christ prayed for the person not for the place How then can you say that the Person may erre but not the place Phi. The Person shall bee stroken with feare as was Vigilius or preuented by death as was Anastasius that hee shall not be able to accomplish his wicked intent in open place Theo. Call you that the prayer of Christ for the Popes fayth or the plague of God vpon him for his infidelitie Phi. Cal it what you will God will not suffer him to giue definitiue sentence for heresie against the faith Theo. Shew vs the warrant that God will not suffer it and wee are answered Phi. The promise of our sauiour that Peters faith should not faâ—le Theo. Then this you make to be the effect of Christes woordes I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not fayle that is notwithstanding my prayer for thee thy successours may be heretikes idolaters Apostataes and ruÌ„negates from me but I wil strike them with feare or peruert them with death that they shall not in open Court by definitiue sentence iniect â—y Church Are you not religious interpreters of the Scriptures when you delude them and interlace them with such commentaries Phi. Caiphas by priuilege of his office prophesied right of Christ though according to his own knowledge and faith he knew not Christ. And why may not the Pope haue the like priuilege Theo. Balaams Asse reproued the madnes of his master Why should not the Popes Asse haue the like priuilege Phi. You scoffe at our reasons you refell them not Theo. They neede no better refutation For out of a particular fact that is rare and vncertaine you conclude a generall and constant Rule God vsed the mouth of Caiphas the high Priest without his meaning to declare the necessitie and vtilitie of Christes death Hence you would inferre that no high Priest could erre in iudgement and consequently not the Pope as being belike successour to Caiphas that put Christ to death By the same cuÌ„ning you may conclude God vsed Balaams mouth against Balaams will to blesse Israel therefore no false Prophet can haue a lying spirit in his mouth Or God stirred vp the spirit of Daniel when he was a very child to coÌ„uince the two iudges of their vnrighteous proceeding against Susanna therefore children cannot want the spirit of direction in iudgement Or Pilats wife perceaued by her dreames that Christ was innocent therefore weomens dreames are alwayes true Phi. These illations be very foolish Theo. Yours is scant so good For in your example God ouerruled the hie-Priests mouth in such sort that in giuing the Iewes wicked and haynous counsel to kill the sonne of God his words receaued a double sense One cruel bloudie perswading them to murder the author of that new doctrine for feare least the Romanes should take it as an occasion to destroy the whole nation which was Caiphas mind and purpose The other confessing that his death should saue the people from destruction which declareth the vertue and force of his Passion Which he neither ment nor knew but God so tempered his tongue that in writing his furious malice against Christ his wordes stood indifferent for both constructions
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
except it were out of the bookes of faith or who would trust them in diuine causes without some colour of diuine Scriptures But what meanes the Lord hath left his sheepe to distinguish true shepheards from wolues dissembling their habite and theeues pretending his name this is the question that now we bee in Phi. It is And there must wee say bee some certaine Tribunall on earth where truth may be found at all times and of all men that bee willing to seeke for it otherwise there should be no stay for religion nor end of contention euery man pretending his faith to be trueth and no man hauing authoritie to decide which is trueth which were most absurd Theo. A Tribunal in earth to decide which is trueth Whose Tribunal shall that be Phi. The Churches Theo. We be now as neere as we were before If the truth be douted of the church must needes be much more doubted of because the church is the number of men professing the truth And howe can the professours of trueth be seuered from others so long as the trueth by which they should bee knowen is in question You doe but wast your breath if you goe not more directly to worke Phi. You would fayne call the Church in question but that you can not Theo. Away with these follies Where fayth faileth the church fayleth and hee that affirmeth your doctrine to bee false denyeth your assemblies and multitudes to bee the Church The supposing your selues to bee the Church when your fayth shoulde bee tried is a fonde and vaine delay Shall that be trueth which you professe though Christ say nay Phi. We say not so Theo. Then suffer those to bee his sheepe that heare his voyce and clayme not his fold vntill you be his sheepe Phi. We do not Theo. Wee must be first resolued which is his voyce before we can agree who are his sheepe Phi. I know that and yet which is the sheepheards voyce the sheepe must iudge and not the wolues The. In deed our sauiour saith The sheepe follow the shepheard for they know his voyce A stranger they will not follow but flee from him for they knew not the voyce of strangers applying this to himself My sheep saith he heare my voyce and follow me The reason went before for they know the voyce of their shepheard So that by the position of our Sauiour his sheepe must be able to discerne his voyce from a strangers Phi. What else Theo. His voyce is his woord his sheepe are the faithfull his folde is his church If the Lorde himselfe referre his sheepe to their exact knowledge of his voyce for their perfect direction why woulde you force the flocke of Christ to the court of Rome there to learne at your handes and vppon your only credite the voyce of their shepheard Phi. We would haue them followe the direction of Christes church in discerning the sound of Christes voyce Theo. And the church of Christ neuer directed any man by prescribing certaine places or persons where trueth could not fayle but only by the generall and constant profession of the same faith from the Apostles downe-ward in all ages and countries Phi. The church commendeth succession councels and Apostolicall Seates as good helpes to hit the right sense of the Scriptures Theo. But neuer as infallible notes to discerne the trueth Phi. The Bishops of the vniuersall Church haue as S. Ireneus sayth receiued with their Episcopal succession the grace and gift of vnderstanding the trueth Theo. You do that auncient father wrong in the place which you bring Ireneus limiteth succession after the same maner that we do noting successiō to be nothing worth vnlesse sound doctrine and holy conuersation be thereunto ioyned His woordes be Wee must therfore obey those Priests which are in the Church I meane those which haue their succession from the Apostles which together with their succession in office haue receiued charisma veritatis certum the sure doctrine or gift of trueth The rest we must suspect either as heretikes or as authors of schismes and pleasers of themselues or else as hypocrites vayne glorious and couetous From all such we must abstaine and cleaue to them as I said which keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with the order of their priestly calling yeeld wholesome doctrine conuersation without offence And shewing what hee meaneth by charisma he sayth Vbi igitur charismata Domini posita sunt ibi dicere oportet veritatem Where these blessings and gifts of God are there must we learne the trueth with whome is that succession of the Church which is from the Apostles and also sounde and irreproueable Doctrine So that orderly succession sound doctrine and conuersation without blame are the giftes and graces of God which he meaneth and the one hee will not haue to bee regarded or trusted without the other Phi. Make you no more accompt of succession Theo. We cōmend succession to exclude ambition and dissention in the Church of Christ and in that respect we detest such as inuade the Pastorall function without lawfull vocation and election but that succession in place should be taken for a warrant of true Doctrine is an error of yours and so palpable that euery Child can refell it For who knoweth not that an infinite number of bishops those orderly succeeding if you looke to their dignitie and not to their doctrine haue beene heretiks And that S. Paul thus forewarned the Bishops of Ephesus Out of your selues shall rise men speaking peruerse things to draw disciples after them And the Lord when he saith Beware of false prophets noteth there shall bee prophets by their calling which shal be foūd false in their teaching as S. Peter also witnesseth There were false prophets among the people of the Iewes euen as there shall be false teachers amongst you distinguished from Godly teachers not by office but by Doctrine S. Paul graunteth many to be the ministers of Christ in outward profession and shew which in workes and deeds be the ministers of Sathan Such false Apostles saith hee are deceitful workers and transforme them selues into the Apostles of Christ. The Prince of darkenesse that can conuaie his agents to be Teachers Prophets and Apostles in the Church of Christ can place them in Bishoprikes at his pleasure and therefore the chaire is no sure defence against error Phi. Wee know some Bishops haue beene heretikes but not all Theo. Neither do we say that all were God forbid But by this that some were we proue succession to bee no sure direction vnto trueth If Berillus Paulus Samosatenus Photinus Nestorius Dioscorus Petrus Apameus Sergius Cyrus Theodorus Macarius and infinit others canonically succeeding in Seates and Churches of no small account fell afterward into pestilent heresies that which was often easie then is contingent possible still succession which saued not them from erring can not defend others from the
Eugenius against the Councell of Basil affirmeth plainely Concilium potest errare sicut alias errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem raptam dictum Hieronymi melius sentientis postea fuit praelatum statuto Concilij A Councell may erre as otherwise a Councel hath erred about marriage to bee contracted betweene the rauisher and the rauished and the saying of Hierom as being of the sounder opinion was after preferred before the statute of the Councell And your argument that the church should fayle in fayth if councels should erre he reiecteth as friuolous Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium non potest errare quia Christus orauit pro ecclesia sua vt non deficeret It hindereth vs litle if it be sayde that a Councell can not erre because Christ prayed for his Church that it shoulde not fayle For though a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church yet to speake trueth the vniuersall Church is not there precisely but by representation because the vniuersall Church consisteth of all the faithfull And this is the Church which can not erre Wherby it is not vnpossible but the true faith of Christ may continue in onely one person Therefore the Church is not sayd to faile nor to erre if the true faith remaine in any one If you woulde bee farther taught that a generall councell is neither the vniuersall church nor representeth the vniuersal church and that it hath erred and may erre we can send you to a marchant of the same stampe that your selues are of where you shall see as much as I say debated and commended with no small brauerie Certum est Concilia non esse vniuersalem Ecclesiam In nullo vniuersalium Conciliorum omnium hoc sibi praesumpsisse Patres inuenient vt dicerent Catholicam se repraesentare ecclesiam praeterquam in hijs quae nunc impugnamus Constantiensi Basiliensi nouissimis It is certaine that Councels are not the vniuersall Church In none of all the general Councels shal you find the fathers to haue arrogated thus much to themselues as to say they represented the catholike church besides these two last councels of Constance and Basil which wee nowe impugne And that general councels may erre no man more resolute than Pighius Neque enim haec sola quae nunc impugnamus Concilia turpiter grauiterque errasse certum est sed alia plurima It is certaine that not onely these Councels of Constance and Basill which we now disproue haue shamefully and absurdly erred but also many others And againe In fidei definitionibus errasse etiam vniuersalia etiam sanctorum Patrum Concilia comperimus Testimonio sunt de vniuersalibus Concilijs inprimus Ariminense vniuersale haud dubie c. Insuper Ephesanum secundum ipsum vniuersale c. testimonio inquam haec sunt errare posse etiam vniuersalia Concilia etiam legitimè congregata We find that generall councels euen of holy fathers haue erred in decrees of fayth For example of generall Councels the Councell of Ariminum vniuersall no doubt and also the second councel of Ephesus and that likewise vniuersall these I say are witnesses that euen generall Councels and those lawfully gathered may erre If Panormitane and Pighius might happily bee ouerseen in empayring the credite of councels S. Augustine was not when he sayde Who can be ignorant that Prouinciall and National Councels yeelde without any stay to the authoritie of generall Councels gathered out of the whole Christian world and that general Councels themselues are often amended the former by the later with Catholike peace and Christian charitie Phi. He saith Plenary councels are amended but not from errors Theo. What needeth amending where no fault is The condition which S. Augustine repeateth in the first indureth to the last Si quid forte a veritate deuiatum est If in ought they swarue from trueth And except that be vnderstood he answereth not the thing which was obiected by the Donatists They opposed Cyprians letters Cyprians iudgement Cyprians Councel in a matter of Doctrine not of Discipline S. Augustine replieth Bishops might be deceiued and so might Councels In what now but in matters of Doctrine Phi. Can you name vs any general coūcel that erred in matters of doctrine Theo. Your owne fellow nameth the Councell of Ariminum and of Ephesus the second besides the Councels of Constance and Basill Phi. I doubt not whether that of Ephesus were a wicked Councell but whether it were general or no. Theo. The Patriarks of Rome Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem Constantinople were called vnto it and present at it with the Bishops of diuerse and sundrie Prouinces as their subscriptions declare which are extant in the Councel of Chalcedon The Bishop of Rome by his Legates as his wont was in other Councels the rest in person and therefore out of question it was no Prouinciall Councel Againe the Emperour that called the Councell in his epistle to the same saith We thinking it not safe that this question of faith should be handled without your sacred Synod and the Bishops of the holy Churches of all places thought it needful that your sanctities should assemble Phi. The Bishops that were present at Ephesus complained after in the Councel of Chalcedon that they were threatned and forced Theo. The greater the disorder that was cōmitted in the Councel the stronger is our argument that Councels may bee miscaried if Bishoppes may be forced they may likewise bee circumuented as they were in the Councell of Ariminum or deceiued in opinion as they were in the Councels of Carthage Constance and Basil by the confession of your deerest friends If all these wayes they may be peruerted when they are assembled ergo they may make both an erronious and iniurious conclusion And for this cause S. Augustine teacheth that ecclesiasticall Iudges may be deceiued in that they be but men and calleth their councels Humane iudgements which may be circumuented and beguiled His wordes be Non igitur debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere cum ille semper veraciter iudicet ecclesiastici autē iudices sicut homines plerumque falluntur The Church may not prefere herselfe before Christ forsomuch as hee alwaies iudgeth rightly and ecclesiasticall iudges as being but men are often deceiued And rehearsing two Episcopall iudgements that passed against the Donatists in the Councels at Rome and Arle hee addeth Sed haec humana iudicia deputentur circumuenire ac falli vel etiam corrumpi potuisse dicantur But let these bee counted the iudgements of men and let it bee said they might either deceiue or be deceiued and perhaps corrupted The like hee sayth of the Councell of Ariminum This is that which the Catholike fathers in the Councell of Nice had established against the Arrian heretikes by authoritie of the trueth and which afterward in the Councel of Ariminum hereticall impietie vnder an
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
them that were fallen into the same temptatiō with him to conclude a singularitie and superioritie for him ouer his fellow disciples and ouer the whole church besides Phi. By this We learne that it was thought fit in the prouidence of God that he who should be the head of the church shuld haue a special priuilege by Christs praier promise neuer to fayle in faith and that none other either Apostle Bishop or Priest may chalenge any such singular or speciall prerogatiue either of her office or person otherwise than by ioyning with Peter and by holding of him Theo. By this we learne that you abuse both the prouidence of God and the promise of our Sauiour to serue your wicked fansies For Christ did not promise that Peters iudgement shoulde neuer erre but that in this tentation nowe at hande his fayth shall not vtterly fayle Ego pro te oraui ne deficeret fides tua Hoc est ne in fine pereas I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not fayle that is sayth Chrysostome that thou finally perish not And againe Non dixit quippe non negabis sed vt non deficiat fides tua Cura enim ipsius fauore factum est ne omnino Petri fides euanesceret Christ did not say thou shalt not deny me but thy faith shall not wholy fayle For by his care and fauour it came to passe that Peters faith should not vtterly bee extinguished And so Bede Our Sauiour praied for Peter not that hee shoulde not be tempted but that his faith should not fayle that is that after he was fallen by denying him hee might rise againe by repentance to his former state Now frame your reason as in deede you must and marke your illation howe absurd it is I haue prayed for thee that thy fayth shall not vtterly vanish though thou shalt thrise denie mee and shamefully forsweare mee Ergo neither Peter neither his successours can erre in any matter of Religion I aske not what boy but what bedlem would thus dispute Phi. Peter denied not the faith but the person of Christ. Theo. And he that denieth the Person of Christ denieth not a part but the whole faith of Christ. It is a sorer and a more dangerous fal to deny the Lord himselfe than to be deceiued in opinion of faith euen by the very confession of Peter For thus he placeth them in the second Epistle There shal be false teachers amongst you which shall priuily bring in damnable sects yea denying the Lorde that hath bought them Our Sauiour in his admonition to the seuen Churches of Asia sheweth that hee which denyeth his name denyeth his fayth Thou holdest fast my name sayth hee and hast not denyed my fayth Wherefore not to hold fast the name of Christ is to deny the fayth of Christ. And how can you doubt of this since the missing of any point of fayth is but heresie and the denying of Christes name which Peter fell into is Apostasie farre worse than the former See then howe lewdly you peruert the words of our Sauiour Where Peter is forewarned of his fall you make the woordes a warrant that hee shall not fall And where the Lorde promised him repentance you turne the text as if Peter weree free from all such offences Phi. Hee offended but not in fayth Theo. Could he deny Christ and not denie his faith and hope in Christ Or can there bee greater infidelitie than to deny the sonne of God And yet Peter not onely denyed him thrise but with an othe and a curse ratified his deniall Phi. Peter denied that hee knewe him Theo. And hee that knoweth not Christ what fayth or hope hath he in Christ S. Ambrose giuing the cause why Peter did not speake but weepe after his fall sayth Petrus iam non vtitur sermone quo fefellerat quo peccauerat quo fidem amiserat Peter nowe doeth not vse speach by the which hee had lyed by the which he had sinned by the which hee had lost his fayth And againe Fidelior factus est post quam fidem se perdidisse defleuit Peter became more faythfull after hee bewayled the losse of his fayth Phi. The danger sayth S. Leo was common to all the Apostles but our Lorde tooke special care of Peter that the state of al the rest might bee the more sure if the head were inuincible Theo. Leo may be borne with in shewing himselfe somewhat fauourable to Peter the founder of his Church but what reason wee shoulde beare with you when you corrupt and falsifie that which Leo sayth His woordes are Pro fide Petri propriè supplicatur tanquam aliorum status certior sit futurus simens Principis victa non fuerit Prayer is made particularly for Peters fayth as though the state of others woulde bee the surer if the minde of the chiefe were not conquered For aliorum you say all the rest for mens Principis you say the head for victa non fuerit you say were inuincible that is at no time after able to bee conquered These bee your forgeries they bee not Leoes woordes Hee speaketh somewhat partially for Peter but nothing hurtfull vnto vs. That Peter was the chiefe of the Apostles in order in age in zeale in courage and such like vertues and dignities and that the rest are weakened when the chiefe is conquered which is all that Leo sayth we can admit But yet S. Chrysostome by your leaue giueth a truer cause way Christ did mention Peter and not the rest If Satan desired to resist them all why did not Christ pray for all It is euident as I sayd before that to touch him the more deepely and to shewe his fall to bee farre more grieuous than any of the rest Christ turneth his speech to him in particular And so hee sayde before I prayed for thee particularly that thy fayth should not fayle This Christ spake to touch Peter the more vehemently signifying that his fall woulde bee much fouler than the fall of his fellowes and therefore that hee needed the more helpe S. Augustine maketh it a plaine case that in praying for Peter hee prayed for all Quid ambigitur Pro Petro rogabat pro Iacobo Iohanne non rogabat vt ceteros taceam Manifestum est in Petro omnes contineri quia in alio loco dicit Ego pro hijs rogo quos mihi dedisti Pater Why doubt wee of it Did hee pray for Peter and did hee not pray for Iames and Iohn to say nothing of the rest It is manifest that in Peter all are contained because in an other place hee sayth I pray for them whom thou hast giuen mee O father The wordes Pro Iacobo Iohanne non rogabat must bee interrogatiue vnlesse you will haue S. Augustine to contradict that which he goeth about to proue though the Print or the Scribe haue made there two pointes yet your owne
after they were indued with the power of the holy Ghost from aboue was assured truth void of all error the same spirit ruling their tongues that guided their pens But this priuilege to teach and write trueth without error was annexed to Peters person not conueied along to his successors no more thā their writings are canonicall because his were Phi. This was not the priuilege of S. Peters person but of his office that he should not faile in faith The. If you ment that other Apostles which were of the same office with him were to haue the same priuilege as well as he you saide right for the churches of Christ in all places where Peter neuer preached needed the same assurance of faith the same direction vnto trueth that the churches did which were planted by Peter But you will haue this priuilege remaine to some successor after Peters death and for that you shew vs no authority besides your owne which God knoweth is very simple Phi. Al the fathers applie this priuilege of not failing in faith to the Romane church Peters successours in the same Theo. You belie all the Fathers with one breath but that you haue a priuilege to say what you list in other men this were an arrogant an impudent lie What fathers I praie you applie this promise of not failing in faith to the Romane Church You say al for discharge of your credit let vs heare some Phi. S. Barnard writing to Pope Innocentius saith To what other See was it euer said I haue praied for thee Peter that thy faith do not faile Theo. Could you find no father for the space of 1100. yeres that euer applied these wordes to the church of Rome before Bernard To be plaine with you masters Bernard is too yōg to cary the name of antiquitie too single to haue the credit of al the fathers But with thē that haue no mo one must go for all Indeed all the fathers that euer applied this priuilege to the church of Rome are poore Bernard more than a 1000. yeres after Christ in the midst of corruption but in this case wee require some grauer and elder father than Bernard Phi. To the which saith S. Cyprian infidelity or false saith can not come Theo. To which what church or successors Phi. Which you wil. And where you require fathers that the church of Rome can not er Cypriās words be very plaine Post ista nauigare audent ad Petri cathedram atque ecclesiam Principalem vnde vmtas Sacerdotalis exorta est a schismaticis profanis literas ferre nec cogitare eos esse Romanos quorū fides Apostolo praedicante laudata est ad quos persidia habere non possit accessum After al this they dare saile cary letters frō schismatiks profane persons to the chaire of Peter the principal church whence priestly vnity had her beginning do not remēber the Romanes to be those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom infidelity cā not come Theo. You do wel to repeate the place at large it wil ease me of some paines What conclude you of these words Phi. That the Bishop of Rome can not er Theo. How fet you that about Phi. To Peters chaire infidelitie can not come Theo. Those be not Cypriās words Phi. To the Romanes he saith infidelity cā not come Theo. He addeth somwhat more whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. All the better For if S. Paul praised their faith it was the truer Theo. But whose faith did Paul praise the Bishops or the peoples Phi. Why aske you that Theo. Because that directeth the sense of Cyprians words Phi. Whose say you Theo. I aske you you returne it to me Well then let S. Paul speake for vs both I thanke my God through Iesus Christ for you all because your faith is renoumed throughout the whole world You al containeth as well the people that receiued the faith as the Preachers that taught it and of the twaine rather the people than the Preachers because the preaching of the faith was as true elsewhere as in Rome but either the zeale deuotion of the people in receiuing the faith was greater at Rome than elsewhere as S. Hierom noteth that S. Paul commendeth or else because their citie was imperiall the fame of their receiuing the gospel was bruted farther abroad thā of other smaler cities did incourage others to go forward with the more boldnes for the which Paul thāketh God Take which you wil the peoples faith is it that S. Paul praiseth as his own words witnesse To you all that are at Rome I thanke my God for you all because your faith is made manifest to al the world Now if Cyprian say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes whose saith was praised by the Apostles mouth then can none of the people of Rome erre because the faith of them all was praised by the Apostles mouth Phi. The church of Rome can not erre nor the people neither so long as they follow the faith of that church Theo. But if you build this on Cyprians words you must say that the church of Rome can not erre so long as shee followeth the people of Rome for their faith was praised by the Apostle And therefore choose whether you will impart this priuiledge to euery Citizen and Artisant in Rome that they can not erre as well as to the Pope that hee can not erre or else seeke for an other meaning of Cyprians saying Phi. What other meaning should we seeke for be not the wordes plaine enough Theo. You neither translate them right nor applie them right For Cyprian doth not discourse in that epistle whether the Romanes them-selues may fall from the faith but whether wicked persons reiected in other places from the communion should haue any refuge or find any fauour at Rome that he largely dissuadeth bringing this amongst others for a reason that where the Apostle praised the people of Rome in his time for their zealous imbracing the faith of Christ and incouraging others to doe the like it would nowe bee a great shame if wicked disturbers of the faith should bee succoured by them which he thought good to expresse in these words Neither doe they remember the Romanes to bee those whose faith was praised by the Apostles mouth to whom wickednes or vnfaithfulnesse may not haue accesse Phi. Out vpon you what a gloze haue you brought vs here Theo. None but such as the whole Epistle shal iustifie Phi. You translate non possit may not Theo. A foule ouersight I assure you as though the very children in Grammer scholes did not learne that posse doth signifie to may or can or your law it selfe did not allow vs that exposition when it saith Id dicimur posse quod de iure possumus we can
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
deponitur For heresie the Pope is ipso facto deposed and no inconuenience And to that ende hee alleadgeth Petrus de Palude saying Papa quando labitur in haeresin tunc â—o ipso est praecisus ab Ecclesia desinit esse caput The Pope when hee falleth into an heresie is presently cutte off from the Church and ceaseth to bee the heade of it So Gerson the Chauncellour of Paris Tam Papa quam Episcopus deuiabiles à fide The Pope may swarue from the fayth as well as an other Bishop The generall councell of Basill saith Saepe experti sumus legimus Papam errasse Wee haue often both found out by experience and reade that the Pope hath erred And againe Cum certum sit Papam errare posse For so much as it is certaine the Pope may erre Aeneas Syluius afterwarde Pius the seconde inueying against them that woulde not haue councels gathered without the Popes consent saith What remedie shall there bee if a sinnefull Pope trouble the Church if hee destroie soules if hee peruert the people with his euill example Si denique contraria fidei praedicet haereticisque dogmatibus imbuat subditos If he teach against the faith and infect those that be vnder him with hereticall opinions Cardinall Caietane and Pope Innocentius the fourth though they had good cause to fauour the See of Rome yet were they clearely resolued the Pope might erre and so were all the writers of your owne religion before this our age that euer I hearde of and euen at this day the sincerest of them dislike the vnshamefastnesse of your assertion Papa in fide errare potest vt melius sentientes tenent etiam ex hijs qui Papatui plurimum fauent Inter quos est Innocentius eius nominis quartus Pontifex in cap. 1. De summa Trinitate The Pope may erre in fayth as the truer opinion is euen of them that fauour the popedome verie much Amongest whome is Innocentius the fourth of that name Bishoppe of Rome writing vppon the first chapter De summa Trinitate Arboreus a Doctor of Paris and one of your chiefe Sorbonistes Papa in fide errare Potest Et tota mihi aberrare via videtur qui aliter sentit Assentantur sane Romano Pontifici qui faciunt cum immunem à lapsu haereseos schismatis The Pope may erre in fayth And he seemeth to mee to bee in foule errour that thinketh otherwise Surely they doe but flatter the Bishoppe of Rome that make him free from falling into heresie and schisme Erasmus pithily impugneth your inconsiderate follie If it bee true which some say that the Bishop of Rome can neuer erre iudicially what neede generall councels Why are men skilled in the lawes and learned in diuinitie sent for to councels if hee pronouncing can not erre To what purpose are so many Vniuersities troubled with handling questions of faith when truth may be had from his mouth Nay how commeth it to passe that the decrees of one Pope are repugnaÌ„t to the decrees of an other This perswasion of yours must needes be naught which so many of your owne side haue condemned before our dayes and the sobrest of your selues that haue written since our time doe vtterly disclaime And therefore aduise you whether you will faierly resigne this fansie or be conuinced by the verdict of your fellowes for men-pleasers and flatterers It is farre from a Catholike position which your owne church in the midst of darkenesse would neuer acknowledge and at this daie none defende but such hungrie ghestes as you be that gape for thankes and seeke to please Phi. You falsely charge vs with vnhonest respectes Theo. It is not my iudgement of you but theirs that otherwise haue no cause to thinke euill of you Phi. The reason that moueth vs so to say is for that we finde no Pope that euer erred Theo. You refuse Councels Fathers Stories and all that come in your way because you will not finde it Phi. We refuse not that is ancient or indifferent but onely such as we thinke partiall Theo. Then if there bee no cause why they should be partiall you will admit them for credible Phi. We will Theo. We expect no more What say you then to Clemens the first of that name as you make your account though wee thinke it a leude forgerie in his name Doe not your own Decrees report out of his decretall epistles that amongest christians al things ought to be common euen wiues and all Communis vita omnibus fratres necessaria est Communis enim vsus omnium quae sunt in hoc mundo omnibus esse hominibus debuit In omnibus autem sunt sine dubio coniuges A common life is necessarie for all men brethren the vse of all thinges that are in this world ought to be common to all men And in al things no doubt are wiues contained Phi. He meaneth not the carnall vse of women but their domestical seruice ought to be common Theo. So your gloze would make vp the breach but all in vaine For Socrates in Platoes common wealth whom your Clemens in this place citeth and calleth Graecorum sapientissimum the wisest of the Graecians rehearsing the prouerbe which Clemens here vseth inferreth that the coniunction of men women and procreation of children ought to bee common which is a monstruous and heinous errour And were that excused the the rest is a shamefull absurditie that all other thinges ought of necessitie to bee common amongst christians For the Scriptures do not exact that no maÌ„ should possesse any thing but onely that charitie should gladly distribute supply the wantes of such as neede Phi. Your selfe thinke this to be forged in Clementes name Theo. We do but you do not and therefore against you the instance is good The next is Tertullians testimonie who saith of the Bishop of Rome that he agnised the prophesies of Montanus and sent letters of communion and peace to the churches in Asia and Phrygia that were of that sect Phi. But hee reuoked those letters and ceased from that purpose as Tertullian also confesseth Theo. Hee reuoked them after they were sent and ceased from that which he first acknowledged Episcopum Romanum tunc agnoscentem prophetias Montani ex ea cognitione pacem Ecclesiis Asia Phrygiae inferentem falsa de ipsis prophetis adseuerando coegit literas pacis reuocare tam emissas a proposito recipiendorum schismatum concessare Praxeas the heretike forced the Bishoppe of Rome then agnising the Prophesies of Montanus and vppon good liking of them giuing peace to their Churches in Asia and Phrygia to reuoke his letters of coÌ„munion when they were sent and to cease from his purpose of embracing their doctrine Phi. Tertullian was of that sect himselfe and therefore no indifferent witnes Theo. Indifferent enough to report the fact though not to iudge
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
their owne heartes S. Augustine citeth and commendeth the saying of Socrates Vnumquemque Deum sic coli oportere quomodo ipse se colendum esse praeceperit Euery God must bee worshipped in such sort as hee hath commaunded himselfe to bee worshipped And thereupon inferreth that if any would worshippe the God of the Hebrewes otherwise than he him-selfe had willed non vtique illum colerent sed quod ipsi finxissent they shoulde not haue worshipped him but their owne fiction In this consisteth the chiefest ground of all religion For God hath not charged vs to bee curious in searching his essence but to be carefull in obseruing his will Hee neither taketh nor requireth any thing at our handes besides his woorship That if wee yeelde him according to his will we honour him as our God if we alter that which he hath appointed for himselfe or adde any thing vnto it hee reiecteth all our seruice as done not vnto him but to the conceit of our harts which by nature is no God therefore an idole For this cause God is euery where so earnest with vs that we should serue him not after our fansies nor with our deuises but answerable to his will reueiled in his word You shal not do euery man what seemeth him good in his owne eies whatsoeuer I commaund you that take heed you do that and nothing else Thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And when the Iewes thought to be very forward in deseruing God with their deuotions and oblations they were repelled with this demaund who requireth this of your handes Our Sauiour himselfe assureth you that you worship God in vaine if your feare or seruice towards him be taught you by the precept of men Phi. All this we admit Theo. Then when we serue God besides his will we serue not him but the presumption of our owne hearts which is an idoll this deuotion of ours though we wholy intend it to him and earnestly vrge it on him yet is it the worship of idols and not of God since hee vtterly renounceth it as none of his and being refused by him as iniurious to his truth though it be appointed for him as most â—â—t in our fansies it must of necessitie be counted idolatrie Phi. What is this to the image of Christ whereof we were reasoning The. Unlesse you can proue that Christ will be serued with materiall and artificiall images and is content to accept that honor as done to himselfe which is yeelded vnto them your adoring them maketh them idols and your selues Idolaters For they be thinges made with handes which you cannot worship without apparent idolatrie Phi. We worship not them but him that is represented by them Theo. It lyeth not in your power to diuide adoration betwixt Christ and his image or with your intenâ—ion to assigne that honour vnto him which you do to the workes of your own handes without his warrant You must know whether hee will accept it as done to himselfe before you may venter to conuey it vnto him by dead and dumbe creatures Phi. We doubt not of that Theo. Your confidence wil not helpe the matter till his commaundement be shewed Phi. All men you knowe thinke that done to themselues which is done to their image Theo. But Christ that is God as well as man is not so content Phi. How proue you that Theo. Nay the proofe must be yours since the fact is yours You must shew that Christ alloweth of the honour done to a painted or carued image as done to himselfe If you cannot you conuince your selues of sacrilege presumption and impietie when you giue that honour which is due to Christ vnto a stocke or a stone set vp in his steed without his leaue or liking For this precept Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue excludeth as well images as creatures from being partakers of his diuine honor the image which you make be not so good as the creatures which God made which yet in no wise may be worshipped Phi. You reason as if wee gaue diuine honour vnto images which wee doe not Theo. Your schooles with one consent do giue the same honour vnto the image which is due to the originall that is diuine honour to the image of Christ. If you be ashamed of that errour you ridde your selues of some danger but you leaue your church in the briars which hath all this while professed and practised that idolatrous doctrine Phi. Our church neuer gaue images any diuine honour Theo. The fortresse of your faith is direct against you Crux Christi eius imago venerari debent adoratione latriae Et haec est opinio Thomae in 3. sententiarum distinctione 2. The crosse and image of Christ ought to woâ—shipped with such honor as is due vnto God And of this opinion is Thomas vpon the thirde of the sentences the seconde distinction Phi. Holcot was not of that minde as you find it testified in the same place Theo. But Holcots reward was to be repelled with his contradiction because your church tooke part with Thomas And so your fortresse sayth Licet hoc rationabiliter videatur dictum tamen loquendum est vt plures communis opinio tenet oppositum Though this saying of Holcot seeme reasonable yet we must goe with the multitude and the common opinion holdeth the contrary One of your Italian Bishoppes who knewe better than you what the church of Rome holdeth saith Ergo fatendum est fideles in Ecclesia adorare imaginem sine quo volueris scrupulo qum eo illam venerari cultu quo prototypon eius Propter quod si illum habet adorari latria illa habet adorari latria Wee must therefore confesse that the faithfull in the church do without any qualification ADORE THE IMAGE which they see yea with the same kinde of worship that is due to the original Wherefore if that haue diuine honour the image MVST HAVE THE LIKE DIVINE HONOR Phi. Wee giue not this honour to the image but rather to the originall Theo. Your church in plaine wordes giueth the same honour to the image that is due to the originall which in Christ must bee diuine honour and when you bee charged with it you say you giue it not to the image but rather to the Originall and so by your later euasion you subuert your former assertion For why dare you not giue diuine honour to the image of Christ but onely because it were manifest and apparent idolatrie so to doe And if that bee true why then doe you teach all men to giue the same honour to the image of Christ that is due to Christ him selfe You conclude it must bee done and yet you confesse it can not bee doone without a sacrilegious iniurie to Christ if his diuine honour bee giuen to an image made of earth and framed by
through their rehearsall by consenting to their wordes be stirred or moued to depend on God The Priest therefore in his church seruice though he direct his heart to God yet doeth hee open his mouth for their sakes that are present that they may be both kindled and guided by the sounde and sense of his wordes to ioyne with him in offering to GOD one agreement of heart and voice which is the cause why publike prayer was ordained And euen at this day in your Masse the Priest speaketh not one worde in his owne person but in euery praier both warneth the people to pray with him and speaketh in their persons as well as in his own For example Let vs praie let vs giue thanks we beseech we offer we praise we blesse we adore which argueth that at the first institution of your owne seruice the people did were bound to marke and vnderstand the Priests wordes with answering Amen to acknowledge and confâ—â—m his prayers to be their desires and requestes vnto God though now you shut vp their eares mouthes that they can neither vnderstand you nor knowe what to answere you but only open their eyes to beholde your gestures as if it were not a place for praier but a stage for dumbe shewes to delight the senses Phi. You make certain petite reasons against vs for the seruice in the vulgar tongue but had they beene sufficient do you thinke the church of Christ would haue taken vp the contrary custome for these fifteene hundreth yeares Theo. I thinke shee would not by her church seruice I proue shee did not Phi. You proue the people vnderstood the seruice by course answered and consented to that which was sayde in the church but this doth not proue that the prayers were in any other tongue besides the Latine Greeke or Hebrewe which is our assertion Theo. This is it which I tolde you before that finding the people did vnderstand the diuine seruice in the Primatiue church and that no praiers were counted publike vnlesse they had the consent answere of the whole multitude we neede not care in what toungs this was done The Hebrew Greeke Latine Armenian Indian Persian Syrian Gothian tongâ—es are they not all alike to God Must not barbarous Nations be edified by their praiers as well as the ciuiler or learneder sort of men There is no respect of persons with God is there of tongues Phi. The three learned tongues were dedicated in our Sauiours crosse the rest were not Theo. Who set vp those titles on the crosse the Lord which suffered or Pilate which condemned him vniustly to death Philan. What though Pilate set them vp Theo. If Pilate were a wicked Pagan and his fact wickedder in proclaâ—ming the Sonne of God for a Traitour and an aspirer to the Crowne of Iurie in Hebrewe Greeke and Latine letters what reason can this be why God will not or shoulde not bee serued in any other tongue but in one of these Haue you no better examples than Caiphas to vphold the Popes Tribunall and Pilate to commend your Latine seruice Phi. Yeas we haue the church of God Theo. Then why conceale you that and bring foorth Pilates impietie to prescribe a rule in the church of God against the Apostle Phi. The tongues were good though his fact were euill Theo. And dare you say that any tongue in the world is not good Phi. Good they bee all but not so good as any of these to serue God in Theo. Recoile you back againe to that errour that God is an accepter of tongues Phi. You call it an errour Theo. So is it and that a verie grosse errour For God accepteth the zeale of the heart not the sound of the mouth and though to vs there is some difference in the perfection and pleasantnesse of the speech to God in deuotion of praier there is none He saith Origen that is Lord of all tongues heareth those that praie in any tongue For God the gouernour of the whole world is not as one that hath chosen the Greeke or some other barbarous tongue and is ignorant of the rest or neglecteth those that speake vnto him in any other tongue And since he hath made all tongues requireth not the sounde of our mouthes for himselfe but for our selues it is wilfull folly to say that prayers bee sanctified or accepted to God in one toung and not in all tongues alike Phi. Still I say the Church of God hath no such custome which Saint Paul himselfe laieth downe for a sure direction in all church matters Theo. Take you the negligent abuse of late yeares in some places for the custome of Gods church Or doe you thinke it pietie to pretende any custome of your owne against the commaundement of God Phi. Any thing which the whole Church doeth practise and obserue throughout the world to dispute thereof as though it were not to bee doone is most insolent madnesse as S. Augustine verie notably saith in his 118. epi. Theo. S. Augustin doth not say that you may prefer custom before the Scriptures or change the auncient custome of Christes church in making her praiers in a vulgar and knowen tongue with a newer order of your owne in tying the people to a strange and vnknowen language either of those by the verdict of Augustine in this verie place is that most insolent madnes which you would seeme to fasten on others And yet you miserably racke this place of Augustine For of two parts you dissemble the first that you may pull the second to your purpose and in the seconde you leaue out two conditions which your Author addeth and were the text truely cited your application is so false in the sight of all men that none but mad men would venter on so desperate an assertion as you haue doone For that the whole church of God throughout the world euer had or at this day hath her seruice in an vnknowen tongue or in Latine well you might vtter it in a dreame but neuer sober man said it being broad awaked well aduised The wordes of S. Augustine being consulted of the rites and ceremonies of the Church not of the doctrine or faith of the church are these If the authoritie of the Diuine Scripture prescribe in any of these rites and ceremonies what is to bee doone I answere there may bee no doubt but that we must doe as we reade Similiter si quid horum tota die per orbem obseruat Ecclesia The like I say if any of these rites bee obserued of the whole church thoroughout the whole world at this present day for to dispute that we should do otherwise is most insolent madnesse The scripture is first to be respected obeied if that prescribe no certainty the custom of the vniuersall church is to be folowed in those rites which are neither against the faith nor good
neither denying auoyding defeating nor answering What if not one of these fathers whose works you cite as thick as hops euer spake or heard of your external and real sacrificing the sonne of God afresh for the sinnes of the worlde but they vsing the wordes Sacrifice and oblation to an other purpose you force a priuate and peculiar sense of yours vpon their speaches against their meanings Phi. This is euer your wont when the woordes bee so plaine that you can not deny them to flie to the meaning Theo. In deede this hath beene not the least of Satans sleights in conueying your Religion from steppe to step point by point to keepe the speach and chaunge the sense of the learned and auncient fathers that what with the phrases which were theirs and the forgeries which were not theirs and yet caried their names hee might make the way for Antichrist to set vp his visible Monarchie of error and hypocrisie Phi. This is the way to rid your selues of all obiections Theoph. And the other is the way to drowne your selues in the deapth of all corruption but so long as wee holde their fayth and doctrine which were the lights and lampes of Christes church we can spare you their phrases here and there skattered in their writings you no whit the neerer the trueth of their beliefe Phi. You hold not their fayth in this or any other point of your Religion Theo. The greatest boasters bee not alwaies the greatest conquerours Let it therefore first appeare what they teache touching the Sacrifice of the Lords table and what wee admit and then it will soone bee seene which of vs twaine hath departed from them The fathers with one consent call not your priuate Masse that they neuer knew but the Lordes Supper a Sacrifice which wee both willingly graunt and openly teach so their text not your gloze may preuayle For there besides the sacrifice of praier and thankesgiuing which we must then offer to God for our redemption other his graces bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne besides the dedication of our soules and bodies to be a reasonable quicke and holy sacrifice to serue and please him besides the contribution and almes then giuen in the primatiue Church for the reliefe of the poore and other good vses a Sacrifice no doubt very acceptable to God I say besides these three sundry sortes of offerings incident to the Lordes table the very Supper itselfe is a publike memorial of that great dreadful sacrifice I meane of the death bloodshedding of our sauiour and a most assured application of the merites of his passion for the remission of our sinnes not to the gazers on or standers by but to those that with faith and repentance come to the due receiuing of those mysteries The visible sacrifice of bread and wyne representing the Lords death S. Austen enforceth in these words Hold most firmly neither doubt of this in any case that the only begotten sonne of God taking our flesh offered himselfe a sweet smelling sacrifice to god to whom with the father the holy ghost the Patriarks Prophets Priests vnder the old law sacrificed brute beasts to whoÌ„ now in the time of the new Testament with the same father holy spirite the holy Catholike Church throughout the world doth not cease to ofâ—er the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith charitie In those carnal Sacrifices there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which he should offer bloud which he should shed for the remissioÌ„ of our sins In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiuing remembrance of the flesh which he hath offered and bloud which the same god hath shed for vs. With him agreeth Ireneus Christ willing his Disciples to offer vnto God the first fruites of his creatures not that god needed them but lest they should be found vnfruiteful or vnthankful toke the creature of bread and gaue thanks saying this is my body And likewise he confessed the cup which is a creature amongst vs to be his bloud teaching the new oblation of the new Testament which the Church receiuing from the Apostles offereth to God throughout the world We must theÌ„ offer to god in al things yeeld thanks to god the maker with a pure mind vnfaigned faith stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his Creatures and this oblation the Church only sacrificeth in purity to the creator offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing And this we offer to him not as if he stoode in neede of these presents but rendring him thanks for these his gifts and sanctifieng the creature This oblation of bread wyne for a thankesgiuing to God a memoriall of his sonnes death was so confessed vndoubted a trueth in the church of Christ till your Schoolemen beganne to wrest both Scriptures and Fathers to serue their quiddities that not onely the Liturgies vnder the names of Clemens Basil and Chrysostome do mention it We offer to thee our king and God this bread this cup according to thy sonnes institutioÌ„ tua ex tuis offerimus tibi domine we offer thee O Lord these thy gifts of thine own creatures Which sense Irineus vrgeth against valentine but also the very Missals vsed in your own Churches at this day do confirme the same These be the woordes of your own Offertorie Receiue holy Father God euerlasting this vndefiled host which I thine vnworthy seruant offer to thee my king and true God for my sinnes negligences and offences innumerable for al standers by yea for all faithful christians as wel liuing as departed this life that it may helpe me theÌ„ to attaine eternal life We offer to thee O Lord this cup of saluation intreating thy goodnes that it may be taken vp into thy sight as a sweet smell for the sauing of vs the whole world Receiue blessed Trinitie this oblatioÌ„ which we offer to thee in remeÌ„brance of the passion resurrection asceÌ„tion of Christ Iesus our Lord. We humbly beseech thee most merciful father through Iesus Christ thy son our Lord that thou accept blesse these gifts these preseÌ„ts these holy vndefiled sacrifices which we offer to thee first for thy Church holy and catholike c. For al true belieuers c. For al here present c. For the redemption of their soules and hope of saluation Certainely you speake these words long before you repeate Christs institution your Masse-booke doth apparently prooue that which I report if I mistake the secretes of your masse let the shame bee mine What then offer you in this place Christ or the creatures of bread wine By your own doctrine Christ is not present neither any change made til these wordes This is my body this is my blood be pronounced ergo before consecration the creatures of bread wyne keepe their
tēporall 249 The Prince charged to plant the faith and rule the church 250 The King of Englands charge 250 The Prince charged with Godlinesse 251 Their power is equall with their charge 252 The sword prohibited vnto Bishops 253 Only princes beare the sworde 254 The words of the oth 254 Supreme concluded out of saint Paul 255 The Apostles subiect vnto Princes 255 Suffering is a sign of subiection 256. The direction of the sword 257 Who shall direct the sword 257 No man Iudge of trueth 258 Discerners of trueth 259 The people are charged to discern the truth 260 The people must discerne teachers and try spirits 261 We be not bound to the Bishops pleasure 262 Wherein Bishops are superiour to Princes 263 The function not the person 264 The priests person subiect to the Prince 264 The right direction vnto trueth 265. The best direction for Princes 266. Who shall direct Princes 267. Successiō is no sure directiō 268 Bishops may erre 26◠Councels may erre 270 276 Number no warrant for trueth 270 Councels haue erred 272 Consent without staggering due only to the Scriptures 276 The Pope may erre 277.304.311 Christ praied for Peter 278 Peter failed in faith 279 Christ praied for all 280 No one set ouer the Church 281 The Romane Church may faile in faith 283 Cyprians place discussed 283 The misconstering of Non potest 284 Cyprians opinion of the Romanes 286 S. Pauls warning to them 286 S. Ierome misconstered 287 The Romanes may erre 288 Moses chaire might erre 289 The high Priests did erre 290 Christs promise to his Church 291 The godly may erre 292 S. Iohns words abused 293 The whole Church erreth not 294. The Iesuites condemned for flatterers by their owne fellowes 294 What Popes haue erred 296 Liberius an heretike 297 Honorius an heretike 299 Vigilius an heretike 301 Anastasius an heretike 302 Shiftes to saue the Popes from erring 303 Caiphas free from error 305 Caiphas as free from error as the Pope 305 The Popes tribunall hath erred 306 Vaine mockeries of the Iesuites to saue the Popes error 309 Their owne Church confesseth the Pope may erre 310 The iudge of faith must not erre 312 The contents of the third part The Pope hath no power to depriue the Prince 314 What God hath allowed to Princes the Pope cannot take from them 317 Princes not depriuable by the Pope 318 The Prophets deposed no Princes 319 Saul reiected by God not deposed by Samuell 320 Saul depriued of the succession not of the possession of the Crowne 321 Dauid annointed to succeed 325 Ieroboam plagued not deposed 325 Prophets may threaten 326 Vzziah stricken with the leprosie not assaulted with violence 327 Lepers seuered from mens cōpany but not disherited 328 Vzziahs pride 329 Athalia slaine 329. Achab reprooued not deposed 330. Elias induced the King and the people to kill Baals prophets 331 Elias no executioner 332 Fier frō heauen at Elias word 332. Iehu willed by God to take the sworde 333 Elizeus deposed no King 333 No Scripture confirmeth the deposition of princes 334 Kinges holde their dignities of God not of priests 335 The priest no Iudge of the princes crowne 336 The priest to direct the Iudge to decide 338 Princes not subiect to priestes 339. Princes depriued priests 340 Princes brake couenaunts with God and yet were not deposed 341 No prince deposed in the olde testament 341 Christ is King of Kinges but not the pope 342 Christ haue many prerogatiues which the pope may not haue 343 Binding of sinnes not of Scepters 344 Depriuing is not feeding 345 Temporall reuenge not lawfull for priests 445 Heretikes must not be saluted yet princes must be obeyed 346. Heretiks must haue their du 347 Society not duty prohibited 348 Wee must shunne the wicked but not disobeie the magistrate 348 Excommunication inferreth no deposition 350 The Iesuites claime temporall and externall power for the pope 350.351 God not Paul stroke Elima◠blinde 352 What is ment in S. Paul by deliuering vnto Sathan 353 The Apostles laid violēt hands on no man 354 The goods and bodies of men are Cesars right 355 Priests no Iudges of temporall thinges but makers of peace betweene brethren 357 The temporall and spiritual distinct regiments 358 The Ciuill state directed not punished by the spiritual 359 Princes committed to the preachers charge not subiected to the popes court 360 Princes may be put in mind of their duties 361 Nazianzene subiect to the prince 361 Howe the preacher correcteth 362 Howe manie degrees the pope will be aboue the prince 363 If he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnick 364 Ethnicks must not be deposed 364 The Church cannot depose the prince 365 The Church submitted herselfe to Princes 366 The Church hath no commissiō to depose Princes 367 The church with thē is the Pope 367 Neuer king obayed the Popes Censure 368 The Church neuer decreed that Popes should depose Princes 368 Impertinent examples 369 Excommunication is not deposition 370 The fact of Babylas 371 Babylas died vnder Decius 371 The Prince penitent for his sins 372 S. Ambrose and Theodosius 373 Anastasius excommunicatiō vncertaine 374 Michaels excommunication vnproued 374 Lotharius mistaken 375 Of seuen examples but one proued 375 S. Austens opinion of such excommunications 376 The end of excommunication ceaseth in Princes 376 The Church praied for tyrants 377 The Church praied for the welfare of hereticall Princes 378 The Church praied for Constantius 378 A lustie leape from the keyes to the sword 379 Rebellion against Princes defended to be iust and honourable warres 380 Graund theeues murtherers 381 The Popes warrant to rebels 381 The Pope cānot warrant Rebellion 382 Scriptures abused to serue Rebellion 383 Asa remoued his mother from her dignitie 383 The Iudiciall part of Moses Law is ceased 384 The execution of Moses Law cōmitted to none but to the magistrate 384 No reuenger but the Magistrate 384 Phinees fact had Moses warrant 385 Moses a magistrate and no priest after Aarons order 386 Moses a Leuite but no priest 387 Moses a Prophet no sacrificing Priest 388 And so was Samuel 389 Many offred that wer no priests 389 Sauls sin was infidelitie 389 The Priest did not appoint the wars 390 The warres of Abiah 391 Edome Libnah reuolting 391. Ten tribes might fight with two 392 The Church of Christ neuer alowed rebellion 392 S. Basil alowed not the people to rebel for his defence 393 S. Ambrose alowed no tumult at Millan in fauour of him 394. Athanasius did not stirre Constance against Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer spake euill of Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer disobaied Cōstantius 397 Athanasius would not haue the people rebel for his cause 398 The tumult at Alexandria for Peter against Lucius 399 Atticus harboured strangers but not armed subiects against their Princes 400 The Persian war was lawful 400 What Leo requested of the Emperour 401 The Christians were subiect to Iulian though he were an
The Popes power ouer Princes vsurped Rom. 13. Supreme is a manifest deduction out of S. Paul Supreme ouer Persons not ouer things We may not limit where we will obey the sword where not Where they may commaund we must obey We may not resist them but with reuerence indure them though they coÌ„mand against God and his truth Heathen Tyraunts had power of the sword ouer Christ and his Apostles Christ submitted himselfe to the Magistrate So Paul Peter both did and taught 1. Pet. 4. Rom. 13. Whom we must indure in that which is euill those must we obey in that which is good Aug. Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 166. The summe of the doctrine which we teach concerning the Princes supremacie The Iesuites iestes wherewith they mocke the Reader THE DIRECTION of PRINCES VNTO TRVETH Princes must take good care to come by faithfull direction The right directors vnto truth must be discerned by their doctrine not by their dignitie No mortall man may Iohn 14. 1. Iohn 5. * Iohn 5. 8. De Nuptijs ad Valentin lib. 2. â—ap 33. Optat. lib. 5. ad â—ermenianum Iohn 17. Bishops no iudges of the word of God The church is not iudge of the Scriptures Iohn 10. * Iames 4. Aust. in Psal. 2. * Idem de vera religione ca. 31. * Idem confess lib. 13. cap. 23. * Contra Cresc lib. 2. cap. 31. Idem Epist. 19. ad Hieronym Iudging taken for discerning Onely God must limit what is truth what error To discerne truth belongeth to all God willeth all men to trie spirites 1. Iohn 4. Matth. 7. And to discerne false teachers Iohn 10. The people must discerne teachers by their doctrine 1. Corinth 10. 1. Corinth 11. * Matth. 24. Colos. 8. Ephes. 5. 1. Iohn 3. * Heb. 5. 1. Corinth 14. Orig in Jeâ—â—â— Naue hom 2. The Fathers referred them selues to the iudgement of the hearers Ambros. Epi. li. 5. orat in Aux Luke 10. Matt. 10. The people haue libertie to discerne and charge to beware seducers Matth. 24. Matth. 23. The people not bound to beleeue the Pharisees doctrine except it accorded to the law of God Aug. in Iohan. tractat 46. Matth. 16. Ibidem vers 11â— 1. Iohn 4. 1. Thes. 5. Rom. 12. Philip. 1. 1. Corinth 2. The whole Scriptures giue the people leaue to discerne the truth and require them so to do Princes haue the same libertie to discerne trie spirites that priuate men haue The former precepts comprise the Prince aswell as the people Heb. 13. Vers. 7. No man bouÌ„d to the Preacher farther than he speaketh truth The Apostles tied to that condition 1. Pet. 1. * 1. Iohn 1. 1. Corinth 4. Galat. 1. The Angels themselues limited to that rule 1. Corinth 7. 1. Corinth 17. Chrysost. in 1. cap. 2. Epist. ad Timoth. hom 2. * Tertul. de praescript advers haereticâ—s * Chrysost. operis imperfect hom 20. in 7. ca. Mat. Much more teachers that are but seruantes of the law and therfore bouÌ„d vnto the law Princes must obey Bishops because they speak in Gods name and not in their owne Act. 20. Bishops haue commission to feede not to rule their flocks 1. Pet. 5. Iohn 21. They be superiour in teaching not in power to commaund and punish Their functioÌ„ is more perfect excellent because God worketh by their hands and mouthes Aug. contra Crescon lib. 4. cap. 6. Aug. in Psa. 10 In 1. cap. 2. epist. ad Tim. hom 2. De spiritu san lib. 3. cap. 19. 1. Corin. 1. 1. Corin. 3 The word sacramentes serue not to aduaunce the Preachers person The Preachers cal for subiection reuerence to their master not to themselues * 2. Corinth 4. * Mark 10. â— Corint 9. The trueth of God is tied to no certaine persons nor places Peters fayth is trueth in deede but that must be taken out of his owne writings not other mens reports No successour may be trusted against or besides the Apostles writings No poynt of fayth vnwritten Rom. 10. Basil. in sermone de fide Idem in Ethiciâ— definiâ— 8. Hilar. ad Constantium August Idem de Trinit lib. 9. Hieron aduersus Helnidium IdeÌ„ in Psal. 86. Tertul. de praescript aduers. haereticoâ— Idem aduersus HermogeneÌ„ Ambros. de virginibus li. 3. Ireneus lib. 3. cap. 1. Cyril de recta fide ad Reginas lib. 2. August de Pastoribus cap. 11. Idem contra literas Petiliani lib. 3. cap. 6. Caus. 11. quaest 3. § si is qui preaest No person nor place may be trusted in matters of faith besides and without the scriptures The best direction for Princes is the word of God Psal. 118. Deut. 17. Deut. 12. Esai 8. Luk. 16. Hieron Cap. 1. in epist. ad Galatas Tertullian de praescriptionib Tertullian vâ— supra Heretikes therfore couet a shew of scriptures because they be the grouÌ„ds of all trueth No tribunall on earth to the which trueth is fastned Where trueth is in doubt the Church is in more doubt The shepheards voice is not knoweÌ„ by the sheepe but the sheep by hearing the sheepheards voice * Iohn 10. Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Succession is no sure direction vnto trueth Ireneus lib. 4. Cap. 43. Cap. 44. Cap. 45. Act. 20. Mat. 7. 2. Pet. 2. 2. Cor. 11. 2. Cor. 11. Bishops haue beene heretikes Bishops asseÌ„bled may erre as wel as Bishops seuered Mat. 18. Two or three haue the same promise of assistance that two or three huÌ„dred haue Councels may erre Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. * Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. * Euag. li. 3. ca. 4. Epist. 55 ad Proropium A generall Councel doth not differ froÌ„ a particular but only in number of persons and places Vide distinct 16 § sexta § primo * Tomo concil primo * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 2. * Idem li. 2. c. 36. Tomo concilior primo A generall Councel erring the Church doth not erre A Councell may be reuersed by the rest that be present or absent Sozo li. 1. ca. 23. Sozo li. 2. ca. 25. Sozo li. 4. ca. 9. Leo epist. 52. ad Anatholium Ibidem Their own fellowes haue consessed that general councels might er Panor de elect electi potestate ¶ significasti Panorm IbideÌ„ A generall councel is not the Church Pigh hierarch ecclesiast lib. 6. cap. 5 4. Pighius is earnest that general CouÌ„cels haue erred in decisioÌ„ of faithes Lib. 6. Cap. 7. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. August de baptist lib. 2 cap. 3. S. Augustine confesseth that councels may erre Ibidem The second Councell of Ephesus was generall * Astio. 1. * Euagrius li. 1. Cap. 10. Reperitur chalcedonens concil actio 1. Chalced. concil actio 1. Ecclesiasticall iudges are often deceiued Contra Crescon lib. 2. cap. 21. August epist. 167. August contra Maximinum lib. 3. cap. 14. Ibidem lib. 3 cap. 14. The Arrians not bound to the authoritie of the Nicene councel The Councell of Ariminum was generall Socrat. lib. 2.
Alfon. lib. 1. ca. 2. Theosoph lib. 4. cap. 32. Then surely masters you do but flatter when you make the Pope free froÌ„ errour Erasmus annot in 1. Cor. ex cap. 7. And yet the Iesuites make it an high point of their faith The Iesuites reâ—use Councels and Fathers because they will not acknowledge the Pope hath erred Clements erronious decree Caus. 12. quaest 1. § lectissimus Plato dialog 4. de Repub. That althings ought to be common among christians is a grosse error The Bishop of Rome a Montanist Tertul. aduer Praxeam The Bishop of Rome an Idolater Marcellini Papae condemnatio tomo concil 1. The Bishop of Rome an Arrian Ruff. li. 1. ca. 27. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 37. Theodoret. lib. 2 cap. 17. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 17. Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ex pontificali Damasi in vita Liberij Hieron de ecclesiast script in Fortunatiano The Iesuites neglect al this to saue the Pope froÌ„ error Hieron ad chronicon Euse. adiectio Omission in one writer is no disproofe in an other Martin Polon in Liberiâ— Vincentius specul histor lib. 15. Cap. 11. 12. IdeÌ„ in Damaso Beleeue none but your selfe then you may be sure the Pope shall not erre Honorius died an heretike 6. Synod actio tiâ— 12.13.16.17.18 * Actio 12. * Actio 13. And for no cause but â—or that it condeÌ„neth the pope as an heretike * 6. Synod actio 18. habet haec epist. Leon. 2. ad Constant. Augustum * Nicen. Synod 2. Actio 3. * Nice Synod 2. actio 7. 8. Synod acti 7. If you would forge against your selues how much more for your selues Though Honorius were innocent yet three general Councels confesse the Pope might erre If one did er others may What reason we should beleeue late Papists speaking in fauour of the Pope against the ancient stories How Papists esteeme antiquitie and vniuersalitie wheÌ„ the Pope is touched Vigilius an heretike Liberati breuiarium cap. 22. Ex libro Pontificali in viâ—â— Vigilij Vigilius a lewd Pope Epist. Syluerij Papae ad vigil â—omo Concil 2. Pontificale in vita Vigilij Vigilius drawen by the neck round about Constantinople Distinct. 19. § Anastasius Ibidem glossa ¶ abegerunt Dist. 19. § Anastasius Ibidem glossa ¶ diuino The See was not free from error when the men did erre that sate in the See The Rhemish Testament 22. Luke The office iâ— not the worse though the maÌ„ be naught He that may erre cannot be supreme iudge ouer the whole Church The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Rom. 10. Faith faileth where the hart erreth The Pope may erre with hart mouth but his Court the Iesuits say can not erre Luke 22. Oraui pro te what place doth te signifie This is rather a plague vpon Peter his successours than a praier for them How the Iesuites constâ—r Christs wordes The Rhemish Testament vpon the 22. of S. Luke Of a particular extraordinarie fact no generall rule can be gathered God ruled Caiphas mouth against his hart Cyril in Iohan. lib. 8. cap. 3. IbideÌ„ li. 8. ca. 2. The diuel possessed Caiphas hart but God ordered his wordes 1. Kings 24. Mat. 27. Luke 8. â— Iohn 11. God can doe the like when he will Caiphas condemned our Sauiour for a blasphemer Matth. 26. Christs promise was not made to peter sitting in â—udgement Erronious Decretals The decretals of Celestinus lately pared and his error left out Alfons aduers. haereses li. â— cap. 4. Decretal lib. 4. de diuortiis § quanto Ibidem ¶ praedecessor Decretal lib. 4. de sponsa duoruÌ„ § licet praeter To decide of marriage against the truth is an error in faith Sixti Decretae lib. 5. tit 12. § exijt Extrauag Ioh. 22. tit 14. § cuÌ„ inter noÌ„nullos Ibidem He should haue told vs what right they might haue besides the propriety Christ and his Apostles renounced the proprietie and reserued the vse Is not this good diuinitieâ— Extra § cum inter nonnullos gloss ¶ declaramus * Expressè contrarium inâ—uit De consec dist 2. § Ego Beren Ibidem ¶ dentibus A sober vnderstaÌ„ding to expound the wordes clean contrarie to the text IbideÌ„ ¶ quaÌ„ Dominus Nicolaus haec sexta Synodus teneÌ„daÌ„ tradidit mihique firmauit They print no more than they list and mind to defend then they aske vs what errors we find in the Popes decres You might as well say the Pope may er in his shoes but not in his slippers or in the shade but not in the sun-shine We caÌ„ propose theÌ„ a thousaÌ„d Sees which they shal neuer proue to haue erred in open Consistories by definitiue senteÌ„ce Heretiks euer condemned for their writings preachings not for their definitiue senteÌ„ces Though no Pope had erred yet they may erre and so long they can be no iudges of faith The highest court in earth may misse the trueth The Church is directed by the word and spirit of christ not by the Popes consistorie Their owne Church 1400. yeres after Christ stoutly auoucheth the Pope might erre Distinct. 40. § Si Papa Abbaâ— VrspergeÌ„s anno 1080. Fasciculus reruÌ„ sciendarum in vita gestis Hildebrandi Ibidem Matth. Paris in Henrico 3. sub anno 1253. Massei Chronic. in anno 1409. * Naucler Chronograph generatio 47. anno 1409. * Genâ—brard li. 2 Chronograph anno 1414. * Concil CoÌ„stan sessio 37. Concil Constan. sessio 11. Concil Basil. sessio 34. anno 1439. Articuli Parisienses A Iudge must haue skill to discerne and power to coÌ„maund The Pope hath neither Erre he may Power to coÌ„maund or compel he hath none He that wil be iudge of truth must proue his claime All that we giue vnto princes is either to be obeyed or indured 2. Timoth. 3. Ierem. 26. Preachers may reproue Princes 1. Kings 15. 3. Kings 14. 3. Kings 21. 4. Kings 3. Mark 6. 2. Kings 12. 2. Chron. 19. 4. Kings 20. The Prophets reproued as well good kings as euill Preachers must not admit Princes to the Sacraments but on those conditions which god requirâ—th If Princes will be partakers of Gods graces they must receiue them as he doeth propose them Chryso in Mat. hom 83. Ibidem ad populum Antioch hom 60. This is newe Romish diuinitie which in deed is meere impietie D. ALLENS DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES cap. 4. LATELY SET FOORTH AGAINST THE EXECVTION OF IVSTICE The defence of the English Catholikes cap. 4. S. Thomas Thomas Aquine a late corrupt writer a great factor for the Pope The defence of English Catholikes Cap. 4. Toledoes opinion of a Prince excommunicate The case of K. Henrie the 8. What care we for Tholedoes opinion Preachers must not admit Princes to the Sacraments but on those conditions which God requireth Tell vs what warrant and not what fellowes they haue to resist the ordinance oâ— God THE DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES The sentence and definition of
himselfe This place maketh least of all against vs. A tradition may be written 1. Cor. 11. 1. Cor. 15. 2. Thes. 2. Cyp. ad Pompeiâ—â—m contra epist. Stephani Basil. contra Eâ—nomium li. 3. August de Bap. contra Donat. lib. 5. cap. 23. The custome of the church in baptizing her infants were not sufficient if the tradition were not Apostolike S. Augustine proueth it needfull for infants to be baptized whether it were lawfull was neuer doubted in his time * August de baptism contra Dâ—nâ—t li. 4. ca. 24. S Augustine vrgeth Baptisme to be needfull against the Pelagians who thought it superfluous not against those that were preuented with ineuitable necessitie * Iohn 3. The fact is not expressed in the Scriptures the cause is a Mat. 18. b Mat. 19. c Iohn 3. d 1. Cor. 7. e 1. Cor. 1. 2. Tim. 1. f 1. Peter 2. g Rom. 11. If Children be holy because their parents are holie then they haue no better holines than their parents and in all ChristiaÌ„ parents there is not inward sanctification h Act. 8. i Rom. 5. vers 15.17.21 August de baptis lib. 4 cap. a 22. b 23. c 24. The scripture proueth that ChildreÌ„ may be baptized must be if we wil haue them to be saued tradition proueth they were Baptized One and the same traditioÌ„ both vnwritteÌ„ and yet warranted by the Scriptures De baptis coÌ„tra Donat. li. 2. c. 7. De baptis coÌ„tra Dâ—nat li. 5. â— 23. * De baptis li. 1. cap. 7. RebaptizatioÌ„ against the Scriptures * De baptis lib. 4. cap. 7. De baptis lib. 5. cap. 4. De baptis lib. 6. cap. 1. How the same thing may be written yet vnwritten The Rhemish Testament 2. Thes. 2. That Mary was not knowen of her husband after the birth of our Sauiour is a reuereÌ„d truth but no point of faith De Eccl. dogmatibus cap. 69. * Vide Erasmi censuram in eundem librum * Cap. 4. Ibidem cap. 69. Enchirid. ad Laurens ca. 34. Christes mother was a Virgine as wel after his birth as after his conception * De Tempore sermo 123. How she forbare the company of her husband is no matter incoÌ„prehensible Ibidem sermo 10.15.17.18.25 * If you list to conclude and so remained to her death you may for vs but that is no point of faith whatsoeuer the former be Hieron aduers. Heluidium August de S. Virginit cap 4. The Papists would haue the holy ghost holde his diuiniâ—ie by tradition * Harding against the Apologie of the English Church part 2. cap. 1. * Athanas. de communi essentia Patris Filij Sâ—iritus sancti Dydimus de spiritu sancto Basil. contra Eunomium de spiritu sancto Nazianzen orat 5. de Theolog. Ambros. de spiritu sancto Cyril de Trinitate lib. 7. lib. de spiritu sancto August de Trinitate The fathers assured themselues they had expresse Scripture for the godhead of the holy Ghost a August epist. 66. b Idem qu. est supra Exod. lib. 2. quaest 59. c Contra Max. lib. 3. cap. 21. * What is Dilucide but plain Scripture Ambros. de Spiritus Sancto lib. 3. cap. 10. * Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 11. Is not euideÌ„ter euident Scripture Nazian de Theolog. orat 5. The spirite openly professed in the Scriptures to be God and expresly so recorded * De fide ad Petrum cap. 11. * Is this no Scripture Idem de Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. Idem de Trinit lib. 15. cap. 27. This reason may suffice any Christian man a Hierom. in epist. ad Gal. cap. 1. The sense and consequents are scriptures as well as the wordes b Athanas. in tract quòd Nicen Synod congruis pijs verbis vsa sit c Ibidem Hilar. ad Constant Hierom aduer Luciferianos f Ibiâ—em g Reuelâ—t 1. See Esa. 11. 2. Thes. 2. Reuelat. 1. 19. The spirit proceedeth from the sonne The Iesuites can shewe no poynt of fayth thâ—t the fathers beleeued without scripture Tertul. de praescrips aduers. haeret In vaine to conuince them by the scriptures which receiue not the scriptures Tertull. de praescriptic aduers. haereticos Tertullian speaketh of those sects which were in his time as Valentinus Martion and others who either denied the scriptures or turned them all to monsterous alegories Iren. â—ib 3. â—ap 2. Of these men spake Tertullian The reasons of Tertullians speach Tertull. de praescriptio aduers. Haeretices Ibidem Basill de spiritu sanct cap. 27. Basils place for traditions examined * This verie place graunteth things necessarie to saluation to be in the Gospell Ibidem cap. 29 * Many things receiued with out scriptures but no matters of faith The booke shamefully corrupted Erasmus censure vpon this booke Epist. Erasm. dedicatoria ad episc Culmens praefixa cap. 17. Erasm. calleth them Patches and dregges This place of all others crieth corruption Basill de spiritu sanct cap. 27. Marke the cohereÌ„ce of this place Ibidem cap. 27. A verie learned and wittie discourse forsooth * cap. 29. Basil. de spiritu sanctâ— cap. 29. This place maketh Basill aliue some ages after hee was dead a Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 26. b Basilij epist. 56 57.58.89 c Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 8. This place if it were Basils doth the Iesuits no good Their forged Basill speaketh of the ceremonies not of Doctrine I hope these traditions bee no points of fayth Basil. de spirit santi cap. 27. Ibidem This ergo was no Doctrine nor point of fayth which must be open to all the people Ibidem cap. 27. And prayers of the Church and the creed haue force to godlines which are here reckoned amongst traditions The papists when they waÌ„t Scripture to proue any poynt of their Doctrine runne by and by to tradition and tradition they proue by certayne forgeries of their owne Our fayth must depend on no mans word but only on gods Yf they could not boudly call theÌ„selues Catholiks they could do â—â—le Their adoration of Images neuer taught in the Church but by themselues * Epist. Tharasij Concilij ad CoÌ„stantinum act 7. * Eiusdem Concilij act 3. Constantinus Constant. Episc. Ionas Aurelianens episc de eultu Imaginum lib. 1. Adoration of Images openly detested in the west Church by such as tooke vpon them the defence of Images Ibidem * Infâ—rmo egeno simulachro * See leratissimo mancipantio errorâ— * Ibidem * This was after your Nicene Councel 50. yeres The schoolemen kept the words of the 2. Nicene councell and refelled their meaning with a farre wickeder resolution then the former Thomas part 3. quaest 25. ari 3 * Here the Diuell shewed himselfe in his likenesse Bonauen in 3. lib. senten dist 9. quaest 2. * Holcot in lib. Sapientiae lect 58. * Gerson de probatione spirit parte operum 1 They say they make not Images their goddes but to whatsoeuer they giue diuine
THE TRVE DIFFERENCE BETVVEENE CHRISTIAN SVBIECTION AND VNCHRISTIAN REBELLION WHEREIN THE PRINCES LAWFVLL power to commaund for trueth and indepriuable right to beare the sword are defended against the Popes censures and the Iesuits sophismes vttered in their APOLOGIE and DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES With a demonstration that the thinges refourmed in the Church of England by the Lawes of this Realme are truely Catholike notwithstanding the vaine shew made to the contrary in their late Rhemish Testament by THOMAS BILSON Warden of Winchester Perused and allowed by publike authoritie Matth. 22. Yeelde to Caesar the things which are Caesars and to God the things which are Gods August contra epist. Permen Lib. 1. Cap. 7. These men inobedient and impious in either neither yeeld Christian loue to God nor humane feare to Princes AT OXFORD Printed by Ioseph Barnes Printer to the Vniuersitie MDXXCV TO THE MOST EXCELLENT VERTVOVS AND NOBLE PRINCESSE ELIZABETH BY THE GRACE OF GOD QVEENE OF ENGland France and Ireland Defendor of the faith c. MOST RENOWMED AND VERtuous Princesse I am in hope it shall seeme no presumption to offer these my rude labours to the sight view of your Maiestie The cause is Christs as being the defence of his will and ordinance who hath mercifully placed and mightily preserued your Highnes in your fathers throne and expecteth as it were in recompence that the power which he hath giuen you and honor which hee hath heaped on you should bee imployed to protect his trueth and safegarde his Church within your Realme Which your religious and gratious disposition so wisely considereth and so carefully putteth in execution that not onely with good liking you beare the title to bee DEFENDOR of the Christian faith but with manie daungers and some enuie you stoupe to the verie burden of harbouring the afflicted and helping the distressed by all conuenient and godly meanes not refusing with Princely courage and constancie to endure the displeasures and abide the disfauours of such as seeke to restoare or vphold the decayed and accursed kingdome of Antichrist A thing rare in so high a state but a great blessing from God our Sauiour to be both protectour of his persecuted seruaunts and partaker of his sonnes reproches which perhappes worldly mindes doe warilie shun but your Christian wisedome well perceiueth to be the assured signe of Gods fauour and to haue his vndoubted promise of an immortall and farre more glorious Crowne than this which hee hath alreadie possessed you with This good long experience of your Maiesties most willing inclination and affection to plant pietie and relieue innocencie might embolden mee if there were no farther cause to presse to your Highnesse for the Patronage of so good a purpose but as the case nowe standeth besides this generall inducement I haue a speciall â—nforcement to leade mee to this onset The whole discourse doth so directly and namely treate of your Maiesties Scepter Sworde and Crowne that neither I might aske protection of anie other but of your royall person nor such demurres be published without your Highnesse leaue So is it most gratious Soueraigne that certaine your subiectes borne forsaking your happie gouernment and their natiue Countrie vpon doubt of Religion as they pretend haue feated themselues in two Societies or Colleges which they call Seminaries founded and furnished at the Popes charges beyond the Seas the one at Rome the other at Rhemes with purpose thither to drawe the best wittes out of England as well from both vniuersities as from other Grammer schooles there to traine them to their fansies and faction and thence to direct them backe into this Realme for the reconciling of poore soules as they say to the Catholike Church or in truer termes for the peruerting of simple and ignorant persons from the duetie which they owe to God and your Highnesse This attempt beeing throughlie looked into by the Lordes and others of your Maiesties most wise and worthie Counsel was thought as in deede it is verie dangerous and pernicious to your Realme that the capitall enuier of your state disturber of your peace and pursuer of your person should allure and abuse so great a number of your subiectes with a shewe of liberalitie and haue them in such bondage by the Rules of their Societie that they must obeie the will of their SVPERIOR the Popes Agent among them none other-wise than they would the voice of Christ from heauen for so them-selues professe and thereupon by your Highnesse authoritie proclamation was giuen out that none should depart the Realme without licence and a time prefixed for those that were abroade to returne home vpon some paines there specified farther threats if your Highnesse were thereunto prouoked The Guiders of these vngodlie Societies in steede of obeying your Highnesse edict fell to defend their owne act in departing this Land and resorting to Rome as also the Popes intent in erecting those Seminaries and appoincting a number of them to be sent into England to reduce the Realme to the Romish obedience which they call the faith of their fathers And because they were to laie the fault of their vnlawful departure long absence either on them-selues which they would not or on the state from which they were estraunged they declaring their founder by their fruites spared not in a slaunderous pamphlet of theirs intitled An Apologie and tâ—â—e declaration of the institution and 〈◊〉 of the two Englishe Colledges to charge your Christian milde and aduised regiment with no lesse crimes than heresie tyrannie and blasphemie as the onely causes why they departed and absented themselues so long from their naturall countrie agâ—ising none of your Ecclesiasticall Lawes to bee orderlie or duelie made but calling them straunge and vnnaturall dealings violent disorders which to all posteritie must needes breede shame rebuke repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature and most of all spurning at the act and othe which abolished the Popes vsurped power out of this Realme and declared your Highnesse to bee the SVPREME bearer of the sworde and establisher of publike Lawes within your Dominions a power confirmed to Princes by God and therefore not to be infringed or claimed by Priestes or Popes And to make their matter more saleable in the eares of the simple they vsed all their Rhemish art and eloquence to deface and traduce that right of your authoritie and bande of our obedience with cauilling Sophismes florishing termes as if that SOVERAIGNTIE vsed by your Highnesse were a thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall impossible and the O THE yeelded by vs intollerable repugnant to God the Church your Maiesties honour and al mens consciences Of such wastfull words and mightie bragges that booke is full hauing otherwise for matter and proofe nothing in it that is worth the reading much lesse the answering as being rather a Rhetoricall declamation of an vngracious witte than a substantiall confirmation of their actes and
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
coÌ„prised their politik obseruations as they be for the most part fals passing slaÌ„derous so to their defeÌ„ce are they idle altogether superfluous and argue rather mindes loaden with malice and tongues fraighted with poyson against the present state euen for very temporall and ciuill affaires than anie religious or dutifull respect of authoritie and submission to the Magistrate But such is the doctrine and education of their Romish seminaries they fell first to flattering and because that tooke no place in a rage they be now run to leude and open slaundering An example whereof to him that hath the booke and may read it appeareth as through the the whole so in fewe lines pag. 177. more spitefull wordes than which the rankest caterpiller in Rome could not haue vttered against the state and kingdom where wee liue not touching the persecution which they suffer but obiecting in plaine wordes to the whole body of her Maiesties most honorable most christian Counsel ignominious practises plaguie iniustice yea euen piracies proditions spiâ—ries soule artes to afflict and coosen the world round about vs with many such disloyall vnnaturall vntrue and vnhonest both surmises and reproches whereof that fardle is full This is one of the reasons why I neither might nor would at large refell their Iesuiticall Defence of English Catholikes as they terme it in deede an artificiall inuectiue defacing and slaundering the publike Gouernment of this realme to the vttermost of their powers The other is for that the summe and effect of those chapters which I haue omitted and might not without offence to the state be published are wholy reduced to those principal questions which I haue handled In their first second and fourth chapters their chiefe scopes are these that Manie Priests catholike in England haue bin condemned executed for meere matter of religion that Campian the rest of the Priests condemned executed vpon pretence of treason were neuer yet guiltie of any such crimes but behaued themselues verie discreetly and nothing seditiously in their answeres to the questions of the Bull of Pius Quintus In these the wise Reader soone perceiueth the whole contention toucheth the Popes iurisdiction and claime denied him by the Lawes of this Realme and his power to depriue the Prince of her crowne and scepter which was the sole respect the Bull of Pius Quintus had The iustifying then of these two foundations with cleare and pregnant proofes had beene requisite for the Iesuites if they had purposed to manifest the innocencie of their brethren where nowe by their rhetoricall vagaries inucighing at the partes and circumstances of their inditementes conuictions and executions they storme at the course which the Iudges obserued but saie nothing to the crime wherewith the guiltie were burdened The Popes power to depriue Princes they will say they haue fully proued and so their brethren in trueth and equitie to be cleared If that were so they sayde somewhat but as I haue shewed they profferre it often they neuer proue it And therefore on the contrarie part as I neede not strengthen the publike iudgements of this Realme with the particular reportes behauiors hopes and enterprises of the Iesuites hauing their triall in Courtes of Recorde and places of vsuall and open iustice neither is that incident to my calling or requisite in these cases so for the maine and generall ground of the crime there fastned on them and after punished in theÌ„ which was that to aide assist persuade or defend the Popes Bull depriuing the Prince of her crowne and throne to incourage her Subiectes or enimies on that pretence to rebellion or inuasion was high and hainous treason the trueth I say of this illation is euident by the third part of this my booke where that point of their Defence is refuted So for the rest which would needes venter their liues in the like quarell I meane for inuesting the Pope with the princes sworde the Iesuites should haue brought sound and sufficient proofe that the Pope by Gods lawe hath a Soueraigne and supreme power ouer this Realme to make Lawes to appoint penalties to dispose the goods landes and bodies of Clerkes and others for such causes and crimes as they count spirituall For this is the power which the Pope lately vsurped in this Realme and from which hee is now rightly and orderly repelled by the Lawes of the same It is no treason with vs to make him chiefe Pastour of your soules nor to giue him an Episcopall or Apostolicall authoritie ouer the whole Church though that also bee a wicked and frantike Heresie but to giue him an externall dominion and coerciue iurisdiction ouer this Realme aboue and against the Prince which the Apostles of Christ neither had nor could haue without apparent iniurie to the Magistrate this is it the Execution of iustice doeth duelie respect and this is farre from any matter of faith or religion Right to commaunde and power to compell belong properly to the sworde by the Lawe of God which they can not attribute to the Pope but they must make him a Superiour Magistrate to the prince in guiding and prescribing the vse of the sworde and consequently the prince to holde her sword and scepter at his pleasure and if she refuse to be streightway displaced This wilie conueiaunce to tie Princes swordes fast to the Popes side and to spoyle them of their Crownes if they doe not execute his rage is the chiefest plotte that Iesuites haue at this instant to resettle the kingdome of Antichrist for which they haue not so much as the paring of anie Scripture or Councell or Father in the Church of Christ for a thowsande yeares and yet in our dayes it must bee a meere matter of Religion and the forefront of their brethrens defence But no maruell if they which make open rebellion a point of their faith so soone consent to haue the Popes presumption holden as the surest key of their Religion To their thirde chapter that they haue great cause to complaine of iniust persecution intollerable seueritie and crueltie towardes Catholikes in Englande and wee no reason to doe the like for the iustice as thy call it doone on vs in Queene Maries and other Princes dayes I neede not replie To this conceite of the Iesuites that they may consume whome they will with fire and faggotte and no man must stoppe them of their passage or hinder their pastimes without iniustice and crueltie what shoulde I saie but that I thinâ—e the Scribe was skant waking whiles hee was penning this drowsie Diuinitie What learning I will not aske what witte was in this to make such definitiue resolutions that no Prince may amerce or imprison their adherentes without intollerable seueritie and crueltie forsooth they might hang and burne olde and young men and women for doubting of their Decretalles and all this with prayse though it neuer pleased anie good man in the Catholike Church
missarum solemnia The like phrase is elsewhere to be found in the workes of S. Austen Post sermonem fit missa Catechumenis After the sermon the Catechists are willed to depart and Ambrose in the same epistle which you quote Post lectiones atque tractatum dimissis Catechumenis After the reading and expounding of the scriptures the Catechists being demised Where these wordes that you sticke on follow Ego mansi in munere missam facere caepi I went forward and sent the rest away that might not bee partakers of the mysteries And that missam facere is not to say masse as you dreame but to giue leaue to depart the very Latine tongue woulde leade you if you were not more than froward and so may you find the word missa in Leo Gregorie and others and yet they no Masse-priests To maintaine your beades Agnusdets and other consecrated creatures you note where S. Austen and Paulinus as familiar friendes sent eche other cakes and where Gregorie gaue some monuments of Peter Paul and others to Princes Bishops for presents This is not answerable to your enterprise you bring vs certaine toyes hallowed as you say with the Popes blessing and where you deliuer them you take promises vowes and othes that such persons shall keepe communion and yeeld subiection to the Bishop of Rome which is nothing els but the slocking of her Maiesties people from her and the deuoting of them their bodies goods and forces to serue the Popes turne That power to forgiue sinnes must bee holden in Capite of the Pope you produce Cyprian who saith no such thing in that place which you cite but only calleth the Church of Rome a principal Church whēce vnitie among priests in former ages did spring and Leo whose priuate affection in aduauncing his Sea doth carie light credit in the iudgement of wise men is farre from a Catholique consent in the iudgement of all men yet if hee meane as Cyprian and Austen doe when they say Exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur vt ecclesia vna monstretur The beginning of this power came from one which was Peter to declare the Church to bee one Et Petrus quando claues accepit ecclesiam sanctam vniuersam significauit ecclesia ergo quae fundatur in Christo claues ab eoregni caelorum accepit in Petro Peter when he receiued the keyes signified the holy and Vniuersall Church for the Church which is built vppon Christ receiued of him the keyes of the kingdome of heauen in Peter If this be his meaning as it may well be we refuse him not and then ab ipso quasi quodam capite must bee from him the first that had it For caput is either the chiefe or the first otherwise that the Apostles held their function and power vnder and of Peter in capite is a false and erroneous sense flatly resisted by S. Paul affirming that they which seemed to bee somewhat as Iames Peter and Iohn bestowed nothing on him and refuted by our Sauiour him selfe where hee sayth As my father sent mee so I not Peter sende you The rest of your authorities be they scriptures or fathers impeach not vs nor our doctrine but are such as we may well admit without any doubt or scruple Your seuenth and last Chapter hath neither text nor title that is any way preiudicial to vs. We grant your allegations deny your applicatiōs Martyrs be glorious witnesses of Gods trueth their death is pretious in his sight but flatter not your selues you be no Martyrs You bend your selues against God and his annoynted in a wicked and desperate quarell receiue your desertes for preparing the subiects of this Realme by colour of religion to take her Maiestie for no Queene when the Pope shall say the word and to be ready to refuse their allegeance and ioyne with any straunger that will inuade the land This is the whole furniture of your Apologie to my knowledge I haue not omitted one place that maketh any thing for you The rest is a fardle of phrases shadowed with faire pretences and plausible perswasiōs fit to preuaile with worldly minds that neuer tasted the trueth which if we should seeke to repell with like maner and order of writing we should but wast paper and wearie the reader and therefore if you list to discusse the Principall intents of your Apologie more exactly than hitherto you haue I will ioyne this issue with you that notwithstanding all you haue sayd or can say you be neither good subiects nor Catholiques If not I will referre the iudgement of your proofes to the learned and leaue you to God Phi. We know our cause to be so good that wee neede not shrinke from any triall Theo. Then take what helpe you can of your Apologie to defend your selues and as wee passe through your chapters obiect you that which you thinke strongest Your vauntes and vanities I will not answere but onely such things as bee most materiall Phi. Content with that Theo. And as occasion is offered I will shewe that you neither obey God nor your Prince Phi. Do what you can we feare you not Theo. If you thinke any thing worth your paynes in your first chapter you were best begin Phi. Haue wee not good cause to finde our selues agreeued that so many strange nations hauing their Churches with freedome to serue God after their manner in our Country onely Catholiques which in our fathers dayes had all for whom and by whome all Churches and Christianitie arose can by no intercession of forraine Potentates nor no sighes nor sorrowes of innumerable most loyall subiects obtayne one place in the whole land to serue their Lord God after the rites of all other good Christian Princes Priests and people of the worlde Theo. If you meane that strangers haue leaue to professe diuers religions in this Realme you wittingly slaunder vs against your owne conscience for in England the people both strange and liege worship God the father in spirite trueth according to the Gospel of his sonne agreeing together in the substance of one fayth and the right order of Christes sacraments onely straungers are suffered in their Churches to vse that tongue which they best vnderstand as S. Paul appointeth and to retaine such ceremonies of their owne as bee neither against faith nor aduerse to good maners and therefore by S. Austens iudgement goe for INDIFFERENT and may bee borne in Christian vnitie without offence or confusion But if this bee your meaning that where straungers haue fréedome to serue God after the same manner that wee doe you should also be licenced to bring in your Masse notwithstanding it be quite repugnant to the seruice of God which this land receiueth Your consequent is more than absurd because their faith and religion agreeth with ours yours is cleane contrarie Next you sorow to see no mediation of friends no threats of foes
no tumults at home no despites abroade able to withdrawe the Princes hart from liking and louing the trueth but the godly reioyce to see so perfect a mirrour of faith and deuotion in a Christian Queene that shee rather chooseth to suffer your wrongs and abide your reproches with patience than to steppe one foote from that Lord which hath graciously blessed and mightily preserued her person Scepter and people from the iawes of his and her enemies Phil. And where no Iewe no Turke no Pagan can by the law of God nature or nations he forced from the manner and perswasion of his owne Sect and seruice to any other which by promise or profession he or his progenitors neuer receiued onely we that neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers euer gaue consent to any other faith or worship of God but haue in precise termes by protestation and promise bounde our selues in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone are against diuine and humane Lawes and against the Protestants owne doctrine in other nations not onely bereaued of our Christian dew in this behalfe but are forced by manifold co-actions to these rites which we neuer knew nor gaue our consent vnto Theo. Fewe men without your cunning could huddle so many so manifest vntruthes in one sentence No Iew no Turke say you may be forced from his religion If that were so what maketh it for your defence which chalenge both the names and roomes of Christian men and are in respect thereof for iust cause required to performe that in deede which you pretend in woorde and by moderate correction driuen to keepe the Christian faith which in Baptisme you professed For heretikes of al sects and sortes may be compelled to followe truth though infidels might not and so your inference fayleth when you say no law forceth Iewes or Pagans from their perswasion therefore not Christians nay rather if we graunt Iewes and Turkes excusable for these two reasons lacke of knowledge and want of promise certainely Papists being neither void of the first nor free from the last may yea must bee compelled of Christian magistrates for dread of punishment tempered with good instruction to forsake their heresies and forbeare their idolatries wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced As the ioynts of your argument bee loose so bee the parts vntrue For king Darius seeing Daniel strangely deliuered from the Lions denne made this decree that all people nations and languages in the worlde should reuerence and feare the God of Daniel Likewise the king of Niniueth at the first denouncing of Gods wrath by Ionas immediatly with the consent of his Counsel caused this proclamation to be made through the Citie that man and beast shoulde put on sackcloth and cry mightily to God and euery man turne from his euill way Lo Sir two kings precisely commaunding their subiects and therefore readie to punish the refusers without delay to worship a strange and vnknowen God albeit the true God whome neither they nor their forefathers made promise to serue and yet I thinke you will not say they brake the Law of God nature or nations in so doing S. Austen will assure you that the King of Niniueh did God good seruice by compelling the whole Citie to please God A thirde instance for this matter is the calling of Paul first as a Iew and so within the limits of your assertion then strooken with blindnes amased with terror from heauen and therefore compelled to Christianitie by corporal violence y touched Paul neerer than impouerishments or imprisonments wherewith you find your selues greeued Behold saith that learned father in Paul Christ first compelling afterward teaching first striking then comforting and hee that entred into the Gospel constrained with bodyly punishment laboured more than all those that were called only by mouth I might refel your idle florish by the later examples of Polonia Russia Lithuania forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auncient Idoles and receiue baptisme By the long and sharpe warres which diuers good Princes maintained of purpose to compell the Saxons and Vandales to the faith By the sore vexations and afflictions of the Iewes in euery Christian common wealth Al which both old and new first last serue to conuince that Pagans Iewes haue bene forced by rigor of lawes and other meanes to yeeld to the truth without any former promise or farther knowledge which you stifly deny but as I said this is not our question You are no Iewes no Pagans but in shew Catholiques in deed heretikes you were baptized you chalēge an interest in the Church Sacraments by reason of this your first promise and next your outward profession of Christes name you stand in duetie bound and of right may be compelled to serue God not as your owne fansies perswade you nor as the Church of Rome leadeth you but according to the prescript of his word and that tenor of faith which the Prophets and Apostles did teach Phi. We bound our selues in precise termes by protestation in Baptisme to the religion fayth and seruice Catholique alone other faith and worship of God wee neuer consented vnto neither in our owne persons nor in our forefathers Theo. This is your common charme wherewith you bewitch many simple soules bearing them in hand that in Baptisme they vowed to professe your Italian religion which God knoweth is nothing so For in whose name were you baptized Philander In Pius the fift or Gregorie the thirteenth I thinke you were not I knowe you should not no not in Peters or Pauls but in Christes alone Then stande you bound by baptisme to yeelde faith and obedience to no person or place but onely to Christ the first author and ordayner of this sacrament Preach ye the Gospel saith Christ He that beleeueth and is baptized shal be saued What els must you preach what els must they beleeue that will be baptized but the Gospel ergo the preacher and the beleeuer that is the baptiser and the baptised are bound precisely to the Gospel All yee saith Paul that are baptised into Christ haue put on Christ and are the sonnes of God by faith in Christ Iesus hauing one Lord one faith one Baptisme Perceiue you not that in baptisme which no Protestation of yours can frustrate the beleeuers do put on Christ their Lorde not his pretended vicar and are made the sonnes of God not the vassals of Rome by faith which dependeth neither on man nor Angell but directly belongeth to God and his word If thou beleeue with al thine heart sayth Philip to the conuerted Eimuch thou mayest be baptized Now fayth commeth of hearing and that hearing of the worde of God as Paul witnesseth So that when you were Christned you made promise to beleeue nothing saue the word of God whereby faith is engendred and nourished My sheepe heare my voyce
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
admonisheth her Maiestie that she must answere to God not onely for things done by her commandement and knowledge but for whatsoeuer is done vniustly by her name or authoritie though she neuer knew thereof And yet here find great fault that her Highnes respecting her duetie to God and accompt that she must make denieth to beare the burden of your wicked abuses and poysoned errors which no prince can auoyde that permitteth your Masses and licenceth your rites because the seeing and suffering your impieties is a plaine consent and in manner an open communion with your vnfruitful workes of darknes To couer the shamefulnes of your demaund you produce certaine kingdoms and Countries affected in religion otherwise than you neuerthelesse content to suffer your seruice within their dominions If it were so what inferre you thence that wee safely may doe the like Your consequent is nothing worth their doings can be no discharge for vs we may not imitate the vices but the vertues of good men First proue they do well then vrge their example Your soueraigne perceiuing by Gods law what euery Prince ought to doe regardeth not what other Princes please to doe deseruing thereby the more thanks with God and praise with men for that in guiding her people she rather embraceth Christian pietie than irreligious policie But in deede you doe the Germanes and Heluetians wrong to quote their names for tolerating two religions The reformed Churches and States there bee so farre from admitting the full Dose of your heresies that by no meanes they can digest one dramme of your ceremonies the rest I thinke persisting in ignorance retaine your faith in the same fashion they were wont Amongst whom because many Dukes Landgraues Marquesses Counties yea Bishops Barons Abbots and Gentlemen haue regall iurisdiction within their precincts it is no newes to see many lawes vnder many Lordes and in diuers regiments diuers religions As for the kings of Suetia Bohemia Polonia not able to reduce their Countries to the profession of one faith neither we may reproue theÌ„ as negligent nor you can alledge them as indifferent since not their owne fault but other mens force keepeth theÌ„ from attempting any redresse by their princely power which the nobles restraine and Commons receiue with this prouiso that their accustomed freedome of conscience bee no way prohibited or interrupted Howbeit this kind of dealing in my iudgement is very captious When you should exemplifie two religions vnder one Magistrate you tell vs of seuerall rulers bent to maintaine their seuerall faiths in steede of shewing some that be willing to ioyne falsehoode with trueth you repeat such as can not auoyde that confusioÌ„ We looked for Princes which at least had bene Christians you make your supplie with infidels and heretiques To passe the loosenes of your first allegations what meaneth the lewdnes of your latter examples Is your cunning so small or purpose so vile that you bring Pagans and Arians to countenance your intention What follie what madnes was it for you to thinke that a Prince furnished with so rare gifts of wisedome learning and vertue woulde swarue from the steps of the famous and worthie kinges of Iudah to bee sorted with Saracens and repeale the lawes of religious and auncient Emperours to take part with the chiefest vpholders of Arianisme For if God him self had not decided the case but examples of men might beare some sway King Dauid was so farre from suffering the worshippe of any strange God within his Realme that he protesteth Their offerings of blood will I not offer neither make meÌ„tion of their names with my lippes When would he think you confirme their honour and seruice with his royall authoritie that thus disdayned them commoÌ„ humanitie The good kings of Iudah were fauoured and blessed of God for walking in the wayes of Dauid their father and purging the lande from all sacrifices and ceremonies not prescribed by Moses Law contrariwise Salomon was reiected for admitting other Gods to be serued within his dominioÌ„s besids the God of Israel though this toleration were graunted in respect of his owne wiues that were strangers and Ieroboams politike deuise to worship the same God in Dan and Bethel after a newe manner turned to the destruction of him selfe and his posteritie Which feareful effects of God wrath made Constantine to decree that al teÌ„ples of heretikes should bee without any denial ouerthrowen in no place publike or priuate from that day forward should their asseÌ„blies be suffered Iouianus refused to gouerâ—e those which were not found in faith I saith he that am a ChristiaÌ„ can not become your Emperour that are the disciples of IuliaÌ„ a renegate from Christ Gratian at his first entrie finding al places ful of Arians the lawes of Valens his vncle making for them fearing some generall tumult if he should preseÌ„tly distresse so many gaue leaue that euery ReligioÌ„ might haue Churches Oratories with freedom immunitie But being once selted ioyned with Theodosius he coÌ„manded that al heresies should keepe sileÌ„ce for euer as interdicted by Gods and mans law that none should any longer presume to teach or learne prophane doctrine The same prohibition did Arcadius and Honorius continue with great seueritie Let all heretickes vnderstand that all places must be taken from them as well Churches other open places of resort as priuate houses in all which let them be debarred from seruice both by night and by daie the Lord deputie to be fined an hundred pounds if he permit any such thing in sight or in secret Theodosius the yonger Valentinian his cosin comprising in a long beadrole sundrie sorts of hereticks appoint that no where within the Romane Empire their assemblies or praiers be suffered that all lawes made to prohibite their meetings should be reuiued stand good euerlastingly These we take to be meeter Presidents for Christian Princes than Turks Persians and Arians not worthy to be named in the Church of God much lesse to be followed But imagine the credit of your Arian Emperours were lesse than it is why should you peruert their actions why depraue you foure stories in sixe lines Constantius Valens were not enduced as you pretend of their naturall benignitie to yeeld Athanasius a Church in Alexandria they were compelled much against their wils of necessitie to suffer that which of curtesie they would neuer haue consented vnto For Constans the West Emperour denounced open hostilitie to Constantius his brother if Athanasius were not restored He saith Socrates driuen to this extremitie was aduised by the Bishops of his owne faction rather to grant Athanasius the regiment of a Church than to feele the smart of ciuill warres and Valens knowing that an infinite number in Aegypt and Alexandria fauoured Athanasius and fearing least a sedition kindled in those partes the people being vehement and fierce by nature might indanger his state ceased from molesting him
and his followers These things expressed in your Author you purposely skip vrging the facts dissembling the causes With like boldnesse you falsifie the reason why Valens was afterward punished It is true that he did teare the supplication of Terentius his Captaine requesting one church for the Catholiks at Antioch It is also true that his armie was ouerthrown himselfe terriblie cōsumed in fire by the Gothes but that he was therfore plagued because he would not suffer two faithes to be plāted in Antioch that is your own surmise Nicephorus hath no such circūstāce Neither did Valētiniā profer the like to S. Ambrose You wrest the story frō his right course to serue your purpose but he required Ambrose to diliuer vp a church in Millā to the which he with other Arians would resort To this Ambrose made answere If I be forced from my Church I can not resist I wil neuer consent to yeeld my right Naboth defended his vine with his blood shal I betray the Church of Christ Valentinian shall rather take from me my life than my faith And for ought that I see the constant refusall of this graue learned godly Bishop withstanding to death the toleration of two religions in one Citie doth preiudice your assertiō more than the demand of a rash yong Arian cā further it If you tell vs that your Catholike seruice may be suffered in this Realme notwithstanding both Gods and mans lawes banish hereticall assemblies then you recant the permission of two contrarie faithes in one Realme and resume the case which lieth in question betwixt vs fondly supposing your selues to bee right Catholikes and those that mislike you to be condemned hereticks which is still denied by vs and of your part neuer yet proued Athanasius and Ambrose were Catholikes in deede but not acquainted with your worshipping of Images your adoring the Sacrament your praying in a strange tongue your changing the Lords supper into priuate Masses the rest of your impieties they neuer hard they neuer taught therefore till you can make good proofe that your faith and religion agreeth with theirs they standing by your owne confession for Catholiks you must of consequent as differing from them in manie substantiall points of doctrine be reputed for hereticks Phi. Which only grace of our Prince if we might haue obtained no pleasure profit or preferment that the world beside yeeldeth in any part of Christēdom should haue kept vs out of our deerely beloued countrie so long for whose saluation and so much libertie of conscience as is mentioned we haue often wished diuerse of our persons in perpetuall prison for pledge and warrant of the peaceable and loyall demenor of our brethren the Catholickes and for securitie of the state whereof hir wise Counsellers haue alwayes in such cases greatest regard But neither this durst our Catholike brethren demand in their manifold feares doubts and disgraces at home nor we in such suspition and misconstruction of all our actions could euer with hope attempt it abroade And alas much lesse then the graunt of publike places for exercise of our auntient religion would haue giuen vs infinite contentment of the Catholikes within and haue called home most of them abroad when both sortes would haue counted it a singuler grace during the distresse of these dayes to haue had by permission pardon conniuence their soule rights without which men perish doubtlesse euerlastingly in ther priuate houses and chambers yea in prisons in the closest and least offensiue manner in the world as the Apostles and Confessours did often in the primitiue Church and S. Cyprian testifieth that some did in his time and S. Anastasius him selfe did with the Catholiks in Antioch From all which being by rigour of penall statutes diligent inquirie of temporall Officers watchfulnesse of ministers spies and promotors continually restrained and by them often chased from their houses spoiled of their goods disgraced and discouraged in all their affaires many thousandes yea the farre greater part of hir Maiesties subiects languish awaie in sorrow and sadnesse irremediable Theo. You departed this Countrie neither expecting hir Maiesties leaue nor regarding hir lawes and would you now be fet home with a triumphe iniurious to God infamous to the Land dangerous to the Prince No man asketh of his equall anie thing but that which is honest and safe for the graunter onely the Iesuites step foorth confidently to demaund at their Soueraignes handes no lesse than the manifest breach of Gods law ioyned with the subuersion of hir royal estate For how displeasant is it to God that light should be matched with darknesse and Christ yoked with Antichrist And how pernicious it is for hir Maiesties quiet and happie continuance to suffer him that hath alreadie cursed hir person remoued hir crowne discharged hir subiectes inuaded hir dominiōs whose seedmen and sworne legates ye be to steale from hir the peoples harts vnder a clowde of Catholike religion and fained deuotion the most honorable and wise Sages of this Realme so well conceiue that I gesse you shall haue much to do with all your colourable pretences and eloquent florishes to shadow the clearnesse of their long and grounded experience To salue this sore we shall haue you foorthcomming for warrant that your brethren shall vse loyall and peaceable behauiour Were this contention for earthly not heauenly things and did it concerne not Christs glory but hir graces indemnitie what a toie this is for a few shifting Friers to thinke them selues meete pledges for a Princes securitie Submission to God and your Prince would better become you than this malepert kinde of prescribing on what conditions you will returne what hostages you will giue what lawes you will agnise which couenants whether you rudely purpose them or manerly wish them no Magistrate will receiue least your burning harts and vnquiet heades slide from misliking to murmuring and so to resisting But your brethren are so bashfull at home that they neuer durst demaund any such thing you so fearful abroad that you could not attept it with hope yet are you so bold that you scatter this inuectiue which chargeth the state with many vile and vnciuill outrages and your associates of the North were so brainsicke that putting themselues in armes against their liege Lady they required by solemne proclamation forsooth not only safe-conduct for your Masse but also the releasing of prisoners vanishing of preachers reuersing of laws displacing of coūselers Phi. If the grant of publike places for our seruice seeme much we wil content our selues with chambers prisons Theo. The priuatnes of the place when the fact is il neither acquitteth the doer frō wickednes neither excuseth the permitter from negligence No corner is so secret no prison so close but your impietie there suffred doth offend God infect others confirme your own frowardnes If your religion be good why should it lacke Churches if it be
the truth of Christ which is all that Sainct Hierom saith what inferre you thence that Rome is now the like This illation commeth twelue hundred yeares too short of your antecedent and no waie dependeth vpon S. Hieroms wordes vnlesse you thinke that Rome now because shee beareth the same name must also chalenge the same vertues and praises which Rome so longe since both had and deserued which were verie ridiculous But is this all you will adde before you growe to your maine conclusion Phi. The greatest part is yet behinde For as I beganne whither shoulde we rather flie than to him whose Predecessors gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it after in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme often receiued harbored and releeued diuerse blessed Bishops and Priestes of our nation as well in the times of their prosperitie as persecution and who haue receiued againe of all our Princes Prelats and People all duetifull and correspondent honours and good Offices for so many hundred yeares togither when they and their dominions florished in much glorie and felicitie and were dreadfull to Gods enemies the Churches and their owne among whom hir Maiesties Father for his worthie writinges and doings against the Lutherans receiued the glorious and eternall title of Defender of the faith to him of whose Predecessors all the famous Fathers called for ayde comfort and counsell in their like distresses Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius and Marcus Chrysostom and Augustine of Innocentius Basill of Tiberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Milecius of Damasus Theodorete of Leo the great and all the rest of otherholy Popes as time and necessitie required to him whose Seat as Eusebius reporteth of Sainct Denys of Corinth did alwayes sende reliefe to all the Christians persecuted and condemned to mettalles and refreshed all the faithfull comming vnto it as the Parent the children to him who as he canonically succeedeth all these in Seate doctrine and dignitie so is inferiour to none farre passeth many and resembleth most Sainct Gregorie the great our Apostle in all charitie hospitalitie zeale and tendernesse of heart and affection toward the desolate namely our nation for the spirituall calamitie whereof the writer of this hath seene him weepe full hartily and hath heard him saie the goods of that holie Seat whereof he had the dispensation were for the poore afflicted domesticals of faith Finallie whither could we with more hope haue recourse than to him by whose bounteous goodnesse so manie Patriarches Bishops learned Gentlemen and Christians of all sortes English Scottish Irish Almans Hungarians Syrians Armenians Cyprians and all other vnder the Turke or any way for Christes sake oppressed or impouerished haue beene and shall be relieued Theo. A long processe to little purpose Graunt that diuerse good men in times past haue sent and gone to Rome for counsell and comfort in cases of distresse which is all in effect which you can or doe say what conclude you nowe Phi. That wee may doe the like Theo. The like you may but not the contrarie Phi. We follow precisely their steps Theo. That we denie Well you may goe to Rome as they did and so your iourney not differ from theirs in the paines which you take nor the place which you see but you neither carrie with you the same mindes that they did neither doth your holy Father content him selfe with those meanes which his predecessors vsed For the auncient Bishoppes of Rome were duetifull and obedient Subiectes to the Christian Emperours and dealt by petition and supplication in most humble wise for their afflicted brethren they neuer offered armes nor encouraged Rebell against the superiour Powers no not when Constantius the Arian banished Liberius the Bishop of Rome for dissenting from his opinion nor when Iulius the Apostata renounced the faith and openly fell to Gentilisme but euer submitted them selues to the same Lawes and paines that other godly Bishops did when the Prince tooke part with error And for this cause the traueling then to Rome whiles the Bishop there embraced the truth obeyed the State assisted their brethren by good and lawfull meanes coulde no waie be displeasant to God iniurious to Princes nor daungerous to common-wealthes In our dayes it is farre otherwise The Pope nowe taketh vpon him to depose Kinges to inuade Realmes to authorize rebellion yea to curse all that yeelde any subiection or duetie to those Magistrates that withstand their fantasies Which vile and intollerable presumption of the late Bishops of Rome neither Cyprian nor Athanasius nor Chrysostome nor Augustine nor Basill nor Hierom nor Theodorete in their times euer founde or feared And therefore both you must alter the leude perswasions of your heartes and your holie Father must leaue his wholie practises to pull Princes out of their thrones by stirring sedition and inuading their Dominions before your flocking to Rome can bee warranted by these examples Phi. I maruell you still obiect that which wre by oth haue purged You knowe wee haue sworne that in going to Rome wee had no such intent Theo. Your oth if it bee true cleareth one man for one viage but which of you doeth or can sweare for all other times and persons Howbeit in this place wee doe not vrge you with your intentes nor attempts against her Maiestie wee onely weigh the strength of your argument that you may slie to Rome as well as some learned and auncient Fathers haue done This collection of yours is not good because the bishop of Rome nowe claymeth full power to depriue Princes of their Crownes and discharge their Subiectes from all obedience contrarie to the worde of God and examples of Christes Church which in those dayes whiles these Fathers whom you mention liued the Bishoppes of Rome neither did or durst presume Phi. Wee meddle not with the Popes clayme hee can answere for himselfe Theophil You must meddle with it and bring ineuitable proofe for it before your consequent will bee currant or your slight to Rome lawfull Phi. If wee sought to Rome for succour against the Prince your saying were somewhat but I haue often tolde you we doe not Theo. And I haue told you as often that graunt you did not the Popes clayme to discharge Kinges and Queenes at his pleasure is enough to reuerse your argument Wee care not what you dissemble of pollicie for a season but what he chalengeth for euer as of right His pride not your craft is the thing we stand on and that being such as the learned Fathers whom you name neuer sawe nor suspected maketh so great a difference betweene those dayes and these that from their fact to yours no good consequent can be framed And yet I could tell you besides that when hee commaundeth you must and will execute So that although you were no seekers nor prouokers of his vnchristian dealinges
greatest Councel that euer was was called by him the determination of those fathers lawfully confirmed beseeching the Emperour with teares to imitate his Father Constans vpon the hearing of these thinges presently writeth to his brother and warneth him to keepe inuiolably the inheritance of his fathers faith Constantius moued with thâ—se letters appointed a Councel to be held at Sardica and willed the Bishops as wel of the East as the west to be their present After this Councel had likewise concluded for Paulus and Athanasius against their deposers Constans wrate to his brother the resolution of the Synode and exhorted him to restore them to their places which when Constantius delayed and differred the West Emperour offereth him this choyse either to restore them their Churches or if he woulde not to looke for hostilitie and warre Wherupon the East Emperour being driuen to this streit sent for Athanasius and his fellowes by three seuerall letters and not only restored them but abolished all things that might any way be preiudiciall to them By this you see Iulius had no power to cal a general Councel but Athanasius was fayne to begge it of the Prince with teares and the Bishoppe of Rome was not then taken for the last and supreme Iudge on earth But the Councel sate in Iudgement after him where matters were ended by number of voyces Phi. Yet we saide trueth that Athanasius called for ayde of Iulius Theo. I said as truely that you florish with generalities and ambiguities conclude nothing For what haue you gotten nowe more than we graunted at first or which way doth this example perteyne to that which is in question betwixt vs Phi. You make too light of our proofes Theo. Then put you more weight to them I take them as I find them and for ought that I see you can not mend them Phi. Well esteeme them as you lift they proue that the Bishop of Rome was euer a sure refuge for the Catholiques against heretikes which he neuer perfourmed more worthily than in our dayes Theo. I thinke in deede Rome was neuer fuller of deuises and practises than at this present Antichrist is so carefull for his kingdome lest it fall that hee spareth neither men nor money to be reuenged on those that shrinke from him but when all is done God will strike the stroke Phi. No doubt he will but neuer for you that bee so shamefully fallen from his Church Theo. You be more shamefully fallen from his word consequently from faith which is the foundation of the Church neither can he be ioyned to the Church which is seuered from the Gospel But we go from the matter your examples bee not yet all discussed Phi. Returne when you will Theo. Chrysostome and Augustine you say asked ayde of Innocentius Phi. They did so Theo. Ayde they might aske and he might yeeld and yet neither make for your purpose Phi. That were maruaile Theo. None at all Chrysostome whom you first name sought for helpe as Athanasius did but the displeasure which Arcadius the East Emperour had conceiued against him was so great that Innocentius coulde not preuaile Phi. It serueth our turnes that Chrysostome did seeke to the Bishop of Rome notwithstanding Arcadius by force did ouerbeare him Theo. Chrysostome sought nothing but that his cause might bee heard in a full Synode before indifferent Iudges Phi. It maketh much for Innocentius supremacie that Chrysostome sought this at his handes Theo. You must make your foundation surer before your building will stand You sawe by the last example of Athanasius that the Bishop of Rome and the west Church might reiect refuse the sentence of any Prouinciall Synode giuen against the Patriarke vnlesse their consents were first had And euen the very same doeth Chrysostome request of Innocentius that he would neither admit nor allowe the proceedings of his aduersaries against him as good nor communicate with him that was chosen by them to succeede in his place Phi. This still confirmeth that nothing was good if the Bishop of Rome did dissent Theo. And still that inferreth nothing but yâ— the Bishop of Rome and his Prouince were a part of the Church and by reason and equitie were to giue their voyces as wel as others before the rest might conclude any thing that did concerne or should bynde the whole Church And this is strange that where the Bishoppe of Rome for himselfe and his Prouince seeketh en equalitie with others as a part of the Church you frame him alone a superioritie ouer all others as the heade of the Church Your examples shewe this that others without him could not bind the whole Church because the conseÌ„t was not general your conclusion must be this that he without all others as Christes UicegereÌ„t in earth might dispose the whole Church at his pleasure See you no differeÌ„ce betwixt these two positions Phi. I confesse they differ but can you shew that others withstoode him as well as he withstood them Theo. Yea that I can Phi. Arians perhaps or Donatists Theo. Nay Catholike fathers Councels Phi. Shew that and you say somewhat to the matter Theo. That I will shew when your proofes are ended I thinke not good to mingle yours and ours together Phi. Ours I graunt are much after one sort and therefore I long to heare yours Theo. No hast but good anon you shall you would faine I see ridde your hands Phi. You shall well know the contrarie Say what you can Theo. I say nothing but that you gaine litle by Chrysostoms example Phi. Doe we not These be Chrysostomes wordes to Innocentius Wherefore least this confusion inuade euery nation vnder Heauen I beseech you write that these vniust proceedings both in our absence and when wee refused not iudgement may be of no force as in deed of themselues they are not and let them which haue doone this wrong feele the censure of the ecclesiasticall Lawes and suffer vs that were neither conuicted nor charged with any crime nor so much as conuented to enioy your letters of communion and charitie and likewise of all others whose fellowship wee had before Doeth he not in these wordes request Innocentius to pronounce the sentence voyd that was giuen against him to remoue the authors of this disorder from the communion Theo. To Dissent from it was enough to vndoe it because neither he nor his prouince were acquainted with it to excommunicate the doers was nothing els but to communicate no longer with them which euery Bishop and prouince might do when any wilful breach of the Canons was offered Phi. This petition was made to Innocentius alone and not to the residue of the West Bishops Theo. If Innocentius alone were spoken to the matter is not great Sure it is the Bishop of Rome neither did nor might deale in these cases without the consent of his brethren for feare least when the matter came to voyces as in the end it
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
then the rest to depart from them We know it behoued vs to be with you as assessors to your wisedoms and in common to consider how these things should be handled but these times do not permit that and the differing of it would be daungerous for that their poison taketh hold apace Phi. But Basill conferring with Athanasius howe to helpe the Church saith I haue thought it meete that the Bishop of Rome be written vnto to consider of our state and to giue vs his counsel and because it is a matter of more difficultie to sende some thence by the common decree of a Synode he himselfe vsing his owne authoritie in this matter may chose men both able to indure the iourney fit for the mildnesse easinesse of their dispositions to correct those that here with vs are wrested awry or started aside This proueth that the Bishop of Rome had authoritie sufficient of himselfe without a Synode to send Legattes to reforme things amisse in the East Churches which is cleane against your assertion Theo. You mistake the matter for lacke of due marking the circumstances When these troubles were first beginning before they came to that extremitie which after fell out Basill knowing that the credit and opinion of the West Church might stay many from falling and reduce others that were not too far gone because it would be long to tarie the assembling of a Synode and the enimie perceiuing their intent would hinder the fruit of their labours wisheth that the Bishop of Rome woulde vse his discretion in chosing some that were fit for this purpose and sende them very closely to see what good might be done by gentle and faire perswasions Phi. You qualifie the text with your owne additions Theo. You shall find them expressed in Basils owne wordes if you weigh them well First he woulde haue the Bishop of Rome written vnto to consider their state to giue thē counsell what to do Next because it is hard to haue some sent by the common decree of a Synode he vsing his owne authoritie in this so small a matter may choose men fit c. And that no man knowing of it without any stir let them come secretly by Sea to those that are here least the enemies of peace discrie their comming Lastly they fitting and applying their speach to content euery man with mildnesse and gentlenes may rectifie such of our side as tread awry So that these messengers should bee but mediators and procurers of peace betweene those that were of the same religion ioyned in communiō with the West Churches Whē they come which by Gods grace shal be sent let them not occasion any schismes in the churches but rather by all meanes draw those that be of one religion to vnity Care must be had that all things be borne with to win peace that the Church of Antioch in any case be prouided for least that which is yet syncere in her bee weakened rent in peeces through respect of persons meaning the schisme at Antioch where the Catholikes had diuided themselues and their Churches some cleauing to Miletius and some to Paulinus Phi. You could neuer speake it in a better time Upon this and other such occasions I remember S. Hierom consulteth Damasus the Bishop of Rome both what to beleeue and with whom to communicate Theo. Indeede S. Hieroms name is next and if he serue your turnes he doth more for you than al the rest of the Fathers besides but was Hierom in his old-age to seeke what to beleeue Phi. I say not so but that touching the faith and communion of the Church he submitted himselfe to the Bishoppe of Rome His wordes are worth the noting Because the East parts are togither by the eares by an inueterate madnesse of the people and Foxes there do roote vp the Vineyard of Christ therefore thought I best to consult Peters chaire and the faith which was praysed by the Apostles mouth thence desiring foode for my soule whence long ago I receiued the garments of Christ. I know not Vitalis I refuse Miletius I care not for Paulinus hee that gathereth not with you skattereth that is he that is not Christes is Antichristes And hauing opened his griefe and shewed what was demaunded at his handes by the East Bishops in the matter of the Trinitie he concludeth I beseech your blessednesse by him that was crucified euen the Sauiour of the world and by the Trinitie three persons of one and the same substance that by your letters you will appoint me whether I shall confesse there bee three Hypostases in one diuine nature or denie the same and also that you will signifie with which of those three at Antioch I ought to communicate And vrging the same matter the second time Miletius Vitalis and Paulinus say they be ioined in communion with you I could beleeue them if one and no mo said it but now either two or all three lie Therefore I beseech your blessednesse by the Crosse of the Lord by the necessarie ornament of our faith by the passion of Christ that by your letters you will signifie with whom I should communicate in Syria Despise not the soule for which Christ died Giue me leaue to be as long in repeating the wordes of S. Hierom as you were euen now in alleadging S. Basill Theo. With a good will you spend but a little the more time and we shall haue day enough Mary now you haue saide all marke first that most of these praises be not seuerall to the Citie of Rome but generall to the West Church The vnthriftie children of the East haue wasted saith he their patrimonie onely with you in the West is the inheritance of your Fathers kept vndiminished There the good ground yeeldeth an hundred fold increase that still resembleth the purenesse of the Lordes seede here the corne that was cast into the furrowes doth degenerate into tares and oates Nowe in the West the Sonne of righteousnesse shineth in the East Lucifer that fell hath set his throne aboue the starres You are the light of the world the salt of the earth the vessels of siluer and gold here are the wodden and earthen pots that staie for the yron rod and vnquenchable fire This comparison he maketh as you see not betweene all other places and Rome but between the East and West Churches preferring the one many degrees before the other Secondly the reason why Hierom himselfe depended so much on the Church of Rome was as he saith for that hee was baptized in the Citie of Rome and therefore as one of that Citie still desireth thence to bee fed in Christ where he was first cloathed with Christ. Thirdlie the pointes that hee doubted of and sought to be directed in were no matters of doctrine nor Principles of faith but a question of wordes and a dissention about the Bishopricke of Antioch for the which trifles
who can blame Hierom if he were loth to lose the communion of that Citie where hee was Christened And as Hierom here honoreth the Church of Rome for keeping her faith so elsewere he taketh vp roundly both the Citie and Clergie of Rome when occasion was offered And in this verie place by your leaue he protesteth that he followeth no man as chiefe much lesse as head of the Church but onely Christ. Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens beatitudini tuae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior I following none chiefe but Christ hold the fellowship of communion with your blessednesse that is with Peters chaire Neither doth hee pray the Bishop of Rome to appoint him what he shall beleeue touching the Trinitie as if Damasus word were the rule of his faith but where he confessed in the Trinitie three persons subsisting of one and the same substance with the Councell of Nice and the whole West Church and certaine Bishops of the East not therwith content vrged him precisely to graunt the worde tres hypostases and for sticking at it traduced him as an heretike his request to the Bishop of Rome is vt siue dicendarum siue tacendarum hypostaseon detar autoritas that he might be licenced to vse or refuse that word without being molested at their hands any farther When we aske them saith Hierom what they meane by tres hypostases they say three persons subsisting we aunswere that wee beleeue the same Non sufficit sensus ipsum nomen efflagitant quia vocabula non ediscimus haeretici iudicamur It is not enough to beleeue so they vrge the very word it selfe and because we can not frame our selues to these new wordes wee bee charged with heresie So that Hierom craued Damasus letters and authoritie for his quietnesse least hee should bee troubled in Syria where he lay among strangers for a word that he suspected to be skant sounde The other petition that he maketh is but to know which of those three at Antioch were ioyned in communion with the Church of Rome and the West Bishops that he might safely communicate with that side Graunt these two cases wherein Hierom prayeth helpe of Damasus and what are you the neerer Phi. Nay graunt the wordes that Hierom speaketh in his Epistle and see what then will follow Theo. What wordes Phi. Cathedrae Petri communione consocior super illam Petram edificatam Ecclesiam scio Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit prophanus est Si quis in Arca Noe non fuerit peribit regnante diluuio I hold the communion of Peters chaire that is of the Church of Rome vpon that rocke I know the Church to be built Whosoeuer shall eat the Paschall lambe out of that house is a prophane person If any man be not in Noahs Arke when the flood riseth he shal be drowned This is as much as we do affirme or could desire for the Church of Rome graunt this and the quarrell betwixt vs shall soone cease Theo. You be so hastie when you heare of Peters chayre that you neuer looke at Christ himselfe though hee stande in your way For Hierom in the same sentence protesteth that although he keepe the fellowship of communion with Peters chaire yet he followeth none chiefe but Christ. Vpon that rocke I am sure saith he the Church is built Why may not these words now be referred as well to Christ as to Peter Phi. For shame what an euasion this is Theo. Nay shame to your selues that are so wedded to your own conceits The words are more likely to belong to Christ than to Peter if you soberly view them Christs name going first and Peters second in the sentence by the very rules of Grammer super illam Petram vpon that rocke serueth more aptly for Christ than for Peter Againe the vehemencie of the verbe scio I am right sure doth argue the wordes to be more fitly referred to Christ than to Peter For that the Church is built on Christ no Christian euer doubted but that Peter is the Rocke on which the Church is built S. Austen and others do plainly denie Phi. But S. Hierom in the third Epistle before this saith expresly Petrus super quem Dominus fundauit Ecclesiam Peter on whome our Lorde built his Church Theo. The wordes of our Sauiour in the Gospell Vpon this rocke will I build my Church diuerse men haue diuersly taken S. Austen expoundeth them thus Tu es ergo inquit Petrus super hanc Petram quam confessus es super hanc Petram quam cognouisti dicens tu es filius Dei viui edificabo Ecclesiam meam id est super meipsum filium Dei vini edificabo Ecclesiam meam Super me edificabo te non me super te Thou art Peter saith Christ and vppon this rocke which thou hast confessed vppon this rocke which thou hast acknowledged by saying Thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church that is vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God will I build my Church I will builde thee vpon mee not my selfe on thee Hilarie likewise Vnum est immobile fundamentum vna haec est faelix fidei Petra Petriore confessa tu es filius Dei viui super hanc igitur confessionis Petram Ecclesiae edificatio est Haec fides Ecclesiae fundamentum est This only is the immoueable foundation this onely is the happie rocke of faith which was confessed by Peters mouth thou art the Sonne of the liuing God Then vpon this rocke of confession standeth the building of the Church This faith is the foundation of the Church So doth Ambrose Dominus dicit ad Petrum super istam Petram edificabo Ecclesiam meam hoc est in hac Catholicae fidei confessione Eides ergo est Ecclesiae fundamentum Non enim de carne Petri sed de fide dictum est qùia portae mortis ei nòn praeualebunt Sed confessio vicit infernum The Lord saith to Peter vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is in this confession of the Catholike Faith Faith therefore is the foundation of the church For it was not spoken of Peters flesh but of faith that hell gates should not preuaile against it But that confession conquered hell Vpon this rocke will I builde my Church that is saith Chrysostom vppon this faith and confession Bede Vppon this rocke saith Christ which thou hast confessed will I build my church That rocke was Christ vpon the which foundation euen Peter him selfe was to be builded These meane as S. Paul doth that the right and true foundatiō of the Church is Christ and none else An other foundation can no man lay than that which is already laid which is Iesus Christ. Others I knowe applie these wordes vppon this rocke will I builde my Church to Peter mary not as if hee alone were laide in the
foundation of the Church and the rest of the Apostles excluded but that which is here spoken to him they make common to all or as much elsewhere to be giuen to all Origen If onely vpon Peter thou thinkest the whole Church to be built what wilt thou say to Iohn and euery of the Apostles shall we dare say that against Peter onely the gates of hell shall not preuaile and against the rest of the Apostles they shall and not rather in them all and euerie one of them that to be true which is saide the gates of hell shall not preuaile and that also vpon this rocke will I build my Church For if this speech to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen be common to all why then should not all that which goeth before and followeth after as spoken to Peter be common to them all Hierom himselfe whose authoritie you pretend as he placeth Peter in the foundation of the Church so doth he the rest of the Apostles likewise Thou wilt say the Church is built on Peter notwithstanding the selfe same in another place is done vpon all the Apostles and they all receiue the keyes of the kingdom of heauen and the stedfastnesse of the Church is equally setled vpon them This sense doth somewhat agree with that place of S. Paul were he saith Ye bee built vpon the foundation not of Peter alone but of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ being the head corner stone And in that respect Paul saith of Iames Peter Iohn iointly they that seemed to be the pillours gaue me their right handes of fellowship Both these constructions we can admit though we prefer the first as most religious cunning nearest the true meaning of our Sauiour but you wrest the wordes of S. Hierom quite against him selfe all the rest of the learned Catholike fathers It is one thing to say the church is built on Peter which Origē Hierom others affirme in the sense that I told you before an other thing to say the Church is built on Peters chaire at Rome which no Father euer said or thought And therefore if we shoulde graunt that S. Hierom in these wordes spake of Peter what are you the better This is no proofe that Rome is the Rocke on which the Church is built but onely that Peter is a Rocke laide in the foundation of the Church where also the rest of the Prophetes and Apostles are Phi. The place doth mention the chaire of Peter which is Rome Theo. The wordes stande so that they may respect either Peter himselfe or his chayre but the likenesse of the names Petrus and Petra both for sound for sense the alluding to that which Christ spake to Peter in the Gospell long before hee knewe Rome the generall consent of the Fathers expounding the Rocke to be taken either for Christ or for Peter and neuer for Rome import that these words in S. Hierom haue their relation to Peters person and not to his chaire This exposition the place which you brought confirmeth Petrus super quem Dominus fundanit Ecclesiam Peter on whom that is on whose person not on whose successors at Rome the Lord built his Church Phi. The rest of S. Hieroms wordes can not be referred to Peters person as namely these that next insue Without this house whosoeuer shall eate the Paschall Lambe is prophane And why shoulde the former more than these Theo. Peruse the words as they lie and you shall finde your owne error Vpon that rocke I know the Church is built The Church not of Rome only but of Christ generally Then followeth extra hanc domùm without this house What house but the church which he said before was built on the rock And out of this house meaning thereby not the particular Church of Rome but the Catholike church of Christ whosoeuer eateth the Passouer is indeed as Hierom saith aprophane person This is farre wide from the mark which you shoote at Phi. S. Augustine I trust shooteth streight when he applieth the wordes of Christ in the 16. of Matthew to the chaire of Peter Theo. That were maruaile if he which by no meanes would allow Peter him selfe to be the foundation of the Church be now content to yeelde that honor to the Bishop of Rome Phi. He doth so These be his wordes Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede in ordine illo Patrum quis cui successit videte Ipsa est Petra quam non vincant superbae inferorum portae Number the Priestes euen from Peters seate and see who succeded one an other in that rew of Fathers that is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell do not conquere Theo. This place proueth nothing vnlesse you bee suffered to referre the words Ipsa est Petra that is the rocke whither you list You can not refer them but either to the succession of Priests from Peter or else to Peters seate which is all one with Peters chaire Theo. Why not to Peter himself Phi. That were farre fet Theo. The wordes stand indifferent for both as S. Hieroms did and not onely the same reasons I made there serue here but also the proposition hath a manifest reference to Peters person He saith not number the Priests in Peters seat but number them vel ab ipsa Petri sede euen from the very seat of Peter that is from the time that Peter sate He is the Rock against which the proud gates of hell do not preuaile Phi. You seeme to reade Ipse est Petra He is the Rocke but the wordes are Ipsa est Petra that is the Rocke Theo. There are greater corruptions crept into S. Austens works by the negligence of Scribes than of a for e Neither did I translate the words but giue you the right meaning of them and yet ipsa est Petra in S. Austen may be referred to Peter him selfe as wel as super hanc Petram in the Gospell expounded for Peter which you all vphold But graunt which is more than euer you shall iustly conuince that Peters chaire is thereby ment Saint Austen doth not say that is the rocke on which the Church is built but that is the Rocke which the gates of hell do not conquere not promising that Rome still should but witnessing that Rome then did withstand the gates of hell by keeping the faith vndefiled which Peter deliuered Phi. What S. Austen lacketh S. Cyprian supplyeth Qui Cathedram Petri super quam edificata est Ecclesia deserit in Ecclesia se esse confidit He that forsaketh the chayre of Peter on which the Church is built doth he hope himselfe to be in the Church I trust these wordes be plaine enough Theo. The wordes as you set them bee plaine enough but where saith Cyprian so Phi. In his booke De vnitate Ecclesiae Catholicae you call it corruptly De simplicitate Praelatorum Theo.
receaued to their fellowship they keeping still that honor and excellencie which they had in Christ before our comming Abraham is to this day the father of the faythful the Patriarkes Prophets are not depriued of their dignitie Peter no doubt as he was so he is the first Stone that Christ layed in the foundation of his Church which dignity you can not take from him after his death Phi. What then shall his successour haue Theo. The charge that he had to feede the same keyes that were giuen him and the rest to binde lose Which office if the Bishop of Rome will execute he may haue Phi. A fayre promotioÌ„ You meane he shal be a Bishop as others are Theo. God graunt he be so much More if he will haue by warrant from Peter you must proue it better than by such forged autorities manned exaÌ„ples as here you bring Those that are past your self see were to litle purpose Theodoretes example which is yet behind is like the rest Phi. He submitted him self to Leo the great was by him restored to his Bishoprike though he were not of his Prouince Theo. Leo toke his part against Dioscorus the Patriarke of Alexandria that like a tyrant in the second Councell of Ephesus not only was the death of Flauianus by spurning tredding on him but also coÌ„firmed the wicked opinion of Eutiches deposed Theodorete without any iust cause whoÌ„ the Bishop of Rome receaued to the coÌ„munion accepted for a lawfull and Catholike Bishop not regarding the sentence pronounced against him by Dioscorus Phi. Then Leo reuersed the lewd acts of Dioscorus in that Ephesine Councell Theo. Leo withstood theÌ„ as all other good men did throughout the world but the iudgement was reuersed by the great CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon not by the Bishop of Rome where Theodorete was forced with his own mouth in their presence to cleare him selfe from all suspition notwithstanding his restitution by Leo before he could be admitted to make his complaynt against Dioscorus Phi. Still you see the Bishop of Rome resisted other by dissenting from them ouerthrew their interprises Theo. And still you see the Bishop of Rome neuer ended these matters at home in his owne Câ—â—sistorie as supreme Iudge of the whole earth but euer made suite to Christiâ—n Princes that these thinges might be determined in full assemblies of Bisâ—ops by the iudgement opinion of the most part which is cleane contrarie tâ— that absolute power he now claymeth as Uicar generall to Christ the only Ruler of his vniuersall Church And therefore these examples which you haue brought many like which you might bring proue noâ— that power which you defend at this day to belong to the Bishop of Rome but rather euert the same For what needed his predecessors with all ouetie become suppliants to Catholike Emperours for the gathering of Bishops out of all quarters to decide matters in doubt and that sute often refused as when Innocentius messengers came backe from Arcadius with a shamefull repulse and Leo the great whom you last spake of besought Theodosius the yonger with sighes teares to graunt a Councell for the repealing of Dioscorus actes could not obtaine it what needed I say such earnest and humble request to those that neglected their prayers if Christ had appointed them as Peters successors and his deputies without depending on Princes pleasures or other mens voices to say but the word which should stand good in his Church against all persons in all causes both of doctrine discipline And what better conuiction of your falshood can there be than that in all these troubles tempests of the Church which you haue chosen out of many for your best aduantage the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as pretended or mentioned his Lieutenantship to Christ which you now defend but euer keeping his place which by reason of his Citie was the first among the Patriarkes ioyning him selfe to the West Bishops which were then a good part of Christendom by their helpe and the fauour of religious Princes gate those thinges that oppressed the Church and impugned the faith to be debated and determined by common coÌ„sent in generall and lawfull Councels without any reseruation or motion of his absolute power or negatiue voice Phi. Our examples you grant proue this that he resisted others now shewe you that others ouerruled him Theo. If I could not the matter were not great coÌ„sidering your examples conclude nothing against vs but least you should flatter your selues too much in your follies you shal see that others withstood him as well as he withstood others Phi. Were they Catholiks Theo. I trust you dare not account them heretikes Peter as you say the first Bishop of Rome was resisted by Paul the teacher of the Gentiles Anicetus by Policarpus Saint Iohns owne scholer Victor by Polycrates Ireneus and al the brethren of Asia Stephanus by Cyprian Damasus Syricius and Anastasius by Flauianus and all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum Innocentius by Cyrill Sozimus and Bonifacius by Augustine and two hundred and sixteene Bishoppes of Africa Caelestinus by Theodorete Leo by the great Councell of Chalcedon Gregorie by the Britanes and many other Bishops of Rome by diuerse godly Princes Prelates Countries and Councels Phi. I like not these generall florishes which serue onely to obscure the truth and beguile the simple Theo. Howe then can you like your Apologie which consisteth of nothing else And what a slender kinde of proofe was that idle rehearsall of names which you made euen now for your running to Rome But our particulars I am well content you shall skan The first Paul himselfe affirmeth When Peter came to Antioch I withstood him to his face for hee was to be blamed Phi. The quarell betwixt them was not great Theo. Not walking the right way to the truth of the Gospell and compelling the Gentiles to liue like the Iewes was no such petite fault as you make it but graunt it were The smaller the fault the stronger our instance If Paul for a light matter resisted Peter to his face what woulde hee haue done in a cause of more weight Phi. Was Peter then Bishop of Rome when Paul reproued him Theo. It forceth not whether hee were or no. Peter as you pretende had his prerogatiue not from Rome but from Christ long before hee sawe Rome and therefore was in as full authoritie when Paul resisted him as when Nero martyred him and yet if their account bee true that were the first authours of his preferment to Rome hee was rebuked at Paules handes euen when hee was Bishoppe of Rome For Peter as Eusebius or some other in his name recordeth went to Rome and was Bishoppe there in the 44. yeare of Christ that is eleuen yeares after his passion Christ being put to death in the 33. yeare of his age
of both lawes no man gainesaying but all consenting it was concluded that it might bee lawfully canonically done Marke Philander a generall Councell called without a Pope and two Popes deposed in the same for not appearing before the councell al this good lawful by the iudgement of your owne Cardinals diuines and Canonists without contradiction and the Pope himselfe accepting this for a sacred and ecumenicall Councell Phi. I maruaile they went so farre Theo. Neuer maruaile at that The general Councel of Constance which followed fiue yeres after this went a great deale farther For when Iohn the 23 had by his letters called the Councell and sate amongst them in person as president and head of the Councell the first thing they did they began to sift him and notwithstanding he fled and left the Councel without Uicegerent or deputie yet they proceeded and not onely suspended but also depriued him for his notorious Symonie and detestable and vnhonest life and maners And likewise when by no meanes they could get Gregorie the 13 to resigne or appeare before them they condemned him for a schismatike and an heretike incorrigible and cut him off as a withered member And least you shoulde thinke this rashly or lightly done they solemnly decreed that the Pope was subiect to them and bound to obey them could not without their liking dissolue or remoue the councell and to that end they did frustrate and reuerse all that was done or might be done by the Pope present or absent to the preiudice and disturbance of their Synode Can you wish for playner examples that a Councell may proceede without and against the Bishoppe of Rome than these be Phi. I confesse they make me stagger and yet I dare not trust them vnlesse the Church receiue them Theo. And doth your church nowe mislike the proceedings at Constance and Pisa which the church of Rome then and all other nations by the witnes of your nearest frinds approued and followed as right and syncere Phi. I refuse not the Councels Theo. But doth your Church allow them for general Phi. I think she doth Theo. Keepe your thoughts to your self my question is whether your Church accept them or no Phi. Shee doth not reiect them Theo. Answer directly Doth your Church embrace thē or no Phi. Shee doth Theo. You might haue sayd so rather what needed this circumquaque to no purpose Then I inferre the doctrine of your church litle more than eight skore yeres agoe was that a Councell might ouerrule and depose the Pope and the same Councel be called and kept without him if he colluded or refused This is proued as well by the deedes of the councels of Constance Pisa which are alreadie shewed as by their decrees which are extant to this day What was concluded at Pisa by generall assent I sayde before what the Councell of Constance resolued in the like case their words shall declare First this holy Synode of Constance lawfully congregated in the holy Ghost being a general councel and representing the catholike church militant hath power immediate from Christ the which power euery one of what state or dignity soeuer he be yea the Pope himself is bound to obey in those things that concerne the faith general reformatiō of the church of God in the head mēbers Again it declareth that whosoeuer of any cōdition state or dignitie yea though he be Pope shal stubburnly refuse to obey the statutes ordinances precepts which this sacred Synode or any other general coūcel lawfully gathered hath already made or shal hereafter make concerning the premisses or any their appertinents except hee repent hee shal be driuen to condigne satisfaction and dewly punished and if need be other helps and remedies of law and Iustice vsed Item this holy Synode ordereth defineth determineth and declareth that if our sayd Lord the Pope being required for vnities sake by this sacred Councel do refuse to forsake his Popedome or defer the renouncing thereof longer than he should as then so now and as now so then shal be counted by al Christian faithful men to be depriued of his Popedome and al obedience withdrawen from him And not herewith content after they had cited and expected him they proceeded first to his suspention and after to his depriuation in this wise Because it plainly appeareth to vs that our Lord Pope Iohn the 23. from the time that hee was chosen to the Popedome til this present hath il gouerned that office to the publike slaunder of himselfe the Church and with his damnable life filthie manners hath giuen and yet giueth to others an example of loose life and moreouer hath by playne Symonical contracts sold Cathedral churches Monasteries Priories and other Ecclesiastical benifices therefore by this our sentence we pronounce and decree the said Lord Pope Iohn worthie to bee suspended from al administration of the Popedome both spiritual and temporal and wee doe suspend him and by this writing forbid him the execution thereof And we declare that for and vpon the premisses as being notorious we ought mind to proceed to the final reiecting him from the Popedome Wherefore we streitly prohibite you and euery one of you by the tenor of these presents in vertue of your obedience vnder payne to be counted fauourers of this schisme whether you bee kings Cardinals Patriarkes Archbishops bishops or whatsoeuer spiritual or secular persons that you nor any of you directly or indirectly hereafter obey regard or assist the sayd Pope Iohn being iustly suspended by vs from al intermedling with the Popes function c. The very same causes they repeat when they depriue him adding that his departure from the Citie and sacred generall Councell of Constance closely by night at an vnseasonable houre in strange and dissembled apparel was vnlawful and scandalous to the Church the Councel as troubling and hindering the peace and vnion of the Church nourishing an inueterate schisme and swaruing from his vowe promise oth therfore say they the sacred general councel of Constance by this definitiue sentence here cōprised in writing pronounceth adiudgeth and declareth the saide Pope Iohn as vnworthie vnprofitable and hurtful to be remoued depriued and deposed from the Popedome and from al spiritual and temporal administration therof therwithal doth remoue depriue and depose him declaring al christians of what state or degree or condition soeuer they be to stand quiet and discharged from his obedience and the fidelitie and oth which they haue made to him Inhibiting al the faithful of Christ hereafter so much as to call him Pope being now deposed from his office or to cleaue to him or any way to obey him as Pope Phi. You repeate this at large that the simple might see how solemnely the Pope was deposed Theo. I doe in deede and you must thinke they looke for your answere Phi. How hastie you be when you haue a little
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
Upon whose cōplaint the good prince wrote this to the whole councel Your synod hath decreed I know not what in a tumult vprore whiles you seeke to peruert truth by your pestilent disorder for hatred against your fellow bishops but the diuine prouidēce wil I doubt not scatter the mischief of your contentiō make it plain in our sight whether your cōuent had any regard of truth or no. You must therefore al of you resort hither to shew the reason of your doings for so doth it seem good expedient to me to which end I willed this rescript to be sent you that as many of you as were present at the councel of Tyrus without delay repair to the place of our abode there to giue accompt how sincerely soundly you haue iudged and that before me whom your selues shal not deny to be the sincere minister of God in these cases The prince summoned the coūcel prescribed thē what they should hādle gaue charge to the parties accused to come before thē sharply rebuked the bishops assembled in this synod cōmāded thē to come corā nobis rēder a reason of their tumultuous iudgemēt assured thē that he would in his own person examin their doings whether they were good substātial or no. This power he chalēged ouer churchmē church-matters not as a violēt vsurper but as gods minister ordained to y◠intēt which the catholik bishops that took part with Athan. cōfessed to be true by their appeal the rest y◠deposed him neither did nor durst deny So the Const. was both an orderly refuge for Athan. a lawful cōtroler of the coūcel of Tyrus notwtstāding the crimes obiected there to Macarius Atha were spiritual to wit the striking of a priest ouerthrowing the Lordes table dashing in peeces the mystical cup burning the sacred books vsing a dead mās hand to sorcery with many such hainous offences leudly deuised by their accusers not any way proued against them yet taken by their aduersaries then iudges for iust matter to condemne them In restoring Arius the mildnesse of Constantine was somewhat abused by the crafty dissembling of heretikes yet thereby may well appeare what authority this Prince claimed to command Bishops release the rigor of their ecclesiastical cēsures Thus stood the case The Princes was often tolde that Arius held no such opinion as the world misdouted in him If Arius saith he consent to the Nicene coūcel I wil admit him to my sight send him home with honor Arius his adherents accepting the cōdition were willed to put their faith in writing with their wily submission so pleased Cōstantine very glad to see them yeeld to the Nicene creed that he sent thē with his letters towards Alexandria to be receiued At their cōming Athanasius the Bishop of those parts refused to cōmunicate with them aduertising his Maiesty by writing the heretiks once deposed might not be restored to their former estate Constantine tooke this exception in such il part that he fel to cōmanding Athanasius in short sharp terms Knowing our pleasure WE CHARGE YOV that you suffer freely those that will to returne to the church For if I learn that you forbid or exclude such as would gladly be partakers of the church I WILL PRESENTLY SEND ONE THAT SHALL BY COMMISSION from me DEPOSE YOV This saith Socrates he wrote minding to profit the church end al dissētion but it fel out otherwise for the citizēs of Alexādria were so troubled with the boldnes of Arius lack of Athanasius then banished that Cōstantine doubting the peruerse mind of Arius sent for him asked him whether he wold subscribe to the Nicene faith which he did there in presence very readily but slily The Prince musing at it exacted an oth that he took likewise Then the christian Emperor finding no cause to suspect him farther COMMANDED ALEXANDER BISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE TO RECEIVE HIM the next day TO THE COMMVNION which God preuēted with a suddain shameful death in detestation both of his heresie so long defended periury then freshly cōmitted Now chose whether you wil affirm that Cōstantine was ouer presumptuous imperious in the church of Christ against al reason good order or else agnise that Princes had then authority to require the subscriptions othes of such as they suspected in religion to restore those that were deposed to their ancient places vpon their submission and command the chiefe Bishops for so were both these the first of Alexandria the second of Constantinople to receiue such as had purged themselues in the Princes iudgement and presence to the communion Phi. Uengeāce frō heauen decided the case with Athanasius against Arius Th. No doubt Arius was worthly plagued for his false swearing wicked meaning to trouble the church of God worse with his secret dissembling than he did before with his open rebelling but what is this to Constantine whose zeale to preserue truth was neuer doubted whose care to procure concord in the church can not be blamed whose diligence to sift Arius with an oth could not be bettered We propose not the lewed fact of Arius blaspheming God iugling with man we detest that mōster as much as you but we lay forth the steps of Cōstātine seeking hoping his reformatiō to the end cōmanding the very Patriarks themselues threatning due punishement if his princely will were not obeyed Iustinian in his Code repeateth the lawes of former Emperours not onely touching the Christian faith baptisme Churches and bishops but also touching heretiks Apostataes Iewes and Infidels In his Authentikes he maketh many new cōstitutions in which he disposeth OF SACRAMENTS in what places by what persons with what lowdnes of voice they shal be ministred OF SYNODS when they shall be kept what things shal be reformed in them according to the sacred Canons and his Princely lawes also what Canons of Councels shall stand in the same strength with his Lawes OF CHVRCHES AND ABBAIES guiding the maner of their erection the number of their Clerkes their expences suites and priuileges OF MONKS who shal elect their Abbate what time shall suffice for their triall what rules they shall keepe for praier diet rest and such like dueties of life to whom the correction and ouersight of them shall belong OF PRIESTS DEACONS AND OTHER SERVITORS in the Church limiting their age condition learning and good report before they shall be receiued to this charge their diligēt sober and chast behauiour afterward OF BISHOPS howe they shall bee chosen in what sort their soundnes in faith skill in common prayer and clearnes from all iust accusations prohibited by the sacred rules or lawes imperiall shal be throughly sifted before they may bee confirmed what causes they shall medle with in their Consistories what superior iudges they themselues shall haue from whom they shal not appeale what punishment they shall
his discretion Which yet concerne the regiment of the Church no lesse than these doe You must beare with the length of them they be matters profitable to be knowen I speake for the most part of them greatly pertinent to this question You shall thereby resolue your selfe howe farre Princes then lawfully might and carefully did medle with guiding and ruling the Church of God and see both a worthie memoriall and a right president of a Princes visitation and reformation of all states aswell in matters of fayth as good order and discipline These be the Lawes The Priests euery man in his calling shall preach and teach the people committed to their charge The Bishops shall not suffer any man vnder them to propose to the people newe fangled opinions or not Canonical of their owne deuising not agreeable to the scriptures but shall themselues preach fruitfull good doctrine tending to life euerlasting and instruct others to do the like And first they shall teach all men generally to beeleeue the father the sonne and the holy Ghost to bee one omnipotent eternal and inuisible God creator of heauen and earth and all things in them and that there is but one Godhead substance maiestie in these three persons the father the sonne and the holy ghost ITEM they shall preach that the sonne of God through the working of the holy spirit tooke flesh of Marie shee remaining still a virgine for the saluation and redemption of mankind his death buriall rising the third day from the dead his ascending into heauen and how he shall come againe in diuine glorie to iudge all men according to their deserts the wicked for their vnrighteousnes to bee cast into perpetuall flames of fire with the Diuell the iust to bee taken to Christ and his elect angels into blessed life for euer ITEM they shall diligently set forth the resurrection of the dead that men may knowe and beleeue they shal haue their reward good or euill in the same bodies which they now beare about them ITEM they shall admonish all men with all industrie for what offences they shal be condemned to paynes euerlasting Paul telling vs that the workes of the flesh are manifest which are fornication vncleannes wantonnes hatred debate emulation wrath strife sedition heresie sects spite murder drunkennes gluttonie and such other of which I warne you now as I did before that they which commit these things shal not inherit the kingdome of God these things therefore which the great Preacher of the Church of God reckoneth by name let them be with all care prohibited remembring how terrible that saieng is They which doe these things shall neuer come to the kingdome of God BESIDES you shall earnestly teach them the loue of God and their neighbour faith and hope in God humilitie and patience charitie and continencie liberalitie and mercie to giue almes to acknowledge their sinnes and forgiue such as trespasse against them according to the Lordes prayer assuring them that they which followe these thinges shall enter the kingdome of God THIS WEE CHARGE AND ENIOINE YOV THE MORE PRECISELY BECAVSE WEE KNOWE THAT FALSE TEACHERS SHALL COME IN THE LATER DAYES as the Lord in the Gospel foretold and his Apostle Paul to Timothie witnesseth ITEM the Bishoppes shall diligently discusse in euery parish the fayth of the Priestes their manner of baptizing and saying masse that their faith may be sound their baptisme Catholike and themselues well conceiue the prayers of their masse and sing the psalmes by the distinction of verses They must wel vnderstand the Lordes prayer themselues and teach that all others must vnderstand the same to this end that euery man may know what he asketh at gods hand This verse Glorie be to the father the sonne c. shal be song of all with great deuotion the Priestes together with the people shal sing with one voyce holy holy holy Lorde God of hostes and all the faithfull shall communicate and prouide at the time of masse so to do without any other calling or warning No Priest shall admitte an other mans parishioner to the masse except he be a wayfaring man or one that is tyed there with some matter in law ITEM that false and suspected legends or such as bee repugnant to the Catholike faith as that vile and erroneous epistle which some deceaued themselues and deceiuing others pretended a yeare past to fal from heauen bee neither beleeued nor reade but burnt lest the people be seduced by such Pamphlets only the canonical bookes Catholike treaties and sentences of holy writers be read and taught ITEM the Priests shall haue alwaies in readinesse the sacred Eucharist that when any falleth sick or an infant be in danger of death he may minister the communion to him least he die without a communion ITEM we decree that as God hath commaunded no seruile worke to be taken in hand on the Lords day as also the Prince my father of blessed memorie gaue charge by his Synodal Edict to wit no kind of husbandrie neither cutting of vines nor tilling the ground neither reaping nor mowing nor hedging neither rooting or felling of trees nor digging in rocks nor building nor gardening no not keeping of courts or hunting the women likewise to forbeare all kind of manuall works but that all people resort to the Church and praise God for all his blessings On the Sunday shal no market nor faire be kept in any place ITEM the holy dayes that shal be kept throughout the yere are these the birth of Christ S. Steeuens S. Iohns the Innocēts day the octaues of our Lord the Epiphanie octaues thereof the purification of the virgine Marie eight daies of Easter the time of the solemne procession or greater Letanie the Assension of the Lord Whitsontide S. Iohn Baptist S. Peter and Paul S. Martine S. Andrew The assumption of our Ladie I leaue in doubt ITEM the Moncks shall perfectly learne the manner of the Romane tunes like as our father king Pipine decreed they should when he did abrogate the french kinde of singing ITEM that Bishops be chosen by the consent of the clergie and people out of the same dioces according to the Canons without respect of persons or rewards and that they traine vp their Priests in sobrietie and chastitie and see them haue the bookes of their masses and lessons well corrected and that they repaire their Churches decaied to their abilitie instruct the Church widoes how they should be conuersant after the Apostolike precept roote out the superstitions that are in many places about the exequies of the dead and wholly bend themselues to do their duties in al things concerning the Church of God and this that they may the more freely doe wee will bee ready to assist them by all meanes possible ITEM that in one Citie bee not two Bishops nor one prouince diuided
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
whiles he could not so much as looke into the contention betwixt the Christians and the Arrians did the Church no good For though Valentinian were for his owne person well perswaded in religion yet he suffered the Arrians to do what they would as Sozome confesseth Valentinian being himselfe of the Nicene faith made much of those that were of the same opinion with him but molested not any that were of the contrarie And that note Socrates giueth him Valentinian honoured those that were of his faith but in the meane time he let the Arrians do what they would And though himself very religiously embraced the Godhead of Christ yet would he commaund nothing to the Bishops in that behalfe neither thought hee good to change other ecclesiastical lawes into better or worse For he took them to be aboue his reache though he were otherwise a very good Emperour and fitte to rule as appeared by his doings Phi. Mislike you this in Valentinian Theo. Doe you like that he suffered Arrians to haue their foorth neither molested nor resisted them Phi. We like not that Theo. Then you mislike the timerousnes or remissenes call it what you will in the church affaires as well as we doe for what commendation could it be for him neither to meddle nor make with ecclesiasticall matters but to permit all sortes and sects to follow their appetites Phi. The stories commend him as excelling in wisedome moderation and iustice Theo. The best men haue their faults and are somtimes led with priuate fansies Valentinian was a good man and worthie the Empire and yet he made a Law that euery man that would might haue two wiues and himselfe gaue the first example in taking two Phi. What he did not Theo. Meaning to Marrie Iustina for report of her bewtie he made a law and published the same in euerie citie that it should be lawful for al men to haue two wiues at once And after the law so made he tooke Iustina to wife by whom hee had Valentinian the yonger and three daughters not diuorcing Seuera the mother of Gratiaen his elder sonne whom hee a little before had created Emperour Phi. That was a fault in deede Theo. And this was an other that hee gaue himselfe to quietnes and molested no sect of heretikes vpon this opinion that it passed his capasitie to iudge betweene the Bishops in matters of faith Phi. But Ambrose doth commend it Theo. Ambrose doth alleage it to stay the yong prince froÌ„ rashly presuming to iudge of their matters before he knew the first principles of religion because his father when he was aged Inhabilem se ponderi tanti putabat esse iudicij thought himself vnable to iudge in so weightie a cause but farther he doth not commend it and yet he might commend that in Valentinian and not hurt vs. For wee doe not encourage Princes to professe themselues iudges of fayth which Valentinian thought too great a burden but onely wee wish them to discerne betwixt trueth and error which euery priuate man must do that will be a Christian. And though Valentinian distrusted his owne iudgement in matters of faith yet that did not fray Theodosius a Prince highly commended by Ambrose him self from looking into the strife betweene the Homousians and Arrians and appointing by a solemne edict which of them should be counted Catholikes which heretikes and taking their Churches from them without their consents For hee not long after hee was called to the Empire by Valentinians eldest sonne willed euery sect to put their fayth in writing At the day prefixed the Bishoppes of euery religion being sent for came to the Court Nectarius and Agelius for the Homousians or Catholikes Demophilus â—or the Arrians Eunomius himselfe for his followers and for the Macedonians Eleusius When they were come the Prince admitted them to his presence and taking the Paper of eche mans opinion hartily besought God to helpe him in choosing the trueth Then reading their confessions written hee reiected al the rest as diuiding and seuering the sacred Trinitie and tare them in peeces and onely liked and embraced the Homousian fayth and therewithall made a Lawe that such as followed that fayth should bee counted Christian Catholikes the rest infamous heretikes All people subiect to our Empire wee will haue continue in that religion which S. Peter the Apostle deliuered to the Romanes as the fayth kept from his tyme to this day doth declare and the which it is euident Bishop Damasus and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolike sanctitie doe professe to witte that according to the Apostolike and Euangelike Doctrine wee beleeue one Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost of like Maiestie in sacred Trinitie The obseruers of this Lawe wee commaund to bee taken for Christian Catholikes the rest as mad and frantike we adiudge to beare the reproch of heretikes which must looke to feele first the vengeance of God next such penalties as the motion of our heart directed from aboue shall appoint As this religious Prince published by his Lawes which opinion should be counted trueth and which heresie so did hee by the same authoritie commaund the Churches throughout his Empire to bee presently taken from the Arrians and deliuered into the handes and possession of such as were of a right fayth So sayth Sozomene The Emperour Theodosius made a Law that the Nicene fayth shoulde bee authentike and all Churches to bee deliuered to them which professed the same Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost in three persons of equall honour and like power The Lawe it selfe is extant The rule of the Nicene faith receiued from our fathers and confirmed by the witnes and assertion of diuine religion let it stand good for euer And he shall bee counted a follower of the Nicene fayth and a true professor of the Catholike religion that holdeth the vndiuided substance of the incorrupt Trinitie which by a Greeke worde is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of right beleeuers They which bee not of this faith let them cease by cunning deuises to shroud theÌ„ selues vnder the name of true religion which they professe not be plainely noted by their heresies and vtterly remoued and expelled from all Churches that throughout the worlde the Churches may bee deliuered to the Bishops which hold the Nicene fayth So Gratian the sonne of Valentinian after the Empire came entirely to his hands commanded the preachers of the Arrian blasphemie as wild and cruel beasts to be driuen from their Churches and the same to be restored to good Pastors the executioÌ„ of this law he coÌ„mitted to Sapores a most famous captaine of that time The like did Theodosius the yonger decree that they which followed the wicked faith of Nestorius or cleaued to his vnlawfull doctrin if they were Bishops or Clerks should be cast out of their churches if they were Laymen they should bee accursed By this it is
els you make a madde construction But if you meane that Princes should not rule Bishops in ecclesiastical causes iudgements that is not worke them nor force them against the witnes of their heartes and consciences to follow the willes and appetites of Princes as Constantius did by the report of Athanasius in this place then the wordes which you bring be very true but nothing pertinent to this question The ruling then of Bishoppes and sitting as president of ecclesiasticall iudgements which Constantius vsed and Athanasius reproued was nothing elss but a wilfull contempt in himselfe of the faith and Canons of the Church and a furious compulsion of others to make them determine what hee listed and condemne whom him pleased without respect of trueth and against all order of common iustice Phi. This is your gloze which wee doe not beleeue Theo. Your owne witnesses say the same whom you may not well discredite Phi. Which of them Theo. Athanasius and Hilarie Phi. Where say they so Theo. Not farre from the places which your selfe alleage The whole Epistle of Athanasius which you quote is a large repetition of yâ— tirannous words and deedes of Constantius touching causes ecclesiasticall The first booke of Hilarie against Constantius the first I meane as they nowe stande in order though the last in time as they were written doeth handle the same argument Reade either of them you can not choose amisse Let passe the horrible persecution raysed by Constantius wherein the Pagans were set to inuade the Churches of Christians and to beate the people with staues and stones the Bishops Priests and Monkes were bound with chaynes and scourged with roddes the women were haled by the hayre to the iudgement seate the virgins were tosted by the fire and whipped with Prickles others were banished strangled trampled to death vnder feete and their limmes and ioyntes euen torne and rent asunder after they were dead in so much that Athanasius is fayne to crie out who was not amazed at these things who would giue them the name of Ethnicks much lesse of christians who will thinke them to haue the conditions of men and not rather of beastes who perceiued not the Arrians to bee crueller than beasts The straungers standing by yea the Ethnicks detested the Arians as Antichristes and butchers of men O new found heresie which in villanies and impieties hast put on the fulnes of the Diuell howe great so euer hee bee let passe I say these thinges and come to his behauiour in matters and causes ecclesiasticall Paulinus Lucifer and other Bishoppes being called before him the Emperour commaunded them to subscribe against Athanasius and to communicate with the Arrians they marueiling at this strange endeuor answering that the ecclesiastical Canons would not suffer them so to doe hee straightway replied AT QVOD EGO VOLO PRO CANONE SIT ita me loquentem Syriae episcopi sustinent aut ergo obteÌ„perate aut vos quoque exules esrote LET MY WIL BE TAKEN OF YOV FOR A CANON the Bishoppes of Syria content themselues with this speach of mine Therefore doe as I will you or depart into banishment And when the Bishoppes held vp their hands to God and with great libertie proposed their reasons shewing him that the kingdome was not his but Gods of whom he receiued it and that it was to bee feared lest hee that gaue it would speedyly take it from him also setting before him the day of iudgement and aduising him not to subuert ecclesiasticall order nor to mingle the Romane Empire with the constitutions of the Church nor to bring the Arrian heresie into the Church of God he woulde neither heare them nor permit them to speake but greeuously bending his browes for that they had spoken and shaking his sword willed them to be caried away This was Constantius manner in conuenting Bishoppes and thus hee peruerted the fayth and good order of Christes Church vppon a selfe wil subiecting all Lawes both diuine and humane to his eger and erroneous fansie And who seeing him thus to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes president of ecclesiasticall iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that desolation of abomination foretold by Daniel Phi. You put thus to the text which Athanasius hath not Theo. But the right meaning of Athanasius woordes must bee gathered hy that which goeth before and followeth after Intelligentia dictorum sayth Hilarie ex praecedentibus consequentibus expectetur The vnderstanding of any speach must bee taken from the precedents and consequents The conclusion is not proued but by the premisses and therefore must bee measured by the premisses Athanasius bringeth many particulars to shewe in what sort Constantius ouer-ruled the Bishoppes and preferred his owne will before all constitutions and Canons of the Church and then inferreth Who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishoppes and president of ecclesiasticall iudgements in that â—ort as hee doeth would not pronounce him to be Antichrist Now in what sort he did it the whole Epistle besides doeth declare thither must you repaire if you will see howe Constantius behaued himselfe in ecclesiasticall causes and consequently what thinges Athanasius and the rest misliked in him Phi. Howe did Constantius behaue himselfe say you Theo. That is worth the searching By that you shal see what cause Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius had to reproue him Phi. Say no more than you iustly proue Theo. No more shall bee sayde than your owne witnesses report I hope you will take them for direct and true deponents Phi. I doe not mistrust them Theo. Then heare them There were fiue principall points wherein Constantius dealt very intemperately wickedly as the writings of Athanasius and Hilarie doe testifie The often altering of the fayth the wresting from Synodes what hee would the banishing of Bishoppes vpon false accusations the intruding of others in their places against all order and the forcing of all sorts to communicate with the Arrians Of his altering the fayth Hilarie thus complayneth Fayth is come nowe to depend rather on the tyme than on the Gospel Our state is dangerous miserable that we haue nowe as many fayths as wils and as many doctrines as manners whiles faiths are either so written as we list or so vnderstood as we will We make euery yere and euery moneth a faith and still wee seeke a fayth as if there were no faith This O Constantius would I fayne knowe of thee what fayth at length thou beleeuest Thou hast changed so often that now I knowe not thy fayth That is hapned vnto thee which is wont to follow vnskilfull buylders euer disliking their own doings that thou stil pullest downe that which thou art stil setting vp Thou subuertest the olde with newe and the newe thou rentest in sunder with a newer correction and that which was once corrected thou condemnest with a second correction O thou wicked one what a mockerie doest
displacing the truth and maintaining falsehood vpon the Priestes warrant Phi. Let Princes ioyne themselues to the Church they can not mistake Theo. Shal they trust euery sect that claimeth to be the church or must they learn to know the true church of Christ from the counterfait Phi. The Church is soone knowen Theo. Not so soone as you thinke But we slip from our matter How Princes must be directed to light on truth is an other and the next question we be now discussing their authoritie to commaund for truth not their abilitie to discerne the truth and as far as I coniecture by your speaches you be loth to graunt that Princes may defende or assist the truth were it neuer so well knowen to bee the vndoubted truth of Christes church Phi. Yes we graunt they should defend the faith assist the church but we would haue them not go beyonde their calling Theo. No more woulde wee but the wordes of Osius as you presse them infer that Princes may not so much as meddle with defending the faith or assisting the church of Christ by their Princely power which euerteth as well your opinioÌ„ as ours If you will haue these wordes Meddle not in causes Ecclesiasticall to be taken as they lie without restriction ergo Princes must not meddle neither in word nor deede with the defending nor impugning the faith or church of Christ. And this you see were no sober perswasion but a franticke conclusion wrested out of Osius wordes against his meaning against all truth and your owne confession Who in his right wittes will saie to kings take you no care who defendeth or impugneth the church of Christ in your realmes let it not pertaine to you who list to bee religious or sacriligious in your kingdoms The actes of Constantine the Lawes of Iustinian the chapters of Charles the stories of the church the Scriptures themselues do clearly conuince that the best and most famous Princes haue medled in Ecclesiasticall matters the office and oth of a Prince as anon you shall heare require the same your own assertion is that Princes ought to defend the faith and assist the church and that they can not doe without medling in Ecclesiasticall matters Now choose whether you will thwart the whole church of God and disproue your own doctrine or else limit the wordes of Osius as we do by the particulars that moued him to reproue Constantius for his immoderate presumption The generall is absurd and refuteth your intention as well as ours for you would haue Princes medle with the publishing assisting and executing of your pleasures and iudgementes and wee would haue them yeelde that seruice to Christ and his truth which you chalenge to your selues the limitation let it be what it will agreeable to the circumstances can not hurt vs. Medle not in causes Ecclesiasticall in such sort as thou doest which rebuketh his tyrannie medle not neither appoint vs what wee shall doe that is medle not with appointing and directing vs in these thinges but learne them rather of vs which represseth his insolencie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis thrust not thy selfe into those thinges which belong to the Priestes and not to the Princes charge which is Osius owne distinction or else ne te misceas interpose not thy self that is thy resolute will and power to commaund compell vs to subscribe against Athanasius an innocent and to communicate with Arians condemned heretikes which were the two points that Constantius exacted of Osius All these constructions import that Constantius medled in that sort and with those thinges that he should not but they doe not exclude Princes from establishing the truth punishing sacrileges schisms and heresies which is medling with matters ecclesiasticall Phi. Leontius is as earnest against him as Osius I maruell saith hee to Constantius thy vocation being for other thinges thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely and yet thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I maruell that professing to seeke a truth you be not ashamed to temper and alter your witnesses in this sort You cut off the first part that would expound the whole and the latter you wilfully corrupt to force it to your purpose The place of Suidas is this Constantius at a time sitting chiefe among the Bishops and going about to set them orders for their churches the most part receiued with applause and admiration whatsoeuer he saide affirming it to bee most excellently spoken Leontius helde his peace whom when the Emperour asked why doest thou onely of all the rest keepe silence I maruel saith Leontius that hauing charge for other thinges thou entrest into these matters and that being appointed ouer the campe and common-wealth thou prescribeth to the Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops In steede of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you say Thy charge is of ciuill and martiall affaires onely that word onely is your owne and not your Authors and so be the rest that follow Thou wilt needes be president of Ecclesiastical causes Leontius saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thou prescribest vnto Bishops those thinges which belong onely to Bishops This is no good dealing with Fathers to forge them and frame them to your fansies Leontius had some reason to say as he did Constantius was sitting chiefe among the Bishops prescribing them rules and orders for their churches in thinges that were both beyond his cunning and besides his calling What things those were the story doth not expresse but saith such things as belonged onely to Bishops Now why should not Leontius thinke that Princes in some thinges had no skill to direct Bishops neither might prescribe what rules and orders they listed for the churches of God And yet your author is not ancient that reporteth this Suidas liued twelue hundred yeares after Christ a man learned but of very late time and far from the credit of antiquitie Leontius himselfe if all be true that Suidas writeth of him had no more discretion than needed For when the Empresse sent to speake with him he returned this answere If thou wilt haue me come to thee let mee haue the reuerence due to Bishoppes that when I come in thou by and by descend from thy throne and reuerently meete me and submit thy head vnder my handes to receiue my blessing and then will I sit and thou shalt stand manerly by and not offer to sit till I bid thee If these couenantes please thee I wil come A high point of diuinitie that a subiect will not come to his Prince but on these saueâ—ie conditions Such fables you seeke to further your cause and yet all wil not helpe Phi. I trust you wil make more account of Hilarie whose words are these We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge be giuen to al iudges of prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurp the hearing of
Then I graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion Theo. You graunt it as an euident trueth confirmed by the Scriptures confessed by the fathers reported by the Stories of the Church and infinitly repeated in the lawes and edicts of religious and auncient Emperours made for persons and causes ecclesiasticall Or if you doubt any part of this diuision haue recourse to the textes places before produced and if euery part be not fully proued refuse the whole Phi. I see they did and therefore I resolue my selfe they might commaund in those cases Theo. As well Bishops as others Phi. God forbid Princes should commaund Bishops in matters of religion Haue you forgotten what Osius saide to Constantius Do not commaund vs in this kinde Theo. Osius and others were commaunded by Constantius to condemn Athanasius against all order of equitie and their certaine knowledge of his innocencie For Osius was present and president in the Councell of Sardica where the cause of Athanasius was fully debated by the consent of both Emperours East and West and his accusers proued to bee wicked slaunderers and in that case he might iustly say to Constantius Commaund vs not in this kind or in these things but learne the trueth of them rather at our hands that were by when these matters were narowly sifted and Athanasius clearly discharged from all that could be saide against him And what if Osius had not limited his wordes to these particular respects as in sight he doth shall one poore place thinke you beare downe al the proofes examples and authorities that I haue shewed you to the contrarie where religious and auncient Emperours appointed prescribed commanded Bishops yea the chiefest Bishops in matters of doctrine and discipline Constantine prescribed the bishops what was profitable for the Church and commaunded the Councel of Tyrus to discusse the crimes obiected to Athanasius and threatned to banish him if hee failed to present himselfe before the Synode to teach him what it was to withstand the precept of the chiefe ruler defending the trueth And vpon complaint made by Athanasius against them hee sent for the whole Councell with this commaundement You must all of you resort hither to shewe the reason of your doings and to giue accompt howe sincerely and soundly you haue iudged and that before mee whom you shall not denie to bee Gods syncere minister and when Arius should be restored this was the stile that he vsed to Athanasius knowing our pleasure We charge you to suffer such as will to returne to the Church and after commaunded Alexander Bishoppe of Constantinople to receiue Arius to the communion Valentinian the elder rehearsing the Nicene fayth in his Edict added Our power hath commaunded the same to bee preached And when the people of Millan cried to haue Ambrose for their Bishop though hee were not yet baptized the same prince commanded he should be presently baptized and consecrated notwithstanding the Canons were strong against it S. Paul seemeth not willing that a nouice should be a Bishoppe Gratian commanded the Arrian Bishoppes to bee thrust from their Churches and by vigor of his Princely Lawes depriued the Bishoppe that rebaptized of his Priestly function Theodosius the elder commanded the followers of his Edict Bishops and others to be counted Christian Catholikes and for the rest that beleeued otherwise he sayd Propelli iubemus wee commaunded them to bee driuen from their Churches and when Demophilus a Bishoppe refused to embrace the Nicene fayth the Emperour in his owne person replied then I commaunde thee to forgoe thy Churches It well be seemed a religious Prince sayth Gregorie to commaunde Bishoppes in such things And Charles appointing the Bishoppes what doctrine they should teach sayth This we charge and enioyne you the more precisely because we know that false teachers shall come in the later dayes And for the reformation of certaine abuses in the Church hee keepeth this tenor of speach Know ye sacred fathers this must be forbidden in your Diocesses The rest of the Lawes Edicts and precepts of Godly Princes for causes ecclesiastical which I before alleaged in no small number doe they not either comprehend al men and by consequent Bishoppes or else directly and expressely commaunded Bishoppes by name If those bee not sufficient you may shall haue more Theodosius the younger sent his letters to the Patriarke of Alexandria for the seconde Councel of Ephesus with these wordes Wee decree that the most holy Bishoppes meeting together this vayne doubt may bee discussed and the true Catholike fayth confirmed Therefore Your holines bringing with you tenne of the most reuerend Metropolitanes that bee within your prouince and tenne other holy Bishoppes well accompted of for their learning and conuersation shall hasten with all speede to meete the rest at Ephesus by the first of August next no Bishoppe besides the foresaide troubling the sacred Synode If any Bishoppe faile to come to the place prefixed at the time appointed hee shall haue no excuse neither with GOD nor with vs. As for Bishoppe Theodorete whom wee commaund to attend at home on his owne Church wee determine that hee shall bee none of your assemblie vnlesse the whole councell thinke good to haue him one But if any dissent We commaund that the Synode sit without him and dispatch those thinges which we haue appointed them And in his second letters to the same Bishoppe Because wee suspect that some of Nestorius fauourers will doe their best to be present at this Councell therefore wee thinke needefull to aduertise you and the whole Synode that not onely in respect of Theodorete but of all others which haue ought to do in your Councell we giue you the preeminence and chiefe authoritie And those that adde or diminish any thing to or from the Nicene fathers the fathers since that assembled at Ephesus Wee suffer them not to presume any thing in this sacred Synode but wil haue them subiected to your iudgement because wee haue appointed this Synode for that purpose In the very same councell hee likewise commaunded that those Bishoppes which not long before sate in iudgement vppon Eutiches should be present but silent and giue no voyces with the rest as iudges but expect the cōmon determination of all the rest of the sacred fathers And also commaunded that they should neither say neither do any thing in the sacred Councel vntill the right fayth were concluded Martian charged the 630. Bishops in the great Councell of Chalcedon that None of them should dare dispute of the natiuitie of our Lord and Sauiour Christ otherwise than the 318. fathers of Nice deliuered Eusebius Bishoppe of Dorilaeum at the same time put vp a supplication to Martian Valentinian the third against Dioscorus Patriarke of Alexandria with these wordes In most humble wise we beseech
your Maiesties that you will cōmand the reuerend Bishop Dioscorus to answere to those things that we lay to his charge for confirming a wicked heresie deposing vs vniustly directing your sacred precept to oecumenical councel of Bishops to heare the matter between vs and the said Dioscorus and certifie your Maiesties of the whole cause that you may do therein what shal please your Graces Iustinian in his sixt Constitution prescribing what persons he will haue made Bishops and how they shal be qualified and examined before they be admitted threatneth in sharp manner He that doth any thing besides this which we haue appointed both he that is ordered shal be depriued of his function and he that did order him shall loose his Bishopricke for offending this law The like punishment he setteth downe for Simonie Though sayth Iustinian he haue all other things that we before required yet if hee procure a Bishopricke by mony or mony worth Let him knowe that hee shall be turned out of his Bishoprike and doe his orderer this pleasure that he also shall be remoued from his office and from the Clergie So for ordering and not examining that was obiected against the Person If one come to bee made a Bishop and any man contradict and offer to lay somewhat to his charge Let him not be ordered before such complaints be discussed And if he that should make him hasten to consecration after such contradiction without examining the matter Let him know that which he doth shall be vtterly void and also he that goeth against our law shall be depriued of his Priestly function and he that ordered him without trial shall likewise be remooued from his Episcopall dignitie So for absence from his church after he is Bishop This also we define that no Bishop bee so hardie as to absent himselfe from his Church aboue one whole yere If he be away longer than a yere let the Patriarke of that region cite him orderly to returne If he continue disobedient let him be clean expelled from the sacred number of Bishops And generally for all matters comprised in that constitution The things which we haue decreed for the preseruation of ecclesiastical order and state agreeable to the tenor and prescript of the sacred rules let the most holy Patriarkes of euery Prouince the Metropolitanes and the rest of the most reuerend Bishops and Clerks see that they keepe for euer hereafter sure and inuiolable the punishment to him that transgresseth these things shal be to be seuered quite from God and excluded from his Priestly degree In his sixteene constitution commaunding Clerks to be remoued from one Church to an other till the iust number which he decreed were supplied in euery Church he writeth to the Patriarke of Constantinople in this wise Your blessednes shall endeuour to put in execution the things which we haue thought decent for the profite of the sacred and holy Churches And if any thing be attempted to the contrarie let him assure himselfe that durst enter orders against this our law that it doe him no good In his 57 Constitutiō prohibiting the sacred mysteries to be celebrated in priuat Chappels these things saith he we commaund to the most holy Archbishop and vniuersall Patriarke of this Citie In his 123 Constitution you shal find examples enough of his Princely prohibitions and commaundements to Bishops for matters concerning the regiment of the Church For first appointing how Bishoppes shall bee chosen and that the Person elected shall before his admission deliuer a confession of the true faith subscribed with his owne hand and recite the praiers vsed in the sacred communion holy Baptisme and sweare that hee neither hath giuen nor promised nor will giue any thing to those that elected him nor to him that ordereth him nor to any other the rather to attaine his ordering he addeth If any be made Bishope against this obseruation as well he shall be cast out of his Bishoprike as the other that presumed to create him against this forme shall bee seuered one yere from the sacred ministerie and shall forfeit all his goods to the Church where he is Bishop But if any man consecrate one that is accused before hee examine the matter both he that is made and he that did make him shal bee depriued of their episcopall functions Aboue al things This we decree to bee kept that no man be made a Bishop by rewards And therefore as well hee that giueth as he that taketh and he that would bee the meanes to worke it shal be degraded And so going on with Diuers ecclesiastical Chapters he saith We forbid the Bishops to leaue their Churches and to trauell into other coasts And we commaund that in euery Prouince there be yerely kept a Synode where causes of faith and doubts concerning the Canons and administration of ecclesiasticall things as also touching Bishops Priests Deacons and other Clerks and Rulers of Monasteries and Moncks either for their liues or other things needing reformation shall be handled and in conuenient manner examined and corrected according to the sacred Canons and OVR imperial LAVVES Besides we command that all Bishoppes and Priests doe celebrate the sacred oblation and praiers in the holy Baptisme not secretly but with a loud voice so as the faithfull people may heare the religious Priests and Bishops knowing that if they neglect any of these things they shall answer for it in the dreadfull iudgement of the great GOD and our Sauiour Christ neither will wee vnderstanding thereof passe it ouer or leaue it vnpunished We also forbid the most religious Bishops Priests and all other Clerks to play at tables or to companie with such gamsters or to be present at spectacles If any of them offend in this point we command that he bee suspended from his function for three yeres Likewise we forbid all Bishops and Priests to separate any man from the communion til a cause be shewed for which the Canons wil it to be doone If any man separate an other from the communion against this law the partie that is greeued vniustly shal be absolued and receaued to the communion by an higher Priest And he that durst excommunicate vniustly shall be put from the communion by the Bishop that is next aboue him as long as it seemeth good to that superiour Moreouer if the Bishops of the same Synode haue any controuersie betweene them touching ether ecclesiastical right or causes first their Metropolitane with two other Bishops of the same Synod shall determine the matter And if either part find fault with that iudgment then shal the Patriarke of that Prouince heare the cause and define that which is consonant to the canons ecclesiastical and our lawes neither part hauing leaue to cōtradict his sentence If a Clerke or any other of what cause soeuer appeale from a Bishop first the Metropolitane shall iudge the matter according to the sacred canons
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The very children knowe that these three wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A sheepeheard his flocke and to feede haue one and the same deriuation and therefore one and the same signification The holy Ghost himselfe vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Synonima that is words of the same power force For when Christ repeated this charge feed my sheep thriseâ— to Peter in the Gospel of S. Iohn his words are the secoÌ„d time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the third time 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now draw your assumptioÌ„ from S. Pauls wordes rightly translated what conclude you Bishops haue commission from God to feede the Church or flocke of Christ which Princes haue not ergo Bishops by their calling may preach and Princes may not This is al you can infer and this is nothing against vs. Phi. They be superiors to Princes in feeding the flock of Christ ergo they be their superiors Theo. That sequele is not good In building Masons be superiour to Princes in sayling Mariners in fighting Souldiers be these men ergo simplie superiour to Princes I trow not Phi. Preaching the word dispensing the Sacraments pardoning the sinnes or men which are the Bishops charge be things far greater higher than any that Princes haue Theo. The perfection operation of these things which you name depend not on the wils of men but on the power of God therefore the honor estimation of them must serue for the praise of Gods glorie not for the increase of mans pride The Ghostly worke is Gods the bodilie seruice is the Priests wherein Iudas the thiefe Simon the sorcerer and Demas the renegate may chalenge as much as Iames the iust Peter the zealous and Iohn the faithfull the three pillers of Christs church Per ministros dispares Dei munuâ— equale est quia non illorum sed eius est By ministers far vnlike the gift of God saith Augustine is the same because it is not theirs but his Christ sent him that betraied him with the rest of his Disciples to preach the kingdom of heaueÌ„ to shew that the gifts graces of God are bestowed on theÌ„ which receiue the same with faith though he that deliuereth them be as bad as Iudas The things which God giueth saith Chrysostom caÌ„ not be made perfect by the holines of the Priest for all is done by his heauenly grace Only the Priests office is to open his mouth but it is God that worketh all the Priest doth only accomplish the external signe or act Men saith Ambrose in the remission of sinnes ministerium suum exhibeÌ„t non ius alicuius potestatis exercent do their seruice but exercise no right of authority They pray God giueth the seruice is by man the gift is froÌ„ the heauenly power Preaching the word is a worthier part of Apostolike dignity thaÌ„ ministring the sacraments by the witnes of S. Paul himself saying Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach the gospel And yet of preachers the scripture saith Neither he that planteth is any thing nor he that watereth but God that giueth the increase So that neither in the word nor sacraments you may chalenge any thing to man but only the corporal seruice which is common to the godly with heretiks hypocrits the rest is proper to God may not be ascribed to men without iniurie to him that is the true author of them mighty worker in theÌ„ And therefore the reason which you draw from the perfection of Gods graces in the Church to the preferring aduauncing of the Bishops person before the Princes is very vitious because the subiection reueÌ„ge due to the sword is imparted to the Princes person the dignitie vertue of the word sacraments is not to the Bishops Phi. The Priests commission is higher than the Princes why should not the priests person be aboue the Princes The. The priest hath his coÌ„mission as a seruant to cal for subiection obedience not vnto himself but vnto his Lord Master that sent him And this subiection because it is giuen to God infinitely exceedeth that which Princes may looke for But what is this to the Priests person who must preach himself to be The seruant of meaner men thaÌ„ Princes make himself The seruant of al men if he note wel the words of his commission and not striue with Princes for superioritie Phi. For their persons I wil not greatly staÌ„d with you but certainly their power is aboue the princes The. You â—un so fast that you forget where you should be We were debating who should direct princes in matters of faith you be slipt from that entring a new questioÌ„ who shal correct theÌ„ where the former is yet vnfinished Phi. You did coÌ„fesse that princes must obey Bishops so long as they speak truth The. And you would not deny but princes might refuse bishops if they swarued froÌ„ faith Phi. But who shal be iudge whether they swarue froÌ„ faith or no Theo. That is the question which I said was not yet resolued If Bishops teach truth surely princes must obey theÌ„ I mean the word of truth in their mouthes If they go froÌ„ truth theÌ„ princes must auoide theÌ„ To this we both consent but the doubt is whether trueth bee tyed to some certaine Persons or places where Princes may find it whence Princes must fet it or else whether Princes as all others must vse the best meanes they can to discerne true Preachers from false and so be directed by such as they thinke to be sent from God Phi. You would haue Princes and others leane to their owne iudgements and follow their owne fansies We would haue them sticke to the Church and looke to those Pastours whose faith can not faile Theo. Such Pastours bee worth the following if you can point vs to them Phi. Peters fayth can not fayle follow that faith and you can not misse the trueth Theo. He that keepeth Peters fayth in deede can not want the trueth because Peter beleeued the truth but we bee nothing the nearer for this Pauls fayth was likewise trueth and so was the faith of Matthew Iames Iohn Iude and others but who must be credited what fayth Peter and the rest preached Shall we take that at your hands by report or at their owne mouthes by writing Phi. If their writings were not darke or might not bee wrested the Scriptures were the best witnesses of their doctrine but now their successours must rather be trusted than euery man suffered to take what fayth he list out of their writings Theo. Rather so than worse doth not answere my question but must we trust their successours in matters of faith against or besides their writings Phi. Against their writings we must not besides their writings we must For many things are beleeued which are not expressed in the scriptures The.
With you but not with the Church of God Phi. The church we say beleeueth many things which shee receiued by tradition and not by writing Theo. Your Church I know doth but the Church of Christ I say neuer did not doth Phi. Had the Church of Christ no traditions that were not written Theo. Rites and ceremonies she had but no points of fayth that were not written Phi. This is the ground of all your errors vppon this pretence you reiect the vnwritten verities of the church Theo. If this bee an error S. Paul himselfe was the first author of it and all the fathers of Christes Church with one consent auouch the same Phi. Neuer tell vs that tale Theo. Yeas we will tell it and proue it to you Phi. You can not Theo. We can and will S. Paul is short but sure Faith is by hearing and hearing by the word of God Whence wee collect ergo faith is by the word of God and not without it nor besâ—des it You heard S. Basils opinion before It is an euident slyding from the faith a point of the greatest pride that may be either to depart from that which is written or to receiue that which is not written To that you may ioyne this conclusion of his If euery thing that is not of fayth be sinne as S. Paul affirmeth and fayth come by hearing and hearing by the woorde of God ergo whatsoeuer is without or besides the diuine Scriptures because it is not of fayth it is sinne Seekest thou for faith Emperour sayth Hilarie to Constantius Heare it not out of the late scroles but out of Gods bookes Heare I beseech thee that which is written of Christ lest vnder preteÌ„ce therof of things not written bee preached And in an other place pressing his aduersarie Thou sayth he which denyest things written what remaineth but that thou beleeue things vnwritten counting that for a passing absurditie which you now would establish as the surest way to discerne the trueth Euen so doth Hierom against Heluidius As wee denie not those thinges that are written so wee reiect vtterly those thinges which are not written For Our Lord sauiour speaketh to vs in the Scriptures of his Princes that is of his Apostles and Euangelists which were not which are in the church to this end that his Apostles excepted whatsoeuer thing besides should afterward bee sayd might bee cut off and not haue authoritie Tertullian speaking in the person of all christians We neede no farther search after the Gospel When once we beleeue wee desire nothing else to beleeue for this wee first beleeue that there is nothing besides the Gospel which wee ought to beleeue And refelling the heretike Hermogenes I adore saith he the fulnes of the scriptures Let Hermogenes shew me where this that he teacheth is written If it be not writteÌ„ let him feare the curse prouided for adders diminishers Yea saith Ambrose We iustly coÌ„demn al new things which Christ did not teach because to the faithful Christ is the way So then if Christ did not teach that which we teach eueÌ„ we our selues do iudge it to be detestable The rest are of the same mind The disposition of our saluation sayth Irineus we knew by none other than by those by whom the Gospel came vnto vs the which at first they preached by mouth but afterward by Gods appointmeÌ„t they did deliuer it to vs in writing that it should be the foundatioÌ„ and pillour of our faith It is necessary for vs saith Cyril to folow the diuine Scriptures in nothing to go from their prescription The mountaines of Israel whereon God promised to feede his flocke are saith Augustine the writers of the diuine Scriptures Feeding there you feede safely whatsoeuer you learne thence count it sauorie whatsoeuer is besides theÌ„ refuse it Therefore whether it be touching Christ or his Church or any matters els which concerneth our faith life I say not if we but as followeth in Paul if an angel from heauen teach any thing besides that which you haue receiued in the Scriptures of the Law and the Gospel hold him accursed Isidorus as your owne Lawe produceth him saith A Prelate if he teach or bid any thing besides that which is euidently commaunded in the holy scriptures let him be taken for a false witnes to God a coÌ„mitter of sacrilege Neither Prelate Pope Councel nor Angel may be receiued or trusted in matters of fayth I say not against the Scriptures but not without or besides the scriptures If therefore you seeke to leade Princes vnto trueth you must guyde them thereto by the word of trueth otherwise you doe but deceiue them you doe not direct them King Dauid will teach you by what meanes himself was and all other godly Princes ought to be directed Thy word is a lanterne to my feete a light vnto my paths I haue sworne and wil performe it that I wil keepe thy righteous iudgements And God by Moses appointing his law to be the directioÌ„ of Princes coÌ„maundeth a copie thereof to be deliuered vnto the king sitting on his throne that he should reade therein all the daies of his life and learne to feare the Lord his God to keepe al the words of that lawe This charge which God giueth bindeth princes as well as others Whatsoeuer I commaund that shal you do thou shalt put nothing thereto nor take ought there from And Esay speaketh not of priuate persons only but of common-wealths also when he saith Shoulde not a people consult their God And shewing immediatly which way they might consult and aske counsell of God from the liuing sayth he to the dead to the law rather and the testimonie if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them They haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them is the surest way to saue Prince people froÌ„ the place of torment consequently the best direction for theÌ„ both Phi. The word of God is we doubt not the best direction for Princes priuate men if it be rightly vnderstood but Al heresies patch thence the pillowes which they lay vnder the elbowes of all flesh as S. Hierom sayth and They talke of scriptures perswade by Scriptures as Tertullian noteth And therefore the Scriptures being but dumble recordes that may be diuersly construed and easily wrested there must needes bee some iudge on earth that may bee personally pronounce which is the true meaning and right sense of the Scriptures before Princes may trust that direction Otherwise men may brech what blasphemies they will and pretend Scripture when they haue done as the Arrians Sabellians Macedonians and al other heretikes did and do Theo. That heretikes couet a shew of scriptures is a case so cleare that it needeth no words For howe coulde they treate of matters of faith
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
Thus S. Cyril largely sheweth In the proposition of Caiphas there is contained a double sense one which Caiphas himselfe ment that it was expedient Christ should die by the hands of the Iewes lest the whole Nation should bee destroyed by the Romanes This was a false and wicked meaning comming from the lewd intention of Caiphas An other sense of the same proposition was intended by the holy Ghost that it was needfull that only Christ should die for the saluation of the whole world This Caiphas neither vnderstood nor ment yet his wordes were such as might fitly serue this sense of the holy Ghost For Caiphas himself as crueller readier to wickednes and bloodier than the rest encourageth others staggering at it by saying you perceaue nothing neither vnderstād you that it is expediēt the life of one man should be neglected for the whole coūtrie Phi. He spake this by the holy Ghost Theo. The diuell possessed his hart but the power of God restrained and ordered his speach Phi. Had he not the Spirit of Prophesie Theo. No more than Saul the bloudsucker had when he praied for Dauid whom hee sought to kill than Iudas the traytor had when he iustified his master and hanged himselfe yea than the Dyuell had when hee confessed and intreated the Sonne of God not to torment him before his time Phi. Why then doth S. Iohn giue this note of him that he was hie Priest for that yere Theo. S. Iohn noteth this that it pleased God so to temper the hie Priests wordes that where hee spake to hasten the death of our Sauiour his wordes sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning Phi. His tongue spake trueth though his hart did erre Theo. Satan poisoned his hart but GOD bridled his mouth Phi. Can not God doe the like to the Bishop of Rome Theo. No doubt he can but you must proue that he will Phi. If he did so to Caiphas much more will hee do it to the head of his Church Theo. How hangeth this geare together Hee did once so to Caiphas ergo hee will always doe the like where you list to haue it Phi. Not where we list but where he will Theo. That helpeth you litle God can do the like where whē he wil. What is that to the Bishop of Rome We doubt not of Gods power but smile at your folly which conclude this to be ordinarie in the Pope which was extraordinarie in Caiphas Phi. It was ordinarie in Caiphas by reason of his office and so saith S. Iohn The. S. Iohn doth not say it was ordinarie either in al hie priests or in Caiphas for Caiphas himself the very same yere as S. Matt. witnesseth iudicially pronounced our Sauiour to be a blasphemer which I hope you will not say came from the direction of the holy Ghost The hie Priest therefore did erre and that most hainously in iudgement and if this be al your hold the Pope may doe the like Phi. What may be is hard to determine But this we know the Pope did neuer yet erre sitting in his Tribunal to giue iudgement Theo. As though the place and not the Pope had assurance of trueth annexed vnto it What holines hath the Consistorie to safegard the iudge from error The promise of Christ was made to the person and not to the place Phi. To the person but sitting in iudgement Theo. Did Peter sitte in iudgement at that time when he denied his master Phi. Wee say not so Theo But that night was the promise made vnto him and that night performed in him when Peter poore man stoode warming himselfe amongst the manye and durst not answer the first interrogatorie that a silly wenche proposed to him And therefore Christ neuer spake of your Courtes nor Consistories but promised Peter to pardon his fault and to strengthen his faith lest hee should perseuere in that his Apostasie Phi. Had we no warrant for the Bishop of Rome that his faith shall not faile yet experience proueth this which we say to be true that he neuer erred iudicially that is sitting in his Consistorie Theo. What need we care where he sate so long as we bee sure he did erre What wrangling is this to aske for the place where and the time when the Pope spake the wordes Hee that may erre at home may likewise erre abroade If the Pope bee an heretike in his chamber hee can be no Catholike in his Consistorie Phi. Definitiue sentence he neuer gaue any against the faith Theo. What are his decretals but definitiue sentences And in those he hath erred Phi. Neuer Theo. The Decretal of Clemens which I before alleaged is altogether erronious They were two Decretall Epistles for the which Honorius was condemned The decretal of Vigilius which Liberatus remembreth is expresly against the faith Celestinus erred iudicially as your owne friendes confesse but you haue pared that Decretall as you haue done many others and left out the later part lest we should spie the fault Phi. Who told you so Theo. They that had no cause to belie you Alfonsus a great Patrone of your side sayth It is a thing manifest to al men that Pope Celestinus erred touching the mariage of the faithful when either part falleth into heresie Neither was this error of Celestinus such as ought to be imputed only to negligence so that we may say he erred as a priuate person and not as Pope because this decision of Celestinus was in the auncient Decratals which I my selfe haue seene and read Innocentius the third when he decided the case confessed that one of his predecessours had decreed otherwise which saith the gloze was Celestinus whose resolution was in the olde Decretals and it was euil that Celestinus sayd Alexander the 3. in a matter of great importance said Quamuis aliter a quibusdam praedecessoribus nostris sit aliquando iudicatum though some of our predecessours haue heretofore otherwise giuen iudgement Phi. These were matters of mariage and not of faith Theo. As though the seuering of those whom God hath ioyned did not touch the faith and so did some of these Popes and that iudicially by their contrarie Decrees Againe Nicolas the fourth sayth in his Decretal that To renounce the proprietie of all thinges not in special only but in common also is meritorious and holy which Christ taught by word and confirmed by example and the first foūders of the militant church deriued to others by the paterne of their doctrine life Iohn the 22. sayth it is hereticall to affirme that Christ his Apostles had nothing in speciall nor in common Phi. The next extrauagant reconcileth them both Theo. The Pope laboureth for life to shift off the matter at last commeth with a very iest De sola abdicatione proprietatis non iuris alterius in praefata declaratione
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
ministers of Christs spouse and kingdom no more than his Apostles were if so much and your commission is no larger than theirs if it be so large and yet the Apostles themselues had no power to depose Princes but submitted their bodies and liues to the powers which God had ordained and taught Christes most deare spouse his very bodie mystical to do the like and shee did so not offering any example of resisting and deposing Princes for a thousand yeres after shee first receiued at her husbands mouth a charge to honour them and in earthly things to obay them As for your Episcopall power ouer Princes if that be it you seeke for and not to take their kingdomes from them I tolde you before if they breake the Law of God you may reproue them if they heare you not you may leaue them in their sinnes and shut heauen against them if they fall to open heresie or wilfull impietie you may refuse to communicate with them in prayers and other diuine duties yea you must rather yeeld your liues with submission into their hands than deliuer them the word and sacraments otherwise than God hath appointed farther than this if you will go to the temporall punishing and finall displacing of them from their thrones and to the discharging of the people from the oth and obedience towards such Princes which is the right intent of your Romish censures as your owne woordes import though your cause were neuer so good as yours is starke naught you then turne religion into rebellion patience into violence wordes into weapons preaching into fighting fidelitie into periurie subiection into sedition and in steede of the seruantes of GOD which you might bee by enduring you become the Souldiers of Satan by resisting the powers which GOD hath ordayned Phi. Your threates were somewhat if the Church had not first deposed them Theo. Pull not out your owne eyes with your owne handes The Church hath no such Commission from Christ. Shee can not discharge smaller dueties as of children to their Parents and wiues to their husbandes much lesse greater as subiection othe and loyaltie to Princes Say if you dare that the Preceptes of subiection and submission vnto Princes in the sacred Scriptures doe not binde Bishoppes as well as others If they doe then marke what mockeries you make of the woorde of God Let euery soule and therefore euery Bishoppe bee subiect to the higher Powers that you will haue to stande vntill the Bishoppes depose them and take their power from them You must bee subiect the Bishoppes you meane as long as they list For if they like not their Prince by your Doctrine they may displace him Submit your selues to the king as excelling all others but you will bee sure to excell him and when you see your time to make him the meanest amongest the people Giue vnto Caesar the thinges that bee Caesars but if Caesar anger you you take from him goods Landes Scepter sworde life and all O worthie interpreters of Gods heauenly will A fewe such glozes will helpe Christ himselfe out of his kingdome such cunning you haue to defeate the commaundementes of the holy Ghost and to spoyle innocent and Christian Princes of their Crownes when you lyst to displace them Phi. They bee your foolish additions and not ours Theo. Auoyde the textes which wee bring without these or the like constructions and take the whole cause for your labour Well you may florish with the name of the Church where I say the Bishoppes and require some causes before Princes shoulde bee deposed which I referre to the discretion of the deposer but in effect your answeres must bee as I report them For what if the Pope offer open wrong to Princes of his owne Religion as hee did to Philippe the Faire King of Fraunce to Frederike the second Germane Emperour and to many others Who shall reuerse his definitiue sentence by your doctrine but himselfe that either for shame may not or for pride will not relent from his error Phi. Therefore wee referre the right of deposing Princes to the Church because wee woulde bee sure to haue it done by Lawe order and iudgement Theo. And that solemne proces of Lawe order and iudgement in your Church which you crake of when all is done is nothing els but the Popes pleasure for hee will bee tied neither to Councell nor Canon farther than standeth with his liking his Decrees be Canons and a reason of his fact may no man aske him by your Lawes and therefore Princes haue a warme sute to depend on such Lawes orders and iudgements As for the Church of Christ she neuer tooke any such thing vpon her neither did shee euer make any Decree that Prelats might depose Princes She endured as well heretikes and Apostataes as Pagans and persecutours many hundred yeeres to the glorious triall of her fayth and eternall reward of her patience Onely Gregorie the 7. Bishop of Rome more than a thousande yeres after Christ in the heighth of his pride and furie gaue the first onset to depose his Lord and master and others after him were easily led to followe his example but to this day neuer christian king nor Realme acknowledged or obeyed that power in the Pope which yet he doth wickedly chalenge as you do wilfully defend Phi. It may please the gentle readers to enforme their consciences partly by that is sayde before and specially by that which followeth Where they shall finde that streight vppon the first conuersion of kinges to the faith as the good and godly haue euer obeyed the Church and submitted themselues to ecclesiasticall censures and discipline so the euill and obstinate could neuer orderly discharge themselues from the same without euident note of iniustice tyrannie and irreligiositie and were either in fine brought to order penance or else to confusion both temporal and eternal Theo. Hee must be very gentle that will enforme his conscience with your bare surmises other enformations you giue none That which is said before is to small purpose that which followeth is to smaller Neuer good nor godly king obeyed the Popes sentence of deposition and besides the Pope neuer Church Councell nor Pastour offered any such wrong to Christian or heathen Princes What you call orderly discharging of themselues I knowe not the wisest and worthiest Princes that those dayes bred neither dissenting in fayth from the Bishop of Rome nor then doubting of his Pastoral headship ouer the Church such was the blindnes of their times yet openly despised and vtterly resisted his arrogant censures in depriuing Princes and howsoeuer by warres conspiracies and treasons hee tyred some of them God giuing Princes for the neglect of his trueth and number of their sinnes into the handes and power of Antichrist yet others bridled and kirbed your holy father himself in such sort that he had small ioy of his enterprise Of their eternall confusion
persons excōmunicate and consequently your applying of scriptures that wee may not salute them nor keepe companie with them is a violent deprauing of these textes and refuted by the manifest practise of Christes Church And because wee bee come so farre I will adde somewhat touching the rest of your wise pretences Constantius Valens Valentinian the younger Anastasius Iustinian Heraclius Constantine the 4. and others were hereticall Princes Iulian an open Apostata and yet the Church of Christ endured serued and obeyed them not in temporall things only but in ecclesiasticall also so farre as their Lawes did not impugne the faith or corrupt good manners Phi. You inferre vpon our examples which we can auoyde when wee wil but you answere them not Theo. Our illation which you shall neuer auoyd proueth your examples to conclude for vs and not against vs. You shewe that Princes were remoued from the Sacraments which we graunt but that they were remoued from their kingdomes which we denie that you shewe not and so by your silence you confesse that to bee most true which wee affirme that hereticall and excommunicate Princes must haue their due subiection honour and tribute as they had before they fell to such impieties because they bee perils to their soules not forfeytures of their Crownes Other answere we neede not make you since this will suffice And yet if wee would examine your examples by the pole I coulde take many of them tardie A booke written in Chrysostomes name witnesseth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche excluded a Christian Emperour out of the Church for murdering a young Prince committed to him for an hostage and was martyred by the same tyrant for his constancie but this can not stand with the stories of the Church nor with your owne Author whom you alleage for the repentance and submission that you say this Emperour was after brought to by Fabian the generall sheephearde of Christendome Eusebius who wrate an hundreth yeeres before Chrysostome sayth that Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison vnder Decius an heathen Tyrant After Philip succeeded Decius who for hatred of Philip persecuted the Church in the which persecution Fabianus Bishoppe of Rome was martyred and Babylas Bishoppe of Antioche died in prison after the constant confession of his fayth With him agreeth Nicephorus Babylas sub Decio post confessionem fortiter obitam in vinculis discessit Babylas after hee had made a stout confession of his fayth dyed in Prison vnder Decius If hee died vnder Decius howe coulde hee bee slaine by Philippus or Numerius that were before Decius If hee deceased in Prison how can your Chrysostome say that hee was caried out of Prison to his death and slaine Can you reconcile these thinges and not giue one of your Authors the lie If that declamation were Chrysostomes hee wrate it when he came fresh from the Philosophers schooles as both the stile matter argue and before he was Bishoppe as his owne woordes declare For speaking of the place where Babylas was Bishoppe he sayth Nostri huius gregis curam gerebat he was Pastor of this our flocke and Chrysostome was Bishop of Constantinople not of Antioche Who pursued the saide Emperour by like excommunication for killing his Pastor since the Pastor was aliue after the Emperour was dead and died in prison without any violence neither can you tell neither neede wee care Of Philip Nicephorus sayth no such thing in the place which you quote hee repeateth only that which Eusebius long before reported in these words Of Philip the fame is that fauouring Christ and willing the night before Easter to ioyne with the multitude of Christians in their prayers hee was not suffered so to doe by the Bishoppe that then was vnlesse hee would first acknowledge his sinnes and keepe his place with the repentants Otherwise he could not be admitted because his sinnes were many And they say that hee gladly hearkened to the Bishop and shewed his syncere and religious mynde to God-ward by his deedes The ground of the whole in him that first wrate it is but hearesay the principall matter whether the Prince were remooued from the communion or neuer before admitted to the Lordes table very doubtfull The thing required at his handes was no more but to humble himselfe in the sight of God to whome all Princes must stoope with as great deuotion and submission as the poorest woormes that are on earth The conclusion may bee that Princes then were trayned to Godlinesse but that they were depriued of their kingdomes is a wicked and vngodly suggestion of yours Wee may with as good reason say a Frier many tymes doeth shriue the Pope Ergo a Frier may depose the Pope which I thinke your holy Father will not like of Saint Ambrose is the onely example in all antiquitie which fully proueth that a Bishoppe did prohibite a Prince to enter the Church and to bee partaker of the Lordes table which wee neither deny nor dispraise considering the cause and the manner of the fact The Prince for a tumult raysed by some of the inhabitants of Thessalonica caused his souldiers without finding or searching the doers to murder the people were they straungers or Citizens faultlesse or faultie to the number of seuen thousand After this execution at his next comming to the Church S. Ambrose stepped to the Church dore and sayd Thou seemest O Prince not to vnderstand what a monsterous slaughter of people is committed by thee neither doth rage suffer thee to weigh with thy selfe what thou hast done yet must thou know that from dust we came to dust we shal Let not therfore the brightnes of thy robes hide frō thee the weaknes of flesh that is vnder them Thy subiects are of the same metall which thou art serue the same Lord that thou doest With what eyes therefore wilt thou behold the house of this cōmon Lord with what feete wilt thou tread on his holy pauements Wilt thou reach these hāds dropping yet with the blood of innocents to receiue the most sacred bodie of the Lorde Wilt thou put that precious blood of his to thy mouth which in a rage hast spilt so much Christian blood Depart rather and heape not one sinne on an other neither refuse this bond which the Lord of all doeth ratifie in heauen It is not much and it will restoare thee the health of thy soule This strake the Christian Prince to the heart and turning about hee went home with teares and all the tyme that hee was kept out of the Church as a man in mourning hee woulde not put on his Imperiall robes but that Ambrose commaunded him to put off his kingly robes and to leaue his Imperiall throne in the Chauncel this is your venemous admixtion the storie sayth no such thing You falsely father it on S. Ambrose to make men beleeue that the Bishoppe might as well haue taken the princes scepter and sworde from
heretiks from the beginning of the world to this day haue beene hampered So that your eye sight was not vp when you tooke a prayer for a iudgement a fourme of imprecation for a sentence of depriuation a curse precedent for an execution that should be subsequent Phi. This was the right and power of S. Gregorie and this hath been the fayth of christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted and neuer subiect called in question much lesse accused of treason for it til this time and lest of al made or found treason by the old lawes in K. Edward the thirds raigne as is pretended howsoeuer by their new Lawes they may and do make what they list a crime capitall Theo. Gregorie cursed them and prayed against them that should disorder or alter his grant made at the Princes motion with the consent of al the prelates in Italie with the good will of the Romane Senate and the fauourable iudgement of al the Bishops of France This is not it that is called in question You beare armes against your naturall prince and encourage her subiects that by Gods law should obey her to take her crowne from her when the Pope willeth them This Gregorie neuer spake of neither did England at any time frō the first receiuing of the faith to this day euer acknowledge any such right or power in the Pope to depose princes Much lesse then was this the faith of christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted as you brauely but falsely boast Phi. In K. Iohns time the Prince realme were of this opinion which wee are now Theo. They were not Some bishops Monks offended with the King for the losse of their goods fled the realm tooke part with the Pope against the King the Barons for other causes loued not their King as appeared by their departure frō him in Normandie before this trouble began by their general rebellion against him when the Pope had not only released him but also did vphold him to the vttermost of his power And though he had lost the hearts of his Nobilitie before now of his Clergie by turning them out of al their liuings yet was there no conspiring against him in those fiue yeres in which hee stoode excommunicate And to him for defence of himself his land came threeskore thousand able men of his own subiects wel furnished besides an infinite number that were sent home againe for want of armour and a fleete greater than that which the King of Fraunce had against him Phi. If his armie were so great and his people so sure why would he not trie the field with the king of France Theo. He saw the strife was but for the admittance of a bishop better to slip his right in so small an iniurie than to put his owne state and welfare to the doubtful successe of battaile Phi. The storie saith he was afraid lest he should bee left alone in the field bee forsaken of his own nation nobles Theo. So Pandulfus told him to afreight him make him yeelde the sooner but the Pope himself cōplaineth of the contrarie that the Barons of Englād by a peruerse order did rise in armes against their king after hee was conuerted and had satisfied the Church who assisted him when hee did offend the Church And yet I am of opinion they would easily haue forsaken him not for respect of your Romish censures but for their extreme detestation of his odious and tyrannous gouernement which they shewed after his reconciliation to the See of Rome more than they did before and obeyed neither King nor Pope so long as he liued and enioyed the Crowne This realme therfore in the time of King Iohn assisted their Prince against the Pope and when the king had submitted himselfe and rented his Crowne at the Popes handes they resisted both Prince and Pope and elected an other Afore that and since that this realm neuer confessed or beleeued any right or power in the pope to depose Princes Phi. They neuer made it treason to be of that beliefe til this miserable time in which wee lyue Theo. Richard the second very neere two hundreth yeres agoe made it death for any man to bring or sende within this realme any summons sentence or excommunication from Rome against any person for the cause of making motion assent or execution of the statute of prouisours which barred the bishoppe of Rome from giuing reseruing or disposing Bishopricks and benefices in this land To impeach the Kings lawes or to defeate him of his smaller inheritances as aduousons Patronages by censures from Rome was death in those dayes what thinke you would they haue sayd to him that shoulde haue brought a bull to depriue the Prince of his crowne or a warrant to rebel against him to take his life from him as you doe in our dayes And because you stand so much on the word treason why should not the statute of Edward the thirde recensing Treasons extend directly to your doings It is there numbred among treasons to compasse or imagine the death of the King to leuy warre against him in his Realme or to bee adherent to the Kinges enemies in his Realme or to giue them ayde and comfort within the realme or else where If al wars waged against y◠prince within the Realme that is by subiects are treasonable howe shoulde your warres for religion against your soueraigne be iust and honourable If to ayde or comfort the kinges enemies within the realme or else where be trayterous conspiracie how can you stirre vp forraine power to assault the realme perswade the people of this land with armes to displace the prince and not incurre that crime Phi. Doe wee set straungers to inuade or subiects to rebell Theo. You be adherents and instruments to him that doth Phi. You meane wee bee of the same faith with the Church of Rome If that bee treason then wee are traytours Theo. We talke not of your fayth but of your woorkes Beleeue what you list so you meddle not with ayding nor comforting inuasion nor rebellion Phi. We doe not Theo. You commend them and allowe them that wil doe either yourselfe in this place defende their enterprise to be godly iust and honorable Your fellowes before you in their printed bookes openly did celebrate them as Martyrs that lost their liues in the North for bearing armes against the Queene What greater comfort can you giue to rebels and enemies than to animate and encourage them with praises promises defences and honors both in this worlde and the next It is more pernicious to fire the heart than to warme the hand to minister courage than to giue drinke to them that shal fight against the Prince In all actions the perswaders and enducers are equal with the doers and executours Why then should you not bee within the
compasse of king Edward the thirdes statute for ayding and comforting the Queenes enemies within the realme or elsewhere Phi. You must vnderstand that wee neuer will any man to take armes but for the catholique fayth and at the commaundement of the supreme magistrate against one that was but is no Prince as being iustly deposed Theo. And you must vnderstand that the statute of Edward the third doeth neither allowe the Pope to depose the Prince nor licence the subiect to beare armes for religion against his soueraigne and therefore your warres for religion be trayterous insurrections against the Prince by the Lawes of Edward the third notwithstanding your newe found glozes that you first depose them and after resist them and pursue them with armes by the warrant of holy Churches iudgement and censure Phi. Edward the third neuer ment that to obey the Pope aboue the prince should bee treason Theo. It is not for you now to appoint his meaning His woordes are that to giue ayde or comfort to the Kings enemies and such as leuied warres against him in his realme were it the Pope the French King or whom ye will shoulde bee treason Hee had before his eyes the example of King Iohn vpon whome the Pope set the King of France with all his power for not obeying his censures from Rome he knew hee could not bee defeated of his Crowne without warre and so long as his owne subiects were trustie to him hee feared not the French nor any other that should inuade him To make himselfe therefore assured of his owne people against all men Spanish Scottish French Romish or any by whome the deede might bee doone and yet to decline the enuie of naming the Pope hee with his whole realme by their publique lawe without exception of Person or cause made it treason to giue ayde or comfort within the realme or else where to any whatsoeuer that should warre vpon the king perceiuing the generall would include the Pope or any other that hee shoulde incite against the King as well as if they were distinctly named Phi. You suppose the Prince and the people did secretly conspire against the Pope where as in those dayes they did honour him as the Soueraigne father and Pastour of their soules Theo. Howsoeuer they embraced the religion which hee professed it is euident the King and the whole realme in open Parliament made a generall consociation to repell prouisions and impetrations of ecclesiasticall dignities and offices from Rome and bound them-selues eche to other with all their might in common to withstande citations suspencions excommunications and censures comming from that Consistorie for matters decided in the Kings Courts or pertinent to the Lawes and royall liberties of this Realme and the commons did not sticke in parliament likewise to promise King Richarde the second to stand with him in all cases attempted by the Bishop of Rome against him his Crowne and his Regalitie in all points to liue and die The consociation against the procurers bringers and executours of prohibited processe from Rome was this The King the Prelates Dukes Earles Barons Nobles and other Commons Clerks and Lay people be bound by this present ordinance to aide comfort and counsel the one and the other as often as shall neede and by all the best meanes that may bee made of word and of deede to impeach such offendours and to resist their enterprises and without suffering them to inhabite abide or passe by their Seignories possessions landes iurisdictions or places and be bound to keep defend the one and the other from al damage villanie and reproofe as they should do their owne persons and for their deed and businesse and by such manner and as farreforth as such prosecutions or processe were made or attempted against them in especiall generall or in common The complainct and offer of the Commons to king Richard was this Of late diuers processes be made by our holy father the Bishop of Rome and censures of excommunication vpon certaine Bishops of England because they haue made execution of the kings commandements notwithstanding processe from the Court of Rome for the contrarie to the open disherison of the Crowne and destruction of our Soueraigne Lord the King his Law all his Realme so as the Crowne of England which hath beene so free at al times that it hath beene in subiection to no realme but immediately subiect to God and to none other in all things touching the regalitie of the same Crowne should be submitted to the Bishop of Rome and the Lawes and statutes of the realme by him defeated and destroied at his will in perpetual destruction of the king our soueraigne Lord his Crown and regalitie and of al his realme which God defend Wherefore they al the liege commons of the same realme will be with our sayd Soueraigne Lorde the King and his saide Crown and his regalitie in the cases aforesaide and in all other cases attempted against him his crowne and his regalitie in al points to liue and to die This was the auncient loue and faith of the Commons of this Land toward their Princes against the Bishop of Rome euen by name and this if you were true English or good Christian men you would rather exhort the people vnto than as you doe wish them to take weapon in hand to pull the Prince from her throne because the Bishop of Rome hath sent out his calues to disclaime her Phi. Euer sith the said S. Gregories time or thereabout all Kings in Christendome speciállie those of Spaine Fraunce Pole and England take an oth vppon the holy Euangelistes at their Coronation to keepe and defend the Catholike faith and ours of England expresly to maintaine also the priuileges and liberties of the Church and Clergie giuen by King Edward the confessour and other faithful Kings their auncestors Theo. That Kinges should take an othe to defende the Catholique fayth assist the Church of Christ wee doe not repine onely your collection is foolish if you thinke that by Catholique fayth is by and by ment your late Romish fayth or that the church can haue no priuileges nor liberties except the Pope may deale and distribute kingdomes to his liking The Princes othe in the Lawes of King Edwarde the confessour was to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holy Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his Fathers and predecessours But in our dayes you will not suffer the Prince to gouerne the Church of her kingdome and the Church libertie which you seeke for is a wicked impunitie for sinne and a plaine contempt of all Christian authoritie Phi. S. Thomas of Canterburie putteth his Soueraigne Henry the seconde in memorie thereof both often in speach and expressely in an epistle written to him in these woordes Memores sitis confessionis qâ—am fecistis posuistis super altare apud
Westmonasterium de seruanda Ecclesiae libertate quando consecrati fuistis vncti in regema predecessore nostro Theobaldo Keepe in memorie the confession which you made and layd vpon the altar at Westminster touching the keeping of holy churches liberties when you were consecrated annointed king by my predecessour Theobald Theoph. Your Canterburie Saint was very carefull to put the King in mynd of Church-mens libertie but hee was neuer so religious as to remember what was Church-mens duetie to God and the magistrate Hee could call on others to keepe touche but him-selfe procured a dispensation that his othe shoulde not tye him though it were neuer so lawfull and honest And surely this was a seemely sight for a subiect that had violated his owne fayth and trueth to importune his Soueraigne to obserue couenaunts but such is your store for want of better you must bring periures to talke of promises Phi. The Patriarkes of Constantinople tooke an instrument of such as were to be crowned Emperours specially in the times of heresie wherein they made the like promise and profession to keepe and defend the fayth and decrees of holy Councels So did the Patriarch Euphemius in the coronation of Athanasius Nicephorus in the inuesting of Michael and others in the creation of other Emperours of the East And Zonaras writeth that the Patriarche of Constantinople plainly tolde Isaac Commenus the Emperour that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if hee gouerned not well by him it shoulde bee taken from him againe Theo. From Popes you come to Patriarches from Rome to Constantinople and there in steede of deposing them after their coronation you shew what was exacted at their handes before they were crowned and that not euer nor by any superiour calling but the Bishop of that citie offering once or twise rather to loose his life than to crowne one that he feared would innouate the fayth or afflict the Church Euphemius was the first that gaue this onset and the first that repented it When Ariadna the Empresse that buried her husbande aliue being fallen into a traunce would needes exalt Anastasius a man of no great reckoning before and bestowe both the scepter and her selfe vppon him Euphemius the Patriarch whether it were that hee claymed a consent in that election as wel as others or suspected Anastasius inclination and so thought it easier to exact a confession of his fayth before than after his coronation required him vnder his handewriting to promise that hee woulde alter no poynt of Religion established in the Church Which Anastasius then yeelded to doe but as soone as hee was crowned the first thing almost that hee did he banished Euphemius for his bolde aduenture What you would conclude out of this fact for the deposition of Princes I knowe not well I wotte the Prince depriued the Patriarche and not the Patriarch the Prince though hee fell from the faith which he professed and promised at his coronation to continue Phi. Hee did that hee did by violence Theo. I commend not his doings onely I woulde haue you marke that though he ioyned tyrannie with heresie neither Patriarch nor Pope did depose him Philand The Pope did excommunicate him Theo. So you sayd before but you prooued it by no sufficient testimonie yet graunt hee were I thence inferre the teachers people of the Primatiue Church endured and obeyed an hereticall and excommunicate person as their lawfull Emperour which cleane euerteth all your platfourme Phi. Nicephorus required the like writing of Michael Theo. Michael was chosen to the Empire Stauracius yet liuing and not allowing their act and when hee came the next day to the Church to bee Crowned the Patriarch required his writing that hee woulde neither spill Christian blood nor chaunge the fayth of the Church which Michael willingly graunted Philand The Patriarch then prescribed conditions to the Prince Theo. When the Empire went by election the people might prescribe needefull and honest conditions to which their princes should subscribe before they were crowned Phi. But I talke of the Patriarch Theo. The Patriarch did it not often There were fourtie Christian Emperours from Constantine to Michael and this writing neuer required but of two and those not succeeding but elected Whose coronation the people might tie to those Christian and godly conditions And though the Church were the meetest place and the Patriarch the fittest person in matters of fayth to take the Princes subscription yet was it doone in the presence of the whole people and not without their consents and then onely when some feare of alteration vrged them vnto it The Patriarch of himselfe had neither right nor power to draw the Prince to such couenants as hee would limit and therefore it was necessary the people should ioyne their authoritie with his in that action Philand The Patriarch would not crowne him vnlesse he would subscribe Theo. If he would not an other might The ceremonie of setting the Crowne on the Princes head is a seruice due to him that is chosen not any superioritie in him that doth it and if it bee refused by him that of order is bound to doe it any Christian Bishoppe may perfite it and the other bee punished for his recusance Phi. The Patriarch by your leaue had more interest to the crowning of the Emperour than you mention For Polyeuctus the Patriarch would not suffer Ioannes Zimisces so much as to enter the Church till he had banished the murderers of the former Emperour and thrust the Empresse out of the Court and torne the booke which the Bishoppes were in trouble for and giuen all his goods to the poore Theo. The Empire of Constantinople was nowe 970. yeres after Christ caried along neither by lawfull succession nor election but become a very pray for him that woulde murder his master and defile his mistresse without all respect of dutie or honestie Zimisces not content secretly to keepe Nicephorus wife with her helpe most villanously flew the Emperour in his bed commaunding his men besides the wounds they gaue him in the head and elsewhere with the hilts of their swordes to dash out his teeth breake his iaw-bones Upon this horrible and diuelish slaughter when he came to the Church intending to haue the crowne the Patriarch would not suffer him being polluted with blood to come within the Church Where he confessing that others did it by instigation of the Empresse the Patriarch required that she might bee foorthwith banished and they pursued and the booke torne that entangled the Bishoppes and that he would thinke on some punishment for himselfe Zimisces yeelded to all that the Patriarch asked and for himselfe promised to giue the goods which he had gotten whiles hee was a priuate man to the poore How this serueth your turne I see not The Patriarch kept him not from the Crowne but from the Church
and hee that was kept off was no Prince either by discent or by choice but one that aspired to the crowne by killing the king and abusing the Queene in most haynous manner In which case if the Patriarch had offered his life rather than suffered such an one to approch to the Lords table he had done but his dutie Phi. Would you now haue bishops rebell Theo. You thinke so much on it you can not choose but talke of it I said no such thing the common wealth had to doe with the crowne and not the Bishoppe that if they gaue hee might not denie but as for diuine seruice and Sacraments the Bishoppe might well dâ—me them to that infamous adulterer and murderer Phi. You may perceiue by that which the Patriarch of Constantinople sayd to Isaac Commenus what sway the Bishop of that citie bare in crowning the Emperour He told the Prince plainely that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if he gouerned not well by him it should be taken from him againe Theo. We may perceiue by that which you bring both the pride of the Patriarch and the falshood of your dealing This Bishoppe was a ringleader in the rebellion wherein Michaell Stratiotes the former Emperour was displaced and Isaac Commenus exalted in his steade and when the newe Prince happened to denie the prowde and seditious Patriarch a request which hee made hee brast out in great rage and tolde him that as hee had holpen him by his wicked conspiracie to the Crowne so would he by like meanes helpe him from it An example as fit for your doinges as you coulde possibly light on that a Priest should tel his Prince he would thrust him out of his seate by the head and shoulders Philand If hee gouerned not well hee woulde take the Crowne from him Theo. If hee gouerned not well is your addition and misconstruction of your Author the storie lieth as I report it The woordes of Zonaras are Neque verò Patriarcha superbia illi cedebat sed imperare illi volebat aâ— si quando non impetrasset quae petierat egrè ferebat increpabat minabatur denique quemadmodum imperium illi contulisset ita se idem illi orepturum The Patriarch yeelded not a iote in pride to the prince and if at any time hee missed of the requestes which hee made hee disdayned and cast it in the princes teeth threatned that as hee had promoted him to the kingdome so hee woulde take it from him Nowe in what sort hee with others conspired for Isaac Commenus against Michael Zonaras sheweth in this page before And in trueth hee was ledde with the same spirite that Hildebrande was liuing at the same time with him and sitting at Constantinople whiles the other raigned in Rome and had the very same euent of his pride which Hildebrande had the Greeke Prince being not able to beare the Patriarches insolencie and therefore banishing him where for spite and anger hee shortly after dyed Philand Likewise when kinges that before were infidels doe enter by Baptisme into the Church they submitte their scepters to Christ and consequently make them-selues subiect and punishable if they reuolt from their fayth and promisâ— Theoph. When Kinges by Baptisme put on Christ they submitte their scepters and soules to the woorde and will of Christ but what this auayleth the Pope I see not except you assume that your Holy Father is Christ and so the subiection professed by Kinges vnto Christ must be yeelded to your Romish Antichrist which were very farre fet and skant worth the cariage Phi. If they reuolt from their fayth they bee punishable by reason of their former subiection vnto Christ. Theo. Yea verily and that not onely in this worlde if it please him but in the next also with euerlasting paines if they repent not Philand If they bee punishable in this world then may they be depriued Theo. Doth Christ vse no punishmâ—â—t but depriuation or euer read you that in this life Christ sententially deposed any Prince though hee might haue punished many Phi. I meane they may bee depriued by men if they reuolt from their promise made to Christ. Theoph. Your owne meanings bee your best argumentes otherwise I see no strength in this reason Princes are punishable if they breake their fayth giuen to Christ Ergo by men and if by any man ergo by the Pope This is leaping logike of all that euer I heard Philand They submitted them-selues in Baptisme to bee punished by depriuation if they kept not fayth and trueth with Christ. Theo. If you shoulde not eate till you prooue that assertion you shoulde fast a lent not of dayes but of yeeres It is a wicked error to say that any priuate man in Baptisme must or doeth submitte him-selfe to the violent and corporall correction of his flesh or to the temporall losses of land or life which you would fasten on Christian Princes by vertue of their Baptisme Philand Vppon these conditions and none other Kinges bee receiued of the Bishoppe that in Gods behalfe annoynteth them which othe and promise being not obserued they breake with GOD and their people and their people may and by order of Christ his supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them heresie and infidelitie in the Prince tending directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiectes and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church and true religion for the defence of which kinges by GOD are giuen Theoph. Againe you leape from the baptising to the crowning of Princes and because at their admission into the Church they promised to renounce the Dyuell and his woorkes but not their swoordes and scepters which are of GOD you range to their coronations and tell vs in great state that the Bishoppes which annoynted them in Gods behalfe did not receiue them to bee kinges but on these conditions as though it were in the handes of Bishops to receiue and reiect Kinges and to prescribe them conditions of taking and leauing the Crowne Faine you woulde encroche vpon Kinges by the Bishoppes act and oyle that in the ende you might possesse the Pope with a full interest to dispose their Crownes at his pleasure but such as bee wise will looke to your fingers and keepe you short of that desire The solemne rites of coronations haue their ende and vtilitie but no direct force nor necessitie They bee good admonishmentes to put Princes in mynde of their duetie but no increasements of their dignitie For they be Gods annointed not in respect of the materiall oyle which the Bishoppe vseth but in consideration of their power which is ordayned of the sword which is authorized of their Persons which are elected by GOD and endued with the giftes of his spirite for the better guyding of his people If oyle be added it is but a ceremonie representing that to
but hee should deny God Hee sinned not against the king when he constantly went forward in the exercise of prayer to God Daniel therefore doeth rightly defend himself that he did no wickednesse against the king in that being bound to obey the preceptes of God he neglected the kinges commaundement to the contrary Then follow your wordes that Princes loose their right to be obeyed when they presume to commaund against God and that wee were better defie their edictes to their faces than obey them when they waxe so froward that they will put God from his right and sit in his throne Phi. For declaration of this text and for cutting off all cauillation about the interpretation of his wordes your brother Beza shall speake next who alloweth and highly commendeth in writing the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the lawes and lawfull king of that countrie saying in his Epistle dedicatorie of his new Testamēt to the Queene of England her selfe That the Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy laide the first foundation of restoring true Christian religion in France by consecrating most happily their blood to God in the battel of Druze Where of also the Ministers of the reformed French Churches as their phrase is do giue their common verdict in the confession of their faith thus We affirme that subiects must obey the Lawes pay tribute beare all burdens imposed and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates so for all that that the supreme dominion and due of God bee not violated Theo. You haue already belied Caluine and nowe you take the like course with Beza and the French churches Their speach can bee no declaration of Caluines words if they did leane that way which you make them as they doe not therefore this is but a Friers tricke to abuse both writers Readers Phi. Beza highly commendeth the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the Lawes and lawfull king of that countrie Theo. The battell which Beza speaketh of was neither against the Lawes nor the king of that countrie That olde fore the Duke of Guise hating the Nobles of Fraunce as being himselfe a straunger and seeking to tredde them downe whom he knew inclined to religion that he might strengthen him selfe and his house to take the crowne if ought shoulde befall the kinges line as his sonne the yong Duke at this present in armes for that cause doth not sticke to professe watching his oportunitie whiles the king of Fraunce was yet vnder yeares armed him-selfe to the field as his sonne now doth and against all Lawe with open force murdered many hundreth subiectes as they were making their prayers to God in their assemblies vpon pretence that their seruice was not permitted by the Lawes of that Realme The Nobles and Princes of Fraunce perceiuing his malice seeing his iniustice that being a subiect as they were he would with priuate and armed violence murder innocents neither conuented nor condemned which the king himselfe if he had beene of age by the lawes of their Countrie could not doe gathered togither to keepe their owne liues from the fury of that violent bloodsucker and in that case if they did repell force what haue you to say against it or why should not Beza praise the Prince of Condy and others for defending the Lawes of God and that Realme against the Guises open iniurie with the consecrating of their blood most happily to God Phi. The Duke did nothing without the king and the Queene mother and therefore impugning the one they impugne the other Theo. The king was yong and in the Guises hands therefore his consent with the Peeres states of his Realme that a subiect should doe execution vpon his people by the sword without all order of iustice could bee nothing worth The king had neither age to discerne it nor freedome to denie it nor law to decree it Phi. The Queene mother had her sonne in custodie and not the Duke and with her consent were these thinges done Theo. Of the Queene mother of Fraunce I will say no more but that the auncient lawe of that Realme did barre her from the Crowne and therefore her consenting with the Guise might sharpen the doer but not authorize the deede Phi. Defend you then their bearing armes against the king Theo. To depriue the king or annoy the Realme they bare none but to saue themselues from the violent and wrongfull oppression of one that abused the kinges youth to the destruction of his lawes Nobles and commons Phi. As you say Theo. And you shall neuer proue the contrary But these thinges are without our limites Wee be scholers not souldiers diuines not lawyers English not French The circumstances of their warres no man exactly knoweth besides themselues as also we knowe not the lawes of that Land We wil therefore not enter these actes which haue so many parts precedentes causes concurrents and those to vs vnknowen and yet all to bee discussed and proued before Beza may be charged with this opinion by his cōmending the battel of Druze but will rather giue you his vndoubted iudgement out of his owne workes quite against that which you slaunder him with Purposely treating of the obedience which is due to Magistrates thus hee resolueth Quod autem attinet ad priuatos homines tenere illos oportet plurimum inter se differre iniuriam inferre iniuriam pati Iniuriam enim pati nostrum est sic praecipiente Domino suo exemplo nobis praeeunte quum nobis illam vi arcere non licet ex nostrae vocationis praescripto extra quam nefas est nobis vel pedem ponere neque aliud vllum remedium hic proponitur priuatis hominibus tyranno subiectis praeter vitae emendationem preces lacrymas As touching priuate men they must holde great difference betweene doing and suffering wrong It is our part to suffer iniurie the Lord so commaunding and teaching vs by his owne example for so much as it is not lawfull for vs to repell it with force by the prescript of our calling from the which we may not step one foote neither is there here proposed any other remedy for priuate men that are vnder a tyrant but the amending of their liues and therewithall prayers and teares And making a plaine distinction betweene not obeying and taking armes whē the Magistrate commaundeth against God hee saith This rule is firme and sure that we must obey God rather than man so often as we can not obey the preceptes of men but wee must violate the authoritie of that supreme King of Kinges and Lord of Lordes yet so that wee remember it is one thing not to obey them and an other thing to resist or take armes which God hath not permitted thee So the midwiues are praised that obeyed not Pharaoh and the Apostles and all the Prophetes and Martyrs could by no tyrants bee
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
thou these thinges and who gaue thee this authoritie When Iohn began to baptize the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him WHO ART THOV And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias or the Prophete that was looked for they inferred Why Baptizest thou then if thou bee neither Christ nor Elias nor the Prophete And euen so they asked the Apostles by what power or in what name haue you done this Philand The Apostles commission wee knowe but yours wee know not Theo. You can not bee ignorant of ours if you knowe theirs So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach which they had Keepe your competent iurisdictions iudiciall cognitions and legal decisions to your selfe the sonne of GOD first founded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers not by the summons of Consistories and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie til my Lorde the Pope and his mytred fathers can intende to meete and list to consent to the ruine as they thinke of their dignities and liberties Phi. Despise you Councels Theo. By no meanes so long as they bee Councels that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers but if they waxe wanton against Christ and will not haue trueth receiued vntil they haue consented wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked which no Christian ought to reuerence Phi. Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat but you hâ—ue it not Theo. Then should that be the question betwixt vs not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Councell what religion they woulde professe For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his tâ—ueth against the which as Tertullian sayth no man may prescribe not space of tymes not patronage of persons not priuilege of places He therefore that defendeth trueth is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him as it was against Noah when GOD saued him and drowned them for a monument of his iustice to quaile the route and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende Phi. Still you ground your selues as if you had the trueth Theo. If we haue the poorest Preacher in this Realme hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes and therefore whether we haue or no must be the question Phi. Wee say you haue not and yet if you had your proceedings in it are disorderly Theoph. You must shew vs some reason Phi. The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen Theo. Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church Phi. What else Theo. And may not euery priuate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes which God hath made whosoeuer say nay Phi. Hee must Theo. May not the Prince and the people doe the like Phi. They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God Theo. What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded Phi. That is odiously spoken Theo. But truely The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church The prince as also the Nobles and coÌ„mons submitted their consents to the word of God the Bishops refused The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme that shall stande for good there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament as you lewdly complaine but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on Phi. In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices Theo. In making lawes they had Phi. True but lawes for religion they might not prescribe Theo. No more might Bishops It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued Phi. Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops Theo. They must teach leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people to examine their doctrine and auoide their errours and if they teach not truth the Prince and people may repell them as the Parliament did which you speake of Phi. The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court. Theo. They tooke it not vpon them Phi. Yeas The determination decision and definition of truthes and errours of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other generall councell Theo. The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell For who knoweth not that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted Phi. What did they then Theo. They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme to the word of God which by law they might as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies Phi. The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers Theo. Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene Elizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ. Phi. The faith of Christ is in question the faith of our fathers is not Theo. The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe the faith of our fathers we be not Phi. Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ. Theo. What priuilege had our fathers more than we that they could not erre Phi. Aske thy father saith Moses and he will shew thee thine elders and they will tell thee Theo. Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie as well as our ancestors were to vs Phil. Yeas Theo. Then must our children aske of vs as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre why might not our fathers as
them-selues venemous in saying ' Ye vipers brood and Steuen ful of the holy Ghost rated the Iewes on this wise Ye stifnecked and of vncircumcised harts and eares yee haue alwaies resisted the holy Ghost as your fathers did so doe you It is therefore a straunge course that you take to make the people disobey God to follow their fathers and a stranger that you freely permit all kinde of Infidelity and tyranny to your selues vnder the names of your fathers as if the men that were before you could neither erre nor shed innocent blood Phi. What they could we dispute not wee say they did not Theo. That must be proued before you may propose their actes for your imitation Their doings may bee doubted disliked as well as yours so the labor is all one to iustifie theirs and yours Times and persons do not preiudice the truth of God It is permanent in all ages eminent aboue all things If your fathers disdained and pursued the truth as you doe they were enimies to God as you are notwithstaÌ„ding their earthly dignities and other excellencies which may seem precious in your eies but are abominable in the sight of God when men are voide of truth Phi. We are not Theo. Leaue then your fathers and other idle fansies go directly to that question For if her Maiestie receiued established nothing but the truth of Christ in her Parliament in vaine do you barke against God and the Magistrate for lacke of competent Courts ecclesiasticall iudges and legal meanes to debate and decide matters of religion When God commaundeth all humane barres and Lawes do cease If they ioyne with God they may bee vsed if they impugne the trueth they must be despised And yet in our case the scepter vnited and adioyned it selfe to the worde of God and therefore if Princes may commaund for truth in their owne dominions as I haue largely proued they may why should not the Prince hauing the full consent of her Nobles and Commons restoare and settle the truth of God within her Realme Phi. Lay men may not pronounce of faith Theo. But lay men may choose what faith they will professe and Princes may dispose of their kingdoms though Priests and Bishops would say nay Phi. Religion they may not dispose without a Councell Theo. Not if God commaund Phi. Howe shall they know what God commaundeth vnlesse they haue a councell Theo. This is childish wrangling I aske if God command whether the Prince shall refuse to obey till the clergie confirme the same Phi. You may be sure a wise and sober Clergie wil not dissent from Gods precepts Theo. What they will doe is out of our matter but in case they doe to which shall the Prince hearken to God or those that beare themselues for Priestes Phi. In case they do so you neede not doubt but God must be regarded and not men Theo. And hath the Prince sufficient authoritie to put that in â—â—e which God commaundeth though the Priests continue their wilfulnes Phi. There is no councell nor consent of men good against God Theo. Holde you there Then when christian Princes are instructed and resolued by learned and faithfull teachers what God requireth at their hands what neede they care for the backward dispositioÌ„ of such false Prophets as are turned from the truth and preach lies Phi. In England when her Maiestie came to the Crowne it was not so The Bishops that dissented were graue vertuous and honorable Pastours standing in defence of the catholike and auncient faith of their fathers Theo. You say so we say no. Phi. Those be but wordes Theo. You say very right and therefore the more to blame you that in both your bookes do plaie on that string with your Rhetoricall and Thrasonicall fluence and neuer enter any point or prooâ—e that may profit your Reader You presume your selues to haue such apparent right and rule ouer the faith ouer the church ouer christian Princes Realmes that without your consent they shall neither conclude nor consult what religion they will professe Their actes shall be disorders their lawes iniuries their correction tyranny if you mislike them This dominion and iurisdiction ouer all kingdoms and countries if your holy father and you may haue for the speaking you were not wise if you would not claime it but before we beleeue you you must bring some better ground of your title than such magnifical and maiesticall florishes The Prince and the Parliament you say had no power to determine or deliberate of those matters And why so You did dissent May not the Prince commaund for truth within her Realme except your consentes be first required and had May not her highnesse serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ without your liking Claime you that interest and prerogatiue that without you nothing shal be done in matters of religioÌ„ by the lawes of God or by the liberties of this realm By the lawes of the Land you haue no such priuilege Parliamentes haue bin kept by the king and his Barons the clergie wholy excluded and yet their actes and statutes good And when the Bishops were present their voices froÌ„ the conquest to this day were neuer negatiue By Gody law you haue nothing to do with making lawes for kingdoms and commonwealthes You may teach you may not command Perswasion is your part compulsion is the Princes If Princes imbrace the truth you must obey them If they pursue truth you must abide them By what authority then claime you this dominion ouer Princes that their lawes for religion shal be voide vnlesse you consent Phi. They be no iudges of faith Theo. No more are you It is lawfull for any Christian to reiect your doctrine if he perceiue it to be false though you teach it in your churches and pronounce it in your councels to be neuer so true Phi. That proueth not euery priuat mans opinion to be true The. Nor yet to be false the greater number is not euer a sure warrant for truth And Iudges of faith though Princes be not yet are they maintainers establishers and vpholders of faith with publike power positiue lawes which is the pointe you now withstand Phi. That they may doe when a councell is precedent to guide them Theo. What councell had Asa the king of Iudah when hee commaunded his people to doe according to the law and the commaundement and made a couenant that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God of Israell should be â—laine Phi. He had Azariah the Prophet Theo. One man is no Councel and he did but encourage and commend the King and that long after he had established religion in his realme What Councel had Ezechiah to lead him when he restored the true worship of God throughout his land and was faine to send for the Priestes and Leuites and to put them in minde of their duties What councell had Iosiah
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
Prince tooke part with God then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies and all your Apologies Defences Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ for that his faith came first into the worlde by the disordered rashnesse as they thought and tumultuous headinesse of the common people euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ himselfe and said of his followers Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees beleeue in him but this people that know not the law are cursed If your Bishops held the faith then had you wrong before God but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues their Landes and liuinges as they see cause and make choice of their religion and teachers though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour as you falsly and scornefully report Phi. Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie Theo. To call the Prince tyrant or heretike is no point of Religion but plaine rayling on powers which all christians are prohibited That law represseth the filthines of your tongues it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts it is no decision of heresie but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech which of duty you should forbeare and the Prince may iustly punish Phi. Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh Theo. If the speach be slaunderous or opprobrious why should it not He that curseth his father or mother shal dy the death by the law of God and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge nor speake euill of the ruler of the people yea saith Salomon Curse not the king no not in thy thought and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him â—â— his deserts Thou shalt not count him innocent for thou art wise and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with blood Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did Phi. The Princes person we will spare but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges Theo. If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded the Apostles preached the catholike church imbraced then let all our proceedings bee violent disordered and reprochfull but if we haue not then looke to your selues For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did Phi. If doth not hurt vs our faith is catholik Theo. No one point of your faith which we reiect is catholike And the reformation which is now setled by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion is warranted by the word of God and auncient iudgement of Christes church Phi. Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures the generall consent of the catholike church Theo. Proue that and we require no more Phi. Will that content you Theo. Yea verily But you were best beginning a fresh matter to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done Phi. My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off Theo. Your heart serueth you what soeuer your handfast doth Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde The end of the third part THE FOVRTH PART SHEWETH THE REFORMATION OF THIS Realme to be warranted by the word of God and the ancient faith of Christes Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to be nothing lesse than Catholikes Phi. WHAT one point of our religion is not catholike Theo. No one point of that which this Realme hath refused is truely catholike Your hauing and adoring of images in the church your publike seruice in a â—oung not vnderstood of the people your gazing on the Priest whiles he alone eateth drinketh at the Lordes table your barring the people from the Lordes cup your sacrificing the sonne of God to his father for the sinnes of the worlde your adoring the elementes of bread and wine with diuine honour in stead of Christ your seuen Sacramentes your Shrift your releasing soules out of Purgatorie by prayers and pardons your compelling Priestes to liue single your meritorious vowing and perfourming Pilgrimages your inuocation of Saincts departed your rules of perfection for Monkes and Friers your relying on the Pope as head of the church and Uicar generall vnto Christ these with infinite other superstitions in action and errors in doctrine wee deny to haue any foundation in the Scriptures or confirmation in the generall consent or vse of the catholike church Phi. We sticke not on your words which you vtter to your most aduantage but be not these things as we defend them and you reiect them Catholike The. Nothing lesse Phi. What count you catholike Theo. You were best define that it toucheth you neerest Phi I meane catholike as Vincentius doth that wrote more than 1100. yeares ago Theo. So do I. And in that sense no point of your religion which this Realme hath refused is catholike Phi. All. Theo. None Phi. These are but bragges Theo. Indeede they are so Nothing is more common in your mouthes than catholike and in your faith nothing lesse Phi. Who proueth that Theo. Your selues who after you haue made great sâ—urre for catholike catholike and all catholike when you come to issue you returne it with a non est inuentus Phi. Will you lie a litle Theo. I might vse that sometimes which is so often with you but in this I do not Phi. I say you do Theo. That will appeare if you take any of those points which I haue rehearsed Phi. Which you will Theo. Nay the choice shall be yours because the proofe must be yours Phi. Take them as they lie Hauing and worshipping of Images in the church is it not catholike Theo. It is not Phi. Eight hundred yeares agoe the generall councell of Nice the second decreed it lawfull and euer since it hath beene vsed Theo. Catholike should haue foure conditions by Vincentius rule this hath not one of them There can nothing be catholike vnlesse it be confirmed two wayes first by the authoritie of Gods law and next by the traditioÌ„ of the catholike Church not that the canon of the Scripture is not perfect sufficient enough for all pointes of faith but because many men drawe and stretch the Scriptures to their fansies therefore it is verie needefull that the line of the Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation should bee directed by the rule of the ecclâ—siasticall and catholike sense Now in the catholike Church her selfe we must take heede wee hold that which hath beene beleeued at all times in all places of all
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
likenes of his owne face and sent to king Abagarus as Damascene and Nicephorus witnesse Theoph. You may well sweare I will neither beleeue you nor Damascene Damascene sayth Fertur quaedam historia there is such a storie spread abroad but hee neither telleth by whom it was made nor of what credite it is and Eusebius that first tooke this storie of Abagarus and that at large out of the monuments of the Citie Edessa reporteth no such thing yea the Church of Rome her selfe some hundreths before Damascene repelled that Epistle of Christ to Abagarus then extant by name as Apocryphall And therfore you bolster an error and abuse the people of God with forgeries long before condemned though since receiued by Nicephorus and other fablers among the Grecians who wrate all they found without iudgement or without all shame fayned that they neuer found except it were in some wicked and witlesse legend such as your Church of late dayes had good stoare Philand And so the image of our Ladie made by Saint Luke you will say is a fable and yet Simeon Methaphrastes doeth confirme it Theoph. Leaue these late and obscure Lyars and bring some-what woorth the answering Philand Saint Basil sayth the painting and adoring of Images is a tradition of the Apostles and so doeth Damascene The woordes of S. Basil are Quam ob causam historias Imaginum illorum honoro palam adoro Hoc enim nobis traditum a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibendum sed in omnibus eccleâ—ijs nostris eorum historias erigimus For which cause I honour and openly adore the stories of their Images And this being deliuered vs from the Apostles is not prohibited but in all our Churches wee erect their histories Theoph. Can you turne vs to the place in Saint Basill Phi. The epistle is not extant but Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome whose credite is sufficient for a greater matter than this doeth alleage iâ—â—ut of his writings against Iulian the Apostata Theo. Adrian and you bâ—th shall pardon vs for beleeuing you when wee find no such woordes in all S. Basill Phi. They might be then in Saint Basil though they be not now Theo. If the woordes did agree with the spirit of Saint Basil or with the sâ—aâ—e of those tymes or with the rest of the fathers and auncient teachers in Christes Church wee woulde not so much dislike them though they were not found in Saint Basils woorkes but nowe seeing the woordes to be sensibly false if not vtterly wicked and to haue no conuenience with the doctrine of those that taught in the same time or neere about his age and knowing in the contention of the Grecians for images somewhat before Adrian what framing and â—â—ling of fathers there was to beare out either side wee thinke it easier for the Bishoppe of Rome to bee deceiued in a Greeke writer that liued 450. yeeres before him by some false reporter lewd translator or cunning forgeâ—er than for Basil to bee so great a straunger in the Church of Christ and so manifest a despiser of Gods precepts that hee would openly defend and himselfe vse adoration of Saintes Images without any scruple as deliuered from the Apostles who were farre from hauing farther from teaching the godly to worship the Images of Prophetes Apostles or Martyrs as this deluder dreameth And therefore either shewe vs the Epistle where this is written or else leaue loding the learned fathers names with such vnlearned corruptions Philand Were there not many thinges written by the Catholique Fathers that nowe are perished Theoph. And as many thinges forged in their names that were neuer written by them as appeareth in all their woorkes to this day by the iudgement of your very friendes Phil. This is the next way to call all their writinges and so the whole Christian sayth in question Theoph. You woulde faine haue vs swallowe your monkish impieties vnder the colour of their authorities but the wisedome of God hath better prouided for his church than so The rule of our fayth is the voyce of our Shepheard By that we iudge of the writings of all others be they fâ—ithâ—â—ll or Infidels If this were written in Basil wee would not receiue it vntill wee had tried it by that touchstone finding no such thing in all his woorkes why should wee regard it Philand There it was though nowe it bee not Theophi There it is not wheresoeuer it was and your alleager hath no suâ—h credite with vs that wee should trust him Philand Trust no man I praie you that is against you Theo. Wee trust not you to be your owne caruers Phi. This authoritie was alleaged and allowed to be S. Basils in a general Councell 800. yeres agoe Theo. That Councell was neuer receiued nor confessed to be general by the west Churches but reiected and condemned as a wicked coniuration against the faith and the letter there framed in Adrians name besides that it sauoreth altogether of your late forge at Rome is a pestilent and shamelesse depriuation both of fathers and Scriptures Phi. You bee very choice that can like nothing except it be exquisite The. You be worse than grosse if you take such palpable lies to be the fortresses of your faith Omit that fond and false report of Constantines leprosie purposing to bee washed in a bath of infants blood and dehorted from it in the night as hee slept by some that appeared to him whome hee afterwarde knewe to bee Peter and Paul by their Images which Siluester Bishoppe of Rome shewed him and that thereupon Constantine being first a persecuter of the Christians was conuerted and baptized by Syluester and beganne to buylde Churches and decked them with Images in euery place lewder and viler fables than which your legend hath none the rest of Adrians allegations out of the scriptures and Fathers what are they but open iniuries and mockeries of GOD and man The Scriptures which hee bringeth to proue the making and adoring of Images bee these God made man of the slime of the earth after his owne Image Adam of his owne free will called all the beastes of the fielde and foules of the ayre by their proper names Abel of his owne accord presented a sacrifice vnto God of the firstlings of his flocke Noe after the flood of his owne head buylt an altar vnto the Lorde and offered thereon So Abraham of himselfe erected an altar in the honour and glorie of God Iacob also when hee had in his sleepe seene the Angels of GOD ascending descending by the ladder after hee rose of his owne motion set vp a stone on the ground where his head lay and powred oyle on it and named the place Bethel and wee doe not reade that God for this cause was angrie with him Againe the same Iacob worshipped in the toppe of his staffe
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Your later allegation is grouÌ„ded on the former conuinceth your author to be but a yong father in respect of S. Basil. For where S. Basil died before Meletius your bastard Basil rehearseth Meletius as a Bishop of ancient memorie dead long before his time In super MeletiuÌ„ illuÌ„ admiranduÌ„ in eadeÌ„ fuisse sententia narrant qui cuÌ„ illo vixerunt Sed quid opus est vetera coÌ„memorare Immo nuÌ„c qui sunt Orientales Moreouer Meletius that admirable Bishop was of the same opinion as they that liued with him report But what neede I repeate auncient times The East Bishops which are at this day c. Now the true S. Basill not onely liued at the same time with Meletius but was made Deacon by him and wrate many letters to him and departed this life before him as the church storie witnesseth affirming that Helladius S. Basils successour and Meletius were both present at the second general councell at Constantinople vnder Theodosius and that must needes be when S. Basill was dead Phi. You did wel to discredit the place it were otherwise able to ouerthrowe all your new doctrine Theo. Then you do not well to build the antiquitie of your religion on this and such other apparent forgeries but were the places not forged they could do you no such seruice as you spake of in the question which we now handle yea rather they confirme that which we affirme that Things necessary to saluation are comprised in the Gospell Phi. Many traditions were receiued from the Apostles without writing which are not in the Gospel Theo. You must also proue those traditions to be necessary to saluation before you can conclude out of this place any thing against our assertioÌ„ Phi. As though the Apostles deliuered thinges which were not necessary to saluation Theo. The christian faith they deliuered in writing the rest they left vnwritten because those things which were no parts of faith were deliuered to the church of Christ for decency not for necessity Phi. For decency what a cauill that is Theo. The Traditions which your counterfet Basill here rehearseth as descending from the Apostles are no such deepe mysteries of religion as he pretendeth That the people should euery sunday and likewise betweene Easter and Whitsuntide pray standing is that any point of faith or help to saue their soules The words of inuocatioÌ„ at the Lords supper the praiers before after which the Greeke church vsed haue you not long since left them or to say the trueth did you euer accept them for catholike Singing with the crosse turning to the East thrise dipping him that is baptized and annointing him after with oyle bee these essentiall parts of Baptisme or rather externall Rites declaring the power and vertue of that Sacrament Your author himselfe will tell you they be not within the compasse of that faith which is common to all ChristiaÌ„s and must be rightly beleeued of all that will be saued For shewing the cause why they might not be written What things saith he such as were not baptized might not behold how could it be fit they should be publikely caried about in writing And againe The Apostles and fathers which prescribed certaine rites in the first beginning of the church reserued to these mysteries their dignitie by silence and secrecie For it is no mysterie which is open to the eares of the people and vulgar sort Now things necessary to saluatioÌ„ must openly be preached to the people and be fully conceiued of them and stedfastly proâ—essed by theÌ„ before they can be saued These things therefore be not of that sort but are rather excluded from necessitie because they were deliuered vnder secrecie Phi. But S. Basil or whosoeuer he be that wrote that booke saith vtraque parem vim habent ad pietatem Things vnwritten haue equal force to godlines with things written Theo. He saith not that all things vnwritten but vtraque both sortes haue like force to godlines not that dumbe ceremonies or outward gestures haue equall force with the word of God to lighten the minde conuert the soule and clense the heart it were arrogant blasphemie so to say but amongst things vnwritten he numbreth the praiers of the church proportioned by the word and hauing in them the very contents of the worde and also the Creede and profession of the faith it selfe whereby wee beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy ghost in truth godlinesse equiualent with the scriptures and in substaunce the very same that is witnessed by the scriptures Both these your Author in that place counteth for things vnwritten and these wee graunt haue equall force to godlinesse with those things that are written Phi. In effect they be all one with those things that are writteâ— Theo. That maketh his speâ—ch the truer which otherwise were absurd and vngodly Phi. Is it not a wâ—lie shift that sometimes you will admit no traditions and at other times when you bee hardly pressed fayth scriptures and all shall bee traditions with you Theo. Is it not a wilier that hauing framed to your selues a religion without the scriptures you woulde nowe fortifie the same by tradition against the scriptures But you may not so preuaile Wee haue the warrant of Saint Paul and the catholike consent of Christes Church that our faith shoulde depende on the word of God and since God speaketh not now but in his scriptures it is euident that our fayth in all pointes must bee directed and ruled by the scriptures Stand not brabling with vs about the worde Tradition which is very doubtfull and diuersely taken amongest the fathers Bring some faire and true demonstration for that which you holde as reason is you should to counterpâ—iâ—e so many proofes in a matter of such importance or else admit our assertion to be true Philand That wee can doe and yet not hurte our cause Theophil Wee knowe you can doe much You can bouldly call your selues catholikes though you bee vnshamefast heretikes and tell the people you teach nothing but antiquitie when the chiefest pointes of your religion bee meere nouelties and barbarous absurdityes Philand You can exemplifie a lye the best that euer I hearde Theophil Keepe that praise as proper to your selfe I will not disturbe your profession Touching the matter in question whether I speake ought that is vntrue let the reader iudge You will haue your religion and doctrine to bee Catholike that is confirmed by the Scriptures and professed in all places of all persons at all tymes euen from the first beginning wheresoeuer the Church of Christ hath beene receiued And when wee come to see the specialities wee finde you to swarue not onely from the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers but euen from those later ages and Churches which you woulde seeme to followe and to haue gotten you a religion of your owne without Councell Canon antiquitie or
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
spirit but I wil pray with the vnderstanding also I wil sing with the spirit but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Els when thou blessest with the spirit how shal he that occupieth the roume of the vnlearned say Amen at thy giuing of thaÌ„ks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest Thou verilie giuest thanks wel but the other is not edified I had rather in the Church to speak fiue words with mine vnderstanding thaâ— I might also instruct others thaÌ„ ten thousand words in an vnknown toung When ye come together let al things be done to edification If any man speake in an vnknowen tongue let one interprete but if there be no interpreter let him keep silence in the church God is not the author of confusion but of peace so I teach in al the Churches of the saintes If any man seeme to be a Prophet or to be spiritual let him vnderstand that the things which I write vnto you are the commaundemeÌ„ts of the Lord. Thus farre S. Paul which I rehearse at large that it may lie for the ground of the whole dispute that shall follow What answer you to this commaundement of God and doctrine of his Apostle Phi. No one place of scripture is more diuersly or easilie answered than this First you your traÌ„slatioÌ„s corrupt this chapter by putting your own words to y Apostles text For where he sayth toÌ„gue you ad strange vnknowen not vnderstood which are not in S. Paul SecoÌ„dly you misconster the whole passage of S. Paul for by edifying yâ— church vnderstanding the power of the voice he meaneth not y bare significatioÌ„ of yâ— words only but the increase of fayth true knowledge goodlife in that sense we say Our forefathers were as much edified with the latine seruice that is as wâ—se as faythful as deuout as fearful to breake Gods Lawes as likely to be saued as we are with all our tongues translations and English praiers Thirdly by strange tongues the Apostle meaneth not the Latin Greeke or Hebrew Fourthly that he speaketh not of the Churches seruice is proued by inuincible arguments Fifthly the Catholike people are taught the contents of their praiers and vnderstand euerie Ceremonie can behaue them selues accordingly Sixtly it is not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers Lastly the seruice hath been alwaies in Latin throughout the west Church And to dispute thereof as though it were not to be done since the whole Church doth practise obserue it throughout the wordle is most insolent madnes as S. Augustine saith in 118. epistle I sawe by your lookes you thought we could not answer it Theo. I knew you had stoare of answers such as they be but from such interpreters God defend vs and all that be his Phi. Speake to the matter let the men alone Theoph. Then to the matter this is a right paterne of your Rhemish annotations stuffed with impertinent allegations and impudent sophistications of purpose to defeate frustrate the scriptures that are against you Phi. You fall to railing when you faint in reasoning Theo. How can we but kindle wheÌ„ we see you fray the people of God from the sweete wholesom foode of their soules and delude them with your huskes and hogwash Phi. First discharge your selues of your shameful adding to the Scriptures and then you may the better examine our answers Theoph. To the text of the holie Ghost we adde not onely for the better conceauing of the sense in an other print we enterpose that speciall limitation of the word tongue which the drift of the whole chapter necessarily enforceth which the Apostle himself directly expresseth and the learned and ancieÌ„t fathers expounding this place doe euerywhere insert as the right construction of the scripture S. Paul did not speake either of tongues in generall or of such tongues as were knowen and well vnderstoode of the Corinthians nothing can be more absurd nor more against sense and nature thaÌ„ so to applie the Apostles reasons but of such tongues as were vnknowen and not vnderstood of the hearers and in that case his assertions are verie true and his illations very strong which otherwise are ridiculous if not monsterous For who well in his wits will make the Apostle speake so falsly and absurdly as to say He that speaketh a knowne tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God If I come to you speaking with knowne tongues what shall I profite you He that speaketh a knowne language edifieth but himselfe when thou blessest with the spirit and in a knowne tongue howe shall hee that is vnlearned say Amen These speaches haue neither ryme nor reason in them but turne them to the coÌ„trary and limit them to an vnknowne tongue and then they be very substantiall and sensible assertions And so S. Paul in that chapter very often expoundeth himselfe For these be his owne additions Howe shal it be vnderstoode what is spoken Except I knowe the power of the speach I shal bee barbarous to him that speaketh He knoweth not what thou saiest And citing a place of the Prophet Esay to confirme his intent he saith by men of other tongues and of other languages will I speake to this people What is an other tongue and another language but in manifest termes a strange tongue and a strange language Chrysostom and Ambrose commenting vpon this chapter deliuer S. Pauls minde in those very words which we do Si peregrina lingua gratias agas If thou giue thanks in a STRANGE tongue saith Chrysostome the common man can not answere Amen And speaking in S. Pauls person Linguas inutiles esse dico quantisper sint ignotae I say tongues are vnprofitable so long as they are VNKNOWNE Nam quae vtilitas ex voce non intellecta potest esse For what profit can there come by a speach that is NOT VNDERSTOOD Ambrose like wise Hoc est quod dicit qui loquitur incognita lingua Deo loquitur This is it the Apostle saith he that speaketh in AN VNKNOWNE TOVNG speaketh vnto God and not vnto men And againe Docere nemo poterit nisi intelligatur No man can instruct except he be vnderstood And therefore the Apostle warneth saith he that they should not seeme barbarous ech to other by AN VNKNOWN TOVNG Non competit fidelibus audire linguas quas non intelligunt sed infidelibus It is not for the faithful to heare tongues which they vnderstand not but for infidels Qui loquitur linqua subaudis incognita peregrina He that speaketh with a tongue thou must vnderstand saith Haymo an vnknowne and strange tongue And againe Si orem lingua subaudis incognita If I pray with a tongue to wit an vnknowne tongue the vnderstanding of my soule is without any profit because I vnderstand not what I speake And so S. Augustin disputing of this place saith Quia lingua id est membro
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
maners for that is his maine restriction and not euery custome which in time to come might or should happily bee newly deuised by some partes or members of the church but such as the whole church far neere without contradiction retained then when he spake as descending from the Apostles or Apostolike men And so the word hodie doth import though your Monkes haue left out the first syllable written die for hodie as the course of the sentence doth plainly declare If then to dispute whether the ancient custome of the vniuersall church may be altered be madnes yea most insolent madnes what degree of phrensie wil fal to your lot that erect desend a particular late growen custome against the plaine precept of God himselfe against the Apostles prescription against the generall ancient vsage of Christs church yea against the nature of man true intent of your own seruice which you would seeme to make most account of Phi. All this is vntrue Theo. Bethinke your selfe better and you shall finde it truer than you would wish Phi. Had euer any Nation their church-seruice in a barbarous tongue before our time Theo. Make you that such a wonder which your own friends confesse was so common in the primatiue church Lyra saith In primatiua ecclesia benedictiones caetera coīa or else leauing out the c which seemeth to be added by the negligence of the Printer oīa siebant in vulgari In the primatiue church blessings and al other or other common praiers were made in the vulgar toung which the people vnderstood Eckius saith Non negamus tamen Indis Australibus permissum vt in lingua sua rem diuinam facerent quod clerus eorum hodie obseruat We deny not but the south Indians were suffered in the primatiue church to haue their diuine seruice in their mother toung which is neither Greeke Hebrew nor Latine which also their clergy at this day obserueth An other of your friends saith of the Moscouits Totū sacrū seu Missa Gētili ac vernacula lingua apudillos peragi solet The whole seruice or masse is said with thē in their natiue mother toūg The epi. also the Gospel of the daie are read to the people with a loud voice out of the chācel for their better vnderstāding Pet. Belloni saith As many as are presēt with the priest singing masse Armenia answere him in the Armenian tongue For all that stand by vnderstand the Armenian tongue which the Priest vseth in his seruice Phi. These bee schismaticall and disordered Churches Theo. In deede they know no part of your holy Fathers religion nor dominion Yet are they Christians and neerer the truth by many degrees than the church of Rome It is no schisme to bee free from him to whom they were neuer subiect and some obseruances though they haue which are both superstitious and erronious yet that is no reason to dispraise them in that wherein they followe the example of the true and sincere church of Christ and retaine that custome which they receiued from the beginning Phi. Wee may dislike them for this aswell as you may for other thinges Theo. Whether you like them or no so they doe and so haue they doone euer since they were planted in Christ euen to this our age And this their constancie you can not dislike but you must also dislike the Apostle that first taught it the primatiue church that continued it and adiudged it to bee necessary yea your holy Father himselfe that not onely would permit it when he was requested but strictly commaunde it when it was not asked Cyrillus that conuerted the people of Russia and Morauia made request to the Bishop of Rome as Pope Pius the second reporteth that hee might vse the Sclauon tongue in saying diuine Seruice to them whom hee had baptized And when the matter came to bee handled in the sacred Senate or councell chamber a number contradicting it he saith there was heard a voice as it were from heauen speaking these wordes Let euerie spirite praise the Lord and euerie tongue confesse him and that vpon the hearing thereof Cyrillus had his petition The blindnes of your holy father and his Cardinals was reproued by a voice from heauen for hauing their Seruice in an vnknowen tongue and yet you beare men in hand to dislike the late custome of your Romish Synagogue or so much as to dispute thereof as if it were not to be done is insolent madnesse Innocentius though hee were the first that brought Transubstantiation Auricular confession and deposition of Princes to bee confirmed in open councell 1215. yeares after Christ yet durst he not binde the West church to the Latine seruice throughout as you doe but gaue streit charge rather to the contrary that such as were of diuerse languages shoulde haue the praiers and sacramentes of the church in their seuerall and sundry rites and tongues as appeareth in the councell of Lateran assembled vnder Innocentius the thirde of that name Because in many places within the same citie Diocese there be mingled people of diuerse toungs hauing vnder one faith sundry rites customes we straitly commaund that the Bishops of such cities Dioceses prouide fit men which may celebrate diuine seruice and minister the church Sacramēts vnto them according to the diuersities of their rites lāguages Phi. In diuerse toūgs he saith they shal haue their seruice but not in any barbarous tongue Theo. And he that saith they shal haue their seruice in diuerse tongues confesseth there were more tongues vsed in the West church than one and taking order that seruice should be said vnto them according to the diuersities of their tongues he saw some cause why the people should vnderstand what was said in the church and if that be needfull or expedient for one nation why not for other in like manner And yet I see no restraint in the wordes but that the Moscouites Morauians others were prouided for by this Canon to haue the church seruice in their proper and natiue tongue as well as the Grecians Phi. If it were so we account it lawful for that the church of Rome did permit it Theo. Then do we account our seruice in the English tongue much more lawful chiefly for that it is warrāted by the word of God as I haue shewed and secondly for that it wanteth not the generall vse and order of Christes church in her sincerest and purest state to confirme the same Phi. Haue you the generall and ancient custom of Christes church to insure your seruice in the english tongue Theo. Wee haue for that tongue which the people vnderstand be it English Scottish or what other speech you will Phi. That any Nation praied in a barbarous tongue you haue no president in the Primatiue church Theo. This is not the first time that your teeth could not rule your tongue The
Primatiue church of Christ vsed and allowed all tongues as well barbarous as learned for the people to make their praiers in Phi. You say not trueth Theo. If I doe you knowe your reward You must be catholikes of the second edition when men began to fall from trueth to Apostasie For with the right and ancient faith of Christs church your Romish errours haue no fellowship Phi. And what haue yours that were neuer heard of before Luthers time Theo. Howe chaunceth then our doctrine is confirmed by the scriptures and witnessed in all the Fathers where yours is not Phi. Not ours Theo. Not yours Your praying in a tongue not vnderstood of the hearers your single and solitarie Masses where no man eateth besides the Priest your decurted communions where wanteth one halfe of Christes institution I aske not howe you proue these points to bee catholike that would trouble your braines too much but what one Father haue you for them lest you seeme to deriue your religion you know not from whom Catholike should haue al the Fathers we demaund you but one If you come short of that what hope caÌ„ you haue to recouer the rest Phi. The doubt is not of our faith but of yours you must shewe by what title you claime your church which was in our possession before you were borne Theo. The walles you had for those we striue not The faith which is the fouÌ„dation of the church you neuer had for that wee stand Phi. But who standeth with you besides your selues Theo. I haue told you the word of God and cleare consent of that church which you dare not deny to bee both ancient and catholike Phi. First then where is your antiquitie for praying in a barbarous tongue Theo. That which I haue saide might seeme sufficient you bringing against it neither reason nor authoritie but onely Pilates that put Christ to death Phi. That the people did vnderstand the prayers which were made in the church you shew some proofe but those we say were in Hebrew Greeke or Latine Marie that the primatiue church permitted any Nation to make their praiers in a barbarous tongue for that as yet I see no proofe Theo. Reuiew that which is already sayd and you shall find that not onely the people did sing the Psalmes and answere the praiers that were made in the church but also they were taught it was a point of their christian dutie so to do and that neither the Priests voice was needefull nor the prayer publike except the whole multitude did both coÌ„ceiue the meaning and confirme the blessing of their Pastour and Reader which in a strange tongue they can not therefore the conclusion is infallible that in the Primatiue church no tongue was vsed but such as the people vnderstood and in a barbarous nation of necessitie that must be a barbarous tongue Phi. But wee require some testimonie that a barbarous tongue was vsed in prayer for it may be that all the nations in the worlde vnderstood Hebrewe Greeke or Latine else why did Pilate set the title on our Sauiours crosse in those three tongues but that al nations might read it and that they could not except they vnderstood one of those three tongues which I coniecture they did Theo. A coniecture fit for the cause you haue in hand Pilate did not set vp the title for all the men women and children in the world to see or read as you suppose but for those that were gathered out of all Countries to Ierusalem at the time of his execution and that strangers as well as Iewes might knowe the cause why Christ was adiudged to dy the superscription was writteÌ„ in Hebrew Greeke and Latine without the knowledge of one of the which tongues no stranger vsed to frequent those countries least he should be forced as dombe meÌ„ are to worke with signes which in trauellers or ligers that haue any busines is meere madnes without some interpreter Had all men vnderstood one of those three toungs as you imagine what needed the holy Ghost to haue bestowed any moe tongues on the Apostles when they were sent to preach to al nations but the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine for the whole worlde as you say spake and vnderstood those three You may do well to controle the holy Ghost and with your monsterous and false surmise to say the gift of moe tongues than these three was not needefull And where is then the diuision of toungs which God inflicted on the Sonnes of men if the whole earth had recouered her selfe to be of three tongues Or how could any Nation bee barbarous if ech coulde naturally speake some one of the learned tongues Yea why might not the ofspring of Adam haue gotten from three tongues to one with more easie and quicker speede than from an infinite variety of tongues to three and so frustrate the iudgement and wisedome of God in confounding their speech Philand I doe not auouch it for a certaintie Theophil Looke better vnto it and you will reiect it not onely for an impossibilitie but euen for an impiety And yet were you so absurdly and wickedly bent you hurt not our assertion For wee can proue that the primatiue church allowed and vsed praiers by precise â—ermes in barbarous tongues Origen saieth The Grecians name God in the Greeke tongue the Romanes in the Latine singulâ—item natiua vernacula lingua Deum precantur laudibus pro se quisque extollâ—t and euery Nation in their natiue and mother tongue make their praiers to God and yeeld him his due praises S. Hierom describing the solemne funerall of Paula that died at Bethleem in Iurie saith Hebraeo Graeco Latino Syróque sermone psalmi in ordine personabant non solum triduo donec sâ—bter Ecclesiam iuxta specum Domini conderetur sed per omnem hebdomadam The Psalmes were sung by order in the Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tongue not onely those three dayes til shee was laid in earth within the church and neere to the sepulchre of our Sauior but that whole weeke And least you should thinke this order of singing in diuerse tongues was vsed but once commending the very same place for the great concourse of Nations farre and neere thither resorting and there leading their liues he maketh Paula then aliue giue this report to Marcella Quicunque in Gallia fuerit primus huc properat diuisus ab orbe nostro Britannus si in religione processerit dimisso sole occiduo quaerit locum fama tantum Scripturarum relatione notum Quid referamus Armenios quid Persas quid Indiae quid Aethiopum populos ipsamque iuxta Aegyptum fertilem Monachorum Pontum Cappadociam Syriam Caelen Mesopotamiam cunctáque orientis examina Vox quidem dissona sed vna religio tot pene Psallentium Chori quot Gentium diuersitates Whosoeuer is the chiefest in Fraunce hither he hasteneth The Britane
tooke a stocke for their father and a stone for their maker They thought they worshipped God and not the Image Philand But wee bee sure that Christ made this to bee him-selfe when hee sayde this is my body Theo. He sayd I am the doore I am the vyne and yet neither doore nor vyne are really and personally the sonne of God Philand Hee spake those things in parables and by way of resemblance this he spake in plaine trueth without all figures and therefore this must bee substantially turned into Christ though that bee not Theoph. You make your reall and corporall presence a refuge for your erroneous and absurde assertions But if that bee false as well as the rest then are you plunged ouer head and eares in the myre and sinke of sinne and heresie Phi. If God bee not in heauen wee shall neuer come there but if hee bee wee can not misse our way For hath the whole Church thinke you lyen in sinne and heresie till your newe doctrine came lately from Geneua Theo. In deede I thinke this reason is euen as good as the most of those which your friendes haue freshly sent vs from Rhemes but abuse not your selues with such stately follies GOD may well bee in heauen and is no doubt and yet you neuer come there for refusing the right way thither Philand Wee goe the same way that the whole church since Christes time went before vs. Theoph. This pride so bewitcheth you that you can not see howe farre you bee fallen from the fayth of Christes Church which was in auncient and vncorrupted ages Philand As though wee did not ioyne with them in this and all other poyntes of Religion Theoph. You ioyne with them as darke-night doeth with day-light Philand Haue wee not their full consent for those thinges which you impugne Theoph. As namely for adoration of the sacrament where you pretend the whole Church and shewe not one man that euer taught of the Sacrament that It should bee adored Philand Was not the whole Church taught to say vnto It and crie vpon It Domine non suum dignus Lorde I am not woorthie Theo. Prooue that this or any other inuocation or adoration was vsed TO IT as you say and you shall goe free for all Phi. Origen ho. 5. in diuers When thou eatest sayth hee and drinkest the body and blood of our Lorde hee entereth vnder thy roofe Thou also therefore humbling thy selfe say Lord I am not woorthy So sayde S. Chrysostome in his Masse Theoph. This they were taught to say but to what were they taught to say it Philand To the Sacrament Theo. Who sayth so besides you Phi. Origen and Saint Chrysostome Theoph. Perhaps they taught the people that kinde of prayer when they did communicate at the Lordes Table but did they teach the people to say so to the Sacrament Philand Euen thus to crie VPON IT and thus to say VNTO IT Lorde I am not woorthie Theo. We would gladly heare that of their owne mouthes wee trust not yours Philand Looke the places and you shall find it to bee as wee say Theo. We haue viewed the places and find you to be Lyars Phi. Are not those Origens words which we rehearse Theo. Origen hath the words which you cite but he teacheth not the people to direct them to the Sacrament Philand To whome then Theoph. To whome but to christ the sonne of God Phi. And he is in the sacrament Theo. Their assertions not your additions are the thinges we aske for That these and all other partes of diuine honor are due to christ no christian maie doubt but that the same maie be directed and applied to the host that is your blasphemie no father â—uer taught it Origen discussing the Centurions fact and faith telleth his audience that Christ entereth vnder the roofes of all beleeuers two waies first by his ministers then by his mysteries Intrat nunc Dominus sub tectum Credentium duplici figura vel more The Lorde euen at this daie entereth the roofe of those that beleeue after two sortes or manners For when holie and acceptable pastours of the Church to GOD enter our howsen euen then and there the Lord entereth by them and be thou so affected as if thou receiuedst the Lorde himselfe An other waie is when thou receiuest that holy meate and eatest and drinkest the bodie and blood of the Lord for then the Lorde entereth thy roofe also Thou therefore humbling thy selfe imitate the Centurion and saie Lord I am not worthie that thou shouldest come vnder my roofe This must be said as well when the preacher entereth our house as when we receiue the sacrament for it is plaine by Origen that christ commeth vnder our roofe in both these cases and we are not worthie in either of them or in any other case that the sonne of God should come vnder our roofe As then it were madnes to deifie the Preacher because Christ voutsafeth to come in him and with him or to salute him with the diuine honour due to christ and to say to a mortall man Lord I am not worthy so can it be no lesse impietie to saie to the dead creatures in which or with which we receiue christ from his table Lord I am not worthie Phi. Doe you thinke that Christ is none otherwise in the Sacrament than he is in a mortall man Theo. He is more truelie reallie and naturallie in those men that be his members than he is in the elements that be vsed at his table Phi. O shamefull heresie Is anie mortall man transsubstantiated into Christ as the elements are by power of consecration Theo. That which I saie is most true men are the members of Christ bread is not Christ abideth in them and they in him in the breade he doeth not he will raise them in the last day the breade he will not they shall raigne with him for euer the breade shall not And therefore take backe your shamefull error of transsubstantiating the elements into christ since he is more really in vs than in the pixe or the chalice and yet we are not substantiallie conuerted into him Phi. I will neuer beleeue this whiles I haue a daie to liue Theo. Neither doe I meane in this place to enter that discourse yet for the confirmation of it I send you to Chrysostome Cyrill and Hilarie who will teach you so much in plaine wordes that christ is in vs reallie naturallie corporallie carnallie substantiallie which of the Sacrament you shall neuer be able to prooue For the sacrament is no part of his mysticall bodie as we are and therefore we are knit vnto him euen by the trueth of his and our nature flesh and substance as members of the same bodie to their head the Sacrament is not but onelie annexed as a signe to the heauenlie grace and vertue of Christ mightilie present and trulie entering the soule of euerie man that
here on earth though after an inuisible manner which wee take to bee vnder the formes of breade and wyne Theo. That Christ is present with vs here on earth wee firmely beleeue to our great comfort Where two or three sayth our Sauiour are gathered together in my name I am in the middest of them and againe Loâ— I am alway with you vntill the ende of the worlde but that hee is corporally present vnder the formes of bread and wine that is neither auouched by Chrysostome nor admitted by vs it is your vaine and fruitlesse fansie Phi. How can his body bee present but bodily Theo. These woordes of Chrysostom inferre not that Christes body is present but that Christ is present And since Christ consisteth of two natures the diuine may bee present though the humane bee not Christ absent sayth Austen is also present For vnlesse hee were present hee coulde not bee helde of vs our selues But because it is true that hee saith Lo I am with you for euer vnto the end of the world hee is both departed and yet here Hee is returned whence hee came and hath not yet forsaken vs. For his body hee hath caried into heauen but his diuine maiestie hee hath not taken from the world Neither is his diuine power onely present with vs but also wee haue his humane nature many wayes with vs in this worlde Habes Christum in praesenti in futuro In praesenti per fidem in praesenti per signum Christi in praesenti per Baptismatis Sacramentum in praesenti per altaris cibum potum Thou hast Christ sayth Austen in this worlde and in the next In this world by faith in this worlde by the signe of Christ in this world by the Sacrament of baptisme in this world by the meate and drinke of the altar By these things wee haue him in this worlde not really locally or corporally but truely comfortably and effectually so as our bodies soules and spirites bee sanctiâ—â—ed and preserued by him against the day of redemption when wee shall see him and enioye him face to face in that fulnesse and perfection which wee nowe are assured of by fayth and prepared for by cleanesse and meekenesse of the inward man The whole Church therefore neuer cried vppon the Sacrament Lorde I am not woorthy Lord beè mercifull to mee a sinner Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the worlde haue mercy on vs You doe sinnefully slaunder them they did exactly and precisely distinguish the corruptible creature from the eternal creator and taught all men to lift vp their hearts from the elements which were before their eyes to him that is in heauen and shall come from thence and from no place else to iudge the world Saint Austen wil haue the rude ones to be taught that the Sacraments are Signacula rerum diuinarâ—m visibilia sed res inuisibiles in eis honorari Visible scales of things diuine but the things visible to be honored in them And as if the case were so plaine that no man could well doubt thereof he saith Si ad ipsas res visibiles quibus Sacramenta tractantur animum conferamus quis nesciat eas esse corruptibiles Si autem ad id quod per illas agitur quis non videat non posse corrumpi If we looke to the visible things or elements by which the Sacraments are perfourmed who can be ignorant that they are corruptible But if we looke to that which is doone by them who doth not see that that can not bee corrupted Saint Ambrose saith Venisti ad Altare vidisti Sacramenta posita super Altare ipsam quidem miratus es creaturam Tamen creatura solemnis nota Thou camest to the Altar and sawest the Sacraments placed on the Altar and maruelledst at the very creature yet is it an vsuall and knowen creature Origen purposely creating what part of the Sacrament did sanctifie the receiuer saith Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur Nec materia panis sed super â—llum sermo est qui prodest non indigne Domino commedenti illum Haec de typico Symbolicoque corpore The meate which is sanctified at the Lords table by the word of God and praier as touching the materiall partes which it hath goeth into the belly and so forth by the priuie neither is the matter of bread it that profiteth the worthy receiuer but the worde rehearsed ouer it This I speake of the typicall and figuratiue body For this cause the great Councell of Nice directed the whole Church to lift vp their vnderstanding aboue the breade and wine which they sawe and by faith to conceiue the lambe of God slaine for the sinnes of men and proposed and exhibited on the Lordes table in those mysteries Their woordes bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let vs not baselie bend our mindes on the bread and cup that are set before our eyes at the Lordes Supper but lifting vp our thoughtes let vs by faith beholde on or in the sacred table the Lambe of God taking awaie the sinne of the worlde Which admonition the Church euer after obserued by crying vpon the people to lift vp their hartes not to the Sacramentes which they saw but from them to him that liued and raigned in heauen whome they adored in equall degree with the father and the holie Ghost and whome they behelde and touched with the eyes and handes of their faith but not with their corporall limmes or senses Quomodo in caelum mittam manum vt ibi sedentem teneam Mitte fidem tenuisti Howe shall I sende vp my hande to heauen to reach Christ sitting there Sende thy fayth sayth Austen and THOV HOLDEST HIM fast enough Fide Christus tangitur fide Christus videtur non corpore tangitur non oculis comprehenditur By fayth sayth Ambrose Christ is touched by fayth Christ is seene hee is not touched with our body not viewed with our eyes And therefore Chrysostome saith Hee must flie not to the Sacrament but on hie that will come to this body euen to heauen it selfe or rather aboue the heauens for where the body is there also will the Eagles bee Phi. The councell of Nice sayth The Lambe of God is on the sacred table where then did they seeke him or made they prayers vnto him but on the Altar Theo. They lifted vp their heartes to him that sate in heauen and from heauen looke downe vppon them and their prayers before they could please God were directed to the same place and person that their heartes were You must therefore either fasten their hearts and faiths to the Sacrament or suffer their prayers together with their affections to ascend to heauen where Christ sitteth at the right hande of God
and from whence we looke for our Sauiour euen the Lord Iesus Christ. Phi. All the places which are yet alleaged against you you haue shyfted off by referring the speaches to Christ him-selfe sitting in heauen and as you say not in the sacrament But Theodorets woordes are so cleare that no shift will â—erue Hee speaketh of the very mysticall signes and Sacraments which are seene with eyes and touched with handes and of them hee sayth Intelliguntur ea esse quae facta sunt creduntur adorantur vt quae illâ— sint quae creduntuâ— The Sacraments are vnderstood to be the things which they are made are beleeued and ADORED as being the same which they are beleeued Theo. Onely Theodoret of all the fathers that euer mentioned adoration spake of the Sacrament it selfe The rest direct their words to Christ raigning in glory not to the host or Chalice in the Priestes hande Hee in deede speaketh of the mysticall signes which the rest did not Philand Then yet there is one Father for the adoration of the Sacrament you sayde wee had none Theo. Woulde you prooue so high a point of Religion as this is to bee Catholike by one onely Father and such an one as you thinke not worthy to bee called a Saint Phi. These exceptions are but dilatorie and quite besides the matter Doe you graunt that hee sayth the mysticall signes must bee adored Theo. Hee sayth so Philand And such vpstarts as you are woulde bee credited against him when you say the Sacrament is not to bee adored Theoph. Wee reason not about our credite but about your conclusion Philand That is too plaine for your stoare Theo. Why doe you then conceale it so long Phi. You shall soone heare it and haue your belly full of it The mystical tokens bee adored sayth that auncient Father Theodorete Marke nowe howe nimbly we come within you ouerthrow you in plain field If you deny it we haue here antiquitie for it If you grant it then are you worse than miscreants for holding all this while against it Theo. With such weapons I thinke Alexander the great did conquere the worlde Phi. When you come to a non plus then you fall to idle talke But leaue digressing and giue vs a short and direct answere which wee knowe for your heartes you can not Theo. You knowe much but if you knewe your selues and your owne weakenes it were better Phi. Did I not tell you this place would ouerthrowe you Theo. Because hee sayth the substance of bread and wyne must be adored Phi. Hee sayth no such thing but the mysticall tokens must be adored And what are the mysticall tokens but the mysteries themselues which are all one with the Sacrament Theo. Can you take the top and the tayle and leaue out the myddle so cunningly Phi. Wee leaue out nothing Theo. Theodorets wordes are Neque enim sigra mystica post sanctificationem recedunt a sua natura Manent enâ—m in priore substantia figura forma videri taâ—gi possunt sicut prius Intelliguntur antem ea esse quae facta sunt creduâ—tur adorantur vt quae illa sint quae creduntur The mysticall signes after consecration doe not depart from their owne nature For they remaine in their former substaunce and figure and forme and may bee seene and touched as they were before but they are vnderstoode to bee those thinges which they are made and are beleeued AND ADORED as being the things which they are beleeued The mysticall signes not departing from their owne nature but remayning in their former substance are adored By this you may prooue if you bee so disposed that the creatures of bread and wyne must bee adoren which perhaps in your Church is no fault because it is so often But the Church of Christ abhorreth it as a wicked impietie to adore any dead or dumbe creature And therefore you must bee driuen as well as we to seeke for an other and farther meaning in Theodorete otherwise you will shake the foundation of your owne fayth with your owne antiquitie more than you shall doe ours Our answere is easie The mysticall signes hee sayth are adored but not with diuine honour and adoration with the Grecians as also with the Scriptures when it is applied to mortal men or creatures signifieth onely a reuerent regard of their places or vses Your owne Lawe sayth In hoc sensu possumus quamlibet rem sacram adorare id est reuerentiam exhibere In this sense wee may adore any sacred thing whatsoeuer that is giue it due reuerence So that you vtterly ouerthrowe both your adoration and your Transubstantiation when you brought Theodorete to tell vs that the substance of bread is adored that is reuerenced and yet remayneth after Consecration For if it remaine what adore you but the substance of a dead creature And that if you doe howe many steppes are you from open Idolatrie Thus though wee crake not of our conquests as you doe wee returne your authorities for adoring the sacrament as either impertinent or insufficient giue vs cause to consider that your worshipping it with diuine honour is no catholike or ancient veritie but a pernicious and wicked noueltie Phil. Is it wickednes to worship Christ Theop. You defile the name of Christ spoile him of his worship by giuing them both to senseles creatures Phi. How often shall we beate this into your dull heades that we giue this honour to the Sacrament and not to senseles creatures Theo. And howe often shall wee ring this into your deaffe eares that the Sacrament in corporall matter and substance is a senseles and corruptible creature Phi. Did not Christ saie this is my bodie Theo. You must prooue the speach to be literall as well as the wordes to be his Phi. Is not the letter plaine this is my bodie Theo. The letter is so plaine that it killeth the carnall interpreter and hath driuen you whiles you would needs refuse the figuratiue and spirituall constructions of Christs words to these absurdities and enormities which haue euen ouerwhelmed your Church Phi. Can you wish for plainer wordes than these this is my bodie Theo. I could wish that in expounding these wordes you did relie rather on the catholike fathers than on your vncatholike fansies Phi. All the fathers with one voice toyne with vs in this doctrine Theoph. You doe but dreame of a drie Summer Not one of the auncient fathers euer spake of your reall presence or the literall sense of these wordes on which you buyld the rest Phi. Will you haue a thousand places for that purpose or if varietie of writers do rather content you wil you haue three or four hundreth seuerall fathers all auncient and catholike in diuers ages and countries that shall depose for our doctrine in this point Theo. I can enter a course to saue you
after the manner of Sacramentes called the soule I can interprete this precept to consist of a signe or figure for the Lord did not sticke to say this is my bodie when hee gaue the signe of his bodie And speaking in Christes person he sayeth This bodie which you see you shal not eate neither shal you drinke the blood which they that crucifie me shall shed I haue commended a Sacrament vnto you that Sacrament spiritually vnderstood shal quicken you It is therefore as you hearde before out of the same Father a figure of speech commaunding vs to be partakers of the Lords passion For the Lord at his supper saith he commended and deliuered to his disciples the figure of his body and blood Cypriā The Lord at his last supper gaue bread and wine with his own hands on the crosse he gaue his body to be wounded by the souldiers handes that syncere truth secretly printed in his Apostles might teach the Nations how bread and wine were his flesh and blood and how the causes agreed with their effectes and different names and kindes might be reduced to one essence and the signes signifieng and the thinges signified might be called by the same names Origen There is in the very Gospell a letter that doth kill not onely in the old Testament is there a deadly letter found but in the new Testament there is a letter that doth kill him which doeth not spiritually conceiue the thinges that be spoken For if you take this saying except yee eate my flesh and drinke my blood according to the letter this letter killeth And againe Not the matter of bread but the word recited ouer it doth profit the worthy receiuer This I speake of the typical and figuratiue body Ambrose It was the true flesh of Christ that was crucified and buried this therefore is the Sacrament of that true fleshe The Lord Iesus himselfe sayth this is my body Before the blessing of these heauenly wordes it is called an other kind of thing after consecration the body of Christ is thereby signified In eating and drinking at the Lords table We signifie the body and blood of Christ that were offered for vs. The new Testament is confirmed by blood in a figure of which blood We reciue the mysticall cup. The priest in the church seruice faith Make this oblation ascribed reasonable and acceptable for vs which is the figure of the body and blood of our Lord Iesus Hierom When the Pascal lambe was eaten Iesus taketh bread which strengthneth the heart of man and goeth to the true sacrament of the passouer that as Melchisedec had done offering bread wine in a profiguratiō of him so he likewise might represent the truth of his body blood For Iesus tooke bread and giuing thankes brake it transfiguring his body into the breade Chrysostom This table hath he prepared for his seruants that hee might euery day for a similitude of the body and blood of Christ shew foorth in a Sacramēt vnto vs bread and wine after the maner of Meschisedec Before it be sanctified we cal it bread but the diuine grace once sanctifieng the same by the ministerie of the priest it is deliuered from the name of bread coūted worthy to be called the Lordes body though the nature of bread continew there still So that in the sanctified vessel there is not the true body of Christ but a mystery of his body is there contained Nazianzene Let vs bee partakers of the passeouer figuratiuely notwithstanding as yet though this Passeouer bee more manifest than the former Theodoret. Our Sauiour in deed changed the names called his bodie by the name of the signe and the signe by the name of his body The reason whereof is manifest to those that are acquainted with the diuine mysteries He would haue the receiuers of these heauenly mysteries not looke to the nature of the things which are seen but hearing the alteration of names beleeue the chāge which is there made by grace For he that called his natural body wheat bread named himself a vine the same Lord honored the signes elements of bread wine which we see with the name of his body blood not changing the nature of the signes but casting grace vnto nature Prosper The diuine breade which is the flesh of Christ is after a sort called the body of Christ being in deed but the sacramēt of Christs bodie Which words your own law thus expoundeth The diuine bread which truly representeth the flesh of Christ is called the body of Christ but improperly wherfore it is said after a sort which is non rei veritate sed significante mysterio not in exactnes of truth but in a mysterie of signification So that this is the meaning it is called the body of Christ that is the body of Christ is thereby signified Bede The solemnities of the old Passeouer being ended Christ commeth to the newe which the church is desirous to continue in remembrance of her redemption that in steede of the flesh and blood of a lamb he substituting the sacrament or sacred signe of his flesh and blood in the figure of bread and wine might shew himselfe to be the same to whome the Lord sware and will not repent thou art a Priest after the order of Melchisedec Druthmarus The Lord gaue his disciples the sacrament of his body for the remission of sinnes that being mindfull of his deede they might alwaies in a figure do that which he was to do for thē not forget his loue This is my body that is in a sacrament Wine maketh glad increaseth blood and for that cause the blood of Chirst is aptly figured thereby Bertram That bread wine is figuratiuely the body and blood of christ the maner thereof is in a figure representation in mysterio non veritate in a mysterie not in truth plaine speech Phi. You thinke to winne the spurres but you may chance to loose bootes and all These places which you bring haue a shew before the simple but there is no pith nor substance in them and with one puffe wee can blowe them all away Theo. It must be such a puffe then as wherwith you first blew away christ and his gospel and brought in your own decrees to ouerrule both God and man with the breath of your mouthes Phi. You scoffe my meaning is that I can crosse them all with one answere Theo. If they were sprites you might driue them away with crossing but being ancient and godly fathers they will tell on their tales to your reproofe crosse you what you will or can in their wayes Phi. I will not crosse it in their way but in yours Theo. When you will wherefore serue my feete but to tosse it out of the way or at lest to step ouer it that it hinder not
peruert the meaning of Leo and if you did but vnderstand the right course of his reason you would suppresse both his voice and your vaunt for verie shame Phi. He that will trust your sayings shall haue manie false fiers when he should not Theo. And he that will credit your doings shall feele manie quick flames when he would not Phi. You be better at quipping than at answering Theo. You are lothe we should encroch on your common But returne to Leo. Can you tell against whome he wrote Phi. Against such as you are that denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Were they men without names or names without men Phi. Mock not they were your auncetours Theo. They say it is a wise childe that knoweth his owne father Doe you But in sadnes whome did Leo traduce in that sermon Phil. Mary Eutiches and such like heretikes Theoph. You saie well for Leo nameth him but a litle before in that sermon and against his opinion he reasoneth Philand I am content with that Theoph. What was his error Phi. He denied the trueth of Christes bodie and blood in the Sacrament Theo. Who told you so Phi. I gather it by those that refute him Theo. By them you shall learne his error but this it was not Philan. What was it say you Theo. Eutiches affirmed that Christes humane nature and substance was not onely glorified by his ascension but consumed and turned into the nature immensitie of his Godhead Against him wrate Theodorete Gelasius and others and one of the cheefest argumentes which they bring against him is that which Leo here toucheth in a woorde or two Phi. That argument cleane confoundeth your sacramentarie Sect. Theo. Yours or ours it must needes confound for this it is As the bread and wine after consecration are changed and altered into the bodie and bloud of Christ so is the humane nature of Christ conuerted into his diuine after his resurrection ascension but the bread and wine are not changed neither in substance nor forme nor figure nor naturall proprieties but only in grace and working ergo Christs humane nature is not changed into his diuine EITHER IN SVBSTANCE circumscription or forme but only endewed with glory and immortalitie Phi. This is no Catholike reason but sauoreth altogether of your hereticall poison Theo. They which first framed and vrged this reason against Eutiches in your opinion were they heretikes Phi. No father euer vsed it Theo. If they did must not they be doubbed for heretikes as the first proposers of that reason or at least you for affirming now the quite contrarie For you reiect both their assumption conclusion against Eutiches as starke false and whose ancetour then is Eutiches but yours Phi. They do not vse it as you report it Theo. Looke you offspring of Eutiches whether Gelasius Theodoret and Augustine do not vrge it in those verie pointes and wordes which I repeate Thus Gelasius framed his reason against Eutiches An image or similitude of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries It is therefore apparant and euident enough that we must holde the same opinion of Christ the Lord which we professe celebrate and receiue in his image That as those signes by the working of the holy Ghost passe into the diuine substance and yet remaine in the proprietie of their owne nature Euen so that verie principall mysterie it selfe whose force truth that Image assuredly representeth doth demonstrate one whole and true Christ to continue the two natures of which he consisteth properlie remaining And lest you should not vnderstand what he ment by this The signes still abide in the proprietie of their owne nature he expoundeth himselfe an saith Non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini The substance or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not or perisheth not When Theodoret had made an entrance to the very same reason by laying this foundation Oportet archetypum Imaginis esse exemplar the Originall must be answerable to the Image the heretike caught the words out of his mouth and said It hapned in good time that you did mention the diuine mysteries for euen thereby will I prooue the Lordes bodie to be chaunged into an other nature As then the signes of the Lordes bodie and blood are other thinges before the inuocation of the Priest but after they are chaunged and become other than that they were so the Lords bodie after his assumption is chaunged into his diuine substance The maior being good such as Gelasius and Theoderet did both auouch that as the signes were changed after consecration so was Christes humanitie after his assumption if your opinion had then beene taught in the church that the substance of bread and wine were changed by consecration the conclusion had beene infallible for Eutiches error that the substance of Christes humanitie had beene changed by his ascention into his diuinitie and not only both these Fathers had had their mouthes stopped but Eutiches error had beene inâ—olâ—ble as beeing grounded on a Maior that was a confessed and famous trueth and on a Minor that was as you thinke the vndoubted saith of the Church Mary the Minor in deed was apparantly false though you now defend it for Catholike Doctrine and with the plaine deniall of that as a manifest vntrueth Theodoret inferreth the contrarye that because neither the Substance nor naturall proprieties of the bread and wine are chaunged by consecration as the whole Church then beleeued and confessed therefore neither the substance nor shape nor circumscription of Chrisâ—es humane nature were changed by his ascention but his body remaineth in the â—ame substance quantitie and forme that he rose from death and ascended vp withall and with the very same forme and substance of flesh shall come to iudge the worlde These are his wordes Thou art caught saith Theodoret to the heretike with the same nets that thou laiedst for others The mysticall signes after sanctification doe not depart from their own nature For they remanie in their former substance and figure and forme c. Conferre then the Image with the originall and thou shalt see the likenes betweene them For the figure must be like to the trueth That body therefore of christ in heauen hath his former shape and figure circumscription to speake al at once his former substance Lay all your heades together aâ—d graunting the Maior which the whole Church held auoide the conclusion of Eutiches withâ—ut the denying the Minor as Theodoret did which yet is your faith and beleefe at this day and we wil grant you to be Catholiks and our selues heretikes If you cannot see how far you be falleÌ„ from the doctrine of Christs church and that in no lesse point than the greatest and chieâ—esâ— Sacrament on which you haue wickedly founded your adoration oblation halfe communion priuate masse and barbarous prayers without
example without warrant of God or man Phi. Theodoret hath set you vppe in your Ruffe but I would you knew it in this case we care neither for Theodoret nor you if that were his opinion as it is yours Theo. And who hath put you into your ruffe that you not only despise that learned and auncient Bishoppe but the whole Church in him which then so beleeued and you cannot auoide at this day except you will bee Eutichians Phi. The Maior is not altogether so sâ—und as you thinke it Theo. Yet did Gelasius and Theodoret confound that error with that comparison and S. Augustine long before thâ—m did vrge the same This is it that wee say this is it that by all meanes we labour to confirme to witte that the Sacrifice of the Church consisteth of two things the visible kinde of elementes and the inuisible flesh and bloud of our Lord Iesus Christ the Sacrament and the thing of the SACRAMENT euen as the person of Christ consisteth of God and man for so much as euery thing containeth the nature and trueth of those things of which it consisteth By which rule it is certaine there musâ— be in the sacrament the nature truâ—th and substance of bread and wine euen as in Christes person either nature hath his trueth and substance without confusion or distraction Phi. We haue fathers to the contrary if the time did serue to produce them as anon I will In the meane while what is this to Leo Theophil Leo in few words abbridgeth the sumâ— of this reason and saith the followers of Eutiches doe in vaine with their mouthes receâ—ne the Sacrament since with their hartes they doe not beleeue the tâ—ueth of Christs humane nature and answer AmeÌ„ to no purpose so long as they dispute against that which they would seâ—m to enioye by receiuing the seale and pledge thereof in the church with others Phi. This is your Commentarie besâ—des the text his wordes are The selfe same bodie which wee beleeue with faith is receiued with mouth Which you cannot interprete to be mâ—ant of the bread For the breade is not beleeued with hart and against the trueth of Christs bodie not against the bread did the followers of Eutiches dispute Theo. Doth Leo â—aie the selâ— same bodie Phi. He saith Hoc ore sumitur quod fide creditur that is receiued with the mouth which with our faith is beleeued and that cannot be the bread The. Much lesse maie it be the natural bodie of Christ. For then Leo had mightilie confirmed not confuted Eutiches opinion His error was that the humanitie of christ after his ascension was swallowed vp of his diuinitie and so changed that it was now no naturall bodie Against this if Leo should haue opposâ—d your reall presence in the Sacrament where Christs body is without quantity shape circumscription distinction of partes and all other conditions of a naturall body he had beene a Proctour â—or Eutiches impiety not a confuter of it Neither could Eutiches himsâ—lfe haue wished a better defence for his heresie than the confessâ—on â—f such a bodâ—e as you imagine in the sacrament and therfore you haâ—k that HOC ilfauouredly when you make Leo rather a consenter with Eutiches than a disprouer of him with your fantasticall presence which is an approbation and no refutation of Eutiches error Phil. What a slander this is that the reall presence should be a refuge for Eutichâ—s error Theoph. Such a slaunder as with all your cunning you shall neuer wipe awaie Phi. Doe we not affirme the substance of Chrisâ—es humane flesh to be in the Sacrament The. Such a substance as Eutiches him selfe imagined hauing neither proportion of shape nor position of parts nor repletion of place nor anie condition incident to a naturall bodie but the godly fathers were farre from vrging such a substance against Eutiches They pressed him with the bodilie shape circumscription extension and perfeâ—â—ion of Christes flesh as well in all other requisites as in substance and to prooue this amongst other arguments they brought as I haue shewed the Sacrament for a resemblance and demonstrance of both natures in Chrisâ— that as the bread after consecration keepeth his quantity quality shape and substance notwithstanding it be vnited and annexed to the heauenly grace that worketh in the sacrament so the bodie of Christ after his assumption retaineth his former perfection proportion figure and substance loosing no poinâ—â— nor part of his humane nature but only replenished with immortall glorie This must be Leoes Hoc if he will do any good with alleaging the Sacrament against Eutiches as I haue proued by Austen Gelasius and Theodoret Otherwise if he do but mention your real presence he openeth the gappe and leuelleth the way to Eutiches furie and runneth headlong against the rest of his fellow seruants and successours that vsed the same argument to confute Euâ—iches with a manifest contradiction of your reall presence Phi. I bring you Leoes wordes Theo. Leoes wordes haue nothing in them to crosse that sense which I establish Hoc signifieth any thing and hath no relation to Christes flesh in the sacrament but to the proportion rather betweene Christ the sacrament in that they beleeued no other thing of Christ than they saw with their eyes receiued with their mouths in the Sacrament to wit the perfect shape substance of bread after Consecration consequently they must holde the same opinion of Christs humanitie after his ascension Phi. If you vse this trade you may peruert all the fathers writings and make what sense you list to their sayings Theo. Peruert them no more than we doe and you shall neuer euert the maine doctrine as you haue doone We measure â—heir wordes by their owne warrant and suffer nâ—t a phrase here and there which may bee well reuoked to their rules to vndermine the chiefe grouâ—des of their faith Phi. No more doe we Theo. Why then rage you to heare vâ— say that these few places which you haue brought for eating christs bodie with your mouthes and iawes may be referred to the signes called by those names as well as to the things themselues Phi. You take vpon you to bee Iudges and to pronounce at your pleasures when the wordâ—s shall belong to the one and when to the other so that no father shall say any thing against your heresie but yet will by and by turne it and wind it I knowe not whither Theo. Nothing more hindereth the search for trueth than a desire to lye We shew you the general admonition of the fathers themselues that after consecration they call the visible signes no longer by their woonted names but by the names of those things whose signes they are and whose vertues they haue This Rule we say is then to take place when the speach which we find in a father if it should be referred to the things themselues would be both absurd and repugnant to
which I will giue is my fleshe giuen for the life of the world Hee that eateth mee shall liue through mee hee abideth in mee and I in him I am the liuing bread which came downe from heauen if any man eate of this bread hee shall liue for euer Most delightful bread heale thou the tast of my heart that I may feele the sweetenesse of thy loue Let mine heart eate thee and with thy present relesse let the bowels of my soule bee replenished Angels eate thee with full mouth let man that is a pilgrime on earth eate thee as his weakenesse will suffer him that hee faint not in the way hauing this prouision for his iourney Holy bread liuing bread beautifull bread which camest from heauen and giuest life to the worlde come into my heart and clense mee from all filth of flesh and spirit Enter into my soule heale and sanctifie me within and without No man earnester in this point than S. Austen This visible bread confirmeth the stomack confirmeth the bellie There is an other bread which confirmeth the hart because it is the bread of the hart There is a wine that doth rightly cheere the hart can do nothing but cheere the hart Therfore vnderstand so of the bread as thou doest of the wine inwardly hūger inwardly thirst blessed are they which hunger thirst after righteousnes for they shal be satisfied That breade is righteousnes that wine is righteousnesse is trueth and Christ is the trueth I am saieth hee the liuing bread which came from heauen and I am the vine you are but braunches To beleeue in him this is to eate the liuing bread hee that beleeueth eateth Man is inuisibly fedde because hee is inuisibly regenerated He is inwardly in soule a babe inwardly in minde renewed Looke in what part man is newe borne in that part is hee fedde The vnbeleeuing Iewes were farre from this heauenly breade neither knewe they howe to hunger for it the iawes of their hearts were dull and this bread requireth the hunger of the inward man Take heed brethren eate you this heauenly bread spiritually bring innocencie to the altar Eate life and drinke life For then is the bodie and blood of the Lord life to each man when that which is visiblie taken in the Sacrament is in very trueth spiritually eaten spiritually drunken When Christ is eaten life is eaten neither when wee eate him doe wee make peeces of him In deede in the Sacrament it is so and the faithfull knowe howe they eate the fleshe of Christ euerie man taketh his peece Wherefore grace it selfe is termed peeces Christ is eaten by peeces in the sacrament and yet hee remaineth whole in heauen hee remayneth whole in thine heart Prouide not your iawes but your heart Thence is this Supper commended Beholde wee beleeue in Christ wee receiue him with our fayth In taking wee know what wee should thinke wee take him but a litle and our heart is replenished Macarius In the church is offered breade and wine the samplar of his body and blood and they which are partakers of the visible breade doe spiritually eate the Lordes fleshe Emissenus When thou goest vppe to the reuerende Altar to bee filled with spirituall meats by fayth beholde honour and wonder at the sacred bodie and bloode of thy God touch it with thy mynde take it with the hand of thyne heart and chiefely prouide that the inwarde manne swallowe the whole This Doctrine continued eight hundreth yeares after Christ. Bertram then liuing is witnesse sufficient The bodie and blood of Christ if thou consider the outward appearance is a creature subiect to mutation and corruption but if thou waigh the vertue of the mysterie it is life performing immortalitie to those that receiue it As touching the visible creature the mysteries feed the body but by the vertue of a mightier substance they feede sanctify the soules of the faithful What we should eat what we should drinke the holy Ghost expresseth by the Prophet Tast and see howe sweete the Lord is Doeth that breade corporally tasted or that wine sipped shewe howe sweete the Lorde is whatsoeuer tast that hath it is corporall and pleaseth the iawes Hee doeth therefore inuite vs to vse the relesse of our spirituall tast in that breade and drinke to dreame of no corporall thing but to conceiue all to bee spirituall This meate confirmeth our heart and this drinke cheereth the heart of man sayeth the Prophet By the which it is euident that nothing in this meate nothing in this drinke must bee corporally taken but the whole spirituallie considered For the soule which is ment by mans heart in this place is not fedde with corporall meate or drinke but is refreshed and nourished with the worde of God Faith beleeueth that which is not seene and spiritually feedeeth the soule and cheereth the heart and giueth eternall life whiles wee marke not that which feedeth the bodie not that which is pressed with teeth not that which is brused in peeces but that which is spiritually taken with faith For this is a spirituall foode and a spirituall drinke spiritually feeding the soule Paschasius commeth after Bertram in age but ioyneth with him in the same confession of trueth The diuine mysteries our inwarde man receiueth through the grace of Christ with vnderstanding and by them is hee made one bodie with Christ through the power of faith The fleshe and blood of Christ because they bee thinges spirituall are fullie receiued by fayth and vnderstanding It is not lawfull to eate Christ with teeth Christ is the meate of Angels and this Sacrament is truely his fleshe and his blood which fleshe and blood man eateth and drinketh spirituallie And so by what food the Angels liue by that also man liueth because in this that man receiueth all is diuine and spirituall Wee drinke spiritually and wee eate the spirituall flesh of Christ in which is beleeued to bee eternall life All that wee eate is spirituall The power of faith and vnderstanding which doubteth nothing of Christ doeth tast and relesse the whole spiritually Otherwise but for faith and vnderstanding what finde they which tast these thinges besides breade and wine The visible quantitie must not bee esteemed in this mysterie but the power of the spirituall Sacrament Wee must not respect howe much of the quantitie is pressed with our teeth but how much is receiued through faith and loue Therefore my sonne when thou commest to the participation of this mysterie OPEN THE BOSOM OF THY MINDE cleanse thy conscience and receiue thou not what a morsell containeth but AS MVCH AS THY FAITH APPREHENDETH Fulbertus a thousand yeres after Christ treadeth the same path That which appeared outwardly to be the substance of breade and wine is nowe made the bodie and blood
Friers vnder the names of ancient and learnâ—â— Fathers Phi. Whatsoeuer he was ancient he was and taught the same doctrine without all question which we doe Theo. His antiquitie you know not and his doctrine you vnderstand not For though we like not your shuffling and exchanging of names with the fathers and broaching your fancies and heresies vnder their 〈…〉 this whâ—le sermon we can and doe admitte as hauing nothing either dissident from true antiquitie or repugnant to that which we teach Phi. Will you say that doctrine of his is not repugnant to yours Theo. Why should I not Phi. Wil you confesse that the visible creatures are turned into the substance of christs flesh by the secret power of his word The. His words I say make nothing for your abolishing the substance of bread and wine and leauing the accidents Phi. He saith the visible creatures are turned into the substance of Christs body and bloud Theo. But he saith not the substance of the visible creatures is turned into the substance of christs flesh Phi. How can one creature bee turned into the substance of an other but by loosing his former substance Theo. In natural mutations it is so but this is nothing lesse than natural Phi. It is diuine and supernaturall Theo. And so is it likewise spirituall and mysticall not really changing the matter and substance of the elements but casting grace vnto nature Phi. Nay he saith the substance of the creatures is changed Theo. Where saith he so Phi. He saith which is al one that the visible creatures are changed into the substance of christs body The. But by no material nor corporal change Phi. How can the creatures be turned into christs substaÌ„ce but by a material corporal change Theo. That is your error not your authors addition Phi. It is not possible to be otherwise Theo. What if your own writer in this very case and place reproue you for a liar Phi. That earthly creatures shoulde be turned into Christs substance without a materiall and substantiall change Neuer say it it cannot be Theo. Will you looke but two lines farther and you shall see this great impossibilitie auouched by your own author Quomodo tibi nouum impossibile esse non debeat quod in Christi substantiam terrena mortalia conuertuntur te ipsum qui in Christo es regeneratus interroga How this to thee should neither be strange nor impossible that mortal earthly creatures are turned into Christs substance aske thy selfe which art regenerated in Christ. Somtimes since thou wast farre from life excluded from mercie and banished from the path of saluation as being inwardly dead suddenly initiated by the lawes of christ renued by the healthfull mysteries thou didst passe into the body of the church not by sight but by faith thou which wert the sonne of perdition obtainedst to be made the adopted child of god by a secret puritie remaining in the same visible measure thou grewest inuisibly without increase of quantitie being thy self the very same that thou wast before in processe of faith thou becamest another in the outward man nothing was added al changed in the inward Taking this spiritual immaterial change of euery christiaÌ„ in baptism to shew in what sort how he ment that mortal earthly creatures by consâ—â—ration are conuerted into the substance of christ which is far froÌ„ a corporal substantial change such as you would vrge by preteÌ„ce of his words in yâ— creatures of bread wine Phi. This construction cannot stand that creatures should be turned into an other substance and yet remaine in their owne and former substance For then how are they chaunged Theo. In your physical conceits it cannot but if you consult those Fathers that were the first introducers of this speeche you shall finde it may Gelasius ioyneth them both together in one sentence the one to expound the other In diuinam transeunt spiritu sancto perficiente substantiam permanent tamen in suae proprietate naturae The sacraments of the bodie and blood of Christ passe into a diuine substance by the working of the holie Ghost and yet remaine in the proprietie of their owne nature And lest you shoulde cauell that they kept their former qualities and not their substance in expresse woordes he saith tamen non desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini and yet for all they passe into a diuine substance the former substance or nature of bread and wine ceaseth not nor is abolished no more than the manhood of Christ was chaunged from his former substance when after his ascension it was replenished with diuine glorie Phi. You frustrate the sayings of the fathers with your comparisons Theo. They be their owne comparisons principal intentions in those places where they speake these wordes and therefore if you will rack the one to your length and not respect the other you may soone force some phrases to feede your fansies But this is not the safest way for you to walke in matters of faith nor the rightest course for you to take to come by their meaning You must looke how far they presse their own words what they would conclude not what you lâ—st to conceiue or imagine of their speaches Howsoeuer they mention a change of the bread into the diuine essence substance no father auoucheth any corporal material or substantial change of the elements into the bodie blood of Christ but a spirituall mystical and effectual annexing vniting the one to the other either paâ—t retaining the trueth of his former and proper nature and substance This is apparent by those very places sentences which you bring to prooue a chaunge the fathers teach not the one without the other as you saw for eâ—ample in Gelasius and your Eusebius and so in Cyprian Panis iste quem dominus discipulis porrigebat non effigie sed natura mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro This bread which the Lord gaue to his disciples chaunged not in shape but in nature by the omnipotencie of the word is made flesh and lest you should dreame of any materiall or substantiall chaunge as your manner is the verie next wordes in the same sentence are Et sicut in persona Christi humanitas videbatur latebat diuinitas ita sacramento visibili ineffabiliter diuina se infundit essentia and as in the person of Christ his humanitie was seene his diuinitie was hidde and secret so in the visible sacrament the diuine essence doth infuse it selfe after an vnspeakeable manner Phi. Did you bring this place for vs or against vs you could not haue lighted on a fitter for our purpose if you shuld haue sought these seuen yeares The. I knowe it is one of your best authorities as you make your account and yet it is no way preiudiciall to vs if
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
not supreme ouer them Atha sought to the west Emperour and to al the west Bishops that his cause might be heard in a Councel Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Athanasius cause intimated to al the west Bishops Iulius had the consent of both parts that a councel should be called Athanas. eadem Apolog. Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 11. Episto Iulij ad eos qui ex Antiochia scripserunt citatur ab Athanasio Apologia 2. Iulius pretendeth not Peters keyes for his authority This spirit differeth much from the late spirit of Rome Idem in Epist. Iudij Athana Apologia 2. Athana heard and restored by a councel The councel willed Iulius to write in his own name because the Arrians wrate to him and not to them Idem in Epist. Iulij Iulius claimeth an equalitie with the East Bishops no supremacie ouer them Ibidem in Episto Iulij They should haue written to all the west Bishops not to the Bishop of Rome alone Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 15. Idem lib. 3. Cap. 17. In Epist. Iulij By reason his place was first and after to the rest Sozomen lib. 3. Cap. 10. In weightie matters the consent of al the Patriarks was to be required In Epistola Iulij Socrat. lib. 2. Cap. 17. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. The deposition of Athanasius a matter of great weight Euseb. lib. 7. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 7. The Arrians sought by deposing him to posses the East Church Iulius when he coulde doe no good in Athanasius cause besought the west Emperor to put to his helping hand Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 10. Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 11. Athanasius with teares requesteth a councel of the west Emperour Theodoret. lib. 2. Cap. 4. Socra lib. 2. Cap. 20. The Emperours letters for Athanasius restitution Ambros. de incarnatio Domin sacrament Cap. 5. Cyprian sermo 5. de lapsâ— What Chrysostome requested of Innocentius The Bishops of the west Church were to consent before the sentence could be giuen Chrysost. Episto 1. ad Innocent tomo 5. Chrysost. vt supra Eadem episto ad Innocentium Chrysost. maketh this petition to all the west Bishops Ibidem A verbe of the singular number thrust in among verbes of the plural to claw the Bishop of Rome Theodores lib. 5. Cap. 34. A bul absurdly forged to make men beleeue the Pope did excoÌ„municate the Emperour for Chrysost. banishment Nicepho lib. 13. Cap. 34. Cronologia Canisij The Bull proued to be forged Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The first yere of Chrysost banishment Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 19. The same yeare the Empresse died Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 20. The second yeare of his banishment Eodem Capite The third yeare Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. The fourth yeare Chryso himselfe died Sozome lib. 8. cap. 27. 28. The Bull supposeth the Empresse to be liuing after Chrysostoms death Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 34. A blind Prophet to threaten that shee should shortly die which was dead foure yeares before Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 33. Chrysostom appealed not to the Bishop of Rome but to a Councel Socra lib. 6. Cap. 15. Episto 1. ad Innocentium Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 28. Ibidem The Popes legates sent awaie with reproch They were punished by the Princes law that did communicate with the Bishop of Rome Niceph. lib. 13. Cap. 30. Sozome lib. 8. Cap. 24. Theodoret. lib. 5. Cap. 34. Chrysost. enemies were men of good accompt in the church Socrat. lib. 7. Cap. 2. Theodor. lib. 5. Cap. 35. Epistola 1. ad Innocentium Socrat. li. 6. Cap. 23. â—eo Epist. 64. 69. Niceph. lib. 14. Cap. 27. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Chrysost. very passionate Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. What help Saint Austen and others sought of Innocentius Inter August Epist. 90. They requested Innocentius to concur with them in the condemnation of Pelagianisme Idem Epist. 90. Inter August Epist. 93. The Bishops of Rome will quickly take enough vpon them What is ment by referring matters to Peter Censura in Epist 90. 93. Basill wrote to the West Bishops in generall but neuer to the Bishop of Rome The end why the East Bishops sought to the West Basilij epistola 48. ad Athan. Basilij Epist. 61. occidentalibus frasribus Basilij Epist. 69 Italicis ac Galliâ— Basilij epist. 70. Galliae Italiae episc Marke what thinges Basill requested of the West Bishops Basilij epist. 74. occidentalibus episc The greater number and the further off the lesse suspected of the people Ibidem Basilij epist. 52. ad AthanasiuÌ„ The Bishop of Rome might counsell but not coÌ„maund Why Basill required messengers from the West patriarke Basil epist. 52. Ibidem S. Hierom coÌ„sulting Damasus Hiero. Damas. Episto tom 2. Ibidem Epist. sequent ad Damasum Epist. ad Damasum prior S. Hierom preferreth the West Church before the East as more syncere in faith and not Rome before all the world Ibidem S. Hierom sought no resolution in faith at Damasus mouth but letters to keepe him froÌ„ trouble in a strange place Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Epist. ad Damasum Super illam Petram in HieroÌ„ stand fitter to be referred to Christ than to Peter Hieron ad Marcellum aduersus Montanum tomo epi. 2. Vpon this rocke diuersly expounded of the fathers Aug. de verbis Domini secundum Mat. serm 13. The Church built on none but on Christ. Hilar. de Trin. lib. 2. Ibidem lib. 6. Ambros. in 2. cap. Epist. ad Ephesioâ— Idem de incarnat Dominici sacrament cap. 5. Chrysost. homil 55. in Matth. Bede in cap. 21. Iohannis 1. Cor. 3. Peter laide in the foundation of the Church as a principal meÌ„ber thereof Origen in 16. Mat. tract 1. Hieron lib. 1. aduersus Iâ—uiniaman Ephes. 2. Galat. 2. Neither of these constructions make for the church of Rome Tertul. de praescription Cyprian lib. 1. Epi. 3. Ad Marcellum tomo epistolaruÌ„ 2. Testimonia Hieron Damas. quoniaÌ„ vetusto tomo 2. The house of God is the Church of God and not the Church of Rome What S. Augustine meaneth by Peters seat Aug. in Psalm contra partem Donati From not in Peters seat Why may not ipsa est Petra be referred to Peters person as well as super hanc Petram in the Gospel as the Iesuits would haue it Cyprian de vnitate Reclesiae Catholicae S. Cyprian lately falsified by the papists A Canon of Bruges with his blind CaÌ„bron copie hath inlarged CypriaÌ„s text against all the copies of christendom Either the Cambron copie or all the written copies in the world must be corrupted which of these twaine thinke you do the Iesuits chose Distinct. 39. qui cathedram Gratian lately augmented as well as Cyprian Caus. 24 quaest 1. loquitur Dominus ad Petrium This place was not in the auncient decrees Glos ibidem qui CathedraÌ„ The glosse lately forged as wel as Gratians text And al this to make CypriaÌ„ speake cleane contrarie to himself within the compasse of eight lines Cyprian de
stakes with the Arrians IbideÌ„ epist. 33. He submitted himselfe to the punishment for that he could not with a good conscience obey the coÌ„maundement IbideÌ„ epist. 32. Ambrose ment to obey the Prince but not to flie for feare thereby to saue his life Ibidem oratio contra Auxentium IbideÌ„ epist. 33. Ibidem oratio Contra Auxen Ibidem orat contra Auxent Ibidem epist. 33. Ibidem epist. 32. Why Valentinian would not iudge betweene the Bishops of diuers faiths Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 7. Valentinian distrusting his iudgement suffered the Arrians to doe what they would Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 6. Socrat. lib. 4. Cap. 1. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 21. Theodoret. li. 4. Cap. 5. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 6. Valentinian maried two wiues gaue al men leaue to doe the like Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 31. Socra lib. 4. Cap 29. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 32. Theodosius discerned betweene the Bishops though ValeÌ„tinian would not or could not Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. Codic li. 1. tit 1. de summa trinitate side Catholica § Cunctos The trewe faith in Theodosius time was kept at Rome that was the same which we professe at this day Princes commaunded such as were hereâ—â—â—es to be 〈…〉 of theâ— Churches Sozom. lib. 7. Cap. 9. Codic lib. 1. tit 1. § nulius Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 2. Euagrius lib. 1. Cap. 12. So did Iustinian appoint depriuation for the breach almost of euery of his ecclesiasticall lawes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 28. Epist. ad solitar vitam degentes Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 29. Cited of S. Athanas. in the epistle aforesaid Suidas in verbo Leontius Lib. imperfect 2. ad Constant. Constantius reproued for his tyrannous and iniurious oppressing the Church Apolog. cap. 4. Athanasius wordes discussed Apolog. Cap. 4. Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes The Iesuitical madnes of citing the fathers to beare out that which should expound the rest Hilar. de trinit lib. 4. How Princes may rule Bishops and how not Comment sub nomine Athanas in 13. Rom. Disputa Atha cum Arrio Laodicee habitae Sorat lib. 1. Cap. 33. Idem li. 1. ca. 33. Princes may not rule Bishops that is not force them nor frame them to their fansies Vide Athanas. epist. ad solitar vitam agentes 〈◊〉 may play the tiraÌ„ts in temporal things much more in spiritual if they passe christiaÌ„ moderation and sobriety Ibidem Ibidem Constantius would haue his will to be the Canon of the church * Hilar. de trin lib. 9. The wordes of 〈◊〉 〈…〉 â—o thâ—t which â—s antecedent consequent in the same epistle Fiue things misliked in Constantius as tyrannical Hilar. lib. 3. ad Constant. OfteÌ„ chainging his faith Ibidem Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constantium defunct Ibidem Constantius was dead and so no Prince when Hilarie was so bould with him in his termes Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. Forcing Synods to his fansie Athanaes ad Solitar vitam agentes Athans Apolo 2. in epis Synod Alexand. Athanas. ad Solitar vitam agentes Suidas in Leontio Tripolis Episco Apud Suidam ibidem Admitting false accusations against Bishops and not suffering them to speak for theÌ„selues Athan. ad Solit. vitam agentes This was plaine tyranny repugnant to the lawes of God and man Athan. ad solis vitam agentes Athan. in eadâ— Epist. Disordered electing of Bishops Athan. ibidem Tyrannous persecuting Hilar. lib. 1. contra Constan. defunct Athan. ad soâ—it vitam agentes These fathers reproued CoÌ„stantius for that he did Now what he did their own wordes doe witnesse Osius wordes examined Athan. ad solit vitam agentes It is neither lawfull for a Bishop to hold a kingdoÌ„ nor for a Prince to take a Bishops functioÌ„ on him The Priest shall not excuse the Prince before God and therefore the the Prince can not bee bound to the Priests mouth The limiting of Osius words Aug. epist. 50. The words of Osius must be limited the limitation whatsoeuer it be cannot hurt vs. Suidas in Leon. Tripolis Episâ— Princes may not do what they list in the church of God Leontius wilfullie corrupted by the Iesuites This was aboue ConstaÌ„tius â—each and without his vocation to teach bishops in his owne person Suidas a late writer Suidas in eodeÌ„ Leont Leontius a man of no great iudgement Hilarie would not haue men forced to religion with tortures Hilar. lib. 2. ad Constant. Temporall Iudges had their charge by the Remane lawes limited vnto temporall 〈◊〉 Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 46. Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 32. Nouel Constit. 83. Clergiemen exempted froÌ„ temporall lawes but not froÌ„ the Princes lawes Ibidem Princes haue euer medled with ecclesiastical matters Nabuchodonosor Daniel 3. Aug. Epist. 50. Darius Daniel 6. Ionas 3. The king of Niniueth Ionas 3. August Epi. 50. S. Austen proposeth their examples to be followed of christiaÌ„ kings Aug. Epist. 166. The commandementes of kinges may lawfully reach to the publish Kinges and rulers commaÌ„ded by the holy Ghost for medling with religion ing of religioÌ„ Moses Exod. 32. Numbers 16. Deut. 32.33 Iosua Iosua 1. Iosua 1. Iosua 5â— 8. Iosua 8. Iosua 7. Iosua 24. Iosua 24. Dauid 1. Chron. 16.1 Chron. 23.24 25.26 3. King 2. 3. King 9. The Magistrate charged with all the wordes of Moses law 3. Kinges 9. Iosua 1. Deut. 17. They which discharged their duties to God medled with all things as well Ecclesiasticall as ciuill Kinges be charged with Gods law in respect of coÌ„maunding it to others August Epi. 50. Idem contra lit Petiliani lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contra Cres. lib. 3. cap. 51. Idem Epist. 50. Idem in Psalm 44. No man is a king in respect of himselfe but of his people Keeping and obseruing referred to magistrats is nothing else but to commaund see the law of God kept obserued by others Aug. Epist. 50. Salomon 3. Kings 8. 3. Kinges 2. 3. Kings 11. Asa. 2. Chron. 14. 2. Chro. 15. Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 17. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. 2. Chro. 19. Vers. 4. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. Vers. 10. Vers. 11. 2. Chron. 20. Vers. 3. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Ezechiah 2. Chron. 29. Vers. 2. Vers. 3.4 Vers. 5. Vers. 10. Vers. 15. Vers. 20. Vers. 21. Vers. 27. Vers. 21. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. 2. Chron. 30. Vers. 1. Vers. 6. Vers. 12. 2. Chron. 31. Vers. 2. Vers. 21. 4. Kings 18. Manasses 2. Chron. 33. Vers. 3. Vers. 11. Vers. 12. Vers. 13. Vers. 15. Vers. 16. Iosiah 2. Chron. 34. vers 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 7. Vers. 29. Vers. 30. Vers. 31. Vers. 32. Vers 33. 2. Chron. 35. vers 1. Vers. 2. Vers. 3. Vers. 4. Vers. 5. Vers. 6. Vers. 10. Vers. 16. Nehemias Nehem. 6. Nehe. 10. vers 1. Vers. 29. Nehem. 13. Vers. 7. Vers. 8. Vers. 9. Vers. 11. Vers. 17. Vers. 10. 11. Vers. 22. Vers. 23. Vers. 25. Vers. 28. Ver. 30. The illation vpon the former examples The kinges decreed and commaunded those
honor that they make their God To giue Christs honor to an Image in respect of the Originall is a seelie shift To adore the Image in respect of the Originall is in summe the very same answere that al the Pagans gaue when they were reproued for their Idolatrie Adoration of Images neuer hard of in the church before the 2. Nicen Councell which was 790. yeres after Christ. Painting of stories in the Church is a matter somwhat ancient but yet not catholike These fathers were Catholike yet repelled painting in Churches Nicenae Synodi 2. actio 6. The 2. Councell of Nice deluded the fathers that were alleaged against them Epiphanius pretended to be forged but without all cause Ibidem Eusebius condemned by them for an heretike but falsely Nicenae Synodi 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Chrysost. Amphilochius Asterius plainly shifted off by the Councel of Nice Contra Celsum lib. 7. Bowing to Images condemned * August de vera Religio cap. 55. Hieron in 6. cap. Daniel Gerson in compendio Theolog. de 10. praeceptis Some of their owne church haue condemned bowing to Images as contrarie to the lawe of God Saint August abused to make for Images August de doctrin Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9. Things ordained by God must haue their reuerence though they be but creatures marie adoration they must not haue * August lib. eodem cap. 9. de doctina christian lib. 3. c. 5. * cap. 8. Images vnprofitable signes and not ordeined of God * cap. 7. * cap. 8. The lawe of god condemneth bowing vnto Images which precept the Church must obey without all shifts or other respects Praying in a straunge tongue Custome without truth is the rottennes of errour * Cypr. ad Pompei contra epistâ— Stephan * Tertull. de virgin veland * Ex sentent Concil Carthag inter â—pâ—â—a Cyprian * August debap contra Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. Iohn 14. Ephes. 1. The Rhemish Test. vpon the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 14. The place of S. Paul to the Corinthians against praying in a strange tongue The Iesuites labour toothe and nayle to shift off this place * This is the summe of all their declaration vpon the 1. Cor. 14. in their Remish Testament The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The words strange or vnknowne put into the text in an other print for the opening of Sainct Pauls minde Sainct Paules words are most absurd if they be vnderstood of knowne toungsâ— The text cannot stand except you adde the worde vnknowne to it Sainct Paul so expoundeth himself * Vers. 9. * 11. * 16. An other tongue is a strange toung which is all one with an vnknowne tongue Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. The fathers interpreting Sainct Paul adde those wordes which we doe * Ibidem * Ibidem Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem * Ibidem Ibidem Haymo in 1. Cor. 14. * Ibidem August de Genes ad literam lib. 12. cap. 8. Mark what a tongue is by Saint Austens interpretation The Rhemish Test. 1. Corinth 14. He that knoweth not the sense is not edified but he that knoweth not one worde as in a strange tongue is a thousand tymes lâ—sse edified Speake to children in a strange tongue and they will either fly from you for feare or laugh you to skorne Hebrew doth edify no more than Irish if a man vnderstand neither De Gen. ad litâ— lib. 12. cap. 8. Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 14. Ambros. in 1. Cor. 14. Nothing doth edifie except it bee vnderstood The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. A wretched cauill of the Iesuits because the people vnderstand not euerie mysterie of the Psalmâ—â— or lessons to say they were as good not vnderstaÌ„d a word 2. Peter 3. If the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie the worde of god doth not edifie * Rom. 15. * 2 Timoth. 3. The rest of our prayers are so plaine that no man can pretend lack of vnderstanding them except he be a naturall They be mad Christians and of your making that vnderstand not these things This is a wise iest of the Iesuits because the people vnderstande Compare this similitude with the Iesuits obiection and tell me what they differ Yf seruice in â— known toung do not â—difie what doth seruice in an vnknowne The Iesuits waie to edifie is to let the people not vnderstand a word of their praiers Euerie toung barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not * 1 Corinth 14. The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. Act. 2. The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Barbarous that is which is not vnderstood what tongue soeuer it be 1. Cor. 14. * Hieron in 1. Cor. 14. * Chrysost. in 1. cor 14. hom 35. * Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Hebrew Greeke and Latine were not vnderstoode of the ciuil people in euery great Citie The Gretians accounteth the Latine tongue to be barbarous in respect of then own Plautus in prolog Asinariae Strabo Geographiae lib. 1. Rom. 1. We despise not these tongues as barbarous in themselues but shew what Saint Paul meaneth by this word Tristium lib. 5. elegia 11. * And you shall neuer proue he spake not of them in the meane time the Apostles words he indiffereÌ„tly for all tongues In the world and none of them be generall speaches extending to all the toungs that are * Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. * In all toungs he that is not vnderstood is barbarous to the hearer Chrysost. Ibidem Chrysostom exemplifieth Sainct Paules woords twise together by the latine tongue Though wee praie in latine or what toung whatsoeuer Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem By Saint Ambrose iudgement the Apostles spake principally of those that vsed the hebrew toung in their Sermons and praiers when the people vnderstood â—hem not Haymo in 1. Corinth 14. Haymo Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. That he speaketh not of Church seruice is proued by inuiâ—cible arguments Sainct Paule by preaching doth not exclude praying but seuerally mentioneth them both The Church in her diuine seruice must haue both preaching and praying Roma 10 The worde engendreth faith and faith produceth praier Act 2. * These three were the publike exercises of Christes Church vnder the Apostles If the Church seruice consisted of these three then were they all three parts of the church seruice The Church in the Apostles time had no set order of publike praier as the Iesuites dreame In the primatiue Church the pastours and ministers praied and gaue thanks at the spirit directed their hearts lips * God regardeth not these solemnities of the Iesuits which they suppose to be the highest points of godlines All things were doone in the first Church by the miraculous working of the holy Ghost 1. Corinth 12. The gifts of gods spirit at the first erection of the Church 1. Corinth 14. With the spirit is with the miraculous gift of the spirit The presence and consent of the people
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the
word as by his sacrameÌ„ts * Hier. in Psal. 147. The flesh of Christ is eateÌ„ more truely in his worde than in the sacraments * De Cons. dist 2. § vt quid paras August de ciui 〈◊〉 21. ca. 25. No such words are found in Chrysostoms Liturgie The woordes may be there yet not spoken to the sacrament a Pag. 21. l. n. 12 pag. 463. lin 11. b Pa. 452. li. 30. The Iesuites bid vs see the fathers but they doe not tell vs what we shall finde there It is not enough to will vs to see the fathers they must saie to what end they alledge them Chrysostome praieth to Christ in heauen not to the sacrameÌ„t * Liturg Chrys. Ibidem He woulde haue Christ behold the people from heauen not from the sacrament Mat. 18. Mat. 28. How Christ is present with vs. August in Iohan tract 50. His diuinitie is present with vs. Idem Ibidem His humanity present with vs manie waies though not in substance The Rhe. test pag. 453. The auncient Church did exactlie distinguish the sacrament from Christ. a De Catech. rudibus cap. 26. b De Baptis lib. 3. cap. 10. c Ambr. de Sacrament li. 4. cap. 3. d Orig. in 15. Matt. The whole Church cried on the people to lift vp their harts e Concil Nice * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth in as well as on f August in Iohan tract 50. Christ is both seene and touched by faith g Ambr. in Luc. li. 6. ca. 8. de filia princ Synag vesiâ—â—ci h Chrys. in 1. Cor. hom 24. * Ibidem Christ is on the table because his death is solemnized in the mysteries on the table i Colos. 3. k Phil. 3. Theod. dial 2. Not one of the fathers which they bring speaketh of the externall sacrament saue onelie Theodoret The mysticall signes must be adored but not with diuine honor These men caÌ„ plaie with shadowes verie pretilie The mysticall tokens remaining in their former substance must be adored Theod. Dial. 2. If they will adore the substance of breade Theodorets wordes will helpe them forward but not otherwise Adored is sometimes as much as â—eueâ—enced De cons. dist 3. § venerabiles in glossa ¶ cultu The Iesuits authorities for adoration of the Sacrament prooue no such thingâ— The reall presence This is my bodie doth not infer the reall presence Not the words but the exposition of the wordes is the thing that we striue for The Iesuites maie soone bring a thousand authorities for this point and not one to the purpose The papists in this question thinke to conquere with number if not with strength of places The papists beap vp places for their reall presence by hundreths not one to the purpose It were more wisdome for them to vndeâ—staÌ„d what they alledge than to alledge they know not what We striue not for Christs presence in the mysteries but for the manner of his presence The presence which the Iesuits hold the fathers neuer heaâ—d of Garetius Vernierus and the rest if a father do but name the body of Christ bring him in by and by for a witnes on their side and then they muster them by hundreths * You turne all fâ—â—m the thing themselues to the signes that is the cause of your error a Psalm 64. b Ierem. 18. Wisd. 1. These â—wo rules must be obserued in reading the fathers touching this matter els we shall infinitely erre To mistake the signes for the thinges themselues must needes bread a monsterous error Aâ—l their allegaâ—â—ns are answered with theâ—e two obseruations The literall prâ—ssing of those wordes is the gâ—ound of alâ— their error Christ did make the bread a God but added grace to the signe that it might becom a sacrament If bread be not made the sonne oâ— God then sure the bread is not made Christ. If the breade be Christ it must needs be made Christ for before it was not Christ. Christ doth not saie this is chaunged for or with my bodie but this is my bodie If the breade be Christ ergo it is God for he is God THIS in Christs words must needes note somewhat This must bee this somwhat and not this nothing The Iesuits be loath to tell vs what is meÌ„t by this in the wordes of Christ. This indeede is the right literall sense of our sauiours wordes and since that is apparently false the figuratiue sense must take place Matth. 26. The connexion of the gospell reâ—erreth THIS to the bread in the wordes of Christ. THIS of it selfe inferreth nothing and therefore must be guided by the circumstances of the text a 1. Cor. 11. b 1. Cor. 10. a 1. Cor. 11. Saint Paul in plaine speach ioynethâ— THIS to the bread Al the fathers referre THIS to the bread c Iust. Apol. 2. d Tertul. aduer Iedaeos e Idem li. 4. contra MarcioneÌ„ f De cons. dist 2. § qui maÌ„ducas g Cypr. de vnctio Chrismat h Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. i Idem li. 4. c. 57 k Hier. ad Hedibiam quaest 2. l Athan in 1. Cor. cap. 11. m Epiph. in Anchorato n Cyril catechis mystag 4. o Theod. â—ial â— The Iesuites loose all hope of their transsubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ if THIS in the wordes of Christ do not note the bread p De canâ— disâ— 2. § ante benedictioâ—eâ— Glâ—ssa ibidem q Gerson contr Floretum li. 4. r Gard. contra diabolic sophist s In his Marc. Antoni Consr. t Occam in 4. sâ—ntent dist 13. u De cons. dist 2. § timâ—rem Glossa ibidem Then haue the Iesuits small hold in the literall sense of Christs words for their transsubstantiatioÌ„ That this is the right purport of Christs words it cannot be doubted So long as the letter is true we maie not flie to figures but if that be false we kill our soules except we â—lie to figures * Aug. de dâ—â—tr Christiana lib. 3 cap. 10. When the speach must be figuratiue The literall coherence of these wordes this bread is my bodie is impossible blasphemous and barbarous To reprooue the misconsterer is to reuerence the speaker z De cons. dist 2. § panis est in Altari Glossa ibidem Not possible by their owne confession that breade should be the bodie of Christ. To saie that bread is christ in proper speach is horrible blasphemie To eate flesh in proper speach is against nature and far from all pietie a August contra aduers. legis Propheta lib. 2. cap. 9. b Idem contra eundem lib. 1. cap. 14. c Cyril in Iohan. lib. 4. cap. 22. d August de doctr Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. To eate flesh is an hainous act ergo Christs words are figuratiue This is S. Austens reason if the Iesuites can reâ—ure him let them Where Christ said this bread is my bodie the Iesuits say this must be no bread before it can be my bodie It is as great blasphemie for the bread to be turned into Christ as to be Christ.