principall matters that therin are handled or entreated of ⧠The second Dialogue intituled the waiting for the Councell or the Newtralles Of the reasōs vvhich cause many to desire vvait for a Councel and of the trouble that the difference vvhich is in Christendome in matters of Religion doth bryng to simple and ignoraunt consciences Daniel Timothe D. THou doost well remēber where we left as touchyng those that wayt for a Councell T. Yea in dede D. Will these men tary to beleue in God to serue him and to enquire of his will vntill the tyme that the Councell hath ben holden and that it hath determined what order of lyfe we should folowe T. It semeth that these mē take their foundation of that which thou hast said that if they should serue God truly it were first requisite to be well instructed and assured of his will D. Wherfore do they not then forthwith and withall diligence enquire therof why do they then tary for a Councell T. Bycause they say that in so great diuersitie of opinions as at this present day is in Christendome in matters of Religion they know not whiche to folow in surety For they see that some teache after one sort the others after an other that ther is often tymes as great contrarietie of opinions as betwene white and blacke and betwene fire and water That whiche one aloweth an other disaloweth that whiche one holdeth for Christiā doctrine and for true seruice of God an other condempneth it as heresie or els as superstition hypocrisie Idolatrie and Apostasie And besides this ther are of both sides personnages of great apparance great vnderstanding and great authoritie accordyng to the iudgement of the worlde notwithstandyng the multitude is farre greater of the one side then of the other men heare their discourses men read their writtinges bookes there are goodly reasons of both partes which euery of them endeuoureth to proue and confirme by the holy Scriptures and by all meanes possible In this cause what shal a poore man do whiche feareth to offend God and hath a good desire to serue him accordyng to his wil but he may not wel attain to the knowlege therof bicause that which the one saieth is the wil of God the other sayth it is not the will of God ¶ Hovve that the difference that is in Christendome in matters of Religion should not stay men from the diligent enquirie of the vvyl of GOD but shoulde rather prouoke them thereunto T. I Confesse that these differences which are in Christendome engender great trouble in the poore consciences of many but that ought not at all to let them to enquire by all meanes possible of the will of God and to employe thē selues with al spede possible to serue him but they should the more earnestly be moued and prouoked to do it to ridde them selues with as much speede as they myght out of suche troubles For why least they tary in it if they haue any feare of God in what trouble shall they lyue and what quyetnes maye they euer haue in theyr consciences I for my parte shoulde thincke that I were in hell if I shoulde longe lyue in suche estate without hauynge some thynge certayne and resolued in my mynde whereunto I myght assuredlye staye T. For thys they require a Councell for they thincke there wil bee there men of greater iudgement then they are by whose meanes the matter shall be so debated and examined that there shall bee a generall and a sure determination throughe the which euery man may be out of scrupule and doubte and may know wherunto to trust D. It semeth vnto me that their hope is very slender if they haue no better hope then this I maye not deny but their desire is good we all ought to desire the same if there were any hope to se it come to passe that with spede for the soner it were that better bycause it is much more daūgerous to delay or defer the medicyning of the soule thē of the body for if the medicine of the body come not in tyme to hym that is sicke that sicke person is not in daūger but onely of his bodely life but if the medicine of y◠soule be to long deferred ther is daūger of eternall death wherfore I do greatly feare that manye doo perish in tarying for those medicines T. There is much to be feared and also to be doubted in this matter ¶ VVhat profite the Churche of God may receaue of Councelles and of theyr issue D. THe Sinodes lawfull Coūcels is one of the best remedies that mē may haue to take away cōtrouersies in religiō it is the remedi wherunto in like cases that Apostles their true successors al that aūciēt church haue oftētimes had their recourse for albeit that the Coūcels haue no authority nor power to giue vnto the churche any newe doctrine nor yet to forge ani new articles of faith but only to hold maintain y◠doctrine which is reueled by the holy Scriptures yet notwithstāding they serue to great purpose in so much that they be as publike witnesses vnto it to succor the infirmitie of the simple weake also such as shall come after vs by the confessiō which is made of the same by thē by the publike testificatiō y◠there is declared by the perpetual cōsent of the Church of the doctrine of the Prophetes Apostles But although the Councels be ordeyned to this end that the aūciēts haue had more rule of thē selues better meanes much more meete for such a purpose then we haue at this presēt yet notwithstāding they could neuer obtaine that in their Coūcels which they desired And such vntowardnes was there that they did alway not onely not apease the differences abolish scismes heresies which troubled the Church but oftētimes euē there right many new did spring haue ben afterward frō tyme to tyme encreased if it were nedefull to proue it by exāples it were easy to do but we will not now enter into such matter I will cōtent me for this time to alledge onely touching this matter that testimonie the Gregory Nazianzen which was Master to S. Hierom did giue writting to Procopius of the Coūcels of his tyme whiche were nothyng so corrupted as ar those of our time if I must nedes sayth he write the truth I haue determined to refuse al the Coūcels of Bishops For I haue foūd the issue of no one Synode good or rather that they haue more encreased the euil then quenched it Here is the iudgemēt of Nazianzene touching this matter Which semeth to me somethynge harde for it can not bee denyed that some of the auncient Councels haue greatly profited vnto Christianitie notwithstandynge that the peruersitie of the wicked hath alwaye hindered that the frute and issue hath not ben such as was to be desired yet notwithstandyng Nazianzene hath not gyuen iudgement of the Councels
cause of this blasphemie for S. Peter in his i. epistle 3. chap. cōmaundeth vs to be alwayes readye to render reason to all that shall demaund vs of the fayth hope that we haue And again S. Paul Colo. 3. chap. Pro◠10. b let the word of God dwell plenteously in you but what answere make they to that which are more folish then the very fooles in dede Blessed is euery symple one he that walketh surely But that is the cause of all euills for that that many know not how to alledge aptly the testimonies of the scriptures for in this place we may not vnderstād the symple for the foolyshe and for him that vnderstandeth nothing but for him that is not craftye and melicious For if it shoulde be so vnderstode it should be superfluous to say be ye wyse therefore Math. 10. b as serpentes and symple as doues S. Ambrose vpō the 2. epistle to Tymothe 3. chap. sayeth All scripture geuen by inspiration from God c. It is manifest that all Scripture wherof God hath declared himselfe to be author is profitable For it is geuē to that end that it shoulde profite the ignoraūt reforme the deformed drawing the wicked into al good workes for by profiting a litle and litle in newnesse of lyfe it maketh the mā of God c. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring or conuerting soules the testimonye of the Lord is Collo 3. b Psal 19 Psal 119 faythful and sure it geueth wisedome to the ignoraunt The statutes of the eternall are righteous reioysing the hart the cōmaundement of the Lord is pure and doth lighten the eyes And againe Thy word is alampe or lanterne to my fete a light to my steppes The Prophet Esay in his 8. chap. sayth is there any where a people that asketh not councell of hys God Should men turne frō the liuing to the dead If any man want light let him loke vpon the law the testimonie whether they speake after this meaning The lyght of the Ezech 20. c morning shall not be geuen vnto them Moreouer the Prophet sayth Say to the childrē in the desert walke not in the ordinaunces of your fathers obserue not al their statutes be not defyled with their idoles I am the Lord your God walke in my ordinaunces and kepe my statutes and do thē Eccle. 1 a Itē the fountayne of wisedome is the word of the soueraign Lord God the entre into the same are his eternal cōmaūdements And agayn Search the scriptures for in them you thinke you haue eternall life and they bee they which beare Iohn 5 Iohn 20 g witnes of me And Iesus did many other thinges that are not written in this boke in the presence of his disciples but these things ar writtē to the end that you should beleue that Iesus is the annoynted sonne of God that in so beleuing you may haue life thorow his name The holy scriptures are In what recommendacion God hath his Word full of the lyke sayings The auncient fathers are full of the worthines of the scriptures S. Augustine in his 56. sermon made to the brethren that were in solitude sayth he that maketh none accompt of the reading of the holy scriptures sent from heauen ought not onely to feare that peraduenture he shall not receaue euerlasting rewards but also that he shall not escape the euerlasting punyshmentes for it is so daūgerous vnto vs not to read the deuine precepts that the Prophets with great sorrowe exclame cry out for that cause haue Esay 5. c Ose 4. b 1 Cor 14 my people bene brought into captiuitie because they had no knowledge for he that is ignorant shall be ignorant out of all doubt he that in this world maketh none accompt to seke to know God by the holy Scriptures God wil not vouchsafe to know him in the ioyes euerlasting we ought to be a feard to heare after that the gates shall be shut with the folyshe virgins I know you not I haue none acquaintaunce Math 25 ◠with you you that worke iniquitie depart you frō me what meaneth this I knowe you not I am not acquainted with you how knoweth he not those that he sendeth to the fyre There is neyther of thē spoken without cause for as it hath bene already sayd suche as woulde not in thys world seeke to knowe hym by reading the Scriptures GOD will not acknowledge them at the day of iudgement We ought also not to heare negligently but with attentiue eare fear that which is written in Salomō he that turneth sayth he his eare Prou 18 ◠frō the hearing of the lawe his prayer shal be abhominable wherefore he that will be heard at Gods hand muste fyrste heare God For how woulde he that God shoulde heare him when he doth so dyspyse hym that he maketh none accompte of the readyng of hys commaundementes Saint Hierome in the proeme of his Commentaries vpon Esaye to Eustochius sayth therfore I yelde vnto thee and to hym by thee that whiche I do owe obeyng the commaundement of Iohn 5. f Math. 7 ◠Christ who fayth searche diligently the Scriptures Seeke and you shall finde to the end that it be not sayd to me as it was to the Iewes ye erre not knowyng the Scriptures the power of God the wisedom of God and truly after S. Paul if Christ be the power and wisedom of God he that knoweth not the scriptures the same knoweth not y◠power of God nor his wisedō To be ignoraūt of the Scriptures is not to know Christ c. S. Chrisostome in the Homelie 29. vpon Benefis sayeth There is neyther griefe of body no◠mynde in the nature of man but it may haue medicine of the Scriptures c. These are sayinges of great importance and are true They are no Legend lyes They are confirmed by the word of God whiche is the infallible truth Then if man know not God as he ought to do but by the Scriptures that none can be saued but by the knowledge of God and Christ Thē must it nedes folow that ignoraūce of the Scriptures bryugeth with it damnation I haue alledged here mo sayinges of the fathers then I would haue done nothyng so many in number as I could haue done but bycause the great swarme of aduersaries say that it is not lawfull or expedient that euery man should read the Scriptures but rather that the people should be ignoraunt affirmyng ignoraunce to be the mother of deuotion I could haue aūswered it to the full by the woorde of God alone whiche woorde I thincke to be most sufficient but bycause these kynde of men before named wil not accept Christ to be a true man of hys word except he haue some of the doctors fathers for witnesses Seyng nowe that it hath pleased our good God in mercy so to deale with vs as he hath in these our
no fayth For fayth may haue none other regard obiect subiect nor foundation but God in Iesus Christ his only truth Yf it haue any other foundation if it be builded vpon men and vpon the opinion that men shall haue of them it shal chaunge as men do and as the opinion doth that men haue conceiued It shall fall when they fall it shall be inconstant variable and subiect to chaunge euen as they are For she shal not be builded vpon Math. xxii i. Pet. ii Ephes ii i. Cor. iii Math. xvi the liuely stone whiche is Iesus Christ and vpon the sure foundacion of the Prophets and Apostles vpon the which the true Church must be builded if it will endure agaynst the gates of hel and the whole hellish power otherwise how may it be a faith For these vices are as contrarie to fayth as is the fire to the water Wherfore such as dwel vpon mē in this sorte and do not discerne of thynges nor proue the spirites whether they be of God or no according to the Coūcell gyuen by Saint Iohn What assurance may they haue Iohn iiii in their consciences Whylest they are at rest and that they be not assayled by temptacions nor wakened by the iudgement of God and that they do haunt among such as are of the same religion that they are of it semeth vnto them that their faith is very sure strong but when they shal find thēselues assailed with diuers temptacions compassed roūde with great daūgers that God shal a litle astoone their cōsciences with his iudgemēt they shall then finde what stay they haue of mē that there is no perfit assuraūce nor true quietnes of cōscience but in the true faith engendred in the hartes of mē by the very persuasion of the word spirite of God And if it should happē that they should be cōuersāt amōg men of an other Religion what would they then do T. Yf they should be in Turckie they would as well receyue the lawes of Mahomet refuse the Christian Religion as the Turckes do for they haue euen the same reasons and argumentes to do it as otherwise they haue to accepte or refuse that whiche they haue already receiued or disalowed They would euē do the lyke if that they were among the Iewes or any other nation whiche should hold any other religion then the Christian D. It is not to be doubted ¶ Of the honor that is devve to good and true teachers in the Churche and of the meane that vve ought to kepe to the ende that vve do gyue neither to much ne yet to little credite to men hovv perillous a thing it is to trust to much to a mans ovvne iudgemente T. IF the matter be as thou sayest to what purpose do the good doctors serue which haue receiued so many excellent giftes of God for the edifying of his Churche D. I say not these thynges to despise or condempne them for we should be to much vnkynde towarde them if we should condempne or despise them considerynge they haue taken so greate payne to make the holy Scriptures more playne and easie vnto vs and that by their laboure wee haue had greate commoditie They haue sweat to delyuer vs from a greate deale of payne and trauayle and haue greatlye holpen vs with their labour and made the way more plaine for vs. Also we should be to outragious against God if that we should despise them blasphemyng the giftes of hys holy spirite whiche he hath bestowed among them Wherefore thincke not that I do alow the iudgement of certaine rashe men or fauoure a nomber of puffed prowde spirites who without any regarde condempne all men esteemyng none but them selues Bycause they haue knowē that the worlde hath bene seduced by gyuyng to much credite to the iudgementes of men and haue bene to lyght of credite not enquiryng of the truth by the witnes of the holy Scriptures they haue gone so farre on the other syde that they are no lesse to be blamed then those whome they do condemne For if it bee perillous to credite to muche the iudgementes of men so is it also daungerous if that we gyue not that credite that we ought to do to the iudgementes of those which gouerne them selues accordyng to the worde of God T. It is a very hard matter to kepe measure and meane and so to do thinckyng to auoyde the one sorte of extremitie and perill that wee fall not more daungerously into the other For if I gyue no credite to the iudgemente of others but will dwell wholly vpon myne owne and vpon my oppinion wherin am I more worthy of prayse then they whō I do condempne Am not I a man as they are D. There is no doubt but if I do folow onely mine owne iudgement fantasie I folow the iudgement of men for I am no God any more then other men are If the others be to be blamed bycause of their ouer muche lightnes negligēce raysh belife follie so should I also feare that I be not subiecte to greater blame through follie pride selfe will false persuasiō of my selfe T. Here is no smal daūger but before all other things we ought to feare least we stand to much in our owne con trust to much to our owne iudgements vnderstanding despising the iudgementes of others to be to much gyuen and wedded to our own willes For this vice is meruellous daungerous is the chief fountain and cause of all heresies and Scismes whiche are the most daungerous pestilences that may happen into the Church D. Therfore haue I sayd these thinges to the ende that we mighte know how to folow that moderation the which S. Augustine hath folowed without giuing more or lesse vnto men then faith Christian charitie may endure yelding alwayes to God to the canonicall Scriptures that honor which we do owe vnto thē taking good hede that we gyue no more to Councels to men then to them what apparēce or shew so euer they haue For they that come to Councels are men And in that they are men they are chaungeable subiecte to errors and vntruth They do conclude accordynge as the spirite is by whom they are gouerned If they be led by the spirit of God they wyll conclude in the fauour of the truth yf they be led by the spirite of error as were the Prophetes of Achab agaynste Miche they will maynetayne and confirme lyes i. King xxii And by these meanes they that shal followe them shall bee in very good case ¶ Of the difference that men ought to put betvvene the doctrine and vvritings of the Apostles and Prophets and of those that came after them and the cause therof T. I Do confesse that those which come to the Councels are men but a man may replye that in a lawfull generall Councell they are guided by the holy Ghost and that he will not suffer them
those thinges whereof we haue alreadye discoursed to that purpose and because I will not be to tedious vnto thee D. Feare not to demaunde of me for there is nothing that I doe more willinglye T. I know that wel but I should be to much discourtese and rude if I shoulde haue no regarde nor spare thee more then thou wouldest spare thy selfe Moreouer it is not suffiiâ—ent for me to heare onely as doe many scholers whiche charge them selues with moe lessons then their capacitie may endure doing nothing but heare without profitting or learning of any thing D. Thou haste reason in that that thou sayest ⧠The effect of the thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells making mention of the auncient doctors and decrees I Doe conteyne in this Dialogue following the matter of Councels concernyng theyr authoritie alledging many examples of auncient hystories by the which I doe shewe the greate contrarietye that hath beene betwene many Councels and many decrées and Canons as wel of them as of Romishe Popes There is in the same also mention made of the libertie geueÌ„ to Christians for to reforme the abuses that shall happen in religion and of the duetie that euery man doth owe to the same and of the attent of them that do attend vpon those that are called the prelates of the church Likewise of the lawefull assembles that are made in the name of Christ and of the gift of Prophecie and of the promise of God and to whom and vppon what condition Moreouer of the authoritie of the true and lawfull Councels which must be holdeÌ„ to be the very rule and lyne to rule all others and what proceeding and order the Pope and his do obserue in theirs And as touching the rest euery man may the more easely vnderstand the other poyntes and matters thâ—t therin are entreated of by the litle summes or titles by the which we haue packed theÌ„ together shortly declaring them in order euen as we haue done in the Dialognes going before It is easye to iudge by thys som why I haue geuen thys title to thys Dialogue ⧠The thyrd Dialogue intitled the authoritie of Councells ¶ Of the asistance of the holy Ghost in lavvful Councels and of his giftes and of the perpetual conseruation of the truth in the church Tymothe Daniell IF thou haddest tyme I woulde verye gladlye that thou wouldest continue those matters of the which we did discourse at our laste departure of the one from the other D. I am readye when so euer thou wilte be ready to heare And therfore declare what thou haste to saye as touching the writings of the auncient Fathers and Doctors what difference there ought to be put betwene them and the decrées passed and determined in the lawfull Councells T. When these good fathers and auncient doctors do teach or write any thing in particular they may more easely erre being as particulars theÌ„ when they are assembled together at the Councel in the which the spirit of God doth assiste in greater effecte and vertue in so much as the giftes graces which he hath geuen to euery member of the body of Iesus Christ are all there together euen as it were in one perfecte Roma xii i. Cor. xii Ephe. 4 i Sam. 10 body Wherefore the one helpeth the other and euery man feeleth the more presently the vertue of the spirit of God in himself For if Saule which was forsaken of God dyd prophecie among the Prophets after that he was come into their companies in such sort that it became a common prouerbe among the Hebrewes and it was sayd is not Saule also amongest the Prophets Is it not more like to be true that God will geue the spirite of prophecie to them that come together to the Councell for his glory and for the edification of the Church For where is it that the promises by the which God doth promyse his perpetuall assistaunce and an euerlasting course of truth to his church shoulde haue place if not in such a company Hath he not sayd behold my couenaunt which I haue made with them My spirit which is in thee and my wordes which I haue put into thy mouth shal Esay iix not depart froÌ„ thy mouth nor froÌ„ the mouth of thy seede foreuer And agayne he will geue you an other comforter the spirit of truth to the end that he tarye with you And he shal Iohn xiiii lead you in the knowledge of all truth D. I will not vtterly denie al that thou saiest if they come together to that end that thou speakest of But al Synedes Seanes and Councels haue not alwayes ben assembled in the name of Iesus Christ The examples which are in the ecclesiasticall hystoryes doe witnesse the same and the Canons and decrees which haue bene ordayned and concluded in them For oftentimes they repugne the one to the other as much as do the fyre and water ¶ VVhat thynges there are to be desired in Councells yea euen in those Councells vvhich haue beene moste excellent and lavvfull of all those that haue bene celebrated and holden since the tyme of the Apostles T. I Would very gladly that thou wouldest proue by some examples worthy of fayth that which thou now sayest D. Euen those same that haue bene most lawfullye assembled although thei haue ordained established very good things founded vpon the word of God and that they haue mightelye defended the cause of the truth that God hath not suffered them to erre in the chiefe pointes in matters that are properly the very substance of religion and do concerne the articles of the fayth necessarye vnto saluation yet doth it not follow for all that but that they may haue erred in some thinges that they may haue made constitutions that somtime are more contrary to the word of God theÌ„ coÌ„formable And without seking any further we nede but to examine the Canons decrées ordinaunces of the Councell of Nice which is accompted the chiefe of all next to the Councell of the Apostles of all that reste consequently which men thinke to be that most perfect certayn most worthy of credite and it shall be easye to iudge if euery of theÌ„ hold in al respectes the Apostolike maiestie authoritie how farre of they are oftentimes froÌ„ the puritie of doctrine which was in the primitiue church For God would not do vnto others that honour which he hath done to his Prophets Apostles to the end that the humaine authoritie should not be coÌ„parable to the deuine which ought alwaies to be preferred How many lawes constitutions may men fynde made in these Councels which draw more nere to mans wysedome or to Iewishe and Paganishe supersticion then to the simplicitie of the doctrine of the Apostles I speake of the verye same that haue bene decreed by those Councells that are best allowed in the church of God and Christ and are worthye to bee esteemed
fallyng into such perplexities and inconuenieÌ„ces he that will not beleue me let him rede their Canons and Decrees and Platina whiche hath written the lyues of the Popes and hath bene nourished and broght vp in their Court and Sabellicus the other historians which haue entreated of these matters T. I beseche thee shewe me some examples to proue this to be true to the end that I may not thinck that thou speakest of pleasure without proofe D. Yf I should alledge al those that I might gather out of their bokes I could find ynough wherwith to outretayne thee a long tyme but I will hold me contented with a reasonable nomber to satisfie thy request We wil first speake of the Canons and Decrees that the Popes haue made the one sorte contrarie to the other Platinâ— What agreement is ther betwene the Pope Iohn the xxij the Pope Nicholas when the one pronounced iudicially the Iesus Christ and his Apostles possessed nothyng neither in priuate ne yet in common and the other did the cleane contrarie â—ecre 4. â—itl de diuor ca 5 Plat. Sabel In the matter of diuorce Celestine doth permit that the faithfull partie shall marry agayne yf that the other partie be fallen into heresie Innocent on the contrarie denieth it Afterward Stephen the with hath cut of and made of none effect the actes of the Pope Formosus by the authoritie of the Councell and agayne Iohn the x. who succeded this Stephen did condempne his sentence in the assemble of Rauenna here must it nedes be of necessitie that not onely the one or the other of the Popes hath erred but also that CouÌ„cels whiche haue folowed their opinions and sentences whom they haue abused to coÌ„firme their errors abuses and tyrannie by their authoritie Wherfore Gerson which was one of their owne doctors sayd not without greate reason that the saying of one doctor approued by the Canonical Scriptures was more to be credited then the declaracion of the Pope and the saying of a doctor well sene in the holy Scriptures and alledging the vniuersall authoritie was more to be credited then a generall Councell T. He did not amisse for somuch as they do so disagree amonge them selues D. Panormitan which was at the same tyme a man of great reputacion and was present at the Councels of Constance â—â—nor in â—a signifi de Elecii and Basle as Gerson was hath sayd no lesse althoughe he were a great Idolatre of the Papacie for he sayd that we ought more to credite the saying of a simple lay man alledgyng for hys proofe the Scriptures then to all the whole Councell ¶ Of the contrarietie of the Decrees of many Councels touchyng the Mariage of the Ministers of the Churche T. I Do not a litle maruell that such meÌ„ durst affirme any such thyng in those dayes D. It is so but the veritie is of such power that she constraineth her very enemyes yea the deuils them selues to confesse her but folowing our purpose for so much as we haue spokeÌ„ of Popes let vs now come to the coÌ„trarietie of Councels The CouÌ„cel of Nice Hist Tri. li. 2. c. 13. dist 31 c Nicen. Plat. in vita Silu. Dist 28 cap. Si quis dist 30. Siquis viroruÌ„ dist 31. c. Quoniam of whom we haue already spoken which was holden in the yeare three C. twentie and three did alow the Mariage of Ministers of the Churche and condeÌ„pned those that would forbid it The first Councell of Sangres holden in the yere three hundred thyrty and three hath done no lesse and did accursse al such as vnder colour of Religion should leaue their fathers mothers and wines The sixth Councel of CoÌ„stantinople hath in like sorte ordeyned that no man should make any vowe to lyue without a wife that the Priestes whiche should separate them selues from their wiues for theyr holy orders sake should be excluded from the Communion dist 27. c. Quidam The Councel of Anticyre holden in the yeare three huÌ„dred and foure hath in like sorte permitted that Deacons should marrie yea euen after that they had receiued theyr orders And as concernyng the Councell of Carthage holden Ex Car. â— â–ª in the yeare foure hundred twenty one in the whiche the heresie of Pellagius was condempned by two hundred and seuentene Bishops among whom S. Augustin was it appeareth manifestly by the twelueth constitucion of the Apoc c. â— Extra de Clem Coâ— lib. 6. c. 1. Epâ—p li 2 Tom. 1. heres 41 same that the Bishops and other men of the Churche were married And Boniface the viij did suffer the religious to enioy their liberties althoughe they were married The viij Councell of Tolletto doth allowe to breake al vowes and othes whiche are made agaynst the fayth And Epiphanius doth earnestly condempne those who hauing not the gift of continencie had rather for shame of the worlde to commit fornication and adulterie secretly then to marrie On the Albert. Crautâ— in Saro lib. 4 ca. 43 Navvcler contrarie the Councell of Neocesarie holden the yeare three hundred and thirty and the second Councell of Carthage holden the yeare foure hundred and twentie after them the CouÌ„cell of Magonce did condempne the Mariage of Priestes and Ministers of the Churche did wholly forbid it and did binde the Priestes MoÌ„ckes and Nunnes to vnlawfull vowes impossible for men to kepe were cleane contrarie to the worde of God Thys Councell of Magonce was holden by the Emperour Henry the iij. in the whiche he assembled an hundred and thyrtie Bishops Some saye that the Pope Leo the ix was there also present at it It was also ordeyned in that Councell yâ— men of the Church should keepe neytheir hounde greyhond spaniel nor hauke ne yet should vse any seculer traffique and that none should be receiued for a Monke vnles he came of his own free wil and were of lawfull age but these Decrees haue not ben so well obserued as hath the forbidding of Mariage Likewise Gregory the vij a Monk of Clunie otherwise called HildebraÌ„d which was Pope in the tyme of the Emperor Henry the iiij did commaunde by his letters to Otto Bishop of ConstaÌ„ce Naucler â—lbert Crauts Lambert Hirsweld neare about the yeare a thousand fortie and seuen that he should forbid through out all his diocese all Priestes to marie whiche were not then maried and that he should disolue the mariage of all such as were already married T. I see in this no great accord D. Notwithstandyng all this was done and not without great tyraÌ„nie ne yet without great resistaunce T. I beleue so ¶ Of the contrarietie of certaine Councels concerning the forbiddyng and difference of Meates D. HEre is as much as I did determine to speake as touching Mariage let vs now come to the forbidding of of meates The second Bracarense CouÌ„cell holden the yere Di. 30. ca. Si quis six hundred nynetene did acursse all
such as did abstaine from eating of any meate thorow supersticion and that which the Pope Martin helde did the like The thyrd Councell of Tolede did accursse those that should forbid men to eate And the Pope Eleutherius did ordayne that no maÌ„ should refraine throughe supersticion from eatyng of any meate that was agreable with mans nature On the contrarie the Romaine CouÌ„cell did forbid to eate fleshe on the Saterday and afterward that defence was extended further as we see at this day to Friday Vigils Imber dayes and Lent T. The Papistes will replie agaynst this and say that by makyng of those statutes concerning the forbiddyng of meates they do nothing agaynst the auncient Decrees and Councels for so much as they do abstaine neither for supersticioÌ„ ne yet for any euill opinion that they haue of the good cretures of God as did the auÌ„cient heretikes but onely for abstinence D. I vnderstand it well but if they do it for abstinence how happeneth it that they haue on those dayes these kindes of meat which are forbidden in so great abhomination Why do they attribute to their abstinence so great merites why do they not rather put difference in the quantitie of the meate then in the kind whiche they do not at all T. It is euen so ¶ Of the Decrees of the Councell of ConstaÌ„ce and Basle touchyng the supper of the Lorde vnder both kyndes and of the supremicie of the Pope and of the Romishe Churche and of their contrarietie D. LEt vs now procede to other matters The Councel of Constance did forbid to administer the supper of the Lorde to the people vnder both kindes to wit of bread and wyne and the Councell of Basle did graunt both the one the other to them of Bohemia But there is a more strauÌ„ge matter That same very Councell of Constance doth euidently speake agaynst it selfe and agaynste that of Nice of Aphrique the whole Churche of the East and Aphrique For it condempned that article of Iohn Hus to wit That the Pope by the authoritie of the worde of God is not the head of the Churche yet was it decreed in that same CouÌ„cell that the Councell was aboue the Pope whiche thynge doth very well agree with the sentence of S. Ierome which sayth if there be question of authoritie that of all the world is greater theÌ„ is that of one towne in like sorte is the whole Church greater then one Romishe Church and the Romish Church is not aboue the vniuersall Church but on the contrarie the vniuersal Churche is aboue the Romish Church Now if the Pope haue authoritie ouer all Churches and yâ— the Councell doth represent them it doth folow both that he is aboue the Councell and that he is not aboue the CouÌ„cell contrarie to the determination of the sayd Councell of Constance whiche is mingled with manifeste contradictions I leaue a parte that whiche they did define That the Churche was not the vniuersitie of the predestinate that our good worckes must helpe to saue vs as well as the grace of God I speake not at all of the Decree that was made in the same Councell that men ought not to holde any promise othe or safeconducte made or gyuen to heretikes whiche thynge forthw t was put in vse not agaynst heretikes but agaynst the seruauntes of God whiche were there condempned for heretikes and were burned as heretikes T. Yet was thys a general Councell D. It was so T. I do not a litle maruell that such matters could passe in a generall Councell whiche the heathens would not haue passed but would rather haue iudged it meete to kepe promesse euen with a mans very enemyes ¶ Of the contrarietie that hath bene in many Councels concernyng Images D. IF I should alledge the dissentions that haue ben in diuerse CouÌ„cels concernyng Images it would require Enti de Re. Ro lib 23 Anton. Florent a longe tyme. For Gregorie the iij. decreed by his Councell in Italie that Images should be honored in the Churches and did reuolte and caused Rome and all Italie to rebell agaynst the Emperour Leo the iij. whiche was of contrarie Auspurg in â—hro minde And afterwarde Constantine the v. sonne to the sayd Leo did ordeyne the contrarie in the Councell of Asia and Gretia about the yeare seuen hundred fortie and sixe at the which there were assembled thirtie eight Byshops at Constantinople Agayn Stephen the iij. Pope condempned this Councell of Constantine by an other Councell whiche he caused to be holden at Rome in the Church of Laterane by the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce The which thynge was done again by an other Councel in the tyme of Hirâ—ne wyfe to Leo the iiij After that the Councell of Nice in the which the Greekes would haue condempned the Images agayne was enforced to breake vp by meanes of the dissentioÌ„s that there were and throughe the practises of those that helde for the Pope Whilest these thinges were in hand in Grece the Councel Elibertin was holdeÌ„ in Spayn by twentie nine Bishops and thirtie sixe Spanish Priests which pronounced their sentences against Images who were also condeÌ„pned by the twelfeth Councell of Tolede and afterward for the Popes pleasure and for the French kinges sake they were agayne alowed by an other Councell T. Here was good stuffe ¶ Of the Councell of Carthage concernyng the Baptisme administred by heretikes D. IT is no maruayle since that the Romishe Popes haue vsurped tyrannie ouer the Church and especially sythe the tyme of the Emperour Phocas if that there hath beene smal reason to be found in any of the Councells but I wil alledge you others more auncient It was concluded in the Councell of Carthage at the which S. Cyprian was present Euseb 7. c. 5 with lxxxvi Bishops to wit in maner with all the Bishops of Aphrike Numidie and Mauritanie that the Baptisme administred by heretikes shoulde haue no place but that those which had beene Baptised by them shoulde bee Baptised agayne The which sentence was afterward condempned as appeareth Dist 5 quare ¶ Of the sentence and opinion of the Papistes concerning the generall and particuler Councells and of the diuersitie of their decrees T. THese against whoÌ„ thou doest inuey will confesse vnto thée that the Councells yea the general Councels in that that concerneth the manners and discipline of the Church haue oftentimes determined diuerse thyngs without any preiudice of the fayth according to the condition circumstance of the places times and men and such lyke De consangui affiniâ—a cap. non debet For this cause Innocent the third sayd That it ought not to be iudged a thing worthy of blame if that according to the chaunge of time mens ordinaunces dyd also chaunge chiefely when an vrgent necessitie and an apparaunt commoditie doth requyre it For God himselfe hath chauÌ„ged diuerse of those things in the new Testament which he ordeined in the olde And
therfore mē may not rashlye iudge and say that the Councells are contrary the one sort to the other although that in thinges concerning the policie of the church more then the fayth the one hath oftentimes chaunged that the other hath decreed For the lawfull generall Councells were neuer contrarye the one to the other in anye peece of the substaunce of our fayth which is necessarye to our saluation And in this sort muste it be vnderstoode that S. Augustine hath sayd The former Councells haue bene amended August Tom. 7. de baptis cont donatist li. ◠cap 3 by the latter and that the ordinaunces and decrees of prouinciall Councells ought to geue place to those of greater Councells but the Canonicall Scripture doth geue place to none And as touching the Councell of Carthage it was no generall but a particuler Councell as Saint Augustine proueth agaynst the Donatystes And in deede they denye not but that particular Councells may erre and that they ought to be reformed by the generall as it is already declared ¶ Of the errours and abuses that haue beene brought into the church vvhat meane there ought to be had for the correction and amendment of such Councells vvhen nede shall requyre D. THen they do confesse at the least that the prouinciall Councells may erre yea euen those in the which the most wyse and holy men that were in the worlde since the Apostles tyme haue bene present For S. Cyprian was one Euseb 7. 5. cap of the best learned men that hath beene in the church since that tyme and was of such zeale towards the word of God and his church that he dyed a martyr for the truth of Iesus Christ And then iudge you that if a Councell in the which such personages were might erre what we may thinke of many Idolatries and supersticions and of many vaine ceremonies tradicions and abuses that haue bene sowed in the church not by Councells and particular Synodes onely but by particuler men who haue charged the church to what so euer pleased them For one hooded Monke or Fryer had beene sufficient to haue inuented a thousand maner of doinges cleane contrarye to the Scriptures and forthwith they shoulde haue beene put in vse and allowed as if they had beene articles of the fayth If it were lawfull then to chaunge those same verye thinges which the generall and lawfull Councells had decreed concerning the policie and discipline of the Church as touching their maners according to the nedefulnes of the circumstaunces and the capacitie of men of places and tymes it oughte then to bee no lesse lawfull to those vnto whom God hath geuē the knowledge of hys worde to condempne and abolyshe so many abuses innumerable errours which by so many meanes and wronge waies without order or ecclesiastike discipline haue beene sowed in the Church of the Lord and are so intollerable that the very greatest enemyes of veritye euen the Romaine Antichrist haue beene constrayned to confesse it And without going any further to proue it dyd not the Pope Adrian confesse not manye yeares since that there were many enormities and inconueniences in the Romish seate and many abuses offences and disorders in the gouernment of the Church And beside thys what confession dyd the Legates and oratours of the Pope Paule deceased make at the Councell of Trent of the estate of their church But what wilte thou saye if I doe proue by S. Augustine that not onely the prouincial and nationall Councels may be corrected by the greate and generall Councels but also euen they them selues maye bee corrected the one by the others the fyrst by the laste T. If it be so our aduersaries shoulde not then thinke it straunge if we would not wholly dwell vppon the authoritie of their Councells D. That same doth playnlye appeare by his writinges wherevpon he declareth when that same ought to be done and by what meane To witte that when by experience of thinges that which was secret is opened and that which was hidden is knowen without any puffing vp in pryde full of sacrilege without any swollen arrogancie withoute any contention and enuye but with holy humilitie with the vniuersall Christiā peace he speaketh here generally of all Councells and of all that euer may be determined in them ¶ Of those that vvayte vpon the Prelates of the Church and vvoulde haue them to correcte the abuses that therein are and vvhat libertye euery man hadde to sovve and bryng them into the Church and vvhat agreement difference there is betvvene the auncient Heathen Emperours and the Popes and their Councells and assemblyes T. THey doe not vtterly denye but that there are some abuses and errours in the Church but they say that it appertayneth not to euery man to reforme them but that the charge thereof belongeth to the prelates of the Church vnto whom GOD hath geuen it Wherfore they thinke meete to haue a generall Councell to determyne what thynges shoulde bee obserued and what shoulde bee abolyshed before that any thyng shoulde be chaunged or altered D. The Seducers and false Prophets which filled the church with errours dyd not tarye a generall Councell to poure out their poyson and to corrupte the Church of the Lorde but we muste tarrye for a Councell to pourge it and in the meane tyme the poore soules shall goe to the deuill Muste we put the matter in question in a Councell whether we ought to beleue that Iesus Christ is God and the verye Sonne of God and our onely Sauiour and redeemer Shall we doe as dyd the Emperour Tiberius who put the matter in deliberaion in the Councell at Rome with the prerogatiue of his voyce and the testimonye of hys consent whether Christ shoulde bee accepted and receaued amongest the Gods or no Which thing he did for that as Tertullian witnesseth that the Romaines had a very auncient lawe by the which it was ordayned that there should Apolo 5. bee no God canonized by the Emperours and that none shoulde be so receaued vnlesse he were allowed and confirmed by the Councell For thys cause Iesus Christ was not receaued for a God because it pleased not the Councell albeit that the Emperour was of contrarye opinion T. Then had not the Emperour so great authoritie in the Councell at Rome ne yet in hys Empyre as the Pope will chalenge ouer the Councells ouer the whole church ouer al Christendom yea and ouer the word of god it self D. It is true and therefore I feare greatlye that if Iesus Christ were now to be receaued he shoulde be as farre of from being receaued at the Councells in the which thys Romaine Antichrist doth preside as he was then at that Councell of Rome For sithe they doe reiecte and disalowe hys doctrine they do sufficiently declare what opinion they haue of him T. It can not be better knowen by any thing then by that for that is a profe most sure ¶ Of the thinges vuhich of them selues
are alreadye sufficiently resolued among all men vvithout looking for any resolution of the Councell and of the negligence and carelesnesse that is in vs to put them in vse and to gouerne oure selues according to the same D. IF they thinke him to bee the very Sonne of God and that his Gospell is the worde of God they nede not to tarye for a Councell to determyne whether it shal be receaued and obserued or no but woulde rather endeuour themselues to put in execution those things which are not in cōtrouersie but are alreadye agreed vpon resolued amonge all men as well by the word of God as by their own Councels Let them therfore correcte their ignoraunce and beastlynes their negligence and slouthfulnes in the executing of their office and their pompes and ambition their insatiable couetousnes their execrable whooredome with the number of those horrible vices which raigne among them For there nedeth not any tarying for that Councell to condempne or allowe it for it is alreadie resolued Why do they not obserue the decrees of the Pope Alexander the thyrd of Gelase of Nicolas the seconde of the Elibertin Councell of Tolede of Carthage of * Cabylone of Chalcedonie and of Laterane which haue forbidden to any money or presentes for the satisfaction of sinnes for baptisme for the churches for the Sacramentes and for the gifts of God which ordeyned also that none should be aduaūced to any place in the church for money ne yet for rewardes and that he should be holdē for Apostatike and not for Apostolike that shoulde obtayne the seate of Rome eyther by money or els by fauour Why are not the poore nourished and clad and also the sicke and weake by the Bishops according to the ordinaunces of the Aurelian Councel Why do the Monkes possesse any thyng in proper contrarye to the determination of that same Councell But all thys is olde and abolyshed why may we not lawfullye reproche them in that sorte that Iesus Christ dyd those Iewes which soughte to haue him dead because he hadde healed a man sicke of the Palsey vppon the Sabboth daye and yet lefte not they to violate and breake the whole law vpon the Sabboth daye And therfore he sayd vnto them dyd not Moyses geue you the lawe Iohn vii and none of you obserueth the same Why doe you seeke to put me to death They declared playnely by that what zeale they hadde to the lawe and yet woulde they shewe as though they had a greate care for the obseruation therof and chiefely in the pursute which they made against Iesus Christ These good men doe euen the lyke making a shewe as though they dyd greatlye desire the reformation of the Church and yet in the meane tyme there is no one peece of the worde of God Councell nor Canon which they doe not violate and corrupte without geuing order in anye one thing Nowe seing that men are come so farre there needeth nowe but a Councell to abolishe the reast that remayneth for who be they that shall holde it Euen those which haue sowed authorised and allowed these errours and abuses And yet will they glorye that their law and fayth with their whole religion is so well approued that no one iote thereof ought to be called in doubte It may be no more disputed of then maye the Alcoran of Mahomet amonge the Turkes but must be holden for fullye resolued what so euer they do approue or disalowe ¶ VVhat lihertie Christians haue to reforme the abuses that are among them accordyng to the povver and authoritye vvhich God hath geuen them T. THey will confesse that there are manye thinges as it hath bene already sayd which may be chaunged and abolished according as necessitie shall requyre as we haue Actes xv example in the Councell of Ierusalem holden by the Apostles as hath ben heretofore declared There were thinges that wer ordeined but for a certain time which we obserue not at this present for we haue not that occasion vnto the which the Apostles then had regarde now among the Christians none are offended to see men eate bloude or to eate of a strangled beast D. Then if the Church hauyng well considered the intent and end whereunto the Apostles dyd tend haue abolished in processe of time that which the Apostles thē selues did decrée as touching the ceremonies knowing that the ordinaunce did not touch at al any part of the substaunce of the fayth but that it was ordained only for a bond of peace to kepe charitie to beare for a time which the infirmite weakenes of the Iewes why may she not thē more lawfully vse her authoritie to abolishe the idolatry that supersticions mens traditions which are directly against the fayth charitie all good discipline good order against the health of soules And if it cā not be done by a generall consent of Christendome why shal not they yet in their behalfe employ them selues which shall haue best meanes to beginne some good reformation For if it haue bene lawful for a hooded fellowe so boldly to set forth for the word of god his dreams shal it not thē be lawfull for a Christiā prince being accompanied with learned men that feare God and good ministers of the Gospel hauing the word of God for their guide to reforme the churches within their dominions countryes according to the example of Ezechias Iosias and to pourge them of so manye intollerable iiii Kings xviii xxiii abuses without tarying any longer for the determination of a Councell But are not all Christiā princes bound to doe this for so much as those which oughte to procure it wil not vnderstand of it as they ought to do but do enforce them by all meanes to hinder it that there should be none lawfull ne yet any thing concluded that were good And therefore we ought not so to depēd vpō Coūcels be they particuler or general that we should not do our duty always according to the graces means which god shal geue vs. For we may not thinke the God is subiecte to the greatest multitude for then would he not haue spokē that which hath ben already alledged in an other place Thou shalt not follow that great number in euil and thou shalt not dwel in any thing because that many Exod. xxiii doe it to wander out of the waye and to peruert iudgement This were a great folly to imagine if that we should thinke that al those which shal assēble to hold a coūcell be assured to shutte in forthwith the spirit of God ther into that place wher they shal come together to haue him at their pleasure ¶ Of the passages vvhich the papists alledge to authorise their Councells and of the true meaning of these same T. THey do builde vpon this that Iesus Christ said Whē you shall be twoo or three gathered together in my name I wyll be in the middest of you Beholde I am