great folie I wil not saie also a blasphemie A great folie it is for you and your felowes to contemne the General Councelles of late yeres for that they be newe as you say your selues and your doctrine being yet so newe and of so litle age Verely no age or time of Christes Churche to any Christen man ought to seeme newe in respecte of doctrine and faith If he beleeue the holy Scriptures describing the Church vnto vs he can not without folie in that respecte cal it newe The time may be newe or late bicause it commeth and passeth The Faithe and Doctrine remaineth one and the same not changed with the course of times Nowe as the Worde of God and our Faithe dureth for euer so Christes Churche being one and the same as it hath in al ages continewed so shal it continewe to the worldes ende This before hath benne prooued and by your selfe confessed The Councelles therefore I meane the doctrine of Faith opened discussed and agreed vppon in Councelles by the Bisshoppes whom the holy Ghost hath ordeined to rule the Churche Act. 20. Ephes 4. and by the Pastours and Doctours whome God placeth to the edefying of the Churche that we be not carried awaie by euerie winde of doctrine is not newe The discussion and plaine opening of it may be newe The doctrine is olde as truth it selfe is olde Ansvver to the obiection of the later CouÌ„celles being contrarie to the olde Your second cause why these later Councelles doo beare with you the lesse Authoritie is for that as you say they be so many waies contrarie to the olde It had benne good reason that if these later Councelles be so many waies contrarie to the olde you had shewed presently at the lest one of those so many waies Shal it be sufficient for you to geue out such a Reproche iâ— a matter of so greate Importance without any prousâ— at al It had benne plaine dealing at the lest to haue named some one Councel and to haue touched some one pointe wherein that Councel should be founde contrarie to the olde This therefore I lette passe for a Notorious and a Reprocheful Vntruthe boldely auouched but no waie proued Onely I aduertise the Reader that it is not possible any general Councel shoulde be contrarie to an other in matter of faith One Churche one faith and necessarie doctrine As the Churche in Faith is but one so the Faith discussed determined and agreed vpon in Councelles truely representing the whole body of the Churche is but one As the Churche can not be contrarie to it selfe in Faith so general Councelles assembled in the holy Ghoste can not be contrarie to them selues Marke wel good Sir what I saie One general Councel can not in a matter of faith be contrary to an other CouÌ„cel Math. 18. In doctrine and matter of Faith no lawful General Councel truely and rightly that is in vnitie and Charitie assembled hath or can at any time determine contrarie to an other likequalified For so the one should erre in Faith whereby Christes promise should seeme to faile who said wheresoeuer two or three are assembled together in my name there am I in the middest of them In my name faith S. Cyprian that is in vnitie and in the body That later Councelles haue determined some matters not before in other Councelles determined it is euident and not denied Heresies haue caused many matters to be more opened then they were before as S. Augustine noteth But new articles of the faith be not decreed in CouÌ„celles That also in matter of manners and of external order or gouernement some Councelles haue done coÌ„tratrarie to other according to the state of times and diuersitie of circumstances it is not denied Yea that it be so done sometime the state and present case of the Church of necessitie requireth it Aug. epist 5. ad Marcellinum For which S. Augustin saith notably Non itaque verum est quod dicitur semel rectè factum nullatenus esse mutanduÌ„ Mutata quippe teÌ„poris causa quod rectè antè factuÌ„ suerat ita mutari vera ratio pleruÌ„que flagitat vt cuÌ„ ipsi dicant rectè noÌ„ fieri si mutetur contrà veritas clamet rectè non fieri nisi mutetur quia vtruÌ„que tunc erit rectuÌ„ si erit pro teÌ„poruÌ„ varietate diuersum It is not therefore true which meÌ„ say looke what thing is once wel done it ought in no case to be changed For the state of the time being altered that thing which was wel done before good reason oftentimes requireth so to be changed that whereas they say it is not wel done if it be changed the truth on the other side crieth out It is not weldone if it be not changed bicause both shal then be right and wel if it shal be diuers according to the varietie of the time But that in matter of faith or doctrine Ansvver to that M Iâ—vvel obiecteth against the later CouÌ„cels for that by the same al our doctrines vvhiche they impugne 〈◊〉 conâ—irmed as is a fore said any General Councel lawfully assembled was euer contrarie to the other it is a mere vntruthe and a false sclaunder that can neuer be proued Where you say for a third cause or reason why these later CouÌ„cels are of lesse autoritie for that there is none of our errours so grosse and palpable but by some of them it hath ben coÌ„firmed to that we answer Quod das accipâ—mê° we admit gladly that in these late CouÌ„cels al such matters as we defend which it pleaseth yau to terme grosse and palpable errours haue ben confirmed We are then discharged and the whole Church of late yeres is charged But Sir being confirmed by General Councelles why cal you them Errours grosse and Palpable Saie you not also herein that the whole Churche erred at that time grossely and palpably Let vs take one Councel and one Age for example to auoide confusion of general discoursing and to bring this matter to some cleare issue The Lateran Councel vnder Innocentius 3. In the yere of our Lorde 1215. aboue three hundred yeres past in the General Councel holden at S. Iohn Laterane in Rome with ful consent of a thousand two hundred fourescore and fiue Fathers assembled there out of al partes of Christendome as wel out of the East Church as out of the West the Ambassadours and Oratours as wel of both Emperours being present as also of diuers other Kinges Princes and States it was by mature discussion found TransubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ and agreed vpon and decreed so to be beleeued that in the blessed Sacrament of the Aulter due consecration being made the substance of breade is changed into the substance of the body of Christ and the substance of wine into the substaÌ„ce of his bloode the worde Transubstantiation whereby much that belongeth to that mysterie is by a coÌ„modious breuitie expressed was allowed the opinion of Berengarius was condeÌ„ned
Religious personnes and others of the Clergie detected What if I saie al these and many other suche thinges were graunted of whiche we are persuaded that some are true the more parte is false muche is so written as it maie be defended no lesse then impugned What great inconuenience what preiudice to our Faith can ensue of al this Must the Catholike and ancient Doctrine of the Churche for these pointes be founde vntrue Must this now needes be made a good Argument Some of their liues were sinneful Ergo their Doctrine was false Truely these be the matters with the enlarging whereof his Defence hath risen to so huge a quantitie About whiche I haue not thought it needeful to bestow muche labour partly bicause in most of those pointes my Confutation of the Apologie yet standeth vnrefelled partly also bicause it liked me not to emploie good houres in so friuolous and vnfruitful a trauaile but chiefly bicause what so euer be said by M. Iewel touching these thinges either on the one side or on the other it importeth no disprouse of the Catholique doctrine in any Article whiche specially I haue taken in hande to mainteine Howbeit the thinges he bringeth in to deface the Churche must needes with wise menne in this case beare smal credite being considered vpon whose authorities and reportes they be auouched The Catholikes can not be greatly moued with suche thinges as are written in preiudice of the Churche either by them whose Bookes be of suspected faith and therefore condemned by the Church as Auentinus and Beno de vita Hildebrandi or haue ben corrupted of late yeres by the Lutheranes of Germanie as Vrspergensis In Indice librorum prohibitorum Antonius de Rosellis Polydorus Vergilius de Inuentoribus rerum Paschasius and others or who haue benne muche inclined to innouations in Religion and fauoured the Procedinges of Luther and his disciples as Erasmus Cornelius Agrippa Carion Lorichius Cassander and suche others or who be knowen to be manifest Heretiques and professed enemies of the Churche as Gaspar Hedio the Author of Paralipomena added to Vrspergensis Anselmus Rid Vergerius Sleidan Illyricus Fabritius Montanus Iacobus Andreae and many suche others al whiche M. Iewel allegeth against the Churche the Popes and the Clergie boldely as if they were Doctours of sufficient authoritie and sound credite against whom specially in these matters no exception might be taken As there is no cause why we shoulde greatly esteeme any thing spoken by these either against the manners of the Clergie or against the Ceremonies and customes of the Churche or against any parte of the Catholique Doctrine bicause in iudgement the bare worde of the Accuser or of him that otherwise is an il willer beareth smal credite against any man So touching the doctrine of Faith we feare not what so euer M. Iewel allegeth against vs out of the Schoolemenne Canonistes of al sortes Summistes and Glosers out of the Cardinalles and those other learned and graue menne appointed by Paulus Tertius to geue information of thinges in the state of the Churche to be refourmed and out of the Bisshoppes speaking their mindes freely in the late Councel of Trent For we are wel assured how so euer M. Iewel telleth their tales for them they helde and mainteined the doctrine which we professe in euery condition What so euer therefore he bringeth out of them bearing any sound of wordes against the Catholike Faith as very litle it is that to that effecte he can bring though with heapes of their sayinges he hath filled his great Volume the same is either by heate of Disputation or by waie of Obiection against the Truthe after the Scholastical manner for the better opening of the Truthe or by vehemencie of zele or perhappes by humaine ouersight vttered otherwise then by them is determined in their Conclusions whereof the taking of aduantage is vndue and ouer captious or by some sleight of M. Iewel falsified and corrupted or to saie the least by vntrue cōstruction wrested to a sense by the Authour neuer intended How so euer it be they shew them selues either very blinde of iudgement or very contentious wranglers or very vaine Ianglers that allege the wordes of any Writer against the Catholique doctrine whose whole course of life shewed him to be Catholique Which is tolde vs by S. Augustine as a moste certaine rule whereby to vnderstand mennes wordes in matter of Religion And therefore thus he crieth out vpon the blindenesse of such men among whom M. Iewel maie take him selfe annumbred that wil not vnderstād mens wordes by their dedes Aug. contra Epist Parme. li. 3. cap. 4. Incredibilis est coecitas hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tāta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorū factorūque patesceret vsqueadeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt cōmemorent sancta Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis Prophetarū quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarū The blindnesse of men is inoredible and certainely I wote not how I might make one beleeue that there were such frowardnesse in men onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so faste shut vp that they allege the testimonies of the holy Scripture and doo not behold in the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded Wherefore seing the farre greater parte of M. Iewels Defence consisteth of their sayinges heaped together of whom some were either them selues or their workes being vntruly set forth after their death of suspect faith some found to fauour heretikes some professed heretikes some contrariwise knowen by publike profession of their life to be perfite Catholikes making litle accompt what they of the one side saie as being of no credite specially in matter of Faith and not doubting but these of the other side meant wel and godly how so euer their wordes by M. Iewel be abused corrupted and misconstrued in consideratiō thereof good Reader I iudged a short Treatie might suffice in this case shorte I meane in comparison of that Huge Volume fraught with so much voide impertinent and superfluous stuffe Otherwise it is longer I am wel assured then he shal euer be hable aptly truly and directly to confute I saie not but he maie do eftsones as he hath twise already donne that is to saie gather together a huge number of sayinges out of al sortes of Writers and printing this Treatie withal sende vs forth an other great booke conteining much stuffe to litle purpose and not once touching the very precise pointes wherein he is charged with foule errours and falshed But to come directly to the pointes by me thoroughly refelled and with good proufes to iustifie the same keeping him selfe in from idle ranging abroad in matters not denied or otherwise impertinent this is that I affirme he shal neuer be hable to perfourme though he write againe as muche as
doctrine Where the thing you treate of is not in controuersie betwene you and vs and where you speake not with affection to ouercome Strange manner of vttering the faith we graunt some tymes ye vtter truth But the manner of vtterance of your Faith is straunge to Christen eares who haue bene accustomed to heare Credo in Deum Credo in Iesum Christum Credo in spiritum Sanctum I beleeue in God I beleeue in Iesus Christe I beleeue in the holy Ghoste That other forme of wordes whiche you vse soundeth not so Christianlike I beleeue there is a God I beleeue that Iesus Christ is the Sonne of the Father I beleeue that the holy Ghoste is God Although this forme of wordes doo expresse a right Faith yet being suche as maie be vttered by Deuilles and hath bene alwaies vttered by Heretikes their ministers the auncient and holy Fathers haue liked better the olde fourme and manner after whiche euerie Christen man saith I beleeue in God I beleeue in Iesus Christe I beleeue in the holy Ghoste For this importeth a signification of Faith with Hope and Charitie that other of Faith only which the deuilles haue and tremble as S. Iames saith wherein as in many other thinges Iacob 2. these Defenders resemble them S. Augustine in sundry places putting a difference betwen these two formes of wordes vpon S. Iohn alleging S. Paules wordes To one that beleeueth in him who iustifieth the wicked his Faith is imputed to righteousnes Rom. 3. In Iohan. Tract 29. To beleue in God what is it demaundeth what is it to beleeue in him It is by his aunswer Credendo amare credendo diligere credendo in eum ire eius membris incorporari with beleeuing to loue him with beleeuing to goe into him and to be incorporate in his members that is to be made a member of his body In an other place he saith speaking of Christe De verbis Domini Serm. 61 it It forceth muche whether a man beleeue that he is Christ and whether he beleeue in Christ. For the Deuilles beleeued that he was Christ neither for al that beleeued the Deuilles in Christ For he beleeueth in Christe who both trusteth in Christe and loueth Christe For if he haue Faith without Hope and Loue he beleeueth that Christe is he beleeueth not in Christe So he that beleeueth in Christe with beleeuing into him shal Christe come and by some meane he is vnited vnto him and is made a member in his body Whiche can not be done excepte there come also both Hope and Charitie Thus S. Augustine The same doctrine he vttereth writing vpon the 77. Psalme By this thou seest â—â—â—â—ed I blâ—me not their 〈◊〉 dâ—sâ—â—â— the Trinitie not their Profâ—sâ—ion of the CoÌ„mon Creede as M. Iewell calleth it but only I seeme beâ—ter to allowâ— the auncient and vsual manner of vttering the Beleefe whiche for good reason hath euer seemed to the learned Fathers more commendable Reason and consideration of duetie would that a Minister of Gods worde should be a fraide to vtter so great and so manifest vntruthes vnto his liege Soueraine But of like some wil saie he wil amende that faulte in other partes of his Epistle to her Maiestie specially sith that he allegeth nothing but directeth the Reader vnto the place where it is to be founde by his quotation noted in the margent whiche hath at least some colour of vpright dealing and being founde false declareth an impudent falshod I would wish that for truthes sake al would reade and conferre and iudge of the oddes betwen vs bothe First thus he writeth Iewel The maine grounde of his vvhole Plea is this that the Bishop of Rome vvhaâ— so 〈◊〉 it â—â—al like him to determine in iudgemeÌ„t can neuer â—rrâ— Fâ—â— directioÌ„ of the Râ—â—der he quoteth thus Câ—sus fo 334. b Harding What he meaneth by his terme Plea I wote not ne care not I pleade not for right of any temporal thing Neither am I a lawier as he knoweth 〈◊〉 emploie my studie of Diuinitie to defendâ— the. Catholique Faâ—th and to detecte his falshod that Godâ— people be not by him and his felowes dangerously seduced The thing whereat he scoffeth for these wordes what so euer it shal like him to determine be scorneful wordes is not so vttered by me as he reporteth Who liste to see what I saie for so muche as the booke of my Confutation is not alwaies at handâ— thus it is The Pope succedeth Peter in auctoritie and power Confut. Fol. 334. b For whereas the shepe of Christe continewe to the worldes ende he is not wise that thinketh Christe to haue made a shepeherd teÌ„porarie for a time ouer his perpetual flocke Then what shepeherdly endoument our Lorde gaue to the first shepeherde at the institution of the shepeherdly office of the Churche that is he vnderstanded to haue geuen ordinarily to euery successour To Peter he gaue that he obteined by his praier made to the Father that his Faith should not faile Againe to him he gaue grace Luca. 22. that to performe the performance whereof at him he required to wit that he confirmed and strengthened his brethren Wherefore the grace of stedfastnes of faith and of confirming the wauering Hovv aÌ„d vvherin the Pope erreth not â—e neuer erred and doubteful in the Faith euery Pope obteineth of the holy Ghoste for the benefite of the Churche And so the Pope although he maie erre by personal errour in his owne priuate iudgement as a man and as a particular doctour in his owne opinion yet as he is Pope the successour of Peter the Vicare of Christe in earth the shepeherd of the vniuersal Churche in publike iudgement in deliberation and definitiue sentence he neuer erreth nor neuer erred For when so euer he ordeineth or determineth any thing by his high bishoply auctoritie intending to binde Christen menne to performe or beleeue the same he is alwaies gouerned and holpen with the grace and fauour of the holy Ghoste Answer M. Iewel to this if ye can Certainely hitherto ye haue not answered As for that you bring against it in your pretensed Defence there is no graue or learned man of your side that is not ashamed of it In that game of scoffing I doo gladly yelde you the garlande Your greatest Doctours there are Alphonsus de Castro and Erasmus menne of our age As for Erasmus it were easie to Answer him but here I thinke his tale not worthe the Answering Mary Alphonsus saith somewhat to your purpose if the tale whiche you make him to tel were his owne Certainely if he once wrote it when he beganne first to write afterwards with better aduise he reuoked it For in the bookes of the later printes those woordes whiche you reherse are not founde Thus you saie Defence pag. â—â—5 AlphoÌ„sus de haeresiae buâ— li. 1. cap. 4. Alphonsus de Castro one of M. Hardinges owne special Doctours saith Non dubitamus an Haereticum
esse Papam esse coire in vnum possent c. Non enim credo aliquem esse adeo Impudentem Papae Assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoc velit vt nec errare nec in Interpretatione Sacrarum literarum hâ—llucinâ—ri possit We doubte not whether one man maie be a Pope and an Heretique both together For I beleeue there is none so shamelesse a flatterer of the Pope that wil saie * I saie it not read my wordes again as you saie M. Harding The Pope can neuer erre nor be deceiued in the exposition of the Scriptures This very saying M. Iewel bringeth in likewise against the Popes in the Defence pag 615. vnder the name of Alphonsus with the same Cotation And after that he hath rehersed the wordes thus he pipeth him selfe vp the triumphe against Hosius in despite of the Popes as if he had gotten of me a worthy and glorious conqueste Here M. Harding your owne principal Doctour Alphonsus calleth al them that mainteine your Doctrine and saie as you saie the shamelesse flatterers of the Pope But I saie on the other side here M. Iewel It pitieth me to see you so vaine a man and it is some paine also with litle profite for me stil to tel you one tale that al standeth vpon false grownde that you builde I had neede to be wel seene in Copia Verborum to be furnished with diuersitie of termes that I might by some change of speache ease the griefe of the Readers eares who must alwaies heare this muche at my hande that M. Iewel lyeth Looke Reader and peruse my woordes aboue rehersed and thou shalt see I saie not that the Pope can not erre nor be deceiued in the exposition of the Scriptures I saie he maie erre by personal errour in his owne priuate iudgement as a man and as a particular Doctor in his owne opinion But that he erreth or euer erred in publique iudgement in definitiue sentence and determinations touching matters of Faith that I vtterly denie VVho be they whoÌ„ AlphoÌ„sus in this case calleth Flatterers Alphonsus would them to be accompted flatterers who wil needes saie that the Pope can not erre or be deceiued in any case whiche neither I nor any learned Catholique man euer said You doo vs wrong therefore with your vncourteous language M. Iewel and belie Alphonsus faining him to call vs shamelesse Flatterers whiche he neuer meant It had benne your part to shewe where or when any Pope euer defined any false and erroneous doctrine to be receiued and beleeued of the Church Excepte ye shew vs this whiche we are sure ye can neuer shew ye maie spare such idle talke whereof ye haue great stoare whereby in many places of your bookes ye go about to proue that sundrie Popes haue erred Item in the place aforesaid Iewel That he is alvvaies vndoubtedly possessed of Gods holy Spiritâ— Confut. Fol. 285. a. Harding Not alwaies M. Iewel I saie it not I know and denie not but it maie wel be proued that some Popes haue in sundrie their Actes and Deedes lacked the direction of the Spirite of God as MeÌ„ne but not in Publique Decrees touching the necessarie doctrine of Faith In the place noted by your Cotation thus I saie Confut. 285. a. Sapient 8. Gods wisedom as the scripture faith disposeth al thinges sweetly and in one instant forseeth the ende and meanes that be necessary to the ende If he promise any man life euerlasting withal he geueth him grace also to doo good deedes whereby to obteine the same Whom he hath glorified saith S. Paule them he hath iustified Rom. 8. and called Matth. 16 Luc. 22. So whereas he hath by force of his praier made to the Father promised to Peter and for the saftie of the Church to euery Peters Successour that his faith shal not faile and therefore hath willed him to confirme his brethren that is to remoue al doubtes and errours froÌ„ them we are assured he wil geue him such witte diligence learning and vnderstanding as this Firmnesse and Infallibilitie of Faith and Confirming of Brethren requireth See further Reader what I saie in that place To this and to the rest said in that place M. Iewels chiefe maÌ„ner of answering Defence pag. 612. M. Iewel maketh answer in his pretensed Defence after his common manner with these graue and learned notes Sadly and Sagely and muche to the purpose Item Vntruthe fonde and childish c. Item O worthy graue reasons Neither answereth he the matter only by such marginal notes but also otherwise at ful where he furnisheth vs out two long leaues ful of trumperies pretended to be piked out of obscure and late writers Alphonsus de Castro M. Iewels doctours and the same for the more parte vtterly belied Beatus Rhenanus Legenda aurea Fasciculus rerum sciendarum Iohannes Stella Hulderikes forged Epistle Erasmus Annotations the disallowed Councel of Basil the Appendix or lable of the Councel of Constance whiche he fowly falsifieth reporting that of Iohn 22. whiche was said of Iohn 23. the vsurper also out of Vesellus the Glose vpon Gratian one Iohn of Paris Heruaeus Gerson Hostiensis the Canoniste Aeneas Syluius in that booke whiche he him selfe reuoked and recanted Petrarkes Rymes Lyra â—aldas Pâ—aâ—ina Iouerius Hermannus Gigas Iohannes Camoâ—ensis alleged by Cornelius Agrippa Iohn of Sarisburie Hermannus Rid an Heretique Cornelius Agrippa litle better in his booke of vanitie and of such litle worth late petie Doctours When he coÌ„meth to answer the pointe it selfe which standeth in the force of Christes praier made vnto the Father for the Firmnesse of S. Peters and his successours Faith thus he frameth his answer ful sadly I warrant you and like a godly Minister If the Pope should erre Defence pag. 614. saith he â—r be in heresie M. Ievv feareth not to vse his floutes speaking of Christ him selfe he might 〈…〉 in an Action of Couenant and require him to performe his promise Suche Flowtes and Scoffes becomme the Ennemies of Christes Churche and thereof this felowe serueth him selfe when learning faileth One great aduantage he hath ouer me he wil be sure to make moe lyes then I shall haue liste or thinke it labour worth to answere God be thanked he can not shewe any Pope that euer lacked the spirite of God in setting foorth any publike Decree touching any pointe of Faith to be holden of Christian people Item in the place aforesaid Iewel That at the Popes only hand vve must learne to knovv the vvil of God Confut. 324. Harding I saie not that we must learne to know the will of God at his hande onely That were a fonde doctrine For we may and doo learne our faith and what is the wil of God at the handes of others as of our Parentes our Frendes our Pastours our Curates our Ghostely Fathers our Preachers and our Bishoppes In the place by M. Iewel reprehended vpon occasion of the Apologie where the
Defenders require vs to follow the example of S. Irenaeus in that he as they saie appealed oftentimes to the oldest Churches whiche had benne nearest to Christes time and whiche it was hard to beleeue that they had erred thus I saie Confut. â—â—4 a. Ye would seeme to be faine that we folowed the aduise of S. Irenaeus We are content with al our hartes And with Irenaeus we appeale to that Tradition Irenaeus lib 3. ca. 8. which is from the Apostles which as he saith is kepte in the Churches by Priestes that succeded them With Irenaeus leauing other Churches whose succession of Bishopes it were a long worke to reherse we require to haue recourse for trial of our Faith to the tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche which he termeth greatest oldest Idem lib. 3. cap. 3. best knowen to al founded and set vp by the twoo most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule We appeale to the Faith of that Churche taught abrode in the worlde and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs. For to this Churche saith Irenaeus must al the Church of Christe repaire where so euer it be for that it is the chiefe of al and for that the tradition of the true doctrine whiche the Apostles lefte behind them is there faithfully kepte Wherfore if ye would after the counsel of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte you and vs and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine whiche hath continued by Successions of Bishoppes euen from Peter to Pius the fourth now Pope and would stand to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike al strife were ended we should be at accorde But we haue litle hope that ye wil folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr whose bodie your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce villanously burned at Lions Anno Domini 1562. after it had rested there thirteen hundred yeres and more In al these wordes as thou seest reader I say not as M. Iewel beareth her Maiestie in hande I doo that we must learne to know the wil of God only at the Popes hande But I declare whether we may most safely resorte for decision of the controuersies that be betwixte vs and the Protestantes Whereunto M. Iewel hath not yet answered ne neuer shal be hable to answere though in the Defence he haue shuffled together a great heape of allegations nothing perteining to the present purpose as his custome is to doo and a great parte of my confutation there he hath cut of M. Iewel cutteth and mangleth the Confutation in infinite places leauing out wordes of greatest vveight and therby hath fowly mangled the same as for his aduantage he hath done in infinite places leauing out the matters whereunto he had not what reasonably to answere See the place Reader Defence pag. 701. and thou shalt finde my worde true Item there Iewel That in the Popes onely holinesse standeth the vnitie and safetie of the Churche Confut. 204. b. Harding If I had so said in a right sense it might wel be allowed Howbeit thus I said Confut. 204. b. As Christe gaue vnto S. Peter and his Successours for the benefite of his Churche a supreme auctoritie and power so for the same Churches sake for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death by petition made to his Father he obteined for him and his Successours Ioan. 14. Luc. 22. the Priuiledge of this Supreme and most excellent Grace that their Faith should neuer faile In consideration of whiche singular priuiledge obteined by Christe and graunted to the See Apostolike and to none other S. Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much as one that presumptuously vsurped that new name of vniuersal Bishop against the Statutes of the Gospel and against the decrees of the Canons To coÌ„clude if either S. Gregorie or any other maÌ„ should saie that the Churche dependeth vpon one man he might seeme to saie truthe meaning rightly and that not alone nor without good authoritie For such a saying we finde vttered by S. Hierome Hieron Contra Luciferian The saftie of the Churche saith he dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest priest who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue al other there wil be so many schismes in the Churche as there be priestes Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue al other as S. Hierome in that place doth attribute vnto the Bishop of euery Dioces directly so consequently to Peters successour to whom it was said Feed my shepe Iohan. 21. For by what reason in ech Dioces it behoueth one priest to be highest ouer other Priestes by the same and in like proportioÌ„ no lesse it behoueth that in the whole Church one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes I meane for auoiding of schismes This reason is not ne can not of M. Iewel be auoided Of other thinges impertinent he bringeth vs great stoare out of other men in the Defence Defence pag. 452. but to this very reason wherein standeth the pointe touching the maintenance and preseruation of vnitie he saith nothing Item there Iewel That vvho so euer is diuided from the Pope must be iudged an Heretique and that vvithout the obedience of him there is no hope of Saluation Confut. 306. b. Harding Who so euer is diuided not onely from the Pope but also from any other Catholique Bishoppe in faith ought to be iudged an Heretique As touching obedience Iohan. 21. whereas by Christe he is commaunded to Feede his Lambes and his sheepe and thereby hath commission to gouerne them how can he be saued from the rauening woolues who through disobedience refuseth to come into that Folde and to be fedde and guided of that high Pastor I confesse that in certaine cases besides faith a man may disobey the Pope and yet not be remoued from all hope of saluation My wordes for whiche you make so muche a doo are these vttered vpon occasion of your Apologie Confut. fol. 306. b. Ye put vs in minde to consider how that your selues are those priuate hil Aulters and darke groues For ye be they that stoppe the people from the commoÌ„ Temple of Christendom the Catholique Church out of which is no saluation the head whereof sitteth in Peters Chaire at Rome Item there Iewel And yet as though it vvere not sufficient for him so vainely to sooth a man in open errours he telleth vs also sadly and in good earnest that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop but also a kinge Confut. fol. 80. a. 305. b. Harding Neither haue I in any place soothed the Pope in open Errours but haue graunted that certaine Popes had their Errours either before they were called to that roume or also afterwarde holding them priuately and as priuate Doctours That the Pope erreth how is it denied But that by any publique decree geuen out to be holden and obserued of the Churche they euer mainteined or gaue assent or
Ye are like to whitted Sepulchres Matth. 23. Liers euil beastes slow bellies Tit. 1. God shal strike thee thou painted wal said S. Paule to Ananias Act. 23. O ye foolishe Galathians Galat. 3. False Apostles guileful workers 2. Cor. 11. The enemies of the Crosse of Christe whose bellye is their God Philip. 3. O ye stifnecked and vncircumcised in hartes and eares ye haue euer resisted the holy Ghost said S. Steuen vnto the Iewes Act. 7. As Iannes and Iambres withstode Moyses so these withstand the truth 2. Tim. 3. Hye minded proude blasphemous Ibidem Their worde creapeth forth like a canker 2. Tim. 2. Their tong is ful of deadly poison Iacob 3. These Dreamers defile the flesh despise rulers and speake euil of them that are in auctoritie Iudae As beastes whiche are without reason Woe be vnto them For they haue folowed the way of Cain and are vtterly geuen to the errour of Balaam for lucres sake and perish in the treason of Chore. Ibidem Why tempte ye me ye Ypocrites said Christe Matth. 22 Wo be vnto you Scribes and Pharisees Ypocrites Mat. 23 Wo be vnto you blinde guides Ibid. O ye fooles and blinde Ibid. Ypocrite first caste out the beame out of thine owne eye and then c. Matth. 7. It were not harde Christian Reader here to lay forth a greater heape of wordes gathered out of the Scriptures which M. Iewel reproueth in me as vncourteous and vnciuile and proceding altogether of choler But these few may suffice for shewe that if we consider wordes only and not the Circumstance of the sentence and the iuste cause why they were with such vehemencie vttered the holy Ghoste may seme also chargeable of vncourteous and vnciuile speache by whose prompting the Scriptures of God haue ben written If the matter of M. Iewels greuous accusation depende of wordes considered in them selfe onely the Scriptures haue wordes that being put a parte sownde more roughly then any yet by the written or by him noted And so farre is that pretensed fault in both Testamentes nolesse then in my bookes But if al be to be weighed by the sentences wherein suche woordes be placed and by the deserte of them in whose reproufe they be vttered as reason is it should then I appeale to al men of iudgement the dew circumstances and causes wel considered whether I haue at any time passed the bowndes of a zealous defender of the Catholique Religion whereof I make profession That the vse of sharpe speache is conuenient according to the desert of M. Iewel and of his felowes LEt the rehersal of my whole sentences with their circumstance in whiche the wordes be founde that doo so much offend be differred vntil anonne And here to turne thy tale vnto you M. Iewel and vnto your felowes lette it be lawful for me to come vnto the causes by whiche I was iustly moued so to write and to the very thinges them selfe for which ye deserue so to be written of The oddes betwixte M. Ievvel and them of his side and vs. and with such courtesie of wordes to be greeted Who be you M. Iewel and who be they of your side Who am I or rather who are we For of my selfe I am content no accompte be made but only as I apply myne endeuour to defende the Churche and the Catholique Faith by you impugned As for vs say the worst ye can of vs we are Catholiques By your owne confession your doctrine hath not benne in al Churches at al times taught and therefore ye haue tolde vs we knowe not what of your Church that it is inuisible secret vnknowen and lurketh in corners no man can tel where and therefore ye are not Catholique We remaine in that we haue receiued ye are departed from that ye receiued The doctrine for whiche ye make suche sturre is it not openly knowen to al from what men ye had it and how late ye learned it Where was this fifth Gospel so muche as whispered in any knowen corner of the worlde before that lewd Augustine Frier Martin Luther brake his vowe ranne out of his Cloister and yoked him selfe to his wanton Nonne Where was your Sacramentarie doctrine preached before Frier Huskin that new named him selfe Oecolampadius likewise brake his solemne promise to God forsooke his Religion and coupled him selfe to a young yoke fellowe Before their time who heard the sownde of your Gospel Where had ye any Dioces any Bishoppe any Church any Priest any Chappel any so much as a Parrish Clerke in the whole worlde Tel vs not as ye are woont of Wiklef Huss Ierome of Prague Berengarius Bertram and a few other which were but byles and botches in the Churche and be in no wise worthy the name of Churche Forgete not what you say in your Apologie that Luther and Zuinglius came first to the Gospel Remember ye cal that time the first appearing the spring and the first grasse as it were of your Gospel If it be so how be ye Catholique or how be ye of the Catholique Churche which is so called in respecte of the vniuersalitie of times Vincētius Lirinen places and personnes As for vs on the otherside we are hable to shew you the continuance of our faith and Doctrine by orderly successions of Bishops going vpward euen from those learned and holy Fathers whom for none other cause but only for the Catholique Faith of Christes Churche most vniustly ye kepe in Prison to S. Gregorie who sent godly Preachers to conuert the English people of our countrie vnto the Faith of Christe and from S. Gregorie further vpward vnto S. Peter and S. Paule that preached the Faith in Rome and consequently vnto Christe him selfe If we would speake vnto you in the person of the Catholique Church whereof we are a parte we might say vnto you those wordes of Tertullian spoken to Heretiques Mea est possessio olim possideo prior possideo Tertul. li. Praescript aduersus haereticos habeo origines firmas ab ipsis authoribus quorum fuit res Ego sum haeres Apostolorum The Scripture and the right sense of the Scripture is my possession I am in possession of olde I claime possession by former right The Churche continueth to the worldes ende vvithout al intermission Matt. 28 Iohan. 14 I haue the assured originals from the first authours by whom it was set forth It is I that am the Apostles heire The Churche M. Iewel as ye ought to knowe continueth from Christes Ascension vnto the ende of the worlde without intermission and without exception of any age or yeres Wil ye haue vs proue it What can we say if ye wil not beleeue Christe nor God him selfe I wil be with you saith Christe al daies vnto the ende of the worlde Againe I wil beseche my Father and he shal geue you an other conforter to remaine with you for euer the Spirite of truthe whiche the worlde can not receiue God saith to Christe in
vndoubted To this one argument M. Iewel you shal neuer be hable to answere truely and directly You adde yet farther Christe wil be euermore with his Churche yea though the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him It is true M. Iewel And therefore this being a matter impossible that the whole Churche of Rome should be hable to deface Christes Gospel or to defeate Christ of his promise it must needes folow that where you say the Pope hath blinded the whole worlde you haue said most vntruly and haue auouched that thing which by your owne confession in this place was not possible to be done Againe seing that though the whole Churche of Rome conspired against Christe yet Christe wil be euermore with his Churche and these many hundred yeres Christ hath had no other Churche then the Churche of Rome for the Pope you say hath blinded the whole worlde and D. Luther began to publish the Gospel a general darkenesse going before it must needes folowe that the same Church of Rome was the true Church of Christ that the said Church neuer coÌ„spired against Christ that the Pope neuer blinded nor was euer hable to blinde the whole worlde briefely that the same whiche you cal blindnesse was good sight and that which you cal darkenesse was cleare light Verely either so must it be or Christes promise must faile Of the which promise of Christ and of a number of other sayinges in the Psalmes in the Prophetes and in the Gospel affirming and confirming the same it hath ben largely and sufficiently treated in the foresaid Treatise intituled The Fortresse of our first Faith annexed to the Historie of venerable Bede of late translated into Englishe If you M. Iewel or any of your fellowes wil auoide this argument that proueth a knowen continuance of Christes Church answer to the first parte of that booke If you can not auoide that one Argument your newe doctrine is plainely proued to be false and heretical and the Faith of our Forefathers is plainely proued to be the Faith of the true and onely Catholike Churche of Christe in earth You pretende as if ye had aduantage for that I spake but of a thousand yeres For thus you inferre Iewel ibidem Pag. 32. But vvhy do you so much abate your reckening VVhy make you not vp your ful accompte of fifteene hundred three skore and sixe yeres as ye vvere vvont to doo Ye haue here liberally and of your selfe quite striken of fiue hundred three skore and sixe yeres Harding That we haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres as M. Iewel cauilleth You say vntruly M. Iewel The. 8. Chapt. I haue not striken of the first fiue hundred yeres c. But I and others doo God be praised defende and mainteine the Catholique Faithe no lesse by the Doctours and witnesses of the first fiue hundred yeres then by the Doctours and Witnesses of these last thousand yeres Yea Sir it is wel knowen to them that haue perused bothe our labours that you allege moe writers of these later ages by ten to one then either we doo of the same or your selfe doo of the first fiue hundred yeres It is wel knowen our writinges are confirmed with the authoritie of the Fathers of the firste fiue hundred yeres We allege very seldome the writers of these later ages condescending herein to your infirmities whiche through weakenes of Faith doo reiecte these later Fathers as too yonge and require to be persuaded onely by the Doctours and Councelles of the first sixe hundred yeres And herein we doo willingly omitte the greate aduantage whiche we might haue if we should presse you with the Writers of these later ages This is wel knowen M. Iewel to al that knowe any thing in matters of these common controuersies We haue Gods holy name be blessed largely and aboundantly prooued the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse the Popes Primacie the vse of Images the Confession of sinnes to the Prieste the Inuocation of Saintes the Praying for the dead the Churche seruice in the two learned tongues Greeke and Latine and such other matters by you nowe brought into Controuersie we haue sufficiently prooued them I saye by the Doctours and Councels of the first sixe hundred yeres wittingly and willingly a very fewe places excepted absteining from the Writers of these last thousand yeres not bicause we refuse them or contemne them but bicause ye refuse them that we might seeme to vse the better meanes to persuade you whose couersion we seeke and labour for You say therefore vntruly that I haue liberally of my selfe quite striken of fiue hundred yeres c. The cause why I named but these last thousand yeres your selfe I am sure are not ignorant of But so it liked you to dallye and to answer a most earnest and important question with trifling toyes cauilles and wranglinges It was your exception M. Iewel and prescription of the first sixe hundred yeres It was your lewde contempte of these later ages It was your blasphemous assertion condemning the Churche of Christe so many hundred yeres of Idolatrie superstition and palpable darckenes which made me to chalenge you with Christes promise for the Continuance of his Churche these last thousand yeres If you denie this to be your opinion of the last thousand yeres beside your prescription insinuating no lesse of the nine hundred beside your former wordes of Luthers first publishing of the Gospel for so you terme your wicked Heresies your owne wordes in this place doo signifie no lesse For thus you saie euen in this page Iewel Verely in the iudgement of the Godly fiue hundred of those first yeres are more vvorthe then the vvhole thousand yeres that folovved aftervvarde Harding This comparison is odious The commendatioÌ„ of the first fiue hundred yeres in comparison of the later ages and litle becommeth a ChristiaÌ„ maÌ„ If you speake of learning and vertue though the comparison be odious yet is it more tolerable For learning and vertue may seeme to haue excelled more in those former ages then in these later specially vertue and holines of life when as the bloude that Chriâ—â— shed for redemption of the worlde seemed to mennâ—â— hartes yet fresh and warme as in a place S. Augustine writeth And therefore those tymes brought foorth moe Martyrs As touching learning it muste also be confessed that moe Doctours in both tongues then excelled The north partes of the world coÌ„uerted in these later ages This without preiudice to the learned Bishoppes and Godly people of Christendom in so longe a time afterwarde might perhappes to the commendation of Antiquitie be graunted Howbeit it is not vnknowen to the learned that in these later thousand yeres the Northe partes of the worlde being many large and sauage Countries haue benne brought to the faith of Christe many Bishoppes and Monkes of excellent learning and of great perfection of life haue flourished many Martyrs also haue suffred as al histories and Chronographies doo
to conclude with S. Augustine thus he saith speaking of S. Peter Quis nescit illum Apostolatus principatum August de Baptis cōtra Donatist lib. 2. cap. 1. cuilibet Episcopatui praeferendum Who knoweth not that that Princehood of the Apostleship is to be preferred before euery Bishops state Where is this great blasphemie becomme that M. Iewel so horribly layth to our charge What wil he accuse al these holy and learned Fathers of Blasphemie I hope though he spare not vs yet he wil be good Maister vnto S. Bernard S. Gregorie S. Augustine S. Chrysostome and to Eusebius As for S. Leo who is plainest of al I dare not here to name least I should seeme to reuerse M. Iewels high iudgemēt whom he hath so late here before by his solēne sentence cōdemned Yet it maie please him to be aduertised by vs that Titles which appertaine to God him selfe when they are in their dewe order and degree geuen vnto menne Exod. 7. Psal 81. conteine no blasphemie Moyses is called in Scripture the God of Pharao And rulers in the Psalmes are called also by the name of Goddes Iewel As for the other authoritie of S. Cyprian M. Harding saith vvee vnderstood it not and therefore he vvilleth vs to looke better vpon our bookes The Councel is good c. Harding The origen of vnitie beginneth of one who is Peter by S. Cyprian The popes preeminence proued by S. Basil The .35 Chapt. The fruiteles paine you tooke in laying forth so many places of S. Cyprian together and al to the ende menne should conceiue you vnderstode your booke doth geue vs sufficient witnesse that either of malice you wil not or of ignorance you can not declare to what ende al those places doo perteine If you had ioined to these places of S. Cyprian whiche you allege but one place of the same S. Cyprian which you durst not talke of least al your confuse heape should stande you in no steede the case had ben so plaine that the shame would haue benne yours S. Cyprians whole purpose is to shew Christian menne not by long talke of argumentes but by the marking of two thinges that is to saie the Churches receiued Doctrine and the Head of the Churche how to staie them selues in the right faith and vnitie when so euer Schismes and Heresies shal happen to rise For this purpose he speaketh of the Churche and of the vnitie of the Church whiche vnitie among diuers other thinges doth principally stand in the hauing of one Bishop to be Head ouer al. Although saith S. Cyprian Christe geue equal power after his resurrection to al the Apostles and saie Cyprianus de Simplic Praelatorum as my Father hath sent me euen so doo I sende you receiue ye the holy Ghost if ye shal remitte any mannes sinnes they shal be remitted vnto him if ye shal retaine any mannes sinnes they shal be reteined yet to the ende he would make Vnitie manifest he ordeined by his authoritie the beginning or origine of the same vnitie to beginne from one to witte from Peter The reste of the Apostles were the same that Peter was endewed with like felowship both of honour and of power but the beginning riseth forth from vnitie to witte frō Peter that the Churche may be shewed to be one Hitherto S. Cyprian This place of S. Cyprian doth sufficiently proue not only that Christe beganne his Church from Peter but also why he would there should be only one from whom he might beginne his Churche and not those many of whom M. Iewel dreameth bicause saith he he would haue his Churche shewed one The plaine meaning whereof can be none other but that the Vnitie of the Churche can by no other waie so conueniently stand as by the hauing of one visible Bishop head ouer al. As the multitude of Priestes Hieron ad Euagrium of whom S. Hierome speaketh in his Epistle to Euagrius was driuen to choose one to be Bishop emong them in Alexandria that was S. Markes see to auoide Schismes that would haue rent and torne the Churche asundre and to keepe Vnitie euen so S. Cyprian sawe that emong the multitude of Bishoppes the case being like to auoide Schismes and to keepe vnitie Hiero. aduersus louinianum lib. 1. it was necessarie one Bishop to be placed head ouer al. The which thing S. Hierome saith Christ did when he ordeined Peter Head of the Apostles to take awaie occasion of Schisme As touching the place of S. Basil alleged for the gouernement by a multitude of Pastours if M. Iewel meane Basil ad Neocaesarienses that S. Basil thought the multitude of Pastours should rule without hauing of one Head he is farre deceiued and yet that must he meane otherwise that place maketh nothing for him But that vntrue meaning of his needeth no other wise to be controlled then by S. Basil him selfe writing thus to S. Athanasius Basiliusin epistol ad Athanasium pag. 549. In Graeco codic Frobe◠Visum est vtile scribere ad Episcopum Romanum vt consideret res nostras iudicij sui decretum interponat vt quoniam de communi Conciliari Decreto aliquos inde huc emandari difficile est ipse sua authoritate negotium componat c. It hath seemed good vnto vs to write vnto the Bishop of Rome that he wil consider of our cases or * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 visite vs for so the Greke maie be translated and to determine the matter by his sentēce that for as much as it is hard for any to be sent hither from thence by authoritie of a common and Synodical Decree 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he take the matter into his owne hande and by his authoritie strike the stroke Why should S. Basil being a Greeke of the East Churche thinke it conuenient to write to the Bishop of Rome being in the Weast to consider of or to visite them of the East for so to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth their state and to sende foorth a Decree of his iudgement and to geue sentence onlesse he agnised the prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome whiche your felowes denie Verely by this place it appeareth euidently of what iudgemēt S. Basil was touching the Bishop of Rome his Supreme Authoritie in rule The more ye stirre this matter the more it turneth stil to your owne shame Iewel Pag. 115. The vvhole body of Christendome vvas diuided into foure Patriarkeshippes vvhereof the first vvas Rome Harding Search out M. Iewel The .36 Chapt. by whome was the whole Body of Christendome diuided into foure Patriarkshippes whereof the first and chiefe was Rome and why Rome was the first and not rather the second or third thereby shal you perceiue how your selfe vnwares are taken in your owne snare In Praefat. Nicen. Concil In the Preface of the Nicene Councel we read that the Churche of Rome was preferred before al other not
lyes and gloses and also an vnprofitable bestowing of good time Iewel They are gonne from Faith to infidelitie from Christe to Antichrists Harding Which they M. Iewel Did he speake of the Popeâ—… of Rome M. Ievvel odiously layeth that to the Bishops of Rome vvhiche vvas spoken generally by vvaie of coÌ„plaint of al euil ChristiaÌ„s You say touching the Church of Rome c. And yet now you bring forth that which was generally spoken and that by waie of complaint of al euil Christians and not namely of the Bisshops of Rome Againe how are they gonne from faith to infidelitie and from Christ to Antichrist Verely bicause they are gonne froÌ„ God to Epicure that is to say bicause many of them liue as if they had neither faith nor Christ nor God Last of al he saith not they are gonne as you falsifie his wordes but with a moderation would God they were not gonne He sheweth him selfe to feare lest they be gonne he taketh not vpon him boldly to affirme it as you doo Iewel And yet al other thinges failing they must holde onely by Succession and only bicause they sit in Moyses Chaire they must claime the possession of the vvhole This is the right and vertue of their Succession Harding Is it not reason if secular men hold their kingdomes landes goodes and rightes by Succession yea when al other rightes forces and vertues faile that Gods Ministers if they had nothing els leaft should hold stil their owne also by Succession It is wel knowen that the Bishops of Rome haue more then only Succession For they make good Decrees they geue answer to great consultations they cal General and Prouincial Councelles they execute the Canons of them and send forth Preachers as of late they haue done euen vnto the new found Indies beside many other godly and vertuous actes which they exercise for the saluation of their own soules and of the people But what if they had nothing but Succession Would you then haue men forsake their folde and Church Did Isaias so did Esdras so did Iudas Machabeus so did Zacharias so did S. Iohn Baptist so Can you deuise the Popes to be worse then Caiphas or the Pharisees Math. 23. And yet Christ willed them to be obeied albeit they had litle els beside Succession It is this Succession M. Iewel which shal lie in your and in your companions waie at the dredful day of accompte It shal not be demaunded of euery man why he studied not the Scriptures which most men haue not learned to reade But it shal be demaunded why they haue no faith nor charitie No faith by forsaking the open and knowen Succession no charitie by breaking vnitie Euery man seeth Succession ignorance can not be pretended and euery man shal be iudged by it concerning his Faith Iewel The vvordes of Tertullian M. Harding vvhich you haue here alleged vvere spoken of certaine your ancient fathers that had raised vp a nevv religion of them selues as you haue also done vvithout either vvorde of God or example of the Apostles and holy fathers Harding It is happy that at the length Here at length M. Ievvel beginneth to ansvver my vvordes but how consider you beginne to answere my wordes We shal now see how wel you touche Tertullians meaning You say his wordes were spoken of certaine my ancient Fathers That can not be so For none are in this behalfe my fathers but those who loue wel the Succession of Bishops But Tertullian spake of those De Prascription aduersus Haret that esteemed the Succession of Bishops as litle as you do And therefore they are your fathers of whom he speaketh that is to say they are Heretikes of whom he speaketh For in dede no heretike can abide Succession bicause they would faine iustle out the olde Succession to schuffle in their new Intrusion You say the men of whom Tertullian speaketh raised vp a new Religion of them selues and therein you say truth You adde as I also haue donne but therein you belye me for ye are not hable to laye any one point of doctrine to my charge wherein I follow not that old Succession which abhorreth al new Religion Let al the worlde iudge who raiseth vp a newe Religion you or I. You say the Heretiques of who Tertullian spake raised vp a new Religion without the Worde of God example of the Apostles or of holy Fathers If you meane without the true meaning of Gods worde you say truth and then you also are without Gods worde bicause you are without the Church whereunto Gods worde with the true interpretation thereof was geuen and we are not without it bicause we conteine our selues within the Churche But if you meane that these heretikes did not sounde the wordes of the Scriptures in their lippes as falsely and withal as fast as you doo then you say not truly For Tertullian in that booke doth shew that the Heretikes also appealed to the Scriptures Tertullian in Prascript aduersus haeret and he answered that to striue with heretiques vpon the scriptures was a thing of vncertaine victorie bicause one saith it is not holy Scripture an other saith it is holy Scripture one saith it is meant thus an other saith it is â—â—â—â—t otherwise But saith Tertullian the interpretation of the Scriptures belongeth to them It booteth not to striue vvith heretiques about the Scriptures who haue the true faith and he concludeth that they haue the true faith who haue the perpetual Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne daies Scripturas obtendunt hac sua audacia statim quosdam mouent The Heretiques pretende to bring Scriptures for them selues and with that their impudencie forthwith they shake some And afterward Ibidem Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est aut parum certa Therefore we must not alwaies appeale vnto the Scriptures neither must we striue about them in which either no victorie at al or an vncertaine or verely not very certaine victorie is obteined Then sheweth he that heretikes of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures but onely the Catholiques Heretiques of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures TertulliaÌ„ Ibidem to whom the Apostles deliuered them and not them only but other thinges also viua voce by mouth and worde without writing Si hac ita sunt constat proinde omnem doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis matricibus et originalibus fidei conspiret veritati deputandam reliquam verò omnem doctrinam de mendacio praeiudicandam quae sapiat contra veritatem Ecclesiarum Apostolorum Christi Dei. If this be so then is it euident that al such doctrine as agreeth with those that are the Apostolique Churches the mother Churches and the original Churches of the faith is to be taken for true and that al other
doctrine is to be adiudged to come of lying as that which sauoureth against the truth of the Churches of the Apostles of Christ and of God Our doctrine proued to be true by the Successiō of the Apostolique Churche Now concerning our Churches it is euident that we agree with the original and mother Churches which were planted by the Apostles For we agree in faith with the Churche of Rome which was planted by the most blessed Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule and alwaies kepte her Succession til this present daie and therefore our doctrine is true But you agree in faith with no Churche at al now extant in the worlde which came from the Apostles and therefore your doctrine by the rule of Tertullian is false and lying Whiles he then disputed with Heretikes as we doo now with you he said either these Heretikes confesse that they beganne since the Apostles time and they are false teachers or if any of them dare intrude them selues into the Apostles age Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum then let them bring forth the beginninges or shew the original euidences of their Churches let them vnfold the order of their Bishops so ronning along from the beginning by Succession that he who is the first Bishop had for his founder and predecessour one of the Apostles or of the Apostolike men who continued til the ende with the Apostles in the same faith Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt For by this way the Apostolike churches do shew forth along their publike registers At length hauing brought forth the examples of the Churche of Smyrna and of the Churche of Rome and of other like Churches he concludeth thus confidenly Consingant tale aliquid Haeretic◠let the Heretiques feine some suche matter He bad them feme For he wel knewe in truth they coulde shew no suche Succession I haue then shewed that Tertullian spake not of Heretikes who lacked the pretense of Gods worde M. Ievvels Doctrine is proued by Tertulliā erroneus for lacke of Succession proued but of them who had no Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne age And one such Succession of Bishoppes in any one Church of al the worlde seing M. Iewel can not bring forth it remaineth that he is an Heretike and that his Doctrine is erroneus false and heretical Iewel Tertullian saith not vnto vs but vnto you and suche as you be let them shevv forth the Originals of their Churches Harding Is that al he saith M. Iewel Why went you not forth to the next wordes The Scrolles or rolles of Bishops names Let them vnfold the order of their Bishoppes He calleth it vnfolding bicause the Bishoppes names were vsed to be kept and written in order in long Rolles the whiche Rolles must be vnfolded when they are to be read He meant not therefore such Originals M. Iewel as you imagine to wit particular examples of this or that facte but he meant the Original copies or instrumentes and euidences of founding and planting of their Churche who it was that preached the Faith first vnto them and who was their first Bishop who the second who the third and so forth vntil the present time Iewel Euen so vve say vnto you shevv vs the Originals of your doctrine Harding You say not euen right so as Tertullian said For he called not for the Originals of Doctrine but of Churches Originals of Churches For by the Churches the Doctrine is knowen to be good or euil to be allowable or reproueable Iewel Shevv vs any one of the Apostles of Christe or of the learned Catholike Doctours of the Churche that euer said your priuate Masse Shevv one at the lest either Greeke or Latine Harding It was not that which Tertullian required He demaunded only for the Originals of Churches and for the order and Succession of Bishops But for that you durst not cal knowing that we could shew how S. Augustine conuerted vs being sent into England from S. Gregorie the Pope whiche Pope S. Gregorie succeded S. Peter in his Chaier Thus we can shew the Originals of our Churches bringing them from the Catholike Bishops whiche are yet aliue M. Ievvslyly diuerteth from the present matter to an other mater impertinent touching priuate Masse vpward vntil S. Peter But you are fallen away from the matter of Succession which only Tertullian presseth and are now come to demaunde of a particular facte whether any Apostle or olde Father euer said priuat Masse or no. I say al of them might haue said priuate Masse and that I proue by Tertullians reason and rule bicause the vse of saying priuate Masse came to vs time out of minde by Succession without any change or innouation noted therin by any storie or Chronicle And yet was ther neuer any strange or new thing receiued and vsed in the Churche but that great trouble came thereof as now there doth of your changing of Religion the whiche trouble of Churches and common Weales is at no time omitted in the stories of that age wherein it falleth But now seing the vse of saying priuat Masse came so peaseably to vs from hand to hand and no first author thereof can be shewed it is out of al controuersie that it was euer accompted a Godly and a lawful thing But what neede I now to repeate that I haue already written in that argument Answer that parte of my booke better to the purpose then yet ye haue donne whiche treateth of that point where many plaine euidences be brought forth of Sole Receiuing Sole Receiuing in the Primitiue Churche In my ansvvere Art 1. and likevvise in my first Reioindre Aug. Epi. 165. whiche Sole Receiuing is the onely thing for whiche you reproue priuate Masse as you cal it It is cleare that S. Chrysostom and certaine others said Masse and yet had no man to receiue with them as I haue other where declared I thinke not good now to fal into that Disputation againe and therefore here I wil cal you home to the present Argument of Succession Iewel Pag. 128. 129. S. Augustine saith of so many Bishops of Rome there could not one be found that had benne a Donatiste Euen so in like sorte say vve to you of al the same Bishops of Rome there can not be one found that euer agreed vvith M. Harding in saying Masse Or if there vvere any such shevv his name vvith other Circumstances vvhen and vvhere and vvho vvere vvitnesses of the doing Shevv vs your Originals M. Harding Confesse the Truth deceiue vs no longer It is a nevv deuise ye haue it only of your selues and not by Succession from the Apostles Harding You pretend to reason like S. Augustine as though he had reasoned vpon a particular facte and not vpon the Doctrine Euen so in like sorte say you and it is not euen so nor in like sorte S. Augustine concluded that the Donatistes were Heretikes S. Augustines
from his Prince the child from his father and the wife from her husband What is it then wherein your Predecessours if they had now liued and had seene it would not haue benne so wilful as we are They should haue seene in you Diuisions sectes factions pride wantonesse fleshly libertie crueltie murders treasons rebellions Churche robbinges and to be short al impietie and contempte of God Pride accompained with malice couetise and lecherie was the foundation A foule mouthed Frier as euer liued on the earth and a Nūne incestuously coupled together was the building that rose vp of your doctrine which to this daie goeth forward with like increase And yet if your Predecessours had seene that which we see they would forsooth haue ben astonned to see the heauenly fruites which these men bring foorth Iewel To be short vve succede the bisshops that haue ben before our dayes vve are elected consecrated confirmed and admitted as they vvere Harding Here is no lye at al. That I may speake of no other difference the Bishops whom you succeede were al confirmed by the bishop of Rome and so is none of you Iewel .. If they vvere deceiued in any thing vve succede them in the place but not in errour Harding By their place is meant specially their doctrine and beleefe which seing you haue not you are not their successour no more then Paulus Samosatenus the heretique was the Successour in S. Peters chaire in Antioche no more then Gregorius the Arian was S. Markes successour in Alexandria no more then al the Bisshops of Christendome are to be accompted the successours of the Heathnish Priestes which in the same Cities before worshipped Idols It is the Doctrine and place together which maketh the Succession and not the walles of the towne Churche or house alone Iewel They vvere our Predecessours but not the rules and standardes of our faith Harding As long as they remained in that vnitie of Doctrine which they receiued of the Apostles or of the Apostolike Churches as Tertullian doth wel shew so long they are presidentes and their continual Succession is a good rule and standard of our faith For they are pillers of the Church the Successours of the Apostles Luc. 10. whom he that heareth heareth Christ Now when those that breake the Vnitie which was in the Church before come to sit in any bishops Chaire they in deede are no presidentes no rules nor standardes of our Faith bicause the Apostle biddeth vs obserue and beware of them 2. Thess 3. that walke inordinatly and make dissensions For the Church of God hath no suche custome to striue 1. Cor. 11. and to resiste at once al the Bishops of the whole Church as Martin Luther did Iewel 131. Or rather to set apart al comparison of persons the doctrine of Christ this day M. Harding succedeth your doctrine as the daye succedeth the night as the light succedeth darknesse and as the truth succedeth errour Harding VVhat is the daie vvhat is the night in M. Ievvelles iudgement That is to say your doinges and proceedinges are the daye the light and the truth but the Catholique faith whiche we teache and al our predecessours in al the worlde haue euer taught is the night the darkenesse and errour But sir if your doctrine be daye or light and ours night or darkenesse how chaunceth it that our doctrine was euer openly seene in the whole worlde from the Apostles time vnto these daies in so many Bishoppes throughout al nations teaching al one thing and yours was not sene by your owne confession for nine hundred yeres together This was a long night pardy M. Iewel Is it the nature of the light not to be seene Who sawe not our Altars our external Priestes and our Sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ in the whole world from East to Weast Malac. 1. as Malachias prophecied and the euent shewed But your no Aulters your no external Priestes and your no sacrificing of Christes body briefly the Imaginatiue face of your Negatiue Religion or rather of your no Religion who could see before that now of late ye pulled downe our Aulters to shewe howe ye had no Aulters and before violently ye bannished our Priestes and draue them out of their Churches to shewe howe ye had no Priestes and denied Christes Real Presence to shew how ye had no Sacrifice Our Munkes and Friers from S. Ihon Baptistes dayes and from the tyme of those that liued a very holy life in Egypte frō the time of S. Marke the Euangeliste vnto the time of S. Basil in the East of S. Augustine S. Benedicte S. Frauncis and S. Dominike in the Weast had replenished Christendom with Cloisters and Monasteries to those our Monkes I say al the worlde beareth witnesse But your no monkes Renegates and Apostates liued in Turkie or in Hel for in the landes of Christendom no such doctrine shined none suche was heard of whiche should auouche that it is not lawful by Gods grace to make a vowe that a man wil renounce the riches and pleasures of the worlde and liue continently vnder the obedience of a spiritual Father If your doctrine be the light and the daye howe commeth it to passe that not so muche as one Churche or chappel in the whole earth can be named where before these fiftie yeres it was vnlawful to occupie holy Chrisme in bishopping of childerne or to saye Masse or to teache the seuen Sacramentes to praie for the dead to celebrate the Churche Seruice in the Latine tongue to desire the Apostles Martyrs and the other Saintes to praie for vs al which thinges now you accompt for vnlawful Can the light be so darkened that it should be vnknowen vnto you whether ye had any auncestours at al or no We can if neede were set forth a rolle of our Pastours and Bishops from this daye vpward vnto S. Peters time in such sort as you shal name no one time of whiche we are not hable to saye vnto you these many prelates and Pastours were knowen to preache Christes gospel at once in diuers nations Marcke M. Iewel what I saye to you and consider of it wel For herein your vtter Confusion appeareth that ye are not hable to bring the continuance of your doctrine vp vnto S. Peters time without interruption albeit you should be bounde to name for euery fiftie yeres in Order but one man in the whole worlde at once Thinke of it with al your witte and geue me an instance There are since Christes time fifteen hūdred yeres passed Geue me for euery hundred yeres two Catholike men one liuing after the other whom you may iustifie to haue ben of your faith holding that doctrine whiche you holde and so geue me in al but thirtye menne liuing and knowen to haue lyued eche of them about fiftie yeres one after the other and for my part I wil release you of your bond of subscription Such a lightsome Churche ye haue that
that there is no succession in doctrine Now I saie ronne ouer al the Bisshops of Rome and you can saie of neuer a one this man coÌ„ming into his Predecessours See did oppugne his doctrine or preached with the Churche of Romes contentation against that which was in vse before So that in Rome al thinges are euen at this day concerning faith as S. Peter leafte them For euery man hath agreed in outward Decree senteÌ„ce and profession with al the predecessours and successours Iewel Pag. 132. S. Bernard saith Quid prodest si canonicè eligantur In concil Remen non canonicè viuant VVhat auaileth it if they be chosen in order and liue out of order Harding It auaileth nothing to the euil liuer but yet it auaileth muche to him that obeieth the good and true doctrine of the euil teacher Iewel So saith S. Augustine Ipsum characterem multi lupi Cont. Donatist lib. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur caâ—es Character vvhat it signifieth in the Sacraments lupis imprimunt The outvvarde marke or right of a bisshop many geue to vvolues and be vvolues them selues Harding By Character is not meant an outward marke but rather an inwarde marke and print which through the receiuing of certaine Sacramentes is imprinted in the soules of them who receiue them of whiche sorte are Baptisme Confirmation and holy Orders And those sacramentes being once receiued caÌ„ not be repeated or be againe receiued of the same person For the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud although it be an outward signe yet it leaueth not any Character or suche inward print in the soule as may be no more repeated But letting that errour passe of the true interpretation of this worde Character I graunt that Heretikes may baptize heretikes euen without the Churche and the Baptisme shal stand although it be vnlawfully ministred What maketh that against the Suceession of Bishops It rather proueth that seing the Sacramentes may be ministred if not to saluation of them that are of discretion yet truly and really without the true Churche there must be an other rule taken to know the true Church by besides the administration of Sacramentes And that true and certaine rule is the perpetual Succession of the See Apostolike Iewel Pag. 132. Therefore the auncient father Irenaus geueth vs this good counsel Eis qui sunt in Ecclesia presbyteris obedire oportet Iren. lib. 4. ca. 43. qui successionem habent ab Apostolis qui cum episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundùm beneplacitum patris acceperunt It becommeth vs to obey those Priestes in the Churche vvhich haue their succession from the Apostles and together vvith the Succession of their bishoprikes according to the good vvil of God the Father haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truthe Harding Al this maketh against you M. Iewel For seing you can shew no such Priestes hauing their Succession from the Apostles and hauing receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth whom ye doo obeye it is certaine that ye haue not the gifte of the truthe among you On the other side seing we haue Priestes that is to say Bishoppes of Rome who are also Priestes which haue their SuccessioÌ„ from the chiefe and most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule and seing such Priestes and Bishops keeping stil the same faith and doctrine from man to man haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the truth according to the good wil of God the Father doubtelesse the vndoubted marke of the truth is with vs only and not with you at al who haue no Succession at al of any Priestes and much lesse of any suche Priestes that succede lineally from the Apostles them selues Iewel 132. S. Cyprian being likevvise charged for dissenting from his predecessours Lib. 2. epist 3. ansvvereth thus Si quis de antecessoribus meis c. If any of my predecessours haue not obserued and kepte the same that our Lorde hath taught vs both by his example and also by his coÌ„maundement his simplicitie may be pardoned but we if we doo the like can hope for no pardon being nowe admonished and instructed of our Lorde Harding Cough vp man it wil choke you Phy. vvhat a fowle corruption is this Lib. 2. epist 3. if you let it tarry within your throte Here is but halfe the bone there is yet in S. Cyprian no ful point it foloweth in the same sentence Vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundùm quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We can hope for no pardon who are now admonished and instructed of our Lorde that we should offer our Lordes chalice mixed with wine accordingly as our Lorde offered the same Either M. Iewel tooke this saying of S. Cyprian vpon the Germaine credite as he found it noted in their bookes and then his false brethren deceiued him or els he wrote it out of S. Cyprian himselfe and then his studie and wil was to deceiue vs. He would ful gladly haue geuen vs an authoritie that we might forsake the example of our Predecessours but he was loth we should see the thing wherewith the authoritie was exemplified For if at any time he say al he is sure to speake against him selfe and no wonder because he speaketh against the truth and euerie good saying euermore agreeth with the trtuh First he corrupteth S. Cyprian in putting in meis for nostra my predecessours in stede of our predecessours For S. Cyprian speaketh not of his owne Succession but of what soeuer Priest or Bishoppe that liued before his time Againe S. Cyprian spake not of any such custome as had ben generally vsed of al Bishops for then it had ben of ful authoritie but of that which some one man vsed priuatly and without keeping the lawe of Succession And therefore S. Cyprian said Si quis if any man Thirdly the thing he spake of was that some were said to offer water alone in our Lordes supper and not wine withal Now saith he if any before our time haue vsed to offer water and not wine mingled with water wel he may be pardoned by our Lordes mercie but we that are admonished and instructed to offer our Lordes chalice mingled with wine that is to say consisting not of water alone but of water and wine mingled together we caÌ„ not be pardoned except we mingle water with wine and so do offer our Lordes Chalice as he him selfe did offer it Nowe applie this geare Christian Reader to our new brethrens deedes Do they offer our Lordes Chalice at al Or do they graunt that our Lord in his Supper offered it Do they mingle water with wine at the time of consecrating the mysteries If they do neither of both what folie yea what madnesse was it for M. Iewel to bring foorth these wordes of S. Cyprian thereby to accuse him selfe and his owne Communion as not obseruing that whiche our Lorde commaunded to be obâ—â—rued It is a worlde to see how these men applye the witnesses of
benne halfe in a phrenesie you might haue learned L. NaÌ„ ad ad ea ff de legibus ff de regu lis iuris that ex ijs quaeraro accidâ—nt lages non fiunt of those thinges that happen seldome lawes are not made And Quae propter necessitatem recepta sunt non debent in argumentum trahi those thinges that are receiued for necessitie ought not to be drawen to an argument or president to be followed Wherefore â—â—ither vpon the doinges of the Emperours in that great and lamentable schisme of the Church neither vpon Zabarella you can builde that Bishoppes may ordinarily be conuented before a ciuil Magistrate in ecclesiastical causes But sir seing you thought it conuenient for your purpose to vse the authoritie of Zabarella although you haue fowly falsified and misreported his wordes tel vs by what reason you maie refuse his authoritie if we can allege it against you He saith in the same treatie that you allege Papa est vniuersalis Episcopus Zabarella M. Ievvels ovvne doctor alleged agaiÌ„st M. Ievvel Papa non habet superiorem Papa habet iurisdictionem potestatem super omnes de iure Sedes Apostolica errare non potest The Pope is the vniuersal Bishop The Pope hath no superiour The Pope hath iurisdiction and power ouer al by lawe The Apostolique See can not erre Why admitte you not this Is it reason that you should admitte an authours saying the whiche he spake and allowed in a case of necessitie for auoiding of a greater danger and not admitte the same authours saying in the same treatie whiche he speaketh according to receiued and approued doctrine of the Catholique Church Aske your aduocate L. Si quis Cod. de testibus and he wil tel you that reason and lawe faith That si quis vsus fuerit testibus ijdemque testes producantur aduersus eum in alia lite non licebit personas eorum excipere If one vse witnesses in a cause and the same witnesses be brought against him in an other controuersie it is not lawful for him to make exception against their personnes And if either reason or lawe could preuaile where heresie hath entred you should not onely admitte this but also that whiche he saith in an other place â—â—â—â—stas 〈…〉 immediate pendat à Deo Ioan. 21. per illa verba Pasce 〈…〉 Papa habet potestatem supra omnes quic omnes sunt â—â—â—s Papae vicem Dei gerit in terris Zabarella in ClemeÌ„t de SenteÌ„t reiudicata cap. pastoralis Ibidem in Clement de magistris cap. Inter. de Sentent excommu cap. ex frequeÌ„tib The power of the Pope dependeth immediatly of God by those wordes feede my sheepe The Pope hath power ouer al bicause al be sheepe The Pope beareth the person of God in earth For he spake this with as good aduise as he spake the other And this is generally allowed and that but in a case Wherefore if his authoritie be good in the one ought it not to be good in the other Now therefore M. Iewel I reporte me to your indifferent iudgement how true it is that you saie that a Prince or a ciuil magistrate maie lawfully cal a Priest before him to his owne seate of iudgement and that a Bishop maie be conuented before the Magistrate as his lawful and superiour iudge in ecclesiastical causes No one example or sentence that ye haue yet alleged doth proue that vaine assertion of yours Neither could ye haue had any aduantage by them if ye had truely reported their wordes and declared the circumstances why and wherefore they were spoken But that liked you not Wherefore referring your corruption and false dealing in these matters of weight to the judgement of God and examination of the indifferent and wise I conclude against you with S. Augustine S. Ambrose S. Chrysostome and al other Catholique Fathers that it is not conuenient Extr. de Maiorit obed cap. 2. in marg nor lawful for a king to cal priestes before him to his owne seat of Iudgement as their superiour in ecclesiastical causes As for the note glosed in the Decretalles which ye bring to proue that priestes are exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction by the Popes policie and the princes consent and not by the worde of God we tel you that suche glosed notes declare you to be a very Gloser and argue that your stoare is farre spent when you rest vpon such marginal glosed notes Were it graunted which in no case we graunt that Bisshoppes and priestes were exempted from the Emperours iurisdiction in ecclesiastical causes onely by the Popes policie and consent of princes for confirmation whereof they haue made diuers lawes and geuen out large priuileges yet these lawes standing vnreapealed and priuileges vnauthorized they can not be conuented lawfully before the ciuil magistrate For it standeth not with the Maiestie of a prince to doo against his owne lawes and breake the priuileges by him selfe graunted to others before he hath with as mature aduise and consideration reuoked them as he did first graunte them That the Canonistes are wrongfully charged by the Apologie with teaching the people that Simple Fornication is no sinne The 15 Chapter The wordes of the Apologie Defence Pag. 357. They be the Popes ovvne Canonistâ—â— vvhiche haue taught the people that Fornication betvven single foâ—â—â— iâ— no sinne Harding A sclaunder vttered by the Apologie against the Canonistes not recanted in the Defence touching the thing but only touching the errour of the name IN my CoÌ„futation I saie that this is a greuous offence and worthy to be pounished in processe I saie to the makeâ—s of the Apologie How proue ye it They allege for it one Iohn de Magistris How be it M. Iewel hath recanted that errour and confesseth him selfe to haue ben deceiued For he graunteth it was Martinus de Magistris whom he meant or should haue meant He should doo wel to recant diuers other the like his errours For he hath not only ben deceiued by his note bookes or his Notegatherers in naming Iohn de Magistris for Martinus de Magistris but also in the names of sundrie other menne as it shal be declared in the nexte Chapter But touching the sclaunder of the Canonistes if Martinus de Magistrâ—â— had so taught yet the matter is not cleare for he wâ—â— no Canoniste but a Schoole Doctor of Diuinitie Againâ— he â—â—â—â—ht not the people as our Maisters of the Apologie â—â—e but onely wrote of that matter after the Scholastical manner from vnderstanding whereof the peoples simple capacitie is farre of Wel let these three errours Lyes or ouersightes be â—inâ—â—ed at Hitherto the Canonistes are not touched but sclaundered What shal we answer for Martinus de Magistris Certainely neither that Doctour taught either the people or any other person that vngodly and false Doctrine Certaine it is that in this Treatie De Temperantia quaestione 2. he taught the contrarie where
his quotations to be in my said two Bookes whiche are not there in deede altogether in that order and meaning as he vntruly hath alleged them I proue his dealing herein partely to be agreable to his other false demeanour and partely that good and iust causes there were why I should writing against him vse suche order of language Furthermore bicause he woulde the great and manifolde Vntruthes with whiche I charged him to seeme no Vntruthes at al but that al is the Gospel what so euer commeth from his Mouthe and whereas for proufe thereof he hath set forth a View of his Vntruthes the least of al that he could espie by me noted against him and pretendeth to iustifie the same his least Vntruthes in the said View I haue made an answere to that View of Vntruthes and there doo shewe manifestly specially in the chiefe pointes where errour is most perilous that he was truely and iustly charged with those Vntruthes and that for ought he hath yet said in Defence of them he remaineth stil chargeable with the same as before This muche I haue perfourmed in the first Booke After this in foure bookes folowing I detecte his Errours Lies Cauilles shiftes Sclaunders and sundrie vntrue matters founde in the firste and seconde parte of his Defence And in respecte thereof I cal the Treatie A Detection of sundrie foule errours lies sclaunders c. At length hauing tried by very certaine experience and exacte view of the whole Booke that there was no ende of lying what place so euer in reading my eie lighted vppon I thought it most profitable and most agreable with my profession to let passe thinges of smal importance the handeling of whiche serued him specially to scoffe to vtter vile matter againste the Churche and to fil vp his Booke in tended at the beginning to be made greate and to treate of the Articles of Doctrine in defence of the Truthe and to confute what he hath brought to the contrarie Among whiche Articles of doctrine of some I haue treated briefly as being alreadie treated of in my Confutation and otherwheres of some at good length and with more diligence as of Succession and of the vnlawful Marriages of Priestes and al other Votaries wherein he is very large and copious of Doctours sayinges of al sortes but vtterly destitute of any one saying that maketh cleerely for his parte In the ende I doo most euidently disproue and refel what he was hable to bring for Defence of two pointes which he is not ashamed to affirme seming to me the one very false the other very sclaunderous The first is as he auoucheth them that matters of faith and Ecclesiastical causes are to be iudged by the Ciuile Magistrate The other is that the Papistes haue taught that simple Fornication is no sinne How weake proufes he bringeth for the one and for the other and yet how shamelesly he goeth about to prooue them by conference of bothe our Treaties it shal appeare Withal there I haue added a Comparison of Errours in mistaking names of menne bookes Chapters c. with whiche M. Iewel chargeth me and I him Matters let passe vvith treating vvhereof the Defence is grovven to a Huge Volume Thus haue I declared in fewe the Summe as it were and Order of this Treatie As for sundrie other matters as of forged Scriptures of the doctrine of Deuilles so he calleth the forbidding of Priestes Monkes Friers and Nunnes to marrie of the fruites of single life whereof he laith out great stoare of filthy sayinges of S. Iames Epistle whether it be Canonical Scripture of sundrie ancient Traditions now growen out of vse of the Fourmes and Accidentes whereat he scoffeth like a Vice plaier of the number of the Sacraments of the Churche which we defende to be seuen he affirmeth to be but two or els so many as the thinges be vnto which the name of Sacrament is by any Writer applied which are very many of the Faith of Infantes of their new found Imaginatiue Faith or rather phantastical Imaginatiō that eateth the bodie and drinketh the bloud of Christ of the Popes Dispensations of dissensions among the Fathers of Nominales and Reales of Thomistes and Scotistes of diuersitie of religious persons Apparel wherein he saith they put great holinesse of the variance betwen the Lutherās and the Zuinglians of the fable of Dame Iohane the woman Pope of the Marble Image lying in the high way at Rome of the stoole of easement of Porphyrie stoane at Lateran of Athenes and Rome whether they were Vniuersities in the time this Dame Iohane is feyned to haue liued in of the vicious life of Petrus Aloisius Duke of Parma and Placentia of Iohn Diazius death of the slaughter of the Boures of Germanie that tooke weapons against the nobilitie there prouoked by the preaching of Luther and his scholers of Constantines Donation of Poison ministred in the Sacrament as he reporteth feined fables for stories of great soothe of the abomination of desolation of the state of the Church of Rome of Antichrist of the mistaking of Cardinal Hosius of their pretensed burning of the Scriptures of S. Augustine the Apostle of the English Nation that he was a wicked man of Priestes keeping of Concubines of Images of Latine Praiers and Churche Seruice of Comparison of learning betwene the Catholiques and the Protestantes of Rome whether it be Babylon of summoning of Councelles of the Stewes in Rome whereof gladly he vttereth muche talke of kissing the Popes foote of the Popes hurling of Franciscus Daldulus fast tied in chaines vnder his table there to gnaw boanes with his Dogges of the Popes Bridle and Stirop to be holden by Princes of Pope Hildebrandes surmised wicked deedes as they fable of the Popes treadding on the Emperours necke of the Pope whether he be euer holy of the Popes Exactions of the Cheast in the Popes bosom whether the Pope be God of the Popes power feined to be ouer Angels whether the Pope can commit Simonie whether the Pope be King of Kinges whether the Pope be aboue general Councels whether the Pope maie erre or no whether the Pope be a Kinge Of these and of a great many moe suche matters whereof some be lothesom some be fabulous vaine and friuolous some be false sclaunderous and spiteful some blasphemous some alreadie sufficiently treated of briefly al tending vnto the contempt of the Catholique Religion as M. Iewel handleth them in which matters he hath vttered the stoare of his learning Of these I saie I haue said nothing much disaduantaging my selfe thereby and the common cause which I defend for so much as in the making vp of his great Booke with heaping together these ministerly matters he hath vttered as he doth euery where els good stoare of most euident and grosse Lies of which his owne frendes and best fauourers in case thei were detected would be ashamed These forenamed be the thinges which I haue briefly handled and these other and
them selues also for auoiding superstition maie surceasse and be put awaie where the thing signified is perfourmed and sufficiently beleeued And so is Baptisme like to be quite abolished with other Signes and Ceremonies For Caluine their new Apostle of Geneua teacheth that if we were mindeful yenough of Christes Death al the Sacramentes were superfluous Caluin in â— Cor. 11. I praie God in this point I be not a true Prophete Defence 150. M. Iewel laboureth al that he can in the Defence to discharge Caluin of this perilous Doctrine wherewith I burden him in my Confutation But when he hath said al he hath lost his labour bicause he coÌ„meth not to the point and dissembleth that Caluine euer said it And so he maie beginne that matter again He shal do wel to make Caluin in Antidoto to agree with Caluin in his coÌ„mentaries vpon S. Paules Epistles where he teacheth expressely that in case of sufficient remembrance of Christes Death al the Sacramentes be superfluous Whiche I gather not out of Caluines wordes by a fonde collection as M. Iewel beareth the Reader in hande but I shew it to be Caluines owne saying and for trial I directe the Reader vnto the place Concerning the Godhed of the holy Ghoste I moued no Quarel at al. The Godhed of the holy Ghoste Pag. 90. Confutat 41. b. The proceeding of the holy Ghoste Yet in the Defence of the Apologie he beareth menne in hande that I denie the holy Ghoste may be proued to be God by expresse Scripture For these be his wordes You saie M. Harding that the Godhed of the holy Ghost can not be proued by expresse wordes of the Scriptures and thereof ye saie ye are right sure This is as false as true it is that the holy Ghoste is God Reade my wordes who wil he shal finde me true and M Iewel false Mary as touching the Article of the holy Ghoste whereas the Authours of the Apologie saie it procedeth from both the Father and the Sonne whiche is most true Some thinges are to be belieued for which vve haue no expresse Scripture in consideration of this pointe of this pointe only I saie whiche is parte of the whole Article and not of the Godhed I saie in my Confutation that they haue no expresse Scripture for it nor any of the first foure Generall Councelles and that therefore we are bound of necessitie to beleeue somewhat whiche is not expressely mencioned in the Scriptures and that an other Councel where that Article was confirmed is to be receiued beside the foure first whiche only be allowed in England by Parlament Bicause he was lothe so manifest Vntruthe vttered against me should be espied he nipte awaie my wordes not suffering my whole tale to be tolde out in whiche I doo plainely signifie my denial to perteine only to the Article of the holy Ghostes proceeding and not to the Article of his Godhed For after these wordes of the Apologie Defence pag. â—0 we beleeue that the holy Ghoste who is the thirde person in the holy Trinitie is very God not made not create not begotten but proceeding from both the Father and the Sonne by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto menne and vnspeakeable c. In my Confutation I saie thus As we acknowledge this Article to be true CoÌ„futatioÌ„ fol. 41. b. and Catholique so we demaund of these Defenders how they can proue the same Haue they either expresse Scripture for it or any of the first foure general Councelles whiche be esteemed of most auctoritie Other Conucels to be allovved of necessitie besides the 4. First We are sure they haue not Therefore we doo them to vnderstand and if they heare vs not we aduertise the readers that feare God and loue his truthe that al truth necessarily to be beleeued is not expressed in the Scripture and that other CouÌ„celles be to be receiued besides the foure first whiche are allowed in England by Parlament * This much betvvene the tvvo starres M. Ievv nipt avvaie from the rest as that wherein this pointe touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost hath bene defined Concil Lugdunen Concil Florentin sub Eugenio 4. as also other definitions of the Churche when vpon a newe doubte rising an olde Truth is by later Publications declared Likewise those Councelles in whiche the doctrine hath ben defined by the Churche concerning the Two Willes and Operations of Christe whiche who so euer beleeueth not or at least refuseth to beleeue is not to be takeÌ„ for a Christian man If these Councelles be denied al these things shal come in doubt againe and if these be receiued then why should not al the reste that be vniuersal Councelles be also receiued which the Church hath allowed * Thus I saie there Iudge now good Reader whether I denie in that place that the holy Ghostes Godhed maie be proued by expresse wordes of Scripture wherewith he chargeth me in the Defence and whether this be a seeking of Quarelles against him for that he mainteineth the Proceeding and the Godhed of the holy Ghoste as he chargeth me in his Epistle to the Queenes Maiestie Likewise it is an immoderate lye where he saith I seeke Quarelles against them in that they mainteine the Faith of the holy and Glorious Trinitie Pitie it were I should be suffred to tread on Gods earth if I quarelled with any man for that he mainteineth that holy Quarel I professe my selfe bounde to mainteine that Faith with al my witte and learning and to be ready therein to spende my bloude to the last droppe Neither can I seeme to pike Quarelles against them in that they mainteine the General and Catholique professioÌ„ of the Common Creede for so should I proue my selfe an ennemie to the Faith As thus to doo it were a hainous crime so to burden me therewith in a publique Write in a printed Booke set forth for euery man to reade in a solemne Epistle Dedicatorie to a Prince and to suche a Prince the slaunder is hainous wicked and impudent Howbeit As I allow and approue the Confession of their beleefe touching the Trinitie confessing it to conteine true and Catholique doctrine so I seeme better to like of the olde accustomed manner of vtterance of the beleefe And in deede emong Christian menne when this high point of our Faith concerning the blessed Trinitie is by a publique Confession to be taught it is not yenough to vtter some parte of our beleefe whiche is true but also it behoueth vs to vtter the whole truthe and to vse suche fourme of wordes as hathe benne vsed and allowed by the Churche from the beginning What I meane and how reasonably herein I haue spoken by these my wordes vnto the indifferent Reader it shal appeare Confut. 39. b. But what fault finde ye in this confession of our Faith saith this defender Sir the first parte of your Confession wherein you vtter your Beleefe touching the Trinitie conteineth true and Catholique
authoritie to any heresie or errour I denie vtterly neither shal M. Iewel or any of his felowes what so euer be hable to proue the contrarie That any where I haue tolde them sadly and in good earnest that the bishop of Rome is a king if he meane the expresse name of a King I tel him here eftsones sadly and in good earnest and without Saulue la vostre that it is a starke lye Confut. fol. 280. a. The pope hath kingly power yet is he no king In the first place of my Confutation by him coted I say The pope hath a kingly power ouer his owne subiectes euen in temporal thinges and now I tel you here for example he hath it as Moyses had yet he taketh not vpon him to be a King nor chalengeth vnto him that title Neither doth he in his owne person bicause he acknowlegeth him selfe to be no King exercise the function and office of a King but committeth such charge vnto other Laye persons If ye enuie the Pope his kingly power and possessions whiche he holdeth by right beware you be not at length thought vnworthy and remoued from the landes of a Baron and the Earledom of S. Osmunde whiche you holde vnduely If that happen to come to passe where then shal we finde your good Lordship In the other place of the Confutation vpon occasion geuen by wordes of the Apologie I say that the Pope maie rule temporally Confut. fol. 305. b. and more there say I not touching this matter Item there Iewel That vnto him belongeth the right of bothe Svvordes as vvel Temporal as spiritual Confut. fol. 247. b. Harding What so euer I bring in my Confutation concerning both Swordes committed vnto the Successour of S. Peter it is S. Bernardes it is not myne Wheras the Apologie maker were it M. Iewel or who so euer it was by the multitude of the light scoffes it appeareth that he was the Penneman of it mary the stuffe I heare say was gathered by the whole Brotherhead whereas I say he steppeth forth very peartly and saith thus Confut. fo 247. a. I haue a special fansie to common a worde or two with the Popes good Holinesse and to say these thinges vnto his owne face Tel vs I praie you good holy Father c. Which of the Fathers euer said that bothe the Swordes were committed vnto you To this question the answere I make in the Popes behalfe is this Confut. fo 247. b. L. Si quis C. d. test Of the Popes teÌ„poral Svvorde De Considerat li. 4 Math. 26. Let S. Bernard writing to a Pope answer for the Pope He is a sufficient witnesse Where your selfe doo allege him much against the Pope you can not by the lawe iustly refuse him speaking for the Pope The spiritual sworde you denie not I trowe Of the temporal sworde belonging also to the Pope thus saith S. Bernarde to Eugenius He that denieth this sworde to be thine seemeth to me not to consider sufficiently the worde of our Lorde saying thus to Peter thy predecessour put vp thy sworde in the scaberd The very same then is also thine to be drawen forth perhappes at thy becke though not with thy hande Elles if the same belonged in no wise vnto thee where as the Apostles said Lucae 22. The Churche hath both svvordes by S. Bernard beholde there be two swordes here Our Lorde would not haue answered it is yenough but it is to muche So bothe be the Churches the spiritual sworde and the material But this to be exercised for the Churche and that of the Churche That by the hande of the Priest this of the souldier but verely at the becke of the Priest and commaundement of the Emperour Thus touching the Popes bothe swordes you are fully answered by S. Bernarde I trust you wil not be so vncourteous as to put him beside nor so parcial as to allow him when he seemeth to make some shewe for you and to refuse him when he is found plaine contrarie to your false assertions Vpon this place of S. Bernarde M. Iewel in the Defence sitting forsooth M. Iewels graue sentence pronounced against S. Bernarde Defence pag. 528. Ibidem as it were vpon the Benche like a Iudge hauing power to geue sentence either of life or of death saith ful grauely and Iudgelike and pronounceth this sentence S. Bernarde saith The Pope hath bothe swordes But S. Bernardes authoritie in this case is but simple But why I praie you Sir Iudge Marke the cause and profounde reason of this Iudge He liued saith he eleuen hundred yeeres after Christes Ascension in the time of King Henry the first the King of England in the middes of the Popes route and tyrannie And shal we for this cause shake of S. Bernarde Then why maie we not as wel sitte in Iudgement vpon M. Iewel and in like sorte but with more reason pronounce this sentence M. Iewel saith the bodie of Christe is not in the Euchariste the bodie and bloude of Christe are not to be adored in the Sacrament The Churche hath no externall Sacrifice no external Priesthod Praier made for the dead is vaine and superstitious There be not seuen Sacramentes but onely two and by the same grace is not conferred or geuen but onely signified The Pope is Antichriste and al that holde the olde Faith of the Churche who are Papistes perteine to the Kingdome of Antichriste c. But M. Iewels authoritie in these cases is but simple He liued almost sixteen hundred yeeres after Christe and is yet aliue in the time of Quene Elizabeth the Quene of England in the middes of the Caluinistes route and tyrannie The same sentence with a smal change of wordes maie with like reason be pronounced vppon Luther Zuinglius Peter Martyr Bucer Caluine Beza Baudie Bale Hooper Cranmare and the rest of that wicked route It were a thing worthy to be knowen why S. Bernarde should be condemned in respecte of his age and of the route whiche this man telleth vs the Popes then bare and these Apostates should be beleeued and honoured with al mennes assent yelded to their sayinges and teachinges their age being foure hundred yeeres later the tyranny crueltie vilanie and outrage whiche in sundry places by them of that side is vsed farre surmounting any what so euer seueritie of gouernement whiche the Popes vsed in that time their learning not equal with the learning of S. Bernarde their witte muche inferiour to his of eithers vertue and good life what shal I speake To compare theirs with his it were a kinde of blasphemie so holy a Father was he so dissolute Apostates are these Item there Iewel That all kinges and Emperours receiue their vvhole povver at his hande and ought to svveare obedience and Fealtie to the Pope For these be his vvordes euen in this bâ—rke so boldly dedicated vnto your Maiestie It is a great eye soare saith M. Harding to the ministers of Antichriste to see the
wordes be simply beleeued let my Confutation of the Apologie be vewed and there I shal be founde touching these odious pointes of these princes Variance with the Popes of their time to haue vttered these woordes farre otherwise then he here reporteth Confut. fol. 339. b. Concerning the case between these three Kinges of England and the Bishoppes of Rome for the tyme being I say litle If they did wel and the Bishoppes euil they haue their rewarde the other their punishment If otherwise or how so euer ech one at Gods iudgement shal haue his deserued measure But be it graunted al were true ye say though we know the more parte to be false Henrie the secōd S. Thomas Arch bishop of Canturbury King Iohn What though king Henrie the Second were euil entreated of Pope Alexander about the murthering of S. Thomas the Archebishop of Canturburie and King Iohn likewise of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius the thirde about the stirre he made against the Church for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop of Canturburie Henrie the .8 This is no iust cause to forsake the Churche King Henrie the eigth likewise of the Popes in our time about matters yet fresh bleeding Is this a good cause why ye who haue nothing to doo with Princes matters now ended and buried should forsake the Churche change your Faith change the whole order of Religion and condemne al before your time for a thousand yeres Bicause the Bishoppes of Rome haue done euil wil ye geue ouer the Faith of the Churche of Rome Bicause the Popes did wronge to Princes wil ye doo wrong to your selues Bicause the Popes were at Variance with these three Kinges wil ye be at Variance with God Bicause they excommunicated them wil ye excommunicate your selues I haue heard of a foole that being striken of one standing a looffe of would eftsones strike an other that stood next him But I neuer heard of any so foolish that seeing an other striken would therefore kill him selfe Verely your Apostasie and departing from the Catholique Churche is to weightie a matter to be defended with so light a reason Thou maist see good Reader that here I take not vpon me in Defence of those Popes to answere vnto these matters nor shortely as M. Iewel saith nor at length nor in light manner nor in sad manner which matters he calleth Tyrannical iniuries and iuste causes of griefe The more cleerely to shewe how litle good matter our new Vsurping Clergie haue to bring for the excuse and Defence of the Alteration they haue made in Religion and of their Schisme and departing from the Catholike Churche bicause in their Apologie they alleged these Practises of the Popes only I demaunde their tale for their better aduantage being graunted to be true whiche yet I saied expressely was knowen to be false for the more parte what reliefe their cause could haue thereby and how the euil doinges of the Bishoppes of Rome if it were graunted they did euil therein could be drawen to Defence of their owne worse doing To whiche demaunde M. Iewel by his silence in his pretensed Defence maketh al the worlde witnesse Defence Pag. 733. how vnhable he is to answere Howbeit in that place he vseth his common sleight by cutting awaie the chiefe parte of my tale wherein lyeth the weighte and so dischargeth him selfe of the paines of answering Any booke may so sone be answered Touching these Popes and these Kinges when M. Iewel or any of his felow Ministers shal truely and with sufficient reason proue vnto vs that Henrie the Second did wel when he gaue occasion that the blessed Martyr S. Thomas Archebishop of Canturburie was murdered that al King Iohns attemptes against the Churche for cause of Steuen Lankton Archebishop and primate of the same prouince were iuste and right and that King Henrie the eight did wel and according either to the holy Scriptures or doctrine of the auncient and learned Fathers when he tooke vpon him to be Supreme Head in earth of the Churche of England immediatly vnder Christe whiche no temporal prince euer tooke vpon him before and likewise when for maintenance of the same title he hanged headded and quartered so many holy and learned men of al degrees now blessed Sainctes and crowned Martyrs in heauen when I say either he or they or any of them shal proue this much vnto vs in such sorte as I said before then wil we say with them ô worthy Kinges ô naughty Popes yea then wil we saie too ô the crowe is white Neuerthelesse I doo not here iustifie al the deedes of the Popes But what so euer they did that is no sufficient cause why these menne should forsake their Faith and departe from the felowship of the Churche Item there Iewel But concerning the Maiestie and right of Kinges and Emperours M. Harding telleth vs they haue their first authoritie by the positiue Lavve of Nations and can haue no more povver then the people hath of vvhom they take their temporal iurisdiction Confutat Fol. 318. b. Harding If I haue herein spoken euil geue witnesse against me of euil Ye would faine finde a faulte I perceiue if ye wiste wherein You seeme not wel to vnderstand what you saie nor whereof you affirme But you allege the Scriptures Per me Reges regnant Prouer. 8. By me Kinges doo reigne And there is no power but from God very learnedly forsooth As though the auctoritie Rom. 13. that Princes haue by the positiue lawe of Nations and the power whiche they haue of the people were not of God as who vseth that meane to conueie that power vnto them Item there Iewel M. Harding euen in the selfe same booke vnder certaine general threates chargeth your Maiestie vvith disordered presumption by the example of Ozias the vvicked King vpon vvhom as he vntruly saith God sent his vengeance for the like Confut. fol. 298. a. Harding You would faine the Queenes Maiestie should conceiue hatred against me I perceiue M. Iewel and thereto you applie al your skil and cunning But Sir who deserueth more thankes at God and the Princes for the time being he that telleth them the Truthe and in time geueth warning to beware of Goddes Vengeance before it be to late or he that for his owne wordly interest holdeth his peace and leadeth them into a wrong way from the whiche if they returne not backe they are sure at length to feele either the temporal smarte of Goddes Vengeance in this life or the euerlasting smarte in the life to come Ye flatter ye flatter your Princes M. Iewel ye deceiue them ye blinde them ye worke al meanes possible that the Truthe be not brought to their vnderstanding least were it knowen and of them perceiued ye should be turned out of your welthy roumes and driuen againe to Geneua I had almost said Gehenna from whence ye came Certainely ye shutte vp the kingdome of Heauen from Princes and others so
of the ministration of them I vtterly condemne That I saie Their Faith is no Faith it is the sixthe lye I confesse it to be a Faith touching the pointes wherein they agree with the catholique Churche In the other pointes I saie it is no Faith but errour and heresie Albeit Arius the heretique had a Faith Eunomius had a Faith Nestorius Euctyhes Sabellius Photinus Apollinaris briefly al Heretiques had their Faithes but al were false Faithes as much to say no Faithes but as the Latines cal it Perfidia M. Iewel for some shewe of vpright dealing hath filled his margent in this place with cotations as thicke as they maie stand one by an other directing the reader to my bookes If it shal please the reader diligently to peruse the places bothe in my Confutation and in my Reioinder he shal trie him to be as he is euery where a false and a shamelesse lyer As for the Quenes Lawes The Quenes Lavves and Parlamentes and Parlamentes for change of Religion and Faith what haue I to doo with them whether they be lawes and Parlamentes or no Be they as they be It is not my profession to discusse that matter If there be any that doubte thereof let the learned men of lawe be demaunded their opinion If they wil not or if they be loth to speake what they thinke let the questiō be differred vntil the time come that M. Iewel and I shal be placed where we shal no more contende about the authoritie of mannes lawes 2. Cor. 5. but shal ech of vs receiue according to that we haue done in our bodies that is to saie accordingly as we haue in our doctrine and life either kept or broken Goddes lawes The age to come perhappes shal be hable to saie more therein then this present time It is an olde said sawe Filia temporis Veritas Truth is the daughter of time Let vs not trouble our selues about this odious question M. Iewel I praie you but referre it ouer to the time to come Yet bicause in your pretensed Defence ye beare menne in hande that I seeme to saie Defence pag. 595. that the Parlament holden in the firste yere of the Quenes Maiesties reigne was no Parlament for that the Bishops refused to agree vnto the statute made for change of Religion I wil here truely laie forth my wordes in whiche you auouche I seeme so to saie that it maie appeare to al menne what a quareller you are These be my wordes Confut. fol. 276 a. Where haue ye treated of your matters That matter hath benne treated saie ye in open Parlament with long consultation and before a notable Synode and Conuocation First in what Parlament Meane ye the first of our Soueraine Lady Quene Elizabeth or any of those of king Edward the sixth his daies c. If ye meane as by reason you must the Parlamentes of these later daies the first of al did make most for you and yet how open was it for you Had ye any place at al in it Were ye admitted within the doores Or had ye any thing to doo in that assemblie Consider then with what Consultation your purposes were concluded Did they tarie manie monethes about it Had they Bishoppes Had they Diuines and the most learned to reason too and fro with al libertie Was the authoritie of the Vniuersal Churche of Christe and the doctrine of the Auncient Fathers considered Ye saie in Latine Plenis Comitijs that is in the ful and whole assemblie as though none at al had there resisted but euery man had yelded to your matters What saie ye then of the Spiritual Lordes a great parte of the Parlament and without al doubte the parte whiche must be chiefly and onely regarded when the Question is of Religion How many of them gaue their voice to your Gospel Yea whiche of them al did not resiste it c. As of the Spiritual Lordes ye had none at al so of the Temporal ye had not al and so had ye also in the lower house very many and wel learned that spake against you * These vvordes folowing M. Ievvel nipte avvaie in the Defence And mo would had conscience benne as free as auctoritie was dredful And yet cal ye this a ful Parlament and a Parlament whiche had al his partes wholy fauouring you * Vpon these wordes M. Iewel maketh muche a doo in the Defence as if I had denied that Parlament to be a Parlament for lacke of the Bishoppes consent But whether I said so or no let these mine owne wordes before rehersed be the trial Touching the matter it selfe he saith how truely I doubt that in the Parlamentes of England for any Statute to be lawfully enacted the consent of Archebishoppes and Bishoppes hath not ben thought necessarie Defence pag. 595. and that matters haue passed only by the more parte of voices yea although these be his very wordes al Archebishoppes Defence Ibidem and Bishops were neuer so earnestly bent against it And yet he saith further whereat I marueil that Statutes so passing onely by the voices of the Lordes Temporal though the Lordes Spiritual dissente neuer so muche haue neuerthelesse alwaies ben confirmed enacted and published vnder the names of the Lordes Spiritual and Temporal If it be so then I perceiue it faieth with the lordes Spiritual as it faieth with me For as M. Iewel hath published and said many thinges vnder my name that I neuer said nor meant to thintent to discredite me if any happily be so simple that wil beleeue him So by this tale lawes be published vnder the name of Archebishoppes and Bishoppes who are the Lordes Spiritual vnto whiche they neuer gaue their assent but contrary wise earnestly dissented What this is to be called in the Statutes of the Realme I knowe not but in the writinges of priuate menne suche as Maister Iewels and myne are this practise of fathering wordes and sayinges vpon a man whiche he neuer said nor wrote is accompted vnlawful and false and commonly is named forgerie falsifying and belying the chiefe flowers wherewith M. Iewel alwaies decketh his garland He referreth me for further proufe of this matter to the Recordes of a Parlament holden by king Edward the first at S. Edmundes Burie the Archebishoppes and Bishopes being as he saith quite shutte forthe Anno Domini 1296 where he telleth me it is written thus Habito Rex cum suis Baronibus Parlamento Clero excluso statutum est c. The king keeping the Parlament with his Barons the Clergie that is to saie the Archebishoppes and Bishoppes being shutte forth it was enacted c. Perhappes the inferiour Clergie was excluded who as I haue heard Lawiers saie in olde time came to the Parlamentes and had their place in the lower house But that the Archebishoppes and Bishoppes were excluded thereof I doubte Item saith he in the time of king Henrie the thirde a statute touching the legitimation of
custome of falsifying al that he taketh in hande euen here also he playeth that parte as kindely as any where elles For although some suche wordes or the like be in deede founde in my writinges against him yet they beare not suche an owgly and lothsom visard as he putteth on them As for example whereas sometimes for good cause I can not finde in my harte to cal these mennes rash Innouation of the auncient religion their wicked abrogation of certaine Sacramentes their vile prophanation of the reste their horrible contempte of the body and bloude of Christe in the most blessed Sacrament of the Aulter whereas I say I can not finde in my harte to cal these thinges Godly procedinges restoring of the Gospel the sincere Worde the right Ministration of the Lordes Supper as they would al men to cal them but contrarywise Deuilish spite wickednes and villanie to cause the mater to seme more odious he reporteth my wordes thus your Deuilish spite your Deuilish wickednes your Deuilish villanie c as thoughe I had spoken them to him and to his felowes specially whereas for the more part suche wordes are spoken not in the second but in the third person of the Heretikes of our time indefinitely and in general Whiche neuerthelesse if I had spoken vnto him and them directly it had ben no greeuous sinne their desert considered For therein had I folowed the counsel whiche S. Antonie that blessed man gaue vnto his Scholers a litle before he departed this life To whom he said thus as S. Athanasius who wrote his life reporteth Athanas in vita Antonij Haereticorum venena vitate meumque erga eos odium sectamini Scitis quòd nullus mihi pacificus sermo cum eis fuerit Auoide the poisons of Heretiques and folow the hatred that I haue borne them Ye know that I had neuer any peaseable talke with them How so euer it be it had benne M. Iewels parte to haue vsed more truth in his writing But why did he not set forth my whole sayinges where suche wordes be placed What reason is it a man to burthen his Aduersarie with certaine wordes only and with silence to dissemble his entiere sentences By what laudable example hath he done thus Whiche of the olde Fathers euer did so If no man euer did it before these daies then so farre as the Catholique Church hath not erred in Faith and hath no neede now to receiue a new Gospel of Luther Zuinglius or Caluine by this practise he sheweth him selfe aswel a folower of the inuentours of new malice as a mainteiner of new Heresies Brentius the first author of this new deuise of laying the Aduersaries sharpe wordes together in one heape practized by M. Iewel This deuise of laying together in a heape al the sharpe wordes with whiche one feeleth him selfe prickte culled out of the aduersaries wriâ—â—nges is very strange and new and before this age whiche bringeth forth many rare nouelties was neuer vsed of any learned man In our time it is begonne and for ought I know first practized by Brentius who in the beginning of his booke against Bullinger entituled Recognitio propheticae Apostolicae doctrinae c written in defence of his newe doctrine of Vbiquitie laieth together in a heape al the wordes that Bullinger had vttered in his booke against him whiche might seeme sharpe rough and vngentle so softely must these menne now be handled after that they haue spent al their intemperate railing vpon the Pope the Papistes the most blessed Sacrament of the Aulter the daily Sacrifice the other Sacramentes and the godly Ceremonies of holy Churche Wherefore M. Iewel is not like to haue the glorie of this new deuise he must be content to yeelde it vnto Iohn Brentius whose ape and folower he is in this as in many other pointes worthy of smal praise Now if Bullinger the grande Captaine of the Sacramentaries of which secte M. Iewel is a professed mainteiner thought it not vnseemely for the grauitie of his Ministership to be so plaine with Brentius as to put him in minde sometimes of his deserued titles by saying he was Rixator Spiritus inflatus CaluÌ„niator c. a Branler In RespoÌ„sione BreÌ„tij ad primam partem Bullingeri pag. 8. 9. a pufte Sprite a spiteful speaker a skoffer a mocker a Hickescorner a peruerter a lyer vncleane impudeÌ„t a babler a brabler a craker a thrower of Christ out of his heauenly seate madde light childish a iangler a reuiler a sclaunderous person an Eutychian a Sophiste a railer woorse then Swenckefeldius him selfe Againe if he thought it not discommendable in him selfe being the chiefe Superintendent of Zurich to cal BreÌ„tius booke writen in defence of that new heresie Brentianas nebulas figmenta c. The mistes and deuises of Brentius Head vaine and peeuish â—oies knauish folies a doctrine dissoluing the hope of the faithfulles assured saluation in heauen a madnesse a phantasie Sophistrie crafty fetches most false deuises a feeble write Sophismes guiles a booke of Riddles a fabulous monstre a Sophistical Egypte stincking trifles prodigious Vbiquitie frantique wordes c If Bullinger I saie one of your noblest Worthies thought it not vnseemely for his degree and state to vse suche bitter eloquence and order of speach in reprouing Brentius and was neuer and it is like should neuer haue benne reproued for it among them of your owne Sacramentarie Secte M. Iewel why are you so heauy a Maister to me whom you esteeme muche lesse then Henrie Bullinger the Successour of your great Patriarke Zuinglius in the Chaier of your doctrine at Zurich as to blame that in me whiche you could not finde in your harte to disallow in Bullinger Wel how so euer in please you fauorably to iudge of your owne great Maisters and laye lode of reproches vpon me yet this muche you maie cal to your consideration Wordes considered alone without composition sounde good or euil according to their signification and al manner of wordes may be vsed without blame Of the sentences and whole sayinges onely where the circumstance may be considered and weighed faire or fowle speache is conceiued Now if thou wilt take the paines Reader to turne to the places of my bookes whence M. Iewel hath piked out those wordes for vse of whiche he reproueth me as a man of vncourteous vtterance thou shalt right wel perceiue in case heresie haue not vtterly bewitched thyne vnderstanding and bereued thee of al iudgement the verdure of my speache to be suche as may seme conuenient for a vessel of the holy Ghoste to taste of It may please M. Iewel to consider that by degree of Schoole and by lawful calling otherwise I stand in the place of teachers And therefore though at this present the Pulpite be denyed me yet I find not my selfe wholly so discharged of the office of teaching Now hauing no other conuenient meane to teache but by writing what ought I at this tyme to write
Esaie Esai 5â— This is my couenaunt with them my spirite whiche is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mowth shal not departe from thy mowth and from the mowth of thy seede and from the mowth of thy seedes seede from this time for euer Lo here ye heare bothe the wordes of God and the Spirite of truthe by whom the wordes may be rightly vnderstanded promised to remaine with the Church for euer Thus we are wel assured that the Churche hath neuer failed nor wanted Goddes worde goddes Spirite and Goddes truthe But ye my Maisters of the new learning do say that the Churche failed and was destitute of Goddes worde and of his spirite of Truthe for the space of nyne hundred yeres and more vntil Martin Luther came and restored the lost Gospel By vertue of whiche Gospel neuer preached before ye claime the right of the Church and so would dispossesse vs wherein of necessitie ye must graunt one of these two either that Christe the Sonne of God promised more then he perfourmed whiche were heinous blasphemie or that your Churche hath continued til this day and shal continue to the worldes ende If to eschew the reproche of so wicked a blasphemie ye graunt the continuance of your Churche ye must tel vs where it was before Luther began to preache that ye cal the Gospel Name the place where was it Or was it somewhere without a place Dic quibus in terris eris mihi magnus Apollo If it were at al where were your Bishops What were their names or were they men without names Bring forth your Originals your Registers your Rolles of Bishops that folowed one after an other by lawful succession For this were a sure way for proufe of your right Tertull. In prascript Optatus August muche commended and vsed of the best learned Fathers Your Actes and Monumentes where be they Haue ye none of greater antiquitie then those late of Foxes making If ye had a continual succession how came Luther and Zuinglius first to the Gospel how was al the light quite out before how were al the fonteines of the water of life vtterly dryed vp before his time for so ye write in your Apologie This this can not stand together M. Iewel by no meanes as al the world may see So then it is we kepe our ancient Possession ye heaue and shooue to remoue vs from it We be of the howseholde ye are strangers We are the heires of the Apostles ye are forrainers We are the lawful Children of the Churche ye are Bastardes to be shorte and plaine whereas we are Catholiques what foloweth but that ye be Heretiques The case standing thus what great offence haue I committed if where I defende the common cause of the Churche being moued with dew zeale and iuste griefe of mynde to see your vngodly dealinges I forgete sometimes the flattering Titles wherewith ye woulde your proceedinges to be magnified and vse wordes more agreable to your desertes O ye saie I vse vncourteous and vnciuile speache Why sir if ye skreake like Frogges must we saie ye sing like Nightingalles If ye crowe like proude Cockes must we saie ye mourne like simple Dooues If ye byte vs like Mastiâ—â—s must we say ye licke vs like gentle Spaniâ—h If ye consume vs and deuoure vs like rauening Wolues must we say ye profite vs like good Sheepe Must we tel the worlde that your Serpentes be Fisshes your Snakes be Lamproies your Scorpions be Creauises briefly that your deadly Poison is holesom Triacle What were this but to please men and to deceiue Goddes people But let vs go from Metaphores and come to the plaine mater If your Doctrine be false as by most sufficient waies we haue proued it to be shal we be vnciuile excepte we sooth it If your deedes be vngodly as the worlde seeth and rueth shal we be vncourteous excepte we iustifie them If ye say Nay for Yea and Yea for Nay in Goddes causes shal we be blamed as men vnciuil and vncourteous except we vpholde your Yea and your Nay We can be content to lacke the praise of suche sinneful Ciuilitie of suche wicked Courtesie If any priuely pike money out of our purses steale our goodes robbe by the high waye kil men and attempte traison to their Princes person standeth it with good manner to cal them Pikepurses Theeues Robbers Murderers Traitours and whereas you and your felowes teache and stubbornly mainteine a false doctrine concerning the real presence that here I speake of no other pointes by the Churche and by Luther him selfe the first founder of your owne Gospel condemned for Heresie must it needes be an vncourteous parte to cal you Heretiques To touche some of your rawest Gaulles for making proffer to whiche ye wince and kicke so muche euery where â—nd specially where ye laye forth al my sharpe wordes with suche diligence gathered together out of my bookes into one heape before your Preface to the Reader For so muche as it is geuen forth by Luthers owne confession that by the conference and disputation which the Deuil had with him he was persuaded to defie the Masse and become enemie to the blessed Sacrifice of the Churche and your selfe M. Iewel haue geuen your verdite in fauour of Luther and Satan Sathans doctrine Sathan their Schoole Maister In the Replie art 1. Diuision 2. allowing Satans Doctrine in that point and Luthers conformitie imbracing the same also for your owne parte as you haue openly witnessed in your Replie what offence was it to say for whiche you shewe your selfe greeued that ye ioined with Satan and concerning the spite ye beare at the Masse to cal Satan your Schoolemaister That I called this new founded Churche of the Protestantes a Babylonical tower not without iuste cause It angreth you that I cal this new Church of yours for so a Gods name we must name it Your Babylonical Tower And this is for a heinous worde scored vp among the rest in your said Rolle you tel the Quene of it also in your Epistle to her Maiestie but how iustly ye be offended therewith let it be considered by that I shal here briefly declare Dissensions among the Protestantes Who knoweth not that is any thing acquainted with the affaires of oure age into how many Sectes they haue diuided them selues that forsooke the Catholique Churche sithence Luther beganne to leade vs a newe daunce in Religion what controuersies debates and strifes about the weightiest pointes of our Faith haue benne stirred vp and moste earnestly mainteined among them Who hath not heard of the brawling and skolding betwene Luther and Zuinglius and the vpholders of either side about the Doctrine of the Euchariste Neither hath the matter benne handled with any better quiet betwene the Osiandrines and the Stancarians touching the Iustification of man the one Secte attributing it vnto Christes Diuine nature the other vnto his humaine nature onely Againe what sturre hath benne made about
iudgement and minde touching obedience to princes and that in a booke dedicated and offred to be read euen of the Quenes Maiestie her selfe Confut. 15. a. Among other thinges thus I saie in my Confutation of the Apologie It standeth not with Goddes promises made to the Church touching his being with the Church al daies to the worldes ende and the holy Ghostes remaining with it Math. 28. Iohan. 14. the spirite of Truthe for euer that he should suffer his Churche to continewe in Darkenes and lacke of Truthe these thousand yeres past and now at the later daies to reuele the truthe of his Gospel by Apostates Vowebreakers Churcherobbers and suche others most vnlike to the Apostles Hereunto thus answereth M. Iewel Iewel pag. 32. You saie it standeth not vvith Gods promise to forsake his Churche a thousand yeres It is muche for you M. Harding openly to breake Gods cōmaundementes to defile his holy Sanctuarie to turne light into Darckenesse and Darckenesse into light and yet neuerthelesse to binde him too his promise Harding Goddes promise being infallible the Churche neuer erreth Se◠good Reader The. 7. Chapt. how absurdely and wretchedly M. Iewel answereth to this most euident and inuincible argument taken out of holy scripture I reason thus God promiseth he wil neuer Math. 28. no not one daie forsake his Churche Ergo if he forsooke it a thousand yeres as these menne tel vs he broke his promise M. Iewel answereth by a lewde kinde of Sophistrie called Petitio principij Petitio Principij that is the bringing forthe for proufe the thing it selfe whiche he ought to proue and whiche chiefely lieth in question and whiche wil neuer be graunted bicause it can neuer be proued That thing I saie he bringeth forth for a proufe and procedeth thereupon as vpon a matter vndoubted and graunted You M. Harding saith he haue broken Gods commaundementes you haue defiled his holy Sanctuarie c. Ergo you ought not to binde God to his promise This Antecedent or former proposition is the thing whiche he shoulde specially haue proued and then in Gods name he might thereof haue cōcluded what he coulde Now to bring it for proufe it selfe in respecte of true doctrine being most in question and vtterly denied by vs it is a lewde kinde of reasoning Againe beholde good Reader how he ouerturneth the Argument taken out of Gods worde I reason thus God hath promised his Churche should neuer erre Ergo it hath not erred these thousand yeres past he answereth The Church by our defaulte hath erred For we saith he haue turned light into Darckenesse c. Ergo God was not bounde to his promise What meane you M. Iewel As though God promising that his Churche should not erre prouided not also suche meanes whereby to preserue it from errour As though Gods promise depended of vs and of our wel doing As though any power of man or the worlde were hable to frustrate Gods promise As though if any suche power should haue come as you imagine the Popes power to haue darckened Christes Gospel Christe could not or would not haue foresene it or foreseing it would yet notwithstanding promise that Al daies he would be with his Churche Math. 28. Esaie 59. Iohn 14. and againe that the spirite of Truthe should assiste it for euer Thinke you M. Iewel that Christe our Sauiour forsawe not the Ruine or Darckenesse of his Churche of whiche so blasphemously you affirme Or thinke you that foreseing such an vniuersal Darckenesse to come and that for the space of so many hundred yeres together he would neuerthelesse haue said The Churches errour of a thousand yeres and the foreknovvledge of Christ can not stand together onlesse vve make Christe false of his promise as he said and haue so assuredly promised vnto his Apostles and in them vnto their Successours the perpetual assistance of the holy Ghoste the spirite of truthe with his Churche How could suche foreknowledge of Christe and suche a promise stand together Choose M. Iewel which you wil. The one of these you must of necessitie graunte that either Christe forsawe not the great Darckenesse to come whiche you saie you doo see and so you see more then Christe God and man euer sawe or foresawe or that Christe promised one thing and intended to performe an other thing He promised Al daies and for euer but intended to performe only fiue hundred yeres at the beginning and after the leape of a thousand yeres to graunte certaine yeres moe God knoweth how many O haynous blasphemie whereby Christe the Sonne of God the wisdome of his Father is proued either to haue ben ignorant of that whiche Protestantes knowe or elles to haue ben false of his promise But what neede many wordes M. Iewel him selfe immediatly after his former wordes to his owne condemnation saith Al menne be liers but God only is true Psal 50. 2. Tim. 2. and preuaileth when he is iudged God knoweth his owne Christe wil be euermore with his Churche That the light of truth hath not ben put out in the Churche yea although the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him Al this is true and the same doth euidently condemne you and your Religion Al menne be liers Protestantes for example whiche saie that these thousand yeres the Church hath ben corrupted and light hath ben turned into Darknesse God only is true Christes worde is true the Light of faith hath not benne turned into Darckenesse these thousand yeres nor any one yere at al onlesse Darckenesse and the Spirite of truth maie dwel together God knoweth his owne The Churche is his therefore he knoweth his Churche And bicause it is built vpon a hil it is euer sene and is neuer vnknowen Math. 5. Math. vlt. Christe wil be euermore with his Churche But with your Congregation or Synagog how shal I cal it he hath not ben these many hundred yeres for you saie in your Apologie The Pope hath blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres and in this your Defence you saie againe that when Doctour Luther beganne to Publish the Gospel of Christe there was a general quietnesse suche as is in the night when folke be a sleepe c. Ergo your companie is not the Churche Let vs see vvhat you can ansvver to this argumēt M. Ievv Marke the Argument I require you and auoide it if you be hable To repete it once againe thus we saie Christe promiseth euermore to be with his Churche but Christe hath not ben euer more with you and your fellowes Ergo you and your fellowes are not the Churche The maior is true not only bicause it is Christes promise but also by your owne Confession The minor you confesse also in your Apologie it resteth ye discharge your selfe of the Conclusion Touching the minor the Pope you saie blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres Then in those so many hundred yeres no man saw the light where then were they
witnesse Touching faith and doctrine of beleefe the first fiue hundred yeres no more vvorth then the thousand yeres that folovved But in respect of faith and the necessarie doctrine of our saluation it is a manifest blasphemie to saie that the first fiue hundred yeres are more worthe then the thousand that folowed For this assertion importeth that Christe assisted his Churche the first fiue hundred yeres absolutely and perfitely so that then the Pastours and Doctours of the Churches erred not in faith and doctrine but in the later thousand yeres the Churche was not so assisted of Christe and of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truth but rather in suche wise neglected and forsaken as Idolatrie superstition yea palpable darkenes ouercame and preuailed And thus you M. Iewel who saie before Christ wil be with his Church euermore saie nowe otherwise that these thousand yeres are litle worth which is as much to saie as that Christes special prouidence hath failed his Churche after the first fiue hundred yeres And so shal his promise of his euerlasting assistance so oftentimes auouched in the holy Scriptures be founde to faile But Al menne be liers and God is true The promise of Christe the sonne of God is infallible The Churche therefore in no age or time wanted the assistance of Christe nor of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truthe The Churche of Rome of whiche you speake so villanously neither hath preuailed The Churche of Rome the onely and true Church of Christe neither could possibly preuaile against Christe It hath preuailed against al Heresies and therefore no other Churche in the worlde appearing al these thousand yeres then the Churche of Rome by which worde I coÌ„prehende al nations agreing with the faith of that Churche that only was the true Churche of Christe and is to this daie and according vnto Christes promise shal endure to the ende of the worlde For as we shal not haue any other Christ so neither shal we haue any other Faith nor any other Church Iewel pag. 36. That the Princes and Free Cities of Germanie euer persecuted vs it is vtterly vntrue and like the rest of your tales None of them al no not one vvould euer suffer the same Doctrine of ours to be condemned Harding That the Sacramentaries haue ben persecuted by the Princes of Germanie and by their Doctours and by the free Cities The. 9. Chapt. This is so grosse and so palpable a lye that no man bâ—â— you M. Iewel would euer I thinke haue had the harte to affirme it so constantly and that in printe First Carolostadius Carolostadius the first professour in Saxonie of your Sacramentarie heresie was bannished out of al Saxonie by the procurement of Luther in the yere 1525. as witnesseth your owne frende Iohn Sleidan Sleidan Lib. 5. Histor Againe the yonger Princes of Saxonie and the Counteis of Mansfeld in the yere 1559. published eche of them a Write wherein they recken vp and condemne the one nine Lib. contra 9. Sectas Lib. coÌ„tra 11. Sectas Lauatherus in histor coÌ„tra Sacrament the other eleuen Sectes of the whiche your Secte of the Sacramentaries by name is one This is yet extant to be seene in print and can not be denied Lauatherus a Sacramentarie him selfe reporteth it Thirdly in the yere 1561. though in the meeting at Numburg by the intreatie of certaine Princes the Zuinglians were not condemned generally in al Germanie as the Princes of the Confession of Ausburg would openly and solemnely haue done yet in the same yere afterward in a Diet holden at Luneburg Lauatherus ibideÌ„ Surius FraÌ„ciscus Philippus in histor Albert of Hardenburg a great Zuinglian was openly condemned for an heretike Last of al in the same yere 1561. the Frenche Caluinistes were coÌ„maunded and forced by the Magistrates of FraÌ„kford either to practise no more their manner and order of religion there or to departe the Citie Yet you saie you were neuer persecuted either of the PriÌ„ces or of the free Cities in Germanie What shal I here speake of your brethren at Andwerpe whom the Martinistes for so they cal the Lutherans ioining with the Catholiques and putting them selues in armes draue awaie and compelled to flee the Citie If ye beleeue not me beleeue their flight beleeue your felow minister Hermannus the Predicant that of late was in Norwiche and now as I heare saie is driuen from thence I know not whither what fauour he and his felowes founde at the handes of the Martinistes Iewel Pag. 37. In deede certaine tovvnes of Germanie subiecte to Bishoppes in outvvarde vsages of their Churches remaine stil as they vvere before Yet neuerthelesse vvhere the Churches are popish the people of al sortes are Protestantes Harding This is a sensible lie and a mere sclaunder Great partes of Germanie yet remaining vvhole and Catholique The people of al sortes in Germanie where the Churches remaine Catholique do in suche numbers resorte vnto the seruice haunt the Sermons and frequent the Sacramentes as al that haue benne at Wormes at Spires at Augusta at Ingolstadt at Vratislauia and suche other Cities can beare witnesse that a man to saie as you saie must nedes proue him selfe gilty either of purposed lying as speaking against a knowen truthe or of a malicious iudgement as to iudge of mennes hartes contrary to their whole outwarde life and behauiour For by this you condemne of detestable Hypocrisie and dissimulation not only the people of al sortes in the forenamed Cities and diuers suche others where Catholiques liue mingled with Protestantes but also you condemne the whole Countries of Austria of Bauaria the great Dioces of Saltzburg of Passaw Mentz Treueres Coulen and other Territories where the whole face and shewe of Religion is onely Cathholike It is a smal token of grace yea of ciuill honestie for the setting forth of your conceiued opinioâ— so farre and so notoriously to sclaunder whole Natioâ— and Countries Iewel Pag. 37. Linea vlt. As for the VVest Spanish Indies the people there liued not only vvithout al manner knovvledge of God but also vvilde and naked vvithout any Ciuile gouernment Being in this miserable state and naturally by the very sense and iudgement of Common reason abhorring and lothing their ovvne blindnesse vvhat merueil is it if they vvere easy to be lead into any religion Harding M. Iewel attributeth the glorious conuersion of the Indians not to the power of the Gospel but to the leading of natural reason The 10. Chapt. What M. Iewel doo you enuie at the glorie of God Doth it greue you to see great Countries conuerted to the faith of Christe by them that be not of your Faith And wil ye needes to deface the power of the Gospel attribute the miraculous conuersion of that rude people vnto natural reason Had your heathnish harte herein rather acknowledge a leading of nature then the power of our Sauiour What could Porphyrie Iulian or Celsus
of Christe VVe are Embassadours in the steede of Christe 2. Cor. 5. euen as though God did exhorte you through vs Hereof ye conclude Ergo the Pope vnder Châ—â—stâ— and in steede of Christe is the head of the Churche If ye conclude not thus ye vvander idlely and speake in vaine and conclude nothing Harding To what sense these wordes of S. Paule were alleged and that S. Bernarde maketh for vs. The 8. Chapt. That place of S. Paule was not alleged to proue that the Pope is Head but to proue that menne whiche doo beare the person of Christe in ruling the Churche maie in one signification be called Headdes bicause they are gouernours vnder Christe and so muche it proueth sufficiently Leaue Cauillations M. Iewel and keepe you to the matter for verie shame If you marke no better what your Aduersarie taketh in hande to proue against you then you haue done in this you wil be founde as weake in Logique for al your glorious shewes and crakes as you are in Diuinitie You can see nothing you saie wherein the Pope resembleth S. Paule And what then Admitte we this to be true though in deede it be false that he preacheth not he exhorteth not c wil you remoue rulers from their authoritie if they satisfie not your minde in al pointes of duetie Kinges shal not then long keepe their roomes as men maie see what holesome broiles your good brethren haue now stirred vp in sundry realmes Your Gospel and Pistles I might saie your Pistolets are to ful of gunne powder M. Iewel Christes Ghospel breatheth not forth suche outragious and blouddy blastes Looke wel vpon al the places and phrases that you haue hunted after touching the Terme Head and if they be wel examined they shal be founde to make rather with vs then ought at al against vs. Iewel Pag. 96. S. Bernarde vvithout glose saith plinely Bernard in Concil Remensi Non sunt omnes amici Sponsi qui hodie sunt Sponsi Ecclesiae They be not al the Bridegromes frendes that are this daie the Spouses of the Churche Harding Denieth S. Bernarde in that place trowe ye that Bishoppes are the Spouses of the Churche Or doth he not rather graunt it in that he saith Qui sunt hodie Sponsi Ecclesiae They that are nowe a daies the Spouses of the Churche Haue not you the reason to marke what he graunteth and what he denieth He denieth that al they were the Bridegromes frendes that were at that time Spouses of the Churche Ergo there were some that were bothe the Bridegromes frendes and also Spouses of the Churche What il lucke haue you alwaies to allege the Fathers to your owne ouerthrowe As strange as you make that any man should be called the Light the Life the Sauiour and the God yet certaine of these haue ben attributed in Scripture as lothe as you be to heare of it to menne that were Headdes vnder Christe Matth. 5. The Apostles pardy are called the light of the worlde Moyses is called by God the God of Pharao Exod. 7. Psal 135.81 Gen. 41. Rulers are called Goddes Confitemini Deo Deorum Ego dixi Dij estis Ioseph is called a Sauiour of the worlde The Apologie part 2. cap. 3. Diui. 1. pag. 96. Furthermore vve beleeue that there be diuers degrees of Ministers in the Churche vvhereof some be Deacons some Priestes some Bishoppes to vvhom is committed the office to instructe the people and the wâ—â—le charge and setting forth of religion Confutation Here it had ben your parte to haue declared your saithe touching the holy Sacrament of Order aggreable to the faithe of the Catholique Churche that there be seuen Orders in the Churche foure lesser and three greater for so by good reason they are called c. Iewel Pag. 96. Gentle Reader if I should leaue these and other like M. Hardinges vvordâ—s vnansvvred thou mightest happely thinke he had said somevvhat c. Harding More then euer you shal be hable truely and learnedly to answere As for sundrie of lesser Orders I referred you to places in the olde Fathers where they are specially named Iewel Pag. 96. Anacletus epist 3. His ovvne Anacletus saithe Amplius quà m isti duo Ordines Sacerdotum Episcopi praesbyteri nec nobis à Deo collati sunt nec Apostoli docuerunt More then these two Orders of Priestes Bishoppes and Elders neither hath God appointed vs not haue the Apostles taught vs. Harding why is Anacletus I praie you rather myne then yours Why allege ye suche Doctours whose auhoritie ye esteeme not If Anacletus that was a holy Father and Martyr with in the first hundred yeres after Christe be not to be credited why doo you allege him Wil your courrage serue you as wel to defie the Fathers that liued so nighâ— to Christe as it doth to contemne al them that wrote in the later nine hundred yeres If he be worthy of any credite why is he called myne owne more then your owne What insolencie is this to make accompte of no Father of what antiquitie so euer he be If it had pleased you to haue taken time sufficient to consider the matter better you might haue founde out that the Apostles taught vs the order of Deacons as it is manifest in the Actes of the Apostles Acto 6. 1. Tim. 4. 2. Tim. 1. and in S. Paules Epistles to Timothee whereby ye might haue easily coÌ„ceiued that the Auncient Father Anacletus in his third Epistle comprehended not onely vnder the terme Sacerdos Priestes but also Deacons and Subdeacons as Bartholomaeus de Caranza now Bishop of Toledo in Spaine plainly testifieth by his notes vpon the same Epistle Perhappes you take Anacletus to be myne rather then yours bicause in the same thirde Epistle he saith that the Churche of Rome had the preeminence ouer al the Churches in the worlde geuen not by the Apostles but by our Sauiour Christ him selfe This is it that disliked you in so auncient a Father and constant Martyr of Iesus Christe and for this you accompte him myne and not yours He is in deede myne and not yours as al the other olde Fathers are when they come to trial In the meane time remember that I haue alleged euident places of S. Chrysostome of S. Gregorie and of Anacletus for the Primacie of the Pope and by Goddes grace I intende to allege more hereafter Iewel Pag. 96. And yet of the same tvvo seueral Orders S. Hierome seemeth to make only one Order For thus he vvriteth Audio quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam vt Diaconos Praesbyteris id est Episcopiâ— anteferret I heare saie there is a man broken out vnto suche wilful furie that he placeth Deacons before Priestes that is to saie before Bishoppes c. Harding That there is difference betwixt Bishops and Priestes that termes of diuers significations maie not be vsed at pleasure Item of holy Orders c. The .9 Chapt. But
is in heauen Out of this Scripture if your good wil and cunning would serue you ye maie see an argument plainely made from Angelles to menne Likewise from God to the Pope Petre amas me Pasce oues meas Peter louest thou me Iohan. 21. Feede or rule my sheepe If your cunning can not compasse suche Argumentes M. Iewel that are vsed in Scriptures from heauen to earth from Angelles to menne from God to the Pope yet it were good for you to leaue skoffing at suche argumentes as are vsed in the very Scriptures Iewel Pag. 100. But hovv knovveth M. Harding vvhat Orders of Angelles and Archangelles there be in heauen VVhat they doo Hovv they deale c. Harding Of Angelles to what purpose Osee was alleged of the Head inuisible and visible Forsooth I maie easily know that The 14. Chapt. whiche is euidently reueled in the Scripture yea so euidently that yoâ—â— ignorance must seeme to grosse to aske any suche question Of the Angelles That there be orders of Angelles it appeareth boâ—â— in diuers other places and specially by the fourth Chapter of S. Matthew where we finde that the Angellâ—s waite on Christe Matth 4. Beholde saith the Euangeliste the Angelles came and ministred vnto him You might haue founde mention of many thousandes of Angelles in the 12. Hebre. 12. Chapter to the Hebrewes There is mention also made of diuers Orders of Angelles in the epistle to the Colossians Coloss 1. Siue throni sine Dominationes siue Principatus siue Potestates omnia per ipsum in ipso creata sunt Ephes 3. 4. Archangelles 1. Thess 4. The like is to be seene in the epistle to the Ephesians Of Archangelles we reade in the epistle to the Thessalonians that our Lord shal come downe in the voice and in the commaundement or shoute of the Archangel and in the trompe of God In S. Luke we reade that there is more ioie in heauen before the Angelles for one sinner doing penaunce Luc. 15. then there is for 99. iust menne that neede no penaunce In the epistle to the Hebrewes we read that al the Angelles doo honour Christe Hebre. 1. and that al Angelles are spirites to doo seruice sent into seruice for them that doo receiue the inheritance of saluation Dionysius de Coelesti Hierarch cap. 6. Tobia 3. S. Dionyse the Areopagite speaketh of nine Orders of Angelles The Scripture in sundry places telleth vs that the Angelles doo offer vp the praiers of the faithful before God This we knowe of Angelles in heauen that they obey one God that they are spirites so confirmed in grace that now they can not sinne that they are ready to doo Goddes commaundement at al times that there are Orders emong them as there shal be emong them whiche shal be saued emong vs some placed in greater glorie then some others as S. Paule declareth by the diuersitie of Starres 1. Cor. 15. that are not al of one brightnesse We knowe that they being Spirites confirmed in grace hauing no motions at al to doo any thing contrarie to Gods wil neede no Pope to correct to pounish to excommunicate to depriue to depose them and to assoile them This muche we knowe concerning the Angelles and this might you M. Iewel also haue knowen And this confession if occasion so required would better haue becomme you then your skoffes fitter for a common Table Ieaster then for a man who professeth to teache others the duetie of life and truthe of beleefe To S. Dionysius M. Ievvel commoÌ„ly argueth negatiuely from autorities that wrote purposely of the gouernment of the Churche and made no mention of one Pope whiche you obiecte we saie that we holde him for vnskilful in his Logique who deduceth Argumentes negatiuely from any Fathers authoritie as for example That Father or this Father spake not of the proceding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne Ergo there is no suche thing Yet it had benne more for your commendation to haue argued from Heauen to earth from Angelles to menne from God to the Pope then so sottelike to reason against al good order of learning from Authorities negatiuely Howbeit in dede the manner of your reasoning is not from God to the Pope from Angelles to menne from Heauen to earth â–ª but from truth to errour from Religion to Hugonotrie from Christianitie to Paganisme from good to naught from Christe to Antichriste from God to Satan whiche manner of argumentes is not very holesome The Obiection of the name of Iosue mistaken for Osee You make muche a doo for that I mistake the naâ—â— of Iosue for Osee To mistake one mannes name for an other as long as there is no preiudice thereby made to the necessary doctrine of our Faith and the place truely alleged althoughe the name were mistaken it is but humaine errour In that I named Iosue for Osee I acknowledge myne errour and wishe you would doâ— the like when you erre and then ye should cal in againe al that you haue written hitherto wherein you should doo wel in wise mennes Iudgement and most safely for the wealth of your owne soule But to traine the people from truth to heresie and stubbornly therein to continew as you doo M. Iewel and where no other shifte wil serue you there to assaie whether you can skoffe out the truthe this is not humaine errour but a Deuilish practise Osee to vvhat purpose alleged The place of Osee was alleged for no other purpose but to shew that God doth vs to vnderstand that his Churche militant is then in most perfite state and in best order when al true beleeuers bothe conuerted Iewes and Gentiles doo obey one Head Now then if in the Gouernment of one Head consiste the best Order and state that can be planted in the Church though it be true Christe one and only head Inuisible that our Sauiour Christ be that one Inuisible Head as I neuer denied but that he is yet that the Visible Churche atteine vnto that perfite Order and state whiche the Prophete Osee commendeth for the best Head Visible it behoueth that it haue one Visible general Head that shal keepe and mainteine visible and external Order emong al the faithful This is the force of my drifte Neither for al that did I denie Iohan. 10. but that Christe is that one Head that Christe is that one Shepeheard that S. Iohn spake of whiche I doo openly confesse in my Confutation of the Apologie in the selfe same place where I allege the saying of the Prophete Osee and the saying of Christe out of S. Ihon. So that you needed not to allege al that out of S. Hierome Nicolaus Lyra and S. Augustine to proue that which I confessed before M. Ievvels coÌ„moÌ„ maÌ„ner in al his vvritiÌ„ges But this is your manner alwaies M. Iewel to shewe your copie in matters vndoubted and impertinent and when ye come
Al are committed to thee the one whole flocke to one Neither art thou onely the Pastour of al the sheepe but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours Demaundest thou of me howe I prooue it Forsooth out of the woorde of God Ioan. 21. For I praie you to whom I wil not saie of the Bisshoppes but also of the Apostles were al the sheepe so absolutely and indeterminately committed If thou loue me Peter feede my sheepe whiche sheepe The people of this or of that citie of this or of that countrie or kingdome My sheepe quod he Who now doth not euidently see that Christe did not appointe him certaine but assigned him al Where no distinction is made there nothing is excepted Thus you see how litle cause you had to saie why doth M. Harding auouche so great a matter of him selfe onely without farther authoritie Iewel Pag. 103. And if this so large Commission be to Feede and feede so many vvhy then doth the Pope feede so litle Harding The Pope feedeth and why Christe appointed him to be his Vicare The stubbornesse of Heretiques is a lette The .18 Chapt. that his diligent feeding can not take place in many Howe manie Articles of the Christian Doctrine had the peruersitie of Heretiques wrapped vp in a Confusion and brought in doubte that fewe menne knewe howe to vnfolde them The Popes diligent feeding hath so by General Councelles through his authoritie and care assembled vnfolded and disclosed all the false craftes and sleightes of Heretiques that nowe euery man that wil maie haue in a readinesse by perusing the Canons of the Councelles what Doctrine is true and holesome what is false and heretical Of late yeares he emploied his diligence in calling all The Pope feedeth but some refuse his good foode and feede of Poison the Protestantes vnto the Councel of Trent he gaue them safe Conductes to come and departe without danger of their personnes and there during the time of their abode to propone argue and dispute of the pointes in cōtrouersie with al freedome VVhy the Ministers of England vvēt not to the General Councel at Trent most liberal and free Safe cōductes being graunted them But ye of England knowing your owne weaknesse and that ye were not so wel hable to prooue your doctrine in learned Assemblies as ye were with boasting Chalenges and bolde talkes to prate it out of pulpites emong the ignorant at home least with shame ye should there haue ben put to silence and prooued vnlearned wylily absented your selues Notwithstanding libertie was geuen you to come and saie for your Gospel what ye could and as it appeareth in the Actes of the same to frame your safe Conducte if ye desliked the fourme set foorth in the Councel in as ample manner for your owne safegarde and benefite as ye could deuise Iewel Pag. 103. Againe vvhere learned M. Harding to reason thus Christe is ascended into heauen Ergo the Pope is head of the vvhole vvorlde Harding Nay where learned M. Iewel to fashon suche peeuish argumentes of his owne deuise and fathering them vpon his Aduersarie to scoffe at them as if they were of his Aduersaries making If this Argument be naught let him amend it that framed it If it be ridiculous the Reader may see what a ridiculous head he hath that brought it forth My reason dependeth in this sorte If it had pleased Christ to haue remained here visibly emong vs alwaies and to haue taken continual order him selfe for the external gouernment of the Churche we should not haue needed any other general head but Christe him selfe who had ben sufficient But for asmuch as Christes bodily and visible presence through his Ascension was for good purposes taken awaie from vs that we might haue better occasion to exercise faith and the holy Sacramentes it was needeful that in his steede he should leaue some one General Vicegerent In. 24. caput Luca. and Vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose termeth him that should haue ful authoritie to rule the whole Churche The partes of this reason are wel linked together both by diuinitie and also by logique As M. Iewel hath framed it it serueth for nothing but to make sporte emong Prentises I allege not Christes Ascension for the ful and sufficient cause of hauing one general Head as M. Iewel would beare menne in hande if any be so simple to beleeue him The cause vvhy Christe hath placed his Vicare here in his stede Ambros in 24. cap. Lucae but as the occasion why he should place an other in the absence of his Visible person in his steede The necessitie of the Churche that disorder and confusion be auoided and that vnitie be kepte considered together with the great loue that Christe hath to the Churche is the ful cause why Christe placed in his steede a general Vicegerent Vicarium amoris sui the vicare of his loue as S. Ambrose calleth him Iewel Ibidem But ye saie God speaketh not novv vnto vs mouth to mouth c. Harding What rule is like to be if the Scripture be made ruler and gouernour Your drifte is in this place The. 19. Chapt. to put the whole gouernment of the Church quite from the Pope whom Chrysostome as I haue tolde you before taketh to be the vniuersal Head bicause he is S. Peters Successour and to driue vs to deliuer the whole rule vnto the Scripture and that being remoued quite from any one certaine sense and leafte to mennes Phantasies to descant vpon it What vnitie and good Order wil folowe thereof they of Germanie ye of England the Lutherans the Zuinglians the Caluinistes the Osiandrines the Zuencfeldians the Anabaptistes the new Puritanes that now spring vp so freshly and other sectes wherewith the worlde swarmeth haue tolde vs already the whiche could neuer yet come to any good vnitie and common agreement Ye leaue vs also an other sorte of gouernours Apostles Ephes 4. Prophetes Euangelistes Pastours and Doctours of whom S. Paule speaketh If these be the Gouernours appointed by holy Scripture how falleth it out that ye contrary to Scripture haue geuen the supreme gouernment of your Church of England to laye Princes some being vnder their nources gouernance some being women The cas◠thus standing if the Ministers agree not in doctrine hovv shal vnitie be made and the people kepte vnpoisoned If these forenamed the Apostles c. be the right gouernours how happeth it that they can doo nothing concerning Order to be taken for the Churche but by authoritie deriued from a mere laie power If these that is to saie the successours of the Apostles Prophetes c. be the right gouernours what if any of these iarre and fal at square emong them selues as it hath oftentimes ben seene either within the compasse of one Realme or in diuers Realmes and doo poison the people with sundry Heresies to whom shal we resorte to haue them called home and reduced vnto order whom haue
you least vs in this case as Iudge and supreme Gouernour to ende al Dissensions and to condemne perilous Heresies They of Germanie take them selues to be as good menne and to knowe the Truth as wel if no better as either D. Parker of Canturburie or M. Grindal of London or Bacheler Yonge of Yorke or any of the other wiued Priestes Monkes and Friers yea as M Iew. of Sarisburie him selfe Ye of England wil not yelde to them of Saxonie they of Lifeland Swethen Denmarke Pole Scotland Zuitzerland and Geneua wil not yelde them selues subiectes to either of you both And yet euery one of these sundry congregations wil preach stil the doctrine of their owne secte one coÌ„trarie to an other How now M. Iewel Let vs heare what wise tale you caÌ„ tel vs by whose authoritie we maie come from these great Dissensions and manifold Schismes to Vnitie Intreatie can not doo it Colloquies meetinges and Conferences of the learned of eche secte can not bring it to passe The more it hath ben attempted the worse ende hath euer benne concluded Haue not you leaft vs then a beautiful Church a blessed coÌ„panie of Ministers that wil not come to Order Yea leauing vs without any lawful authoritie of one Head to reduce vs to vnitie do you not leaue vs in endlesse strifes and indeterminable broilles Be we not much bound vnto you Were not the worlde wise and wel aduised to forsake al old orders and to put coÌ„fidence in this your new deuise The same selfe S. Chrysostome whom you allege to haue al ruled by the Scriptures sawe a litle farther then you see M. Iewel when he said that the charge of the whole worlde was committed to Peter Chrysost in Matth. Homil. 55. Ambros in cap. 24. Luca. Theodoritus in Epist ad Renatum Cyprianus lib. 3. Epist 13. So did S. Ambrose when he named Peter and by a consequent Peters Successour the Vicare of Christes loue So did Theodoritâ—â— when he said the See of Rome holdeth the sterne and hath the gouernment of the Churches of the whole worlde You allege S. Cyprian though farre otherwise then he writeth and that out of that epistle in whiche he willeth Stephanus the Pope to depose Martianus the Bishop of Arles in Fraunce for Heresie and put an other in his roome whiche argueth a supreme authoritie of gouernment in the Pope you allege him I saie as if he said that therefore there are many Bishoppes in the Churche that if one fal into heresie the rest maie helpe But what if there be as many Heretique Bishoppes as there be Catholique as it hath commonly benne seene in the East Churche What if the Heretiques being more learned wil not yeelde Cyprian ad Cornelium lib. 1. Epist. 3. S. Cyprian in an other place spareth not to tel you that Schismes aÌ„d heresies rise of no other cause then for that the whole brotherhed that is to saie the companie of Christian people Obeye not one high Prieste that is in Christes steede Whiche saying by what reason it taketh place in euery seueral Dioces by the same it is to be vnderstanded in respecte of the whole worlde For as Heresies rise of disobedience of the people to their Bishop so they rise no lesse yea rather muche more as experience teacheth of the disobedience of the Bishoppes them selues if they wil not be vnder one Head And as the people are not kepte in vnitie but by being vnder one Bishop so neither the Bishoppes excepte they be likewise vnder one chiefe Head and ruler who is the Successour of Peter to whom as louing Christe more then the reste whiche the Scripture sheweth the charge not onely of the lambes and weaker sheepe but also of the great and stronger sheepe was committed as S. Ambrose before alleged hath wel noted Whether S. Peter were faulte worthy when S. Paule reproued him as you tel vs without proufe Defence pag. 103. it remaineth in question betwixte S. Augustine and S. Hierome But if there were any thing worthy of reprehension in S. Peter that S. Paule sawe there was great humilitie in S. Peter to agnise the faulte by the warning of his inferiour Likewise there was in S. Victor the Pope in that he would geue eare vnto S. Ireneus Of that S. Peters humilitie thus speaketh S. Cyprian in his epistle to Quintus whiche is also rehearsed of S Augustine August li. 2. de Baptis cont Donatist cap. 1. Nam nec Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem aedificauit Ecclesiam suam cùm secum Paulus de Circumcisione disceptaret postmodum vendicauit sibi aliquid insolenter aut arroganter assumpsit vt diceret se primatum tenere obtemperari à nouellis posteris sibi potius debere Example of humilitie to S. Peter For neither Peter whom our Lorde chose to be first and vppon whom he builded his Churche at what time Paule reasoned with him about Circumcision by and by chalenged any thing proudly vnto him selfe or stately tooke ought vpon him as to saie that he helde the Primacie or the chiefe rule ouer al and that suche as came newly to the Faith and were his aftercommers ought rather to obeie him But this kinde of humilitie is not found emong Heretiques The more courteously they be warned of their Heresie the more stubborne they growe and staie not so but doo the vttermost they can to make their parties as good as the Catholiques as by sundry olde heretiques to them that haue reade the Trâ—gedies by them plaied in the Churche is most euident How now M. Iewel What remedie Shal we resorte in this case to any Head that hath General authoritie or stand stil iarring and snarling the one at the other without alremedie For ought I see you are like to leaue vs stil in the briers Touching your gloses of the Canon Lawe they maie perhappes one daie if it shal be thought worth the labour be altogether answered in some one seueral treatise where doubtelesse it shal appeare to your smal estimation with what beggerly ragges and clowtes you haue patched together your clowted cloke Iewel Pag. 104. For the rest M. Harding saith One King is hable to rule one Kingdome Ergo one Pope is hable to rule the vvhole Churche Harding My talke runneth not so bare as you rehearse it your grace is alwaie to reporte worse then you finde I said that a King or Queene in gouerning a Realme ruleth not al in his owne person but doth many thinges by his Deputees and Officers Euen so why maie not the Pope in al Christendome take order by other fitte menne hauing from him commission notwithstanding his person be not present For very shame M. Iewel make not your Aduersaries tale worse then you finde it For by that you must muche discredite your cause Iewel Pag. 104. Of the gouernment of Princes vve haue daielie practise But of Popes that euer vsed this vniuersal Dominion ouer the vvhole Church of
proufe is nedelesse the thing is manifest * Harding Here treating of Succession as thou seest Reader I haue among other things brought forth TertulliaÌ„ demauÌ„ding of the Heretikes the Original of their Churches Tertul. lib. de praescription and the Register of their Bishops succeding one an an other from the beginning til his tyme. Againe I haue alleged S. Augustine naming 38. Popes of Rome in order August Epist 165 and thereof coÌ„cluded that bicause neuer a one of them was a Donatist the Donatists were al Heretikes Whereupon I also concluded that seing among al the Popes from S. Peter til this daie none was of M. Iewels opinion he and his felowes the Zuinglians and Caluinistes must by the rule S. of Augustine be taken for Heretiques For the true Churche is where the true ordinarie and manifest Succession is from the Apostles til these our dayes This only I require of thee gentle reader that thou woldest vouchesafe to reade this matter through and not to iudge before al be heard For in deede following M. Iewelles confuse order of writing I could not dispose my thinges in such Methode and Order as the weight of the matter requireth Bicause the matter is of importance I intend to leaue out no parte of M. Iewelles woordes whereby he maie seeme to impugne the Catholique doctrine And by the treatie of this one poynte it will appeare what huge bookes we should write if we should directe a ful answer to euerie parte of his idle talke in the pretensed Defence conteined Thus then he beginneth Iewel Pag. 127. Here hath M. Harding taken some paines more then ordinarie He thought if he could by any coloure make the vvorld beleeue vve haue neither Bisshoppes nor Priestes nor Deacons this daie in the Church of England he might the more easily claime the vvhole right vnto himselfe And in deede if it vvere certaine that the religion and truth of God passeth euermore orderly by Succession and none othervvise then vvere Succession vvhereof he hath tolde vs so long a tale a verie good substantial Argument of the Truth Harding Irenaeus saith it is a certaine Rule to knowe the Truth by For hauing reckened twelue Popes who in order succeded after S. Peter to wit Linus Anacletus Clemens Euaristus Alexander Sixtus Telesphorus Hyginus Pius Aniceâ—â— Soter and Eleutherius who then was the twelfth Bishop from the Apostles Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 3. immediatly he saith thus Hac ordinatione successione ea quae est ab Apostolis in Ecclesia Traditio veritatis praeconiatio peruenit vsque ad nos Et est pleâ—issima haec â—stensio vnim eandem viuificatricem fidem esse quae in Ecclesia ab Apostolis vsque nunc sit coÌ„seruata troditain veritate By this order and Succession the Tradition and preaching of the truth whiche is in the Churche from the Apostles time came euen to our daies And this is a most ful declaration that the faith whiche is kept in the Churche and deliuered in truth from the Apostles time euen til this present hower is the one selfe same faith which is the causer of life and of saluation He saith it is a most ful declaration of the true and liuely faith And you wil confesse I trow that where that faith is there is the true Churche of God Such a Succession of Bishoppes in diuers countries we haue and can shew it from the Apostles time til this daie As the rew and order of Popes in al Chronicles doth shew to the eie and witnesseth to the vnderstanding But such a Succession M. Iewel and his fellowes haue not therefore by his owne confession we haue a good substantial Argument of the Truth Iewel Pag. 127. But Christe saith In cathedra Moysi sederunt Scribae Pharisaei by order of succession the scribes Math. 22. and Pharisees sitte in Moyses chaier Harding Wel handled M. Iewel You bring these wordes as though Christe had spoken them in the reproche of Succession Whereas Christ in that place made an ArgumeÌ„t for Succession in this wise Super cathedram Moysi sederunt Scriba Pharisaei Math. 23. omnia ergo quaecunque dixerint vobis seruate facite Vpon the chaier of Moyses the Scribes and Pharisees haue sitten Therefore kepe ye and do ye what so euer they saie vnto you or commaund you to kepe Could you not see that Ergo M. Iewel whiche is to saie Therefore Could you not perceiue that Christ made a plaine argument why and why only the Scribes and Pharisees should be obeied The matter goeth as if in moe wordes it had ben thus said The Scribes and Pharisees be naughtie men their workes are not to be folowed they â—ie heauy and importable burdens laying them on mens shoulders Math. 23. but they themselues wil not so much as once mâ—â—â— them with their finger They do al their workes for a shew Thus Christ him selfe doth paint them forth al whiche notwithstanding for onely Successions sake bicause by order of Succession they sit in Moyses chaier which my father and I haue planted in respecte thereof doo ye and kepe what so euer they commaund you to doo and kepe Mark the vvord of keeping Marke that he bindeth the people to obeie the very Scribes for Successions sake and to obeye them in keeping and obseruing the former lawes and rites To keepe I saye Beware of that Bishop who not succeding but vsurping the Chaier of good men as M. Iewel doth hauing iustled him selfe into the Chaier of good S. Osmund and others mo in the Churche of Sarisburie doth yet commaund the people not to keepe thinges but to cast them away These nevv Bisshoppes vvil not the people to kepe their faith but to chaÌ„ge their faith There is no Bishop of this newe Religion that commaundeth the people to keepe their olde faith and law but alwaies he biddeth them to change it But Christe bad the people to doo that whiche the Pharisees commaunded them to keepe and not to folow their deedes The Pharisees killed Christe but by keeping their lawes and Orders they should neuer haue come thereto If euer place of holy Scripture made for any truth in the Gospel this place which M. Iewel bringeth against Succession maketh for it and so for it that it can neuer be auoided What Doctor euer wrote vpon the holy Scriptures who might not now be brought for a witnesse of this my assertion S. Augustine saith that Christe made the people secure concerning euil Rulers Ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris Cathedra descreretur August Epist 166. in qua coguntur etiam mali bona dicere Neque enim suae sunt quae dicunt sed Dei qui in cathedra Vnitatis doctrinam posuit veritatis Lest for their sakes the chaier of holesom Doctrine should be forsaken in the whiche yea wicked men are forced to saie that whiche is good For the thinges whiche they saie are not their owne but Gods who in
is the Priest which after the order of Melchisedech offereth vp vnto God those that beleue in him by a seruice of godly worship which passeth the law Why would you not see those wordes that folowed in Cyrillus M. Iewel First Christ had a Predecessour in his Priesthod euen Melchisedech the high Priest Secondly Melchisedech is here declared to haue offered vnto God and that Christ in offering vnto God fulfilled his figure whereas you would haue Melchisedech to make his oblation to Abraham and not to God Thirdly the thing offered by Melchisedech was not only bread and wine but Abraham the Father of al beleeuers was offered vnto God by Melchisedech And so Christe in his last Supper offered vnto God not now bread and wine only but by his almighty power he turned the bread into the seede of Abraham and so he offered vnto God al the faithful which by reason of their head Christ being truly conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine were also signified present as members ioined with the head and so were al offered â—nto God Now whereas Christ was of the tribe of Iuda that made for him for out of that tribe the Messias was looked for by the Succession of the hâ—â—se of Dauid as the Pharisees them selues confessed And thereby they ought to haue vnderstanded that their Succession from Aaron should yeeld vnto the Succession of Dauid who had said that his Lorde Psal 109. and Sonne should be also a Priest after the order of Melchisedech And the Iewes knew that they ought to haue yelded to their Messias as to their chiefe head so long before promised If you can shew vs M. Iewel that as Christ was prophecied of to put the Priestes of Aaron out of their places so Luther Zuinglius or Caluine was prophecied of to destroie the Succession of S. Peter we yeeld vnto you But as the high Priestes and Pharisees were neuer bound to yeeld vnto any maÌ„ but only vnto Christ at his first comming so S. Peters Successours ought neuer to yeeld but only to Christ at his second comming And so by al meanes the Succession is perpetual and the true Religion neuer lacked it visible and cleare as this new Religion doth which for lacke of it can not possibly stand long no more then that of the Arians or of the Nestorians did Sap. 4. For Bastard slippes take not deepe rootes And therefore though they seeme to florish for a time yet soone they vanish away But the Tree which Christe hath planted that onely shal endure for euer That saie we is the Chaier of Peter with al suche Successions of Bishops as keepe them in the vnitie of Peters Chaier Iewel Chrysostome imagineth the Pharisees thus to say Chrysost in Math. Hom. 39. Thou art not of the house of Priestes The Councel hath not graunted it thee the emperour hath not geuen it thee Harding You know this author is not S. Chrysostome and yet stil you name him so not so much as addiÌ„g M. Ievvel very ofte allegeth the writer of opus imperfeâ—ctum in Mattheum for Chrysostome knowing him not so to be Hom. 39. in opere imperfecto whereby we might vnderstand whom you meane wherein of purpose you doo vntruly Now to the matter This writter whether he was Maximinus Arianus as some auouche or who so euer he was doth not onely shew that the Pharisees might haue had suche thoughtes but also he sheweth that the signes and the true priesthod agreed al and mette vpon Christ who had his power not of men but of God And farther he addeth there in this wise Sacerdos qui est secundùm Deum omnem Sacerdotem timet offendere quia omnes ex Deo fieri arbitratur quamuis ex hominibus sit factus Euery Priest which is of God feareth to offend any Priest bicause he thinketh euery Priest to be made of God although he be made of men But you M. Iewel thinke no Prieste at al now to be made of God To be made I say For you wil graunt none other Priesthod then that Spiritual and internal Priesthod which is common to wemen and children as wel as to men As for external Priesthood you thinke none at al to be made and therfore you despise not only euery Priest made of men but also you despise the highest Priest of al to wit the Bisshop of Rome and al his predecessours being aboue thirtie Martyrs and mo Confessours and blessed Saintes that haue sitten in that See and haue exercised their power ouer the whole Church as it is wel knowen of S. Clement Eleutherius Victor Stephanus and others The Pharisees wordes may be truly applied to you M. Iewel For you wil haue no spiritual power to be in the Church but that which the temporal Counsel or Emperour Laie Princes made gouernours of Christes Churche in al thinges aÌ„d causes or some like secular Prince doth geue For these officers haue you made the supreme gouernours of Christes Church in al thinges and causes He that saith in al leaueth out nothing at al wherein the temporal Prince is not supreme Gouernour Therefore in your Church it is a good argument thou maist not doo the office of a Bishop preach absolue or Baptize bicause thou art not admitted thereto by the Ciuile Magistrate I wisse they of the Clergie in the Primitiue Churche would rather haue suffered a thowsand deathes then they would haue submitted the power which Christe gaue to them vnto the laie gouernours who although Christ alloweth them and commaundeth them to be obeyed yet were not made by him maisters of his Religion and of his Churche The power must come from the Apostles by lawful Succession which shal rule Christes Church and not from the Emperour or from the Kinge muche lesse from a woman or from a childe hauing otherwise neuer so good right to thinheretance of a Crowne Iewel Thus to maineteine them selues in credite for that they had Succession and continuance from Aaron and satâ— in Moyses chaire they kept Christs quite out of possession Harding They would haue done so in deede M. Iewel but he did put them out of possession bicause they would haue had there priesthod to continue longer then the prophecies had foretolde and Goddes Counsel had determined For the lawe and Prophetes brought al to Christe and there was shewed that a change should be made by him Bring vs forthe the like Prophecies that Luther Zuinglius Caluine or that lusty Gospeller Beza must put the Pope out of possession and forthwith by like Miracle bring you to passe that the whole Churche I meane al them that professe the Faith of the Romaine Church be dispersed and destroied as Christ dispersed and destroied the Iewes then we wil leaue the Pope yea Christ also and follow you and them as our second Messias But if as from Aaron til Christes first coÌ„ming the High Priestes ought to haue yelded their possessioÌ„ to no man that euer came so from S.
ad Antichristum velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent VVould God they vvere not al gonne by consent together from religion to superstition from saith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist These fevv vvordes considering either the speaker or the place vvhere they vvere spoken may seme sufficient Harding If you had considered either the speaker or the place so as you ought to haue donne you might haue benne ashamed to haue alleged the woordes of a Catholike Prelate for your purpose For what soeuer he meant by them you may be wel assured he meant not to say that the Catholique Churche was gonne from faith to infidelitie or from Christe to Antichrist Otherwise he him selfe would not haue stil continued in that Catholique Churche which had seemed to him to haue lacked faith Cornelius episcopus Bitōtinus and Christe But nowe the man is knowen in al Italie and is aliue to this daye who stil continueth in dayly preaching and in exhorting al men to flie from your heresies to the Catholike faith and to keepe them in the Churche so that his deedes do wel shewe what he meant by his wordes The whiche rule S. Augustine would haue kepte in the vnderstanding of what so euer Writers A lesson hovv to vnderstande mennes vvordes in matter of Religion Contra epist Parmen li. 3. cap. 4. and specially touching religion And who so euer doth not so vnderstand mennes wordes by their deedes vpon his blindnesse he cryeth out in this sorte Incredibilis est coecita hominum omnino nescio quemadmodum credi posset esse in hominibus tanta peruersitas nisi experimento verborum suorum factorúmque patesceret vsque adeo se clausos habere cordis oculos vt commemorent sanctae Scripturae testimonia nec intueantur in factis prophetarum quemadmodum intelligenda sint verba Prophetarum It is an incredible blindnesse of menne and verely I knowe not howe it might be beleeued that there is suche frowardnesse in menne onlesse by the proufe of their wordes and deedes it appeared openly that the eyes of their harte were so fast closed that they allege the testimonies of holy scripture and do not consider by the doinges of the Prophetes how the wordes of the Prophetes are to be vnderstanded And straight after where S. Augustine saith those wordes he sheweth by example what he meant Hieremie had written Hier. 2. what hath Chaffe to doo with the Wheate The Donatistes thereupon reasoned that the Catholikes were Chaffe and them selues Wheate but saith S. Augustine by waie of exposition there did Hieremie that said the Iewes were Chaffe forsake their Church and fellowship No verely How so euer then Hieremie the prophete meant we ought to vnderstand his wordes according to his deedes And seing as concerning his deedes he liued in one Temple and faith with them whom he called Chaffe we may be wel assured that by the name of Chaffe he meant not that the Iewes had not true Faith and Religion but only that they had not true Charitie and Obedience Euen so if M. Iewel would consider that the Bishop of Bitonto goeth not from Italie to Geneua nor to Germanie nor to England but both abideth stil in his Bisshoprike and hath so much preached against these present Heresies of Luther Zuinglius and Caluin that now three whole Volumes of his eloquent Italian Sermons are extant in print if he would haue considered this he might haue benne ashamed with such a great brauarie and so ofte to haue alleged a Catholike mannes woordes against Rome the mother Churche of al Catholikes S. Augustine calleth it an incredible blindnesse so to doo and suche as no man would beleeue except he saw it vsed But by whom Verely by Heretikes who hauing no truth for them doo stil make vaine bragges and shewes of woordes when the very deedes of them whose woordes they bring are against them Which thing I stand the longer vppon bicause M. Iewel hath vsed this practise aboue a thowsand times in his pretensed Defence M. Ievvel euery vvhere allegeth their vvordes for him vvhom by their deedes he vvel knoweth to be against him Aboue a thousand tymes I say he hathe alleged the woordes of Schoolemen Gloses Summistes and Canonistes for his purpose whereas he wel knoweth they beleeued al suche as he is to be detestable Heretiques and for suche condemned them Yet must they be brought in and that so often so seriouslie and with suche Preambles as though he woulde beare the worlde in hande they were cleare of his side Neither did Cornelius the Bisshoppe of Bitonto speake of the Bisshoppes of Rome specially as M. Iewel would beare the Readers in hande Bitōtinus in oratione habita in Concil Tridentino but generally of the Christians saying that they haue wandered like sheepe in hilles and feeldes and that the chiefe of them are turned from authoritie vnto Lordlynes from right vnto wronge and would God saith he they were not vtterly as it were with one consent bowed from Religion to superstition from faith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist Neither doth he say they are al gonne as M. Iewel englisheth the woordes Hovv M. Ievvel falsifieth his allegation The woorde al is not there Againe he saith not they are gonne by consent altogether but velut prorsus vnanimes as it were vtterly of one minde The worde velut as it were doth temper his woordes but M. Iewel hath leafte out velut and hath put in this worde al lest if the sentence of that Bishop should be thus tempered it should not seeme greuous inough His meaning was to complaine as euery good man dayly doth vppon the vices of menne who liue as if they had neither Faithe nor Religion And that woulde haue appeared most plaine if M. Iewel had not cutte of the later woordes of Cornelius vncourteously stopping him from telling out his whole tale For in the very same sentence it foloweth A Christo ad Antichristum quin à Deo ad Epicurum vel ad Pythagoram velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent Would God they had not as it were vtterly with one consent gonne a side from Christe to Antichriste yea rather from God to Epicure or to Pythagoras These last woordes whiche made al plaine were omitted by M. Iewel as his custome is and the authours tale is falsified and his woordes abused For any man woulde soone iudge that they goe not to Epicure or Pythagoras to the ende to mainteine the doctrine and opinions that those Philosophers helde Pardonne me good Reader if herein I seeme to long For at this tyme I doo but as it were geue thee a shewe what and howe muche might be said in euery other Article of the Booke if I thought it labour worthe to discusse them particularly For I assure thee in my conscience there is not any thing in this pretensed Defence whiche might not be wel and easily answered were not that it seemeth to me a thing both superfluous so to answere suche heapes of
accusations when there are two witnesses It is his part only to admit accusations against Priestes who is the iudge of Priestes and euery Iudge is aboue him ouer whom he sitteth in iudgement Therefore a Bishop by Gods lawe is aboue a priest whose iudge he is allowed to be Epiphanius har 75. Which argument Epiphanius bringeth against Aerius the heretike who said as now M. Iewel saith that Priestes and Bishops were equal Hieron ad EuagriuÌ„ Againe S. Hierome who defended that the names of Bishops and of Priestes were confounded in the beginning and that the order of priesthod in them was one both which thinges are true yet he made an euident difference betwen the power of them graunting that a Priest could doo al that a Bishop can Hieronymus aduersus Luciferianos excepta ordinatione the ordering or geuing of holy orders excepted In that point then he beleued a Bishop to be aboue a Priest Now say I such a Bishop as by Gods lawe is aboue a Priest as who may only make Priestes and geue them power to consecrate and in Christes person to make and offer vnto God his body and bloud such a Bishop or such a Priest you haue not in al your Church vnlesse they be Apostates and Renegates who being once made priestes with vs haue now denied the faith wherein they were Christened and are runne out of the Church vnto your false Congregations and scattered troupes Iewel Neiter doth the Church of England this daye depende of them vvhom you so often cal Apostates as if our Church vvere no Churche vvithout them Harding S. Hierome said no Priest no Church Aduersus Lucifer Epistola ad Heliodorum and by a priest he meant him that maketh Christes body with hâ—â— holy mouth and offereth the same For these are his own wordes but such a priest is made only of a Bishop who is by Gods law aboue him And such Priestes haue you none besides Apostates Therfore your Church either is none or dependeth of Apostates and Renegates Iewel Pag. 131. They are no Apostates M. Harding that is rather your ovvne name and of good right belongeth vnto you Harding He is an Apostata who forsaketh the good profession VVho are Apostates which he once had But the profession either of Monkes or of the Catholikes whom you cal Papistes is good and godly For concerning Monkes they are the men who after the counsel of our Sauiour Matt. 19. professe to geue awaie their goodes to the pore or forsake the hope of goodes whiche may be had in the world and follow Christe gelding them selues or making them selues Eunuches for the kingdom of heauen This must needes be a good profession And as for the Catholikes they are the onely true members of Christes Church and none other can be Catholiques beside those whom you cal Papistes Bicause none others haue benne alwaies in al places and al times sith Christes Ascension And we haue ben so as our predecessours and pastours in the See of Rome with al other pastours agreeing therewith doo euidently shew euen to the eye Therfore who so haue forsaken their profession and rule as Renegate monkes and Friers haue or our Churâ—h as those priestes haue who being rightly ordered in the catholique Churche communicate now with you they are Apostates and Renegates And wheras you say that to be my name and of good right to belong vnto me there can be no iuste cause to cal me an Apostata except it be for departing from you But ye are al Apostates your selues For it can be named but of what Catholike felowship ye are departed whom ye leafte behind you al Italie Fraunce and Spaine c. who went out with you a peece of Germanie Suitzerland England and Scotland and after whom ye went some after Luther some after Zuinglius some after Caluin Therefore ye are al Apostates Now when I departed from you with whom notwithstanding I neuer remained wholly I departed from Apostates and came to that fellowship which neuer forsooke their former faith nor went out nor leaft any behind them who might complaine of their departure nor had any peculiar Captaines but onely the Apostles and their Successours that folowed them lineally from age to age Therefore the name of Apostata belongeth not to me but to you and to your felowes If the Reader say that we doo but sclaunder one the other let him consider the reason and not the wordes An Apostata is one The Protestantes be Apostates who faileth and depareth from some certaine lawful head We departe from none but kepe God Christ and his Ministerial headdes Bishops Priestes Kinges and Magistrates But the Protestantes haue denied al the Bishops aliue in the whole earth who liued before and in Luthers time They haue and doo rebel in al countries for the pretence of Religion And so they forsake both the obedience of spiritual and temporal gouernours therefore they are by al meanes Apostates Iewel Pag. 131. They are for a great part learned and graue and godly men and are much ashamed to see your solies Harding There is no learning against faith What learning cal you it when a man learneth to denie this to be Christes body which he said to be his body Or to holde Matt. 26. that the Church is sometimes hid Matt. 5. which Christ said to be a Citie built vpon a hil that can not be hid What grauitie is this to be moued and caried out of the Church and to be tossed hither and thither with euery puffe of new doctrine Nowe to be a Hussite then a Lutheran now a Brentian afterward a Zuinglian and last of al a Caluinist Yea what grauitie is it to defende that al these sectes may be saued seing they teâ—â—â— contradictorie doctrine and wil come to no agreement Concerning our folies which you say they see they are folies to worldlynges and to men wise in their owne eyes as a man to shut vp him selfe in a Cloister to watch to fast to praye to liue chaste to bewaile his sinnes to geue awaye al his goods for Gods sake to honour Gods frendes with a due reuerence and worship to beleue Christ rather then our eyes and to trust the wit of our Predecessours rather then our owne These are in deede our folies in 〈…〉 we glorie through Gods grace leauing the pride oâ—â—oâ—… new traÌ„slations of the Scriptures your Sectes and wordly wisedom the breaking of vowes the liuing in incest and open filthinesse with impudent maintenance therof to your great learning grauitie holinesse and wisedom Iewel Pag. 131. NotvvithstaÌ„ding if there vvere not one neither of them nor of vs leaft aliue yet vvould not therfore the vvhole Church of EnglaÌ„d flee to Louain Harding Who euer said that the whole Church of England must flee or was fled to Louaine You kepe some parte of it fast inough from fleeing to Louaine or any whither els if the Tower the Fleete the Marshalsea the
Counters the Kinges Beanch and other prisons in London be hable to kepe men fast But if you speake of your owne Church surely you had Apostates and renegate priestes in it Aduersus LuciferiaÌ„ or you had no Church at al as out of S. Hierome I shewed before who saith no Priest no Church And verely no trew Church euer was there without an External and publike Sacrifice which it might offer to God to acknowlege that he is the beginning and ende of al grace and goodnes But where no external Priesthod is as you now beleue ther is none there is no external Sacrifice and coÌ„sequeÌ„tly no true Church And seing renegate priestes can not make a true Church nor their Sacrifice can be acceptable vnto God yea rather seing they are of the mind and belefe that it is not lawful to honour God with the external Sacrifice of Christes owne body and bloud leaft to vs for that intent it doth stil follow that although ye haue true Priestes which runne from vs yet haue ye neither true Sacrifice by them nor true Church Ievvel Pag. 131. Tâ—rtullian saith Nonne laici sacerdotes sumus scriptum est c. And vve being laye men are vve not priestes it is written In exhortatione ad CastitateÌ„ Christ hath made vs both a kingdome and priestes vnto God his father The authoritie of the Church and the honour by the assemblie or Councel of Order sanctified of God hath made a difference betwen the laye and the clergie whereas there is no assemblie of ecclesiastical Order the priest being there alone vvithout the companie of other priestes doth both minister the oblatioÌ„ and also baptize Yea and be there but three together and though they be laye men yet is there a Church For euery man liueth of his owne faith Harding Wonder not M. Iewel as you confesse that once you did at your misfortune and euil lucke in that by vs a thowsand faultes are sooner fownd in your bookes then you could wel without blushing if any shame were in you note two hundred in myne For who so euer writeth against the truth can not possibly bring one word which for maintenance of an vntruth may be altogether truly applied after the writers minde out of whome the same is alleged onlesse that writer were him selfe an Heretike or in that behalfe by better iudgement noted of some errour Therefore it is easier to find many thowsand Lyes in your bookes then any fewe in myne And as that hath ben shewed in many other examples heretofore so shal it now appeare most euidently in this which you bring out of Tertullian TertulliaÌ„ in exhort ad castitatem MoÌ„tanus and Tertullian coÌ„demned the secoÌ„d Mariages First the booke and worke that you allege is one of those which Tertullian wrote against the Churche after that he became an Heretike and was one of the disciples of Montanus For as Montanus did condemne the second Mariages so did his scholar Tertullian Who hauing corruptly interpreted many places of S. Paule commeth at the length to proue his heresie by conferring the olde Testament with the new Ecce in veteri lege c. Beholde saith he in the olde lawe I finde the licence of mariyng ofte to be inhibited It is enacted in the booke of Leuiticus Sacerdotes mei non plus nubent my Priestes shal not marrye any more But the fulnes of the law as in other pointes so in this was reserued to Christe alone VVhereupon it was more fully and more streightly prescribed that those ought bo be of one matrimonie who are chosen in the Priestly ordâ—r In so much that I my selfe remember certaine menne for hauing had two wiues to haue ben remoued from their place of Priesthod An obiection of TertulliaÌ„ against him selfe But thou wilt say Then is it lawful for other menne to marrie twise for so much as exception is made against them to wit against Priestes to whom it is not lauful to haue ben twise maried Hitherto Tertullian hath gon about by the example of the Priestes of the olde and new Testament to shew that Laye men also may not marrye but once For in the newe Testament S. Paule would haue them only chosen to Priesthod Tit. 1. The husband of one vvife who are or haue benne the husbandes of one wife that is to saye haue neither had two wiues at once nor haue married a widowe nor haue had two wiues one after an other For al this doth the Apostle meane and the auncient Fathers do so witnesse Now Tertullian saw euidently that there was a difference betwen Priestes and laye menne whereupon he made the former obiection to him selfe that the second mariages which only do staye a man from being Priest are absolutely lawful for him who wil be no Priest but wil remaine stil in the degree and state of laye men To the which obiection being to strong for Tertullian it behoued him so to answere as yet his heresie against the second mariages might be mainteined So that nowe M. Iewel bringeth forth his heretical answer made vnto a Catholikes argument Thus then Tertullian goeth forwarde Vani erimus si putauerimus quòd Sacerdotibus noÌ„ liceat laicis licere nonne laici Sacerdotes sumus We shal be deceiued or we shal be vaine men if we shal thinke that to be lawful for Laye menne whiche is not lawful for Priestes We that are Laye men are we not Priestes also And so he goeth forward with that which M. Iewel did allege for his purpose Double priesthod For wheras there is a double Priesthod one publike and external which is onely coÌ„mon to those that receiue power to consecrate Christes Body and Bloud at the Altare the other priuate and internal which is indifferently common to the Priestes and to laye men whereby they al receiue power in Baptisme to offer spiritual Sacrifices vnto God 1. Pet. 2. as S. Peter saith Tertullian would haue the argument to be good that as none are made publike and external Priestes whiche haue had two wiues so none who are internal priestes might haue two wiues But Tertullian is deceiued in his heretical argument as wel as M. Iewel is in alleging an heretical authoritie Whereupon S. Hierome saith Montanus TertulliaÌ„ enemie â—o sâ—coÌ„d mariages qui Nouati schisma sectaÌ„tur putant secunda matrimonia ab Ecclesiae communione prohibenda cùm Apostolus de Episcopis Praesbyteris hoc praecipiens vtique in caeteris relaxârit non quòd hortetur ad secunda matrimonia sed quòd necessitati carnis indulgeat Montanus and those who followe the schisme of Nouatus thinke that the second Mariages ought to be forbidden from the Communion of the Church whereas the Apostle geuing that commaundement vnto Bishoppes and priestes hath doubteles released it in other men Not that he exhorteth them to secoÌ„d mariages but bicuase he yeeldeth to the necessitie of the flesh So that S. Hierome reproueth
yet haue benne more plaine if you M. Iewel had not practized your olde false sleight in cutting of my wordes For when I had asked whether D. Capon Shaxton Campegius or Audley or any other bishops of Sarisburie taught your doctrine I answered thereunto it is most certaine they did not How be it I staied not there but went forward to remoue that your obiection of Capon and Shaxton whiche I forsawe you would make And thereunto I said thus How so euer those two first named Capon M. Ievvel left out al these wordes bicause thei ansvvered him fully and Shaxton onely in some parte of their life taught amisse how afterward they repented abhorred your heresies and died Catholikes it is wel knowen Now beside these whome els can you name Al these wordes of myne you leafte out M. Iewel as if I had neuer printed them You leafte them out not onely by not answering them but also you did not suffer them to be printed in your booke emong myne owne wordes leaste you should haue benne answered before you had replied as most times you are as it should appeare if it would please the Reader but to vew and peruse my woordes ouer againe and diligently to conferre them with yours Which I wish him to doo not only for trial of this point but also al others whereof so euer both we haue treated And he shal say you were answered before you made the Replie confuted before you made your pretensed Defence But what conscience haue you that liue at least mainteine the life of your estimation among them of your Secte by lying by dissembling by cutting of by adding vnto by mangling your Doctours briefly by deceiuing the reader one waie or other You were ashamed to haue no predecessour at al in the See of Sarisburie and to be like Nouatian or Donatus and such other the like Heretikes And therefore you name two Predecessours both which protested at their death that you and al your felowes are Heretikes and repented that euer they communicated with you so farre as they did Thus you come of your selfe as the Deuil doth and shal come in his chief member Antichrist And you come not holding by lineal Succession nor by lawful Sending as Christ came being sent of his father and being borne of the seede of Dauid and of Abraham But you are without Predecessours and I am sure if God for our great sinnes forsake not our Coūtrie you shal not long haue Successours Iewel For the rest of the bishops that vvere before them vvhat faith they held and vvhat they either liked or misliked by their vvritinges or sermons it doth not greatly appeare Harding What neede wordes when dedes speake It is euident they kepte that which they receiued of S. Augustine our Apostle and that which was before and afterward beleeued in al Christendome Thei said Masse they adoured Christes body in the blessed Sacrament who doubteth of it They asked their cōfirmation of the bishop of Rome and acknowledged him to be the Apostle S. Peters Successour Therefore they were not your Predecessours in faith and doctrine you may be assured M. Iewel Iewel I trust they held the foundatiō and liued and died in the faith of Christ Harding Now now M. Iewel you haue bewraid M. Ievvel be wraith him selfe what you teach in corners now that lurking heresie is cropen out whereof I spake in my Preface to you before my laste Reiondre touching the Sacrifice of the Masse There I shewed that the Catholike Church must be beleeued in al pointes of Religion and that they were Heretiques who persuaded them selues that it was inough to beleeue certaine Articles of the faith and to let the rest alone not regarding whether this or that be true But what cal you the Foundation of the true faith You knowe that al your Predecessours acknowleged the Popes Supremacie said Masse and beleeued the doctrine of the seuen Sacramentes and taught so Otherwise they had ben noted for Heretikes of others who liued together with them as you are of them who liue with you Seing then you know they did so what can you meane by the foundation but onely the beleefe of the Trinitie and of Christes birth death and Ascension As though it were inough to beleue those thinges what so euer become of the reste Math. 12. Math. 18. Luc. 10. But Christ saith he that is not with me is against me He that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as a heathē and a publicane He that heareth you heareth me he that despiseth you despiseth me and him that hath sent me And S. Paule saith 1. Tim. 3. Iacob 2. Agust epistol 29. ad Hieron The Church is the piller and sure stay of truth And S. Iames he that faileth in one is made giltie of all that is as S. Augustine expoundeth it he that faileth or sinneth against Charitie is giltie of al other faultes Nowe charitie is broken if vnitie be broken and vnitie is broken if the bishops beleeue not euery Article of the faith expressely which the Churche teacheth to be expresly beleeued Therefore either your predecessours were with you or against you There is no midle or meane With you they were not bicause they taught seuen Sacramentes and the Popes supremacie and the Sacrifice of the Masse c. Therefore they were against you And then ye are the first of that faith and doctrine whiche now ye teache You therefore came of your selfe and are without Predecessours Iewel 131. If they had liued in these dayes and seene that you see they vvould not haue ben partakers of yours vvilfulnesse Harding These are the wordes of an Antichrist who seeking to make him selfe equal with Christ doth vse such Phrases by his wicked members as Christe did vse concerning his owne person In deede Christ and only Christ might say such wordes bicause he only shewed such miraculous workes that were hable to haue turned Sidō and Tyrus Ioan. 2. 10. or any other hard harted people But what haue we seene in these dayes M. Iewel which would haue ben hable to haue made al your Predecessours to haue yelded vnto your new faith Haue ye spoken with al tonges as the Apostles did Nay ye haue cōfoūded and dispersed them as it was done at the building vp of the toure of Babylō For whereas in holy matters and specially in the Church Seruice we seemed to be deliuered from the curse of the Diuisiō of tongues bicause many nations of diuers lāguages were vnited and knit together in one Latine or Greeke Church Seruice you go about to set the worlde againe as farre a part by diuers vulgare tongues as euer it was before Christes cōming Haue ye built vs new Churches or schooles or hospitalles or colleges Nay ye haue pulled downe the olde and defaced them to the vttermost of your power Haue ye made peace in the earth and reconciled al dissensions Ye haue rather diuided the subiecte
and the authoritie of Pope Coelestinus resisteth the impietie of Nestorius And yet is Pope Coelestinus a Nestorian No truly but M. Iewel prooueth him selfe a most impudent Lyer and a wicked sclaunderer Iewel Pope Honorius vvas a Monothelite heretique Harding Of Pope Honorius Now at length M. Iewel you say that which hath some face of truth For Honorius in deede fel into the heresie of the Monothelites But he fel into it when as yet it was not euidently condemned by the Churche in any general Councel He fel into it but he defended it not and yet the crime of heresie is not properly incurred without a stubborne defence of falsehod Againe he did not only not make any heretical Decree touching the defence of that heresie by the authoritie of the See Apostolike but rather as a publike person he did resist that heresie Platina in Honorio For he induced Heraclius the Emperour to bannishe Pyrrhus the Patriarke of Constantinople and Cyrus the Patriarke of Alexandria who were giltie of the Monothelite heresie How then standeth it together that Honorius did bothe fauour and hate the selfe same heresie Some men considering what he did say that he was falsly accused of the heresie but others thinke rather that in his harte he fauoured the heresie yet bicause the Romaine Churche to witte the Bisshoppes of Ostia of Porto of Preneste of Velitro of Sabini and suche others that hauing their bishoprikes neare there about are moste commonly resident in Rome or are moste easily assembled thither to euery Consistorie with a great number of Priestes of Deacons and of other learned men who are the Councel Cypria in epist ad Clerum vib Rom. and Senate of the Pope bicause I say they are and euer haue benne euen from the beginning men of great experience as it may appeare in S. Cyprians workes and of constancie in the faith as who liued with diuerse Popes one after the other bicause then this reuerend companie were knowen to resiste as wel the Monothelite heresie as al other heresies it standeth wel together that Pope Honorius albeit in his owne person he fauoured that heresie Pope Honorius only burdened vvith the crime of heresie among the Popes yet durst not to publishe it in the cōmon assemblie but contrarywise did there as they gaue him Councel Whereby it came to passe that he both deposed Monothelites openly and yet fauoured their opinion priuily And this is the only Pope who may iustly be burdened with heresie But now consider good Reader the worke of God when he should come to confirme his brethrene that is to say to doo any open thing whereby the other Bisshoppes might be established in their faith then was he constrained to doo that whiche might edifie and not hinder the true faith that God might be iustified in his woordes Math. 16. who sayd to S. Peter vppon this rocke I wil builde my Churche and Hel gates shal not preuaile against it Luc. 22. and thou being once conuerted confirme thy brethrene feede my sheepe Ioan. 21. feede my lambes For when Honorius came to this pointe whether in publike Consistorie the Monothelite heresie whiche taught that there was but one wil in Christe should be allowed or no! then as Platina recordeth the Pope infourmed the Emperour as wel by letters as by messangers that Christe had two willes and that was done by the common assemblie and the letters went as the deede of the See and Churche of Rome whereas in the meane time Honorius was of an other minde within him selfe And they that are about great personages knowe right wel that they doo many times sende many messages and letters through the aduise of their Councel whiche the greate personages them selues would not haue to take place Thus we see a double person in him that gouerneth one which he hath in respecte of his owne priuate minde and iudgement the other which he hath or rather taketh as put vpon him by the publike office which he beareth Now concerning the matter of Succession the publike person is only to be regarded which in Pope Honorius was Catholike For that is the personage whiche may hurte or hinder the Church Of that publike personage Pope Agatho who followed not long after Honorius doubted not to write as it is recited in the sixth general Councel Act. 4. Concil 6. General Act. 4. concerning this very heresie of the Monothelites Apostolicae memoriae meae paruitatis praedecessores dominicis doctrinis instructi ex quo nouitatem haereticam in Christi immaculatam Ecclesiam Constantinopolitanae Ecclesia praesules introducere conabantur nunquam neglexerunt eos hortari atque obsecrando commonere vt a praui dogmatis haeretico errore saltem tacendo desisterent ne ex hoc exordium dissidij in vnitate Ecclesiae facerent vnam voluntatem vnámque operationem duarum naturarum asserentes in vno Domino nostro Iesu Christo The predecessours that were before me seelie man that I am men of Apostolike memorie and instructed in the Doctrine of our Lorde since that the Bishops of Constantinople endeuoured to bring an heretical noueltie into the vnspotted Church of Christe neuer ceased to exhorte them and with earnest meane to admonish them that they would at the least wise by forebearing talke surcease from the heretical errour of their wicked opinion least affirming that there was in our Lord Iesus Christe but one wil and one operation of two natures hereby they should cause strife to beginne in the vnitie of the Church Thus the predecessours of Agatho emong whom Honorius was one did as he reporteth alwaies openly defende the Catholique faith against the Monothelites It is to men knowen perhaps sometimes that the Pope or prince leadeth an euil life as for example in fornication or in Aduouterie Yet so long as their lawes forbid them bothe the menne are of euil example but the lawes are good and holesom and the common Weale is wel prouided for But if once Aduouterie or Fornication should be made lawful by Lawe as some menne say that vserie somewhere is then is the common Weale domaged No heresie euer decreed openly by any of the Popes But sithens the time that S. Peter sate first at Rome God hath wrought this miraculous yea thrise miraculous worke that there was neuer yet any open Assemblie or Synode kepte wherein any Heresie by any one of so many as haue ben S. Peters Successours was euer decreed The publique sentence and iudgement of the See Apostolike in matters of faith was neuer to this daie defiled or defaced with false doctrine That is the Succession which we holde of and whereof S. Augustine said so long time past August in Psalmo contra partem Donati Numerate c. Recken vp by tale the priestes euen from the very seate of Peter and in that rew of Fathers see who succeded other that is the Rocke which the proude gates of Hel doo not ouercome Iewel
Pope Ihon 22. vvas reproued by Gerson and by the schoole of Paris for an Heretike Harding Of Pope Iohn 22. his errour see my Ansvvere to M. Iewels Vievv of his vntruthes before fol. 64. He was reproued for an opinion M. Iewel which he helde before he was Pope many yeres what the opinion was I haue declared before at large to whiche place I referre the reader for a ful answer But when being Pope he would haue confirmed that his wrong opinion that the soules of the iuste lacked the sight of God face to face vntil the daye of Iudgement God tooke him out of this life that al the world might know come who shal to sit in Peters chaier he shal neuer decree any Heresie to be mainteined as the Faith How be it it was not to be accoumpted heresie at that time as yet not being determined by the Church and semed to haue ben holden of certaine olde doctours of the Church as is before said The miracle of God in staying that man from confirming that errour by authentike decree in open Synode ought more to moue you if you were a man whom Gods workes could moue then his priuate erroneous opinion which hurteth no man but him selfe Iewel 132. Petrarcha saith Rome is a sanctuarie of al heresies Harding I neither beleue you nor him I am sure that men of greater authoritie then euer that ryming Poet was of hath said the contrarie But it may be right wel that your sclaunderous penne belieth Petrarcha Ambrosius in Epist ad papam Siricium Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist 3. In Math. cap. 16. Once you name not where he saith it But what so euer Petracha saie S. Ambrose whom we more regarde said that the Church of Rome kepeth alwaies the Apostolike beleefe whole and vndiminished And S. Cyprian saith that infidelitie can not haue accesse vnto the Romaines Iewel Lyra saith that many Popes haue fallen into heresies Harding He saith many as wel princes as chiefe priestes haue falleÌ„ from the faith but not that many haue decreed heresies as to be followed and embraced of others But how truly he saith that many haue fallen from the faith let him answer to it For I find not those many nor yet M. Iew. him selfe as diligeÌ„t as he is about it Wherin Lyra maie helpe vs for opening the text of holy Scriptures we gladly vse him as for his auctoritie specially touching antiquitie being so late a writer you know how litle weight his worde beareth in the iudgement of the learned And how is it come to passe that Nicolaus de Lyra is now so good an author with you M. Iewel who being a professed Frier in his life time followed the faith of the Romaine Church and beleued the Bishoppe of Rome to be the chiefe Bishop of Christendom and the Romaine Churche to be the head of al Churches Iewel 132. You knovv that Pope Hildebrand as he vvas charged by the Councel of Brixta vvas an aduouterer a Chuâ—che robber a periuâ—ed man a mankiller a Sorcerer and a renegate of the faith Harding I know that you lye I may saie it sauing my charitie rather then your worship For Pope Gregorie the seueÌ„th otherwise before he was Pope called Hildebrandus was a very holy man as Marianus Scotus doth witnesse who liued in the same time Marianus Srotus in Chronicis Pope HildebraÌ„dus persecuted and accused by HeÌ„rie the Emperour Marianus Scotus of Pohe Hildebrand and knew that Henrie the Emperour being enemie to Pope Hildebrand bicause the good Pope warned him of his faultes did procure a false conuenticle at Brixia and caused false accusations there to be laid in against him as he did the like also in Rome it selfe whence the Pope was constrained to flee Videns autem saith Marianus Scotus Henricus papam aufugisse congregatis 30. Episcopis fautoribuss suis in ipsa Romanae vrbis obsidione iussit haberisynoduÌ„ in qua Gregorius papafalsis inauditis criminationibus à fautoribus Henrici fictè compositis absens accusatur Denique dicebant cum prophanum scelestum amatorem discordiae virum sanguinuÌ„ sedem Apostolicam vsurpare per necromantiam Conspirantes ergo qui coÌ„uenerunt in vnum aduersus DominuÌ„ aduersus Vicarium eius Papam Gregorium daÌ„nauerunt eum But Henrie seing that the Pope was fled assembling together 30. Bishops who fauoured his part commaunded a synode to be kept euen as he was at the fiege of the citie of Rome in which Synode Gregorie the Pope being absent is accused of false crimes and such as were neuer heard of the which Henries fautours had purposely forged To be shorte they said he was a prophane man a wicked man a louer of discorde a bloudy man and that he had vsurped the See Apostolike by Necromancie They therefore who had thus assembled them selues together conspiring against our Lorde and against his Vicare Pope Gregorie condemned him If you were but a ciuil honest man M. Iewel you would not take that for a Truth which one enemie saith of an other Hildebrand acquitted by true and indiffereÌ„t historiographers It maie please you to read those Historiographers which wrote without partialitie as Marianus Scotus Platina Lambertus SchafnaburgeÌ„sis and Nauclerus with such like By perusing them you shal finde yourselfe a Lyer and Pope Hildebrand a vertuouse man and one that was zelously bent to correcte such faultes as were in the clergie at that time specially Simonie But though he had ben otherwise it hindereth not oure cause as long as he kepte the same Faith whiche he receiued of his forefathers Iewel Pag. 132. Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorne Pontificulos Platina in Romano 2 litle petite Popes sometimes monstra portenta monsters and vnnatural and ilshapen creatures Harding If Platina speake so of some Popes it is the more signe that he either hated the Popes or els that he spake as he thought and that he wrote not for flatterie as sometimes you saye of him I praye you what cause had Platina to flatter with them as with Hildebrand who were so long dead before he was borne And as for those with whom he liued he flattered them neuer a whit as maye appeare by the life of Pope Paulus the second Platina caÌ„not seme to haue flattered the Popes in vvritiÌ„g their liues Wel were then some Popes monsters Verely I thinke so with Platina concerning some few of their liues But euen those that were worste made no breache in the rule of the faith God so prouided alwaies that although Hel gates to wit al vices and al the power of the Deuil were bent against the Popes and the Churche of Rome yet al should not preuaile against the Rocke and true Confession of the Faith which euer hath ben and shal be in the Succession of Peters Chaire Whereupon S. Hierome doubted not to saye Hieron epist ad DamasuÌ„ Cathedrae Petri Communione consocior super illam petram aedificatam Ecclesiamscio I
am ioyned in communion to the Chaire of Peter vpon that Rocke I knowe the Churche is builte Iewel Pope Adrian the fourth vvas vvoont to saye vve succede not Peter in feeding but Romulus in killing Harding Were it true you would haue named your authour Now your saying semeth to procede out of your owne Forge But what if it were true that Pope Adrian said so by waye of complaint This proueth that as some of his predecessours were euil men so alwaies God gaue his grace to some other Popes to disallowe their faultes and yet to continewe their Faith Doctrine and Succession Iewel Pag. 132. And to leane Dame Ioan the vvoman Pope vvith many others mee of like vertue and holinesse as hauing no pleasure in this rehersal Harding There was no such woman Pope and yet God knoweth you take stil great pleasure in the rehersal of a vaine dreame as you doo of many other false tales dreamed first by Martinus Polonus Iewel For as much as M. Harding began this matter vvith Sarisburie to ende it vvith the same Ioannes Sarisburiensis saith In Polya cratico in Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae Pharisaei In the Church of Rome by Succession sitte the Scribes and Pharisees Harding The matter that I began here to treate of was not of Sarisburie but of your SuccessioÌ„ in Sarisburie for which notwithstanding the huge stuffe you bring you shewe your selfe to haue nothing to saie Touching Ioannes Sarisburiensis if it were so that Scribes and Pharisees sate in the Churche of Rome yet you should be damned for departing from them 3. Reg. 12. euen as Ieroboam was for departing from the Chaire of Moyses You are bound to communicate in Doctrine with the chiefe Chaier what soeuer they be that sit in it For Christe bad vs kepe that Matt. 23. which they commaunde Now as the Scribes and Pharisees sitting in the Chaire of Moyses did exactly kepe his Succession and witnessed the continuance of that Temple whereunto al the Iewes were bound So the Popes of Rome sitting in S. Peters Chaire do exactly mainteine his Succession and witnesse that to be the true Rocke and Churche whereunto al we are bound to be obedient as sheepe to the chiefe Pastour But sith you are desirous to end this matter begonne as you saye of Sarisburie with Sarisburie whereby you meane the auctoritie of Ioannes Saresburiensis therewith I am right wel contente For your parte that is to say against the Churche of Rome whose faith we professe whatsoeuer be the manners of some great persons in that Churche you allege Iohn of Sarisburie saying that Scribes and Pharisees sitte in the Churche of Rome True it is these wordes be in Iohn of Sarisburie in deede As for the Addition by Succession it is your owne it is not his But you must vnderstand they be not his owne wordes as spoken by him selfe but reported by him as wordes of the common people For being required of Pope Adrian the fourth who was an Englishman in familiar talke whereto for his learning and wisdome he was admitted to declare freely what was commoÌ„ly said abroade of the Pope and of the Churche of Rome among other thinges bruted abroade by waye of complaint specially against the Briberie and coueteousnes of great personages of that Churche he rehersed those wordes out of the Gospel Matt. 23. At the ende of his tale thus he concluded Iohannes Sarisburiensis in Polycratico de curialium nugis lib. 6. cap. â—4 signifiing whose tale he tolde Haec inquam Pater loquitur populus quandoquidem vis vt illius tibi sententias proferam These thinges Father the people speaketh for asmuch as you wil haue me to vtter vnto you what they saie Thus M. Iewel by testimonie of your Ihon of Sarisburie you proue nothing against our Doctrine of Succession but onely put vs in mynd what the common people in those dayes said of the gouernours of the Church If you would with as good sinceritie haue alleged on the other side what good he in the same booke and Chapter reporteth of them as with malice you reherse the euil you should haue laid forth a very good tale for them For immediatly after the wordes before rehersed thus it foloweth there Et tu inquit quid sentis And what is your opinion quod the Pope Thereto answereth Iohn of Sarisburie Angustiae inquam sunt vndique Vereor enim ne mendacij vel adulationis cortraham notam si solus populo contradixero Sin autem reatum vereor Maiestatis ne tanquam qui os in coelum posuerim crucem videar meruisse I am driuen quod he to straightes on euery side For I feare me I shal be noted for a Lyer or a flatterer if I alone be in my tale contrarie to the people Elles if I should saie as they saie I feare the gilte of treason least I seme to haue deserued the pounishment of death being as it were one that haue set my mouth vp against heauen This Preface semeth to conteine the wordes of one that intendeth to vtter the truth plainly and discretely And although there in deede he touche the Popes and the Romaine Clergies faultes freely yet on the other side he confesseth him selfe moued in coÌ„science to speake muche also in the praise of many These be his wordes Vnum tamen audacter conscientia teste profiteor Ibidem quia nusquà m honestiores Clericos vidi quà m in Ecclesia Romana aut qui magis auaritiam detestentur Albeit some be faulty yet one thing my conscience bearing me witnesse I dare be bolde to saie that no where I haue sene Clerkes of more honestie then in the Churche of Rome or that doo more deteste coueteousnes Of such good and vertuous Clerkes there he reckeneth vp some by name At length speaking of the number of the good in general he saith Plurium tanta modestia tanta grauitas est vt Fabriciâ— non inueniantur inferiores quem agnita salutis via modis omnibus antecedunt The modestie and grauitie of the more parte of them is so great that they are founde nothing inferior to Fabricius the noble Romaine of famous memorie for his vertue whom in respecte of that they acknowlege the waie of Saluation which he knew not being an Infidel by al meanes they passe and excelle Then folow these wordes immediatly which are most to our purpose and most worthy of consideration Quia verò instas vrges praecipis cùm certum sit quòd Spiritui sancto mentiri non licet fateor quia quod praecipis faciendum est si non sitis omnes operibus imitandi Nam qui a doctrina vestra dissentit aut haereticus aut schismaticus est For asmuche as you are instant vpon me and wil haue no nay and commaunde me to saie what I thinke sith it is certaine that I maie not lye vnto the holy Ghoste I graunte that what you commaunde vs to doo we must doo although ye be not
al to be folowed in your deedes For he that dissenteth from you Doctrine is either an Heretique or a Schismatique These wordes being wel and duely considered of I reporte me to thine indifferent iudgement discrete Reader what M. Iewel can seme to any wise man to haue wonne by Iohannes Sarisburiensis He accuseth the vices of the Romaine Clergie and of some Popes them selues We also accuse the same Their euil deedes be not to be folowed saith he We saie the same and praie God to amende them Scribes and Pharisees sate in the Church of Rome said the people in his time Were it true yet were they to be obeied touching doctrine and to be beleeued bicause they sate in the Chaire of Peter as Christ cōmaunded the Scribes and Pharisees of the Iewes to be obeied and thinges to be done and kepte whiche they said bicause they succeeded Moyses and sate in Moyses Chaire Howbeit what the people of Rome of Italie and of Germanie said of the Pope at that time it ought the lesse to be regarded bicause they spake vpon grudge conceiued against him the Romaines Platina in vita Hadriani ◠for that as Platina witnesseth he denied them their ernest request which was that they might liue freely vnder the gouernement of the Consulles and be exempted from their subiection to the Church the Italians and Germains for that they were muche vexed with warres by William the King of Sicilia and Frederike the firste Emperour from whiche vexation and troubles they saw they should haue benne deliuered if the Pope woulde haue benne content to suffer the Landes of the Churche to be inuaded and taken awaie by those Princes Euen so in these daies the Popes be the worse spoken of and finde the lesse good wil at many mennes handes in some partes of Christendome bicause they can not be induced to allow and confirme the possession of certaine ecclesiastical Landes which haue ben taken frō the Church by vnlawful meanes in such wise as they them selues would haue it allowed and confirmed To be short agree with vs M. Iewel vnto the doctrine which the Church of Rome teacheth where the Succession is certaine wherunto your owne doctor Ioannes Sarisburiensis leadeth you and we wil agree with you in reprouing the vices and faultes of that See the proufe of which for a great part of them for ought ye can shewe is vncertaine Would God ye would once consider how sclender and weake the Argumentes ye make against the catholique Faith are which alwaies ye deduce à moribus ad doctrinam that is from reproufe of manners to the reproufe of doctrine Iewel Pag. 132. This is M. Hardings holy succession though faith faile yet Succession must holde Harding Nay syr Succession doth holde that faith maye not faile For you haue not proued by any one example that faith did euer faile in the Churche of Rome In the Church I saye which consisteth of the Pope and of a college and an assemblie of graue Bishops and priestes professing them selues the faith and teaching it others In that open assemblie neuer was there false religiō decred or taught whereas so many heresies haue ben not fewer then a hundred and so many Archeheretikes of whom some haue ben in the other Patriarchal Sees but in Rome neuer was there an Archeheretike or any Pope who in Councel or Consistorie decreed or confirmed any heresie to be admitted To him that knoweth the ecclesiastical histories and conferreth the See of Rome with al other Churches it is such a miracle as therby God hath witnessed that Succession to be the Rocke of the faith In so much that the Bishops of the prouince of Tarracon in Spaine wrote thus vnto Pope Hilarius In Tom. 1. Concil epist 2. Ad fidem recurrimus Apostolico orè laudatam inde responsa quaerentes vnde nihil errore nihil praesumptione sed pontificali totum deliberatione praecipitur We resort vnto the faith praysed by the mouth of the Apostle seeking answers from thence whence nothing is commaunded by errour nothing by presumption but al by bishoply deliberation Iewel For vnto the succession God hath bound the holy Ghost Harding No but vnto the holy Ghost The holy Ghost causeth the Successiō to abide faithful God hath bound the Succession For he causeth the Succession to abide faithful bicause he causeth it to follow the inspiration of the holy Ghost that it may so be knowen for euer certainly true in the chiefe Apostles Chaire and in the fellowship abiding with him Christ saith he that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me I am with you al dayes vntil the worldes ende Math. 28. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Luc. 22. and thou being once conuerted confirme thy brethern feede my sheepe Ioan. 21. feede my lambes I wil beseeche my father Ioan. 14. and he shal geue you an other conforter that he remaine with you for euer 16. the spirite of truth he shal teach you al thinges and al truth The Romaine faith is preached in the whole worlde Roma 1. Iewel For lacke of this Succession for that in our Sees in the Churches of England vve find not so many Idolatours Necromancers Heretikes Aduouterers Churcherobbers Periured persones Mankillers Renegates Monsters Scribes and Pharisees as vve may easily finde in the Church of Rome therefore I trovve M. Harding saith vve haue no Succession vve are no Bishops vve haue no Church at al. Harding Your Church of England hath yet scant continued so many weekes as the Churche of Rome hath continued yeres But if it had passed ouer such times of persecution as Rome hath if it had ben so assaulted by al sortes of enemies as wel within as without as wel with prosperitie as aduersitie I trow your Church would haue had before this as many Idolatours Necromancers Heretiques Aduouterers and such others by you named as the Church of Rome hath had Bishops And certainely already it hath had mo sortes of Heretikes and that within these xx yeres then Rome hath had euen by your owne accompte euil men within these fiften hundred yeres Idolatrie annexed vnto Heresie For your beginning progresse and the whole profession of your life is nothing but heresie whereunto Idolatrie is euermore annexed For an heretike doth alwaies worship his owne conceit and phantasie for truth and whereas God is truth he worshippeth his phantasie for God which is Idolatrie If the pope committed any faulte by frailtie he defended it not as you mainteine in open pulpites the breache of laudable and godly vowes and the marriages of consecrated persons who haue absteined from marriage euer since the Apostles tyme whose marriages saith S. Hierome be not so much Aduouteries Aduersus Iouin li. 1. as Inceste But in the number of mo then two hundred Popes within fiften hundred yeres you haue falsely numbred sixe or seuen as Heretikes whereas you can not denie but there haue ben in the same
Succession aboue thirtie martyrs who died for Christes sake and as many confessours or moe whom al the good men in the Church haue accompted for holy and blessed men There was neuer general Coūcel holden by catholique Bishops which did not cōmunicate with that See and reioysed to be honoured and cōfirmed by it From S. Peters time to our age you cannot name any one daie or howre marcke wel M. Iewel you can not name one daie or howre I say in which any knowen Catholike Bishop in al the world did or might euer say with the approbation of good men I defie or I despise or I do not communicate with the Church of Rome how soeuer some one Pope might seeme not cōmendable yet the Church the faith the Doctrine the Succession was euer commended of al Catholike men To that See appealed and resorted as to the chiefe Light of the Church a Li. 3. c. 3. Irenaeus b De Praes Tertullian c Lib. 2. Optatus d Ad Siriciū ep 81 S. Ambrose e Ad. Damasum S. Hierome f Epi. 165. S. Augustine g De vocat gent. li. 2. c. 16. Prosper with al the fathers besides That See promoted the Gospel into the endes of the world into England Scotlād Ireland Denmarcke the low Countrie Germanie Polonia Lituania Prussia Liuonia Hungaria Bohemia Bulgaria and presently into the new founde Landes That See conquered al heresies cōfounded them and al their authours and mainteiners from Simon Magus to Martine Luther and Ihon Caluin who now beginneth to be brought very lowe and by Gods wil shal be brought lower shortely the follie and rebellious sprite which his Doctrine breedeth in his adherentes breaking out and shewing it selfe daily to the world more and more See M. Iewel you and your fellowes are as sore a fraid as euer was the gilty theefe of his iudge or the naughty boye of his maister But do I say trow you that ye therfore haue no Succession or that yee are no Bishops and haue no Church bicause in your Churches of England there are not to be founde so many Idolatours so many Necromācers so many Heretiques Aduouteres Churcherobbers Periured persons Mankillers Renegates Monsters Scribes and Pharisees as many easily be founde in the Church of Rome Nay I trow M. Iewel you take your marke amisse For if I thought so as it pleaseth you to thinke of me I would not haue denied you neither Succession such as it is nor Bishops nor Churches or rather Congregations nor Ministers nor Minstrels neither for the better furnishing of them withal if these so many worthy qualities could worke so great an effecte For that I speake not here of Heretikes The clergie of these nevv cōgregatiōs vvherby Successiō is claimed and so cōsequently of Idolatours which faulte is common to you al what aduouterers whoremasters Incestuous persons Churche robbers Church breakers Periured persons Mankillers Renegates Abiured men Friers Apostates Lecherous Munkes Tapsters Hostlers Pedlers Tinckers Coblers Summoners Viceplayers Deuil Players Fellons Horse stealers Newgate menne briefly what vile and rascal rable want ye to fournish vp your Succession your bishoprikes your Synagogues and Ministring roumes withal Verely if this geare could make a Succession it shal soone be made good that ye haue also a Succession such as it is And ye neede not to mistrust any whit at al hauing so many of euery sorte as shal be more then inough for you Marie put these away out of your congregations I would cal them Churches were not that name to good for you I feare me you would leaue but a poore seely clergie behinde See hovv M. Ievvel vvil proue his so many Idolatours c. In the Church of Rome But how easy is it trow you M. Iewel to find so many Idolatours in the Churche of Rome as you beare vs in hande there may be founde Doth one poore facte of S. Marcellinus alone for the whiche he repented foorthwith and dyed a glorious Martyr of God make vp with you so many Idolatours I am wel assured that if you could haue found but one Pope more that had done the like you would not haue spared him your modestie is such but he should haue ben scored vp also to make vp your number of so many Idolatours Be it that Syluester was a Necromancer So many Necromācers and Hildebrand too who was of that crime as of many other vntruly sclaundered by his enemies that could not abide to heare of any correction for their enormous faultes and therefore spited that good Pope as you doo al the Popes wil yet those two make such a number of Necromancers in that See that it were a very easy matter to finde so many as you would gladly make your Readers beleeue there were Be it that Liberius Leo Coelestinus Honorius So many heretikes and Ihon the 22. holding priuate opinions without open maintenance of them had ben Heretikes as you most sclaunderously reporte them out of baudye Bale and braine-sicke Illyricus yet these fiue make not so great a number pardy that it should be an easy thing for you to finde so many Heretikes in the See of Rome as ful rhetorically you set the matter forth Now with what face pretende you vnto the worlde that it is an easy matter to finde so many Heretiques emong the Bishops of Rome whereas with long prying and pooring in al your brethrens bookes you could finde but fiue to whom you durst to impute that crime of whiche yet three are vniustly sclaundered and the other two only misliked for their priuate assertions and neuer denounced Heretikes for stubborne maintenance or making any open Decree touching that whereof once they erroneously iudged But yet you wil saie that among the Bishops of Rome there were many Aduouterers So many aduouterers c many Church Robbers many Periured persons many Mankillers many Renegates It is happy M. Iewel that your worde is no sclaunder But I pray you good sir how many can you truly name of al these For of so great a number as you speak of it is wel likely you can name some and your malice is such against the Popes that you wil spare none howe smal a surmise soeuer you haue inducing you to thinke so euil of any Pope Go to then M. Iewel of your so many name vs some one infamous in eche of these great crimes which indifferently you laye to the charge of the Bishops of Rome leauing an euil suspicion in your Readers head that for the most parte al the Bishoppes of Rome were giltie of the one or the other How many Aduoutrers then can you name to vs Pope Hildebrand saye you was an Aduouterer that is a starke sclaunderous lie But were it true how many mo can you name let vs heare them Is there no mo but Pope Hildebrand Is one now become many with you and many but one So many Churche robbers Perchaunce yet of your Churche
Robbers you haue greater stoare And who were they I praye you emong the Popes that committed that heynous facte Hildebrand you tel vs againe was a Church Robber Doubtelesse this poore Pope hath offended you very muche whiche argueth he was a good Pope And were there no mo Churche Robbers amonge the Popes but Hildebrand Cough vp M. Iewel voide the malicious humour of your stomake Of so many Churche robbers as are in that rewe of Bishops name vs but one more For vpon so great a vaunt your Reader may happely thinke that you could name some other besides Hildebrand But suppose that this Hildebrand had ben no Churche Robber as in deede he was none and you could not iustly haue charged him therwith had you not put your felicitie in sclaūdering good and vertuous men where then might a man so easly haue found I say not so many Churchrobbers as you tel vs of but only one emōg al the Bishops of Rome Wel yet of Periured persons we shal find great numbers that you might not be found a sclaunderer in that point So many Periured persons how wel soeuer you haue acquited your selfe of the former Go to then tel vs how many Periured persons occupied that roume and who they were You tel vs once againe that Hildebrand was a Periured person Verely you are much beholden to Hildebrād but specially to that wicked cōuenticle of naughtie Bishops assembled by the Emperour at Brixia who most vniustly sclaūderd that godly Pope For had they not ben you had lost a faire rhetorical lie I should haue said a foule cōclusion But yet perhaps there were emong the Popes many Mankillers and many Renegates So many mākillers and Renegates whom if you can name to your Reader you may peraduenture seeme to him at the lest in this a true reporter and not a malicious sclaūderer Who then were these so many Mankillers so many Renegates Of likelyhod you know many such or els you would not so stoutly auouch it Tel on Perge mentiri name vs them Yet once againe you tel vs that Hildebrand was a Mankiller Hildebrand was a Renegate But what was there none but Hildebrand M. Iewel Among two hundred Popes and vpward can you finde none that was an Aduouterer a Churchrobber a Periured person a Mankiller a Renegate but only Pope Hildebrand And yet you tel vs that of men of these qualities there haue ben such a number in that rewe of Bishoppes that of euery sorte it were or elles you lye sauing other mennes honestie an easy matter to finde many Are they now so suddainly vanished out of sight that to saue your poore honestie you can bring vs forth none but onely Hildebrand And howe can Pope Hildebrand whom most vniustly and vpon the manifest sclaunder of his enemies you haue here accused make vp the number of your so many Aduouterers so many Church robbers so many Periured persons so many Mankillers so many Renegates Are you not ashamed thus notoriously and withal most sclaunderously to belye that blessed Succession of Bishops which hath through the miraculous working of God continewed without interruption from S. Peters time vntil these our dayes Leaue leaue M. Iewel these vaine Rhetorical lying and sclaunderous conclusions Goe simply and plainely to the matter tel no more then you are wel hable to proue Learne rather to speake wel of your forefathers then with such impudencie to diffame and speake il of them who are departed this world in the vnitie of the Churche and peace of Christe And whereas you charge me with saying that ye haue no Succession no Bishoppes no Churche bicause ye haue no Idolatours Necromancers Heretikes and such like and then would seeme to salue the matter againe with an I trow I trow it be no good manner and lesse honestie to saie that of your aduersarie which by no colour possibly you can pike out of his wordes How be it I forgeue it you for that euery man may easily perceiue it to be but a pretie sleight of your arte whiche as I trow most menne cal the arte of lying Iewel But S. Paule saith Rom. 10. faith commeth not by succession but by hearing and hearing commeth not of legacie or enheritance from Bisshop to Bishop but of the vvorde of God Harding If faith come of hearing and hearing come of Gods worde I aske you whether the hearing shal endure for euer or no I saie it shal bicause it is written Math. 28. Luc. 1. I am with you al daies to the worldes end and al generations shal cal me blessed and Christ the sonne of Dauid shal reigne in the house of Iacob for euer This can not be but where that hearing is Now if hearing endure for euer seing hearing was at the first by the preaching of Bishops I saie that the Succession of Bishops endureth for euer Ephes 4. For God hath geuen pastours and doctours vnto his Church saith S. Paule vntil we shal al meete in vnitie of faith which shal be at the seconde comming of Christe Therefore it is not only not true that the hearing of the faith preached doth any thing withstand the perpetual Succession of Bishops but rather the Succession is proued thereby For as Christe instituted first the preaching of the faith by the Apostles who were also Bishops and as after the Apostles they were Bishoppes who chiefely continued the preaching of the same faith euen so vnto the worldes ende there must lacke no Bishoppes by whom the same maie stil be preached For Isaie saith Isai 62. Vpon thy walles ô Ierusalem I haue sette watchemen no daye nor night shal they holde their peace Suche watchemen haue ben alwaies in the Churche of Rome suche M. Iewel can not recken to haue ben alwaies in his Churche Therefore the preaching of the faith hath ben in the Romaine Church and not in his Iewel They are not alvvaies godly that succede the godly Harding Much lesse are they godly who forsake the godly But our question is not of godlinesse but of true faith which may be where godlinesse is not For they that preached the true faith for enuie against S. Paule Philip. cap. 1. had the true faith yet were they not godly Iewel Manasses succeded Ezechias Harding And therefore Christe was as wel borne of Manasses line as of Ezechias For albeit the godlinesse were not like in the men yet Christe wrought then the mysterie of his Birth and now he worketh the preseruation of his faith as wel by the euil as by the good Iewel Hieroboam succeded Dauid Harding 3. Reg. 12. There you were deceiued M. Iewel Roboam succeded Dauid Hieroboam diuided the kingdome and the inheritance of the Succession of Dauid But God saith often times that he kepte some of Dauids line in his throne 3. Reg. 11. et 15. et 4. Reg. 8. that a candel might remaine to his seruant Dauid for euer God surely accompted the line of Hieroboam no succession
of Dauids but rather the vndoing of it as much as laye in Hieroboam For Hieroboam was of an other tribe then Dauid was Iewel By Succession the Turke this daye possesseth and holdeth the foure Patriarchal Sees of the Church of Constantinople Alexandria Antioche and Ierusalem Harding No M. Iewel it is by violence by force The Turk commeth not as a Successour but as an inuader by power of armes by tyrannie and not by Succession as you hold the Churche of Sarisburie by force of the Princes sworde and by none other right Succession is when a man commeth in the same place whiche his predecessour had by the same order and lawe by which his lawful predecessour came to it The sonne succedeth his Father in his landes but the theefe and robber or he that by force inuadeth and keepeth them is no Successour The olde Patriarkes of whom you speake came to their place by Election and Confirmation the Turke by neither of both but only by tyrannie and violence Your Predecessours I meane the true Bishops came to the Churche of Sarisburie orderly by professing them selues to communicate and by taking Confirmatiō of the Bishop of Rome So came not you in therefore you came in by the windowe and not by the doore But now how blinde are you The Turk by Gods special prouidēce kepte frō Rome as not hable to consider why God permitteth the Turke to possesse Constantinople Antioche Alexandria and Ierusalem whereas he keepeth him yet from possessing Rome When the Turke had gotten Constantinople and had so farre entred into Croatia and Hungarie as it is wel knowen Rome was both nearer to him then Alexandria and easier to come by as it might wel haue appeared For the Soldan Lord of Aegypt and Syria and the Sophy ioyned with him were thought farre stronger to resiste him then the power of Italie But the truth is it was the scourge of God to reuenge al Rebelles that would not obey the Church of Rome where the chiefe pastour was placed by Christe whose voice al the shepe ought to heare In Epist Nicolas 1 ad Michaelem Imper. Bessarion in Epist ad Graecos But when the Grecians of pride and disdaine beganne to make a schisme and to diuide them selues from the See of Rome and being ofte warned and terribly threatned yet would not reconcile them selues but though at certaine meetinges they were confounded as at Lions and Florence yet would stil returne to their wilfulnesse and disobey the chiefe Bishop God at the length who made them that would not obey Samuel his Prophete to obey Saule and to feele his heauy hande suffered them vtterly to be ouerthrowen and vanquished and to lye vnder the yoke of most miserable bondage and slauerie which the cruel Turke laieth vpon them The particular declaration of which storie would require a longe Treatie But sure it is that for the withdrawing of their obedience from the Succession of Peter the Grecians are compelled to obey the Succession of Mahomet Iewel Math. 24 By Succession Christe saith desolation shal sitte in the holy place and Antichriste shal presse into the roume of Christe Harding M. Ievvel falsifieth the Scripture Doth Christe saie it shal be so by Succession You falsifie the wordes of God and man and that verely by Succession For so haue al Heretiques your forefather◠done before you And I pray you beholde how wel your wordes hange together Desolation shal fitte in the holy place by Succession and yet Antichriste shal presse in That which is by Successiō is without pressing and that which commeth in by pressing commeth not in by Succession Nay contrarywise Succession is the chiefe way for any Christian man to auoide Antichrist For he that remaineth in that faith whiche came lineally and by Bishop after Bishop from the Apostles he is sure of his enheritance and needeth not to feare lest he obey Antichrist For Antichrist as S. Paule saith cōmeth not 2. Thess 2. except defection and Apostasie goe before He that forsaketh succession may right wel fal vpon Antichriste But he that keepeth him selfe in the chiefe Succession shal be sure not to fal from faith And good reason why For Antichrist commeth in to breake order yea rather the Deuil breaketh the order of Christes Church to prepare a waie for Antichrist For if al menne keepe them selues in one faith and Doctrine when soeuer Antichrist should preache against that he should be detected and knowen vnto al menne But now when there are so many beleefes in the world why may not Antichriste gete a companie to follow him as wel as other Archeheretiques doo He therefore that once changeth his faith except he returne from whence he went can not tel in what Church he is and whether it be Antichristes Churche or no. But he that keepeth that whiche was from the beginning he is sure to holde that faith against which Antichriste must striue and fighte Wherfore S. Iohn speaking of Antichrist saith thus Vos quod audistis ab initio in vobis permaneat 1. Iohan. 2 Let that abide in you which ye haue hearde from the beginning Not that which ye began to heare of late but that whiche yee heard from the beginning let that abide in you let it abide and not be changed Hac scripsi vobis de ijs qui seducunt vos VVho are leaders out of the vvaie I haue written these thinges to you concerning them who leade you out of the waye Marke the wordes who leade you out of the waye which from the beginning you were set in Did not Luther leade vs from the waye wherein we were Did not Caluine lead both vs and some Lutherans too out of the former way There S. Iohn also saith of heretikes Exierunt ex nobis they are gonne out of vs. Nunc Antichristi multi facti sunt Nowe many Antichristes are made It is the going out that maketh an Antichrist and not the abiding within the tentes of the Churche And therefore when Christe forewarned his Disciples of the desolation to come Math. 24 he said among other thinges Nolite exire go not out leaue not your olde enheritance and your Succession for a vaine promise of a new lande Iewel It is not sufficient to claime succession of place it behouet vs rather to haue regarde to succession of Doctrine Harding Therefore you are no Successour in the Bishoprike of Sarisburie by your owne confession For you keepe not the Succession of Doctrine And we ioyne both together For we know who succedeth in the same Doctrine by his quiet Succession in the place If there be no change in the Churche no tumulte no dissension or contradiction then is it certaine that it is a perfit Succession as wel in place as in Doctrine But if a dissension arise and one saie this is true and the other saie this is not true or if the new Bishop accuse his Catholike Predecessours Doctrine then is it sure
seing we are at variance let vs resorte to the very beginning and to the Original which is our Lordes worde and the Apostolike Tradition This was wel said But the Apostolike Tradition was so as Pope Steuen defended and not so as S. Cyprian woulde haue had it And this M. Iewel neither doo you nor can you denie For your selfe I trow wil not allow that they should be baptized againe in your owne Churche that haue ben before baptized in an other Churche which ye accompte for false heretical or schismatical What meant you then to consecrate S. Cyprians errour and to allege his authoritie therein where it ought not to be admitted and allowed But with you the ouersightes of the Fathers the errours of the Greekes the sayinges of heretiques the examples of Schismatiques the obiections of Schoolemen and Canonistes and the pelfe of Gloses is alwaies good stuffe Iewel S. Cyprian saith If the Pipes of the conduite vvhich before ranne vvith abundance happen to faile do vve not vse to searche to the head Harding Yeas if they could faile But in Christes Churche the Pipes can not faile The Pipes of the CoÌ„duite of Christes Church can neuer faile Math. 28. bicause Christe promised to be with his Apostles and thereby with their Successours al daies vntil the worldes ende If the Pipes of Christes grace and of his Churche faile to runne any one daie then is not Christe that daie with his Pastours and teachers and consequently he is not al daies or euery daie with them But if his worde can not be false then the Pipes neuer failed ne shall not faile and that was wel seene in S. Cyprians question For although they in Afrike had cut of the Pipes by force in changing the former custome and Tradition yet in Rome the Pipes ranne stil and therefore Christe was stil with the Bishops of Rome and with the other Bishops who remained in his Communion Example of agreeing in coÌ„munion vvhere is disagreeing in opinion Yea Christe was also with S. Cyprian bicause S. Cyprian departed not from Pope Steuens Communion But he was with S. Cyprian not in that question wherein he dissented from the Pope but in that he consented and agreed with the Pope For he both dissented concerning the particulare case and consented concerning the general bond of vnitie wishing to haue his owne sentence followed but if it were not followed as it was not content to yelde to his brethren rather then to breake of and to make a Schisme For thus he endeth that epistle which he wrote in that argument to Iubaianus Cyprianus Ad IubaianuÌ„ de Haereticis baptizaÌ„d Si quis putatur contentiosus esse nos talem consuetudinem noÌ„ habemus neque Ecclesia Dei. Seruatur à nobis patienter firmiter charitas animi collegij honor vinculum fidei et concordia Sacerdotij If any man be thought to be geuen to strife and debate we haue no such custome nor the Churche of God The Charitie of minde the honour of the societie the bonde of faith and the concorde of Priesthoode is both patiently and firmely keepte of vs. If M. Iewel if before him Luther and Caluine if al the rest of these Gospellers had none otherwise dissented from the Pope and the whole college of Bishops then S. Cyprian did they might haue ben saued as he vndoubtedly is a glorious Martyr in heauen But they imagined the Pipes whereby grace faith and al other giftes are deriued from Christ vnto vs to haue ben broken of for the space of these nine huÌ„dred yeres past deuised with them selues how they might repaire to the head and so might fetche the watter of life vnto vs by new Conduites and Pipes But they were deceiued For after Christe did once set the Pipes a ronning they neuer ceassed nor shal ceasse to ronne til the day of iudgement For the holy Ghost is promised to abide with the Apostles Ioan. 14. Esai 59. The B. of Rome is the successour of Peter Cyprian lib. 4. epi. 2 ad antâ—nianum Luc. 22. and their Successours in aeternum for euer And their Successours are the Bishops And as the Chiefe of the Apostles was S. Peter so S. Cyprian saith of Fabianus who was Bishop of Rome two hundred yeres after S. Peter Cùm Fabiani locus id est cùm locus Petri gradus Cathedrae sacerdotalis vacaret when the place of Fabian that is to say when the place of Peter and the steppe or degree of the Priestly Chaire was voide So that as Peters faith was most specially prayed for and that not only for his owne sake but to the ende he should strengthen and confirme his brethren euen so was euery Bishop of Romes Faith prayed for to the ende euery one might strengthen and confirme his brethren whiche are al Bishoppes in the truthe of the Faith and in the Gouernement of the flocke That Succession of the Bishop of Rome Augu. in in psalmuÌ„ coÌ„t parteÌ„ Donati and of the See of Peter is the Rocke which as S. Augustine saith the proude gates of Hel do not ouercome So he said eleuen hundred yeres past so vntil this howre the thing it selfe proueth so doo we beleeue that it shal be perfourmed by him that promised it vntil the worldes ende bicause it is the Rocke whiche shal euer confesse the true Faith and feede the sheepe of Christ and staye vp the howse of God and confirme al the faithful that leane vnto it Thus haue I confuted M. Iewel your treatise of Succession The Pipe of Christes doctrin hath coÌ„tinued in the catholike Churche onely which I tooke in hande specially to treate of bicause it sheweth most euidently that ye haue no true Churche bicause ye can shew no Pipe or Conduicte which from Christ vntil your Sectes hath stil continued ronning or hath stil deriued his doctrine and grace vnto them of your side It is the Catholike Church whiche you cal the Papistical Church which hath that Pipe and can euidently shew where the streame hath gonne and how it hath ben mainteined from age to age from generation to generation yea from man to man without any interruption Isai 62. Matth. 5. Philipp 2. Matt. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Esai 59. 1. Timo. 3. Such should the state of the Churche be according to Gods worde where watche men should neuer holde their peace where the citie built vpon the hil can not be hid where the children of light shine like sterres in the middest of the infidelles where Christe is al dayes vnto the worldes ende where the holy Ghoste is for euer teaching al truthe where the piller and sure staye of truthe is visibly seene as with whiche menne be conuersant in this worlde as S. Paule saith where to be shorte Ioan. 21. Christes sheepe are fed of Peter al abiding within the vnitie of his one Folde in this worlde thence and thence only to be transferred vnto the glorious Pasture of life
added vnto Gratian and wel may this be so named bicause it is a thing forged and litle worthe And how could Damasus write of so many Popes whiche liued after his death certaine hundred yeres He saith alleging for his authour Fabian the late merchant of London Pag. 167. that Marriages of Priestes in England were free a thousand yeres together and yet it is euidēt that the English Clergie was gouerned according to the order which our Apostle S. Augustin leaft who by S. Gregories rule might not allow married Priestes He saith the Priestes of England were neuer Votaries for proufe he saith boldely it is knowen and confessed which stout asseueration maketh weake proufe And were it so then surely if any had maried although he had sinned thereby yet the mariage should haue continued whiche is knowen to haue alwaies benne vsed otherwise He calleth the Vow of Chastitie an euil promisse Pag. 168. 169. and an vnhonest Vow whiche worde was neuer yet spoken by any good or honest man For our Ladie vowed her chastitie vnto God Luc. 1. as it is euident by the interpretation of many holy Fathers vpon S. Lukes Gospel He denieth primam fidem the first faith in S. Paule to be meant of the Vow of Chastitie Pag. 170. 1. Tim. 5. whiche is directly against the aunciēt fathers doctrine For although it were expounded of baptisme also yet none but Heretikes euer denied it to apperteine to Vowes He beareth the world in hande as though we violently forced yong Maidens to receiue Vowes Pag. 171. It cōmeth of their owne choise and of Gods grace and not of any constraint of ours He turneth Offerre to Minister the oblation or holy communion Pag. 172. whereas it is to make the oblation before that it be ministred He taketh halfe the sense of S. Paule awaye concerning those whom he exhorteth to absteine from the vse of wedlocke for a certaine time of praier as I prooued before He saith Paphnutius alone was proctour for the truth against the whole Councel of Nice Pag. 173. intending thereby to bring his reader in beleefe that one is better then three hundred and seuenteen For 318. Bishoppes were at that Councel Thus he seeketh to discredite Councelles He burdeneth vs as seming to say that the cōpanie of man and wife is filthinesse which we say not but teach Marriage to be a Sacramēt but yet as not betwen father and daughter so neither betwene Frier and Nonne He saith I haue falsified S. Chrysostoms woordes But it is not so Pag. 174 For S. Chrysostom saith that neither he that had two wiues at once nor he who had ben againe married after his first wiues death may be made Priest by S. Paules rule he speaketh of the seconde Marriage after the first wiues death saying Qui defuncta vxori beneuolentiam non seruat he that rendreth not good wil to his wife being dead how can he be a good gouernour ouer the Church So that by S Chrysostomes interpretation S. Paule literally forbiddeth him to be made Priest who hath had mo Wiues then one whether it were at once or one after an other He corrupteth the text of S. Chrysostom putting for the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this Latine Pag. 175. Chrysost in epist ad Titum Hom. 2. quae discessit à se her that is gone frō him in stede of this worde defunctae which is dead His coniecture taken of the Greeke worde is void and nothing worth For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 decedo doth signifie also to depart this life And it is plainer that S. Chrysostom expressely cōfesseth this sense which we defend saying Quidam hoc ita intelligunt vt ad episcopatū is assumatur qui vnius fuerit vxoris vir Some men do vnderstand this mater that he be taken to Bishophoode who hath ben the husband of one wife And that this last sense not being reproued of S. Chrysostome is the most literal sense it may appeare by these wordes of S. Paule Let her be chosen a widowe quae fuerit vnius viri vxor 1. Tim. 5. which hath ben the wife of one husband Wherefore as by the wife of one husband she is meant which hath not ben twise married so by the husbād of one wife he likewise is vnderstanded that hath not ben twise married Cassiodorus saith M. Iewel writeth that Eupsychius who suffered Martyrdome being newe married Pag. 176. was a Bishoppe What a shameful corruption is this to adde the woorde Bishoppe vnto the text whereas it is euident by Sozomenus the authour of the Storie and by Nicephorus that Eupsychius was a laie gentleman of Cesarea in Cappadocia as is before declared What vile forgerie is this M. Iewel to turne a Gentleman or a Noble man into a Bishop only that a Bishop might seeme to haue married So litle can your Marriages of Bishoppes and Priestes be mainteined without Lies He leaueth out the better halfe of the Glose reciting that parte Pag. 175. which the Glose alloweth not leauing that which it alloweth He saith that a good and diligent Bishop serueth rather the better bicause of marriage But how vntruly he saith it it is before sufficiently declared Certainly I may say were it true then Christ who was the best Bishoppe that euer was and omitted nothing whereby he might haue ben most perfite would haue ben married He saith S. Paule gaue rules to the Clergie that Bishops Pag. 182. and Deacons should be the husbādes of one wife the sense is not wel geuen It is to be vnderstanded that none other husbandes should be Bishops or Deacōs but such as had ben or were the husbandes of one wife He saith further immediatly after the former rule of one wife in the same tenour and course of speache S. Paule sheweth that some shal forbid to marrie This is false It doth not follow immediatly For there goeth betwen a cōmendation of the Church which S. Paule nameth the piller of truth and likewise of the Incarnation of Christ After which wordes S. Paule saith ◠Tim. 4. The spirit saith plainely that in the last daies some shal depart from the faith From whiche faith Verely from that faith of the incarnation and that whereof the Churche is the piller Marke the worde discedent à fide Discedent à fide they shal depart from the faith He that departeth from the faith once had the faith We neuer had your faith M. Iewel neither in any other point nor in this concerning the marriage of Priestes But we had and haue the faith that the lawful Marriage of Christian persons is a Sacrament and that faith had you once when you were baptized and incorporate in our Church You are gon from that faith and not we S. Paul then teacheth that some shal forbid Marriages as the Manichees Encratites and Marcionistes did of whom the Apostle prophecied as S. Chrysostom and diuers other Fathers doo expounde
But saith M. Iewel He that condemneth Marriage in a few Pag. 182. must likewise be called a condemner of Marriage Why sir doo you allow Mariage betwen the Father and the Daughter or betwen the Brother and the Sister If not then you condemne Marriage in a fewe It is to be knowen that Marriage is then forbidden when it is taught that a man hauing no impedimēt in his owne person or when there is no impediment in the person whom he would take is yet forbidden to marrie as if Marriage of it selfe were il or as if it were an il thing in it selfe a man to marrie There is impediment as of blould as betwen brother and sister so of Solemne Vow and of Religion as betwen a Priest and a Nonne or any other woman And as S. Paul doth allow the impediment of bloude counting him a great sinner who had his fathers wife 1. Cor. 5. so doth he allow the impediment of a vow when he saith that the yong widowes if they should be receiued into the number of those chast persons whom the Churche vsed to feede were like to haue damnation bicause they would desire to marie and so would in harte at the least breake their former faith or promise of perpetual Chastitie But saith he let yonge widowes marrie 1. Tim. 5. and bring forth children As who should saie If they were receiued into the solemne number of Widowes then they should make promise not to marrie and that promise perhaps they would breake if not openly yet in hart Thus it is no Deuils doctrine to teache that a person hauing once vowed can not marrie bicause he him selfe geueth the impediment and not the lawe of the Churche For that lawe was in S. Paules time as I now haue shewed after S. Chrysostoms minde Oecumenius saith Pactae sunt quòd Christo adiungerentur reijciunt autem ipsum ad humanas reuolutae nuptias Item pòst verùm quia hoc faciunt nubant seipsas Christo non despondeant They couenaunted that they would be ioined vnto Christe but they shake him of and turne them selues to humaine Marriages But bicause they doo so let them marrie on Goddes name let them not by Vow betroth them selues to Christe Marke Reader S. Paule would not haue them marrie after their profession of Chastitie that might not be in any wise and therefore he wil haue them not to be professed and so to marie Pag. 182. Pope Innocentius is belied he condemneth not Marriage but Incest and vnlauful Marriage and preferreth in Priestes and Deacons holy continencie before the satisfying of Carnal luste Likewise Pope Siricius is fowly belyed If thou deale not chastly yet deale charily Pag. 183. what is meant thereby and how reasonably it is said Infra li. 5. cap. 15. I shal hereafter declare in due place Where I shal cleare the Canonistes of the sclaunder you vtter against them of teaching the people that Simple fornication is no sinne whiche they neuer taught We saie not that men in Marriage can not please God but that such men can not please God who hauing promised by taking holy Orders that they wil liue chaste do breake their promise It is better to marrie in a case then to liue single to some man I graunt it is the auoyding of a greater euil but not of it selfe better For the Apostle saith he that ioyneth his virgin in Marriage doth wel 1. Cor. 7. but he that ioyneth her not doth better Whom God hath ioyned let no man sunder But God ne-neuer ioyned a Priest in Christes Church to a wife after his Priesthood bicause the mans owne facte and vow Pag. 185. is against his Marriage Againe he is alreadie married to Christe who liueth for euer and so whiles his firste spouse liueth he maie marrie no more that is S. Basils reason Although simple fornication be not now pounished with deposing the Priest yet it is not leafte vnpounished Last of al you repeate manie abuses of the Clergie which as in some part maie seme to arise and come of single life so I doubt not but if Priestes were commonly married the case would be muche worse Certainely seeing Christe said there are Eunuches Math. 19. who gelde them selues for the kingdom of heauen the Churche hath done right wel to reserue the highest order for them who do most force vnto them selues for heauens sake And seing S. Paule would haue al men chaste without Marriage as him selfe was muche more it is to be thought 1. Cor. 7. he would haue his owne Successours in the publike ministerie to be suche Againe if among married men he be meetest to be chosen Priest who hath had but one wife he yet were more meete who had none at al. If before Priesthod one wife be the most afterward one is to much If perfection and an Angels life be in most perfite chastitie that same is most meetest for Priestes who are the Angels of God If married persons ought to be apart for a time to haue the more leisour to praye and to communicate he that must stil attend the publike prayer and must bothe offer and minister the Communion had nede stil to absteine from wedlocke specially seing the Priestes of the lawe during the time of their ministerie did not companie with their wiues Eusebius and Epiphanius accompt those counselles and praises of single life which are in holy Scripture to apperteine to Priestes as to the most excellent degree and not vnto the Laie men as who are permitted to vse a lower state of perfection If no man that liueth in warfare to God doo wrappe him selfe in secular busines and yet S. Paul saith 1. Cor. 7. that the maried person doth thinke vpon the thinges of the world and is distracted thereby how conueniently hath the West Churche ordeined that he should only be made a Priest who by Gods grace is content to professe and leade a single life Or how can that Bishop or Priest wholy attend hospitalitie and almose dedes and the profit of his flocke and the setting vp of common schooles of vniuersities of hospitals and almose houses for the poore and such other like dedes of mercie and of publike profit who hath his wife and children to prouide for Had we now had in al England the furniture of Colleges and Scholes whiche God be praysed we haue and should yet haue had more had not the blaste of your Euangelical spirite ouerthrowen them if the Clergie had alwaies ben married Nay the married Bishops that now liue so merily and kepe such continual dalliance and cheere vpon other mennes paines and trauailes were nourished in the Vniuersities specially by their almose and foundations who were single and chaste Bishops and Priestes Thus though nothing be perfite in this life yet the single life of the two is more conuenient for the Clergie both by Gods Worde and by the experience of Ciuil policie Of the Canonical Scriptures the Worde
of God Traditions c. The second Chapter Ievvel Pag. 193. In prooem in prouer Salomon Touching the booke of the Machabees vve saie nothing but that vve finde in S. Hierome S. Augustine and they holy fathers S. Hierom saith the Church receiueth them not emong the Canonical allovved scriptures Harding The bookes of the Machabees canonical emonge the faithful S. Hierome speaketh of such Canonical Scriptures of the olde Testament as the very Iewes allowed for Canonical Such in deede the bookes of the Machabees are not But why haue you not alleged S. Augustines wordes as wel as S. Hieromes Certainely bicause they condemne you For if yee said al that of the bookes of the Machabees which S. Augustine saith you would allowe them for Canonical Scriptures amonge faithful Christians August de De Ciuitat Dei lib. 18. ca. â—6 He saith Machabaeorum libros non Iudaei sed Ecclesia pro Canonicis habet As for the bookes of the Machabees not the Iewes but the Church accoÌ„pteth them for Canonical Hereunto I maiâ— adde but M. Iewel and his Companions accompte not the bookes of the Machabees for Canonical 〈◊〉 theâ—â—in they are of the Iewes Synagog and not of the Church of Christ Now see good Reader â–ª 〈…〉 be made when he said as thou findest noted in the mâ—rgeâ— of his booke Pag. 191. that he would denie no more then S. Austine S. Hierom and other Fathers haue â—enied If you say ye deny not the bookes of the Machabees â–ª 〈◊〉 â—eproue you praying for the dead which is so sufficiâ—â—â—y proued by those bookes Soothly if you allow the one you must allow the other Ievvel Pag. 193. S. Iames epistle Eusebius saith S. Iames Epistle vvas vvritten by some other and not by S. Iames VVe must vnderstand saith Eusebius that it is a bastard epistle Harding You haue abused Eusebius For he leaueth not there but goeth forward shewing what he ment by his word li. 2. c. 23. li. 2. c. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whiche you turne is a bastard But Ruffinus more ciuilly translated it à noÌ„nullis non recipitur The epistle is not receiued of some men And Eusebius him selfe addeth Nos tameÌ„ scinius etiaÌ„ istas cuÌ„ caeteris publicè aplerisque fuisse Ecclesiis receptas Yet we know that S. Iames and S. Iudes Epistles with the rest haue ben publikely receiued of most Churches wherby we learne that Eusebius meaÌ„t by the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 asmuch to say as it is accompted of some men not to be S. Iames owne Touching his owne iudgement he sheweth him selfe to be of the opinion that it is S. Iames epistle Of some he coÌ„fesseth by those wordes that it was doubted of Therfore you haue reported Eusebius vntruly making him to pronounce negatiuely of the epistle which directly he hath not don Iewel S. Hierome saith It is said that the Epistle of S. Iames vvas set forth by some other man vnder his name Hiero. iâ— catalogâ— Harding I graunte But S. Hierom had said before those wordes which you allege Vnam tantum scripsit Epistolam quae de septem Catholicis est He wrote onely one epistle which is one of the seuen Canonical Epistles Hiero. iâ— catalogâ— Ecclesi script Againe after the wordes by you alleged it followeth that the said epistle in processe of time hath obteined authoritie Ievvel 194. VVe Lutherans and Zuinglians agree throughly together in the vvhole substance of the Religion of Christe Harding I perceiue the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud is no substantial point with you and yet he that receiueth it vnworthily 1. Cor. 11. receiueth his damnation And he can not receiue it worthily who beleeueth amisse of it But either the Lutherans or the Zuinglians or bothe beleeue amisse thereof bicause in that behalfe they â—eache cleane contrary doctrine Therefore either both as the truth is or one of those two sectes as them selues must confesse receiueth alwaies vnworthily and consequently they must confesse that one of the two sectes is vtterly damned without any hope of saluation And certainely the Zuinglians as also the Caluinistes are the worse bicause they beleeue Goddes word lesse in some degree then Luther taught and go further from the literal sense of his Gospel 1. Timo. 3. and from the beleefe of the Church which is the piller of truthe Iewel 194. The Church is not God nor is able of her selfe to make or alter any article of the faith Harding Esai 59. Ioan. 14. But she is the spouse of God and to her he hath promised both his wordes and his spirite to remaine with her for euer And therefore she is the chiefe witnes of al the articles of the faith Wherefore seing you hearâ— not her witnesse you ought to be vnto vs as an Heathen Matt. 18. and a Publican Iewel Isai 8. Esaie saith to the lavv rather and to the testimonie If they ansvver not according to this vvorde they shal haue no Morning light Harding Iere. 31. Hebre. 8. This lawe is written also in our hartes as Ieremie and S. Paul doo witnesse And the successours of the Apostles geue also a testimonie of Christe no lesse Ioan. 15. then Christe said the Apostles should doo Therefore the lawe and testimonie whereunto Esaie calleth is as wel that which is written in faithful mennes hartes and which is witnessed in the Church as that which is written in the olde and new Testament Iewel Pag. 194. M. Harding saith further If quietnesse of Conscience comme of the vvorde of God onely then had Abel no more quietnesse of conscience then vvicked restlesse Cain c. VVho vvould thinke that M. Harding bearing suche a countenance of Diuinitie vvould thus goe about to deceiue him false vvith a pointe of Sophistrie Harding Who would thinke that M. Iewel being pressed with a point whereunto he is not hable to make answere would not thus go about to deceiue his vnlearned Reader with a point of Sophistrie I praie thee reader take the paines to peruse what the Apologie saith what I haue said in my CoÌ„futation and what M. Iewel bringeth in the Defence touching this matter I desire no more but that thou read it and then iudge as thou seest cause It is an easy matter for M. Iewel when he hath made me to speake what he listeth to frame an answere accordingly But I must alwaies warne the reader not to beleue M. Iewel when so euer he reporteth either my wordes or any other mannes M. Ievv shifteth him selfe from Scripture to Goddes vvorde but to repaire to the Original Fot seldom is he founde cleere of the crime of falsifying And here he entwiteth me of Sophistrie wheras in deede he vseth the grossest sleight of Sophistrie him selfe He conueigheth him selfe from the Canonical Scriptures to Goddes worde Now I spake of the Scriptures and he answereth of Goddes worde Defence pag 191. Whereas it is said in the Apologie that
But you misse M. Iewel What soeuer God commaundeth but for a time it is his worde And whatsoeuer his ministers do commaunde as profitable to the Church for the present tyme it is Gods word as him selfe said Luke 10. He that heareth you heareth me He that despiseth you despiseth me How be it S. Basil speaketh not altogether as you reporte He maketh not al Traditions equal with Gods worde simply and in al respectes he speaketh of three thinges of Doctrines written and doctrines vnwritte and of customes for which we haue no scripture Of the vnwritten doctrines it is that he speaketh not of customes that they haue equal force with the written doctrines ad pietatem to traine vs to godlinesse As touching vnwritten customes many thinke your example false For we were neuer forbidden to kneele at al vpon the Sonnedaie but at our Lordes prayer whiles it is said at Masse time as some interprete it At which time al the Popes Chappel to this daie vseth to stand vp and not to kneele Iewel Pag. 195. The reste of S. Basiles traditions stand in hallovving of vvater and blessing of oile c. Harding Those Traditions which belong to Sacramentes as that of the blessing of the oile doth maie neuer be changed Those that are mere ceremonial maie be abrogated by custom as the thrife dipping of the childe or of any other that is to be baptized and such others the like which neither S. Basile nor we euer made equal with Goddes expresse worde Iewel Pag. 196. S. Paule saying holde the Traditions which yee haue receiued 2. Thess 2. either by epistle or by worde calleth them traditions although thei vvere conteined in his epistles and deliuered to them by vvriting Harding And also though they were not deliuered by writing You leaue out halfe For he saith by writing or per sermonem that is to saie by speache The writing contemed wordes ergo the speache which differeth from writing were wordes without writing Iewel Pag. 196. VVhereas S. Paule vvil haue his ovvne thinges to be kepte Hieron in 2. Thes 2. he vvil haue no straunge thinges thereto to be added Harding We adde no strange thinges but beleeue that S. Paule preached and deliuered the Sacrifice of the Masse vnto the faithful people so plainly in practise and wordes that the writing was not hable to shew his minde so fully in that behalfe And by Tradition we haue as wel that which he taught by practise as that which he preached whether he wrote it or no. Iewel Pag. 197. S. Paule by the vvord Traditions meant not Ceremonies or certaine secrete vnknovven Verities â— Cor. 15. but the substance of the Gospel I haue deliuered vnto you that Christ died for our sinnes saieth he Harding M. Ievvels Secret vnknovven verities He meant not only Ceremonies I graunt And as for secrete vnknowen verities we haue no suche excepte you are so mad as to cal praying for the dead a secrete vnknowen veritie which hath euen benne knowen to al menne yea wemen and children in the Church of God And that custome of praying for the dead S. Paule did teach as wel as al other the Apostles as Tradition telleth vs Homil. 69. Ad populuÌ„ AntiocheÌ„ witnessed also by S. Chrysostom So that as the whole Gospel commeth vnto vs by Tradition so doth Masse Dirige Holy water Lenten fast and others Iewel Pag. 197. Epist â—6 S. Augustine findeth is not appointed by Christ or the Apostles vvhat daies vve ought to fast Harding Lenten fast is not founde in the Apostles vvritinges but in the Apostolike Traditions Aug. in epist 86. You kepe your kinde in alleging thinges out of their kinde S. Augustine there speaketh of that which is to be founde in the writinges of the Apostles For thus it went before In Apostolicis literis in the Apostolike writinges There he findeth not the Lenten fast But he findeth it in the Apostolike TraditioÌ„s saying in the very same epistle In his rebus de quibus nihil certâ— statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ prolege â—edendasunt Looke in what thinges the holy Scripture hath determined nothing of certaintie the custome of the people of God oâ— the ordinauÌ„ces of the Forfathers Custom is a lavve are to be kept as a lawe Marke that the custom of Gods people must be â—olden for a law prolege for a law M. Iewel It is the epistle alleged by you that saith TraditioÌ„s and customes must be kept for a law And his owne wordes another where are Vt quadraginta illi dies ante Pascha obseruetur Augustin epist 118. Ecclesiae consuetudo roborauit That the fortie daies before Easter should be kepte the custome of the Church hath confirmed and strengthened it And generally he saith Quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs Concilijs commendata atque statuta retineri Looke what thinges we kepe not being written but deliuered by tradition which are obserued al the worlde ouer thereof intelligence is geuen vs that they be kepte in vre as thinges coÌ„mended vnto vs and ordeined either by the Apostles them selues or by the General Councelles Nowe seing the Faste of the fortie dayes was and is generally kepte in the Churche and yet not firste commaunded by any general Councel it remaineth according to S. Augustines rule that it was instituted of the Apostles And S. Hierome by name saith it came from the Apostles In fidei regula discrepamus We differ in the rule of faith from the Montanistes For they denie three persons confounding them into one They accompt the second Marriages as il as Aduoutrie and make three Lenten fastes Nos vnam Quadragesimam secundùm traditionem Apostolorum toto anno tempore nobis congruo ieiunamus We faste at a time conuenient one Lent in the whole yere according to the Traditions of the Apostles Iewel 199. M. Harding saith Persona Ingenitus Homousion are not founde in the scriptures but the sense and meaning is found there Harding So is the sense and meaning of Masse of transubstantiation and of praying to Saintes founde there Iewel Pag. 200. Gennadius saith the perpetual Virginitie of our Ladie is proued sufficiently by scriptures In catalogo Harding Gennadiin catal in Heluid This is a lowde lie Trie it out who wil Gennadius saith not so but only that S. Hieromes booke which he wrote against Heluidius affirming that our Ladie bare children after she had borne Christ was sufficiently fournished with * Documentes testimonies of the Scriptures For although it be not expressely written that she was a perpetual Virgin yet the faith thereof is most agreable to the Scriptures and most certaine in Tradition But were not the Tradition so strong the Scriptures certainely might be doubtful ynough in that behalfe Iewel Pag. 200. Of God and
one to the other the childe which is brought foorth and the Sacrament whereof Christ said That which God hath ioyned Math. 19. let not man separate Iewel 042. In this place M. Iewel setteth vs forth a great many of Phrases The Fathers intreating of the Sacramentes haue vsed vehement and great vvordes c. Harding Whiles you hunte for wordes and Phrases you consider not that the Church of God had the practise of certaine thinges whereby the Fathers wordes were perfitely vnderstanded Restore vs those thinges whiche you can not denie to haue ben in the Primitiue Churche as holy oile Chrisme Monckes consecrated Virgins Altars and Sacrifice for the quicke and dead with other suche and then talke you of wordes what you list I accompt it labour lost to dispute with you about Phrases of speach vpon which Christes faith dependeth not but vpon his Institution and the practise and custom of his Churche the best interpreter of the same Iewel Pag. 206. The Sacramentes of the old and of the nevv lavv in truth and substance are al one Harding I knowe not what you meane by Truth and Substance I confesse the effecte of them al tendeth to one ende That is to ioyne vs with God and with Christe in harte wil and glorie But after Christes incarnation grace is more copiousely distributed by corporal instrumentes to the ende we maie learne to seeke our saluation by the fleash and body of Christe SacrameÌ„tes are the ordinarie meanes vvherby to receiue grace in our Soules Marci 16. Chrysostomus ad Hebrae Homil. 14 1. Cor. 10. Iohan. 20. Iacob 5. who was made Man to saue vs. And therefore although grace be only in our soules yet the ordinarie meane of receiuing grace commeth to vs by the Sacramentes accordingly as it is said He that beleueth and is baptised shal be saued Baptismus saith S. Chrysostom corporis mundatio non est sed animae Baptisme is not the cleansing of the Body but of the Soule Now the Soule is cleansed only by grace Therefore baptisme geueth grace as an instrument appointed therto by Christ And al we being many are one bread and one body which partake of the one bread to wit of the body of Christ saith S. Paule Whose sinnes ye forgeue they are forgeuen And he that is annointed with oile by the Priestes of the Church praying for him in the name of our Lord shal haue his sinnes forgeuen him if he be in any Iewel M. Harding vvil replie S. Augustine saith In Psal 73. the Sacramentes of the new testament geue saluation But his meaning is this Our Sacramentes teache vs that Saluation is alreadie come into the vvorlde Harding So then Dare is to teach and Salus is saluation come into the world Here is gaye geare for wantons to dally with wordes in matter of our Saluation Iewel Contrà Faust Manich. lib. 19. cap. 14. S. Augustine saith in an other place The Sacraments of the olde lavv vvere promises of thinges to be accomplished our Sacraments of the nevv lavv are tokens that the same promises be alreadie accomplished Harding If your wordes had any pith in them I would laye them out at large and answer them fully But now I graunt al that you saie What then Wil it folow that bicause our Sacramentes doo shewe that Christe is alreadie come therefore our Sacramentes geue no grace For that is the point whiche you denie Nay rather they geue grace therefore bicause they shew so much by his Institution For Christe maketh not naked shewes his wordes worke and his deedes be effectual in the soule and his Sacramentes both shew that whiche is done to wit the death of Christe and make vs partakers of the grace purchased by the same He that eateth Christes fleash 1. Cor. 11. Ioan. 6. sheweth his death saith S. Paul and he that eateth my fleash saith Christ hath life euerlasting Marke how our hauing of life goeth together with our shewing of Christes death You diuide these matters and make Christes Sacramentes only to be shewes Iewel M. Harding saith our doctrine is but in a corner of the vvorld and that therfore Christ hath geuen this vvatchevvorde of vs beleue them not Hovvbeit so many kingdoms Countries Common vveales as professe this daye the Gospel vvould make a good large Corner of the Church of God Harding I looke not only to your present state M. Iewel but I looke a litle backward For Christes Church began not with Frier Luther within these fiftie yeres but fifteen hundred yeres past Your Church is not yet very great and nothing so great as the Arians was Howbeit fiftie yeres past it was so smal that not only Christ but euen Photinus or Pelagius would haue benne ashamed of you For your candle was vnder a bushel and your congregation in the desert or in the secrete partes of the house Math. 5. Math. 24. which kinde of Congregations Christ willed vs not to beleeue For his Citie is alwaies vpon a Hil and can not be hid Iewel Pag. 208. Christ meant of Antichrist as it is very likely vvhen he said In Math. Homil. 49 beleue them not For out of the very true Churches come deceiuers as Chrysostome saith Harding And you are the members of Antichrist for you came out of the true Churche when you went from vs. Iewel 208. Verely hovvsoeuer M. Harding vvil shift this matter the plaine vvordes seeme rather to touch him and his companie then either Luther or Zuinglius or any other For they can point vvith their fingers and say here is Christe and there is Christ Behold in this pixe are three Christes in that fiue in that seuen in that moe Therefore it is likely that Christ geueth vs this special vvatchvvord of them and such others beleeue them not Harding If those wordes here is Christ and there is Christ Math. 24 Marc. 13. were meant of his body in the Sacrament euen at his owne Supper it might haue ben said here is Christ and there is Christ For in euery Apostles hand or mouth Christ then was Ambro. de iis qui initiantur myster c. 9. For as S. Ambrose witnesseth In illo Sacramento Christus est quia corpus Christi Christe is in that Sacrament bicause it is the body of Christe S. Chrysostom of purpose answereth your foolish obiection Chryso ad Heb. Homil 17. Quoniam in multis locis offertur Christus multi Christi sunt Nequaquam sed vnus vbique est Christus hîc plenus existens illic plenus vnum corpus Bicause Christ is offered in manie places are there manie Christes No not so But one Christ is in euery of the places being fully here and fully there it is one body Reseruation of the Sacrament of the Alter Againe this Sacrament was preserued euen in the Primitiue Church and sent by Deacons to those that were absent as S. a In Apologia 2. Iustinê° the Martyr and S. b
happeth bicause we yeelde and consent vnto sinne and not bicause the concupiscence of it selfe is sinne before we haue consented vnto it Ievvel 217. S. Augustine saith in most plaine vvise Contra Iulianum lib. 5. c. 3. The concupiscnce of the flesh against vvhich the good spirite lusteth is both sinne and the paine of sinne and the cause of sinne Yet the late blessed Chapter of Trident in spite of S. Augustine hath published the contrarie Harding Thus ye speake in spite of the CouÌ„cel Verely the CouÌ„cel of Trent did determine that which it fouÌ„d in S. Augustin who teacheth most manifestly that the CoÌ„cupisceÌ„ce is not properly sin but is only called so And thereby you know how S. Augustine is to be vnderstaÌ„ded in the place by you alleged His most plaine words are these Augustin coÌ„t duas epist Pelagi li. 1. ca. 13. Dicimus Baptisma dare oiÌ„m indulgentiaÌ„ peccatoruÌ„ et auferre crimina noÌ„ radere Sed de ista coÌ„cupiscentia carnis falli eos credo vel fallere cuÌ„ qua necesse est vt etiaÌ„ baptizatus hoc si diligeÌ„tissimè proficit spiritu Dei agitur pia mente confligat Sed haec etiaÌ„si vocatur PeccatuÌ„ non vtique quia peccatuÌ„ est sed quia peccato facta est sic vocatur Sicut sciptura manus cuiusque dicitur quòd manus eaÌ„ fecerit We say that Baptisme geueth remissioÌ„ of al sinnes and that it taketh crimes quit away and doth not shaue them as who would saye it leaueth not the rootes behind But I suppose that as touching this ConcupisceÌ„ce of the flesh they be either deceiued them selues or that they deceiue others For of this ConcupisceÌ„ce he also who is baptized yea though he profit neuel so wel and be guided with the spirite of God must of necessitie suffer in his Godly mind some conflicte But this Concupiscence albeit it be called sinne yet verely it is not so called bicause it is sinne but bicause it is made by sinne As for example any writing is called the hand of him that wrote it bicause the hand made it If then S. Augustine say most distinctly that the Concupiscence in them that are baptized is not a sinne how spitefully yea how falsely also haue you said that the Councel of Trent defined the contrarie in spite of S. Augustine I pray you be not so angry with the Councel of Trent If your stomake wil not holde in that spiteful humour but you must nedes vtter it yet wil truth be truth Of the Real presence of Christes Bodie in the Sacrament of the Aulter The 5. Chapter The Apologie Pag. 218. VVe saie that Eucharistia that is to saie the Supper of the Lorde is a Sacrament that is an euident representation of the Bodie and Bloude of Christ vvherein is sette as it vvere before our eies the death of Christ and his Resurrâ—ction and vvhat so euer he did vvhilest he vvas in his mortal Body to the ende vve maie geue thankes for his deathe and for our deliuerance And that by the often receiuing of this Sacrament vve may daily renevve the remembrance thereof to thintent vve being fedde vvith the Bodie and bloude of Christe may be brought into the hope of the Resurrection and of euerlasting life and maie most assuredly beleeue that as our bodies be fedde vvith bread and vvine so our soules be fedde vvith the Bodie and Bloude of Christe Confutation fol. 90. b. Among al these gay wordes we heare not so much as one syllable vttered whereby we may vnderstande that yee beleeue the very Bodie of Christe to be in deede present in the blessed Sacrament of the Aulter Ye confesse the Eucharistia whiche commonly ye cal the Supper of the Lorde to be a Sacrament and al that to be none other then an euident token of the Bodie and Bloude of Christe c. Iewel Defence Pag. 220. Here is no mention saith M. Harding of Real presence and thereupon he plaieth vs many a proper lesson Notvvithstanding here is as muche mention made of Real presence as either Christe or his Apostles euer made or in the Primitiue Catholique Church vvas euer beleeued Harding COnsidering how ofte this matter hath ben handled and how few men are ignorant what ech side saith I wil be the shorter in this place First I graunt the eating of Christes body by faith to be necessarie Againe I graunt the Sacrament to be a mystical figure of Christes death and of his visible body But I say farther that besides eating by Faith our flesh and body receiueth Christes body and that really Matt. 26. That these vvordes this is my body this is my Bloude are meant properly TertulliaÌ„ de resurr Carnis Which conclusion is proued bicause the wordes of Christ this is my body are meant properly and without any figure of speach albeit the manner of the presence be figuratiue My reason to proue that Christes wordes are meant properly is the perpetual interpretation of the auncient Fathers the sense and custome of the Churche To beginne with Tertullian he saith in this wise Caro abluitur vt anima emaculetur Caro vngitur vt anima consecretur Caro signatur vt anima muniatur Caro manus impositione adumbratur vt anima spiritu illuminetur Caro corpore sanguine Christi vescitur vt anima de Deo saginetur The flesh is washed that the soule may be made without spot The flesh is annointed that the soule may be consecrated The flesh is signified that the soule may be fenced The flesh is shadowed with the laying on of handes The flesh is the meane vvhereby the grace of God passeth vnto the soule that the soule also may be lightened with the holy Ghost The flesh is fed with the body and bloude of Christe that the soule also may be made fat of God In these wordes as diuers Sacramentes are ioyned together so herein they agree al that the flesh is the meane by which the grace of God passeth to the soule As therfore in Baptisme the flesh is washed that the soule may be cleansed so in the Sacrament of the Aulter the flesh is fed with the body and bloude of Christ that the soule may be nourished with the godhead which dwelleth in that fleshe It is then to be noted that the fleshe eateth not material bread and wine but the body and bloud of Christ For as the thing wherewith we are washed is water and that wherewith we are anointed is oile euen so that wherewith the flesh is fed is the body and bloud of Christ The instrument therefore of Gods grace is none other in the Supper beside that flesh wherein the fulnesse of the Godhed dwelleth It is wel knowen that our flesh hath no faith to eate Christes body withal Therefore when our flesh is said to be fed with Christes body it is clearly meant that our flesh is also really fed with Christes owne substance as it is washed with
vpon in the minde for imitation For he that so receiueth the bloud of his Sauiour with this minde that he is not yet willing to folow his Passion hath put the bloud but vpon one poste The very same bloud which is receiued with the mouth of the hart is also expressely taught to be receiued with the mouth of the body It is not therefore bread that entreth into the mouth of the body and it is the flesh of Christ that entreth into the hart But the selfe same thing which the hart feedeth on entreth in at the mouth These are such testimonies that can neuer be auoided by any Answere and at this present they may suffice for this controuersie of the Real Presence For what soeuer M. Iewel bringeth wel may it perhaps proue a figure which I graunt but that figure is also the truth as it may appeare by these witnesses now alleged For the Fathers be not contrarie one to the other but agree al in one faith and doctrine specially in this matter which was euer so continually beleeued and practised in the whole Churche That in olde time many faithful at the celebration of the holy Mysteries stoode by who receiued not the Communion The 6. Chapter Ievvel Pag. 225. Good menne saith M. Harding vvithdravve them selues and are contented to be present only and to stand by but receiue not the sacramēt Ad ephes homil 3. But Chrysostom saith thou maist no more stande here then an Heathen that neuer vvas christened Harding YOu euer make your aduantage of vntrue reporte I did not cal men good for withdrawing themselues but whereas in cōsideration of their vnworthinesse they would humbly withdraw them selues I said this desire to be present and deuoutely to stand by VVhom S. Chrysostom calleth a Catechumē M. Ievvel interpreteth a Heathen was cōmendable As for S. Chrysostom you abuse him very much by interpreting whom he calleth a Catechumen who is a learner of the faith a Heathē as though they were Heathens that professe the faith which is taught in the schoole of Christ It was truly an heathnish interpretation of yours But that very place of S. Chrysostome proueth it was become to be a custome in those dayes the Christians to be present at the holy Mysteries and to stande by although they did not receiue And S. Chrysostome also suffered his owne people and diocesans so to do How be it reprouing them for negligence in not receiuing he vehemently exhorted and stirred them to ofte receiuing Qua ratione Praecodicit Abite qui preces fundere nō potestis Chrysost ad ephes homil 3. Tu vero impudēter perstas Verum nō es istorū sed de illis qui communicare possunt Et tamē rem hāc nihil curas nihil aestimas Item Aduenisti hymnum cecinisti cum cībus reliquis ex eorum te numero esse qui digni sunt hoc ipso confessus es quòd non cum indignis abscessisti Quomodo cùm manseris de mensa ista non participas For what consideration saith the Crier of the Church depart ye that can not praye Yet thou standest stil impudently But thou wilt saie thou art none of those but of them who may communicate and yet carest thou nothing for it regardest it nothing Item afterward Thou art come hither thou hast songe an hymne in this thy facte that thou didst not departe with the vnworthie thou hast confessed thy selfe with al the rest to be one of them that are worthie Wherefore then doest thou not participate of this table seing thou remaynedst behinde Thus we see it was the custome for the faithful people to be present at the mysteries and to stand by though they receiued not the communion And albeit S. Chrysostom reproueth them fot not communicating yet he doth not excommunicate them as breaking the order of the Church in tarying And yet if there had ben such an order he would haue caused the Deacō no lesse to haue driuen them out then the Catechumens the possessed of Spirites or the penitentes But this oddes there was that they only were of necessitie driuen out of the Church who though they would might not communicate But the reste that might communicate did and might tarie albeit they would not communicate Now a wise man as M. Iewel taketh him selfe to be would vnderstand that how earnestly soeuer S. Crysostom speaketh to prouoke those that were present to communicate yet his meaning was not to burden them with any mortal sinne for standing by without receiuing the cōmunion His wordes therfore import a counsel rather then a precept And verely of the two it were lesse euil to stand by and not to cōmunicate then neither to communicate nor to stand by Neither is the standing by that which chiefly S. Chrysostome reproued but the absteining from the Communion And there is no doubt but if whereas none at al by his owne wordes did sometime communicate S. Chrysostom had seene euery one go out of the Churche and him selfe leafte alone he would then as fast haue called them in againe bidding them at the lest to honour the Sacrifice with their presence if they would not sacramentally communicate S. Augustine crieth out vpon those Heretikes Augustin cōt episto Parmeniani lib. 3. cap. 4. that bring the wordes of the Prophetes whiche they spake against the high Priestes and yet wil not looke to the deedes of the Prophetes who alwayes remained in the same Churche with those high Priestes whom they so muche reproued But now the Lutherans and Zuinglians reprouing vs for certaine thinges departe from our companie faith doctrine and Church wherein they haue no example neither of the Prophetes nor of the Fathers Of Communion in one or both kindes The 7. Chapter Iewel Pag. 229. M. Harding saith neither Christe commaunded nor the Apostles ordeined that the Sacrament should be deliuered to the people in both kindes Certainely these vvords of Christe Drinke yee al of this doo this in my remembrance are very plaine vvordes of commaundement and institution In 1. Cor. homi 27. 1. Cor. 11. Therefore Chrysostome saith that Christe said bothe in the bread and also in the cup Doo this in the remembrance of me And Theophylacte The reuerend cup is in equal manner deliuered to al. And vvhereas Christ saith drinke yee al of this Paschasius putteth thereto these vvordes tam ministri quà m reliqui credentes as vvel the ministers as the reste of the faithful Harding Matt. 26. The literal meaning of drink ye al of this THe literal sense of those wordes Drinke ye al of this was none other then that the Cup should be diuided betwen al the twelue in such sort that two or three of them should not drinke it vp as thinking to haue it filled againe for the reste but that Peter should so drinke as to leaue some for Ihon and Ihon so as to leaue some for Androw and so eche mā to leaue some deale til
alleged For pride is no substance nor creature at al. Man only in his vnderstanding considereth it as somewhat whereas it is only a defecte and failing from humilitie For God neuer made vice Pride is a vice and therefore 〈…〉 But what shal a man saie to this fellow When the name of Substance seemeth to make for him then it standeth properly as the Philosophers vse the worde which is in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but when it seemeth to make against him then it standeth for grace faith wordes and Sacramentes which in some writers are named Substance as the diuines somtimes vse the terme whereto the Greeke terme Hypostasis answereth as S. Paule vseth it Heb. 11. How the Church is resolued in doubtful cases The truth is that seing wordes for the more parte are doubteful ambiguous and subiect to cauilles Christ hath not planted his Church in such sorte vpon wordes that his faithful members should thereby be diuided into many sectes For as he considering our infirmitie lefte vnto vs his holy wil conceiued in such wordes as menne vse in their common speache he lefte also with those wordes a high Pastor Iohan. 21. Luc. 22. by whom we should be fed for whose faith he prayed and his prayer is heard To which chiefe Pastor he gaue power and commaundement to strengthen and cōfirme his brethren So that it is in dede litle worth to hange of syllables and letters but it behoueth vs alwaies to seeke for the meaning of the worde And bicause we should neuer agree among our selues vpon wordes Math. 18. he bound vs to heare the Church the chiefe and ordinarie mouth whereof S. Peter was whiles he liued and after him the Bishops of Rome his Successours haue euer had the same place He then that wil be sure to know how euery worde that belongeth to matter of the faith must be taken in this or in that place of holy Scripture or of holy writers must be ruled by the mouth of his chiefe Pastor Act. 20. Now that Pastor calling to him out of al the worlde the chiefe and best learned Bishoppes ordeined by the holy Ghoste Gouernours of particular flockes hauing seene and heard al that might be said too and fro in the middest of foure hundred threescore and ten Bishoppes and of moe then a thousand learned Diuines besides the assistance of the holy Ghoste called for mature deliberation had and diligent examination of the Scriptures and holy Fathers made founde and by al their consente determined Concil Lateranen ca. 1. that the substance of bread and wine in the Sacrament of the Aulter is by the power of Gods worde changed into the substance of Christes Body and Bloud After whiche determination we know how Gelasius and how Theodoritus must of necessitie be vnderstanded if at the lest we wil heare the Churche as vnder paine of damnation we are bound to doo This answer may suffice al the cauilles that are moued and tossed by M. Iewel touching nature substance subsistence or any like worde Al wordes are ambiguous as S. Augustine confesseth In lib. de Dialecti The highest iudge in the highest courte of Christendome hath geuen sentence He that obeieth hath humilitie and seeth his grounde He that being loth to seeme deceiued wrangleth as M. Iewel doth is proude vaine contentious and disobedient which custome Heretikes haue and euer haue had but as S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 11. the Church of God hath it not Iewel Pag. 262. 263. To leaue these vnfruitful gheasses vve saie that the cuppe of blessing vvhich Christ calleth the Cuppe of the nevv Testament notvvithstanding it vvere made in a Mysterie the Sacrament of Christes Bloude yet in nature and substance vvas very vvine stil and as Christe him selfe calleth it the very fruite and generation of the grape as it vvas before The vvordes of the Euangelist S. Mathevv are very plaine Harding Would God I could so clearely shew to the Reader as the weight of this matter requireth how lewdly you playe as wel with the Gospel as with me It is not I M. Iewel that am incōstant in saying now these wordes were spoken before consecration and now after and perhaps at both times whereat you ieast and scoffe it is not I that changed my minde But whereas one of the Euangelistes telleth the matter one waye and the other an other waye and whereas sometimes they tel thinges out of order as your selfe can not but graunt my answer must needes be such as by al meanes to saue the truthe of the Gospel that howsoeuer these wordes were spoken which be obscure yet the plaine truth should not be hindred by them You sticke to the plaine wordes of S. Matthew as you saie And why sir I praye you may not I as wel claime that S. Lukes wordes are as plaine Luc. 22. I then haue myne eye to bothe and so make a distinction shewing how bothe together may be defended You litle esteming S. Luke talke to vs onely of S. Matthew whereby you declare that you beleue none other Euangeliste ne none other word of God beside your owne fansie Likewise you dissemble how diuersly the Fathers haue expounded the fruite of the Vine and vtter many wordes about a most knowen truth The fruit of the vine which no man denieth wherein as you deserue smal praise of learning so you lose amonge the wise the commendation of discretion For answer to al which I saie that it is a certaine case and cleere out of question that there was wine in Christes chalice whereof the Sacramēt should be made and yet forsoothe you would nedes proue it in many Pages together Againe I say that as there was wine in the chalice whereof the Sacrament should be made so after it was made there was no more the substance of wine And that I wil proue so plainely That after cōsecration there vvas no more the substance of vvine in Christes cup. Luc. 22. that you shal neuer be hable to answer to it Christe him selfe said if at the leste you admitte S. Lukes Gospel This Cuppe is the newe Testament in my Bloude whiche cuppe is shedde or shal be shedde for you The Cuppe shal be shedde for vs saith Christe that is to saye the liquour conteined in the Cuppe shal be shedde for vs. But natural or artificial wine was not shed for vs but onely Christes owne Bloude was shed for vs Ergo onely Christes owne Bloude is in that Cuppe and the substance of wine is not there at al. The wordes are plaine that which is in the Cup or chalice shal be shed for vs that was onely Christes Bloude Therefore onely Christes Bloude is in the Cuppe or Chalice But Christes Bloude is no wine excepte wee cal it wine in suche respecte as Christe him selfe is called the Vine and the grape Therefore no material wine of the common grape is in the Cuppe of Christes Supper Chrysost in 1. Cor. 10. With
these plaine wordes agreeth the Doctrine of the olde Fathers S Chrysostome saith Quod est in Calice id est quod è latere fluxit illius nos sumus participes That whiche is in the Chalice is that Chrysost in Ephe hom 3. whiche flowed from his side and thereof wee are partakers And againe Vasa non participant nec sentiunt Sanguinem quem in se habent nos verò planè The vesselles partake not ne feele not the bloude which they conteine in them but we do partake it And as there Chrysostome saith the vessels haue the same bloud of Christe for the time which commeth to our hartes and soules Augustin epist 86. S. Augustine also saith dicit cessisse panipecus tanquam nesciens tunc in Domini mensa panes propositionis ponisolere nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere Dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem non cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem Vrbicus saith that the Lambe of the newe Testament hath geuen place to the bread of the new Testament being ignorant that both then the shew bread was wont to be put vpon the table of our Lord and that now also he taketh his parte of the Body of the vnspotted Lambe He saith that bloude of the olde Testament hath geuen place to the cuppe not considering that he nowe also receiueth bloude in the Cuppe Marke Reader this comparison of S. Augustine that as the olde Fathers did eate of the Lambe so do we of the true Lambe Christe and as the Priestes of the Law had bloud in their basens euen so haue we in our cuppe whence we receiue it The oddes onely is that their bloude was onely the bloude of Calues not hable to cleanse man but our bloude is the bloude of Christe which cleanseth al sinnes Our Sacramentes therefore are the spiritual noueltie of the new Testament not lacking either Aulter or Fire or Breade or Lambe or Bloude but hauing them al in Christes Body and Bloud into which the breade and wine are so conuerted that the verey true and real bloude of Christe is receiued in the cuppe Oecumenius also saith Oecumenius in cap. 11. 1. Cor. Pro sanguine irrationalium Dominus proprium dat sanguinem et bene in poculo vt ostendat vetus testamentum ante à hoc delineasse Our Lord in stede of the bloud of vnreasonable beastes doth geue his owne bloude and it is wel that he geueth it in a cuppe to shew that the olde Testament did foreshadow this thing Euthymius agreeth with the same Fathers If then it be cleere by Christes owne wordes and by the interpretation of the Fahers that the same bloude which was shed for vs and which ranne out of Christes side was in the cuppe and that thence it is partaken seing that wine was not shed for our redemption it is cleere that after Consecration wine was not in Christes cuppe except as I said before we take wine by a metaphore as Christ is the vine and his bloud is the wine of that vine which Christ is Notwithstanding that I haue great aduantage in the rest of M. Iewels wordes yet seing this much doth suffice for the Catholike reader I wil not spende moe wordes therein but wil passe away to some other mater Concerning the adoration of the Sacrament Adoratiō there is much more said of it in myne owne and in other mennes bookes then as yet M. Iewel or al his fellowes haue answered And that thing wholy dependeth of the real presence Of applying the merites of Christes Death to others in the Masse The 9. Chapter Harding WEe neuer taught that by our Masses wee applied and distributed al the merites of Christes death to men how soeuer they were disposed Iewel Pag. 297. The most catholike pillers of your catholike Church as namely Caietanus haue said that faith is not necessarie for him that receiueth the Sacrament of thankesgeuing notvvithstanding he acknovvlegeth this vvas an errour Harding What vanitie is this to laie that to Cardinal Caietane which your selfe cōfesse he defendeth not but acknowlegeth to be an errour The wordes by you alleged out of a booke made by one Paralip Vrsper anno 1518. that was as false a brother as your selfe do meane no more but that a man may receiue Christes body albeit he haue no faith as Iudas did What is this to the purpose that we speake of Moreouer if Caietane once had thought which he neuer did that by the Masse we applie Christes merites to menne not wel disposed yet seing you say he tooke it for an errour afterward by this meane I might prooue that M. Iewel were a Papist bicause once he professed the beleefe of the Catholike Church when verely that Church was only meant by Godfathers Godmothers and the Ministers which had the Sacrifice of the Masse and praiers to the Saintes and Praiers for the Dead But you can not M. Iewel allege vs any one man that saith that by the Masse we applie the merites of Christ to menne howsoeuer they be disposed Neither doth Gabriel Biel nor Iacobus de Valentia De venerab Sacramento altaris c. 1. nor S. Thomas teache so whose wordes you corrupt with false translation englishing Pro quotidianis delictis for the debte of daily sinnes where debte is not in the Latine And in deede the debte of al sinnes as wel actual as original was taken awaie by the Sacrifice of the Crosse But we see euidently that the acte or actual doing of al sinnes was not then taken awaie For euen now faithful menne do sinne daily Therefore wee neede stil a dayly Sacrifice of none other substance then that of the Crosse was but euen of the very same substance which substance hath in it al his merite of the Crosse And thus we offer Christes body and bloude not now in truth by bloudshedding as once only vpon the Crosse it was offered but in mysterie by changing the breade and wine into his body and bloude We offer it thus I saie to applie vnto deuoute persons by faith and sacramentes the merite of the Crosse praying vnto God that the death of Christ which is euer auaileable in it selfe may through his bloude which we offer in the chalice and drincke with our mouth and partake in our soules by faith and charitie be made auaileabe vnto vs. Iewel Catharinus one of the VVorthies of your late chapter of Trident saith Deincruēto Sacrificio Apparet c. Harding Whatsoeuer he said he is none of our Worthies nor yet is he allowed of the Councel of Trente when soeuer in any matter of Doctrine he speaketh otherwise then that Councel doth I doubte much M. Iewel how in the iudgemēt of wisemen these boish flowtes become a man of your professiō in that so vainly you praise vnto vs now Peter Lombard now Gratian now the Gloser vpon him now Lorichius now Cusan now Catharinus now Caietane now Alphonsus now Pighius
him them selues The fleshe is feeble the minde is sicke and so entangled in the bandes of sinne that it can not set forth her faint and feble foote towardes the seate of that Physician The Angels are to be called vpon for vs who are geuen vnto vs to be our Garde The Martyrs are to be praied vnto of whom it seemeth we maie as it were chalenge a certaine assistance for that we haue their bodies in pledge They may wel pray for our sinnes who with their owne bloud haue washed away their owne sinnes if they had any For these are the Martyrs of God our chiefe Prelates and the ouerlookers of our life and doinges Let vs not be ashamed to vse them as intercessours for our infirmitie whereas they them selues euen then when they wanne the victorie knew wel the infirmitie and weakenesse of the bodie This place M. Iewel sheweth that S. Ambrose who wil not haue any man to flee to Idolles woulde haue al faithful menne to praie to the Saintes for them And yet you for lacke of better stuffe were faine to make your Reader beleeue that the wordes written against the accursed Idolles might be applied by you against the blessed Apostles and Martyrs Whereby you shewe what good opinion you haue of that blessed companie of the house of God who reigning with him in heauen see in the face of the Lambe our hartes so farre as belongeth to their ioye and our comfort This one place of S. Ambrose might haue suffised The practise of the Churche touching the prayer to Saints aÌ„d honour to them exhibited but it shal be good that we ioyne therewith the practise both of the Church in those daies and also of the Heretikes that as wel the Catholikes may see how the Saintes were esteemed in olde time as M. Iewel may perceiue that he is not the first heretike whom it grieued to see Gods Martyrs so to be honoured as they are among the Catholikes Let vs then heare what S. Paulinus writeth in the life of S. Ambrose who liued in his time Paulinus in vita Ambrosâ— Per ideÌ„ teÌ„pus sancti Martyres Protasius Geruasius se sacerdoti reuelaueruÌ„t EraÌ„t enim in Basilica positi in qua sunt hodie corpora Naboris et Felicis Martyrum Sed sancti Martyres Nabor Felix celeberrimè frequentabantur Protasij verò Geruasij Martyrum vt nomina ita etiam sepulchra incognita erant in tantum vt suprà ipsorum sepulchra ambularent omnes qui vellent ad cancellos peruenire quibus sanctorum Naboris Felicis Martyrum ab iniuria sepulchra defendebantur Sed vbi sanctorum Martyrum sunt corpora leuata in lecticis posita multorum ibi Satanae aegritudines perdocentur Coecus etiam Seuerus nomine qui nunc vsque in eadem basilica quae dicitur Ambrosiana in quam Martyrum corpora sunt translata religiosè seruit vbi vestem Martyrum attigit statim lumen recepit Obsessa etiam corpora à spiritibus immundis curata summa cum gratia domum repetebant Sed his beneficiis Martyrum in quantum crescebat fides Ecclesiae Catholica intantum Arianorum perfidia minuebatur Denique ex hoc tempore sedâ—ri coepit persecutio quae Iustinae furori accendebatur vt Sacerdos de Ecclesia pelleretur Tamen intra palatium multitudo Arianorum cum Iustina constitutâ— deridebat tantam Dei gratiam quam Ecclesiae suae Catholica Dominus Iesus meritis Nartyrum suorum conferre dignatus est venerabilémque virum Ambrosium narrabat pecunia comparasse homines qui se vexari ab immundis spiritibus mentirentur atque ita ab illo sicut à martyribus se torqueri dicerent Sed hoc Iudaico ore loquebantur Ariani suppares scilicet eorum Illi enim de Domino dicebant Quoniam in Beelzebub principe Daemoniorum eijcit Daemonia Isti de Martyribus vel de Domini Sacerdote loquebantur quòd non Dei gratia quae per ipsos operabatur immundi spiritus pellerentur sed accepta pecunia se torqueri mentirentur Clamabant enim daemones Scimus vos Martyres Et Ariani dicebant Nescimus esse Martyres About this time the holy Martyrs Protasius and Gernasius reueled them selues to S. Ambrose For they were buried in the Church where at this daie are the bodies of the Martyrs Nabor and Felix But menne haunted very muche vnto the holy Martyrs Nabor and Felix and as for the Martyrs Protasius and Gernasius as theire names were vnknowen so were also their Graues where they laie in so muche that men that were desirous to come to the Grates wherewith the toumbes of the blessed Martyrs Nabor and Felix were fenced from iniurie walked vppon their graues But after that the bodies of the blessed Martyrs were taken vppe and laid in their cofines that many were there cured of their Diseases it is wel knowen Seuerus a blinde man by touche of martyrs garment receiued fighte A blinde man named Seuerus who at this daie ful deuoutely serueth in the same Churche nowe called S. Ambroses Churche whither the bodies of the Martyrs were translated after that he had once touched the garmente of the Martyrs foorthwith receiued his fight Many bodies also possessed of wicked Spirites were cured and returned home with great grace But howe muche the faith of the Catholique Churche by these benefites of the Martyrs grewe more and more so muche did the perfidious falshood of the Arians wexe lesse and lesse Finally after this the persecution which was enkendled by the rage of Iustina the Emperesse which sought to driue Saint Ambrose out of his Churche beganne to slake Neuerthelesse the rable of the Arians who were in the Courte with Iustina scoffed at this great grace of God whiche it pleased our Lord Iesus to bestow vpoÌ„ his Catholike Church through the merites of his Martyrs And they bruted abroad that the reuereÌ„d Bishop Ambrose had hiered meÌ„ with money that should feine them selues to be vexed with vncleane Sprites and saie that they were as wel tormented by S. Ambrose as by the Martyrs But this the Arians like verie Iewes vttered as being in malice their owne companions For the Iewes said of our Lorde He casteth out Deuilles in Beelzebub the Prince of Deuilles But the Arians said of the Martyrs and of S. Ambrose the Priest of our Lord that the vncleane Sprites were not cast out by the grace of God which wrought by them but that menne hiered with money feined them selues to be tormented For the Deuilles cried out We know you to be Martyrs But the Arians said we know not them to be Martyrs Thus farre S. Paulinus Doo you know your Father M. Iewel if ye saw him I meane not your natural Father would God you were so good a man and of so good a faith as he was But I meane your other father that begote Arius whose yonger brother you are At that time the Arians mockte at the miracles wroughte by the Saintes
errour whiche he helde as his priuate opinion was condemned at the sounde of trompettes in presence of that king as Gerson writeth but that was done before he was Pope Iewel 639. Your ovvne Glose saith Dist 63. In Synod in Glos Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori vt deponat ipsum sese illi in omnibus subijcere The Pope maie geue the Emperour povver to depose him selfe and maie in al thinges submitte him selfe vnto him Harding Be it that our Glose saith so M. Iewel your Glose I might rather saie For the Gloser seemeth to be your chiefe Doctour There was neuer Diuine that serued him selfe with the stuffe of the Glose so muche as you doo What inferre you vpon it If you can like a good Logician frame this argument vppon that Glose The Pope maie geue the Emperour authoritie to depose him selfe Ergo the Pope maie be conuented before the Magistrate as one that through vertue of his temporal office is his superiour in Ecclesiastical causes let vs haue it in writing and we wil returne you the like with as good consequence and saie The Queene may geue anie of her Lordes and subiectes power to depose her from her roial estat and to transferre it to an other Ergo shee maie be conuented before that Lord and subiect of hers as one that hath authoritie to depose her of him selfe without commission and authoritie from her grace And if you finde fault with the sequele of this find fault with the sequele of you own For they are both like Dist 93. cap. vltim in Glossa The Law saith Ex alterius persona quis consequitur quod non habet ex sua A man getteth of an other-mannes person that which he hath not of his owne Wherefore the Emperour hauing authoritie of the Pope to depose him Extr. de off iudicis Deleg c. Sanè hath not that authoritie of him selfe or any his Imperial power but of the Pope And seing Iudex delegatus à Papa gerit vices Papae a Iudge delegated of the Pope occupieth the roome of the Pope the Emperour in this case shal not depose him as Emperour but as the Popes Vicegerent and Delegate Iewel Pag. 639. Franciscus Zarabella saith De schemate Concilio It is de Schismate pontificuÌ„ Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibâ—t crimine notorio Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime and the Emperour maie require the Pope to yelde an accompte of his faith Harding Neither Franciscus Zarabella nor Franciscus Zabarella for so is his true name saith as you reporte that Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio M. Ievvel falsifieth his Doctor by addition of his ovvne to helpe his mater The Pope maie be accused before the Emperour of any notorious crime Those wordes coram Imperatore before the Emperour are of your owne interlacing and be not in the Authour You ought to be ashamed so fouly to corrupte your authours and deceiue the people Againe Zabarella sayth not Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem fidei the Emperour may require the Pope to yeelde an accompte of his faieth They are your woordes Maister Iewel That whiche Zabarella saith is thus Zabarella made to saie What pleaseth M. Ievvel Si Papa est de haeresi suspectus potest Imperator ab eo exigere vt indiret quid sentiat de fide that is if the Pope be suspected of heresie the Emperour may require of him that he declare what he thinketh of the Faith Nowe sir to require a man to yeelde an accompte of his Faith and to require him to declare what he thinketh are twoo diuerse thinges For the one can not be donne but by Superiour authoritie the other by waie of friendship and common charitie But as for Superiour authoritie In vvhat case of necessitie the Emperour may entermedle vvith matters of Faith and religion after the minde of Zabarella Zabarella alloweth the Emperour none ouer the Pope nor graunteth that he maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes but in an extreme necessitie to witte if there were two Popes at one time as there were when he wrote this Treatie whence you fetche your falsified sentences and neither would yeelde vnto the other nor the Cardinalles take order for the quiet gouernemente of the Churche in procuring a General Councel and if he saw the Antipape to geue ouer his vsurped Authoritie then the Emperour whose duetie is to defende the Catholique Faithe maie intermedle in Ecclesiastical causes saith Zabarella His wordes are these Cùmergo deficit Papa vel Cardinales Francis Zabarella de Schismate pontificuÌ„ qui subrogantur Papae in Congregatione Concilij vt dictum est in praecedenti quaestione ad ipsum Imperatorem qui pars post praedictos est praecipua Concilij spectat Congregatio Nec quenquam moueat quòd Imperator est Laicus vt ex hoc putet esse inconueniens quòd se intromittat de clericis Non enim semper prohibetur iudicare de clericis sed tunc prohibetur quando non subest ratio specialis Nam propter specialem rationem permittitur vt ratione feudi Hoc autem casu subest ratio specialis imo specialissima ne fides Catholica ruat quod nimium periclitatur diu permittendo pluralitatem in summo Pontificatu In quo maximè est Imperatoris praecipuam habet potestatem Nam permittere plures in Papatu est offendere illum fidei articulum vnam sanctam Catholicam c. Therefore when the Pope faileth or the Cardinalles who are nexte in roome vnto the Pope substituted to the Pope in assembling of a CouÌ„cel as it was said in the nexte question before the assembling of a Councel apperteineth vnto the Emperour who after the Pope and the Cardinalles is the chiefe parte Neither it ought to moue any man to thinke it inconuenient that the Emperour in that he is a laie man should intermedle with maters belonging to clerkes For he is not alwaies inhibited to iudge of Clerkes But then he is forbidden when there is no special cause For it is permitted for some special reason as in consideration of fealtie And in this cause there is a special yea a most special reason that the Catholique Faith come not to ruine bicause it is in great danger by long suffering of pluralitie in the Popedome that is to say of moe Popes then one In which the Emperour is the chiefe doer and he hath the chief power For to permitte many Popes in the Popedome is to offende that article of the Faith I beleeue one holy Catholique and Apostolike Churche By this and the whole discourse that Zabarella your authour maketh there it appeareth M. Iewel that the Emperour hath not the authoritie you pretende but in that case of extreme necessitie And by your aduocate in the Lawe if he had not
Bernard fol. 12. a. Hovv M. Ievv may be pleased fol. 38. b. Flovvres of M. Ievvels modeste speache fol. 50. 51. 52. M. Ievvels scoffes and scornes against God his Church and his Saintes fol. 52. a. b. M. Ievvels Sacramentarie scoffes fol. 52. b. M. Ievvels scoffes against the Pope Bishops and Priestes fol. 52. b. 53. a. M. Ievvels general and particular scoffes fol. 53. 54. M. Ievvels Outcries and scoffing Oes fol. 55. b. M. Ievvels modest marginal Notes fol. 54. b. 55. a. b. M. Ievv plaieth many vntrue partes at once fol. 68. a. M. Ievv falsifieth my ansvver made in the Confutation fol. 44. b. 45. a. 68. b. 69. a. 128. b. 141. a. 147. a. 153 b. 180. b. 223. a. what it is to confute M. Ievv vvritinges fol. 76. b. M. Ievv repeateth obiections and allegations already ansvvered ād confuted dissembling vtterly al answer made fol. 83. b. 84. a 226. a. 227. b. 248. 249. 253. b. 255. b. 256. b. M. Ievvel defendeth opē rebellion and treason 86. a. b. 88. a. Item 183. and 184. in defending wickless trayterous heresie M. Ievvel reasoneth against the Church euen as the Donatistes did fol. 90. b. 91. a. M. Ievv blasphemously maligneth the conuersion of infidels to the faith fol. 96. b. 97. a. M. Ievv contrary to him selfe fol. 98. a. 101. b. M. Ievvels extreme impudencie fol. 106. b. 160. a. b. 221. a. M. Ievvels deceite in equiuocation of termes fol. 119. a. 134. a. M. Ievvels fond limitation against Lirinensis fol. 124. b. 125. a. M. Ievv fond conditions to admit one head of the Churche fol. 138. a. M. Ievvels vaine skoffing fol. 141. b. 150. b. M. Ievvels negatiue argumentes fol. 143. a. 226. b. M. Ievv alleageth obiections of the Doctors made against the Truth as Truthes auouched by the Doctours fol. 144. a. M. Ievvels vvaie to continevve vvrangling fol. 147. b. M. Iewelles ridiculous and loose Argumentes fol. 143. a. 152. b. 155. b. 160. b. 161. a. 162. a. 184. b. M. Iewel falsely alleageth the Fathers sayinges fol. 6. b. 113. a. 156. b. 157. a. 166. b. 173. b. 208. a. 240. b. 269. a. 286. a. 333. b. 387. a. M. Iewel falsifierh the holy Scripture fol. 160. a. 202. a. 222. a. 265. a. 266. b. M. Iewelles dissembling shifte fol. 163. a. M. Iewel misseallegeth the Ciuil Lawe fol. 168. b. 169. a. 380. b. M. Iewel missealleageth and falsifieth Gratian and his Glose fol. 169. a. b. 190. a. 191. a. 204 b. 383. a M. Iewel falsifieth the Councels fol. 183. a. 189. a. M. Iewels forging of the Fathers sayinges fol. 185. a. 186. 290. a. b. 203. b. 209. a. M. Iewel chargeth me with three mayne Lyes 189. b. Item with moe Lies fol. 287. a. 285. a. 295. b. 316. b. 303. a. 285. b. 310. b. 374. b. M. Iewel a scatterer no Successour of any one Bishop fol. 203. a. M. Iewel falsifieth al his Testimonies against Succession fol. 206. b. M. Iewel plaieth the very parte of Antichrist fol. 210. b. 245. a. M. Iewel falsifieth Bitontinus fol. 213. b. M. Iew. continually alleageth those mens sayinges for him vvhose dedes he knovveth to be against him fol. 213. b 229. a M. Ievvel neuer ordered Priest nor Bishop fol. 230. b. 222. a. b. M. Ievvel sticketh not to saie vntruely I vvas present and consented to his Election fol. 232. b. M. Ievvel can shevve no one Predecessour of his Religion in the See of Sarisburie fol. 241. 242. 243. M. Ievvel bevvraieth his lurking heresie fol. 244. M. Ievvels daie and night fol. 246. b. M. Ievvels Lying and Rhetorical addition of vvordes and sentences to his Authors sayinges fol. 199. a. 201. b. 203. b. 204. a. b. 205. b. 208. a. 258. a. 265. a. 302. a. 313. b. 305. a. Intercession to Saintes to praie for vs. fol. 358. a. Iohn the. 22. his errour fol. 64. b. 65. 66 255. b. Iohn Huss fol. 83. a. b. 103. b Iohn of Sarisburie fol. 258. 259. 260. Iohn 22. charged by M. Iew. with the errour of Iohn fol. 23. 66. b. Iohn of Constantinoples ambition fol. 141. a. Iosue mistaken for Osee confessed fol. 143. b. Iouinians heresie making Marriage and virginite of equal merite fol. 296. a. Iuuenalis and Thalassius not condemned in the Councel of Chalcedon fol. 73. b. 74. a. Iuste who maie be called in this life fol. 367. a. L. LAteran great Councel fol. 105. a. 110. b. Lady Interpreter noted of presumption fol. 120. The Lawe by what meanes it is fulfilled fol. 369. a. Leaders awaie of the Flocke who be they fol. 202. b. 267. b. A Legende of Leo alleged by M. Iewel a fonde fable fol. 251. a. Lenten Fast a custom of the Churche fol. 327. a. Leo the first defended from Arianisme fol. 172. b. 173. 174. 175. 176. 177. 251. 252. Liberius defended from Arianisme fol. 62. a. b. 250. a. Life euerlasting how freely geuen and how for good workes fol. 372. b. Light not put out in the Churche for a thousand yeres fol. 90. a. This terme my Lorde vsed of the Antiquitie fol. 175. a Loose Apostates whether the diuisers of this new Gospel maie not so be called fol. 35. b. Luthers dogge eloquence fol. 127. Lutherans and Zuinglians dissension fol. 322. b. M. MAcabees booke Canonical among the faithful fol. 321. b. Magistrate Ciuil not iudge in Ecclesiastical causes fol. 377. a. Manichees heresie denying Christes true flesh fol. 345. a. Marie the Virgin aduocate for Eue. fol. 359. b. Marie our Ladie Queene of al hope of the Fathers c. fol. 365. a. Marcellinus Pope Martyr fol. 248. b. Marcus Callidius an Oratour fol. 42. b. Marriage after Vowe of Chastitie what the Fathers haue iudged thereof fol. 278. b Married twise maie not be made Bisshoppes fol. 279. b. Marriage after holy Order euer accompted vnlawful amōg Catholiques fol. 280. a. Married Priestes in England in Anselmus time fol. 280. b. Marriage vnlawful in twoo cases fol. 281. a. Marriages three good thinges fol. 284. a. Married Priestes in olde time called Apostates fol. 296. b. Marriage a let vnto perfiter life by S. Chrysostome fol. 305. a. Matrimonie a Sacrament that geueth grace fol. 328. b. Masse said by Iohn Husse in his last daies fol. 83. a. b. Menna absolued fol. 382. a. b. Merite changed by M. Iewel into Preeminence fol. 163. a. Merites of Christes death be not receiued by faith only fol. 356. b. Merites of workes fol. 369. b. sequentib Ministers of Tourney fol. 85. a. Monica S. Augustines mother laboured to conuert her husband fol. 315. a. Montanistes heresies fol. 327. a. N. NEstorius a scatterer of the flocke fol. 203. a. Nicephorus belied by M. Iew. fol. 303. a. Nilus a late Greeke Schismatike fol. 225. a. Nipping of Doctours by M. Iewel fol. 305. a. North partes conuerted to the faith in these later ages fol. 94. b. O. Oddes betwene the Protestantes and Catholiques fol. 30. a. 107. b. An Oration forged in the name of Pius fol. 4. 97. b. Order