Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	church_n	doctrine_n	err_v	4,912	5	9.7791	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A02200	M. Some laid open in his coulers VVherein the indifferent reader may easily see, hovve vvretchedly and loosely he hath handeled the cause against M. Penri. Done by an Oxford man, to his friend in Cambridge.	Throckmorton, Job, 1545-1601.; Greenwood, John, d. 1593, attributed name.; Penry, John, 1559-1593, attributed name.	1589 (1589)	STC 12342; ESTC S118462	88,170	130

Rome doth overthrowe the foundation which by his confession in an other place is Iesus christ but because I heare that this learned D. is one of Tarletons executors and it may be he is nowe very busie in proouing of his will I woulde be loath to trouble him at this time nei●her were it reason to drawe him from proouing his friends Testament to helpe to proue any proposition of mine and therfore I wil for this once giue him good leaue to walke where he will and content my selfe only with the testimony of D. Fulke whose words against Stapleton be these If peeces of trueth might be sufficient to make them the Churche of Christ many heretiks might chaleng the church which haue confessed and practised a greate number of more truthes thē they and doe erre but in one article as th' Arlans Pelagians c. whereas the papists erre in many yea in the whole doctrine of iustification by faith and the worship of God Therefore papistry is not onely a scisme error or heresie but an Apostacie defection and Antichristianitie c. Nay more against Bristowe he speaks to this effect seing beside these errors of the fathers ye holde many blasphemous heresies which they neuer hold and vtterly deny th' office of Christ the foundation of our saluation therefore we iustly denie you to be of the true church of Christ. And yet there is an other place as pregnant as any of these in the 14. page as I take it of the same book against Bristowe where he speaketh likewise to the papists in this sort Ye therefore building saluation vppon good workes done after baptisme do manifestly build vpon another foundation then th' onely true ●oundation Iesus Christ and therefore notwithstanding your error you cannot as th' old Fathers erring in small matters be yet the church of God Thus you see I am not so ill befriended but that I can fetch in my proofes though M. Bridges were at no leysure to helpe me But I pray you speake indifferently is not the evidence very cleare for me is not D. Fulk flat against M. Some in that point doth he not say directly that the popish church is both the church of Infidells and that it doeth denie the foundation which were the two points you know I had in hande to prooue Neyther if you marke it doth he mince it with any of these calme and gentle quallifications as if he did allow it for a Church in a sort though an vnsound Church but he layes it down flatly and expresly as you see to the view of al men that it is not at al the Church of God and he yeelds this reason because it buildes not vpon the foundation Iesus Christe Can there any thing be clearer then this Nowe your D. had best take D. Fulke in hande and tell him another while that he doth erre grossely and that if he haue anye learning he doth toto coelo errare or that ●is one of the strangest diuines that euer he heard off or that he is very ignorant very absurde and that his arguments are pitifull and his diuinitie at a low eb or else that his judgement is not worth a rushe c. For some such pretie dagger without a sheathe would become the house well and trouble D. Fulke shrewdly And so we might happen haue a merrie worlde of it when the sicke man should fall a casting of the phisitions water and M. Some fall a setting Doct. Fulke to schoole Well yet we must desire him for all that because it is a law of his owne making that he will not be ouerhastie to confute M. Fulke before he haue confuted his resō for so he wishes M. Penri to do by Calvine and others In deede M. Fulke is a man of singuler learning an enemie to papistes c. A notable light and ornament in Gods Church What M. Some is we will not say we would be loath to doe him wrong Therefore wee will not match him with so famous a man as M. Fulke is You may see now by this whether I be not old excellent at the Art of imitation Me thinks your D. should know the sound of this bell by his clapper I beleeue he can quickly smell out of what forge it came and therefore I haue purposely quoted the place that you may commend my wit for it is but a little altering of the names you see otherwise the case is all one And howe if the ignorant Welshman should now in some requitall be so sawcie to tell him that he for his part doth rest in the judgement of this excellent man with all his heart therevpon should will him Neuer to stand pidling longer but to go through stitch withal sithence he is gone ouer the shoes to rush ouer the bootes c. and to confute M. Fulke to confute him soundly if he can so shall hee haue the garlande and be counted the rarest man aliue c. But if he cannot which we are assured of he shall no more go for a Patriarke among his ignoraunt followers c. And if he giue th'onset and faile be shalbe sure to lose no credit of learning c. These with many other mo being as you know but the crops and flowers of his owne pretie garden I muze with what patience he would disgeast it if a man shoulde thus wipe his nose with his owne sleeue And by this you may see how much your D. hath aduantaged himselfe by troubling the printer with a number of such worthio Enigmaes as may as naturally be apropriate to Iohn a Style as to himselfe By means wherof if he should happen by occasion hereafter to appeal from D. Fulke to the word M. Penri hauing learned the tricke of it would be sure to choake him straight with a pill out of his owne confectionarie in this or the like manner A strange kinde of appealing when M. Fulkes arguments are drawne from the worde and then might not your D. well rue the time that euer he drew out his aduersarie such a line as by turning of a thredd might go neere to strangle himselfe or is it not full as good Englishe and euery way as good sence for M. Penri to say thus Th' argument that I made is indeed M. Fulks and a very sure one as it is for M. Some to say thus The argument that I made is indeed M. Caluines and a very sure one What great ods is there I pray you betwixt these two countertenors Being famous learned men both and both notable members of Gods Churche I see no such difference but that the ballance is full as heauie at this end as at that and that it were as lawful for M. Penri if he were so disposed to say with reuerence that He doth more esteeme of one Fulke then of a thousand Somes as it is for M. Some in a kinde of swelling and disdainfull contempt which he hath

notably layd open in aboue 200. places in his book to say that He doth more esteeme of one Caluine then of a thousand Penries as if that were any thing to the matter or as if the bare defacing of his aduersarie woulde any whit better his cause in the judgement of the wise or as if the trueth of God did at any time hang vpon the gifts and credit of men But now I remember me this is not altogether the bare judgment of D. Fulke alone nether for his books being as you see authorised and aparantly stamped with that State marke of Seene and alowed we may in that regarde trewly say that looke what is there advisedly set downe as this point that the popish church is no church at al must needes be because it is so often iterated and redoubled and to be proued very neere in 20. places of his works therefore I say looke what is there advisedly set downe and not by error or oversight mistaken is implicite the very judgment and resolution of our Church and State which being true M. Some hath a warme sute of it to keepe such a stirre about the authoritie of Calvine when those that my L. of Cant. saith can teach Calvine are of a contrarie judgment wherevppon I could here once againe for neede if I had olde Dorbel of Sarum lying by mee blunder you out an other proper figure or 2. to troūce M. Some with that shoulde sounde in your eares like a Iewes trumpe after the olde melodious manner Yea my learned D. are you good at that Is the winde in that doore are you still controling of our church state c. But because you are reasonably acquainted with this sweete note already I wil not stand nowe to set it in parts only you may see by this that if a man shoulde chance to tel M. Some to his face that to holde that the Romish church is in a sort the church of God is a grosse and palpable error there were no danger in it at all because he that shoulde so doe hath you see not only the judgement of a famous learned man to backe him but also the flat alowance of the Church of England to beare him out in it For Papistry being as M. Fulke hath proued not only a Scisme error and heresie but an vtter defection and a meere Apostacie compact of all errors what shoulde feare vs to say and avowe that our christian magistrates haue done wel not only with Thrasibulus to fly from the tiranny of Athens but rather with Lot and his family to leaue the whole city of Sodome wherein there was not any free place but al the body one a blister Even soe if the popishe Church be in trueth nothing els but a very lumpe masse and body of Apostacie what a proper nice disstinction were this to say that our Magistrates haue indeede seuered themselues from the corruption of Apostacie but not from Apostacie it selfe as if there were any thing in Apostacie but corruption Therefore if M. Some doe thinke he haue any advantage that way good leaue haue he to make his best of it For we are not afraide to say and say it againe yea and if it were possible to proclaime it in the hearing of al the churches in the world that Q. Elizabeth her godly magistrates haue not only seuered themselues from the plague that pestereth the city but from the very city of Sodome it selfe not onely as he saith from the corruption of the popish Church but from the very popish Church it selfe and the reason is because it is in no sort the Church of God hauing overthrowne the foundation and therefore must needs whether M. Some will or noe be the very Sinagog of Sathan And then say I as before that our magistrates haue done well that which they may justifie by good warrant from Gods worde otherwise they shoulde be apparantlye guiltie of a greuous sin which after my kinde of Logicke I prooue thus 1 All christian Magistrates are bounde vtterly to divorce themselues from that Church not only from the corruptions of that Church but from that very Church and society it selfe which hath made a diuorcement from Christ erreth in the foundation of our faith 2 But the Romish Church as is before sufficiently prooued hath made such a divorcement erreth in the very foundation Ergo. Our Magistrates ought as thanks be to God they haue done vtterly to diuorce themselues from that very Church it selfe therefore neede not M. Somes helpe to cleare them from being Scismatikes Thus you may see M. Somes worthy distinction of our Magistrats not severing themselues from the Church but from the Idolatrie of the Churche c. Is by this meanes quite quashed in peeces For if it were indeed in any sort the Church of God then woulde fall out this strange paradoxe that one and the selfe same bodie of a Church might in a sort be the church of Christ and in a sorte againe the Churche of Antichrist and that might be a peece of Iohn a Bridges diuinitie wel enough for the soundnesse of it Furthermore if it were only but from the staines and corruptions of the popish Church that this our seperation was made as M. Some woulde haue it then belike they and we are both one body of a Church though ours be as much more refined body then theirs But howe can that be when they holde not the same heade and foundation that we doe For one body you knowe must haue but one head otherwise it is a monster They then hauing an other heade then we haue we may safely conclude that they are not of the same body with vs neither doe I see any warrant for a Christian man to seuere himselfe from the bodie of Gods Church in that sort as we haue seuered our selues from Rome for any blemishes or corruptions whatsoeuer For so might out Brownists if they list get themselues a pretty pleadable shelter of defence and tel vs That they doe not forsooth seuere themselues from our congregation as from the City but from the plague that pestereth the citye Not from the common wealth but from the Tirannie that oppresseth the common wealth Not from our Church but from the soule disorders that bleamish our Church c. And if they should thus temper the matter I muze whether M. Some woulde be so curteous to take that for paiment But it is not come to that you see for our Brownists are farre of any such coulorable pretences They goe more roundly to worke with vs then so bash not to tel vs plainly though indeede very wretchedly and falsely That our church is not at al the vizible church of God and for that cause it is that they bear vs in hand they do so single themselues from vs and not for any disorders that might otherwise bleamish or dissigure our Church why shoulde we then more mince it with our papists

same chap. he reasoneth thus If they be Churches saith he speaking of popish Churches then they haue the power of the keyes But the keyes are vnseperably knit with the word which from thence is quite driuen away and there vpon he concludes That either the promise of Christ is in vaine or els that in that respect they are no Churches Can any thing be spoken more plainely and directly then this out of which places howe if a man should now argue with M. Some in this manner Where the power of the keyes is not and where the word of God is quite driuen away there it is vnpossible to be any church of God at all But in poperie this is so witnes M. Caluin Ergo. I confesse to you it is strange and strange againe to me that the vizible Church being as I take it alwaies knowne by the Worde Sacraments and Discipline the speciall and principall marke of the 3. being the worde in that it giueth life and authoritie to th'other there shoulde yet be a churche where this worde is not that where this worde is quite driuen away where the very soule of the church is destroyed where there cannot be so much as any true signification of the churche the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles being vtterly bannished wherefore I say all this is as Master Caluine sufficiently prooueth there should yet be a Church this is a wonderfull misterye to me It had neede be in deede as they saye a church secundum quid And yet if there bee nor as Master Caluine saith so much as any true signification of the Churche I doe not see but that they may bee bolde to blot out secundum quid and by good warrant make it none at al As for that which is saide of the Trinity I aske whether the Deuil doe not also beleeue the Trinitie for in the trinitie I am sure non of them both beleeue I haue heard that Demones credunt et contremiscunt Then if this be a good argument the Papist is better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinytie Then say I The Diuell is likewise better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinitie There is only this difference that the papist or the Turke may be a conuert and dye penitent so can nor the Deuil but then say I stil he is no longer either Turke or papist By this you may see that it is not then hauing bare reading or coffering vp of the scriptures Lordes prayer Articles of the faith c. Nor the naming picturing or spelling of the Trinitie but the sound profession of these holy things according to the rule of Gods word that doth make the Church And me thinks if a man consider of it well that which is aleaged before of M. Fulke against Stapleton shoulde so cut the face of these poore prerogatiues brought in for defence of this Church Secundun quid that they shoulde neuer peepe out of doores againe in any printed record without blushing shal I repeat it to you againe Ispeeces of truth saith he might be sufficient to make them the Church of Christ many heretikes might chalenge the Church which confessed practised a number of more truthes then they doe erre but in one article as the Arians Pelagians c. what means M. Some then to tel vs a tale of a Tub of the Lordes prayer articles of the faith Commaundements and some other good things that are amongst them when these and a hundreth of these so longe as they erre as they do in the foundation can not make them the church For the papists saith D. Fulke in the place before recited doe erre in many articles yea in the whole doctrine of iustification of saith the worship of God Therefore Papistrie is not only a Scisme error and heresie but an apostacie Defection Antichristianitie c. and then belike it is somewhat more then M. Some in his calme conceite can wel afforde it to be for it semeth he dare goe noe farther then to An aberration of the Christian Church and so far you see he dare goe boldely And is not that wel For it may be Cardinal Alen with all his troope dare not goe halfe so far wel for a smale resolution of the whole being as we are so strengthened and confirmed herein by the judgment of D. Fulke looke what offer the Demonstration of Discipline maketh to our Bb. that is their liues to their bishopricks the very same offer is here presently tendered to M. Some that vppon notice giuen and leaue obteined of a judicial hearing before her maiestie and the State D. Reynoldes D. Whitakers being judges if it doe not appeare by vnauoydable proofes that the popish Church is not only An unsound Church but no church of God at all and so by that meanes that M. Some is manifestly overthrowne as wel in this point as in sundry others of his tretise the man that so presents him selfe to this encounter wil aske no fauor but willingly submit himselfe to such heauye censure punishment as shalbe thought meete for so rash a disturber of the peace of the Church There is yet an other point in your D. booke that in my conceite his frinds may aswel couer with a curteyne as any of the rest and that is his loose defence of Bare reading and pronouncing the words of th'institution by Dumbe Ministers M. Penri denying that vnpreaching Ministers doe adde an edifying worde to the Element M. Some wil proue it you shal see But first you must giue him leaue to warme himselfe a little at the Magistrates fire for it may be his handes are a colde And then when he hath stirred the coales a while for the better conjuring of his aduersarie you shall see him proue his Anticedent as I beleeue you haue not seene many Anticedents prooued by a D. of diuinitie in your life My Anticedent was saith he that vnpreching Ministers doe ad an edifieng worde to th'Element very wel and will you haue this prooued nowe Then take this with you for a paterne The summe of Cbristes Sermon in th'institution and administration of the holy Supper is the very same that we vse here in the Church of England Ergo. vnlesse we will denie the summe of Christs Sermon to be an edifiing worde we must confesse we haue verbum aedisicans c. and what is this els but as M. Some saith to proue that Midnight is not high Noone and yet I haue hearde that with the Antipodes our midnight is there high noone Neuerthelesse M. Some wee thanke him for his cost bestoweth aboue 20. lines to prooue this deepe mistery vnto vs paraphrasing vpon it full demurely So that eare he haue done withal I dare lay a good wager he wil make it as cleare as it was before that it was cleare enough That the worde of institution the summ of Christs Sermon doth edifie which if Blinde Bartemeus coulde not haue spied yet I