Bishops ouer the Priests All which yet we doe acknowledge in a peaceable and flourishing estate of the Church ought to be had And we haue cause to praise God for our happinesse in England aboue other Churches in this behalfe M. Euerard Here M. Euerard stepping in not being called said I pray you Sir if there may bee a Church without a Bishop who shall ordaine the Priests in that Church D. Featly Sir what are you who intrude your selfe into our priuate conference It seemes you are a Romish Priest Are you not so M. Euerard I am no Priest D. Featly What will you deny your Priesthood M. Euerard I am no Priest to tell you D. Featly Now I perceiue you are not onely a Priest but a Iesuited Priest also For you can equiuocate M. Euerard It is no equiuocation to say I am no Priest to tell you D. Featly Indeed now that you expresse your mentall reseruation you vse no equiuocation but while you concealed it you did equiuocate And I maruell you blush not to vse such a simple shift or euasion as to say you are no Priest to tell me As if you or any man were made a Priest to tell another man you are a Priest At these words the meate was brought in and thereby a stop made of a farther reply for the present But not long after the Guests were all placed the L. reuiued the former question demanding of Doctor Featly L. F. Who should ordaine Priests in a Church where there are no Bishops D. Featly If there bee no Bishops in any adioyning Church by whom they may be ordained and presented to the Church I say in that case the Church to whom Christ as St. August saith gaue the keyes may commit Episcopall authority to certaine Priests and they thus authorized may ordaine other Priests as well as absolue and confirme the baptized and performe other acts ordinarily reserued to Bishops d And this ordination in a troubled state of the Church and in case of necessitie I hold to be lawfull and warrantable both because it hath that which the Apostle requireth 1. Tim. 4. 14. to wit the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery and because there haue bin presidents of such ordination in the Primitiue Church And questionles the Church that committeth the power to one Priest set in an eminent degree ouer the rest may commit the same power to more Presbyters or Priests especially considering it is the iudgement of learned diuines both Protestants and Papists that Bishops and Presbyters differ rather in execution of some acts of their order appropriated to Bishops onely then in their essentiall order A Bishop hath an eminencie of degree in the same order but his ecclesiasticall order is essentially the same with the Presbyters or Priests But what doth this question concerne any here present Neither wee nor for ought I know the Papists themselues define it to be a matter of faith necessary to saluato resolue this way or that way Therefore this question might haue been forborne M. Euerard The Councell of Trent hath defined it therefore to vs it is a matter of Faith D. Featly I scarcely beleeue the Councell of Trent bee it of what credit it may bee hath defined this point in such sort as you intimate M. Euarard I will shew it D. Featly When you shew it I will answer it After this passage some speech hauing been cast in by some of the table concerning differences in point of Religion among the Protestants of England D. Featly said it was to bee considered that the differences amongst the true members of the Church of England were only in point of Discipline and Ceremony not in point of Doctrine or matter of Faith But the Romanists differed one frō another in point of Doctrine and matter of Faith for the present saith he I will instance in two remarkeable particulars First touching the conception of the blessed Virgin secondly touching the Popes supreame authority euen ouer Generall Councells In the first point the Iacobins or dominicants maintaine that the blessed Virgin was conceiued in Originall sinne the Iesuites Franciscans and Sorbonists hold the contrary M. Euarard Yet both keepe the Feast of the immaculate Conception D. Featly They may both keepe a Feast vpon the same day and that for the Conception of our Lady But certainely they who beleeue she was conceiued in sin cannot without hipocrisie keepe a Feast of the immaculate Conception Touching the second point the Sorbonists haue euer held and doe hold to this day that a Generall Councell is aboue the Pope but the Iacobins Iesuits all orders of Friers generally besides many Secular Priests hold the contrary that the Pope is aboue a Generall Councell When I liued in Paris in the Ambassadors house I heard of a generall Chapter as they called it held by the Iacobins in Tho. Aquinas Schoole Where for many dayes together diuers diuinity questions were handled and among other this question touching the Popes superioritie to Councels An acute Serbone Doctor there present thus impugned the Iacobins assertion Whatsoeuer is defined in a Generall Councell confirmed by the Pope is infallibly true de fide But it is defined in a generall Councel to wit the Councel of Constance confirmed by Pope Martin the fifth that a Generall Councell is aboue the Pope Therefore it is infallibly true and de fide that a Generall Councell is aboue the Pope The Auditors the greater part of them very much applauded this argument of the Sorbonist and expressed their applause by a kinde of shout But the Iacobin respondent in a kinde of scorne answered it by retortion thus Whatsoeuer is defined in a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope is infallibly true and de fide But it is defined in a Generall Councell to wit the Councell of Lateran confirmed by Leo the tenth that the Pope is aboue a Generall Councell Therfore it is infallibly true and de fide that the Pope is aboue a Generall Councell At this Syllogisme the Iacobin had neere as great an applause as the Sorbonist Wee that were present of the Reformed Churches vnknowne to the Romanists receiued very much satisfaction to heare Papists amongst themselues thus bandy Councell and Pope against Councell and Pope For from both we concluded that sith contradictories cannot be both true and it appeared in matter of Faith that Generall Councels confirmed by Popes had decreed direct contradictories that therefore Generall Councels confirmed by Popes might erre and consequently that the strongest pillar of a Romanists Faith is weake and tottering M. Euerard The Councell of Constance which decreed a Generall Councell to be aboue the Pope was confirmed by Martin the fifth only in such points as were in that Councell determined against Hus and the Bohemians the Pope confirmed not all points defined in that Councell M. L. Haue you any example of any such confirmation of a Councell wherein some points defined by a
THE GRAND SACRILEGE OF THE CHVRCH OF ROME In taking away the sacred Cup from the Laiety at the Lords Table Detected and conuinced by the euidence of holy Scripture and Testimonies of all Ages successiuely from the first propagation of the Catholike Christian Faith to this present Together with two Conferences the former at Paris with D. Smith now stiled by the Romanists B of Calcedon the later at London with M Euerard Priest By DAN FEATLY Doctor in Diuinity Gelasius de consecrat dist 2. cap. comperimâ—…s Aut integra percipiant aut ab integris arceantur diuisio enim vnius eiusdemque mystery sine grandi sacrilegio non potest prouenire LONDON Printed by Felix Kyngston for Robert Milbourne and are to be sold in Pauls Churchyard at the signe of the Greyhound 1630. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE WILLIAM EARLE OF Pembroke Lord high Steward of his Maiesties Houshold and of his most Honourable priuy Councell Chancellor of the Vniuersity of Oxford Knight of the Noble Order of the Garter ALthough I can challenge no interest in your Lordships fauour yet your Lordsh may challenge your interest in those fruits of my studies which grew vnder the shade of your Honours protection in the famous Nursery of Religion and Learning the Uniuersity of Oxford which the more it flourisheth by the sweet influence of your Lordships wise and mild gouernment the fairer and fresher Garlands of fame it still presents to your Honour Since the Muses of Sion and Helicon chose you their Patron their Reuenewes haue been so enlarged the Libraries furnisht the number of Professors increased the Buildings raised and beautified that you may rightly vse the Apothegme of Augustus Vrbem lateritiam inveni relinquam marmoream or rather in the sacred phrase of the Scripture we may say of you You found the Uniuersity built with Sycamores you willieaue it built with Cedars you found the foundations laid with Bricks you will leaue them laid with Saphyrs Yet the rearing of these high and stately buildings doth not erect so lasting a monument of your praise as the repairing the collapsed discipline and reuiuing of our ancient Statutes the Characters whereof were more worne out in some mens manners then in our bookes But aboue all the safe custodie of that pretious depositum of sauing Truth no way clipt by schisme nor adulterated by Popish heresie nor embased by any semipelagian alloy is to be accounted the Crowne of your glory and our ioyes This is that Palladium which if wee lose we are all lost but if we keepe it notwithstanding the treacheries of Iesuiticall Sinons and Wodden engines of Antichristian Rome Troia stabit Priamique arx alta manebit Of this our most holy and orthodox â—…aith because your selfe and your Noble House haue been alwaies and are at this day vnder his Maiesty a principall defender and protector I make bold to dedicate to your Honour this polemicall Tractate wherein I charge the Church of Rome deepely with no lesse a crime then Grand Sacrilege and to demonstrate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I call in for witnesses against her of the best rank and note from the Apostles times down-wara through all centuries euen to this sixtenth now currant That which the Iesuites haue so long clamored for and many in regard of the razing out and defacing and burning ancient records of truth vnder the tyranny of Antichrist haue thought infecible I haue produc'd a catalogue of visible professors and eminent propugners of a maine Article of our reformed Religion in all Ages And if my trauell herein through many difficult and vnbeaten pathes may be thought profitable to the Church of God I will proceed by the same line in other controuersies as God shall inable and your Lordship incourage Your Lordships humbly deuoted D. F. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER THe people of Germany as Illyricus writeth of them aboue an hundred yeeres agoe complained that in old time there were in the Church woodden Chalices but golden Priests but now say they we haue golden Chalices but woodden Priests A iust complaint against the ignorant Cleargie of Rome in the latter Ages especially before the happie Reformacion of late in our time Yet the ignorance of Priests was not so blameable as their sacrilege was damnable For these wooden Priests tooke away from the peoples vse those golden Chalices and robbed them of that which is farre more precious the heauenly liquor contained in them which is sacramentally as wee say but as they beleeue substantially the blood of our Sauiour the inualuable price of mans Redemption The Heathen Strobilus in the Poet vsed not his Goddesse Fides worse then they doe the deuout Laietie If I finde my treasure saith hee I will offer vnto thee a gallon of sweet wine Trust me Faith I will offer it to thee but I will drinke it euery drop my self In like sort the Romish Masse-Priests vpon a thousand Altars offer many flagons of wine as they pretend for the people as well as themselues but they drinke it all themselues And yet I know not whether more impiously or ridiculously in their priuate Masses and publike Communions they rehearse the words Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke yee all of this that is in their sence and practise Drinke yee none of this but we onely that are Priests Verily of all the abuses in the Masse which is nothing else but a huge heape and masse of idolatrous and superstitious rites there is none more grosse in the doctrine or impious in the practise or absurde in the defence then this of halfing the Communion by with-holding the Cup from the people For it is an open violence offered to our Lords last Will and Testament a violation of the words of the Institution a mutilation of the blessed Sacrament a sacrilegious detention of an holy Legacie from the Sonnes of God In other points of difference our aduersaries lay claime to the Primitiue Church but in this they yeeld it vs. Against other of their errors wee haue frequent testimonies in the former and purer Ages for fiue or sixe hundred yeeres after Christ but few in the later Against this vnsufferable enormity wee abound in passages of good Writers in all Ages In other controuersies the Romanists like Sampsons Foxes are tyed fast by the tailes in this they are loose and parted asunder and they take direct contrary courses They disproue their own proofes and approoue our disproofes of them Penelopes telam texunt retexunt they doe and vndoe There is no argument of ours against them which is not confirmed by some of them no obiection of theirs against vs which is not solued by some of their owne side as thou mayst see through the whole but especially in the last Chapter of this Discourse Into which I Imbarked my studies the rather vpon this occasion About two yeeres since I was desired by a person of qualitie to conferre with a L. a little before that time seduced by
deceitfull guides who first lead the party out of the right way into the Arminian tract and afterward into the high rode of Popery lying not farre off Vpon the first motion I made some difficultie of giuing the party a meeting because I suspected there might be shifted into the company after their manner some disguized Priest lying in subsidijs or in Ambush as it were that he might suddenly rush in vpon the least shew of aduantage Yet after the messenger had assured mee that there were none in the L s companie but such as sincerely affected the truth of the Gospell I made then no scruple but presently accompanied him to the Honorable personages house Where I found notwithstanding that the L. was prouided of a second and that the L. mouth was vsed onely as a trunke to shoote out those poysoned bullets which M. Euerard the Priest and Confessor to this person had chammed before with his teeth Aspis à vipera sumit venenum the Aspe according to the Prouerb borrowed poyson of the Viper The Priest in a few passages of speech vnawares discouered himselfe tanquam sorex suo iudicio whereupon I drew backe and was very desirous to breake of further conference because I expected nothing lesse then sincere dealing in a meeting that was contriued by fraud and began to be acted in a masking manner Yet when I obserued that M. Euerard grew very insolent and audacious vpon my withdrawing my selfe and diuerse Knights and Gentlemen there present religiously deuoted to the Truth both aduised and intreated me not to bee wanting to the necessarie defence thereof Cassium enim hunc sufflaminandum esse at their instance I vndertooke Master Euerard and for many houres sometimes opposed and sometimes answered in diuers points but especially in the question most desired by both parties to bee particularly debated touching the necessity of Communicating in both kinds The conference ended I thought to haue heard no more of it because it being on my part casuall and extemporall I conceiued it of little importance either way But being since informed by an ho nourable Lord that M. Euerard after that encounter had not only with his tongue licked all his wounds whole but also with a venemous tooth fastned many slanders vpon me I thought fit to send him the ensewing relatioÌ„ of the CoÌ„ference requiring him to adde or alter what he thought conuenient in his owne arguments and answers and then to consigne it with his subscription as I meant to doe the rest with mine also Vpon the receit hereof he promised to returne me an answer with speed but after many moneths failing thereof being vrged againe and again and vpbrayded with his tergiuersations in the end he sent me a flat denial by S. P. L. and therein shewed himselfe to be of the nature of the Crocodile or of those barbarous souldiers of whom Muretus obserued that they furiously charge them that yeeld but presently yeeld vnto them that charge them pursuing hard vpon a retiring enemie but flying with all speed from a pursuing Now lest that this my Antagonist should take D. Weston and M. Fisher for two Enfant perdues or forelorne hopes for his presidents who when they ought mederi capiti and answer to the maine touching the visibilitie of a Church professing the Trent Faith 500. yeeres after Christ reduuiam curarunt and leauing quit the matter of Faith shaped some colourable answer to impertinent circumstances of fact and that of no great consequence either way I haue therefore premised a Challenge to M. Euerard as also to M. Fisher to deale with me in this principall Controuersie and I haue set downe the state thereof and added thereunto such proofes for the truth as the holy Scriptures and the prime Authors in all ages haue offered vnto me All which I submit to thy diligent examination and iudicious censure TO MASTER EVERARD ROMISH PRIEST SIr I doubt not but that you haue heard or read of the famous Leaper of Rhodes who hauing bragged in the hearing of many what an incredible leape he had leapt at Rhodes was by some there present taken tardie in his tale and short in his leape they bidding him forthwith to leape that great leape againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hîc Rhodus hîc saltus See her 's Rhodes let vs say they see the leape This plat of ground for leaping is all one with Rhodes In the Schedule which I sent you two yeeres since by S. P. L. I discribed as it were our stande at Rhodes where we tooke our rise The question in hand and the large scope wee had to take our feeze in the whole Scripture and the perpetuall practise of the Church Now if you as either your selfe or your Proselytes haue reported at our encounter in Noble-street so farre out-leapt not me onely but all the Romish Priests and Iesuites that haue met with me vpon the like tearmes let me intreat you to leape that your great leape againe That the print of your feet may remaine to be viewed of all men by the Characters of the Presse Had you learned from the holy Apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ballast your vessell with modest ingenuitie you could not so lightly with a puffe of vaine glory bin driuen on those Rocks at which now you must needs make shipwrack of your Faith or of your fame of your Creede or of your Credit of your Creede if you stand to the defence of your assertions in the Conference of your Credit if you flinch from them For mine owne part I professe sincerely I would haue let your manifold escapes and slips in that extemporarie dispute slip out of memorie your Solecismes in Logick as well as Diuinitie your ignorance of your owne Romish tenets your contradicting your selfe your lame distinctions and crude expressions which cannot indure the light should neuer haue been brought by me to it had you not beene your selfe in the audience of some persons of qualitie your owne Herald and Trumpeter Had you not like one of those Captaines of Alexander mentioned in the first book of Maccabees put a Crowne vpon your own head for your noble exploytes that day Nay had not you or some of your disciples voiced a miracle vpon it that the places which you alleaged against mee out of the Councell of Trent and Cardinall Bellarmine turned to of themselues no sooner had you taken the booke in your hands but presently they fell open at the chapter and pages which you wâ—…re to make vse of against me Iust like as the flattering Senators at Tiberius his table spake of the great Turbet ferued in That the Fish in honour to the Emperour offered himself to be taken as being for many ages preserued for him If you had then M. E. so glorious a day why doe you now make a night of it by shaddowing and vailâ—…ng it in obscuritie and silence why doe you not put forth that Conference your selfe or put your
said to the same Drinke yee all of this to whom before he said Take eate this is my body Fifthly and lastly if it were sufficient reason to redeliuer the Cup in these times to the Laietie who haue been deseruedly depriued of it namely to arme them against eminent persecution why should not the faithfull people of God especially those who neuer incurred the censure of Excommunication or suspension be much rather admitted to drinke of the Cup to arme them against as great or greater conflicts of temptations The sinnew of Saint Cyprians reason is in the word militaturis Those that are to fight the Lords battels are to be strengthened thereunto by taking the Cup of Saluation or drinking the Lords Blood But I assume all Christians in all ages were are and shall be militantes or militaturi such as haue fought doe fight or shall against their ghostly and bodily enemies therefore according to Saint Cyprians military discipline they are to be strengthened and armed thereunto by participating of the Lords Cup. The answere of Bellarmine to the second testimony of Saint Cyprians 63. Epistle commeth not home to the marke by many bowes for albeit the maine scope of that Epistle be to prooue the necessitie of administring the Sacrament in Wine against the corrupt custome of the Aquarij certaine heretikes that administred it in meere water yet on the by he discouereth the practise of the Church in his time to Communicate in both kinds and in the words alleaged be expresly faith that the Cup was ministred or deliuered to the people which is all we produce this passage for SECT IIII. Testimonies of the practise of the Church from 300. to 400. Anno. 314. IN the councel held at Ancyra Deacons that had sacificed vnto Idols are forbidden to exercise any sacred function and in particular nec panem nec calicem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to offer or deliuer bread or the Chalice The Chalice then by their Deacons was deliuered to whom but to the people for Priests administer to Deacons but Deacons neuer to Priests Anno. 316. In the Councell held at Neo-Caeserea can 13. country Priests are forbidden in the presence of a Bishop or the Priest of the citie to deliuer the sanctified bread or Cup to any Here we see the Cup as well as the bread was deliuered at the communion the words are nec panem nec calicem porrigere Anno 325. In the acts of the Councell of Nice set out by Gelasius Cyzicenus we haue a most expresse testimonie of the beleife and practise of the Church in that flowrishing age Let vs vnderstand by faith that in that holy Supper the Lambe of God that takes away the sinnes of the world is offered without blood by the Priests and that wee taking his pretious body and blood doe verily beleeue that they are symboles or pleadges of our resurrection Anno. 337. Iulius the first as we read in Gratian de conse dist 2. condemneth the practise of such who gaue the people a bit of bread dipped in wine for the whole Communion alleaging against this corrupt custome the practise of our Sauiour who when he commended his body and blood to the Apostles he commended the bread and the Cup apart This ancient Pope concludes from our Sauiours practise that the people ought to receiue the holy elements of bread and wine a part consequently that it is not sufficient to giue them the bread dipped Now if it be not sufficient to giue them the bread dipped in the wine Iulius would haue held it much lesse sufficient to giue them drie bread If our Sauior as he rightly conceiueth enioyned that all ought to partake of the elements apart certainly hee enioyned that the people should receiue both and not bread onely or wine onely by concomitancie Anno 340. Athanasius in his second Apology maketh it plainer that the vndeniable custome in his age was for the people to receiue the Cup. This saith he is the vse of this Cup and no other in this Cup you lawfully or of right drinke before or to the Laity This you haue receiued for an Ecclesiastical Cannon it belongs to you alone to drink the blood of Christ before the Laietie Anno 355. Hilarius Pictauiensis de trinitate lib. 8. writeth thus There is no place left of doubting cōcerning the truth of Christs flesh and blood for both by our Lords owne profession and our faith it is truly flesh and truly blood and these being taken and drunke doe worke this effect that Christ is in vs and wee in Christ Saint Hilarie spake of all Christians and saith that they receiue the flesh of Christ hauriunt that is take a draught of his blood which cannot bee without partaking the Cup. For although the doctrine of concomitancie were admitted whereby our aduersaries suppose that the people take the blood of Christ in the body yet certainely there they cannot haurire sanguinem take a draught of blood or drinke it because it is not there in a liquid forme or so that it may be sucked or drunke Anno 365. Cyril Catechesi Mystagogicâ 4. Vnder the forme of bread Christs body is giuen vnto thee that taking the body and blood of Christ thou maist be of one body and blood with him And a little after After thou hast participated of the body of Christ draw neere also to the cup of his blood Anno. 366. Macarius Egyptius hom 27. By offering bread and wine in the Church he gaue vs a patterne to take his body and blood Anno 370. S. Basil in his 289. epistle to Patricia exhorts her frequently to participate the Sacrament of Christs body and blood saying It is good and profitable euery day to participate the holy body and blood of Christ. And in his moralls chap. 22. hee propoundeth this question what is the proper dutie of a Christian and he answereth immediately to haue no spot or wrincle in his Conscience to be holy and vnblameable and so to eate the body and drinke the blood of Christ. Our aduersaries doe well to conceale this testimonie of Saint Basil because it is so direct and full to the point that it admits not any collourable answer He saith that it is the proper dutie of a Christian and therefore not of a Priest onely not to eate Christs body onely and receiue his blood by concomitancie but expresly to drinke it and this hee teacheth to be as necessarie a duty of all Christians as to clense themselues from sinne and to be holy and vndefiled Anno. 372. Gregory Nazianzen surnamed the Diuine S. Basils bosome friend in his 42. oration inuites all to drinke the blood of Christ who look for life by him without any doubting or shamefast feare Eat his body and drinke his blood if thou desirest life and in his second oration he testifieth that his sister Gorgonia after she had Communicated laid vp some part of the
participating of the blood of the Lord. Papists answere If our aduersaries here flie to their old starting hole that by all here all Priests are meant and not all Communicants they may be stopped by that which Hincmarus writeth in the life of this Rhemigius that he gaue a Chalice for the peoples vse with this Motto Hauriat hinc populus vitam de sanguine sacro Iniecto aeternus quem fudit vulnere Christus Rhemigius reddit Domino sua vota Sacerdos Rhemigius Priest that gaue this Cup Prai'th that in it the people sup And still draw life from flowing blood Out of Christs side as of a flood Let it bee noted that hee saith not hauriat hinc clerus but populus not let the Priest but let the people out of this Cup draw life from the holy blood which Christ shed out of his wounds Whereby it appeareth euidently that this Chalice was giuen by the Archbishop for the peoples vse at great and solemne Communions and not for the Priests in their priuate Masses if any such were in Rhemigius his dayes Anno 580. Greg. Turonens de glor Martyr li. 1. ca. 10. relateth a miraculous accident that fel out by occasion of a Iewes child comming with other children to the Communion of Christs body and blood I am sure these children were not Priests that said Masse and if children were admitted to the holy Cup much more men of riper yeeres Papists answer This was an abuse to let children come to the Communion who cannnot examine themselues and therefore from this abusiue coustome no good rule may be drawne The Refutation I allow not of the coustome of admitting children to the Communion in the Church or giuing it them at home though it be more antient then most of the new Articles of the Romish Creede coined by Pope Pius the fourth in his Bull. but I make a true inference though from an erroneous practise as the Apostle doth from a custome among the Corinthians who were baptized for the dead Doubtlesse if the Laietie in those dayes had been kept from the holy Cup children neuer had been admitted to drink of it For no man can imagine that the Church would giue little infants that priuiledge which they denied their parents Anno 537. In the second Councell of Toledo Can. 7. It is ordained throughout all the Countries of Spaine and Gallicia for the confirmation of the new conuersion of the people from Arianisme that before the participation of the body and blood of Christ corporis sanguinis communicationem according to the manner of the Easterne Churches all the Congregation shall with an audible voyce rehearse the most holy Articles of the Christian faith Anno 597. In the third Councel held at Toledo in the reigne of Recaredus c. 2. It is decreed that the people shall first make profession of their faith and so exhibite their hearts purified by faith to receiue Christs body and blood Doth not this Councell speake in the Protestant language that the people are to receiue Christs blood as well as his body and both by faith or which is all one in their hearts purified by faith How neere commeth this to the forme at this day in vse in our Church Feed on him in thy heart by faith I find no exception taken by any Papist at this testimony and therefore there needs no ward where no blow is so much as offered SECT VII Testimonies of the practise of the Church from 600. to 700. Anno. 600. IT was truly spoken of Constantine that hee was Praeteritis melior venientibus auctor Better then his predecessors and a good president to those that succeded him But on the contrary we may say of Gregory the Great that hee was Praeteritis peior yet venientibus auctor that he was bad in comparison of his predecessors but good in comparison of his successours For he was the worst of the good Popes and the best of the euill It was this Pope who sent Austine the Monke into England to propagate the Christian faith who in some places sowed in others watred the seede all ready sowne which was wholesome yet somewhat smutty and such as needed to be washed and clensed from superstition He much stikled for Gregorie his masters authoritie and brought in some customes and ceremonies that sauour rancke to those that are Emunctae naris yet the faith hee preached was for substance the same which the reformed Churches embrace at this day as in my answer to the Iesuites threefold challenge I haue made it appeare And as in other controuersies of greater moment so in this he is cleerely ours Homil. 22. in Euang. he mystically applieth the blood of the Pascall Lambe striken vpon both posts of the doore to the participation of Christs blood in the Eucharist saying The blood is then put on both posts when is taken or drawne in both by or with the mouth of the body and of the heart In the fourth of his dialogues if his c. 58. His body is taken whose flesh is broken and diuided for the peoples saluation his blood is not now powred out vpon the hands of infidels but into the mouths of the faithfull If with any coulour the aduersaries might restraine fideles to the Priests onely yet the word populi going before will enforce them to vnderstand this passage as well of the people as Priests if not the people more especially who are named expresly and not the Priests Papists answer I answer saith Bellarmine that Gregorie and Bede say that Christs blood is taken with the mouth of the body but we denie that they say that it ought to be drunken with the mouth of the body or to be taken vnder the forme of wine Refutation This answer of the Cardinall can argue no lesse in him then either supine negligence or a cauterized conscience For S. Gregorie in the words immediately preceding those aboue alleaged expressely speaketh of drinking Christs blood saying quòd sit sanguis Christi non audiendo sed bibendo didicistis What is meant by the blood of Christ you haue learned not by hearing but by drinking Had he not in expresse words mentioned drinking yet the phrases he vseth hauritur and perfunditur that Christs blood is shed and taken as a draught demonstrates that he speaketh not of partaking Christs blood as it is ioyned to his body and enclosed in his veines but as seuered from it And if the Cardinall himselfe had not been drunke with the Cup of the wine of Babylon he would neuer haue denied that Saint Gregory speaketh of drinking Christs blood vnder the forme of wine when hee vseth that very word u Potat Quis exponere queat quantae fuit miserationis sacratissim â praeciosi sanguinis effusione genus humanum redimere sacrosanctum viuifici corporis sanguinis sui mysterium membris suis tribuere cuius perceptione corpus suum quod est Ecclesia pascitur
Petrus Dresensis taught publikely that the Laietie might not communicate vnder one kind as is confessed by Didacus de Tapia in sent lib. 4. Anno 1412. Iacobellus Misnensis a Preacher of Prage being admonished by Petrus Dresensis after hee had searched into the writings of the ancient doctours and by name Dionysius and Saint Cyprian and finding in them the communicating of the Cup to the Laiety commanded he from thence forth exhorted the people by no means to neglect or omit the receiuing the Communion of the Cup. Anno 1414. In the Councell of Constance in which the entire Communion is professedly oppugned yet the Truth extorted frō her bloody aduersaries a remarkeable confession of the practise of the Primitiue Church and of the continuance of it in diuers parts euen vntil the time of the calling of that Assembly In the petition of those that procured this Synod it is expressed that one cause for which the procurers desired that the Church should take order for the establishing of a law touching the laieties cōmunicating in one kind is declared to be because in some parts of the world the Priests did not forbeare to administer the communiō to the laiety in both kinds against the custome of the Romish Church Here we haue the continuance of this practise the antiquity whereof they likewise acknowledged in the preface to their sacrilegious decree against it Although Christ instituted and gaue the sacrament after supper in both kinds to his disciples and in the primitiue Church it was in like wise administred yet the Councell for certaine reasons commands that the sacrament be otherwise administred As the tree f gaines more branches by being lopped with the axe so the Truth gaineth much lustre and authority from the very Canon of the Councell of Constance by which her aduersaries doe seeke to oppresse her For who will not rather follow Christs institution then their ordinance and the ancient acknowledged practise of the Primitiue Church rather then a late custome of the present Romish Church Anno 1420. Martin the fifth after the Councel of Constance vpon Easter day after hee had deliuered the body of our Lord with his owne hands to the Laiety suffered them to receiue the blood of Christ at the hands of the Deacon The like Henry Kalteysin reportes of other Popes and withall acquaints vs with the cause why the Pope left off this custome It fell out saith he that a certaine Bohemian came amongst the rest to the Popes chappel and receiued the Communion at his hands and hee wonderfully bragged of it whereof Pope Martin being aduertised and much inraged that such a trick was put vpon him from that time tooke away the Cup from the Laiety Anno 1430. Thomas Waldensis who tooke vpon him to refute Wickliffes bookes howsoeuer he maintained the decree of the Councell of Constance touching Communion in one kind yet hee witnesseth that greater personages amongst the people and men of note or place as Kings and doctors and others that were thought worthie so great a mystery were admitted to the Communion in both kinds Anno 1413. In the Councell held at Basil as Nauclerus writeth tom 2. generat 48. a kinde of hope was offered to the Bohemians that vpon certaine conditions the vse of the Cup might be restored vnto them The order of the Councell is conceiued in these words If the Bohemians continue in the desire of the Communion in both kinds and send an Embassage to the Councell to that purpose the holy assembly shall giue libertie to the Priests of Bohemia and Morauia to administer the Communion in both kinds to such persons as being in yeeres of discretion shall reuerently desire it Anno 1438. The Bohemians put the faith and honesty of the Fathers of Basil to the Test they send comissioners Iohn Belouar of Prage Iohn Rokyzana Peter Panie Procopius and others to treat about the concession of the Cup and to expresse their earnest and vnfained desire thereof To whom the Councell returneth this answer That the request should be granted them so that they will really effectually keep vnitie with the Church and conforme themselues in all other things saue the communion in both kinds to the faith and rites of the vniuersall Church SECT XVI Testimonies of the practise of the Church from 1500. to 1600. IN this Age I might produce many Testimonies of such learned Doctors and Professors of the Gospell as haue beene by Gods prouidence raised vp in the Reformed Churches in former and latter yeeres who by their writings learnedly soundly haue mainteined the cause we haue in hand as also doe the ioynt and vnanimous Confessions of the Churches of England France Scotland Germany Polonia Sweueland Morauia Howbeit because the Romanists doe except against all the foresaid witnesses as insufficient and of no authority because they haue departed from their Synagogue therefore I will alleage some prime Doctors of this Age also and men of eminency among themselues maintaining the same truth with vs against whom I see not what iust exception may be taken by them Anno 1541. Gerardus Lorichuis zealously oppugning the sacrilegious practise of the Church of Rome There be false Catholicks saith he that are not ashamed by all meanes to hinder the reformation of the Church They to the intent that the other kind of the sacrament may not be restored to the Lay people spare no kind of blasphemie For they say Christ said onely to his Apostles Drinke yee all of this but the words of the Canon of the Masse be these Take and eate yee all of this Here I beseech them let them ◅ell me whither they wil haue this word all onely to pertaine vnto the Apostles then must the Lay people abstaine from the other kind of the bread also Which thing to say is an heresie and a pestilent and detestable blasphemie Wherefore it followeth that each of these words were spoken to the whole Church Anno 1545. The Ambassadours for the Emperour and for the French King were earnest sutors to the Fathers in the Councell of Trent for the restitution of the Cup to the Layety Anno 1562. The obseruation of Seneca That a lye is of a thin and transparent nature a diligent eye may see through it was verified in the Diuines and Bishops present at the Councell of Trent Whereof some saw obscurely others clearely through this grand lye of the Romish Church which vnder colour of concomitancy subtracteth the vse of the Cup from the Layety For Antonius Mandulfe◅sis had a glympse but Card. Madrutius Gaspar de casa and the Bishop of Quinque Ecclesi◅ and also Amans Seruito a Friar had a full sight of the truth in this point Antonius Mandulfensis Chaplain to the Bishop of Prage professedly impugned the distinction of the Eucharist as a Sacrament and as a sacrifice which distinction the Papists at this day hold before them
Sacrament To coyne new Fathers is a vsuall practise and therefore of no transcending merit but to coyne new Canons of generall Councels and to forge records of such antiquitie as is the true Councell of Ephesus can be no lesse then a worke of superarrogation To the allegation out of the Councell of Constance we answer first that it was no generall Councell The Easterne Church of as large or larger extent then the Westerne sent no Patriarch or Bishop thither Secondly this Councell is impeached by the Romane Church it selfe Bellarmine de concil cap. 7. k speaking of this Councell of Constance saith this Councel so much as concerneth the first sessions is disallowed and repealed in the Councels of Florence and Lateran Albertus Pighius is yet hotter against this Councell saying that it decreed against the order of nature against manifest Scriptures against the authoritie of all antiquitie and against the Catholicke faith of the Church What credit is then to be giuen to this erroneous and perfidious Councell Which both adulterated the Christian faith by heretical decisions and brake their morrall faith by bloody crueltie exercised against Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prague to whom safe conduct to the Councell and backe againe was promised If the Romanists themselues reiect this Councell in point of the Popes Supremacie why may not we in point of the Sacrament Lastly out of this very Councell wee may draw an inuincible argument against the halfe Communion The institution of Christ and practise of the Primitiue Church ought to sway more with euery good Christian then any constitution of a late Councell neuer generally approued of by the Church of God But the Communion in both kinds hath the institution of Christ and the practise of the Primitiue Church for it as is confessed by the Fathers in this Councell Therefore euery good Christian ought to communicate in both kinds the prohibition of the Councell of Constance to the contrary notwithstanding To the allegation out of the Councell of Basil our answer is the stronger by how much the authoritie of this Councell is weaker or rather of no validitie at all First there lyeth against it the same exception which we tooke before against the Councell of Constance that none of the Bishops of the Easterne Churches were present at it and in this regard it cannot bee held for an Occomenicall or generall Councell Secondly while the Fathers of this Councell sate at Basil the Pope fearing least some thing might be done to his preiudice called an other Councell at Ferrara and ◠in this regard the Councell of Basil cannot be esteemed a generall or totall Councell no not so much as of the Westerne or Romane Church Thirdly the Acts of this Councell are repeated in the Councell of Florence and Lateran Pighius writes as bitterly against it as against the Councell of Constance and Cardinall Bellarmine writing of it saith There is nothing of this Councell ratified and allowed but certaine orders about benefices the Councell it selfe is reiected and condemned in the Councell of Lateran Sess. 11. No maruell then if Protestants account the decrees of this Synode no better then drosse when by the Roman test it selfe they are proued to bee no good mettell Wherefore as the Romane Oratour makes a Dilemma touching Brutus and Antonie being in Armes one against the other if Brutus bee a preseruer of his country Antonie is an enemie if Antony be a Consul Brutus is an enemie so may we say of those two Councels of Basil and Lateran if the Councell of Basil bee Catholick Lateran is hereticall if Lateran be Catholick the Councell of Basil is hereticall Lastly be this Councell of Basil of what authoritie it may be the Romanists loose more by it then they gaine For though the halfe Communion were after a sort established in this Councell yet the Bohemians petition for the intire Communion was yeelded vnto and signed in this Councell whence we thus argue against them If the Papists arguments drawne from danger of irreuerence inconueniences examples or testimonies of antiquity and pretended consequences of Scripture were necessary and concludent the Councell of Basil could not lawfully grant to the Bohemians and Morauians the vse of the Cup but the Councell of Basil might lawfully and did yeeld to the Bohemians and the Morauians the vse of the cup Therfore the reasons of the Romanists drawn to the contrary from the heads aboue mentioned are not necessarie or concludent CHAP. XIIII The Arguments of Papists drawne from ancient pretended rites of the Church answered and retorted THere is no more certaine signe of a bad cause then extorted testimonies and wyer-drawne arguments such as our aduersaries for want of better insist vpō in this question For the truth neuer wanteth voluntarie witnesses to depose for her nor arguments that offer themselues in her defence as the Poets faine that stones came of their owne accord to the building of Thebes Such are those proofes which the texts of scpriture without any forcing and the free deposition of all ages before alleaged haue furnished vs withall On the contrarie our aduersaries straine antient rites and customes weakely proued and peruersely applied to excuse their sacrilege They tell vs of reseruing the Sacrament for a long space of carrying it home to mens houses giuing it to infants and impotent persons on their death-bed to Priests put out of their ranck for misdemeanour and lastly of a Communion of such things as were before consecrated All which obseruations are as headlesse arrowes shot at randome Falces petebamus we demand sithes and they answer vs with mattocks Our question is of the publike and generall practise of the Church their answer is of priuate customes our question is of the lawfull vse of the Lords Supper their answer is of abuses and corruptions our question is of the depriuing the Laietie of the Cup their answer is of Priests our question is of fit and worthie receiuers qualified to communicate in both kinds their answer is of children excommunicate persons or men lying on their death-beds This might suffice to wash away their varnish of antiquitie Yet lest they should accuse vs as Fimbria did sometimes Scecuola quòd non totum telum corporereceperimus that wee receiued not the ful thrust into our body I wil bring in their great Cardinal laying amaine at vs in this wise SECT I. From the reseruation of the Sacrament thus he disputeth against vs That the Sacrament was accustomed antiently to be reserued we haue proued by the testimonies of Fathers Councels Now that it was reserued in one kind onely and consequently that the communicants receiued in one kind onely it is manifest because sometimes they reserued it for a very long time Sophronius in his spirituall meddow relates of the keeping of it for a whole yeere but wine especially in a small quantitie could not be kept so long because within that time it would be corrupted The answer First
Lay-man that communicateth in one kind recipit gratiam 4. receiueth grace but in 4. degrees Nugnus in 3. partem Thom. quest 80. art 12. Thus hauing remoued all rubs and obstacles out of the way wee haue passed clearely throughout all Ages from the time of Christ and his Apostles and in euery hundred yeere since produced euidence against the Church of Rome And finally by verdict of some Doctors of chiefe credit among themselues found her to be guiltie of sacrilege in taking away the Cup from the Laiety at the Lords Table If any demand where this Cup may be found I answer as we read in o Genesis it is found with Beniamin I meane the Reformed Churches Etymon filij dextrae chrildren of Christs right hand by which hee distributeth to his people the bread of life and wine of Immortalitie his most pretious body and blood There is yet palpable darknes in Egypt but there is light in Goshen In Rome vnder the Papacie the people are fed with Huskes of legendary fables or at the best with mustie bread of old traditions and sowred with the leauen of heresie And all their publike Communions are dry feasts but in the Reformed Churches the people are fed with the flowre of Wheat the sincere Word of God and drinke of the purest iuyce of the Grape the blood of our Redeemer in the holy Sacrament What shall wee therefore render to the Lord for all the benefits which hee hath bestowed vpon vs we will take the Cup of Saluation and continually call vpon the name of the Lord. So be it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Finis Deolaus sine fine Cassander tract de Communione de vtraque specie pag. 1019. edit Paris 1616. Veteres omnes tam Graeci quà m Latini in ea sententia fuisse videntur vt existimauerint in legitima solemni celebratione Corporis sanguinis Domini et Adminiratione quae in Ecclesia fideli populo è sacra mensa fit Duplicem sâ—…ciem panis vini esse adhibendam atque hunc morem per vniuersas Orientis Occidentis Ecclesias antiquitus obseruatum fuisse tum expriscorum Patrum Monumentis tum ex vetustis diuinorum mysteriorum formulis apparet Et post Ad hoc inductifuerunt exemplo mandato Christi qui instituendo huius Sacramenti vsum Apostolis fiâ—…lium Sacramenta percipientium personam repraesentantibus quibus dixerat Accipite edite idem mox dixit bibite ex hoc omnes quod ex veterum sententia interpretatur Radbertus tam ministri quà m reliqui credentes All the Ancients both Greeke and Latine seeme to be of opinion that in the lawfull and solemne celebration of the Sacrament of Christs body and blood and administring it to the people that both kinds to wit bread and wine ought to be vsed at the Lords Table And it appeares both out of the workes of the ancient Fathers and the old Rites and formes of the diuine mysteries that this custome was obserued in all the Easterne and Westerne Churches And a little after Hereunto they were induced by the Example and Command of Christ who in the institution of this Sacrament speaking to his Apostles then representing the persons of all faithful Communicants said Take and eate and presently after said to the selfe-same Drinke ye all of this which Radbertus according to the mind of the Ancients expoundeth as well Ministers as other beleeuers FINIS A RELATION OF WHAT PASSED IN A CONFERENCE BETWEENE DAN FEATLY Doctor in Diuinity and Mr. Euerard Priest of the Romish Church disguized in the habit of a Lay-Gentleman vnexpectedly met at a Dinner in Noble street Ian. 25. 1626. LONDON Printed by F. Kyngston for Rob. Milbourne and are to be sold at the Greyhound in Pauls Churchyard 1630. THE SPECIALL POINTS of the Conference OF the necessitie of Episcopall gouernment to the essence of a Church 2 Of ordination by Presbyters 3 Of the distinction of Bishops and Priests iure diuino 4 Of differences among Papists in matter of faith 5 Of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary 6 Of the authoritie of a Generall Councell aboue the Pope 7 Of prayer for the dead 8 Of the authority of the originall Scriptures and corruption in the vulgar translation 9 Of the Communion in one kind 1. The state of the question opened 2. The necessitie of communicating in both kinds 3. Popish obiections answered 10 Of the Popes supremacie 11 Of mingling water with wine in the Sacrament 12 Of the perfection of Scripture THE CONFERENCE L. F. I Pray you Doctor Featly resolue mee whether thinke you a Church may be without a Bishop or no D. Featly Your L. propoundeth a question that little concerneth you any way or any member of the Church of England For in England we haue God bee blessed Bishops and those besides many learned Priests very well able to iustifie that Calling If I might bee so bold I would aduise your L. not to trouble your selfe with such curious questions of small or no moment to you wherein learned men without hazarding of their saluation may haue different opinions L. F. I hold it a matter of great moment and desire you not to decline it but plainely to deliuer your iudgement thereof D. Featly I professe Madame with submission to more learned iudgements that I euer held and doe hold that a Church cannot bee without a Priest or a Pastor but it may bee and sometimes is without a Bishop properly so called The Church of Geneua as also the Reformed Churches in France and the Low-Countries and diuers in Germany are true Reformed Churches and yet they haue no Bishops such as you meane Although some of them would after our manner haue them if they could Discipline or a precise gouernment of the Church is not simply of the essence of the Church And therefore albeit it be granted that these Churches haue not the best gouernment nor the Apostolicall discipline in all points yet because they haue the Apostolicall doctrine sincerely taught and beleeued in them and the Christian Sacraments rightly administred I beleeue that they are true Churches L. F. Ought there not to bee Bishops in euery Church by the Law of God D. Featly What if there ought This doth not proue that in case there be no Bishops in some Countries as there ought to be that therefore there are no Churches I say that by the Law of God congregations ought to meet in publike Churches to serue God in his House yet if the vse of publike Churches bee taken away from the faithfull or they be not permitted to resort vnto them as in time of persecution it hath been and in some places is at this day the Pastors and their flocks may meete in Cryptis that is in priuate and secret places as they did in the Primitiue Church And the faithfull thus meeting continue a true Church though they haue neither a Temple allowed them nor Tythe to the Ministers nor
generall Councell are confirmed and the rest not M. Euerard There may bee such a confirmation of a Councell and it was so in that Councell For the Pope neuer confirmed this article touching a general Councels authoritie aboue the Pope D. Featly Had I knowne that I should haue met with you here at this time or that there should haue been any disputation about points of Religion I would haue brought my bookes with me and produced the Acts of the Councell For the present sith we haue not here the Tomes of the Councells all that I wil reply shall be this that as the Councell of Constance defined that a Generall Councell was aboue the Pope so they exercised their power and made good that decree by deposing three Popes in that Councell and setting vp a fourth by name this Martin the fifth whom it much concerned to confirme this Councell euen in that point M. Euerard Those three Popes I say deposed that Councell D. Featly Resolutely spoken and brauely but yet by your fauour the three Popes deposed by that Councell sate downe by the losse and the Fathers that deposed them stil held there Bishopricks and the fourth Pope chosen in that Councell held the Papacy during life This point being thus put off for the present vntill the Tomes of the Councels might be had and the Popes confirmation extant in them explained the Lady asked Doctor Featly Lady Faulkland Whether hee thought the ancient Fathers prayed not for the dead D. Featly Questionlesse they did and Aërius is condemned by them for simply and absolutely condemning the practise of the Church in naming the dead in their publike prayers and celebrating the Sacrament of the Eucharist that is of thanksgiuing for them Wee condemne not all commemoration of or prayers for the dead but the Popish manner of praying for the release of their soules out of Purgatory M. Euerard To what end should the Fathers pray for the dead if not for the release of their soules out of Purgatory D. Featly To what end doth the Church of Rome pray for the soule of blessed Leo and other Saints in heauen I trow not to release their soules out of Purgatorie M. Euerard The Church of Rome prayeth not for the soule of blessed Leo or any Saint now in heauen D. Featly Bellarmine saith she did and yet doth and proueth it out of Innocentius the Pope M. Euarard Will you put this vnder your hand D. Featly I will let it bee written Bellarmine saith that the Church of Rome prayed for the Soule of Saint Leo and other Saints Dan. Featly About this time Master Euerard hauing gotten the Councell of Trent called vpon Doctor Featly to acknowledge his error in denying that the Councell of Trent had defined it as a matter of Faith that a Bishop is in order aboue a Presbyter by the Law of God Looke heere saith he in the 23. Sess. Canon 6. expresly it defines this point g If any man shall say that in the Catholike Church there is not an Hierarchie instituted by Diuine ordination consisting of Bishops Presbyters and Ministers let him be accursed Can. 7. * If any man shall say that Bishops are not superiours to Priests or Presbyters let him be accursed D. Featly This Canon of the Trent Councell defineth not that Bishops Priests differ ordine sedgradu not that Bishops are in Ecclesiasticall order essentially different from Priests but that they haue a degree of superioritie in the same order Secondly the Councel defineth this as a truth but not as a matter of saluation for the Laietie to beleeue vpon paine of damnation And therfore I say as before that this point might haue bin forborne Thirdly the Councell defineth Bishops to be superiors to priests but sayth not iure diuino Here diuers of the auditors desired Doctor Featly and Master Euerard to disscusse the point touching Communion in one kinde which they conceiued to bee a point of great moment because if the Laietie as well as the Clergie ought to haue the Cup the Church of Rome doth them great wrong in debarring them of it and shee violateth Christs institution D. Featly If Master Euerard like well of it we will confine our selues to this point But first I desire a Bible For I will neuer dispute of point of Faith without Scripture the Ground of Faith M. Euerard What Bible will you haue For I allow not of the English Translation D. Featly The originall if it may be had especially the new Testament in Greeke M. Euerard I desire the Vulgar Latine Translation D. Featly What rather then the originall That is strange M. Euerard Not so For the Vulgar Latine is purer then the Greek of the new or the Hebrew of the old Testament D. Featly Will you set your hand to it M. Euerard I will The vulgar Latine Translation is purer then the Greeke of the new or the Hebrew of the olde Testament Ita est Euerard p. D. Featly This is a new and erroneous assertion if not blasphemous M. Euerard Neither erroneous nor new Other Catholikes haue held the same before me and namely Bellarmine De verbo dei lib. 2. cap. 11. Truely it can scarse be doubted but as the Latine Church hath beene more constant in retayning the Faith then the Greek so also that she hath been more vigilant in preseruing her bookes from corruption D. Featly 1. Although Bellarmine had come home to your assertion yet it followeth not but that it is new and erroneous Secondly the reason Cardinall Bellarmine vseth is not found that because the Latine Church hath preserued the Faith purer then the Greeke therefore the Latine Bibles kept by them are freer from corruption then the Greeke Originall For it is not true that the Latine that is as he meaneth the Romane Church hath kept the Faith more sincerely then the Greeke Beside the originall Greeke hath not oenly beene kept by the Greeke Church but also by the Latine Church which Latine Church no doubt had as great or greater care to preserue the Originall from corruption then the Latine Translation Thirdly Bellarmine affirmeth not so much as you doe For he speaketh not a word of the Hebrew of the old Testament in this place but onely of the Greeke of the new Whereas you preferre the Vulgar Latine not onely before the Greeke of the new but also the Hebrew of the old Neither doth Bellarmine say that the Vulgar Latine is simply to be preferred before the Greeke of the new but that the Latines were more carefullin keeping their Latine then the Greekes in keeping their Greeke This might be Bellarmines Iudgement without preferring the Latine absolutely before the Greek For albeit the Latine for a Translation were better kept then the Greeke for the Originall yet he might say still that the Translation must needs come behind the Originall simply A Translation be it neuer so good cannot come neere the Originall in authoritie though it be kept
grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals For a Church may haue been visible yet not the names of all visible Professors now bee shewed and proued out of good Authors There might be millions of Professors yet no particular and authenticall record of them by name Records there might bee many in ancient time yet not now extant at least for vs to come by Yet we will not refuse to deale with you in your owne question if you in like manner will vndertake the like taske in your owne defence and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question which we now propound here vnto you in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent was in all Ages visible especially in the first 600. yeeres and whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all Ages can bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Secondly whereas in a Conference Iune 27. 1623. with you and M. Sweete I vndertook to proue the perpetuall visibility of the Protestant Church both à priore by Syllogisme and à posteriore by Induction and then also made an Essay in both kinds as the time permitted demonstrating the visibility of the Protestant Church being an effect by the eternity of our Faith as the cause And further to stop your clamour for names I produced at that time the names of visible Professors of our beliefe for 200. yeeres Thirdly wheras since the Conference I haue made good my demonstration à priore of the perpetuall visibility of the Protestant Church against all your cauils refuted at large through my whole booke intituled The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own net printed at London 1624. but particularly more especially in the Remonstrance therein to Sr. Humphry Linde frō page the 14. vsque ad finem and in my Reply to your answer Paragraph 8. pag. 89. vsque ad 112 Fourthly whereas now I haue quite finished my demonstration à posteriore and haue set downe the so much harangued for Catalogue of visible Professors in all Ages from Christ to Luther of our Protestant doctrine in a maine point of difference and one of the first mentioned in the Conference touching the communicating in both kinds I now therfore challenge you M. Iohn Fisher according to your deepe ingagement before in and since the Conference as you tender the tickle state of your Catholike cause with your collapsed Ladies immediately after the perusall of this my Treatise to goe about and in conuenient time without further delayes and tergiuersatiō to draw a like Catalogue for your part of such Writers and Authors of note in all Ages who haue defended or at least approued your dry and halfe Communion Which after that you haue performed I will proceed God assisting me to name visible Professors in all Ages in other points of greatest moment But if you refuse to meete mee in this field pitched by your selfe diuerting into your common place of railing at Sectaries and Nouelists Or if like Caligula you triumph at Rome for a signall victory in Germany when he had gathered onely a few pebbles on the shore at Caieta and you thereupon cry out vpon the shifts and tergiuersations of D. Featly whereas to pay you backsome of your owne in coine your white liuer wil not suffer you to come so much as in sight of the walles and gates of my defence but onely to shoote a few paper bullets against three or foure of my redoubts you in all your Replyer not replying one word to the defence of my proceeding in the Conference and Refutations of your answers Or if for want of better imployment Ne toga condylis penula desit oliuis You shall tacke together a cento of relations like Sibylles leaues as much distracted as the braines of the Penner and if you shall intreate in good earnest your Midas Reader to giue credit to your own report in your own cause you being both a Romanist and a Iesuite against the subscription of sundry persons of honor worth and qualitie affixed to the Conference Or if hauing a leaden Treatise that hath long lyen heauy vpon your hands touching no saluation out of the Church of Rome you shall clap my name and D. Whites vpon it to make it sell intituling it A Reply to D. White and D. Featly whereas from the first page being 145. to the last 181. there is not one syllable against either of their writings Fifthly and lastly if you shall change your trade and of a Fisher turne Sawyer nothing but drawing the Saw of your ragged stile 1000. times by the same line backward and forward and neuer pierce into the heart of any Controuersie impute it to no other thing then meere compassion in your opposites that they reioyne not to your Replyes ne famam tuam sponte concidentem maturiùs extinguant suo vulnere lest they should giue a deaths-wound to your reputation that lyeth on bleeding already In tauros ruunt Libyci leones Ne sint Papilionibus molesti FINIS THE SVMME AND SVBSTANCE OF A DISPVTATION BETWEENE M. DAN FEATLY OPONENT AND D. SMITH THE younger Respondent now by the Pope intitutuled Bishop of Chalcedon and Ordinary of all England at Paris Sept. 4. 1612. Stylo nouo touching the Reall presence in the Sacrament LONDON Printed by Felix Kyngston for Robert Milbourne and are to be sold at his shop in Pauls Churchyard at the signe of the Greyhound 1630. THE SVMME AND SVBSTANCE OF A DISPVTATION betweene M. Dan. Featly Opponent and D. Smith the younger Respondent now by the Pope intituled Bish. of Chalcedon and Ordinary of all England at Paris Sept. 4. 1612. Stylo nouo touching the Reall presence in the Sacrament The Lawes of the Disputation 1. That they should dispute calmely and peaceably 2. That all impertinent discourses should be auoided 3. That M. Featly at this time should onely oppose and D. Smith onely answer THese Conditions agreed vpon it was thought fit both should set downe the state of the Question and the points of difference between them which D. Smith being Respondent first vndertooke distinguishing betweene the questions of Reall presence and of Transubstantion and determining the point in question to bee this Whether the body of Christ were truly and substantially in the Sacrament vnder the formes of bread and wine Which being done hee entred into a large discourse to set downe the proofes and confirmations of the affirmatiue vsed by their Church Whereupon he was challenged by M. Featly of a breach of the third Law and so after Master Featly had for his part promised him to answer all his arguments at another time when the hearers should thinke good D. Smith surceased And M. Featly explained the termes of the Question as followeth There are two termes said hee in the question Presence and Reall I distinguish of both First The Scripture
quantum ad primas sessiones reprobatum est in Concil Florent Lateranensi In Hierarchiâ—… k k Huius Concilij nihil est ratum probatum nisi quaedam dispositiones circa beneficia Cor. cil verò ipsum reprobatur in Concil Lateran sess 11. l Vasq. in 3. part Thom. quest 80. art 12. disp 215 cap. 3. Basiliense Concil nullius est auctoritatis in hac re m m Bellar. de sacram Euchar. lib. 4. c. 24. Answ. I. n n Omni hebdomada offerendum est si non quotidie perigrinis incolis tamen velbis in bebdomada o o Iob. Munster à vertleg discurs ea nobilis p p Anno 404. Annal. tom 4. Hic lector considera quà m procul abborreant à patrum traditione vsuque Catholicae Ecclesiae qui nostro tempore negant osseruandam esse sacratissimam Eucharistiam quam videmus non sub specie panis tantùm sed etiam sub specie vini olim consueuisse recondi q q Bellar. de sa Euch. lib. 4. cap. 24. Stromatum 1. p Hard. diuis 19. art 2. Answ. 1. q q Aust. contra Parm. l. 3. Pensandae sunt doctrinae non in statera dolosa consuetudinum suarum sed in statera aequa diuinarum scripturarum r r Concil Caesar Aug. â—…an 3. Eucharistiae gratiam si quis probatur acceptam non consumpsisse in Ecclesia anathema fit imperpetuum 2 t t Iust. in apol 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 u u Nazia in fune Gorgoniae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. x x Hier. epist. ad Rust. Nihil illo ditius qui corpus domini in canistro sanguinem portabat in vitro * * Bellar. desacr Eucha lib. 4. c. 24. Answ. I. x x Nec derelicto cibo poculo Domini y y Quando carnem Christi man ducauerunt vel non manducauerunt quando biberunt vel non biberunt sanguinem c 8. z z Gen. lib. de Eccles. dogmat cap. 52. Si paruuli sunt vel hebetes respondeant pro illis qui illos afferunt ita Eucharistiae mysterijs admittantur * * Bellar. loc supr citato Answ. 1. a a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b b Euseb. Eccles. hist. l. 6. c. 36. c c Bed hist. lib. 4. d d Bellar. loc sup cit Answ. 1. e e Concil Tolotan 4. Can. 17. In Choro Clerus communicet extra chorum populus f f Sola species panis dabatur in manus ex calice autem bibebant qui volebant in Ecclesia sed non licebat laicis calicem tangere g g Annal. tom 1. an Christi 57. Fideles sacrificij tempore olim in Ecclesia sacratissimam Eucharistiam sub vtraque specie panis vini sumebant h h Bellar. loc sup cit Answ. 1. 2 i i Lyturg. praesanctif 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Answer to certaine questions Sect. 5. l l Sozomen Eccles hist. lib. 1. m m Fisher in his answer to certaine questions propounded by King Iames his Maiestie Point 7. Answ. 1. n n Alexand. Hal. 3. paâ—…t q. 11. membr 2. art 4. Corpus non est sacramentaliter sub specie viâ—…i nec sanguis sacramentaliter sub specie panis Ergo vt sacramentaliter sumatur totus Christus necesse est vt sumatur sub duabus speciebus Vid. supra Arg. 2. o o Bell. de sacra Euch. lib. 4. c. 24. Answ. 1. 2 p p Bel. loco supracitat species panis vini non tam essentiales quam integrales partes huiuâ—… sacramenti videntur Answ. 1. q q Ambr. in 1. ad Corinth cap. 11. Indignus est Domino qui aliter mysterium celebrat quà m ab eo traditum est r r Halensis part 3. qu. 11. membro artic 4. sumptio sub vtraque specie minoris est efficaciae complementi Vasquez in 3. Tho. q. 80. art 12. probabilior sententia mihi semper visa est maiorem fructum gratiae ex vtraque specie huius sacramenti quà m ex altera tantùm percipi Ita docet Halensis Gasper Consaluus quam sententiam absolutè secutus est Clemens sextus in Bulla ad Regem Angliae Anno 1346. quâ illi concessit vt ad gratiae augmentum in vtraque specie communicaret Aegidius de Coninck Iesuita Etsi plus gratiae conferat sumptio vtriusque speciei dicimus tamen meritò hoc Ecclesiam non curare quaest 10. art 12. in lib. 4. sent r r De leg Senat consult t t Hier. in Catal. Viror illust Answ. 1. 2 3 4 * * Art 2. diuis 5. x x In Luc. 24. vers 30. 31. y y Gers. defens decret con Constant. z z Confess Polonica * * Tom. 9. tract 35 * * Bell. de sacra Eucha l. 4. c. 24. Melanth Orat. a a Sess. 13. b b In Can. Missae tract 7. c c Quest. 74. part 3. art 2 d d De Cons. dis e e in 1. Cor. c. 11. f f Consil. de Commu sub vtraque specis g g Delegit vsu Eucha cap. 10. h h Disp. 216. c. 4. i i Hist. Bohe. k k Lit. mis Hist. Concil Trid. l l Loâ—… sup cit m m Tap. Consonum est institutioni sacramenti integritati imò exemplo Christi patruÌ„ primitiu Eccles. vt populus communicaret sub vtraque specie citat Cassand tract de commu sub vtraque specie n n 4. part quest 53. memb 1. k Gen 44. 12. l l Psal. 16. 13. a a Hieron aduersus Lucifer Ecclesia non est quae sacerdotem non habet I meane a compleate Church For in some sense that of Tertullian is true Where two or three are there is a Church although they be Laicks Tertul. exhort ad cast b See P. Moul. Bucklet of faith P. Mart. epist. ad Iuel episcop Salisb Zanch ad Grind. Archiep. Bucer Gualterum Item Bezam Suadael ad Epis. copos quosdam Angliae b b Lib. 4. de bapt contra Don. c. 1. 18. tract in Ioh. 124 Ecclesia claues ab â—…oregni coeloruÌ„ accepit in Petro. c c D. Field of the Church lib. 3. c. 239. pag. 156. Presbyters as they may doe all other acts whatsoeuer speciall challenge Bishops in ordinary course make vnto them so they may doe this also Who dare condemne all those worthy Ministers of God that were ordained by Presbyters in sundry Churches of the world at such time as Bishops in those places where they liued opposed themselues against the truth of God He citeth there Armacanus and Alex of Hales affirming that many learned men of their time were of this opinion that Presbyters in case of necessity may ordaine e Quid est enim episcopus nisi primus presbyter denique non aliter quà m cum presbyteros consacerdotes vocat nunquid ministros condiaconos suos dicit episcopus non vtique quia multò inferiores sunt â—…rpe est ludicem dicere Primicerium nam
Alexandriae per totam Aegyptum siâ—…desit Episcopus consecrat Presbyter August ex vtroque Test. mixt quaest 101. D. Mort. Apol. Cathole 21. Presbyter alter alteram ordinare potest non in Ecclesia bene composita sed in statu collapso deplorato maximè in casu necessitatis * * False vid. Vntruth 3. in the Appendix to this Conference * * Infrain Appendice D. Field of the Church lib. 3. cap. 29. Howsoeuer we dislike the Popish manner of praying for the dead which is to deliuer them out of their feigned Purgatory yet wee doe not reprehend the Primitiue Church nor the Pastors nor guides of it for naming them in their publike prayers thereby to nourish their hope of the resurrection and to expresse their longing desire of the consummation of their owne and their happinesse that are come before them in the faith of Christ. * * See the place of Bellarmine cited in the Appendix g Can. 6. Si quis dixerit in Ecclesia cathol Non esse Hierarchiam diuinâ ordinatione constitutam quae constat ex Episcopis presbyteris ministris anathema sit Can. 7. Si quis dixerit Episco pos presbyteris non esse superiores anathemasit See the history of the Councell of Trent lib. 7. p. 478. 480 The Legates consulting among themselues answer that there were cause to declare that a Bishop is superiour to a Priest verum quo iure declarato non esse opus But by what right the Councell need not determine A little after the Doctors in the Councel were diuided about the Hierarchy some placing it in Orders only naming the Orders of Deacons Priests and Bishops and others following For Aerius placed it in iurisdiction a third sort placed it in both and the reasons of their direct opinions are there to be seene The contrary to this assertion is maintained by the learned in the Romish Church vid. Pagn In praef in suam ver sionem Ariam Montanum praef Bibl. Reg. Ignatium Leuitam contra Lindanum alios Pontificios prae omnibus Hieron apologiam pro Hebraicâ Veritate in Prologis Comm. in Zach. cap. 8. vid. Decret 1. part dist 9. ca. vt veteres citat Bellar. plures alios in hanc sententiam de verbo Dei lib. 2. cap. 11. 10. Benedict Parisiensis theologus aliquot millia locorum in lat vulg versione correxit ad veritatem hebraicam graecam edit Paris an 1552. 1558. sed postea prodijt noua editio ibid. 1573. omissis omnibus illis emendationibus cui praefixa est satis insulsa praefatio Iacobi fabri Sorbonici D. h h Certe vix dubitari potest quin sicut Latina Ecclesia constantior fuit in fide retinenda quà m Graecaâ—…ita etiam vigilantior fuerit in suis codicibus à corruptione defendendis Bell. de Verb. Deil. 2. c. 11. h h This Bellarmine must needs say vnlesse he contradict himselfe For a little after in the same chapter he confessâ—…th that in foure cases we may correct and mend the vulgar Latine Translation by the Greeke and Hebrew Fountaines De Verb. Dei lib. 2. cap. 11. sect 17. See Hieron Apolog. ad Pam. Interpretum vâ—…tio quae apud suos purissâ—…o orationis cursu labuntur apud nos vitijs scateâ—…t â—…dem cont Heluid cap. 6. Multo purior manare credenda est sontis vnda quà m riui * * In hunc locum Ignat. exceptioni Bellarm. primae An Ignatius hoc loco corruptus item secundae ac tertiae Item Baronij deprauationi fraudi respondet Nic. Vedelius exercit 2. in epist. ad Philadelph Morn de Eucharist lib. 1. c. 10. 11. vbi de hoc toto argum agit plenissimè k k Quomodo ad Martyrij poculuÌ„ idoneos faciemus si non eos primùm in Ecclesia ad Bibendum poculum Domini iure communicationis admittimus Cypr. epist. 54. ad Cornet l l Cur quidam in calice sanctificando plebi ministrando non faciunt quod Dom fecit docuit m m Ad bibendum sanguinem omnes exhortantur qui volunt habere vitam n n Aut integra sacramenta percipiant aut ab integris arceantur Quia diuisio vnius eius demque mysterij sine grandi sacrilegio non potest prouenire o o Quid sit sanguis non iam audiendo sed bibendo didicistis p p Sanguis non in manus fidelium sed in ora funditur These books of Gregory are cited by Papists against vs vnder his name though they be iustly suspected to be counte feit in learned Diuines iudgement * * See an answer to these pretended ancient Rites supra c. 14. l l It is now two yeeres and more since Master Euerard hath had this Scedule in his hand vnto which he hath been sundry times importuned to answer but hath not performed * * M. Euerard should haue taken notice that the Apostles were not at this time fully ordained Priests though they had been once sent to preach For after his resurrection Ioh. 20. Christ breathed on them the holy Ghost and said Whose soeuer sinnes yee remit c. whereby hee fully indued them with Priestly power Secondly the Apostles at this Supper were Communicants not Ministers of the Sacrament Christ was then the Priest and Minister onely in that action and therefore the Apostles supplying the place of meere Communicants it followeth that whatsoeuer Christ then commanded them he commanded all Receiuers after them * * If neither precept of eating or drinking belong to the Laiety the Laiety are not at all bound to receiue this Sacrament * * Shamefull vntruth and notorious ignorance See the Appendix num 〈◊〉 item Chamierum de Euch. lib. 8. cap. 〈◊〉 de panis distributione quaestio nulla est nec dubitatur omnibus esse fidelibus distribuendum si qui se bene praeparatos offerant * * Waldensis tom 2. cap. 91. fol. 162. edit Salmant 1557. Prolixe probat ex August Cypriano Bernando bibere spiritualitur intelligendum Caietanusin 3. partem Thom. q. 80. verba Christi Ioh. 6. ad literam intelliguntur ad Manducationem spiritualem * * This answer he contradicteth in his last answer infra vid. A. * * From the proper acception of the obiect onely and not the act the corporall and substantiall presence of Christ in the Sacrament cannot be inferred For spiritually and figuratiuely a man may feed vpon Christs body by faith though his body be not present on earth * * See this answer refelled by Vasquez tom 3. in 3. partem disp 116. Nisi manducaueritis c. Haec verba non tantum reseruntur ad rem ipsam sumptam sed ad modum sumendi cam nam manducate bibite si verba propriè vsurâ—…entur cuiuis speciei conuenire non possunt Neque enim sanguis sub specie panis bibi dicitur sicut neque corpus sub specie vinimanducari vt optimè