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faith_n	church_n	council_n	trent_n	4,974	5	10.7107	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85043	The churches and ministery of England, true churches and true ministery. Cleared, and proved, in a sermon / preach'd the 4th of May at Wiviliscombe; before a numerous congregation assembled together to hear the opposition, which had been long threatned to be made that day, by Mr Collier and others of his party, who, with the greatest strength the West would afford them, were present at the sermon. Wherein were these five things undeniably proved: 1. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall saints, is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true church. ... 5. And then, they also must needs be guilty, who forsake true churches and a lawfull ministry, to follow and hear unsent preachers. By Francis Fullwood minister of the Gospel at Staple Fitzpane in the county of Somerset. Before it there is an epistle and preface, shewing the manner, and a narrative subjoyned shewing the substance of the dispute after the sermon, (both which lasted nine hours.) Set forth by the ministers that were at the dispute, and attested under their hands.	Fullwood, Francis, d. 1693.; Darby, Charls.; Collier, Thomas, fl. 1691.	1652 (1652)	Wing F2498; Thomason E671_2; ESTC R202166	72,915	100

Church But as to their outward Call receiv'd in Rome there may be Rome not Antichrist before the Councel of Trent though Antichristian not wholly so more said than you can Answer and that is this That Rome was not so far Antichristian then but that she had some of the Ordinances of the true though not pure and that though she had plaid the Harlot before yet she had not an expresse and absolute divorce till the Councel of Trent When she by a publick deliberate Councel dis-own'd and razed the fundamentals of Religion which she had not done before that that makes me of this mind is Rome we say was not built in a day Reas 1 The Mysterie of iniquity that disease of Rome had its rise and increase Because Rome was not at her height of sin till that Councel before its state and so far its certain that she was not at her height before this deadly and desperate fit of the Councel of Trent as appears 1. Because those grosse fundamentall errours that are now so firmly laid in the Church of Rome by the Councell of Trent and which carrieth so great a stroak in the seating of Which appears because there was never so many and dangerous Heresies decreed before the Councel of Trent Antichrist there were not only complained of declaimed against by private single Ministers both in their Preaching and Printing but disowned by Decrees made against the most dangerous of them by publick Counsels and we do hardly read of any former Counsel that did not onely not establish all the Errors or the grossest of the Errors of the Counsel of Trent but that on the contrary did expressely declare against some one or more of the very worst of them There are six chief or Cardinal Errors of the Church of Rome The Popes supremacie the dividing of the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament allowing the people no Wine the Worshipping of Images the denyall of the Bible to the common people Justification by works and beleeving of Traditions Now these six were never established together by any Councel but the Councel of Trent Ye● 1. The Popes Supremacie was decree'd against by the Councels of Calcedon Affrick Milevi Constantinople and Basil 2. Communicating in both kinds was decreed by the Councel of Basil 3. The Divine Worshipping of Images was forbidden in the second Nicen Councel 4. The Councel of Nice decreed that no Christian should be without a Bible 5. And Thomas an acknowledged writer of the Roman faith in his time denieth Justification by works Ceremoniall or Morall 6. And we were never bound or commanded to beleeve tradition untill the Councel of Trent decreed it Now while Rome declared against or had not by councel decreed any one of these errours sure she was not at such a pitch of heresie or so deeply died with Antichristianism as now she is made by the councell of Trent where they are all and many more ratified as firm as hell can make them yea very much of Antichristianism was brought to Rome with the last of these errours touching tradition which she had not before the councell of Trent for the Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets the Scriptures and what doth weaken the Scripture more and consequently the foundation of the Church more then making tradition contrary to it a compartner with it in the Churches faith especially if we adde the abuse of originals the Greek and Hebrew Text preferring the latin corruption above them which was with such strictnesse and weight imposed by the Councel of Trent and never before The conclusion of the first Argument with the deniall of the vulgar to reade it Now Physicians do not count a disease in its state untill it have reigned to its full height and therefore how to condemn the Church of Rome as wholly Antichristian before Trent councel I cannot see the disease was daily encreasing upon her she seemed not however to be at the height or mortally sick before for from what hath been said the councell of Trent did desperately wound the Church of Rome in three respects 1. In that it did heighten and multiply her damnable errours 2. In that it did draw all the poyson into one entire monster and body of errour and presented it all to the world as the doctrine of the Church 3. In that these were more solemnly seriously deliberately publikely by the pretended representative of the whole Church as the work of years delivered ratified as the perpetuall doctrine of the Church which made the errors rather the errors of Rome Note though many particular persons were against then if all the members of the Church of Rome had held the same apart that is without a councell My second Argument to prove that Rome was not at the Because there were strange mottions towards Reformation in Rome before and somewhat effectuall state or height of this her disease till the Councell of Trent is taken from her strange motions all along after Reformation every age almost complained of abuses in doctrine and discipline and were so urgent and impetuous that they prevail'd to have a councell cal'd for to advise about a Reformation and every councell before this last for ought I can finde did some good and this very wicked councell the councell of Trent it self was occasioned by universall and potent complaints of corruption and errour and such was the power of the better people that the malignant party were forc'd to yeeld to call a counsell on which there lay great hopes being called indeed upon fairest pretences this I would inferre from hence that God had not wholly cast Rome off who doth not leave The conclusion while and where there is any the least appearance of hope of which it seems there was not a little in the Church of Rome till the Councel of Trent A second Argument to prove that there might be something A second Argument that Rome was a true Church till the Councel of Trent at least of Christ in Rome that she was not wholly Antichristian and no true Church till the Councel of Trent is taken from the concessions of most of our Adversaries in this thing the Brownists most of them acknowledge that the Church of Rome had true Baptism and some of them as Johnson c. held they had true Ordination too and such as broke off from Rome had not any need of the Repetition of either Now let us consider could there be true and valid Ordinances in a Church that was true in no respect could there do we think be Ordinances of Christ in a Church that was wholly Antichrist Suppose the Church of Turks should baptize In the Name of the Father Son and holy Ghost were that true Baptism if not then a difference must be made betwixt the Baptism of Rome and that and if so where lies the difference but in the Church and what is the difference but

it consists of one Congregation or more as the Church at Jerusalem Smyrna Thyatira c. and so in the text the Church of God at Corinth So far then we are come having found this Epistle sent to a Church and that a Church of God and the Church of God at Corinth too There is now but one main thing behind but that indeed is a main one namely the qualification of this Church of God at Corinth which is blaz'd before us in the following words to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be Saints These words do plainly intend the matter or members of the Church at Corinth because all others are expressed afterwards with all that in every place c. and also what these members are viz. of two sorts Saints indeed such as are sanctified in Christ Jesus and such as are called to be so though indeed they be not so for many are called and few chosen many are called to be members of the visible but few to be members of the invisible Church for they are not all Israel that are of Israel Or else if you leave out those two little Rom. 9. 6. words to be which the English supplies it may seem to be thus the words to all that are sanctified in Christ Jesus are expounded by these latter words called Saints q. a. to all that are sanctified or should be so that bear the name the form though they want the thing and power of holiness and sanctification one of these two choose which you will must needs be the meaning of the Apostle here which will be most cleer if we but once think to whom and for what end he writes this Epistle to the Church at Corinth and on purpose to reprove them too and that for such gross and vile corruptions as he knew and we confess are even inconsistent with true sanctity faith and holiness though not incompetent to a true Church as is plentifully manifest through his Epistles c. which I shall reduce and set before you under three heads 1. He reprooves them for the breach of the Laws of soberness Sins of the Church of corinth in the two gross and known sins gluttony and drunkenness cap. 11. 21. 2. Of righteousness in their divisions envyings strifes cap. 3. 1 2 3 5. and worse in incest too cap. 5. 1. 3. Of piety and holiness living neither godly righteously nor soberly And first in defect I mean in discipline which appears by their mixt and disorderly fellowship not casting out the lewd and scandalous rout cap. 5. with 11. as also abundantly in excess by schism one despising Paul and another Apollo cap. 3. 4. Heresie denying the resurrection of the body 2 Cor. 15. Idolatry 2 Cor. 6. with to conclude a most egregious prophanation of the holy Table through ignorance gluttony drunkenness c. cap. 11. 21 c. Now doubtless all these great and gross corruptions foreknown to Paul and even just now with this very Epistle about to be reproved by him in thus Church he could not so grosly bewray his flattery or sin so deeply against his knowledge as mean to call them reall Saints all Saints that were the members of it Yea from what hath been said we must conclude 1. That they were not all reall Saints 2. Nor yet all visible Saints though indeed called to be both of these Some true beleevers there were among them some visible Saints not true beleevers those are both likely but this is certain there were many vile and openly prophane and scandalous persons among them and as certain also notwithstanding them Paul salutes them as the Church of God Notwithstanding he fore-knew and intended by this his Epistle to reprove all those grosse and abominable sins you have heard yet here and behold his salutation runs To the Church of God at Corinth CHAP. II. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God FRom the Text thus opened we descend to inferre some seasonable Points which like unto a chain though every link be not fastned immediatly to the first we shall finde have a plain and kindely dependance each upon other and they are these 1. That a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true Church 2. That then the Churches that are now in England are Churches of God and true Churches 3. That then the Ministry of these Churches is the Ministry of God and the true Ministry 4. That then there is a great and heavy sin lying at the door of all suchS as do presume to proach publikely among us without a call who have true Churches and a setled Ministry 5. And then to conclude they also must needs be guilty that forsake true Churches and a lawfull Ministry to follow and hear unsent preachers I shall be as brief and plain as I may upon each of these in order 1. The first of these immediatly depends upon the text explained Scandalous persons in a true Church for if there were prophane and scandalous persons in the Church of Corinth and yet notwithstanding she bore the name of the Church of God it must immediatly and naturally follows that there may be prophane and scandalous persons in the Church of God there may be I say but I mean de facto and not de jure I confess they ought not to be there but if they be they do not unchurch the assembly wherein they are they are the disease and trouble of the Church but not its death indeed such gross and vile corruptions as we have found to have been in the Church of Corinth are as inconsistent with a pure Church as boyls and leprosie with a pure body but yet for all as the soul doth not presently leave and disown the body for any disease except it be mortall so neither doth Christ his body the Church Both the naturall and misticall body may be true though very corrupt and what I have before asserted is undeniable viz. That a mixture of profane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with a Church of God or a true Church for we see in the purest times in the very time of the Apostles themselves as soon as ever the seed was sown tares are mixt as soon as ever the Churches are planted they are thus diseased many corruptions are known to abound in most of them and yet all of them are owned none denied to be Churches of God even by the Apostles If this instance of Corinth be not sufficient consider the Church of Thessalonica Galatia Ephesus Pergamus 2 Thes 2. Thyatyra who had the mystery of iniquity already working who suffered themselves to be soon carried away to another Gal. 2. 3. Gospel who had lost the first love who had those that maintained the doctrine of Baladm with the heresie of the Nicolaitans Revel 2. 3.

and 3. 14. 20. and who lastly suffered the Prophetess Jezabel to seduce the servants of Christ as England too much who yet notwithstanding are called Churches yea and Churches of Christ and by the Apostles themselves commending the good that was in them even while in the mean they reprove the evil that they did or suffered to be done among them And therefore it was doubtless a very gross errour of Barroh 1. Visible Church not a company of true Saints Mat. 13. 37. Mat. 3. 12. and those of the old separation to define the Church to be a company of faithfull people that truly worship Christ and readily obey him Alas the Kingdom of God that is the Ministry sent to gather Churches is a net that gathereth fish both good and bad and the Church is a floor that hath chaff and wheat and a through-separation shall never be attained till the great distinguishing day comes The ground of their errour is this they confound the invisible and visible Church It is most certain I fear that if none may be said to be a true Church but she whose members are all true beleevers there is no true Church in the world this day if there ever have been Besides how senseless it is to make true faith an invisible thing the mark of the visible Church I Again Though the errour be not so gross 't is very dangerous 2. Nor alwaies of visible Saints to say that there cannot be wicked and scandalous persons in a true Church for this doth immediatly tend to schisme and if it raseth the foundation as plainly appeareth of those first Apostolicall Churches well may it ours Alas a particular person may have many failings and gross corruptions powerfull in him and yet all the while I hope be a childe of God even so a Church may be very much degenerate extreamly corrupt and all the while be a Church of God as the Reas Because corruptions strike not the being of a Church Church of Corinth was And the Reason is plain The Reason is Because such corruptions in manners or discipline strike at a Churches benè esse only and not at the being or essence of it as a man with boiles and botches all over his body like unto Job is yet a true man a man a live though he be not so pure and healthy as other men are these indeed do send him forward so far as in them lies to death and the grave however he may not be said to be dead so long as his soul his form abideth in him which all these things cannot touch Quest But this doth invite that doubtfull query viz. touching the form and distinguishing note of a true Church What it is or where it lies Answ To which though I confess I have met with few that write clearly of it I briefly answer That for ought I finde all ancient What and wherein is the form of a visible Church Generally in Ordinances Churches and Counsels before Rome was Antichrist and all the Churches reformed from her Antichristianism together with all Judicious Papists themselves do jointly conclude that the formall difference of the true Church I mean as visible lies in communion in true Ordinances and on occasion farther enlarge and explain the meaning thus that therefore the more or less pure the Ordinances are the more or less pure the Churches are and though the Ordinances of Christ should suffer corruption yet if they may be said but to be true and if there remain but only so much as will carry the Ordinances to be of Christ even so far are the Churches the subjects thereof the Churches of Christ * When two or three are met together in my Name defines a Church Matth. 18. Communion contains the form and essence of a Church in generall communion in Ordinances of God contains the Form of a Church of God and the purer the Ordinances are the purer the Churches and the truer they are the truer the Churches but so long as the Ordinances may be known to be Christs though the havers be very corrupt we must own the Churches to be Christs also But to be a little clearer might I judge here I should conclude Specially in Ministers of the Word that the Ministery of the Word rather then the Sacraments contains the form of a particular visible Church for of such we speake 1. As for Baptism that enters the partie baptiz'd into the universal visible and we must be constitute a particular visible Church before we have right unto much more the enjoyment of the Lords Supper indeed none can be member of a particular Church unles he be baptiz'd so baptism is a negative mark and none can have a right to the Supper of the Lord unless he be a member of a particular Church so that the Lords Supper I mean the actuall administration thereof is a mark redundant But as for the ministry of the word that Therefore the Sacraments are called by Reverend Vsher dependents on the Word hath in it not only a mark but the form and difference of the visible Church of which the Sacraments are but seals and seem to alter and change the nature as the doctrine doth as the same seal is of different value according to the nature and value of the writing to which it is set So that when the doctrine becomes antichristian the seals thereof can scarce be christian though they be counterfet and would be so this may not deny the baptism of Rome to be lawfull baptism yet thus far it goes that the baptism of Rome is no farther christian then their doctrine touching it is so for should they deny the holy T●inity although they did baptise in the Name of the Father Son and holy Ghost I hardly judg it to be lawfull baptisme though haply the old Rule might reach it fieri non debuit factum valet However this is safely concluded that the chief essentiall mark or form of a true particular visible Church consists in a fixt and setled visible fellowship in the ministry of the word of Christ A Church is so called from its gathering together and where is this so plainly seen as in its visible communion in the ministry of the word especially being setled and constant what advantage hath the Jew above the Gentile the Church above the world much every way but chiefly because to them is committed the Oracles of God this is the particular priviledge of the Church of God But a little more distinctly I mean the ministry here on both sides Docens utens The Papists of late deny this but Stapleton one of the chief among them saith The preaching of the Gospel is the proper and the teaching part and the using hearing and receiving part 1. The ministeriall Churches have their mark viz. true doctrine and this especially join'd with the other is very potent to discover to us the true Church For this see Matth. 23. 2 3.

As if Christ should say join your selves to them though wicked and prophane yet they are a true Church But how is that known why their ministry is true they sit in Moses chair But how doth that appear because their word and doctrine is true though their lives be wicked hear them but do a very cleer Note of the Catholick Church provided by lawfull Ministers Princ. dort c. 22. what they say not what they do And answerable to this is our Saviours rule for triall of Prophets By their fruit that is by their doctrine ye shall know what they be whether true or false preachers of the sound and orthodox truth is both a means and a mark a means of gathering and strengthening or confirming or keeping the Churches thereby together Now as the preaching of the word is a means to gather and constitute Churches at first so it being usually occasionall only it is not said to be a mark of the true Church but being gathered by the word and church'd by Baptism the ministery setled and fix'd as was said among them becomes an essentiall mark of the true Church Not only of the teaching which it doth immediatly but of the professing Church also since who can say where the true Church is but where the true doctrine and ministry is fix'd and setled and therefore we shall never read that God did ever divorce any Church though she deserv'd it long Rev. 2. 5. Nulla possit ● schismatius fieri tanta corruptio i. emendatio quanta est schismatis pernities if the doctrine of faith be sound Tert. de praes cap. 6. Si confessio ejus convenit cum Scripturis verus est Christianus sin minus falsus Chrysost before untill he removes his candlestick from them Which is most remarkable in the Jewish Church who while a Church God did not deal so with any Nation neither had the heathen knowledge of his Laws and the Apostles are charged to preach the Gospel to none other and who continued without all doubt to be a visible Church of God untill the course or the ministery is turned from her to the Gentiles then and not till then God cut off the Jew and ingrafted the Gentile 2. There is another chief mark of the visible Church which lieth on the Receivers part I mean as before the Preachers so here the professours of the truth My sheep hear my voice saith Christ that is my reall sheep hear my doctrine really and my visible sheep apparently and visibly so that a people baptized professing the true doctrine of Christ and visibly united in the publike and constant hearing and receiving the doctrine of Christ from the true Ministry are a true Church and are hereby known to be so I say this profession is visibly when the company do openly and visibly own and professe by frequenting the publike Ordinance of hearing the true doctrine and sufficient to discover them a true Church though very corrupt in other regards Now each of these the setled Preaching and constant receiving by publike attending the doctrine of Christ are very good marks of a true particular visible Church and in both together I conceive consists the form of the same viz. in a fixt and constant visible fellowship with God and each other in the sacred Ordinance of preaching and hearing the doctrine of Christ and from this a Church may recede and die two waies being starved to death through a Famine of the Word with the Church of the Jews 2. Or else being poysoned to death by contagious doctrine with the Church of Rome Object 'T is but weak to object That the preaching or hearing of the Word may not be marks or contain the essence of a true Church because these are common to Infidels Answ For the Preaching and hearing of the Word as common with Insidels is occasionall only as it was with Athenians and Paul but as it is an infallible mark of the visible Church 't is as before fixt and setled and in that as occasionall preaching and hearing of the Word is the only proper means of gathering Churches so where it hath so far wrought and prevailed as that it is become fixt and constant with any people it is to me a certain mark of gathered Churches provided alwaies submission hath been made to the Ordinance of Baptism To which I subjoyn this argument That which doth formally constitute or make a member of a Church doth constitute or make a whole Church But profession of the faith doth formally constitute a member of the visible Church and therefore the whole visible Church since the whole here is made of parts of the same nature visibility denominateth the parts and therefore the whole of the visible Church as true faith is essentiall to a member of the Church invisible and profession of that faith to a member of the visible so truth of faith doth constitute the invisible Church and profession thereof a visible Church according to the rule quae est ratio constitutiva partium est etiam constitutiva totius Quest But what shall we think of those Churches then that in time of persecution lose their Ministers so that the publike means of visible profession is gone Answ I answer Such cease not presently to be true Churches for while they own they professe the truth and profession we have shew'd is a good mark on the peoples part 2. While they desire the same they have a right thereto and enjoy this publike communion in its first act though they want the actuall administration and enjoyment of it 3. But considering how much of the form of the Church Ecclefia est unius cōgregationis cujus membra inter se combinantur ordinariè conveniunt uno in loco ad publicū Religionis exercitium Ame. Med. p. 215. 2. 2. consists in this publike communion together I cannot compare such a people better then to a man in a swound in whom for a time the soul the form ceaseth to perform its formall actions though it be not yet severed and gone from the body yet if such a fit as this continue Physicians tell us 't is very dangerous and experience reckons it a sure infallible sign of death even so when Vision fails the People perish CHAP. III. That the Churches that are now in England are Churches of God THe next conclusion doth naturally follow and closely and immediatly depend upon the former for since as we have found a mixture of prophane and scandalous persons with reall Saints is not inconsistent with the Church of God or a true Church Then our Churches that are now in England are Churches of God and true Churches I dare not say they are pure and much lesse perfect yet I Our Churches true Churches doubt not to prove them true Churches but by Churches I mean not though I highly commend that hand of wisedom that made the parochiall difference the Parishes here or at least not as under the notion

not unto the words of the Prophets that prophesie Jer. 23. 16. with 21. to you they make you vain And why I have not sent these Prophets yet they ran I have not spoken to them yet they prophesied A Brief Narration of the heads of that long yet happy Discourse betwixt M. Fullwood assisted sometimes with M. Wood M. Howe c. and M. Collier with the strength of his party in the West upon May 4. 1652. at Wiviliscombe commonly known by the name of Wilscome in Somerset-shire M. FVLLWOOD whose turn it was to preach there that day having ended the Sermon which precedes this Narrative the Adverso party flockt together as neer as they could to the Pulpit and M. Collier in the Name of the rest declared himself unsatisfied touching what had been delivered We desired them to have a little more patience and to attend the stating of the question touching the Ministery which M. How had on purpose provided for our Discourse that day in private they replied again that there was more matter in the Sermon delivered then we should be able to discusse that day they would not yeeld to the motion of the stating the question but with a kinde of violent importunity urg'd that the Minister that had preacht would maintain his doctrine to which at length we yeelded and bid them object having chosen Moderators M. Wood on ours and a Captain on their part Coll. M. Collier began to this purpose I shall go through the Sermon in order the first point was That openly scandalous and prophane persons with true beleevers were not inconsistent with a true Church but this I shall not meddle with Full. I thank you for that Sir yet if you have any thing against it I pray you say on Coll. No I will let that passe and come unto the second which was That the Churches of England are true Churches which I have four things to except against 1. That their constitution was false 2. Their members are false 3. Their Ordinances are false 4. Their Ministery is false Full. I deny them all and first I deny our constitution to be false and would have you prove it Col. You were falsly constituted in Q. Eizabeths daies for you were made true Churches by the civill power the command of the Queen and not by the Ministry of the Word as you should have been Full. That is denied for we were not reclaim'd from Popery by the Queens command without but with the assistance of the godly Protestant Ministery as History makes to appear and you cannot deny Coll. But did not the people turn for fear of the power of the Magistrate and I hope you will not say that the Cavaliers are good Subjects and truly converted to the Parliament because they out of fear subscribe the Engagement Full. To say that all did turn for fear is but a slander and cannot be proved but however I had thought you had spoken all the while of a visible Church do you require reall faith to constitute a visible Church I say that the outward subjection of the Cavaliers is enough to make them visible subjects and the outward profession of Christ is enough to render men externall members of the visible Church * M. Thomas Gorges a very worthy godly and learned Gentleman and Justice of Peace in the County Besides the renoun●ing of Popery and embracing the Protestant Religion was a voluntary act of the whole Land in their Representative the Parliament that sate in the first year of Q. Elizabeths Reign Full. M. Collier hearken to the Gentleman he is a States-man and knows what belongs to History better then you or I. Coll. But you should have been constituted by the Ministery of the Word Full. I have told you we were there were three special acts of grace seen in our conversion from Popery the first was upon the heart of the Queen inclining her Majesty to propagate the true and Protestant Religion the second was in inclining the people to be some what wrought on by the command and influence of the good Queen the last now was seen in making effectuall and perfecting the former by the Protestant Ministry ● Several Protestant Ministers of England before Q. Maries daies fled in the time of persecution and returned in the beginning of Elizabeths reign and preaching all over England reclaim'd the people from Popery With this they seemed to acquiesce urging their great objection no more at all which may hint unto us that the most ready and surest way to foil such adversaries is by dealing with them in their own principles which was M. Fullwoods effectuall course throughout namely to give them what they desire by way of medium and then to wrest the weapon out of their hand or to soil them in their own play thus it was here supposing as they would though they can never prove that our Churches were constituted in Q. Elizabeths time who were indeed reclaimed then but constituted Centuries of years before and that there was no other means to bring a people to outward profession which fouly crosseth their own principles as appeareth afterwards or that the Civill Magistrate is to have no hand in the reformation of a Church which though supposed may not be granted or that to conclude that we cannot be a true Church unlesse we know the means and manner of its constitution which is indeed absurd if the essentiall marks of a true Church can be demonstrated as was in our Churches in the morning Yet with all these one of which they cannot possibly maintain they could not wield their objection the very medium it self viz. that we were not converted or reclaim'd by the Ministery of the Word being flatly false Then they broke off somewhat abruptly from this to Infant-Baptism and being there was nothing objected by any of them afterwards against the two next particulars Our Members and Ordinances we suppose their Discourse of Infant-Baptism was in stead of them Coll. Infant-Baptism is unlawfull Full. Why should we step so large What is Infant-Baptism to the businesse in hand however take your liberty and prove Infant-Baptism if you can to be unlawfull as you say it is Coll. That that hath neither precept nor president in the word is unlawfull but Infant-Baptism hath neither c. therefore it is unlawfull Full. I deny both your Propositions For the first I say it is not unlawfull to go to Taunton and yet you cannot shew me a precept or president in the Word for it Hadridge But M. Fullwood do not you know we speak of Ordinances Full. However M. Hadridge the Proposition is false and deserves correction But to come as near as you would have me I pray tell me what you mean by Precept here whether an expresse command or such a command as fals from the Word by just consequence if you require an expresse command in so many words though I grant that requisite to the substance of an