Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	catholic_n	church_n	visible_a	4,689	5	9.3932	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90624	A vindication of The preacher sent, or A vvarrant for publick preaching without ordination. Wherein is further discovered. 1. That some gifted men unordained, are Gospel preachers. 2. That officers sustain not a relation (as officers) to the universal Church; and other weighty questions concerning election and ordination, are opened and cleared. In answer to two books. 1. Vindiciæ ministrij evangelici revindicatæ or the Preacher (pretendly) sent, sent back again. By Dr. Colling of Norwich. 2. Quo warranto, or a moderate enquiry into the warrantableness of the preaching of gifted and unordained persons. By Mr. Pool, at the desire and appointment of the Provincial Assembly of London. With a reply to the exceptions of Mr. Hudson and Dr. Collings against the epistle to the preacher sent. / Published by Frederick Woodal, minister of the Gospel at Woodbridge in Suffolk. Samuel Petto minister of the GospeI [sic] at Sandcraft in Suffolk.	Woodall, Frederick, b. 1614.; Petto, Samuel, 1624?-1711.	1659 (1659)	Wing P1902; Thomason E1728_2; ESTC R204138	152,808	253

their relation must be towards those among whom their great work lyes Mr. Pool pag. 17. Ans 1. We suppose he intendeth that they are related to heathens as their correlate else he speaketh nothing to the question and then 2. His Major may fairely be denyed The fighting with enemies c. is the principal ground and end why the office of Colonels Captaines and other leaders of Armies were appointed and their principal work yet those enemies to be fought with are not the correlate to the office of Colonels Captaines c. It is a Regiment that is the correlate to the office of a Colonel and a Troop or company that is the correlate to the office of a captain And so heathens to be preached to are not the correlate to the office of the Ministery but particular Churches The instance of Colonels c. sheweth that a mans great work may lye among those that their relation is not toward 3. As to the minor that convertion of heathens and such as are without the Church is a great worke of officers qua gifted may be granted but that it is their principal work qua officers those texts Mat. 28. and Eph. 4. prove not The office of Pastors was not instituted until Churches were constituted had convertion of heathens been their principal work the institution of them before would have been as necessary as then And that officers and others qua gifted are appointed by Christ to preach unto unbelievers this sufficiently manifesteth Christs care for that great work the convertion of sinners though they do not act as officers in their conversion Thus we have answered his argument against this Assertion that Ministers are officers onely to their own congregations the provincial assemblie used divers arguments which we answered and Mr. Pool seeketh to indicate we shall briefly reply to his most material xceptions They objected that we receive members of other congregations to the Sacrament yet the administration of that is a ministerial act and cannot be done but by a Pastor or Teacher Mr. Pool is so disturbed at our answer to this that he saith p. 20. he questions not but any judicious Reader will quickly discern it how we are faln from our own principles and pag. 21. would have all men take notice of that and also that we have through incogitancy precipitated our selves into the gulf of Annabaptisme and he doubts not but we will retract it c. And all this because we say If they perform these acts to any not of their own congregations they do not act as Past ors as officers to them therein Ans We see no ground to retract what we have said in this matter and we think any unprejudiced Reader who shall view our whole answer to their objection Preach Sent. pag. 278 279 280. will apprehend that there is more strength in Mr. Pools flourish of words to dazel the Eyes of the weake then of argument to convince the judicious that we are in an Error To clear the case 1. We professe that it was when we wrote our former book and still is our judgement that the administration of the Sacrament is an act which cannot be done but by a Pastor or Teacher None but an Officer may perform this act 2. Yet we conceive an Officer may administer the Sacrament which is a common Church priviledge unto members of other Churches without being an Officer over them for if any such relation as is between Pastor and the members of his flock did arise upon that act then an obligation unto the mutual duties of the relation must follow also else all in a relation were not bound to the duties of it and who will say that Pastors are to watch over the members of other Churches or that the Lord hath made them overseers of them or that such members are to aford maintenance c. to such Pastors And if they be no Officers over them they cannot be said to act as their Officers And let Mr. Poole and the Reader observe we never said that he who is no Pastor no Officer might act in the administration of the Sacrament but that in administring it to members of other Churches a man doth not act as a Pastor as an Officer to them i. e. in a special sence As Officers in corporations c. may afford some priviledges to such as they are no Officers to which none but such Officers can grant out Or to use the instance Mr. Poole mentioneth pag. 16. with some variation many acts of a Steward of an house in giving entertainment unto strangers cannot he done by any but the Steward except the Lord of the house yet saith Mr. Poole pag. 16. he acts not as a Steward to them whom he entertains whence it is undeniable that there are some acts which none but an Officer can perform wherein he doth not act as an Officer to some objects of them and therefore though none but Officers can administer the Lords Supper yet they may give it to members of other Churches which they are no Officers nor do not act as Officers towards That Rule Quod competit rei qua tali competit omni tali holds true onely in materia necessaria not in materia contingenti and therefore if a Pastor gives the Sacrament to those who are not of his own Church not as their Pastor yet it will not follow that every gifted brother may administer it or that our assertion cuts the s●news of Christian and Church-communion which he insinuates p. 22. That their Argument was against our practice may easily be seen in their Book not against the assertion but as supposed though ungroundedly to be contradicted by our practice And this is enough to answer what he saith pag. 20. 21. 22. and may clearly vindicate us from his aspersion for Anabaptism He replyeth nothing to what we have said Preacher Sent pag. 281. where we have clearly answered their third particular in the several branches and have proved against them that Ministers are called Elders of the people c. There are seven consequences which they said Jus Divin Min. pag. 140. would follow this assertion To our exceptions against the first and second of these Mr. Poole answereth little or nothing what he saith p. 23. is but a repetition of what he had said before which we have already answered In our reply to the third we argue against that position that a man is made a member of a Church by Baptism Mr. Poole telleth us it is none of their assertion that they allow Infants to be born Church-members and make their Church-membership the ground of their Baptism and a pari a heathen converted and professing the faith is a church-member inchoate before Baptism and that this onely they say that the solemn publike and visible way of admission of members into the Church is by Baptism Mr. Poole pag. 23. 24. Ans 1. They said that every Minister by Baptism admitteth into the Catholick visible

Church Jus Div. Min. pag. 139. and Mr. Poole saith pag. 25. in Scripture there is ne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quidem of any other door of admission and cals the contrary a monstrous paradox pag. 28. And how he can deny it to be their assertion or free himself from self-contradiction in these expressions we know not for what difference is there between being made a church-member by Baptism and being admitted into the Church by Baptism and how can one be a church-member before Baptism and yet be admitted into the Church by Baptism especially if there be not any other door of admission How can those that are within the Church already be said without a loss of membership to be admitted into it by any after act surely admission is of those who are without and no members not of those who are within and are church-members The scriptures know no such thing as a being church-members inchoate either they are church-members or not if they be church-members as he confesseth they are before Baptism then they are admitted for membership presupposeth admission 2. As well may we say that men are Officers by a Churches Election before Ordination and onely the solemn admission into the Office or rather exercise of it to be by Ordination as he may assert an admission by Baptism after membership and then the Essence of the call to Office is not in Ordination 3. If Infants church-membership be as he saith pag. 24. the ground of their Baptism then they are visible church-members before their being Baptized for the ground of an action must be visible before acting and so their visible admission into the Church is not by Baptism but before it And in converts profession of faith which he supposeth them church-members by must first be visible and so their visible admission into the Church is antecedaneous to and is not by their Baptism And as publike as their profession is so publike is their visible church-membership or admission into the Church before Baptism As to what followeth pag. 24. 25. we formerly did and still do deny that a Minister ejecting a man justly out of his own Church ejects him juridically out of all other Churches for this see our answer to Dr. Collings Epistle Object If he be not juridically ejected out of other Churches then he is in a capacity of being received into other Churches which what horrid confusion it would introduce c. Mr. Poole pag. 24. Answ It will not follow for that sin which made the ejection just would make another Churches admission unjust Yet mens incapacity to be received by other Churches doth not arise from their being cast out of those Churches but from the want of such qualifications as are perquisite to admission into church-fellowship He grants p. 25. that when a Minister is juridically ejected out of Office in a particular Church by deposition he ceaseth to be an Officer to the Universal Church Whence we infer that if he repenteth and becometh an Officer again he must have a new Ordination or else he may of no Officer become an Officer without Ordination and so Ordination is not Essential to Office That which followeth pag. 25. is but a repetition of what he had said and is answered before That such as are converted from heathenisme may joyn as members to some Church and so be baptized we proved Preacher Sent. pag. 289. he replyeth nothing to the proof of it yet chargeth us for obtruding uncouth notions upon the world without evident proof c. And he that saith pag. 24. they are church-members inchoate before Baptism and who maketh so little a matter of admission into a particular Church should not stumble at this notion And what is said to shew that admission is not by Baptism will not be far from a proof of it Our Arguments Preacher Sent. pag. 292. plainly shew that their assertion runs them upon Anabaptism Mr. Poole pag. 26. 27. giveth a double reason against it 1. That an excommunicate person ordinarily is a church-member though a diseased member 2 Thes 3. c. 2. Though his Baptism ceaseth at present actually and really as to all the actual priviledges of it so ceaseth that while he repents not he is to be looked upon after a sort as an unbaptized person yet when he doth repent and readmit himself to the Church he needs no new Baptisme forasmuch as God is pleased to impute to him his former Baptism and the Church accepts of it c. Answ 1. Anabaptism unavoidably followeth upon their assertion thus he that ceaseth to be a member of the visible Church his Baptisme ceaseth say they Jus Divin Min. pag. 146. But he that is excommunicate ceaseth say they to be a member of the visible Church for they tell us excommunication ejecteth out of that Church Jus Divin Min. pag. 139. Ergo He that is excommunicate his Baptism ceaseth Ergo If he be readmitted he must be rebaptized or else be in the Church unbaptized Surely Mr. Poole will not say that one may be ejected out of and yet remain a member of the Church for it is a contradiction to say that one is out of and yet in the Church at the same time and contrary to 1 Corin. 5. 12. which proveth that those who are without are not within yet he hath no other way to save the London Ministers from the dint of the foregoing conclusions To help them out of this Laborinth Mr. Poole telleth us that an excommunicate person is a church-member still but this is not to defend but to contradict them whose cause he undertaketh to to plead for they tell us an excommunicate person is ejected out of the Church and Mr. Poole saith he is a member of the Church still This therefore might suffice for the defence of what we have said but we shall add a few words 2. It is the judgement of many that the withdrawing mentioned 2 Thes 3. ver 6. 14. vastly differeth from excommunication because after the one a man is to be deemed as a brother and after the other he is to be accounted as a heathen and a Publican Mat. 18. ver 17. and if so this is no proof that excommunicate persons are church-members seeing the Text speaketh nothing of excommunication but onely of withdrawing 3. We observe his halting here he doth not say an excommunicate person alwayes but ordinarily is a member as if excommunication did sometimes make a man cease to be a church-member but ordinarily not which there is no syllable in Scripture for and much against it Mat. 18 v. 17. excommunicate persons are to be deemed as heathens and Publicans Ergo Not as church-members That such as are excommunicate for blasphemy denying Christ to be the Messias or renouncing some such grand Article of faith should still be a church-member is strange doctrine yet this must be or else his Argument pag. 26. is nought for it may be said He who is under a Church

p. 2. pag. 432. Trelcatius Instit Theol. l. 2. pag. 204 205. Duae sunt causae cur inter suum Christi baptismum distinguat Pri●r ut notet differentiam inter baptismum extrenum aquae baptismum internum spiritus altera ut distinguat inter personam officium suum inter personam ●fficium Christi c. Qui patris de discrimine utriusque baptismi egerunt aut de circumstantiis modo patefactionis Christi egerunt tantum non de substantia aut efficatia ut Origines Justi●us Nazianzenus Chrysost Cyrillus aut de baptismo sive externo Johannis sive interno Christi seperatim ut Basilius Tertul. Cypria Hieron aut humanitas a veritatis trumite aberrarunt ut Agustinus pag. 206. in answer to the Papists objection from that very place Acts 19. v 3. 4. 5. he useth these words ex ambigua significatione vocas baptismi nihil sequitur Nec enim baptismus a quam solum significat sed aut re baptismi aut ipsam Johannis doctrinam Mr William Lyford in his Apologie for the publike Ministry by way of reply to this very argument from Apollo's preaching without ordination pag. 26. useth these words The baptism of Iohn and of Christ distinguished Acts. 19. v. 4. 5. are not two baptismes of water but onely one with water which is called Iohns baptism Acts 19 3. and the Lord● baptisme Acts 8. 16. But Christs baptisme in distinction from Iohns was the pouring forth of the holy Ghost upon the Apostles and others in those daies as St Peter does expound it Acts 11. 15. 16. c. From all this it is evident that although some Protestant writers as Calvin Piscator Spanhemius and others have strongly asserted the baptism of Iohn and Christ to be ●●e same as to the substance and essence o● them yet even they and many others before them as Cyprian Tertull. have asserted that the baptisme of Iohn and Christ were distinguished at least in Circumstances secundum modum patefactionis Christi And the aforementioned Mr. Lyford though he was against preaching without ordination yet granteth the baptism of Iohn and Christ to be distinguished in that very place which we alledge for it Acts 19. 4. 5. Wollebius Theol. pag. 126. saith there is baptismusfluminis seu aquae luminis seu doctrinae Mat. 3 11 Mat 22 25 Acts 18 25 And Scharpius Symphon pag 37. saith baptism is taken Synecdochi●e cum non tantum pro externo baptismo sed etiam pro tota doctrina sumitur ita in baptisma Johannis baptisati dicuntur ita Mat. 21. 25. baptisma Ioh. quod fuit pars Ministerii pro toto ministerio vel ut sigi●●um pro tota doctrina obsignata sumitur And thus our assertion may divers waies hold true for Iohns water baptism Mat. 3. 11. is distinguished from Christs baptism with the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit Acts 1● 5. And the baptism of Iohn i. e. his doctrine is distinguished from the baptism of Christ i. e. from those doctrines which may be called the baptism of Christ wherein are contained many things about Gospel Churches Gospel Officers and Ordination c. which neither Apollo nor any other could know by the baptism of Iohn the revelation of them being in order of time after Iohns baptism and this difference is sufficient to cleare our argument We neither deny as the Papists do that grace might be conserred by the Spirit of Christ in or with the baptism of Iohn nor do we assert as the Papists do that all who were baptized with the baptism of Iohn ought to be baptized again with the baptism of Christ Nor are we yet perswaded that those Acts 19. were rebaptized with water-baptism though Musculus and learned Za●chy and others who were neither Papists nor Socinians were of that judgement as we say with Dr. Ames Bell. Enerv. t. 3. l. 2. p. 297. Si rebaptizati fuerunt non fuit hoc propter imperfectionem baptismi Johannis sed propter aberrationem scioli alicujus a quo baptizati fuerunt Yet we are not perswaded that v. 5. is a continuation of Pauls narration of Iohns baptism but we shall not for the present contend about that We shall add but this who hath most cause to be ashamed we for bringing such an argument or Dr. Collings for giving such a reply let the Reader judge The residue of his book is spent about the three Scriptures which we bring for Election viz. Acts 1. Acts 6. and Acts 14. and the peoples ability to choose Iohn 10. we shall reply very briefly 1. As to Acts 1. v. 15. 23. how much it speaketh for the peoples Election may be seen Preacher Sent. pag. 1●7 c. In answer to his objection we say 1. Himselfe useth a like argument from a greater Officer to a lesse Vind. Minister Evang. p 31 32. for ordination he alleageth Acts 13. 3. and useth these words Their being Apostles makes but the argument afortiori better If God in his wisdom thought it fit that his Apostles that were most eminently gifted with the holy Ghost should yet be solemnly set a part to the work of the Ministry how much more requisite is it for those who hath no such gifts and indowments We may now turne his reply to us Vind. Revind pag. 122. upon himselfe and say because all the people of a countrey may choose Parliament men by the Law it will not follow that they may ch●se Justices of the peace c. and the answer is as strong against his argument from Acts 13. 3. for Ordination as it can be against our Argument from Acts. 1. 23. for Election and so either his own argument must be nought or else ours is good for both stand upon the same foot we may put in Election for Ordination and use his own words thus If God in his wisdom thought it fit that his Apostle that was most eminently gifted and indued with the Holy Ghost should be chosen by the people how much more requisite is it for Pastore and Teachers who have no such gifts and indowments as to his instance we say The people in choosing Parliament men to make them Lawes either choose Justices of peace who are established by their Lawes or abridge themselves of a liberty to choose them 2. If 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should be translated and two stood as he rendreth it pag. 122 it must be by Gods direction else it would not have been followed with Gods approbation in that after Election v. 24. 26. neither could they have prayed in faith v. 24. that the Lord would shew whether of these two he had chosen if that act v. 23. had not given them a knowledge that one of these two and not any other of the company should be chosen which must be by some visible tokens thereof And if God witnessed this to them mediately we know not of any other meanes besides the Election of the people which we