Selected quad for the lemma: faith_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
faith_n	catholic_n	church_n	visible_a	4,689	5	9.3932	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A51177	The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.	Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.; Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.; Manchester, Henry Montagu, Earl of, 1563?-1642.	1641 (1641)	Wing M2472; ESTC R6266	23,462	40

THE COPPY OF A LETTER Sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his Father the Lord Privie Seale with his answere thereunto ❧ Also a second answere to the same Letter by the Lord Faukland Imprinted 1641. My Lord AFter much debate concerning the fittest expression of my duty to your Lordship whether I ought by silence seeke to suspend the beliefe of the declaration of my self I have made here or by a cleere profession of it assure you of what I may onely feare to present you with as apprehensive of a mis-interpreted affection I concluded what was most satisfactory to my first and immediate duty to God was most justifiable to my second and derivative to Nature therefore I resolved so soone to give you this ingenuous account of my selfe The greatest part of my life capable of distinction of Religions hath been employ'd in places and conversant with persons opposite to the faith I was bred in therefore it had been strange if naturall curiositie without any spirituall provocation had not invited mee to the desire of looking with mine own eyes upon the foundation I stood upon rather there holding fast blindfold by my education to agree to be carried away alwayes after it insensible of all shocks I met to unfasten me and besides I was solicited with the reproaches Protestants press upō Catholikes that they blindly believe al the impostures of the Church without any illumination of their judgements this me thought enjoyn'd the cleerest information of my self of the differences betweene us I could propose to my capacity So at my last journey into Italy I did employ all my leasure to a more justifiable settlement of my belief as I then imagined to a cōfirmation of my judgment in what had been introduced by my birth and education I began with this consideration that there were two sorts of questions betweene the Catholikes and Protestants the one of right or doctrine the other of fact or story as this whether Luther were the first erector of the Protestants Faith whether it had a visible appearance of Pastors and Teachers before his time I resolved to begin my enquiry with the matter of fact for these Reasons first because they were so few and so comprehensible by all capacities and the controversies of doctrine intricate and so many as they required much time and learning for their disquisition onely and I found my self unprovided of both those Requisitions for this undertaking and for the decision of the other I needed not much presumption to believe my selfe a competent Judge when it consisteth onely in a perusall of authentike testimonies Secondly I considered that there was no one part of controverted Doctrine whereon all the rest depended but that this one question of fact was such as the decision of it determined all the rest for if Luther could be proved to be the Innovator of the Protestants faith it was necessarily evicted of not being the true ancient and Apostolicall Religion therefore I began with this enquiry which Protestants are bound to make to answer this Objection to find out an existence of some Professors of the Reformed Doctrine before Luthers time for finding the Catholikes were not obliged to prove the Negative it was my part to prove to my selfe the Affirmative that our Religion was no Innovation by some Pre-existence before that but in the perusall of all the Stories or Records Ecclesiasticall or Civill as I could chuse I could finde no ancienter a dissention from the Roman Church then Waldo Wickliffe and Huffe whose cause had relation to the now-professed Protestancie so as I could find an intervall of about 800 yeers from the time that all Protestants confesse an unitie with the Church of Rome downe to those persons without any apparent profession of different faith to answer my selfe in this point I read many of our Protestant Authours who treated of it and I found most of them reply to this sence in which I cite here one of the most authentike Doctor Whitaker in his Controversie 2. 3. pag. 479. Where they aske of us where our Church was heretofore for so many ages Wee answer that it was in secret solitude that is to say it was concealed and lay hid from the sight of men and further the same Doctor Chap. 4. pag. 502. Our Church alwayes was but you say it was not visible doth that prove that it was not No for it lay in a solitary concealment To this direct sence all the answers were that ever I could meet with to this objection I repeat no more those places being so positive to our point this confession of Invisibility in our Church for so many ages did much perplex me it seemed even to offend naturall Reason such a derogation from Gods power or providence as the sufferance of so great an ecclipse of the light of this true Church and such a Church as this is describ'd to be seeming to mee repugnant to the mayne reason why God hath a Church upon earth to be a conserver of the doctrine of Christ and his precepts and to convey it from age to age untill the end of the World therefore I applyed my study to peruse such Arguments as the Catholikes brought for the proof of the necessity of a continuall visibility of the true Church down from the Apostles time in all ages and appearance of Doctors teaching and administring the Sacraments in proof of this I found they brought many provisoes of Scripture but this Text most litterall of the fourth of the Ephesians Christ hath placed in his Church Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints till we meet in the unitie of the faith and next the discourse upon which they inferre this necessary visible succession of the Church seem'd to me to be a most rationall and convincing one which is to this effect Naturall reason not being able to proportion to a man a course that might certainly bring him to a state of supernaturall happinesse and that such a course being necessary to mankind which otherwise would totally faile of the end it was created for there remayned no other way but that it must be proposed unto us by one whose authoritie wee could not doubt of and that in so plain a manner as even the simplest might be capable of it as well as the Learned This work was performed by our Saviour from whose mouth all our faith is originally derived But this succeeding age not being able to receive it immediate from thence it was necessarie it should be conveyed unto them that lived in it by those that did receive it from Christs own mouth and so from age to age untill the end of the World and in what age soever this thread of doctrine should be broken it must needs be acknowledged for the reason above mentioned that the light which should convey mankind through the darknesse of this world was extinguisht and wee left without a guide to inevitable ruine which cannot stand with Gods

providence and goodnesse which Saint Augustine affirmes for his opinion directly in his Booke de vtil cred. cap. 16. saying if divine providence does preside over our humane affairs it is not to be doubted but that there is some authority constituted by the same God upon which going as upon certain steps we are carried to God Nor can it bee said hee meant the Scripture onely by these steps since experience shewes us by the continuall altercation about the right sense of severall of the most important places of it that what is contained there cannot be a competent rule to mankind which consisteth more of simple then learned men and besides the Scripture must have supposed to have beene kept in some hands whose authority must beget our acceptance of them which being no other then the Church of all ages we have no more reason to beleeve that it hath preserved the Scripture free from all corruption then that it hath maintained it selfe in a continua●● 〈…〉 isibility which Saint Augustine concludeth to be a marke of the true Church in these words in his booke contra Cecill 104. The true Church hath this certain signe that it cannot bee hid therefore it must bee knowne to all Nations but that part of the Protestant Donatist is unknown to many therefore cannot bee the true No inference can be stronger then from hence that the concealment of a Church disproves the truth of it Lastly not to insist upon the allegation of the sense of all the Fathers of the Church in severall ages which seemed to mee most cleere that which in this cause weighed much with mee was the Confession and Testimony of the approved Doctors themselves of the Protestant Church as Hooker in his booke of Eccles. Pol. pag. 126. God always had and must have some visible Church upon earth And Doctor Field the first of Eccle. cap. 10. It cannot bee but those that are the true Church must be knowne by the Profession and further the same Doctor saies how should the Church bee in the World and no body professe openly the saving truth of God And Doctor White in his defence of the way cap. 4. pag. 790. The providence of God hath left monuments and stories for the confirmation of our Faith and I confesse truly that our Religion is false if a continuall descent of it cannot be demonstrated by these monuments downe from Christs time this appeareth unto mee a direct submission of themselves to produce those apparent testimonies of the publique profession of their faith as the Catholikes demand but this I could never read nor know of any that performed For D. White himself for want of proof of this is fain to say in another place in his way to the Church p. 520. The Doctors of our faith have had a cōtinual succession though not visible to the world so that he flies from his undertaking of a conspicuous demonstration of the monuments of his faith to an invisible subterfuge or a beleefe without appearance for hee saith in the same Book in an other place pag. 4. All the externall government of the Church may faile so as a locall and personall succession of Pastors may be interrupted and pag. 40● We doe not contest for an externall succession it suffiseth ●hat they succeed in the Doctrine of the Apostles and faithfull who in all ages did embrace the same truth so as here hee removeth absolutely all externall proofes of succession which before hee consented to be guided by I cannot say I have verbally cited these Authors because I have translated these places though the Originall be in English yet I am sure their sense is no way injured and I have chosen to alleadge Doctor Whites authority because he is an Orthodox professor of the Protestant Church the reflection of the state of this question wherein I found the Protestants defend themselves onely by flying out of sight by confessing a long invisibility in their Church in apparence of Pastors and Doctors left mee much loosened from the fastnesse of my professed Religion but had not yet transported me to the Catholike Church for I had an opinion that our Divines might yet fill up this vacuitie with some more substantiall matter then I could meet with so I came back into England with a purpose of seeking nothing so intentively as this satisfaction and to this purpose I did covertly under another mans name send this my scruple to one in whose learning sufficiencie I had much affiance in these termes Whether there was no visible succession to be proved in the Protestant Church since the Apostles time downe to Luther and what was to be answered to that objection Besides the confession of invisibilitie for so many ages to this I could get no other answer but that the point had been largely and learnedly handled by Doctor White and many others of our Church upon this I resolved to informe my selfe in some other points which seemed to mee unwarrantable and superstitious in the Ceremónies of the Church of Rome since I had such an inducement so little satisfaction in a point which seemed to mee so essentiall and in all these scruples I found mine owne mistake in the belief of the Tenets of the Roman Church gave me the onely occasion of scandall not the practice of their doctrine and to confirme mee in the satisfaction of all them I found the practice and authority of most of the ancient Fathers and in the Protestant Refutation of these Doctrines the Recusation of their Authorities as men that might erre so that the question seemed then to me whether I would rather hazard the erring with them then with the later Reformers which consequently might erre also in dissenting from them since then my resolution of reconciling my selfe to the Roman Church is not lyable to any suspition of too forward or precipitate resignation of my selfe my judgment may perchance be censured of seducement my affection cannot bee of corruption Upon these Reasons I did soone after my returne last into England reconcile my selfe to the Roman Catholike Church in the belief and convincement of it to be the true ancient and Apostolicall Church by her externall marks and her internall objects of faith and doctrine and in her I resolve to live and die as the best way to salvation when I was in England I did not studie dissimulation so dexterously as if my fortune had read it to me nor doe I now professe it so desperatly as if it were my fortunes Legacie for I doe not believe it so dangerous but it may recover for I know the Kings wisdome is rightly informed that the Catholike Faith doth not tend to the alienation of the subject it rather super-infuseth a reverence and obedience to Monarchie and strengtheneth the bands of our obedience to our naturall Prince and his grace and goodnesse shall never finde any other occasion of diversion of them from the naturall and usuall exercise of themselves upon

to say he understands them not and good Saint Austin finding that from controversies in Religion there came no other fruit but indeterminata luctatio said with sorrow Why do we strive about our Fathers Will Nos fuimus fratres and our Father is not dead intestate but hath left his Will and Testament in writing let it be followed and all controversies will soon be ended Flatter not your self Walter the Remonstrance you make shews that the resignation you made of your selfe to the church of Rome was precipitate then the resolution to live and die there desperate yet you give some hopes when you say nor do you now so desperatly professe as if it were your fortunes legacie for you do not believe it so dangerous but it may recover The Kings benignitie and goodnesse is always to interpret the best but know that his Majestie hath a better opinion of those who are bred such then of those who become such by relapse nor am I willing to apprehend any change of your dutie yet take this for a caveat that commonly all changes follow change of faith I never travelled of you till now and it is with a great deal of paine I thought you should have wept over me when Nature had called for her due but you have prevented me And yet my sonne you may yet returne to me but I shall never goe to you in this way nor had I ever gone so far into this question but to fetch you again my sonne otherwise a lost child Thus as your Letter began so do I end after much debate concerning a fit expression of my selfe whether was better by not writing to shew my dislike or by long writing to labour your recovery this last was most satisfactory to my conscience though the other more agreeable to nature displeased I have therefore resolved as you see to give you this answer and I pray God that he may blesse you and mee so in it that my pen may have the fruit my heart wishes Your Loving Father Manchester My Lord Faulklands Answer A Letter of Master Mountagu justifying his change of Religion being dispers'd in many copies I was desired to give my opinion of the Reasons and my reason if I misliked them having read and consider'd it I was brought to be perswaded First because having beene sometimes in some degrees mov'd with the same inducements I thought that what satisfied me might possibly have the same effect upon him Secondly because I being a Layman a youngman and an ignorant man I thought a little reason might in likelihood work more from my pen then more from theirs whose profession age and studies might make him suspect that it is they are too hard for him and not their cause for his Thirdly because I was very desirous to doe him service not onely as a man and a Christian but as one whom all that know him inwardly esteeme of great parts and I am desirous somewhat to make up my great want of them by my respects to those that have them and as an impartiall seeker of Truth which I trust he is and I professe my selfe to be and so much for the cause of this paper I come now to that which it opposeth First then whereas he defends his search I suppose hee is rather for that to receive prayse then to make apologies all men having cause to suspect that gold which were given with this condition that the Receiver should not try it by any touchstone Secondly Hee saith that there being two sorts of questions the one of right or doctrine the other of fact or story as whether the Protestants faith had a visible appearance before Luther hee resolved to begin his enquiry with the matter of fact as being sooner to be found because but one easier to be cōprehended to this I answer by saying that if they would not appeal from the right Tribunall or rather rule which is the Scripture those many might easier be ended then this one we building our faith onely upon plain places and all reasonable men being sufficient judges of what is plain but if they appeal to a consent of Fathers or Councels whereof many are lost many not lost not to bee gotten many uncertain whether Fathers or no Fathers and those which we have being too many for almost any industry to read over and absolutely for any memory to remember which yet is necessary because any one clause of any one Father destroys a consent and being besides liable to all the exceptions which can bee brought against the Scriptures being the rule as difficulty want of an infallible interpreter and such like and being denied to have any infallibilitie especially when they speak as witnesses which a consent of them never doth against us by one party which the Scripture is allow'd to have by both then I wonder not if he think such a way so uncertain and so long that he was willing to chuse any shorter cut rather then travell it Neither doe I believe this to be so short or so concluding as he imagines for if he consider the large extent of Christian Religion so that wee know little from any indifferent Relator of the opinions of the Abissines so great a part of Christendome if he consider the great industry of his church in extinguishing those whom they have call'd Heretikes and also their Books so that wee know scarce any thing of any of them but from themselves who are too partiall to make good Historians if hee consider how carefully they stop mens mouthes even those of their own with their Indices Expurgatorii it will then appeare to him both a long work to seek and a hard one to finde whether any thought like Luther in all ages and that hee concludes very rashly who resolves there was none because he cannot finde any since they might have bin visible in their time yet not so to us for men are not the less visible when they are so for not being after remembred as a man may be a Gentleman though he know not his pedidigree so that as I will not affirm that there were always such because I cannot prove it so neither ought they to make themselves sure there were none without they could prove that which is impossible and therefore no argument can be drawn from thence and if it could be proved that such a no-wayes erring church must at all times be I had rather believe that there were still such though wee know them not which may be true then that theirs is it which in my opinion cannot Thirdly He says hee could finde no one point of controverted doctrine whereupon all the rest depended but that this one question of fact was such as the decision of it determined all the rest To this I answer that the question of the infallibilitie of the Pope at least of those who adhere to him which they call the church is such a one as if determin'd must determine