purpose A. D. §. 1. As this one infallible and entire faith is necessary to saluation to all sorts of men as well vnlearned as learned so we must say that almightie God Qui vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire who would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of truth hath for proofe that this of his part is a true will prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith and that the onely cause why any man misseth of the true faith is either because he doth not seeke out and find this rule and meanes or hauing found it he will not vse it and in all points submitting his owne sense selfe opinion and proper iudgement obediently yeeld assent vnto it as the nature of diuine faith and the dutie of euery Christian bindeth him to do This is proued because if Almightie God hath a true will of his part to leade all men to this happie end of eternall saluation as it may be plainly proued that he hath out of Scripture and Fathers he must needs prouide them sufficient meanes by which it may at least be possible for them to attaine that end For we neuer say that God hath a will to do any thing vnlesse he do either absolutely worke the thing or at least prouide meanes sufficient by which it is possible to be done But vnlesse there be such a rule or meanes prouided by which euery one learned and vnlearned may attaine to this one infallible and entire faith of which I haue spoken before there are not sufficient meanes prouided by which it is possible for all men to come to saluation sith as I proued without that faith it is vnpossible for any one to come to saluation Therefore we must needs say that Almightie God hath prouided this rule or meanes by which euery man euen the most vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed in matters of faith A. W. Whether your comparison by which you propound this point be of likenesse or equalitie I see not what agreement the one part can haue with the other But to let that passe because it is of no great moment I am now earnestly to request all men Protestants and Papists who will vouchsafe to reade my answer that they would giue me leaue to examine this treatise by the light of true reason and themselues take a little paines more then ordinary in the vnderstanding of it We are then first of all to remember that the summe of this treatise was propounded by the author himselfe in his preface to this effect That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commendeth to vs is without doubt to be holden for the true faith and that the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commendeth to vs is that faith Now then these two points being proued that which was intended is dispatched and either of these failing the matter is still in question For proofe of the former proposition or sentence he disputeth on this maner That we must needs admit an infallible authoritie in the Catholicke Church by reason whereof euery one must learne of it onely what is the true faith Now he addresseth himselfe to the proofe of this last proposition which as I shewed in my answer to the Preface is the assumption of his second Syllogisme and thus he reasoneth If God haue not prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith vnlesse we admit such an authority then we must needs admit it But God hath not prouided any rule or meanes vnlesse we admit such an authoritie Therefore we must needs admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church The ground of the proposition or maior is this that God will haue all as well vnlearned as learned to be saued Which being vnderstood I answer concerning the consequence of the proposition that it is false I will be as plaine as I can that euery one may vnderstand me If his meaning be that we must admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church because without it there are no sufficient meanes of saluation for euery particular learned and vnlearned man I deny the consequence of his proposition For neither is it necessary to saluation that a man should be infallibly instructed in all points questions doubts of faith and God neuer had any purpose that euery particular man should be affoorded that meanes of saluation I will not spend time nor labor in this point it may be proued sufficiently by this his argument For these means he imagineth of a visible Church alwayes continuing are not such but that before the comming of our Sauiour and since also many thousands haue liued and died which could neuer haue any suspition or thought of such a Church Till it pleased our Sauiour to send his Apostles with a generall commission the knowledge of him was shut vp within the land of Iewry or at the most was heard of but in the countries neare adioyning After the commission giuen it asked some time for the Apostles to disperse themselues ouer the world and in that time many thousands must needs die without the knowledge of our Sauiour Christ But what speake I of the beginnings of the Gospell How many countries are there in which no steps of the Gospell haue bene to which no little sound of it hath come for many hundred yeares Austin sayth that in his time there were many nations to whom the Gospell had not then bene preached yea it was commonly held amongst the auncient writers that the day of iudgement should speedily ensue after the Gospell had bene preached in all the world If you vrge that place of Timothie that God wil haue all men to be saued you shall be answered by one of your owne side that all signifies all kind of men not euery man of euery kind of euery kind many They are called all saith Fulgentius because God saueth them out of euery nation condition age out of euery prouince of euery language So doth Austin expound that text in diuers places though hee bring also some other interpretations but all against the conceits of men that would haue all taken for euery one The like exposition he giueth of that in the Gospell I wil draw all to me All kinds of men in all languages in all ages in all degrees of honor in all diuersities of dispositions and wits in all professions of arts lawful and profitable c. Holkot not the meanest of your school-men maketh this sense of those words God will haue all men to be saued that is saith he God hath made all men capable
Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae
rule of faith Chap. 9. That priuate spirit cannot be this rule Chap. 10. That the doctrine or teaching of the true Church of Christ is the rule or meanes wherby all men must learne the true faith Chap. 11. That this true Church of Christ of which we must learne the true faith is alwayes to continue without interruption vntill the worlds end Chap. 12. That this same Church must alwayes be visible Chap. 13. How we should discerne or know which company of men is this true visible Church of which we must learne true faith Chap. 14. That those Notes or markes which heretikes assigne to wit true doctrine of faith and right vse of Sacraments be not sufficient Chap. 15. That these foure Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholique Apostolique be good markes whereby men may discerne which is the true Church Chap. 16. That these foure markes agree onely to the Romane Church That is to say to that company of men which agreeth in profession of faith with the Church of Rome § 1. That the Romane Church onely is One. § 2. That the Romane Church onely is Holy § 3. That the Romane Church is onely Catholique § 4. That the Romane Church is onely Apostolique Chap. 17. The conclusion of the whole discourse viz. That the Romane Church is the onely true Church of Christ of which all men must learne the one infallible entire faith which is necessary to saluation And that the Protestants Congregations cannot be this true Church THE PREFACE BEing moued by some friends to conferre with one of indifferent good iudgement and of no ill disposition of nature though verie earnest in thaet religion which he did professe I was desirous to do my best endeuors to let him plainely see that the Catholique Romane faith was the onely right A. W. Being requested by some friends to maintaine the truth of Christian religion professed amongst vs against the antichristian cauils of this popish proctor I thought it my best course first to answer in generall to the whole substance of his booke and then to examine euerie particular Chapter In the former I first consider his drift and scope then how he proues that which he intends His drift is to shew That the Catholique Romane faith is the onely right wherein he craftily begs that which is in question That the Romane faith is the Catholique faith which himselfe propounds as the second thing to be proued by him That those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church Neither can it be auouched by the authority of anie ancient writer or by any good reason that it is lawfull or fit to ioyne the terme Catholique as Papists take it to any particular Church whatsoeuer There was great strife about the Catholike Church vpon earth in Austins time which the Donatists would haue confined to Affrica but the true Christians freed it from that bondage and bounded it with no other limits then the compasse of the whole world Let the Papists shew if they can that in this whole cōtrouersie the Catholique Church was euer restrained or coupled to anie one Citie Dioces Prouince or Nation as it is now by them to Rome If they cannot let them acknowledge and renounce this their noueltie A. D. §. 3. For which purpose I did chuse to let passe disputes about particular points and in generall to shew First that it is necessary to admit an infallible authoritie in the true Cathòlique Church by reason whereof euery one is to learne of it onely which is the true faith of Christ Secondly that those onely which professe the Románe faith are the true Catholique Church The which hauing proued I did consequently conclude that the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth cōmend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith A. W. Indeed the best and onely way to auow the doctrine of the Romish Church is to leade men hoodwinckt in ignorance of the particular points it holds many whereof are so palpably false that he that knowes them will easily be perswaded to abhorre them But let vs see what you shew in generall Thus you dispute The faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commends vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commends vnto vs is the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commends vnto vs. Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commends vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith The conclusion of this syllogisme is set downe by you in plaine words there The which hauing proued I did consequently cōclude that the faith c. The proposition or major is not exprest no more is the assumption or minor but instead of them you haue deliuered the proofes of them thus to be concluded First for the proposition at those words That it is necessary to admit an infallible c. If it be necessary to admit an infallible authoritie in the true Catholique Church by reason whereof euery one is to learne of it onely which is the true faith of Christ then the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commends vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But it is necessarie to admit such an authoritie in the true Catholike Church Therefore the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholike Church commends vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Onely the assumption of this syllogisme is propounded the rest omitted The proofe of your principall assumption is at those words That those only which professe the Romane c. And as in the former syllogisme the assumption onely is exprest the rest vnderstood Thus If those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholike Church then the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commends vnto vs is the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholike Church commends vnto vs. But those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church Therefore the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commends vnto vs is the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commends vnto vs. We see now what his drift is how he proues that he intends and by what reason he confirmes his proofe It remaines that we consider in general to what part of his proofe or confirmation thereof euery Chapter in his Discourse appertaineth In the 4. first Chapters he layeth certaine grounds concerning faith in the 13. following he disputeth the matter propounded First he shewes the necessitie of faith Chap. 1. then he deliuereth three properties required to true faith That it is one Ch. 2. That it is infallible Chap. 3. That it is entire Chap. 4. In his dispute the twelue former Chapters from the beginning
of the fifth to the end of the sixteenth containe the antecedent or first part of his reason and the proofes thereof The seuenteenth addeth and enforceth the maine conclusion The assumption of the second syllogisme That it is necessary to admit c. is handled from the fourth Chapter to the tenth The proposition of the first syllogisme That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith is proued by another reason from the ninth Chapter to the thirteenth The assumption of the third syllogisme That those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church is debated from the twelfth Chapter to the seuenteenth This is the generall frame of the whole Treatise as farre as I am able to conceiue of it Now let vs examine the truth therof Wherein that I may proceed the more orderly and plainely I wil first speake a word or 2. of some matters that seeme fit to be vnderstood ere I answer particularly to the seueral propositiōs What the diuerse significations of this word faith are and how many sorts of faith there be I will inquire as farre as it is needfull for this Treatise in my answer to the first Chapter onely we are now to know that by faith and beliefe this Papist vnderstands the matter or doctrine which is to be beleeued This appeares in the rest of this Preface and namely at these words Fourthly because these few plaine points c as also euery where in his Treatise though sometimes as I will shew in due place he take it otherwise The like I say of the word Church which being diuersly taken in Scripture is here to be restrained to a certaine cōpany of men vpon earth as this Author himself shewes in this Preface at the place aforenamed Now then to answer directly to his principall syllogisme I deny the whole antecedent therof Because it takes some things for a knowne truth which are either false or at least full of doubt As for example that the true Catholique Church is a company of men vpon earth whereas who knowes not that the saints that haue bene are and shal be in all ages are members of the true Catholique Church which consists of them all ioyntly That all the seuerall congregations which hold the true doctrine of the Gospell are one and the same Church A doctrine in his meaning without anie warrant of Scripture as it shall be shewed hereafter That there is authoritie in a certaine company of men vpō earth to require that whatsoeuer they deliuer be held for an vndoubted truth vnder paine of damnation to all that wil not so beleeue them whereas God vseth not the authoritie of men but their ministerie to the begetting of faith in them that shall be saued In particular I denie the proposition because all the Churches in the world may erre either in some one point not fundamentall or some in one some in another And therefore some things may be propounded by the true Church of Christ which notwithstanding are not vpon any authoritie of theirs to be held for true To the proofe of the proposition set downe in the second syllogisme I answer by denying the assumption That it is necessary to admit such authoritie in the Church The reasons of my deniall are 1 That God hath giuen no such authoritie to anie companie of men since the Apostles or besides them who had it seuerally euery one in his owne person 2. That there is no necessitie of anie such authoritie for the saluation of the elect or damnation of the reprobate 3. That the Scriptures are left vnto vs for an absolute rule whereby all things that are to be beleeued must be tried I denie also the assumption of the first principall syllogisme and to the proofe of it contained in the third syllogisme I say further that they which professe the doctrine that the Church of Rome now teacheth in many points are members of the Church of Antichrist vnder the Pope the head thereof But if as you say Those that professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church how ignorantly and absurdly do your Monkes of Bourdeaux write in their solemne profession of religion where they say that the holy visible catholique and Apostolike Church dispersed ouer the whole world hath communion in faith manners with the Church of Rome If the Catholique Church haue communion with the Church of Rome sure the Catholique Church and the Church of Rome are not all one A. D. §. 4. Vpon which points when he had heard my discourse he desired me for his better remembrance to set downe in writing what I had said The which I had first thought to haue done briefly and to haue imparted it onely to him but by some other friends it was wished that I should handle the matter more at large they intending as it seemed that it might not only do good to him but to others also that should haue need of it as well as he Of which sort of men standing in this need as I could not considering their miserable case but take great pitie so I was easily moued especially at my friends request to be willing to do my endeuour which might be for their reliefe and succour and to take any course which might turne to their helpe and profite A. W. The title of your booke professeth breuitie here you say that you had thought to set downe your discourse briefly but haue handled the matter more at large Either your Title or your Preface is to blame Your Title is iustified afterward where you say that your course of writing is very briefe and compendious Papists talke of pitie who without mercie or conscience wold haue murdred so many thousāds by treason as they thought haue sent them almost quicke to hell soules and bodies together It is not anie pitie of vs but your slauery to the Pope and proud conceit of I know not what merite with hope of making your part strong for rebellion or massacre that drawe from you these goodly treatises A. D. §. 5. Now of all other courses which haue bene and might be vndertaken that which in my speech I did chuse as most expedient for him with whom I did conferre seemed best also for me to prosequute in this my writing for the benefite of him and others and this for foure reasons A. W. I know not what he was with whom as you say you did conferre but I am sure his iudgement was at the most but indifferent good if such a course as begs the question would be any way liked of him You vndertake to shew That it is necessary to admit an infallible authority in the true Catholique Church which you expound to be A companie of men vpon earth VVhat Protestant is there of any knowledge but vnderstands that by Catholique Church we meane ordinarily not any companie in
this world but the whole societie of the faithful from time to time But these gay shewes of Catholike Church Vniuersalitie antiquitie vnitie succession and such like are fit to deceiue the ignorant for which purpose your discourses are written with whō they preuaile by the iust iudgement of God who sends them strong delusions that they may beleeue lyes because they haue not embraced the loue of the truth that they might be saued A. D. §. 6. First because it is very briefe and compendious and consequently such as euery one might haue leysure and should not be much weary to reade it A. W. You deale in your corrupt writings as leud men do in slanderous reports who speake anie thing at aduenture though neuer so vntrue or vnlikely It is hard but some men will either beleeue or make doubt of it at the least So all men reade your writings you care not Though they that are of knowledge and iudgement discerne your falshood yet it is twentie to one but some ignorant fellow will light on them that may be seduced And this practise you follow the rather because you are for the most part out of feare of being shamed by confutation for that you are vnknowne and know well inough that our answers to you are commonly and many times must be so large that one amongst manie can hardly find leisure to reade them Whereas if the authors of your treatises were knowne amongst vs and our answers applied shortly and plainely to the verie point of the argument that being disrobed of the idle ornaments you cloath it withall and laid naked to the view of true reason we should haue as few of your discourses as we haue now of your replies to our refutations of your treatises which are so few that in many yeares it is rare to haue anie second charge by you vnlesse it be in such a fight as requires no more but a brauado without coming to handie blowes A. D. §. 7. Secondly because it standing onely vpon few but most certaine conclusions and grounds is free from many cauils of the captious which more ample discourses are subiect vnto A. W. To speake truly and properly there is but one conclusion in your whole Treatise as I haue shewed out of this your Preface Against which we also oppose one as briefe and more certaine then yours Your conclusion is That the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth commend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Ours That the faith which the Scripture teacheth vs is the onely true faith If you speake of the seuerall cōclusions belonging to the proofe of the generall there are at the least as many as there are Chapters But if you meane the three grounds which you signifie before and repeate afterwards they are so farre from being certaine that there is neuer a one of them true as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 8. Thirdly because the matter handled in it is not very high nor hard but common easie and plaine and such as may be vnderstood of any who hauing but a reasonable wit or vnderstanding wil carefully read it as the importance of the matter requireth with iudgement deliberation and which is chiefe with prayer to God and a resolute good will to follow that which he shall find to be right A. W. The matter is as hard by your handling of it as sophistrie can well make it as high as the deepe foundation of religion Yet I denie not but it may be vnderstood by a man of such parts and paines as you require and adde farther that the like may be auowed of the true grounds of religion as they are contained in the Scripture to the reading and meditation whereof the Lord himself hath promised such a blessing as your treatises if they were neuer so true could not looke for Is not the fountaine better then the chanell A. D. §. 9. Fourthly because these fewe plaine points which are here set downe include all other and whosoeuer shall by the helpe of Gods grace and the force of these or other reasons yeeld assent to the points proued in this discourse must by consequence without further disputing or difficultie yeeld to all particular points which the aforesaid Church commendeth for points of faith and will be moued to settle himselfe in the stedfast beliefe of all For if he once admit that there is a Church or company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points and that this Church is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth and further that this Church which is thus taught and must teach vs is no other but that visible company which professeth the Romane faith then he shall not need to straine his wits in studying or to wast words in wrangling about particular points of controuersies or to vse any such troublesome and vncertaine meanes to find out the truth but may easily and most certainly be instructed in all by onely enquiring and finding out which all sorts of men may easily do what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in all particular points whereof they doubt A. W. If these few points be so conuenient because in thē all other are included why should not our doctrine of the Scripture be as conuenient by the same reason Let vs compare our assertions together The first of yours is That a man must admit that there is a company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points The first of ours That a man must beleeue that there is a written word of God wherein the holy Ghost hath certainely taught whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne to saluation Your second is That this company of men is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth Our second That this written word of God is appointed by him to teach all men in all matters of faith what is true what false Your third That this company of men is no other but the visible company which professeth the Romane faith Our third That this written word is no other but the bookes of the old and new Testament The proofe of your positions and the exceptions you take against ours shal be handled if it please God in their due places in the meane time if any mā be troubled with those ordinarie doubts which you haue buzzed into the common peoples eares concerning the vncertainty and hardnesse of the Scriptures let me intreat him to stay himselfe a while vpon these considerations First that the bookes of the old and new Testament acknowledged by vs are also confessed by you to be the verie word of God in the penning whereof the penners were so directed by the holy Ghost that they could not erre Therefore whatsoeuer the meanes
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
and writing Further it is false that a priuate spirit agreeing with the Catholicke Church in doctrine can be in that point of agreement the rule of faith For although the doctrine he teacheth be true yet is it not the rule of faith much lesse is he himselfe because of his authoritie but either as you say by reason of the authoritie of the Church or indeed as we truly affirme for that it is agreeable to the word of God in the Scripture called canonical because it is the rule of faith and manners Now for answer to your Syllogisme I say your Assumption is not simply true but onely so farre forth as the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church I speake as you do agreeth with the truth in the Scripture reuealed Neither doth Saint Paul speake of whatsoeuer doctrine receiued by your imagined Catholicke Church of Rome but of that which he himselfe or some other of the Apostles had taught the Galatians to whom he writeth that Epistle This it should seeme you saw well enough and therefore in your crastie discretion for bare to translate the Apostles words which for the most part you set downe alwayes as well in English as in Latine The reason lieth thus He that teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued of the Apostles is to be accursed for his preaching so But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church teacheth contrary to the doctrine which the Galatians had receiued by the Apostles Therefore a priuate spirit teaching contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church is to be accursed for his preaching so Who seeth not that the truth of this Assumption dependeth vpon this point that the Catholicke Church hath receiued no other doctrine then that which the Apostles taught the Galatians But this hath as much need of sound proofe as that for the proofe whereof it is brought and therefore to dispute thus against any man that would hold a priuate spirit to be the rule of faith were to giue him occasion to laugh at you for begging the question in stead of prouing it But to make all men see how small force there is in this your reason for the keeping of a priuate spirit from being the rule of faith I will frame two other syllogismes against a publick spirit or Councel and against the Pope 1. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholick Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a publicke spirit or Councell that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith 2. He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore the Pope that teacheth contrarie to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith Haue you not spun a faire threed thinke you to choake the Popes and the Councels authoritie withall Call your wits about you and deuise some cleanly shift for the matter or I can tel you all wil be naught For your Religion is no more able to hold vp head if the Popes authoritie be cast downe then a man that hath neuer a leg is able to stand vpright It will go the harder with you in this matter because if I grant that the Pope cannot erre you are neuer a whit the nearer for the answering of my syllogisme as you may perceiue if you will but assay to apply that point for answer to either part thereof There is no other way but to giue ouer this your first reason against a priuate spirit and to make amends for it in the second if you can A. D. §. 3. Secondly the rule of faith must be infallible plainly knowne to all sorts of men and vniuersall that is to say such as may sufficiently instruct all men in all points of faith without danger of errour as hath bene proued before But this priuate spirit is not such For first that man himselfe cannot be vnfallibly sure that he in particular is taught by the holy spirit For neither is there any promise in Scripture to assure him infallibly that he in particular is thus taught neither is there any other sufficient reason to perswade the same For suppose he haue such extraordinarie motions feelings or illustrations which he thinketh cannot come of himselfe but from some spirit yet he cannot in reason straightwayes conclude that he is thus moued and taught by the spirit of God For sure it is that euery spirit is not the Spirit of God As there is the spirit of truth so there is a spirit of errour As there is an Angell of light so there is a Prince of darknesse Yea sometimes Ipse Sathanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Sathan himselfe doth transfigure himselfe into an Angell of light Wherefore he had need very carefully to put in practise the aduise of Saint Iohn who saith Nolite credere omni spiritui sed probate spiritus si ex Deo sint Doe not beleeue euerie spirit but prooue and trie them whether they be of God or no. Neither doth it seeme sufficient that a priuate man trie them onely by his owne iudgement or by those motions feelings or illuminations which in his priuate conceit are conformable to Scripture because all this triall is verie vncertaine and subiect to errour by reason that our owne iudgement especially in our own matters is verie easily deceiued and that Sathan can so cunningly couer himselfe vnder the shape of a good Angell and so colour his wicked designements with pretense of good and so gild his darke and grosse errours with the glistering light of the words and seeming sense of scripture that hardly or not at all he shall be perceiued VVherefore the safest way were to trie these spirits by the touchstone of the true Pastours of the Catholicke Church who may say with S. Paul Nō ignoramus cogitationes Satanae we are not ignorant of the cogitations of Sathan and who may also say with S. Iohn Nos ex Deo sumus qui nouit Deum audit nos qui non est ex Deo non audit nos In hoc cognoscimus spiritum veritatis spiritum erroris VVe are of God he that knoweth God heareth vs he that is not of God doth not heare vs. In this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of errour Now if any will not admit this manner of trying discerning the spirit of truth from the spirit of errour but will trust their owne iudgement alone in this matter feare they may iustly nay rather they may be sure as Cassian saith that they shall worship in their thoughts the Angell of darknesse for the Angel of light to
kingdome which shall haue no end A. D. § 5. Lastly I might confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers Origen Saint Chrysostome S. Bernard and especially of S. Austin who disputing against the Donatists saith thus as rehearsing one of their speeches Sed illa Ecclesia quae fuit omnium gentium iam non est perijt That Church which was of all nations is not now it is perished Vnto which their speech he answereth O impudentem vocem Accounting it great impudencie to say the Church is perished And in the same place he bringeth in the Church as speaking personally thus Quam diu ero in hoc seculo annuncia mihi propter illos qui dicunt Fuit iam non est apostatauit perijt Ecclesia ab omnibus gentibus Et annunciauit nec vacua fuit vox ista Quis annunciauit mihi nisi ipsa via quando annunciauit Ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi How long shall I be in this world tell me in regard of them who say the Church indeed was but it is not now it is become apostata and is perished out of all nations And he told me neither was this word in vaine who told me but the way it selfe to wit Christ who saith I am the way when did he tell Behold I am with you vntill the end of the world A. W. Here is a flourish of names to little purpose especially since these authors you mentiō agree with vs about the true Church that consisteth only of the elect not as you teach of all sorts good and bad elect and reprobate so they make an outward profession of beleeuing But Austin condemneth the Donatists of impudencie for saying that the Church was in their time perished out of the world saue that it remained in a part of Africa amongst them that held with Donatus So would he crie out against you Papists if he liued at this day and heard you complaine that there is no Church in the world but only in Rome in those countries which depēd vpon the Church of Rome Onely Donatus his part as Austin calleth it was the Church with them and onely the Popes part is the Church with you You are not indeed as yet come so farre as they were because some other countries besides Italy are content to be ruled by your Pope but when it shal please God to leaue that strumpet the Church of Rome destitute of friends as her wound is vnrecouerable and she draweth euerie day nearer and nearer to her end then will you take vp the verie same complaint that the Donatists vsed and there shall be no Church at all but in Rome or where the Pope shall lurke in some other corner of the world We denie not that the Church to whom our Sauiour maketh that promise shall continue till the end of the world and we detest Donatus heresie in affirming that it was then to be found onely in Africa But as I said before what maketh this for the continuance of such a Church as you imagine This rather belongeth to the visibilitie and famousnesse of the Church whereof in the next chapter A. D. CHAP. XII That this Church which must be to vs the rule of faith as it must alwaies continue so it must also alwaies be visible A. W. It is yet to prooue and alwaies will be that there is any such Church as must be to vs the rule of faith what should we then striue about the continuance and visibilitie thereof But you must needs be answered according to the counsell of Salomon Lest you be wise in your owne conceit to the hurt of other A. D. §. 1. Now hauing prooued that the true Church of Christ must alwaies continue without interruption till the worlds end it remaineth that I shew also in what manner it is to continue to wit whether it shall alwaies be visible That is to say whether in all ages it was and shall be a companie of men who may be seene and in some sort plainely knowen to be that companie which men are to beleeue by faith to be the true Church of Christ or that it shall be sometime at least inuisible that no man can see those men nor know them to be that companie which we must beleeue to be the true Church of Christ A. W. That the Church of Christ must alwaies continue is a point that needeth no proofe that it is to continue without interruption if we did not beleeue alreadie we should neuer be driuen or perswaded to it by your weake reasons But as me thinks I must be faine to tell you oftner the continuance of the true Church without interruption makes nothing at all for that imaginarie Church of your deuising of the visibilitie whereof you intreat in this Chapter Wherein first you goe about to propound and expound the question then you make a shew of proouing it according to the conceit you haue of it In the propounding of the question for the readers better vnderstanding I must let him know that howsoeuer your words shall alwaies be visible seeme to tie the question onely to the time hereafter to come yet your meaning is to enquire whether the Church of Christ haue not alwaies since his first comming and shall not alwaies till his second comming be apparent and visible This is manifest by your exposition In all ages it was and shall be and by your proofes which at the least in your opinion concerne the whole Church of Christ euer since his comming in the flesh Your exposition rather darkens then cleares the State of the question For who would not thinke by your words that one part of the controuersie betwixt you and vs is whether the men the companie of whom is the church may at all times be seene or no as if we were so voide of sense as to imagine that men could be at any time except by miracle inuisible Do not your words imply thus much I pray you consider them a little with me The question is say you whether the Church be alwaies a companie of men that may be seene If you answer that I must adde that which followeth And in some sort plainly knowen to be that companie I replie that your selfe afterward make those two distinct parts of the question when you expound what is meant by Inuisible that no man say you can see those men nor know them to be that companie wherein you may reasonably be thought first to speake of those mens being seene and secondly of their being knowen to be such a companie But to make short and to speake plaine withall the question of the Churches inuisiblenesse is double First whether a man by his bodily sight can discerne who they are that be members of Christs mysticall bodie or no that is who be elect and who be not This we say herein you agree with vs
is vnpossible because God doth not reueale this point to men neither are they able to iudge who are truly iustified and sanctified and who are not Secondly the question is whether the catholicke Church spokē off in the Creed can be discerned by the same bodily sight or no we say it cannot because it containeth none but the elect you say it can because it consisteth of all them that make profession of christian Religion vnder the absolute gouernment of the Pope of Rome The onely true meanes to make a full end of this controuersie is to shew what the Church is of which the Creed the Scriptures speak so many and so glorious matters This point you haue not once touched but either ignorantly or craftily concealed that difference betwixt vs and alledge that for the definition of the Church which if it were true as it is euidently false yet is but one priuiledge of the Church and expresseth not the nature of it But let vs leaue these matters and consider what it is that according to your former discourse you are to prooue Now that is say I that there alwaies hath bene since our Sauiours comming is and shall be to the end of the world a companie of men famous and visible in the world so that all men at all times may discerne that they are the true Church of Iesus Christ. For that I may in part vse your owne words as they follow in this chapter if at any time it could not be knowen then the men that liued in that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequently whereby they might come to saluation Giue me leaue to apply that to all men which you speake of all times If there euer were are or shall be any men to whose sight the Church was not so visible that they might discerne and know it then those men wanted necessary means whereby they might attaine to saluation which if it were so say you how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture God would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth Do you not perceiue that your reason necessarily requireth to haue it prooued that the Church is visible as at all times so to all men For if it faile in either of these respects your consequence will follow that some men haue wanted necessarie meanes of saluation and so God would not haue all men saued Therefore you propound the question verie insufficiently when you say We inquire whether the Church at any time be inuisible so that no man can see those men c. For though at all times some men may see and know it yet vnlesse all men at all times may you haue prooued nothing to purpose in this whole Treatise A. D. §. 2. In which matter my Assertion is that the Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore cited do speake must alwaies be visible This I prooue first by that plaine Prophesie of Isaias in the 61. Chapter Which Chapter to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church we may gather out of Saint Luke where our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe The words of the Prophesie are these Foedus perpetuum feriam eis scietur in gentibus semen eorum Omnes qui viderint eos cognoscentillos quoniam isti sunt semen cui benedixit Dominus I will make a perpetuall couenant or league with them and their seede shall be knowen among Nations all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seede which our Lord hath blessed How could he more plainely haue foretolde the visiblenesse of the Church The places of Scripture afore cited speake not all alike some of them concerne the Apostles onely and that not onely as they are a companie but as they are seuerall teachers authorised by our Sauiour Christ with so high and absolute a commission some belong to all true christians as well seuerally considered one by one as taken iointly all together Some appertaine to all Ministers some reach to all professors of the truth of the gospell How then can you truly say that the true Church of Christ of which the places of Scripture afore recited doe speake must alwaies be visible The Apostles haue not bene visible these 1500 yeares The elect that is the Church built vpon a rocke neuer was nor euer shall be visible in this world All Ministers were not nor can be visible to all men All professors neither are the true Church of Christ nor can by any meanes possible be seene of all mē as one church but with the eies of the mind Particulars are subiect to sense but vniuersals are discerned onely by vnderstanding Your assertion then is false but we will take it as it is set downe by you supposing that those places of Scripture speake of the Church in generall Yet we may not forget that the second point must needs be added concerning all men and so your assertion must be this The true Church of Christ must alwaies be visible to all men liuing To make way to your argument out of this prophesie you go about to prooue that the Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ his Church your proofe lieth thus Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church This consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent First because the whole chapter may be written of our Sauiour himselfe and yet not of his Church also Secondly because some part of it may be of our Sauiour and yet not those words you alledge For who is he that knoweth not that one and the same Chapter often times conteineth diuers prophesies belonging to diuers matters and parties But though your proofe be naught your opinion is true For those words that whole chapter concerne our Sauiour and his Church Let vs see how you reason If our Sauiour promise to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church and that their seede shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed then the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing But our Sauiour hath promised to make a perpetuall couenant with his Church that their seed shall be knowen among nations and that all that shall see them shall know them that they are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Therefore the Church must alwaies be visible to all men liuing I denie the consequence of your Maior Though our Sauiuiour made such a promise and indeed hath and doth daily performe it yet it doth not follow thereupon that the Church must alwaies be visible to all men Shall the promise
of our Sauiour faile if the Church at some time be not apparent to all men Take heed we giue not the Atheists of the world occasion to say that his promise was neuer fulfilled because the Church was neuer knowen to all men liuing at any one time The Lord by this prophecie foretelleth the enlarging of the Church amongst the Gentiles not the visiblenesse of it at all times to all men But the couenant y you will say is perpetuall True that is saith your glosse not as the old Testament to which the new hath succeeded and therefore he expoundeth the perpetuall couenant to be the eternall Gospell which shall neuer be abolished for anie other as the ceremoniall Law was by the sacrifice of our Sauiour Christ An other of your Glosses calleth it a perpetuall couenant because it shall be certainly performed applying to that purpose the place of Matthew Heauen and Earth shall passe but one iot or title of the Law shall not passe till all things be fulfilled The other clause is as little to your purpose The Prophet saith not that all men at all times shall or may see the Church but that all which shall see it shall know it Neither is that sight an outward beholding of those men that are members of the Church but a discerning spirit giuen by God to them whom he hath appointed to euerlasting life by faith in Christ For if we strictly presse the words who seeth not that this promise hath failed since there haue bene many in all ages yea in our Sauiours owne daies who for all his powerfull miracles diuine doctrine and vnspotted conuersation acknowledged neither his Church nor himselfe Say not they might haue done For that is not the question The Propher saith All that see them shall know them not may know them Your ordinarie glosse applieth this to the Apostles and their followers or those that imitate their workes So doth Vatablus expound them their workes And Lyra more particularly sheweth what works are meant They saith Lyra that shal see them distinguished from other men by their miraculous and powerfull works wherein the Apostles and other their successors excelled the common people and yet excell them in many things Now the Apostles themselues for all their many and strange miracles might haue bene and had bene vnknowen I will not say to many men but to many nations and the farre greatest part of the world if they had not according to their commission trauelled from place to place and so into diuers countries brought the first tidings of themselues How can it be then that at all times since the death of the Apostles the Church hath bene visible to all men seeing there hath bene neither charge nor warrant nor practise of any such vniuersall ministerie If any man had rather vnderstand this Prophecie of the knowledge that the vnbeleeuers haue of the Church the meaning is that the Lord will bestow such graces of Sanctification vpon his children that euen their verie enemies amongst whom they liue shall be driuen to acknowledge them for the people of God But what is this to the visiblenesse of the Church to all men at all times A. D. §. 3. Secondly our Sauiour hath ordained this his Church to be the light of the world according as he saith Vos estis lux mundi you are the light of the world and to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may come to the knowledge of that One infallible entire faith which is necessarie to saluation as hath bene prooued But how can it be the light of the world if it selfe be inuisible Nemo accendit lucernam ponit eam sub modio No man lighteth a candle and when he hath done setteth it vnder a bushell where it cannot be seene And how can it be a meanes by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowen to all sorts of men if it selfe at any time could not be knowen of men Or if you say that sometimes it could neither be knowen it selfe nor be a meanes by which the true faith might be made knowen then sith that I prooued that it is a necessarie meanes and so necessarie that without it according to the ordinarie course there is not sufficient meanes prouided by Almightie God to instruct all men infallibly in all points of faith Then I say men that liued at that time wanted necessarie meanes whereby they might attaine to the knowledge of true faith and consequenly whereby they might come to saluation Which if it were so how is it vniuersally true which is vniuersally said in Scripture Deus vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire God would haue men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of the truth For how can he be said to haue a true will to saue all men If he haue not at all times prouided meanes sufficient wherby all men may come to the knowledge of true faith and thereby by degrees to saluation Sith especially he hath power to prouide these meanes and knoweth that without these means prouided it is vnpossible for men to attaine true faith and eternall saluation For knowing it vnpossible he cannot be said to will it sith no wise man willeth that which he knoweth perfectly to be altogether vnpossible and much lesse may Almightie God be said to will any thing which is absolutely vnpossible considering that his wisedome is infinite and that his will is alwaies ioyned with some worke or effect by which worke or effect that which he willeth at least is made possible to be done VVherefore to verifie that Almightie God would haue all men saued we must needs say that he hath prouided for all men these meanes which be necessarie and without which it is vnpossible for them to come to the knowledge of true faith and thereby to saluation One of which meanes is a visible Church of which they must heare and learne the true faith which is the first and a necessarie step to saluation The Church therefore must needs be alwaies visible This your second reason is thus to be framed If the Church be not visible to all men at all times then it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world and a rule or means by which all men at all times may come to faith and saluation But it is ordained by our Sauiour to be such a light and such a rule or meanes Therefore it is visible to all men at all times That I may be the more easily vnderstood by the ordinarie Reader I wil apply my answer to the course that you haue takē in setting downe your reason where in the first place we haue your minor and one proofe of it another followeth after your proposition and there shall be examined Concerning your Assumption I say it is false The Church
is not ordained to be such a light rule and meanes To your proofe touching the light I answer with diuers of the auncient that our Sauior speaketh to and of the Apostles not of the Church in succession from time to time All the Apostles saith Chrysostome are the light to whō he said Ye are the light of the world These were the light of the eyes of the two testaments the Law and the Gospel For they by the light of our Lord enlightened for vs the old and new testaments He that reproueth those things that are done secretly is the light quoth Theophylact. For all that maketh any thing manifest is light But they the Apostles enlightned not one nation but the world So doth Austin somtimes expound it So Ierom Hilary Remigius Lucas Brugensis a learned Papist not onely applieth this text to the Apostles but also affoords vs a second answer You are that is saith he you must be or ought to be the light of the world that you may carry the light of the Gospel into the world he set round about with darknesse And thus in a manner do Austin and Hilary expound it But let vs vnderstand it of all teachers that they are the light of the world as indeed they are in a certaine proportion What then Will it follow hereupon that therefore the Church is at all times visible to al men The Apostles themselues whom this doth especially concerne were not so For many thousands in the world died after the generall commission giuen to the Apostles before it was any way possible for them to take any knowledge of such Preachers or of the Gospell Your great Cardinall Bellarmine will needs haue the place expounded not of the Apostles doctrine but of their conuersation which is not so easie and readie to be knowne as their preaching was Tertullian applieth it to the behauiour of all Christians Why hath our Lord saith he compared vs to a light and a hill if we shine not in the midst of the darknes if we hold not vp our heads in the middle of them that lie drowned But out of question this holinesse of true Christians is not alwayes visible to all men neither can it belong to your Church the members whereof may be vtterly void of true faith and loue saue onely in the outward profession Take it how you will for doctrine or manners or both you are neuer a whit the nearer If I would presse the words I could say that our Sauiour requires no more in this place of the light but that it giue light to all them that are in the house that is to all in the Church or at the most to them that are neare neighbours thereunto For what candle is there so bright that the light of it can be seene ouer all the world What though our Sauiour call his Apostles the light of the world doth he meaue that they all ioyntly together considered as a companie are so or that euery one of them seuerally is the light of the world If you will haue it spoken of them as the Church and else it cannot serue your turne to proue the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church I doubt how you will be able to shew that they were the light of the world For they did not enlighten the world by any ioynt act of them all together but by their seuerall preaching in seuerall places Neither did they perswade men to beleeue because they were such or such a company but euery one of them taught the doctrine of the Gospell and was of himselfe without relation to all or any of the rest the light of the world in that part where it pleased God to blesse his labours to the begetting of faith If you say that euery one of them was the light of the world as doubtlesse euery one was then will it not follow that because the Church is the light of the world therefore it must be at all times visible to all men For neuer any one of the Apostles was so no nor all of them as I said before many thousands being taken out of the world after the Apostles began to preach ere they could possibly haue any glimpse of such a light To conclude the Apostles were and the Ministers in some sort now are the light of the world because by their preaching it pleaseth Almightie God to open the eyes of worldly men that they may turne from darknes to light and from the power of Satan to God that they may receiue forgiuenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith in Christ not as if any or all these must at all times be visible to all men but that there may be meanes for the saluation of those whom the Lord of his infinite loue hath chosen out of the world to be heires of his endlesse glory By all men we may vnderstand either euery particular man or all sorts of mē If you wold proue that which you vndertake you must meane euery particular man as I haue shewed in answering the fifth Chapter and as it is apparent in this afterward where you repeate that which before you had deliuered concerning Gods will to haue euery man saued one and other But I know not how in the proofe of your proposition you seeme to expound all men by all sorts of men How can it be a meanes say you by which at all times the infallible truth may be made knowne to all sorts of men if it selfe at any time could not be knowne of men In this sense if I should grant your whole fyllogisme yet would the point in question remaine still vnproued For the Church may be ordained for the light of the world and for a rule or means whereby all sorts of men may come to faith and saluation and yet at no time be visible to euery particular man To speake more plaine your proposition may be vnderstood two seueral ways first thus that all men shall be taken in the one part of it namely in the antecedent or former part for euery particular man in the other for all sorts of men If it be thus vnderstood I say the consequence is naught Secondly those words All men may haue the same signification in both parts of the proposition yet in two diuers senses For they may be taken either for Al sorts of men and then as I haue shewed the syllogisme proueth not that which is in question or for euery particular man in which sense onely I allow of the proposition as true and to the purpose It had bin better therefore that you had spared the proofe of it especially vnlesse you could haue done it better The light which is not put vnder a bushel is not the church but the apostles He teacheth them saith Theophylact to endure the trial and to haue great care of their conuersation as they
on whom al men gaze Thinke not therefore saith our Sauiour that ye shal lie hid in a corner Ye shal be the light of the world and therefore see that you liue vnblameably and become not an offence to other men Who can gather from hence the consequence of your proposition If the Church be not visible to all men at all times it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world Your second proofe concerning the rule and meanes is no lesse insufficient If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men you must needs meane of euery particular man if you will speake to the purpose it cannot at all times be a meanes by which the truth may be knowne to all sorts of men This is the consequence I denied before either brought by you for a new proofe or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was first deliuered Here you returne to your minor and to proue the latter part of it propound the second time your maine reason answered at large in the fifth Chapter It would be tedious and losse of time and labour to repeate all that was then said I wil therfore content my selfe to draw it into forme as it lieth and to denie the false propositions without any more adoe vnlesse I meete with somewhat by the way which was not in your former discourse Thus you reason If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation then some men at some time haue wanted one necessary meanes to that purpose But no man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes to that purpose Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation I denie your Assumption which you endeuour to proue in this sort If any man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes then it is not vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth But it is vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Therefore no man at any time hath wanted any necessarie meanes Againe I denie your minor referring the Reader for the true sense of that Scripture to my answer in the fift Chapter The proofe of your consequence about which you labor like a man that claps plaister vpon plaister on a sound place is altogether needlesse and not worth the examining saue onely that in the last clause thereof you confidently harp vpon the former string which soundeth nothing but the necessitie of a visible Church to saluation But the Apostle where he sheweth what is of necessitie to faith neither mentioneth nor any way implieth a visible Church but only requireth a sending of some to preach and that may be from God immediatly not by succession in and by men Did not our Sauiour Christs preaching bring many to faith in him and so to saluation Did not Peter conuert 3000. at one Sermon Did not the Apostle Paul plant many Churches Was any of these a visible Church or did the people to whom they preached either seeke to them as to a visible Church or beleeue that they deliuered because they were sent by a visible Church It is true that no man ordinarily can beleeue vnlesse he heare no man can heare vnlesse there be one to preach to him no man can preach vnlesse he be sent But what is all this to the necessitie of a visible Church Looke through the whole history of the new Testament and see how many examples you can finde of any that were but so much as occasioned to beleeue by the meanes of a visible Church The same of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him not the knowledge of any visible Church Cornelius a deuout man and one that feared God liuing neare to the places where the Gospell was preached was not moued by the visible Church but by a vision from heauen to send for Peter that he might heare and beleeue I might shew the like in diuers other examples that the Apostles were faine seuerally to go from place to place to preach the Gospell and not to stay till the fame of them or a visible Church should moue people to enquire after them I denie not that occasion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Gospell by reason of some visible Church whereof they may by diuers meanes haue vnderstanding but that it is vnpossible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith and hereby to saluation without a visible Church or that a visible Church is alwayes the first step to saluation though sometimes it may be the first occasion of hearing and beleeuing A. D. §. 4. Thirdly if the vniuersall Church of Christ should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue For if it did outwardly professe how should it not by this profession be made visible and knowne But if the vniuersall Church should for such a time faile to professe the faith hell gates contrarie to Christs promise did mightily preuaile against it For were it not a mightie preuailing that the whole Church should faile in a thing so necessarie to saluation as we know outward profession of faith to be necessarie both by that of our Sauiour Qui negauerit me coram hominibus ego negabo illum coram Patre meo He that shall denie me before men I wil denie him before my Father And Qui me erubuerit sermones meos hunc Filius hominis erubescet He that shal be ashamed of me and of my words him the Sonne of man wil be ashamed of And by that of S. Paule Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore fit confessio ad salutem With heart we beleeue to iustice with mouth we confesse to saluation Which place learned men interprete to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation and they say further that this sometimes is so oft as either the glorie of God or the profite of our neighbour doth of necessitie require it the which cases of necessitie do happen verie often and great maruell it were or rather vnpossible that they should neuer haue happened for so long a time as the Protestants would haue their Church to haue beene inuisible A. W. If the vniuersall Church of Christ say you should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue But it may not for any space cease to professe that faith Therefore it may not for any space of time be inuisible To omit that fancie that there is one such vniuersall Church of
Scripture warrant to preserue life without denying their faith in the Lord Iesus or refraining to performe true worship to him though they did it secretly And thus much of your argument A. D. §. 5. Fourthly if the Church were not visible we could not fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour wherein he said Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church For how can wee tell the Church any thing if we cannot tell where to seeke it neither if we did by chance meete it could we know it to be the Church A. W. If the Church say you be not visible to al men at all times then can we not tell the Church according to our Sauiours commaundement But we must tell the Church according to his commaundement Therefore the Church must be visible to all men at all times That I may answer directly and plainly to your Syllogisme I must vnderstand what you meane by Church and we The Church may signifie in this place either the whole companie of the faithfull or seuerally euerie particular congregation which yet properly is not the Church but a Church So may the other word We be taken for All men whatsoeuer or onely for such as make profession of Religion Taking Church in the former sense I denie the consequence of your Maior We must fulfill that commaundement of our Sauiour though the whole companie of the faithfull be not at all visible For the charge is not to tell the whole company but the seuerall Churches whereof we are members I haue shewed this before I wil onely put you in mind of a learned Papists exposition formerly alledged We are not willed saith Brugensis to tell the vniuersall Church spread ouer the earth but that particular Church to which euery man is subiect and wherein he liues If by we you meane none but professors of Religion as our Sauiour Christ doth and as Brugensis and all other interpreters vnderstand it then howsoeuer you take the Church for the whole companie or the seuerall congregations I denie your consequence in that respect also The faithfull may tell their particular Churches whereof they are members though the Church be not visible to all men at all times It is enough if euery man know his owne Church to which he belongeth though he know not of any other in the world Your minor is vtterly false if as you must needs do according to that you intend you meane either all men or the whole Church For as I said before our Sauiours charge is neither to all men but only to Professors of Religion nor concerning the whole Church but particular congregations And so your fourth reason proouing the visibilitie of the Church at all times to all men by our Sauiours commaundement to tell the Church is of as small force as the former It is sufficient as I noted ere while for the fulfilling of this charge that euerie man know the Church of which himselfe is a member and which he is to tell and in this sort the Churches are alwayes visible A. D. §. 6. Fiftly it is certaine that once the true Church of Christ was visible to wit when it first began in Ierusalem in the Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ and that companie which by their preaching was conuerted to the faith But there can no reason be shewed why it should be visible then and not now If it were needfull to be visible then because otherwise it could not be a Church that is A Societie of men lincked together in the profession of one faith in the vse of the same Sacraments vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours for the same reason it must needs be visible now because as in the last Chapter is prooued there must be a Church now and therefore it must be a societie of men professing the same faith vsing the same Sacraments liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastours For all this pertaineth to the verie essence of the Church If also it were needfull to be visible then that those offices and functiōs which must be done in the Church might be wel performed to wit as there were in the Church some Pastors some sheepe as Saint Gregory Nazianzene saith some to commaund some to obey some to teach some to be taught some to feed the flocke of Christ some to be fed so that euerie one of these might do what pertained properly to his dutie it was needfull that the Pastors must know their sheepe and the sheepe their Pastours and that those that should teach and rule and minister the Sacraments must see and know them whom they were to teach and rule and to whom they were to giue the Sacraments And on the contrarie side the other had need to haue knowen those of whom they must be taught whom they must obey from whom they were to receiue the wholsome food of the holy Sacraments If I say this reason prooue that it was needfull then that the Church should be visible and knowen for the same reason it will be also needfull to say that the Church must be visible now and at all times For at all times there must be Pastours and sheepe in the Church being the sheepefold of Christ And at all times these Pastours must gouerne instruct and minister the holy Sacraments and the other must receiue gouernement instruction and the foode of the holy Sacraments at their hands And consequently there had need be some visible tokens at all times by which the Pastours may know their sheepe lest for want of this knowledge they may vnawares Dare sanctū canibus proijcere margaritas ante porcos Giue that which is holy to dogs and cast margarites before hogs which our Sauiour commandeth them not to do And on the other side there had need be some visible markes by which the sheepe may know and discerne their lawfull Pastors and true preachers from false teachers and intruding vsurpers For otherwise they could not tell whom to heare obey and whom to repaire to for the Sacraments and contrarie whom to take heed of as of false Prophets whose voice to neglect as of strangers and whose poisoned food of polluted Sacraments to reiect no lesse then a baite laid to kill them by theeues and robbers as it importeth greatly euery one to do If lastly it were needfull to be visible then that those which were out of it might ioyne themselues vnto it and become members of it thereby to participate the graces and benedictions which Christ our Lord communicated onely to it and to escape the deluge of eternall damnation wherewith all was sure to be drowned that were found out of it as it were out of another Noe his Arke this reason also requireth and vrgeth that the Church must be visible now and at all other times For if at any time it were not visible how could men that were out of it come vnto it Or how could they attaine saluation if they
Church was not termed Catholicke because of the communion that one Church hath with another throughout the whole world but because it obserueth all the commandements and sacraments of God To make short the reason of the title Catholicke attributed to the Church in the iudgement both of Greek and Latin writers is first the vniuersall dispersion of the church through all part of the world The Church saith Cyril of Ierusalem is Catholick because it is spred all ouer the world It is called Catholicke saith Austin because it is dispersed through the whole world See brethren quoth the same Austin in another place how the vniuersality of the Church spred ouer the whole world is commended The Church saith he is called Catholick because it is vniuersally perfect and failes in nothing and is spred ouer the whole world Where though he seeme to acknowledge the Donatists interpretation yet he addes the other as more principall And in the conference betwixt the Catholiks and Donatists the true Christians proued themselues to be Catholicks and so rightly called because they held communion with the Church spred ouer the face of the earth This is that vnitie which accordingly was implied in the title of the Catholick Church signifying an agreement in matters of faith which was betwixt the seueral true Churches in all places Hitherto may we reasonably refer that of Pacianus who saith that Catholicke is euery where one The vnitie is signified in that so many seuerall congregations make but one church in regard of that one faith which is cōmon to all the vniuersalnesse of this church in the particular assemblies is noted to vs by the word Catholik The Fathers in the Nicene councell thought good to expresse that vnitie by professing to beleeue one Church to which they added also Catholicke So saith Alexander Patriarch of Alexandria who was in the time of that Councell We acknowledge one onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church So Theodoret afterward There is one Church scattered ouer sea and land wherefore we pray saying For the holy and onely Catholicke and Apostolicke Church And in another place Paul saith he nameth many churches not by any diuision of spirit but seuered by distance of place It appeareth then that by Catholicknes the vniuersalnesse of the Churches being in all places is signified But what was the reason why this title was added to the church In all likelihood it was first deuised and applied to the Church to signifie the breach of the partition wall which sometimes stood betwixt the Iewes and Gentils till by our Sauiours death it was cast downe This I speake vpon this supposition that the word Catholicke was as ancient in the Church as the time of the Apostles But if it were brought in afterward as I could easily perswade my self but for reuerence of other mens iudgments we may verie wel assent to Pacianus who writes of it in this maner When after the Apostles times heresies sprung vp and men wēt about to pul in peeces the doue of God that same Queen the Church by diuersity of names as euery seueral heresie had a proper name did not the Apostolicke people they that followed the doctrine of the Apostles require a sirname for themselues whereby they might make difference of such as remained vncorrupted with heresie lest the error of some should rent in peeces the vnspotted virgin of God Was it not meet that the principall head the true Church should haue a proper name to be knowne by It appeareth by these words that the reason of the name Catholick was at the first that there might be a title to distinguish sound Christians and true Churches from hereticks hereticall assemblies To which purpose that he might auow the vse of this name he signifieth that it had before bene vsed by Cyprian And afterward he affirmeth directly that the true Christian people are diuided from the hereticall when they are called Catholicke But you will perhaps demaund why Catholicke should be applied to make this distinction The reason thereof as I thinke is this The Gospell by the preaching of the Apostles was spred farre neere ouer the face of the earth accordingly diuers Churches in diuers places established all which agreed in the vnitie of the same faith and doctrine But Sathan who is alwaies watching to sow cockle and darnell among the wheat stirred vp here and there certaine peruerse and trouble some men who set abroach errors to corrupt the truth of Doctrine Now these teachers being discouered that there might be a difference of name betwixt true Christians and them for the name of christian was common to both so that euerie man might learne by the verie name to auoid the heretickes it was thought meete by the learned and carefull gouernours of the seuerall Churches that hereticks should be called by some speciall name either of their author or of some point of error which they held and the true professors should haue the title of Catholicks because they maintained the truth of that doctrine which was generally professed by the Churches of God In this sense Pacianus saith that Christian was his name and Catholicke his sirname Hee that shall aduisedly consider the vse of the word in Cyprian shall perceiue that Catholicke is opposed by him to schisme and heresie and that said by him to be done against the Catholicke Church which is done contrarie to the practise of the seuerall Churches in all countries So Clemens saith that heresies labour to rend the Church in peeces and he calleth the Church Catholicke because of the vnitie of one faith generally receiued as may be gathered out of him though indeed the chiefe thing which he respecteth in the vnitie of the Church is that All the elect are made partakers of one and the same saluation according to the couenant of God which in all ages hath bene one and the same Wherin he seemes to apply the terme Catholicke to time but the reason of the name by the generall and constant iudgement of the ancient writers is rather the generality of the Church professing the same doctrine in all places Therefore your great Bishop Melchior Canus expounding this title saith that the Church is called Catholicke because in euery country people and nation sexe and condition it is spred farre and neere And by this difference saith he afterward it is distinguished not onely from the Synagogue or Iewish Church but also from the conuenticles of hereticks So doth your catechisme of Trent set out by Pius Quintus vnderstand Catholicke The Church is called Catholicke because it is spred in the light of one faith from the East to the West receiuing men of all sorts be they Soythians or Barbarians bond or free male or female Then followeth the vniuersalitie of time containing all the faithfull which haue bene from Adam euen till this day or shall be hereafter till the
Catholicke and Apostolicke agree onely to the true Church and sith it is no hard matter for any to see or know which companie of Christians hath these properties as in the next Chapter I shall declare it is also plaine that these foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke being proper to the true Church and apparent enough are good notes or markes by which men may discerne which companie of those which haue the name of Christians and which professe as euerie companie professeth themselues to teach the true doctrine of Christ is indeed the true Church which doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ A. W. Nay rather it hath euidently appeared that neuer an one of these nor all of them together as you vnderstand them are any good markes of the true Church because euerie one of them is such as that either a true Church may be without them or at the least that no ordinarie man is able to iudge which Church hath these properties in it and which hath not Whereupon I may safely conclude that your grand syllogisme in this Chapter which any man may gather out of this last part of it is neither rightly applied to that which you were to prooue as I shewed in the beginning nor true it selfe either for the Maior or Minor as by my answer to it hath bin prooued And wheras you adde in the end that the true Church doubtlesse teacheth in all points the true doctrine of Christ we haue had too much triall of your weaknesse in iudging and boldnesse in affirming to beleeue this Cuckowes song of yours though you chaunt it ouer neuer so often A. D. CHAP. XVI That the Romane Church is One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke and therefore the true Church A. W. Although the Romane Church were One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke in such sense as you vnderstand these titles yet were it not therefore the true Church because there is neuer an one of these properties except it be holinesse which can be a marke of the Church to no man because no man can iudge of it but may for the nature of it agree to some hereticall assembly A. D. §. 1. Thus farre my discourse hath gone along all in generalities in shewing the necessitie of true faith and that this faith is to be learned of the true Church and that this Church continueth alwaies and is visible as being a visible company of men professing the true faith of Christ partaking his Sacraments and liuing vnder the gouernment of lawfull Pastors his substitutes and that whereas diuers companies of men take vpon them the title of this Church whereby same do stand in doubt which companie is the true Church there be certaine markes by which the true Church may be certainly knowne and discerned from all other companies or congregations and finally that these markes be those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke which are certainly knowne to be the properties of the true Church both by the Nicene Creed and also by plaine testimonies of Scriptures and Fathers A. W. This generall discourse of yours hath bene generally so weak and so little to purpose that you are now as new to begin as you were at the first Shall I runne ouer these particulars here mentioned True faith is necessarie to saluation But not such a faith as you require which must be entire whole and sound in all points so that the misbeleeuing of any one should be damnable 2. This faith is to be learned ordinarily of the ministers of the true Church but not to be taken vpon their credit without any examination of that they deliuer by the word of God 3. There is no such Church and much lesse any such continuance and visibilitie of it as you imagine though it may be said there is one Church because all true Churches agree in the same doctrine of the Gospell as farre as is necessarie to saluation so that none of them ouerthroweth the foundation There are also certaine markes by which true Churches may be discerned from false but those you name as you vnderstand them neither are to be found in euerie true Church and to the vttermost of mans iudgemēt may be in heretical Churches Now whereas you say that those foure One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke are certainely knowne to be the properties of the true Church there is no certaine knowledge which are good markes either by the Nicene Creed or by the Fathers but onely by the Scriptures and neither that Creed nor the Fathers do approoue of these for markes of a true Church in such sense as you vrge them A. D. §. 2. Now it will be good to see if we can by these generall grounds conclude which particular company of men is the true Church of Christ a conclusion of exceeding great consequence as touching all matters in controuersie concerning the doctrine of faith as may appeare by the drift of all my former discourse For the framing of which conclusion we shall not need to bring in comparison all the companies or sects of diuers religions that haue bene and are in the world because euerie one can easily discerne of themselues and especially by the helpe of that which hath bene said that neither Turks nor Iewes nor whatsoeuer other infidels can be the true Church of Christ because these neither haue the name of Christians neither do they professe to haue the name of Christ Neither am I now to meddle with heretickes and schismatickes of former ages the which as they haue bin condēned by the generall consent of the Church so in continuance of time they haue bin worne out by the same Church in so much that euen the memorie of them God be thanked seemeth to be perished with them A. W. Out of all doubt if your generall grounds be true it is possible to conclude by them which particular companie or rather companies are true Churches of Christ For neither can the markes of a true Church agree to a false neither are they such as cannot be discerned where they are Of Iewes and Turkes indeed there can be no question but what say you to the Greeke Churches and their Patriarckes who pleade all these points for themselues as well as you do and are able to make as good proofe of their Vnitie Holinesse Catholicknesse and Apostolicknesse Yet are you farre from acknowledging these to be true Churches of Christ because forsooth they will not come vnder the slauish yoake of your Romish Antichrist Concerning the heretickes and schismaticks of former ages I would to God Christian Churches were as free of them as we desire But Sathan who in the beginning of the Gospell laboured p to choake the good seed with his cockle and darnell though for a time he continued in securitie and like a strong man armed at all points possessed his house in peace hauing procured a generall subiection to his eldest sonne Antichrist your Pope yet when in this as it were second birth of
their hands and consequently tying himselfe so to assist him and his successours with the guiding of the holy Ghost that they should alwaies propose vnto the flock of Christ which is his vniuersal Church the food of true faith and that they should neuer teach ex Cathedra any thing contrarie to true faith sith if he should not thus assist but should permit them to teach the Church errors in faith then the Church which he hath bound to heare this Pastor in all points might contrarie to his purpose erre nay should by him be bound to erre which without blasphemie cannot be said All Catholicke learnedmen therefore knowing this do acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of this chiefe Pastour either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth and that therefore they may safely yea they must necessarily submit all their iudgements and opinions either in interpreting scripture or otherwise in matters concerning religion to the censure of this Apostolicke seat The which while they do as they must alwaies do if they will be accounted Catholicke men and will not cast out themselues or be cast out of the companie of Catholickes how is it possible that one should dissent from another in matters of faith or at least obstinately as hereticks do erre in anie point of Faith So that this difference may be assigned betwixt any sect of heretickes and the Romane Church that heretickes are a companie not vnited among themselues by any linke which is able to containe and continue them in vnitie of faith whereas the Romane Church is Plebs sacerdoti adunata grex Pastori suo adhaerens as S. Cyprian saith a Church should be a people ioyned to their Priest and a flocke cleauing to their Pastor whom whilst it heareth as it is alwaie bound to do it is vnpossible but that it should retaine the vnitie of faith like as on the contrary side according to the saying of Saint Cyprian Non aliunde haereses obortae sunt aut nata schismata quà m inde quòd sacerdoti Dei non obtemperatur nec vnus in Ecclesia ad tempus Sacerdos nec vnus iudex vice Christi cogitatur Not from any other roote haue heresies and schismes sprung vp but from this that men do not obey the Priest of God neither do they consider how that in the Church there is one Priest and one Iudge for the time in steed of Christ. A. W. In propounding these matters against vs of your proofe I will speake afterward there are a few things worthy obseruation that your dealing may be manifest to all men First you talke of the Protestants Church as if we like you fancied to our selues some one church beside which there should be none in the whole world whereas we acknowledge seuerall Churches in diuers countries to be entire in themselues without dependance of any one vpon any other Yet do we not denie that there is a certaine communion betwixt and among all true Churches which consists in their agreement in doctrine about all matters of the foundation and the mutuall helpes of prayer and of other Christians duties to be performed by one congregation to and for another In this respect there is one Church of Protestants and whatsoeuer company holdeth not the foundation is no true Church nor to be counted a member of the Protestants Church Secondly I would know why you require that our Church should be perfectly one since you mentioned no such matter in setting downe expounding the first propertie of the Church If you answer that to be one and to be perfectly one is all one I pray you remember that this terme perfectly should either haue bin put in before or bin left out now Otherwise seeing you neuer tell vs that it is all one whether a Church be one or perfectly one why shold we not make our aduantage of your words and presume that our Church is held by you to be one though it want somwhat of I know not what perfectiō imagined by you which yet you forget when you come to shew that your church is one Thirdly how doth this strange speech vniforme in dogmaticall points of faith agree with that plainnesse which you professe for instructing of the simple But in good earnest what meane you by dogmaticall points It had bin very fit you should haue vsed other termes or atleast haue expounded these for the vnderstāding of the ignorant But this dark speech makes more for you because it may perhaps affoord you some starting hole if you be hard driuen Yet a man may gesse at your meaning because when you come to proue that the Church of Rome is one you seeme to interprete dogmaticall points to be matters of faith defined by the Church If we take it in this sense I maruel how you can charge our Churches with variablenesse in this respect What one point was euer defined by the generall consent of our Churches which hath bin since altered by like consent If you can shew none as I may well presume you cannot till you do then are our Churches in dogmatical points of faith as perfectly one as yours so much bragged of Now to your argument which is thus to be concluded That Church which is variable according to the varietie of times and persons c. the learned men whereof are at iarre among themselues in matters of faith c. and haue no means to end their controuersies is not one But such is the Protestants Church Therefore the Protestants Church is not one I denie your maior varietie of opinions differences of learned men without meanes to end their controuersies do not proue any Church not to be one vnlesse the matters about which they differ be of the foundation so that the ignorance of them or error in them be in it selfe damnable To make my answer plaine I wil handle as shortly as I can the seuerall points of your proposition The Apostles disciples and other beleeuers in our Sauiours time were doubtlesse the true Church and so alwayes continued in generall though some of them haply fell away being the true Church they were also one by your owne confession yet did they not always hold the same dogmaticall points of faith but varied in matters of very great moment For a time yea all the time of our Sauiours Christs life till his ascension they beleeued that his kingdome was not onely spiritual but also of this world They were ignorant of that high point concerning his resurrection without which there is no iustification Yea after the descending of the holy Ghost vpon them they held it vnlawfull to impart the Gospell to the Gentiles Put case now that some of those who followed our Sauiour had continued in these opinions and that you had bin to giue sentence whether they their companie had bin the true church or the Apostles and people that claue to them
by Saint Gregorie the Pope and that it cōtinued in that faith without knowledge of the Protestants religion which then and for diuers hundred yeares after was neuer heard off as being then vnhatched The like record of other countries conuerted by meanes of those onely who either were directly sent by the Pope or Bishop of Rome or at least communicated and agreed in profession of faith with him we may finde in other Histories Lastly let him shew some space of time in which the Romane Church was not since Christ and his Apostles time or in which it was not visible knowne as we can shew them many hundred yeares in which theirs was not at all Let him I say therefore shew and prooue which neuer any yet did or can prooue that euer the Romane Church did either faile to be or to be visible or being still visible when the profession of the ancient faith which it receiued from the Apostles did faile in it and when and by whom the profession of a new faith began in it As we can shew whē where by whom this new no faith of theirs began Certaine it is that once the Romane Church had the true faith and was a true Church to wit when Saint Paule wrote to the Romanes saying Vestra fides annunciatur in vniuerso orbe your faith is renowned in the whole world When therefore I pray you as the learned and renowned Master Campian vrgeth when I say did Rome change the beleefe and profession of faith which once it had Quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis vrbem orbem religio peruasit aliena Quas voces quas turbas quae lamenta ea res progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo so piti sunt dum Roma Roma inquam noua Sacramenta nouum sacrificium nouum religionis dogma procuderet Nullus extitit Historicus neque Latinus neque Graecus neque remotus neque citimus quirem tantam vel obscurè iaceret in commentarios At what time vnder what Pope what way with what violence or force with what augmentatiō or increase did a strange religion ouerflow the Citie and the whole world What speaches or rumors what tumults or troubles what lamentations at least did it breed Was all the rest of the world asleepe when Rome the Imperial and mother Citie whose matters for the most part are open to the view of the whole world when Rome I say did coine new Sacraments a new sacrifice a new doctrine of faith religion Was there neuer one Historiographer neither Latin nor Greeke neither farre off nor neere who would at least obscurely cast into his commentaries such a notable matter as this is Certainly it is not possible if such a thing as this had happened but that it should haue bene resisted or at least recorded by some For suppose it were true which the Protestantes imagine that some points of the faith and religion which Rome professeth at this day were as contrarie to that which was in it when Saint Paule commended the Romane faith as black to white darknesse to light or so absurd as were now Iudaisme or Paganisme as one of their Historiographers accounteth it worse saying that indeed Augustine the Monke conuerted the Saxons from Paganisme but as the prouer be saith saith he bringing them out of Gods blessing into the warme Sunne Suppose I say this were true Then I would demaund if it were possible that any Prince in any Christian Citie and much more that the Pope in Rome the mother Citie could at this day bring in any notable absurd rite of Iewish or Paganish religion for example to offer vp an Oxe in sacrifice or to worship a Cow as God and not onely to practise it priuately in his owne Chappell but to get it publickely practised and preached in all Churches not onely of that Citie but also in all the rest of the Christian world and that none should in Christian zeale continually oppose themselues that no Bishop should preach no Doctor write against this horrible innouation of faith and the author thereof that none should haue constancie to suffer martyrdome which Christians haue bene alwaies most readie to endure rather then to yeeld to a profession and practise so contrarie to their ancient faith that there should be no true hearted Christians who would speake of it or at least lament it nor no Historiographer that would so much as make obscure mention of it Could all be so asleepe that they could not note or so cold and negligent in matters concerning their soules good as generally without any care to yeeld vnto it No certainly though there were no promise of Christ his owne continual presence no assurance of the infallible assistāce of his holy spirit yet it is not possible that such a grosse error should arise among Christiās ouerwhelme the whole world without some resistance The Bishops and Pastors could not be so simple or so vnmindfull of their duetie but they would first note such an euident contrarietie to the ancient and vniuersally receiued faith and noting it they would doubtlesse with common consent resist contradict and finally according to Saint Paule his rule accurse it If therefore this could not happen now nor euer heretofore was heard that any such absurd errour or heresie did or could arise without noting or resisting what reason can any man haue to say that this hath happened at Rome Not being able to alledge any writer that did note the thing the person the time and what opposition was made and continued against it as in all heresies that haue sprung vp of new we can do If there could not a little ceremonie be added to the Masse but that it was set downe in historie when and by whom how could the whole substance of the Masse which consisteth in consecration oblation and consumption of the sacred Hoast be newly inuented and no mention made when or by whom or that euer there was was any such new inuention at all If also Historiographers were not afraid to note personall and priuate vices of the Popes themselues which they might well thinke Popes would not willingly haue made open to the world why should they haue feared to haue recorded any alteration in religion Which if it had bene had bene a thing done publikely in the view of the whole world or if there were any feare or flatterie which might tie the tongues and pennes of those that liled neare hand that they durst not or would not mention such a matter yet doubtlesse others which liued in places further off should not haue had those causes and consequently would not haue kept secret such an open and important a thing as this If lastly the histories which make mention of these priuate vices of Popes and other Christian Princes could not onely first come out but also continue without touch till these latter times what reason can any haue to doubt
or dreame but that the like would haue bene set out about the alteration of religion if it had happened And that if any such Historie reporting any true accident of alteration or change of religion had come out it should partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence haue bene preserued till these our daies especially considering that such records had bene so requisite for discerning the ancient vnchanged true Christian Religion from vpstart noueltie which must needs be false So that we may well conclude that if Christian Religion had since the Apostles time altered in Rome it would haue bene recorded in histories as other things and especially such notable alterations are recorded and those histories would haue bene preserued till this day as other Christian monuments haue bene preserued euen in time of persecution yea euen then when the persecutors made particular enquirie for Christian bookes to burne or consume them But in those ancient Histories there is no mention made of any such alteration of Religion in Rome Wherefore it followeth that there was no such alteration or change at all No such alteration being made it is euident that the same faith and Religion which was in Saint Paules time hath alwaies continued and is there now That which was there then was the true faith and Religion as appeareth by that high commendation which Saint Paule hath left written of it Therefore that which is there now must needs be the onely true holy and Catholicke faith and that companie which professeth it must needs be the Onely true Holy and Catholicke Church Neither can I see what answere can with any probabilitie be forged against this reason For to say that the errours of the Church of Rome crept in by little and little and so for the littlenesse of the thing or for negligence of the Pastours were not espied is an idle fiction alreadie refuted For first those matters which the Protestants call errours in the Romane Church be not so little matters but that lesse euen in the like kinde are ordinarily recorded in stories Nay some of them are in the Protestants conceits and consequently if men of old time had bene Protestants they would haue bene also in their conceits as grosse superstition as Paganisme it selfe namely to adore Christ our Sauiour as being really and substantially present in the Blessed Sacrament the which Sacrament Protestants hold to be really and substantially but a bare peece of bread Also the Protestants account the vse of the Images to be Idolatrie and say verie ignorantly or maliciously that we adore stockes and stones as the Paynims did The which things could not so haue crept in by little and little but they must needs be espied Neither could the Pastours of the Church at any time be so simple and ignorant so sleepie and negligent but they must needes haue seene and seeing must needes in some sort haue resisted as before I haue said For to imagine all the Pastours of any one age to haue bene in such a deepe Lethargicall and deadly sleepe that they could not onely not perceiue when the enemie should ouer sow Cockle in the hearts of some but also when this Cockle of false beleefe should grow to outward action and especially to publicke practise the which could not be but most apparent to imagine I say all the Pastors to be so simple and sleepie not then to marke or not to resist is rather the dreame of a proud man in his sleepe who is apt to thinke all men fooles beside himselfe then a iudictall conceit of a waking man of any vnderstanding who ought to thinke of things past either according to the veritie recorded in stories or when this faileth by comparing the likelihood of that which hee thinketh was done by men of that time with that which most men of their qualitie would do in like case Finally if these things were so that the church did by this means for so long space in such important matters vniuersally erre Neglexerit officium Spiritus sanctus as Tertullian speaketh refuting the like cauill of heretickes the holy Ghost should haue neglected his office which is as I haue proued before out of Scripture not to permit the vniuersall Church to fall into error but to suggest vnto it all things that Christ said vnto it and to teach it all truth A. W. Catholicknesse especially as you vnderstand it is not such a propertie of the Church but the Church may be without it as it is plaine by that Church which was in our Sauiour Christs time onely in the land of Iewrie and after his death till the Church was scattered abroade in the world Yet let vs see what you bring to prooue that our Church is not Catholicke If there cannot be assigned a visible companie of men professing the same faith which the Protestants do euer since Christs time continuing without interruption till now then the Protesiants Church is not Catholicke But there cannot be such a companie assigned Therefore the Protestants Church is not Catholicke I denie the consequence of the maior First because that may be Catholicke which is not visible as the Church of the elect is dispersed in all places and yet no where to be seene Secondly because Catholicknesse belongs neither to time nor doctrine but to place and persons Thirdly because it is not required that the same faith in all points should be professed which you meane by the same faith but onely the same in matters fundamentall I grant your minor that we cannot assigne you any such companie though we doubt not but that there was alwayes such a companie greater or lesse as appeares by them which from time to time haue by their writings or sufferings maintained the substance of that doctrine which we now professe To proue that our doctrine is not vniuersal you say it chiefly consisteth of negatiues whereas you cannot be ignorant that we hold all the articles of the creed and that in the same sense as you do saue onely in some few differences about the vnderstanding of beleefe what it is to beleeue in the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost and what it is to beleeue the Church and in what respect the Church is called holy and Catholicke and what the Church is that we beleeue But we denie some things that some auncient writers haue held Doe you follow them in all points You will not say so for very shame But our Church is truly Catholicke because it is not tied to the Iewes or Ierusalem no nor to any other place or persons but common to all that will beleeue in Iesus Christ VVhat get you if you proue your Church to be Catholicke since that alone without the two former points alreadie disproued cannot make any companie a true Church But neither can you proue your Church to be Catholicke let your argument speake That Church which is vniuersall in time place and doctrine of the
and long before he was borne had many congregations in it who held the same faith that we now do You confesse they were not of your Church for then what needed or how could they haue bene conuerted by Austine That the Gospell was here long before that time euen in a manner from the first preaching of it Polydor Virgill no Protestant may teach you out of Gildas a Brittish writer ancienter then Bede Gildas witnesseth saith Polydor that the Brittans receiued the Gospell presently vpon the first publishing of it abrode in the world Yea Bede your owne author auoucheth that seuen Bishops of the Brittans and many verie learned men refused to receiue Austine for their Archbishop And Geffrey of Monmouth testifieth that Ethelbat king of Kent caused 1200. monkes of Bangor to be slaine in one day because they would not yeeld to Austins Archbishopricke of whom that writer saith that they decked with martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Mark you what he saith They were martyrs that chose to die rather then to yeeld to your Popish Archbishop The like conuersion we may find in the Indies especially the West where your Catholicke nation the Spaniards haue destroyed in few yeares more soules then all sent by the Pope or agreeing in faith with him euer conuerted in fiue times so many Although what tell you vs of men communicating with the Pope in the same faith How durst they attempt any such matter without speciall commission from him Is his authoritie no more amongst you The Romane Church hath indeed alwayes bene visible but it hath not alwayes bene the same Church For many hundred yeares it was ours and not yours though the diuell laboured to sow the tares you now sell for corne among the wheate and preuailed by little and little It is therefore ridiculous for you to challenge vs that we should shew when the faith receiued by the Church of Rome from the Apostles began to faile in it It was done as our Sauiour speakes in the like case while men slept and so slily peece by peece that the corne was ouergrowne ere the tares were perceiued most men tooke them for wheate they that saw some difference thought them too deeply rooted for them to plucke vp and if any man offered to touch them with his weeding hooke Satan had taken order by your Pope and his Cleargie that the hooke should be wrung out of his hands and if he held hard his head be wrung off his shoulders Thus one man being taught by anothers calamitie as in hunting with the Lion the Foxe was by the Asses misery euery one thought it best to sleepe in a whole skin and to beare with that they could not helpe Yet are there many examples of those who from time to time haue withstood the tyrannie of your Pope and your heresies in Religion and many more we should haue heard of if your Popish Cleargie had not bin chiefe commaunders through all Europe What is all this painted discourse but a flourishing repetition of that which hath bene often answered like coleworts twice sod and strewed ouer with sugar Onely to grace the seruice you send in the dish by one who in your eyes is a proper man But do you not know that as wel his owne treason as the continuall practises of his companions and aboue all the late diuellish fire worke of your superiour Garnets approbation haue made Campions authoritie light and the name of a Iesuite odious to all true hearted Englishmen Let vs take the Traitor at the best and giue him some commendation of wit and of a quicke cornicall stile If once his writings be stript of their rhetoricall habit and set naked before the light of true logicke it will appeare to all the world I will say no more then I am able to manifest that neuer any man so doted vpon by them that would seeme to be great clearkes writ more weakly or vnsoundly You tell vs that the Romane Church was once a true Church We acknowledge it with thankes to God and due commendation thereof and are loth to say any thing whereby the best opinion of it might be diminished but that you driue vs to it by building vpon that high commendation which S. Paul say you hath left written of it as if it had once bene so extraordinarily rooted that no blast could shake it But how vaine a conceit this is it will easily be seene if we consider that other Churches which haue had as great commendations are now no Churches at all What is become of that famous Church at Corinth of which the Apostle testifieth that In all things it was made rich in Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift yea the Apostle addeth that Iesus Christ shall also confirme them vnto the end that they may be blamelesse in the day of our Lord Iesus This passeth that he saith of the Romanes The like he saith of the Philippians I thanke my God because of the fellowship which you haue in the Gospell from the first day vntill now and I am perswaded of the same thing that he which hath begun this good worke in you will performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ How would you haue triumphed if the Apostle had said as much of your Church But what say you to the Church of Thessalonica From you saith the Apostle of the Thessalonians sounded out the word of the Lord not in Macedonia and Achaia onely but your faith also which is toward God is spread abroade in all quarters Are not these commendations as great as those that are left written of the Romanes Yea what if that which the Apostle speakes of them be not to commend their faith but to shew the reason of his ioy and thankes to God for their conuersion As if he should haue said that he did thanke God for them because of their beleeuing and the report thereof through the world was like to proue an occasion of spreading the Gospell and drawing many other by their example to the profession of Christian Religion and confirming them that did beleeue He declares saith Caietan that the cause of his thanksgiuing was that the fame of their beleeuing was profitable to all the world For Rome at that time was the head of the world and therefore the report of the Christian faith being at Rome was spread abroade into all places and was profitable to all as being a meanes to prouoke them to beleeue Of the confirming of others Lombard saith that they which beleeued were strengthened in faith seeing that their rulers were made their brethren in faith So do Origen Theodoret your Glosses Lyra Thomas Catharin and other vnderstand the Apostle Ambrose is not afraid to say plainly that the Apostle reioyceth for their good beginning knowing that they might go forward to perfection For as
yeares after Christ found out the true faith and the right way to heauen haue all the rest liued in blindnesse darknesse and errour consequently are you onely they that please God and shall be saued for as I haue prooued before without true and entire faith none can be saued and were then all the rest so many millions your owne forefathers and ancestors many of which were most innocent men and vertuous liuers and some of which shed their bloud for Christs sake were I say all these hated of God did all these perish were they all damned shall all these endure vnspeakable paines in hell for euer O impious cruell and incredible assertion Nay surely I am rather to thinke that you are vnwise who pretending to trauell toward the happie kingdome of heauen and to go to that glorious citie the heauenly Ierusalem wil leaue the beaten street in which all those haue walked that euer heretofore went thither who by miracles sometimes as it were by letters sent from thence haue giuen testimonie to vs that remaine behind that they are safely arriued there You I say are vnwise that will leaue this way and will aduenture the liues not onely of your bodies but of your soules in a path found out of late by your selues neuer tracked before in which whosoeuer haue yet gone God knowes what is become of them sith we neuer had letter of miracle or any other euident token or euer heard any word from them to assure vs that they safely passed that way me thinks I may account you most vnwise men that will aduenture such a precious iewell as your soule is to be transported by such an vncertaine and dangerous way I must needs thinke that sith there is but one right way and that the way of the Catholicke Church is a sure and approued safe way you are very vnaduised who with the aduenture of the irreparable losse of your dearest and peerlesse treasure your soule will leaue this safe and secure way to seeke out a new vncertaine and perillous way I must needs think sith the Catholick Romane Church is as I haue proued the light of the world the rule of faith the pillar sure ground of truth that you leauing it leaue the light and therefore walke in darknesse forsaking it forsake the direct path of true faith and therefore are misled in the mist of incredulitie into the wildernesse of misbeleefe and finally that you hauing thus lost the sure ground of truth do fall into the miry ditch of many absurdities and must needs be drowned in the pit of innumerable errors and erring thus from the way the veritie and the life which is Christ Iesus residing according to his promise in the Catholicke Church must needs vnlesse you wil which I hartily wish returne to the vnitie of the same Church incur your owne perdition death and damnation of body and soule from which sweet Iesus deliuer you and vs all to the honor and perpetuall praise of his holy name Amen A. W. To these idle questions of yours I answer first in generall that we may with reason enough perswade our selues that we haue the true faith and true Churches because we see that the very quintessence of Bellarmines sophistry distilled againe in your limbeck is of no force to purge out or alter such perswasion This appeares in the particulars viewed and examined To which I answer seuerally in a word The doctrine of the true Church we gladly admit and receiue yet not vpon the authoritie thereof but because it is agreeable to the Scriptures If you ask vs then why we are perswaded that we haue true faith we returne you answer that we are therefore so perswaded because we finde that which we beleeue auowed in Scripture and confirmed in our hearts by the witnesse of the holy Ghost Hereupon we conclude as well we may that we are members of the true Church our congregations true Christiā churches For wheras you charge some of vs but craftily forbeare to name them with chalenging to our selues the title of the true Church it is a slaunder of yours and no challenge of ours saue only thus far that we affirme there is no true Church which agreeth not with vs in the fundamentall points of the Gospell But we are far frō appropriating the Church to our congregations as if all true Churches depended vpon vs according to that you teach of your Romish synagogue And whereas you condemne vs for no true Churches because we want the markes of true Churches we say that you take those for markes which are not so as you vnderstand them and farther that euery one of them rightly conceiued is to be found in our seuerall congregations It is one because it holdeth that one meanes of saluation preached by the Apostles euen faith in Iesus Christ without mingling of any workes therewith of the ceremoniall or moral law before or after grace to deserue iustification of congruitie or euerlasting life of condignitie The contrary errors held by your synagogue make and proue it to be no true Church But how foolish is the reason you bring against vs The Protestants Church is not one because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie It hath meanes sufficient viz. the truth of the Scriptures and teaching of the spirit of God Put case it wanted meanes to continue vnitie would it follow thereupon that it is not One Surely no more then that a man is not aliue because he hath not means to keepe himselfe aliue Our Church hath had and by the blessing of God hath many holy men and women whose workes haue giuen and dayly do giue cleare testimonies of their inward graces Indeed we want vnholy legendaries to deuise and publish monstrous lies for miracles by which you haue gotten the aduantage of vs in the conceits of them to whom God hath sent strong delusions that they might beleeue lies But wisedome is iustified of her children though you proud Pharises despise her Our doctrine teacheth nothing but holinesse that we were chosen to be holy that we are freed from our sinnes to the end we might sinne no more that we are washed iustified and sanctified by the bloud of Christ buried with him in baptisme that we might die to sinne raised from sinne to righteousnesse by the power of his resurrection that holines of life is a part of our glorie without which no man shall euer see God that he which saith he is iustified and shewes himselfe to be vnsanctified deceiues his owne soule and is in the state of damnation Onely we neither giue the glorie of our saluation to our selues as if by the power of our freewill without speciall inclination thereof by the holy Ghost we had receiued faith which other men haue refused though they might haue embraced it as well as we for ought God did for or to vs more then for or to them nor looke to merit heauen by the worthinesse of our workes as
the world A man may finde in the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ shal neuer faile but which outward companie of men is this true Church no man by this marke of future continuance can by any meanes discerne Wherupon I conclude that your Catholicknesse is neither for the name nor for the thing any good marke of any true Church whatsoeuer That by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time should be signified you presume but proue not and yet I am perswaded you are not able to alledge any one ancient author but late Papists that by the Catholicke Church vnderstands a companie that hath bin alwayes since the beginning of the Christian Church and shall alwayes continue till the second comming of our Sauiour Christ I doubt not that the true Church spoken of in the Scripture and the creed hath so bin and shall be but I say that no man conceiues this propertie to be signified by the word Catholicke The ground of my opinion is that hauing found diuers reasons alledged by the Fathers why the Church is said to be Catholicke I could neuer light vpon that concerning the time Austin ordinarily restraines Catholicknes to place as also Optatus doth Pacianus where he purposely enquires the reason of the name neuer once mentions it no more doth Cyril who yet assignes sixe seuerall respects in which the Church may be said to be Catholicke And surely if by Catholicknesse vniuersalitie of time be signified I see no reason neither I thinke can you shew me any why it should not as well include the time before our Sauiours comming and so the Church of God that then was as that which hath bin since his comming and shall continue till the end of the world So doth Thomas vnderstand the Catholicknesse of the Church stretching it from Abels time to the end of the world But your great maister Bellarmine vtterly denies that the Church before our Sauiours comming was Catholicke restraining this Catholicknesse to the Church of the Christians But because I acknowledge the truth of the doctrine I will not striue about the word though you should haue prooued the sense of the word and not haue giuen too much credit to Bellarmine who brings a place of Austin to prooue that vniuersalitie of time is required to make the Church Catholicke whereas there is not a syllable or a letter touching that matter in the place alledged No more is there in that other place of Bede which also he brings but rather we may proue thence that Catholicke belongeth to place It is therefore called Catholicke saith Bede because it is edified in one and the same faith ouer all parts of the world In the sentence next before he speaketh thus Whence the Church is called Catholicke hee teacheth saying All the Churches through all Iewry Galilee and Samaria had peace So doth your Canon expound Catholicke so Durand though he adde also two other reasons of the name but not that you bring As for the place you quote to prooue a needlesse question what doth it concerne the visible Church being spoken as Ierome sheweth at large and prooueth out of the Apostle of the Church of the elect Iewes or at the most of the elect in generall Before I examine that which you haue here deliuered touching the Catholicknes of the Church in respect of place I hold it very needfull to consider what was intended by the name Catholicke and how it hath bin vnderstood of auncient writers And because this latter point may be a meanes to giue vs some light for the discerning of the former I will begin with it in the first place Whether the word were in vse in the time of the Apostles or no so that any man was called a Catholicke Pacianus seems to stand in some doubt yet he lets it passe as granted that no man was then so called Once it is out of all doubt that it is no where in the Scriptures applied to any church or to any man or at all vsed As for the title Catholicke giuen to the Epistles of Iames Peter the first of Iohn and Iude it came not from the holy Ghost the inditer of those Epistles but was added afterwards by some man when the bookes of the new Testament were gathered together into one volume which may better appeare by the titles of the other Epistles also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. of Saint or holy Paul which inscription questionlesse neuer was of the Apostles owne setting downe That which I would haue obserued is that this name Catholicke was deuised and applied to the Church not by God in the Scriptures but by man and therefore it is of lesse importance and more vncertaintie yet no doubt not giuen at aduenture but vpon good ground and to good purpose For the original of it it is Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the whole or all which we commonly call by two Latin names vniuersall or generall so that the Catholicke Church and the generall or vniuersall Church are all one To auow the antiquitie of this title giuen to the church the confession of faith which is commonly called the Apostles creede may be alledged wherin we professe that we beleeue the holy Catholick Church That this creed is very ancient it is out of question but that it was penned or indited by the Apostles themselues we haue no certaine proofe But to leaue this point and to returne again to the meaning of the words Catholick Church the auncientest authors in whom I finde them for they are not in Dionysius Ignatius Martialis Polycarpus nor in Iustine Irenaeus Tertullian Origen or any man within the first 200. years are Clemens Alexandr about the yeare 200. and Cyprian about the yeare 250. After them it grew very common especially in the Latin Church Cyprian himselfe hath not that I know of any where deliuered the reason of that title Catholick But Pacianus Bishop of Barcelona in Spaine purposely disputeth the question against Symproniā a Nouatian heretick assigning two reasons of the name in this sort If saith he I must giue a reason of the word Catholicke and expresse the Greeke in Latine Catholicke is euery where one or as the learneder thinke obedience to all Gods commmandements so that by his interpretation the Catholicke Church must be the company of them who in all places here and there professe one faith and liue in obedience to all the commandements of God This vnitie of true faith the Emperors respected Valentinian Gratian and Theodosius when they commanded that all they should be called Catholicks who follow the faith that S. Peter deliuered to the Church of Rome To this purpose is that of Cyril where he saith The Church is called Catholicke because it teacheth all things necessary to be knowne This interpretation of the word and reason of the title the Donatists gaue saying that the
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost
infallible and vniuersall rule accommodate to the capacitie of euerie one the which rule cannot be any other but the doctrine and teaching of the true Church the which Church is alwaies to continue visible vntill the worlds end and is to be knowne by these foure markes Vna Sancta Catholica Apostolica One Holy Catholicke Apostolicke the which markes agree onely to the Romane Church that is to say to that companie which doth communicate and agree in profession of faith with the Church of Rome whereupon followeth that this Church or companie is the onely true Church of which euerie one must learne that faith which is necessarie to saluation Considering I say all this I would demaund of the Protestants how they can perswade themselues to haue that faith which is necessarie to saluation sith they will not admit the authoritie and doctrine of the Church of which onely they ought to learne this faith Or how they can as some of them do challenge to themselues the title of the true Church sith their companie hath neuer one of the foure markes which by common consent of all must nedes be acknowledged for the true markes of the Church How can their congregation be the true Church which neither is One because it hath no meanes to keepe vnitie nor Holy because neither was there euer any man of it which by miracle or any other euident testimony can be prooued to haue bene truly holy neither is their doctrine such as those that most purely obserue it do without faile thereby become holy nor Catholicke because it teacheth not all truths that haue bene held by the vniuersall Church in former times but denieth many of them neither is it spred ouer all the Christian world but being diuided into diuers sectes euerie particular sect is contained in some corner of the world Neither hath it bene in all times euer since Christ but sprong vp of late the first founder being Martin Luther an Apostata a man after his Apostasie from his professed religious order knowne both by his writings words deeds and manner of death to haue bene a notable ill liuer Nor Apostolicke because the preachers thereof cannot deriue their Pedegree lineally without interruption from any Apostle but are forced to beginne their line if they will haue any from Luther Caluin or some latter How can they then brag that they haue the true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke faith sith this is not found in any companie that differeth in doctrine from the onely true holy Catholicke and Apostolicke Church For if it be true which Saint Austin saith that in ventre Ecclesiae veritas manet the truth remaineth in the bellie of the Church it is impossible that those who are disioyned by difference of beleefe from that companie which is knowne to be the true Church should haue the true faith For true faith as before hath bene prooued is but one wherefore he that differeth in beleefe from them which haue the true faith either he must haue a false faith or no faith at all Againe one cannot haue true faith vnlesse he first heare it according to the ordinarie rule of Saint Paule saying Fides ex auditu faith commeth of hearing but how can one heare true doctrine of faith sine praedicante without one to preach truly vnto him And how should one preach truly at least in all points nisi mittatur vnlesse he be sent and consequently assisted by the spirit of God Now how should we know that Luther or Caluin or any other that will leap out of the Church leaue that company wherin is vndoubted succession and by succession lawfull mission or sending from God how should we I say know that these men teaching a new and contrarie doctrine were indeed sent of God Nay certainly we may be most sure that they were not sent of God For sith Almightie God hath by his Sonne planted a Church vpon earth which Church he would haue alwaies continue vntill the worlds end and hath placed in it a visible succession of lawfull ordinarie Pastours whom he will with the assistance of himselfe and his holy Spirit so guide that they shall neuer vniuersally faile to teach the true faith and to preserue the people from errours we are not now to expect any to be sent from God to instruct the people but such onely as come in this ordinarie manner by lawfull succession order and calling according as S. Paule saith Nec quisquam sumit sibi honorem sed qui vocatur à Deo tanquam Aaron Neither doth any man take to himselfe the honour but he that is called of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and with peculiar consecration as we reade in Leuiticus cap. 8. To which accordeth that which we reade 2. Paralip 26. where Azarias said to king Ozias Non est tui officij Ozia vt adoleas incensum Domino sed Sacerdotum hoc est filiorum Aaron qui consecrati sunt ad huiusmodi ministerium egredere de sanctuario c. It is not thy office O Ozias to offer incense to our Lord but it is the office of Priests to wit of the sonnes of Aaron who are consecrated to this function or ministerie go out of the Sanctuarie Which bidding when Ozias contemned and would not obey he was presently stricken with a leprosie and then being terrified feeling the punishment inflicted by our Lord he hastened away as in the same place is declared By which places we may learne that it doth not belong to any one to do priestly functions as to offer incense or sacrifice to God or take vpon them the authoritie to preach and instruct the people but onely to Priests called visibly and consecrated for this peculiar purpose as Aaron and his children were For though the priesthood of the Pastors of the new law be not Aaronicall yet it agreeth with the Priesthood of Aaron according to S. Paul his saying in the foresaid place in this that those that come to it must not take the honor of themselues but must be called vnto it of God as Aaron was to wit visibly and by peculiar consecration In which ordinarie maner whosoeuer cometh he may be truly called Pastor ouium a Pastor of Christs flocke because intrat per ostium he entereth in by the doore to wit by Christ himselfe who first visibly called consecrated and sent immediately the Apostles and the Apostles by authoritie receiued from him did visiblie by imposition of hands call consecrate and send others and those in like manner others from time to time without interruption vntill these present men who now are Priests of the Catholicke Romane Church These therefore enter in by Christ who is the doore and therefore these be true Pastours and whosoeuer entereth not thus in at the doore but commeth in another way our Sauiour telleth vs how we should account of him when he saith Qui non intrat per ostium in ouile ouium
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne