Rome that he could no erre in his iudiciall and definitiue resolutions neither euer was the Bishop of that Sea acknowledged for the sole and onely iudge in controuersies of religion this is to be so one onely testimony of S. Cyprian will or at least may suffice for S. Cyprian a very auncient father a great learned Bishop and amost blessed martyr although he highly reuerenced the Church of Rome for respects now related and consequently the Bishops thereof yet was he so farre from acknowledging the falssy now vsurped prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome that his faith could not faile that he flatly reiected his opinion contemned his definitiue sentence and decided his iudiciall decrées calling him blind buzzard and arrogaÌ„t Prelat The like I might alledge cut of many famous papists Adrianus Panormit nus Alphonâ—us Gersonus Ockamus and others but this â—onuâ—ceth that neither S. Austin nor any auncieÌ„t father in their time nor the Bishop of Rome did obiect against S. Cyprian that the said Bishop could not erre Theoph. This is a wonderment to me that our Popes Monkes and Iesuites haue beene so licentious and wicked liuers but seeing so many famous Popish writers and the late secular Romish Priests haue in printed bookes published to the whole world testified so much of and against them it maketh me to stagger and to doubt of the Romith religion although informer times I haue high reuerenced the same for if the Bishop of Rome had beene priuiledged not to erre not onely the Bishop of Rome but the holy fathers also of that age would haue obiected the same against S. Cyprian vndoubtedly it cannot be denied Remig. You neither are nor euer were a more earnest zealous papist then my selfe haue béene but I heartily thanke God for it I now behold as clearely as the noone day the absurdities and abhominations of late vpstart popery the case is so cleare as euery child of God may with all facility perceiue the same Theoph. Why doe you call it late vpstart popery it hath continued from S. Peter and euery Pope is his successor Remig. This is one mighty point which hath not onely seduced and be witched you but both many others and myne owne selfe aswell as you I truely cald it late vpstart popery because of ten parts it scarscely retaineth two parts of the old Roman religion which S. Peter and S Paul by their preaching deliuered to the Church of Rome yea since the Iesuites began which was about the yeare 1537. popish religion is ten times more absurd then it was afore Theoph. The Catholikes hold constantly that the true faith and religion which S. Peter and S. Paul preached at Rome hath euer continued at Rome vntill this present day and that no other Church in the Christian world is able to shew a perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and priests saue onely the Church of Rome Remig. This is my answere First that the word Catholike is an holy and auncient name giuen in the beginning to all Christians and faithfull people in the world and therefore is it this day highly reuerenced and continually rehearsed in the publicke prayers of our English Church but there be two sortes of Catholikes the one deformed the other reformed which reformed Catholikes are all the true members of our English Church and all such as consesse and embrace the same faith and doctrine with them Secondly that the faith and doctrine which S. Peter and S. Paul preached to the old Romans remaineth at Rome indéede but how no otherwise doubtlesse then an old beggars cloake remaineth still to the beggar though it haue an hundred clouts of diuerse colours added and fastened one to another Thirdly that our English Church is able to shew a better and sounder perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of her Bishops and Priests then the late vpstact Church of Rome Theoph. What are you English-men Catholikes you are say we at Rome flat heretikes and apostataes as whom many late Popes of Rome haue accursed to the deepe pit of hell Remig. You know there is a sort of Fryers at Rome commonly called the Franciscans which sect was hatched and borne in the yéere 1206. who haue by little and little swarued from their first institution and become so licentious and dissolute that another sect of Fryers commonly called Capuchéenes which thing you béeing a Citizen of Rome knowe aswell as my selfe haue accused them to haue depraued and fowly peruerted the rules of their auncient order sect and profession in so much as they cannot this day with safe consciences embrace the same and therefore haue they reformed their said sect and doe terme themselues the reformed true Franciscans indéede this if it be duely considered is doubtlesse this day our case in our Church of noble England as also of many other reformed Churches within the Christian world for as the Capuchéenes hold fast kéepe still and constantly defend all the auncient rules of the old and true Franciscans and duely reiect and abandon that which by little little crept into their sect supertition abuses neglect of discipline and dissolute life euen so is it this day in our Church of England she holdeth fast kéepeth still and most constantly deserdâ—th all and euery rite of the old Roman religion highly reuerencing the same as Catholike and Apostolike doctrine Shee onely reiecteth and abandoneth heresies errors superstitions and intollerable abuses by little and little brought into the Church the enemy the dinel hauing sowen tares while the carelesse pastors were a sléepe For neither did most noble Quéene Elizabeth in her time neither doth our most pious religious Soueraigne King IAMES who most happily raigneth ouer vs set vp or bringe into the Church any new religion but he as Quéene Elizabeth before onely reformeth purgeth the Church after the holy examples of King Dauid King Salomon King Iosaphat King Ezechias King Iosias and other godly and zealous Kings in their daies and carefully reduceth it to the primitiue order and to the purity of the old Roman religion This to be so none can in conscience deny that will with a single eye this day behold thegodly setled Canons of this Church of England Theoph. If you were able to proue vnto me that the Church of Rome did any time swarne or reuolt from the old Roman religion I would doubtlesse forsake the late romish doctrine as you terme it and ioyfully yeelde vnto the truth Remig. I shall proue it by the power of God and assistance of his holy spirit before the end of this our conference if you like to stay to the end thereof and be not wearied with my discourse Theoph. God reward you for your Christian kindnesse and this paineful trauaile for my sake your talke is so comfortable to myne heart that I shall not be weary thereof though I should stay an whole yeare in your company but I feare me I shall
that hold preach or defend the contrary this excommunication Pope Sixtus the fourth thundred out in his Extrauagant in the yéere 1474. by which practicall procéedings and doctrine we may easily espie the vncertainety of the Popes faith and religion as also his ignorance in the high mysteries of popish doctrine for though he cannot erre iudicially in matters of doctrine as the papists must beléeue yet can he not decide this easie question whether the Virgin Mary was conceiued in originall sinne or not but Aquinas the Popes angelicall doctor and canonized Saint whose doctrine two Popes Vrbanus the fourth and Innocentius the fifth haue confirmeth to be sound and true affirmeth resolutely that she was conceiued in originall sinne tell me now what ye thinke of the Popes succession at Rome Theoph. I see flatly and euidently that by popish doctrine faith and religion we cannot this day tell who are true Bishops of Rome indeed and consequently that the succession deriued from them is of no credit or force at all but yet by your fauour I desire your further resolution to such shewes and colours of succession as they pretend for the Church of Rome Saint Austen saith say they that the succession of Priests euen from Saint Peter to these daies kept him in the bosome of the Church so Optatus Tertullianus others do often alledge stand vpon the succession of Bishops as an argument of the truth Remig. It is true that Saint Austen made a great account of the succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome and my selfe also all learned men I thinke doe iumpe with Saint Austen in that his opinion for the resolution of which obiection sundry obseruations already Proued are to be well remembred First that the Bishops of Rome were in the beginning many of them holy Martyre who gaue their liues for the testimony of our Lord Iesus Secondly that they ioyned formall succession with materiall vntill Saint Austens dayes and long after Thirdly that the Church of Rome by little and little swarued from the truth and declined in many points of doctrine from the auncient receiued faith Fourthly that the latter Bishops of Rome haue decreed publickely against the knowen faith in so much as some of them haue béene condemned with the sound of the Trumpets other some haue béene conuicted of Arrianisme others of Nestorianisme others of flat Atheisme others to haue crept into Peters chaire as they terme it by flat Simony others haue occupied the place by violent intrusion others by homage done to the diuel of hell Fifthly that faith and honest dealing was now decaied in the Church of Rome and long before the daies of Carranza and Platina brought to that miserable estate that euery ambitious fellow might inuade Peters seate Sixthly that by popish doctrine and vniforme assertions of best approued popish writers succession in the Church of Rome is so doubtfull that they cannot proue themselues this day to be true Bishops indeed I say by popish doctrine because my selfe doe hold them true Bishops though very wicked and vngodly men of which point I shall haue occasion to speake of more at large by and by my answere therefore in briefe is this viz that the Bishops of Rome in Saint Austens time ioyned formall succession with materiall which if the Bishops of Rome would this day performe all godly Christians would now ioyne with them as Saint Austen did in his time for as Saint frene say we ought to obey those Priests that with the succession kéepe the word of truth Theoph. Saint Paul saith plainely that there must bee Bishops and Pastors in the church vntill the worlds end whereupon it followeth say the Papists whom now I haue vpon good grounds renounced that you Protestants haue no Church at all for before Luther departed from them all Bishops and Priests for many yeares together embraced their Romish religion This obiection say our Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings doth so gall the Protestants as they cannot tell in the world what answere to frame thereunto Remig. I answere first that we are the true reformed Catholikes as is already proued Secondly that Pastors Doctors as S. Paul saith haue euer béene in the Church are at this present and shall be to the worlds end Thirdly that albeit the visible Church cannot want materiall succession the continuance whereof Christ hath promised yet cannot that succession without formall yéeld any sound argument of true faith and religion For which respect the famous Papist Nicholaus de Lyra after he hath told vs that many Popes haue swarued from the faith and become flat Apostataes concludeth in these expresse words propter quod Ecclesia consistit in illis personis in quibus est notitia vera et confessio fidei veritatis By reason whereof the Church consisteth in those persons in whom there is true knowledge and confession of the faith and verity Thus writeth this learned popish Fryer telling vs resolutely y◠though there must be euermore a visible Church with visible Pastors Doctors in it yet those visible Pastors Doctors both may swarue haue de facto swarued from the true faith religion and that therefore the Church indeed consisteth of the predestinate and elect children of God whose faith shall neuer faile this poynt you haue heard so pithely approued as is able to satisfie euery in different reader Theoph. The Iesuites say that howsoeuer you wrangle about your formal succession yet it is cleere that you haue no material succession at all vnlesse you tearme it material succession when meere Lay-men occupy the roomes of lawful Bishops for none may take vpon them or intrude thēselues into the holy ministery but such as are lawfully called thereunto as Aaron was yet all the world can tell you that all your Ministers Bishops Priests and Deacons in the time of King Edward and Queene Elizabeth and now of King IAMES haue no other orders consecration at all but such as they receiued of our Romish Bishops indeede Remig. Our succession is both materiall and formall Christian and Apostolicall as which is consonant to the holy Scriptures and to the vsuall practise of the primitiue Church For first our Bishops can proue their Doctrine by the scriptures and by the testimonies of best approued popish writers as we haue séene already Secondly our Bishops haue mission and imposition of hands according to the practise Apostolical and of all approued antiquity Thirdly our Bishops are made in such forme and order as they haue euer béene accustomed a few popish superstious and beggerly ceremonies omitted which by little little had of late yeares crept into the Church that is to say by frée election of the Chapiter by consecration of the Arch-bishop and other his associates and by the admission of the Prince Theoph. Saint Epiphanius inueigheth bitterly against one Zachaeus who being but a Lay-man as your Puritaines be presumed impudently to
vs that Constantine the great at his departure from Rome to Constantinople gaue the Bishop of Rome and his successors his crowne and all his royall dignitie both in the Citie of Rome and in Italie and in all the west parts which goodly story inuented for the Popes aduancement we sée by the constant verdit of these foure learned Papists to be nothing else indéede but a lying fable for the the Bishops of Rome were stil subiect to the Emperors receiued their authoritie and iurisdiction by their letters patents aboue 340. yeares euen vntill Benedict the second to which I adde that manie of the popish Cannons are of as good credit as Esops fables Remig. This is a point of great consequence which I should neuer haue espied but by your relation Theoph. I would wish you likewise to obserue that the Emperours Constantinus Iustinianus and others yéelding vp their soueraigne rights to the Bishops of Rome vpon a fond zeale without knowledge opened the window to all antichristian tyrannie for in short time after the Romish Bishops became so arrogant and Lordly that they tooke vpon them to dispose Royall scepters and to translate them to their pleasures Theoph. It is a memorable obseruation I shall keep it in remembrance but let me still reason for the Papists as if I were one of them for when all difficulties are answered I shall be the stronger in the truth The Church of God cannot be without Bishops and Priests as the Apostle recordeth and your selfe graunteth but so it is that when he first reformed the Church as you terme it yee neither had any Bishops nor any Priests of your owne neither could ye finde any in any other place but onely with vs and in our Church when Martin Luther went out from vs our Church therefore and none but ours is the true Church of God as which onely hath the true succession Apostolicall Remig. I answere first that our succession in the Church of England is farre better then theirs of Rome for theirs of Rome as we haue heard and séene is most doubtfull and vncertain but ours of England so constant and so assured as no deniall can be made thereof I proue it because in Anno 596. Gregory the great sent Augustine the Monke with Iustus Melitus and others as our approued Cronicles do relate to preach the Gospell to the Saxons who were kindly receiued of King Ethelbert and he conuerted to the Christian faith gaue to the same Austen the City of Canterbury since which time our Church of England is able to proue her perpetuall succession of Bishops without schisme or interruption at all albeit the Church of Rome as is already proued is not able to performe halâ—e so much Secondly that though the visible Churches were euery where greatly stained and polluted with many grosse errors superstitions and abuses at such time as M. Luther began a Christian reformation yet for all that the Bishops and Priests of the popish Churches were still true Bishops for their calling albeit otherwise very wicked men and consequently that our Bishops and Priests though descended created and made of such deformed popish Prelats are true Bishops and Prists indéede Theoph. If our Bishops and Priests were made of theirs then must either theirs bee good or ours as bad as theirs and so we shall haue no true Bishops at all Remig. Marke well what I say that yée may vnderstand the saint The Philosopher saith that one may bée a good Citizen though a bad man Euen so say I that though the Papists were wicked men and the Popish Bishops that created our Bishops foully polluted both in life and doctrine yet were they still true Christians true Bishops and consequently true members of the visible Church for they still professed held and maintained the chiefe fundamentall points of religion of God of the blessed Trinity of Christ and his two natures of his death passion of his resurrection and assention of the generall doome of all the rest comprised in the summe of religion which we call the Apostles Créede and therefore though they grieuously wounded and in a manner killed themselues by their errours corruptions superstitions and abuses yet in regard of the truth which they kept coÌ„stantly there remained in them some life of Christianity They wanted legges and armes and had their bodies and soules corrupted with many pestilent diseases but they did still draw breath and were not wholy dead We read in the Apostolicall history that there were some that beléeued who being of the heresie of the Pharisées did still hold the ceremonies of the law and vrged others to be circumcised The Prophet Dauid was sore wounded with adultery and murther but yet he still continued the child of God and Peter cursed and sware that hée knew not Christ who for all that still beleeued in Christ to the end Theoph. How can they be both good and bad Bishops at once it seemeth to me a thing impossible Remig. I answere first that the same persons may aswell be both good and bad at once as the same man may be both a father and a sonne at once and yet do all Logicians grant that this latter may be effected with all facility For one and the same man may at one and the same time be both a father in respect of his own child a sonne in respect of his father who is Grandfather to the sayd child Secondly that there is as great disparity betwéene a true Bishop and a good Bishop as there is betwéene a true man and a good man but as he is a true man that hath the nature of a true man how bad soeuer he be in faith life conuersation as Turkes Iewes Traitors Heretickes Apostataes euen so are they true Bishops of the visible Church who haue their calling places iurisdiction allotted them by the same Church how bad soeuer they be in other respects Theoph. Those Popish Bishops that made and created our Bishops and Priests in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths reigne ordeyned and consecrated them after another manner then they are this day and euer haue beene since that time ergo either must their Bishops or else all our Bishops the first onely excepted who were created after the popish manner be false counterfeit and no true Bishops indeed Remig. Neither their Bishops nor ours are false and conterfeit but both true and perfect Bishops in euery essentiall and necessary poynt pertaining to a Bishop Theoph. Theirs were made by the authority of the Pope yours by the authority royall of your gracious Princesse of famous memory Theirs with Oyle and Chrisme and many other ceremonies which yours doe not vse at all Remig. All the things by you named are méere extrinsecall and not of the essence and nature of a Bishop or of a Priest Theoph. Either must they sinne in vsing Oyle Chrisme and other ceremonies or you in reiecting
to God I could soundly answere this reason Remig. Listen well to my discourse and you shall God willing be able to confute it with all facility this is the answere First that our nation first receiued the faith iâ— the time of Vespasian Emperour of Rome about 70â— yeeres after Christs sacred Incarnation by the preaching of Christs holy Apostle Symon Zelotes Secondly that if it be true which Freculphus writeth the Brutans had receiued the faith of Christ about the yéere 6â— by the preaching of those twelue which Philip the Apostle sent into this land whereof Ioseph of Aramathâ—a was the chiefe Thirdly that about the yéere 1â—9 Elutherius then Bishop of Rome at the request of King Lucius the sonne of Coâ—lis sent Faganus and Deruuianus into Britaine to baptise the said King and his people and to instruct them in the faith of Christ. Fourthly that séeing the Brutanes had béene subiects and tributaries to the Romans aboue 600. yéeres it is no rare thing that Gregory the chiefe Bishop of the Romans should send preachers into England with the good liking of Ethelbert then King of Kent for it is euery Christians duty to doe what in him lieth in such a case Fifthly that the name Pope is a Gréeke word which signifieth father and in the auncient Church was common to other Bishops with the Bishops of Rome which you may finde proued at large in a little booke intituled the triall of the new religion Sixthly that in the time of this Gregory and long after the faith and doctrine of the Church of Rome was in good case though in some part steined with some corruptions neither is it blame worthy either in Bishop Gregory that sent it or in King Ethelbert that receiued it that our nation had then the Church seruice in the Latin tongue for as the prouerbe saith necessity hath no law besides that the Roman language was then in the Latin tongue and so to them their vulgar tongue and they altogether ignorant of the language of our nation for of old time as Nicholaus Lyranus that learned popish Frier telleth vs euery Church had diuine seruice in her mother and vulgar tongue of which subiect I haue written at large in the suruey of popery and no maruell if our Church receiuing the Church seruice in the Latin tongue though vpon necessity for that the Romans were ignorant of the Saxons language did a long time reteine the same for though it were a fault comparatiuely a small one would to God our Church had neuer béene steined with greater corruptions one thousand yéere are fully expired since Gregory was the Bishop of Rome since which time most intollerable abuses superstitions errors and flat heresies haue crept into the Church of Rome which is all that our Church hath abolished still constantly reteining as pure and inuiolable the old Roman faith and religion Theoph. You told me that the visible Church both may erre and de facto hath erred and the same as you haue soundly proued by the testimonies of best approued popish writers may fitly and truly be verified in many late Bishops of Rome but how any Church can be inuisible which is the Church say you that cannot erre I doe not yet vnderstand I pray you take some paine for my better instruction in that behalfe Remig. True it is that euery particular Chuch is visible in it selfe for all men women and children euery one in his corporall consistence are visible as experience teacheth vs and for all that this is a true and most constant position that that Church which cannot erre inuisible for the true aâ—d exact knowledge whereof you must distinguish in man two things his externall corporeity or corporall consistence and his internall election in Christ Iesus Man considered the former way is visible indéed euery child can discypher the case but the latter way he is inuisible and knowne onely vnto God or to those to whom he reuealeth it Theoph. I seeme now to haue a glimmering of the question though no perfect insight into the same I pray you vnfold the case distinctly and declare it by some familiar examples if it may be Remig. At such time as the Prophet Elias made his complaint in Santaria that he onely was left alone an Oracle from heauen answered him in this maner I haue reserued to my selfe seuen thousand men which haue not bowed the knée to Baal By which diuine Oracle it is euident yâ— seuen thousand persons were inuisible to Elias and all the same visible in themselues at one and yâ— same time Do yée now vnderstand the case Theoph. I seeme to conceiue it by vertue of your former distinction They were visible as men but inuisible as the children of God for that Elias knew not their faith and election in Iesus Christ. Remig. You conceiue it aright Iudas Iscariot as he was a man was visible both to the rest of the Apostles and to others who for all that as he was a traytor was visible to God alone for which cause the Apostles were astonished when they heard that one of them should betray Christ their Lord and Maister The Apostle confirmeth the same when he saith the foundation of God remaineth sure and hath this seale the Lord knoweth who are his the faith and conscience of the elect to God-ward is vnknowne to men and so to them they are inuisible though visible in their owne persons Theoph. I must needes yeeld to this as to a manifest truth but are not all members of the which Church beleeue in Christ and hold the catholike faith as we do Remig. All that professe externally the Catholike faith are members of the visible Church and must be reputed for such so long as they are not cut off from the Church by the iust censure of excommunication But Gods elect onely are the true Church that is to say that mysticall body whereof Christ Iesus is the mysticall head Gods elect onely are that Church to which Christ promised his inuisible presence to the worlds end Gods elect only are that Church which is the pillar of truth and cannot erre But the reprobates neither are nor can bee that mysticall body whereof Christ is the head for our Lord Iesus is so farre from being their head that he hateth all those that worke wickednesse and wil put them from him with a sharp ve vobis at the generall doome Gods elect onely are the bride betrothed to our Lord Iesus the Bride-grome betwéene whom there is such an inseparable vnion as no power create vpon earth or in heauen is able to dissolue the same Theoph. God reward you for your great paines which you haue taken herein for his names sake and my good you haue so resolued me in these most intricate difficulties of christian religion that I stand at vtter defiance with the late start-vp Romish faith and doctrine highly reuerencing the old Roman
religion and so much of late Romish faith and doctrine as is consonant and agreeable to the same But for all this the Papists seeme to haue strong reasons for their vnwritten traditions which indeede are so strong as my selfe know not how to answere them Remig. Doubt nothing in this behalfe God of his mercy will illustrate your vnderstanding in this difficulty as he hath done already in the rest but for this subiect I haue written so largely thereof in two seuerall bookes viz. the downe fall of Popery and the Iesuits Antepast that I am altogether vnwilling to handle the same a fresh Theoph. I haue read both those bookes they doe content me exceedingly howbeit some obiections may yet be made against the doctrine there deliuered which my selfe am not able to confute I therefore would humbly intreate your paines not for a new discourse thereof which I hold needlesse but for a fuller and plainer explication of some especiall doubts wherewith our learned papists troubleme Remig. Propound them in Gods name by whose holy and powerfull assistance I trust to returne them to the Popes vtter shame to the and euerlasting confusion of al Iesuited papists that shall obstinately beléeue or defend the same CHAP. 5. Of Popish vnwritten traditions Theophilus I will still by your fauour argue as a papist on the behalfe of the papists that so I may more cleerely haue a souÌ„d insight into the truth you Protestants for so we vse to terme you beare vs in hand that the scripture or written word of God conteineth all things necessary for mans saluation but our learned and religious Cardinall Bellarminus assureth vs that the truth is farre otherwise and that many things necessary for mens saluation are onely knowen and receiued by tradition and what he writeth is the Popes ownefaith and consequently the faith of the whole Church for he dedicated his bookes to the Popes holynesse who highly commended and approued them that he made him Cardinall though before but a poore Fryer for his paines Remig. I answere first that I know your Cardinall right well and willingly acknowledge him to be learned as also religious and â—ealous after the manner of his sect but in such sort as Paul was before his conuersion Secondly that your Cardinal doth often acknowledge the truth vnawares against himselfe as doe your other Iesuits one onely assertion I will now cite out of the Iesuite S. R. Robert Parsons is the man in his pretensed answere to the downefall of popery these are his expresse words where if by diuina eloquia we vnderstand holy writ as Bell translateth and Saint Austen séemeth to meane me thinkes he plainely auoucheth that God hath procured euery thing to be cléerely written which to know is necessary to euery mans saluation the same teaceth Saint Syril saying not all things which our Lord did are written but what the writers déemed sufficient as well for manners as for doctrine that by right faith and works we may attaine to the Kingdome of Heauen and Saint Chrisostome what things soeuer are necessary are manifest out of scripture this is our Iesuites owne tale in the best manner he can vtter it whiles he bestirreth himselfe more then a little to answere my booke the downefall of popery out of whose confession and frée graunt such is the force of truth I obserue these memorable and golden lessons First that euery thing necessary for euery mans saluation is contained in the holy scriptures Secondly and this is a thing to be admired comming from a papists mouth that euery point necessary for saluation is plainely and cléerely set downe in holy writ Thirdly that God himselfe appointed all necessary things to be cléerely written Fourthly that Saint Augustine Saint Chrisostome and Saint Cyrill are of mine opinion Fiftly that the Iesuite vnawares iustifieth that doctrine which he puposely laboureth to ouerthrow for as our Lord Iesus said to Saul it is hard for him to kicke against prickes Theoph. The Iesuite S. R. when you rightly name Parsons graunteth all things to be written which are necessary for saluation but not which are necessary for faith and doctrine these are his owne and expresse words for surely the Prophets and Euangelists writing their doctrine for our better remembrance would omit no one point which was necessary to be actually knowne of euery one especially seeing they haue written many things which are not so necessary and this conclusion teacheth Saint Austen when he saith that those things are written which seemeth sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull where I note saith S. R. that he said not which seemeth sufficient to Christian faith but which seemed sufficient to saluation because fewer points suffice to saluation then the Christian faith containeth thus writeth the Iesuite in flat termes freely graunting the scripture to containe all things necessary for saluation but not all things necessary for faith and doctrine Remig. I answere first that the Iesuite granteth as much as I desire when he graunteth the holy scripture to containe all things necessary for our saluation for doubtlesse if all things necessary for saluation be written in the scripture it followeth of necessity that no vnwritten tradition is necessary for the same Secondly that noting is or can be necessary for the Christian faith but the same is also necessary for saluation for otherwise it would follow which no Christian may anouch that a man may be saued without the Christian faith but S. Athanasius in that créede or summary of faith which the Church of Rome receiueth and highly reuerenceth affirmeth resolutely that whosoeuer beleeueth not stédfastly euery iote of the Christian faith shall perish euerlastingly Thirdly that whosoeuer hath the holy scripture hath all things necessary for his saluation Fourthly that séeing the Christian faith by popish doctrine contaïneth many points not necessary for saluation it followeth of necessity that many points of popish so supposed Christian faith are néedlesse in very déede and for that respect with some other our Church of noble England hath abolished the same with spéede for we are the true reformed Catholikes who hold constantly the old Roman religion in euery point but the late start-vp Romish faith is fully replenished with curious sophistications friuolous diâ—â—â—â—â—ns vain inuentions counterfeit myracles grosse errors palpables herâ—stes intollerable superstitions méere foolishnesse and flat leasings Theoph. It is nowhere siad in scripture saith the Iesuite S. R. that all the bookes chapters verses and sentences which in the Bible are admitted for Canonicall are truly Canonicall and Gods pure word without the mixture of mans word and yet is this a point of Christian faith yea hereupon depend all the articles which we gather out of the scripture this is that inuincible Bulwarke saith Parsons which no Protestant can euer batter downe while the world shall endure Remig. I answere first that by our Iesuits doctrine as
A CHRISTIAN DIALOGVE BETWEENE THEOPHILVS A DEFORMED CATHOLIKE IN ROME AND Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining A plaine and succinct resolution of sundry very intricate and important points of religion which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people penned for the solace of all true hearted English subiects and for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings in England or else where so long as they shall persist inordinately in their nouelties heresies errours and most grosse and palpable superstions Ecclesiast Cap. 4. Ver. 28. Striue for the truth vnto death and defend Iustice for thy life and the Lord shall fight for thee against thine enemie Prou. Cap. 12. Ver. 1. He that loueth instruction loueth knowledge but he that hateth correction is a foole LONDON Printed by Nicholas Okes for VVilliam VVelby and are to be sold at his Shop in Paules Church-yard at the signe of the Gray-hound 1609. TO THE RIHGT VVORSHIPFVLL MY APPROVED GOOD FRIENDS SIR STEuen Procter Sir Timothie Whittingham Sir Vincent Skinner and Sir Timothie Hutton Knights and his Maiesties most zealous vpâ—ight painfull Iustices of the Peace HAuing published many bookes in defence of the truth against the aduersaries of the truth the Pope his Cardinals Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings I meane and perceiuing by many arguments that sundry of my deare Country men are not yet fully resolued in certain maine points of religion vpon which all the rest in some sort do depend I haue deemed it a labour very necessary for the common good to dispute those most intricate points pro contra Dialogue-wise that so all difficulties therein may bee cleered all obscurity taken away and the truth plainly laid open before the eyes of euery indifferent reader The Papists most impudently bragge and boast that they maintaine keepe and defend that faith and doctrine which S. Peter and S. Paul deliuered to the Romans that neither their Pope nor their Church can erre that their Church and none but their Church is able to shew and truly to proue a perpetuall vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and Priests that the written word of God containeth not all things necessary to be beleeued vnto saluation for that it sheweth not the holy Bible to be canonical and that originall sinne remaineth only materially in the bodies of the regenerate and not formally in their mindes wils and hearts All these points and euery of them though most difficult and intricate I haue taken in hand to confute relying vpon Gods holy assistance who neuer forsaketh the truth What I haue performed let your wisedomes and others iudge The work such as it is I dedicate to your worships not only to giue as a signe of a gratefull minde for your kinde fauours to me-ward but much more to intimate to the world that inward ioy of mine heart which issueth out of your rare zeale to Gods eternall truth constant loyalty to your most gracious Soueraigne and painefull labours for the good of our Church and Common-weale The almighty giue you many happy yeares vpon earth and vouchsafe to increase his manifold graces in you that you may dayly more and more and others by your Christian example imploy your painefull labours for the aduancement of his glorious Gospell the cutting downe of sinne the extirpation of late start-vp Popery and the rooting out of all traiterous Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings which haue beene and still are too much fauoured and winked at by sundry in authority especially in these North-parts of noble England Dixi. March 21. 1609. Your worships to be commanded THOMAS BELL. A Table of the Chapters contained in this Booke CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and ancient Church of Rome Pag. 1. CHAP. 2. Of the false and erroneous faith of the late Bishops of Rome Pag. 11. CHAP. 3. Of sundry important obiections which seeme to proue the Popes prerogatiue of faith Pag. 26. CHAP. 4. Of the Succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome Pag. 66. CHAP. 5. Of Popish vnwritten Traditions Pag. 102. CHAP. 6. Of the state of the regenerate with the particular adiuncts of the same Pag. 121. CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and auncient Church of Rome Theophilus GOD blesse you Father Remigius I hope you will this day yeeld great comfort to my distressed heart for I haue often heard that you are both proâ—undly learned and charitably affected to all your Christian neighbours so as for your great learning you are very able and for your rare charitie euer ready to giue good counsell to such as stand in neede of you I therefore for Christs sake beseech you to shew me the ready way to heauen Remig. To beleeue rightly and liue christianly is your very path-way to Heauen but it is a straight and narrow gate and few do finde the same Theoph. Alas my good father then shall more be damned then saued God forbid it should be so Remig. That which God hath decreed man cannot withstand Many saith Christ are called but few are chosen Striue to enter in at the straight gate for many will séeke to enter in and shall not be able Yet our most mercifull and iust God will condemne none to eternall death but for their notorious sinnes and iust deserts Theoph. We may exclaime with holy Polycarâ—e ô God to what a world hast thou reserued vs c. Now euery one can giue good words both in the Pulpit and else where but badder life and wickeder dealing was neuer more frequent in any towne or City The Catholiques for good life and meritorious actes are the mirror of the Christian world Remig. Whom doe you call Catholikes I am a Catholique my selfe Theoph. The Pope his Cardinals his Monkes his Fryers his holy Nunnes and all such as agree in faith and doctrine with the Church of Rome Remig. If you speake of Pope Formosus Pope Iohn degraded him and brought him to laicall state againe after he had béene the Bishop of Portua Hée further tooke him sworne that hée neither should be Bishop again not euer returne to the Citie of Rome Howbeit Pope Martin absolued him from his oath and after a few yéeres he did notonely come to Rome but there was made the Pope If you speake of Pope Stephanus yâ— sixt he persecuted Pope Formosus euen after his death He called a Councell and disanulled all the decrées of Pope Formosus his predecessour He caused his body to be brought into his CoÌ„sistory the papall induments to be taken away a laicall habite to be put on she dead corps two fingers of his right hand to be cut off and that done forsooth his body to be put againe into the graue Meane you Pope Sergius the third he caused Pope Formosus who now had béen dead almost ten whole yéeres to be taken out of his tombe and to be set in a chaire with pontificall attire vpon his backe that done he commanded his head to be
set downe by his Holinesse to the contrary by wrong information giuen appeale euen from the Pope as Clemens vnto his holines as Peter for this cause doth the Iesuite Parsons or S. R. in his pretended answere to the downe â—all of Popery proclaime it lustily to the work that Bishops must not examine the doctrine which the Pope â—â—â—inereth iâ—ditially out of S. Peters chaire as suprethe pastor of Gods Church but onely that wherein he vttereth his owne priuate opinion For this cause doe the Popes decrées roundly tell vs that it is sacriledge to dispute of the Popes power So then on the one side the Pope may be deposed if he speake write or hold hereticall opinions as a priuate man but on the other side whatsoeuer the Pope shall define or decrée as Pope and publike person that we must receiue reuerence and constantly beléeue otherwise we must be adiudged Heretiques and be burnt with fire and saggot at a stake What a religion eat yee this the Pope may decrée things at his owne good pleasure either as a priuate man or as a publique person the one way he cannot erre as Papists doe and must beléeue but the otherway hee both may erre and hath de facto erred in very déede it therefore standeth with all reason piety and good conscience that the Papists shall examine his decrées whether they procéede from the Pope as a publique person or as a priuate man leâ—t they receiue errors for faith falshood for truth poyson for wholesome medicine Howbeit they must beléeue all things resolutely they may doubt or dispute of nothing curiously lest they be accused of sacriledâ—â— or heresie For if the Pope when he spake or wrote sate in S. Peters chaire at Rome an old rotten and worme-eaten thing which the silly people adore reuerence and kisse as my selfe sometimes haue done and Saint Peter perhaps neuer saw or knew the same then the case is cléere the Popes decrée is as sound as the holy Gospel and procéedeth from the holy Ghost Theoph. All this is very true and we are taught to beleeue that Saint Peter sate in that chaire indeede and that it hath beene reuerently kept from Saint Peters death to this day insomuch that they are likewise taught to bring girdles to touch the said chaire which therefore are called Saint Peters girdles for the safe deliuerance of women which are with child and doe vse them neither did I euer heare to this day that any Pope taught false Doctrine or decreed any vntruth out of Saint Peters chaire Remig. Whether Saint Peter euer sate in that chaire or not it is not much materiall this one thing is certaine that it is this day most superstitiously abused and that the real sitting in the material chaire cannot preserue him that sitteth in it from false doctrine or erroneous faith whereof more at large hereafter as your demandes or difficulties shal minister fit occasion that many Popes haue béene Heretiques and flat Apostataes is already proued out of your owne best approued Doctors Now will I likewise proue vnto you God willing euen by the expresse testimonies of most renowned Popish writers that sundry Popes haue taught and decréed false doctrine and that as publique persons sitting in Saint Peters chaire as they call it and that done I will answere to all your obiections against the same M. Gerson sometime Chauncellour of the famous Uniuersity of Paris and a man of high estéeme in the Councel of Constance writeth plainely and auoucheth it for a constant knowne truth that Pope Iohn the 22. of that name taught publiquely that the soules of the iust doe not sée God till the day of generall Doome as also that his false doctrine was publiquely condemned with the sound of trumpets euen before Philip then King of France Yea Adrianus who was Bishop of Rome himselfe doth constantly auouch the same truth as testifieth Alphonsus a zealous and learned Popish Writer in these expresse wordes Nouissime fertur de Iohanne 22. quod c. Last of all it is reported of Pope Iohn the 22. that hee publiquely taught declared and commaunded all to hold the same that the soules of the iust before the day of iudgement generall haue not the stole which is the cleare and faciall vision of God and he is reported to haue induced the vniuersity of Paris to this that none should take degrée of Theology in the same but those that did first sweare to defend this error and to adhere to it for euer Thus writeth Adrian who was himselfe Pope or Bishop of Rome And Alphonsus a man of good credite with the papists after he had rekoned vp fiue heresies setteth downe this for the â—iâ—th heresie viz that the soules of the iust doe not see God till the day of doome ascribing the said heresie to the Armenians as to the authors thereof and to the Greekes together with Pope Iohn as the patrons and defenders of the same So then it is cleare as the noone day that the Bishops of Rome both may erre and de facto haue erred not onely as priuate men but also as Popes and publike persons in their iudiciall sentences and decrées Bellarmine your romish Iesuits and Cardinal séeing the force of this testimony and maâ—king well that it doth ouerthrowe the highest point of their late start vp popery doth bestirâ—e himselfe more then a little in defence of popish faith he would gladly perswade his reader that their Pope Iohn erred onely as a priuate man and not as a Pope or Bishop of Rome which is a subtile distinction but falsly inuented to seduce the silly people therewith lest they should forsake the Pope his new religion I proue it many wayes first because Pope Adrian himselfe saith docuit hee taught Secondly because he saith Publicé publiquely Thirdly because he saith Mandauit hée commanded all to hold it Fourthly because none could bee made Graduates in the Uniuersity which held not this opinion Fiftly because euery Graduate was sworne to desend it and to hold it for euer So then the Pope erred de facto euen in his publike decrée of faith and that euen by the consent of Adrian who sometime was Pope himselfe yea who for learning and knowledge was one of the rarest Popes that euer were at Rome What say you to this testimony M. Theophilus doe ye not sée it euidently proued euen by the testimony of approued Popish writers that the Pope both may erre and de facto hath erred and that not onely as a priuate man but also as a publique person Theoph. Your reasons are so strong so pithy and so plaine indeed that I know not in the world how in truth to answere them they make me to stagger in my old Romish faith and to doubt of that whereof I neuer doubted all my life before for we Catholiques haue euer holden it for an article of our Catholique faith that the Pope as Pope
seeme truely and sincerely to relate I will thinke vpon them they enforce me to stagger and to doubt of the Catholike saith Remig. I deale sincerely with the papists I protest vpon my saluation for I hold it a great sinne to bely the diuell of hell but God forbid that ye should doubt of the Catholike faith Theoph. I remember well your distinction of deformed and reformed Catholikes I meane the deformed Catholike faith which I now suspect to be the romish faith of our late Popes I am not able to gainesay or withstand the truth your reasons are so strong your testimonies so plaine your applications so euident your grounds so inuincible that I cannot doe withall but needes I must giue great credit to the same Remig. You shall yet heare stranger matters of your Popes hearken to them attentiuely Pope Celestine the third of that name erred as Pope and publike person in his iudiciall and publike decrée this to be so Alphonsus aboue named that famous and religious papist is a constant witnesse in these words Celestinum Papa crasse circa matrimonium fidelium quorum alâ—er labitur in haeresim res est omnibus manifesta neque hic Celestini error talis fuit qui soli negligentiae imputari debuit ita vt illum errasse dicamus velut priuatam personam non vt Papam qui in qualibet re seria definienda consulere debet viros doctos quoniam huiâ—smodi Celistini definitio habebatur in antiquis decretalibus in capite laudabilem titulo de conuersione infidelium quam ego ipse vidi legi That Pope Celestine erred about matrimony of the faithfull whereof the one is fallen into heresie it is a thing so manifest as all men know the same neither was this error of Pope Celestine such as may be imputed to sole negligence so as we may thinke he erred as a priuate man and not as Pope who ought in euery serious decrée to aske councell of the learned for that decrée of Celestine was in the old decretall epistles in the chapter Laudabilem which I my selfe haue séene and read out of these word of Alphonsus who was a man highly renowned among the papists I obserue many worthy and memorable points First that Pope Celestine erred and that not as a priuate man but euen as Pope and publike person Secondly that he erred in a very serious matter euen in a matter of faith to wit that matrimony was so dissolued by reason of heresie that the faithfull man or woman might marry again the hereticall party liuing which thing saith Alphonsus a great learned man and a zealous papist was manifest to euery man to be an heresie and the popish late councell of Trent hath defined so to be Thirdly that this decrée and definition of Pope Celestine was in those daies enrolled in the Popes decretalls Fourthly that Alphonsus both saw and read the same decrée Fiftly that the said decrée cannot this day be found among the Popes decretall epistles so then the Popes vse to change not onely their faith but also their decrées Theoph. I see well that simple people are shamfully abused and that the late Popes haue egregiously seduced them for this is a case so cleare as euery child may perceiue the same that which the Pope and his Iesuits tell vs of his double person is but atrick of Legerdemarie For Alphonsus saith plainely and resolutely I see it cannot bee denied that Pope Celestine erred as Pope and publique person and not as a priuate man Remig. Let this testimony neuer bee forgotten for it ouerthroweth and beateth flat to the ground the chiefest bulwarke and strongest sort of all popish faith It condenmeth the Pope and his doctrine both affirmatiuely negatiuely Affirmatiuely because it aâ—outheth the Pope to haue erred as Pope and publique person Negatiuely because it flatly denieth him to haue erred as a priuate person But there is another point in this testimony and that of great importance which may not bée forgotten I know not if you haue marked the same Theoph. What is the point I beseech you Remig. It is a kind of Iugling and Legierdemaine where with the Popes and their denoted vassals haue seduced the world a long time they alter and change their Romish faith and doctrine at their owne good will and pleasure and to hide and couer the nakednesse of their Popes publike errors hereticall decrées they cashéere and make away such former decrées of former Popes as they cannot for shame approue or by any honest meanes defend the same For as Alphonsus here telleth vs this hereticall decrée and definition which Celestine made as Pope and not as a priuate person was in yâ— old decretall epistles but this day cannot be found Theoph. This point indeed I did not obserue because Alphonsus saith he saw and read the same but not that it is not this day to be found Remig. Alphonsus saith he saw the decrée and read it in the old decretals and nameth the chapt eitâ— where it was whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand that in the latter decretals he could not finde the same He further insinuateth to vs that albeit we cannot finde the same iudiciall sentence in the decretals nowadaies yet may we assure our selues of the truth thereof for that himselfe both had séene and read the same in the old decretals for if hee had found the same in the later printed decretals he would not haue giuen the reader this cauâ—at viz. that it was set downe in the old decretals in the Chapter Laudabilem and consequently that the deniall thereof would not serue to excuse the Pope Nay I will yet shew you a cléerer case if any cléerer can be Theoph. I know not doubtlesse how a cleerer case can be found yet for the better confirmation of the truth I pray you withdraw not your paine Remig. Saint Cyprian was an ancient Father alearned Writer and a glorious Martyr of our Lord Iesus and for all that he both beléeued and publiquely declared that the Bishops of Rome might erre as well as other Bishops their brethren not onely in their priuate opinions but also in their definitiue sentences iudiciall decrées For first though Cornelius then Bishop of Rome together with the whole national Synode of all the Bishopps of Italy had made a slat decrée touching rebaptization and secondly though Pope Stephanus had confirmed the same decrée and stricktly commanded it to be obserued and thirdly though our Papists too much Iesuited and Italianized doe of late daies obstinately affirme as appeareth by the notes of the Rhemists vpon the new Testament that their Pope cannot erre when hee defineth iudicially yet this notwithstanding S. Cyprian both practically and iudicially giueth vs to vnderstand that in his time the Bishop of Rome had no such priuiledge as he this day arrogantly Antichristianly taketh vpon him for we Cyprian stoutly and resolutely withstood the decrée of Pope tephanus who at that time
handle the holy Mysteries S. Hierome in like manner saith of Hilarius the heretike that he could neither baptize nor administer the Eucharist because he was but a Deacon wheÌ„ he went out of the church and what are you but Deacons nay what are you but meere Lay-men for you are neither consecrated after the old manner nor confirmed by the Pope as the Iesuits beare the world in hand Remig. I answere first that if méere Lay-men should presume in our Churches either to preach teach or handle the holy mysteries they could not escape condigâ—e punishment according to their demerites Secondly that the want of your greasing and other beggeâ—ly Ceremonies wherewith the primitiue Church was neuer acquainted as holy writ teacheth vs cannot make the consecration of our Bishops vnlawfull Thirdly yâ— our Bishops are consecrated confirmed according to the ancient manner of the primitiue Church for three things onely are necessary all which God be thanked for it are this day practised in our Church of England to wit election of the whole Congregation confirmation of the Prince and consecration with godly praiers and imposition of hands Of the last of these thrée that is of the imposition of hands with praier mention is made to Timothie and else where For the confirmatioÌ„ of the Prince and not of the Pope which is the second point this is enough for the tryall viz. that these thrée Popes Pelagius the second Seâ—erinus and Benedictus the second and all other Bishops of Rome till the sayd Benedict inclusiuè were euer elected and confirmed by the Emperours commandement which verity is freely confessed in expresse termes by foure famous Popish writers who therefore are and ought to be of more credit and force against the Papists then any other authors whatsoeuer The names of the popish Doctors are these Baptista Platina Bartholomaeus Carranxa Anastatius Bibliothecarius and Onuphrius Panuinius Piatina hath these words Niâ— enim tum in eligendo Pontifice actuÌ„ erat nisi eius electionem Imperator approbasset for at that time which was about the yeere of our Lord God â—â—0 nothing was done effectually concerning the election of the Bishop of Rome vnlesse the Emperour had confirmed the same Touching the creation of Seuerinus for the other testimony was of Pelagius the same Platina writeth in this manner Vana enim tunc habebatur Cleri ac populi electio nisi Imperatores aut eorum Exarchi confirmassent For the election of the Clergie and the people was of no force at all in those dayes vnlesse the Emperours or their Lieutenants had confirmed the same this was done about the yéere 637. Concerning the creation or making of Benedict Platina hath these words ad hunc Constantius Imperator sanctionem misit vt deinceps quem Clerus populus Exercitusque Romanus in Pontificem delegislet eundem statim verum Christi Vicarium esse omnes crederent nulla aut Constantinopolitani Principis aut Italiae Exarchi expectat authoritate vt antea fieri coÌ„sueuerat id enim ratum erat in creando Pontifice quod Princeps confirmaslet vel qui eius vices in Italia gerebat The Emperour Constantine sent a decrée to this Pope that whomsoeuer the Clergy people and Romaine Souldiers should henceforth choose for their Bishop all people should by and by beléeue him to be the Uâ—car of Christ scilicet if they would This was done in anno 68â— Bartholomaeus Carranza a famous Dominican Frier hath the very same assertion ad verbum Anastasius and Onuphrius haue these expresse words Pontifices qui deinde fuerant creati conâ—ecrati sunt sine Constantinopolitani Imperatoris iussione The Popes or Bishops of Rome that liued afterward were made and consecrated without the Emperour of Constantinople his coÌ„maund as if they had said in the old time and auncient Church no Bishop of Rome could haue bin admitted at any time vnles he had brought letters patents froÌ„ the Emperour though now yâ— practise be farre otherwise Now M. Theophilus tell me what you gather out of this discourse Theoph. Out of this doctrine of this famous papists I gather to the confusion of the late Bishops of Rome their Iesuits and all Iesuited papists these three euidents golden and most necessary corollaries First that the vulgar and common sort of people are grosly deceiued when they terme popery the old religion and repute them for the auncient Catholikes for we are indeede the true and auncient Catholikes I put my selfe in the number because God now hath made me a true reformed Catholike and the papists are become flat heretiques in many points of the true faith though not apostataes from the whole For this Benedict the second could not be made Bishop of Rome 684. yeeres after Christs sacred aduent without the Emperours letters Patents so then the Emperours had the soueraignty ouer the Bishops of Rome for the space almost of seuen hundren yeeres after Christ so long the Popes acknowledged the Emperours for their soueraigne Lords as without whose letters Patents they could haue no iurisdiction in the Church I adde as consectary hereunto that as in ciuill causes many are debarred from their lawfull inheritance through the violent dealing of mighty men euen so we the true reformed Catholikes haue beene many yeeres excluded from the free vse of our owne Church and Sacraments by the force violence and tyrannie of the blood-thirsty Romish Bishops and partly by remissenes of sundry Emperours who vpon a blind zeale not grounded vpon Gods word yeelded vp their soueraigne rights vnto them and as temporal men are in time restored to their auncient right by zealous and godly Magistrates euen so were we and are we God make vs thankefull for it by the goodnesse of God and most Christian Princes King Henry the eight King Edward the sixt Queene Elizabeth and King IAMES our most gratious soueraigne now happily regnant ouer vs restored to the old Christian Catholike and Apostolike religion and with all Christian freedome placed again in our owne Churches the spirituall birth-right of our selues and our ancestors Secondly thath our Bishops in England are made and consecrated according to the auncient Christian Catholike Apostolike and old Roman maner that is to say by the letters Patents of the Prince Thirdly that the Emperours of Constantinople for the space of 200. yeares and odde after the dissolution of the Empire in the west had still the soueraignty ouer the Bishop of Rome for the west Empire was dissolued in Anno 471 and Benedict the second obteined of the Emperour Constantine in Anno 684 that the Bishops of Rome might from thenceforth be chosen confirmed and enioy their iurisdiction without the commandement and letters Patents of the Emperour Remig. You haue marked well the discourse and for all that haue not obserued one point of great consequence Theophilus What is that I beseech you heartily Remig. The late Popes or Bishops of Rome tel