that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
Syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly You your self make the first part a question by it selfe for at the margent ouer against the first part Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible you write I will answer It was not which words can haue no Construction if you referre them to both parts or at all to the latter part to wit Whether the names can be a shewed M. Fisher. Let vs heare a Syllogisme D. Featly In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question and require mee to proue either you deny both parts or one onely if both I am to proue both one after the other if one onely then you grant the other A copulatiue is not true vnlesse both parts bee true Doe you deny both or one onely M. Fisher. I say they are but one for the later part is to expound the former for I meane by visible so visible that the names of such visible Protestants may bee shewed D. Featly This is to confound two distinct questions in one For a Church may haue bin visible and yet the names of such visible Professours not now to bee shewed M. Fisher. They are my words and I am best able to expound my owne meaning D. Featly An exposition which the construction of the words will not beare is not to be receiued But the construction of the words will not beare this your expositioÌ„ Therfore it is not to be receiued And is a coniunction copulatiue must adde some-what to that which goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men M. Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this if there were visible men certainly they may bee named Name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all ages D. Featly It seemes you are Nominalls rather then Realls you stand so much vpon naming Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professours of our Religions in all ages for ought I knowe the best way for vs is to bee all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all ages certainly they may bee named D. Featly That is a Non sequitur for the reasons beforenamed by mee What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no names at all M. Bolton Yet they haue descriptions and may bee knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Authour cannot bee named nor particularly described Yet the Authour was a visible man Are all visible mens names vpon Record Are all the Records that were in former times now to bee produced Heer diuers of Master Fishers company called Names names names D. Featly What Will nothing content you but a Buttery-booke You shall haue a Buttery-booke of names if you will stay a while Heere diuers of the Auditors wished D. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation vnlesse Master Fisher would suffer him according to the lawes of all disputation first to conclude the first part of his copulatiue Queâ—stion and then the second Yet Doctor Featly ' desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand and conclude both parts of the copulatiue Question in one Syllogisme D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall is so visible that the Names of some Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the Protestants Church is so visible that the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith ceaseth D. Featly You haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you knowe my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue vntill his second Coming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shall bee so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Therefore it hath been so visible that the Names of the Professers thereof may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacy called Petitio principij D. Featly A demonstration à causâ or à priori is not petitio principii But such is my Argument Therefore my Argument is not petitio principii Is it not a sounder Argument to prooue the Visibility of the Professers from the truth of their faith than as you doo the truth of your faith from the Visibility of Professers Visible Professers argue not a right faith Hereticks Mahumetans and Gentiles haue visible professers of their impieties yet wil it not hence follow that they haue a right beleef On the contrary wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintains the true faith shall haue alwaies Professers more or less visible M. Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori D. Featly Shall you prescribe mee my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better than an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemy to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapons I list take you what buckler you can M. Fisher. A Proof à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori M. Alesbury Heer M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceeds à priori Is not a demoÌ„stration of the effect froÌ„ the cause more excellent than of the cause by the effect From this place and so forward it was agreed by the Disputants that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common Writer and that the Opponent Dr. Featly should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogism and the Respondent Mr. Fisher to his seuerall Answers Dr. Featly That Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee is so visible that the Names of the Professours thereof may be produced and shewed But the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible that their Names may be produced M. Fisher. I deny the Minor D. Featly That Church whose faith is eternal and perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible as
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
Prince Castilians Courtier namely Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia extra anni solisque vias To vndertake to make a demonstration consisting ex veris primis immediatis prioribus notioribus causis conclusionis is all one saith Ludouicus Viues as if to cure a most dangerous disease a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples the first whereof is found in India the second amongst the Ceres the third in the Riphean Hilles and the fourth in the nest of a Phenix If that demonstration which they call potissima the soueraigne demonstration and non parâ—iell containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe consisting of all tearmes reciprocall and all propositions inabled and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de omni per se et quatenus ipsum were any where in vse it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks the most certaine Science and fullest of euident demonstrations but Pererius the Iesuite and others with him vndertake to prooue that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude that such absolute demonstrations exalted to the highest degree of necessity presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding are meere imaginary speculations Let the Philosophers and Logicians among themselues end this controuersie I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side But setting aside that Idea of demonstration and speaking of such demonstrations à priori or à causâ as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration as demonstrations go current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick The Church holding the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith c. For the Maior or first proposition it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before in the setting downe of the state of the Question touching the Visibility of the Church assertion the fourth and partly vpon that Text of the Apostle With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse and with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true because this eternall faith is the formall cause constituting and making the true Church for as Laurentius rightly argueth Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam quatâ—nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei Romani c. sedquatenus sunt fideles ergo fides doctrina fidei est causa formalis interna Ecclesiae et per eam Ecclesia constituitur et per eandem dignoscitur Men make not the Church simply as they are Europeans or Romanes or Africans or Britans or the like but as they are of the faithfull or holding the faith therefore faith and the Doctrine thereof is the formall and internall cause of the Church and by it the Church is made a Church and distinguished from all other societies Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith a proper attribute or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demonstrated of the proper subiect the true Church by the proper and neerest cause the eternity of faith and what more is to be required in a true demonstration à priori You will say this demonstrateth that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible but not that the Protestant Church I reply either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church or not if it be supposed to bee the true Church then hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted then you should haue primarily denied this and put vs to the proofe of it which beeing prooued would inferre the Visibility but this you did not and I think durst not in the Conference for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced yet now since the Conference you are growne so hardy as to deny it and therefore thus I proue it A Church holding professing entirely the perpetuall faith needfull to saluation is a true Church The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith c. Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur. The Maior is confessed of all sides and must be so because there is no saluation without the Church where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed there must needs bee the Church The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed The Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the perpetuall faith c. The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth The Assumption is thus confirmed The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures contained in the three Creeds The Apostles Creed the Nicen Creed and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures and contained in the three Creeds and foure Councels aboue-named Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints In this last Syllogisme the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies First by the publique profession and practice of the Church of England and other Protestant Churches Secondly by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith out of the principles aboue-named Thirdly by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe And first it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches that the Protestant Doctrine is that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued vnder paine of eternall damnation which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named and for the foure first generall Councels there is no Protestant who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood if hee be cald thereunto Secondly there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance where and when they will we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field On the contrarie besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture therefore according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques Cùm
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
Thus possessed and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions hee with much adoe by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes procures a Conference wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White and my selfe to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions both to prooue the Visibility of our Church and disprooue theirs On the contrary he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs to hinder speedie and direct proceedings and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church First hee heard that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church beeing a point of faith was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors as the Iesuite required but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word as is confessed by learned Papists Secondly that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced and prooued out of good Authors because neither all mens names euer were vpon record nor are all antient Records preserued to this day neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant Thirdly that notwithstanding the Popish brag that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther yet you were not able to name any Countrey City Village or Hamlet nay not any man who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ either professed your trent-Trent-faith in generall or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular Fourthly that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church was á priori by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures of which faith God promiseth in his Word that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end Fiftly that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith Iews Mahumetanes Gentiles and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks haue visible professors of their impieties yet are they all of a wrong beliefe if of any on the contrary the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church because the true faith cannot bee in a Church which professeth it not openly or priuately therefore the prime and maine question of all is of the right beliefe of the primitiue and Catholique faith whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it and not of a Catalogue of names Sixtly that an offer was made to name some eminent persons which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine and opposed the Romish errors either when they came in or not long after and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations Lastly that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles and vrged you againe and againe yea and adiured you also to answer directly whether they taught our faith or yours yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe which hee might well interpret to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause And now let the discreet Reader iudge whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause at least in that particular of which only he seemed to doubt of Shortly after the Conference M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing to the right honorable the Earl of WARVVICK The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter RIGHT HONOVRABLE LORD I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew against mee and my companion that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in the Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this that The true Church was alwaies so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named but the Protestants was the true Church Wee refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferd the Question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily neglected Certainely heereby they are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it For hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church that is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to bee and the Church whose faith is eternall and vnchanged must bee is able to name her Professors in all Ages either for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages or else they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yeelding as they did to shew the continual Visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they stick in the first Age alone refusing to name their professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tried May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth and was it euer heard that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogism or Induction were fully propounded Very nobly therefore and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anotheâ— meeting not doubting that your owne partie within three or foure daies would be content to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a second triall which when they haue performed wee shall not faile to encounter with them either by way of speech or writing as your Lordship all things considered shal think fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of truth But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and importâ—nt request the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned Thus expecting the issue heereof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine the first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ IOHN FISHER Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter IN perusing this Letter of yours I could not but think of the old riddle Hom◠〈…〉 videns
telling him there was no hope of saluation without the Church there was no Catholique Church but theirs and to beleeue the Catholique Church was the Article of his Creed and by it there could no other Church bee meant but the Church of Rome because it could not bee prooued by all the Protestants in the Kingdome that they had any Church before Luther This Gentleman beeing much troubled in his minde with these and the like suggestions who all his life time had bin and professed himself a religious Protestant becam now more sick in minde then body and if by Gods mercifull goodnesse he had not recouered of this sicknesse it is to be feared he had fallen both from his Mother Church and his former faith as some of the neerest of his owne bloud to his great griefe haue lately beene seduced by like inticements After his recouery beeing still much troubled in minde with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests he repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde Knight who by reason of his alliance and long acquaintance with him gaue the best satisfaction he could to his said Cousin Master Bugges who seemed to take content in such his conferences and to be well satisfied by him in all points But the Popish Priests and Iesuites not desisting to creepe-in further where they had once made a breach perseuered still in questioning him Where his Church was before Luther Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynde and required some further satisfaction of him concerning that demand And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynde told him It was first in Christ and the Apostles consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church for 600 yeeres after Christ after which time some errors crept into the Church as diseases into a mans body so that the Church which Luther and we acknowledge was in generall the same Christian Church as his body was the same substantiall body beeing now well and lately sick though different in the qualities And for the better strengthening of his mind the said Sir Humfrey Lynde inuited him to his house in the Countrey thereby the better to preuent the daily sollicitation of those dangerous seducers And after his returne to London the said Sir Humfrey Lynde going to Master Bugges his house in Drury-lane to visit him found Master Fisher the Iesuite there where after some debates about Religion and the visibility of the Church M. Fisher called for pen inke and set down this question in terminis thereto adding vnder his hand that he would answer vpon it negatiuely as challenging and expecting opposers deliuering also the paper into the hands of the said Sir Humfrey Lynde who vpon view of it answered that it was an historicall question and not so proper for disputation But Master Fisher vrging it Sir Humfrey told him if he would goe to Doctor Whites where formerly he had beene the said Doctor would easily resolue those doubts Which beeing refused by the Iesuite the said Sir Humfrey did then returne him his paper againe and so left him About two daies after Master Bugges repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde and intreated him for his satisfaction to giue Master Fisher a meeting saying that Master Fisher had againe told him that he would maintaine what he had set down and that our Diuines could not prooue our Church visible before Luthers time Whereupon Sir Humfrey told him that D. White and Doctor Featly were to dine with him vpon Fryday following and if after dinner Master Fisher would come thither with foure or six at the most they should bee admitted for his sake and his wises who by reason of such sollicitation were troubled in their mindes and satisfaction should be giuen as occasion required And these were the true causes of the meeting as is before declared Vpon which Fryday beeing the twenty seuenth of Iune 1623. Master Fisher Master Sweet Iesuites and some others with them came to Sir Humfrey Lyndes house into a little dining-roome where they found the aforesaid Master Bugges his wife and children and others of Sir Humfreys friends that had then dined with him together with some others also whose comming in as the said Sir Humfrey did not expect so hee could not with ciuility put them forth his house but did instantly cause his doores to bee locked vp that no more might enter in notwithstanding which his command some others also came in scatteringly after the conference began At the same time and place Doctor White and Doctor Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying a while after had notice giuen them that Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites were in the next roome ready to conferre with them touching a question set downe by Master Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible and especially in the ages going before Luther And whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had bin sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point the said Doctors were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dareth encounter them in this point A Relation of vvhat passed in a Conference touching the visibility of the Church Iune xxvii 1623. AT the beginning of this meeting when the disputants were set D. Featly drew out the paper in which the question aboue rehearsed was written with these words in the margent viz. I will answer that it was not demanded of M. Fisher whether this were his own hand Which after he had acknowledged D. Featly began as followeth D. Featly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To this vniuersall demand requiring rather an historicall large volume then a Syllogisticall briefe dispute we answer that 1. Although diuine infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane history but vpon diuine reuelation as is confessed by your owne Schoolmen and expresly by Cardinall Bellarmine Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam cui subesse potest falsum Humane histories and records beget onely an humane faith or rather credulity subiect to error not a diuine and infallible beliefe which must bee built vpon surer ground 2. Although this question be grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals for a Church may haue bin visible yet not the names of all visible professors thereof now to be shewed and prooued out of good Authors there might bee millions of professors yet no particular and authenticall record of them by name Records there might bee many in antient time yet not now extant at least for vs to come by Yet wee will not refuse to deale with you in our owne question if you in like manner will
vndertake the like task in your own defence and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question which we now propound vnto you heere in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent was in all ages visible especially in the first 600 yeeres And whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors Heere D. Featly reading this question through a mistake in stead of out of good Authors read out of Gods Word Whereunto M. Fisher replied No I will prooue it out of good Authors Then said one that sate at the Table By no meanes can M. Fisher endure to demonstrate his Church out of Gods Word D. Featly God is a good Author M. Fisher but it is true I did mistake What say you to the condition Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages out of good Authors M. Fisher. I will so you prooue the Visibility of your Church Heere an order was set downe that D. Featly should for an houre and a halfe oppose M. Fisher in this question and afterwards M. Fisher for the last houre and halfe should oppose D. White in the other question for the Visibility of the Romane Church M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute I desire these conditions may bee assented vnto on both sides 1. That all bitter speeches be forborne 2. That none speake but disputants Which conditions were well approoued by the whole company D. Featly I desire a third to bee added thereunto viz. that both the Opponent and Respondent be tyed to Logick Forme M. Fisher. I hold not that condition fit because the company vnderstands not Logick Forme D. Featly There are of the company that vnderstand Logick as well as you or I and the rest are men of vnderstanding and reason therefore I am resolued to keepe Logick Forme and expect from you direct answers M. Fisher. You your selfe confesse that this question is not to be handled syllogistically D. Featly I said indeed that it required rather a large historicall volume then a briefe syllogisticall Dispute the more you too blame to propound such a question and my taske the harder yet beeing propounded as a question I will keep my self to Logicke Forme But before I propound my argument I craue leaue in fewe words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the ignorant and vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world before his time beleeued as you doe That your Church hath not bin onely visible in all Ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious which is such a notorious vntruth that I heer offer before all this company to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my self ouercome if you can produce out of good Authours I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any City Parish or Hamlet within 500. yeeres next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to bee named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these poynts of Popery in speciall to wit 1. That there is a treasury of Saints merits and superaboundant satisfactions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs institutions to receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kindes 3. That the publicke seruice of God in the Church ought or may bee celebrated in an vnknowne Tongue 4. That priuate Masses wherein the Priest sayth Edite et bibite ex hoc omnes Eate and drinke yee all of this and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely are according to Christs institution 5. That the Popes pardons are requisite or vsefull to release soules out of Purgatory 6. That the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister M. Sweet These are scholasticall points not fundamentall D. White Those things which are defined in your Councell of Trent are to you matters fundamentall Whatsoeuer article denied makes a man an hereticke is fundamentall But the deniall of any of these makes a man an hereticke Therefore to you euery one of these articles is fundamentall To which argument nothing being answered D. Featly proceeded 7. That extreme vnction is a Sacrament properly so called 8. That wee may worship God by an Image 9. That the sacred Hoast ought to bee eleuated or carried in solemne procession 10. That Infidels and impious persons yea Rats and Mice may eate the body of Christ. 11. That all ecclesiasticall power dependeth of the Pope 12. That hee cannot erre in matter of faith 13. That hee hath power to canonize Saints 14. To institute religious orders 15. To depose Kings c. which latter points and the like I leaue to D. White to mayntaine against you when according to your promise you doe vndertake to name visible and legible Romanists in all ages M. Fisher. After you haue proued your Church visible in all ages and named the professours thereof I will satisfy you in your particulars D. Featly In the meane-while name but one Father but one Writer of note who held the particulars aboue-named for 500. yeeres after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly nothing was answered Sr. Humfrey Lynde M. Sweet proue mee but this one point out of Saint Augustine namely Transubstantiation or satisfy such arguments as I shall bring you out of Saint Augustine to the contrary and I will promise you to goe to Masse To which M. Sweet made no other answer then this That is not now to the question M. Fisher. I expect your argument Doctor Featly D. Featly There are two meanes only to proue any thing by necessary inference to wit a Syllogisme and an Induction other formes of argument haue no force but as they are reducible to these I proue the visibility of our Church by both and first by a Syllogisme That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall was euer visible in the professours thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church was euer visible in the Professours thereof M. Fisher. You conclude not the question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your question first Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can bee shewed I haue concluded in my Syllogisme the first Quaere M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the question it is but one question D. White Where there are two propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two questions But heer are two propositions with two distinct vtrums to wit whether the Protestant Church c. and whether the names c. Therefore there are two Quaeres or parts in the question M. Fisher. Conclude any thing
the Catholique Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the Names can bee shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What Answer you to the Conclusion also This is a Strain of new Logick M. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named and not to bee named What are Professers nominable or innominable to the eternity of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny that the Protestant Church is so eternall as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this Proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirm the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The Summe of your former Answer was that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent And first my Minor is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the Antecedent that it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute which was as I said before that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the Minor is pertinent That Minor Proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent Note that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other suggesting priuately and amending what they thought fit Which breeding much delay irkesom to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher M. Chamberlane standing by said Let him alone for he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed M Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Minor proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it doe inferre the conclusion yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained I deny the Maior Heere the Disputants iarred and so the Writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained But this Minor together with the Maior directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per directa media Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa yet not addirectum finem that is direct and not direct for Media are said to be directa only ratione finis in regard of the end M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio a genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs bee perpetuall Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus D. Good M. Sweet you once learned better Logick in Cambridge then you shew now Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names Where are your names D. White sayd D. White This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation you will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument and therefore I require you M. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each party to haue an houre and a
half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot and by his silence granteth it Thirdly the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny were visible men yet cannot their proper names be shewed proued out of good Authors for good Authors report they had no proper names at all With this rather tentatiue then serious instance M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt but Master Boulton though he confessed in effect that they were gon at the common Law yet he sought to relieue them by the Chanâ—â—â—â— by saying that Though those people had no proper names yet they had some descriptions and might bee knowne by some periphrasis But it may bee replied 1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name 2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors any particular description of these men whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another but onely a generall description that They are a people in Africa neere the hill Atlas which haue no proper names and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages in a generall description of certaine men who opposed certaine errors against and besides the Doctrine of Scripture and especially the errors of the Church of Rome Fourthly the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali was a visible man but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali or headless because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne And heer if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne a man might truly say that both himselfe and his asâ—istant Master Sweet and their good friend at a dead 〈◊〉 Master Boulton were all nonplussed with this argument for they replied nothing to it Fiftly the falshood of Master Fishers supposall the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances as First there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knee to Baal yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors Secondly there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises and their false doctrine or at least assented not vnto it in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Thirdly the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches were visible men yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Fourthly they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kinde onely were visible men yet the names of them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors Fiftly there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Sixtly Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah according to the flesh were visible men yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors And here the Protestants might iustly call for names as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault First there were a people of Africa neuer christned by any proper names Names Names where are their Names Secondly there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali Names Names where is his Name Thirdly there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knees to Baal Names Names where are their Names Fourthly there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation Names Names where are their Names Fiftly there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost Names Names where are their Names Sixtly there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kind onely Names Names where are their Names Seuenthly there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England and Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres Names Names where are their Names Eightthly M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors descended from Noah were visible men Names Names where are their Names The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher to name any City Town Village or Hamlet where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net for in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages he spred a strong Net as hee thought to catch D. White and D. Featly in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther but hee was caught in his owne Net by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther yea so visible as M. Fisher pretendeth that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors The Romish Church hath not been so visible Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne The Assumption is thus prooued No Church holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Treâ—t in generall or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ. But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall and those fifteen Articles in speciall Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ. And first that no Church within the space aboue-named can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish Campiâ—â— in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth that 〈…〉 prooue the Romish faith but we could not hear so much as any vâ—ces or 〈◊〉 from M. Fisher to testifie much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages Pliâ—â—â— writes of the â—â—custa or Lobster that he is so afraid of the 〈◊〉 that it is death for him to see him so wee may truely say that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference
the conference make any such long discourse Vntruth for first D. White was appointed in the beginning of the Conference for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question for the Visibility of the Roman Church The first houre and half was already spent and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vpon M. Fisher as hee did to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference and told vs that he would put M. Fisher vpon the proofe of them Secondly those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White testifie vpon their perfect remembrance that he called vpon M. Fisher to oppose and propounded those six points vnto him set downe in the Conference In which because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty Fairly to deny that any such points were proposed Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vpon his conscience that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White or D. Featly in report of any conference To this nothing was replied and therefore I suppose that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation Vntruth for D. Goad immediately replied that what M. Fisher wrote was for his owne aduantage and therefore he could not but suspect that he did it wittingly and willingly See the Attestation to the Conference Page 37. D. Featly turning to M. Fisher said Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or not To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him yet he D. Featly in that abrupt manner went away Vntruth So many words almost so many vntruthes and God be thanked there are witnesses enow to conuince the Counter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage See the Attestation I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher with many more instances but these may suffice to prooue that M. Fisher deemeth himself one of those that haue past Thyle who if we may beleeue Synesius may lie by authority and without controule Of the second Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Contradiction reade Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus Although this Question be grounded vpon vncertain and false Supposals For a Church may haue been visible yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed c. And again page 32. Are all visible Names vpon Record Are all Records in former times now to bee produced And again in the same page M. Sweet calling for Names of Protestants well might say If Protestants had been in all Ages their Names in euery Age might bee produced vnto which as the Protestant Relator saith and the Counter-Relator denieth not D. Featly replied saying This is a non sequitur And page 19. he propoundeth my Argument thus That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue not we shall be so visible that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints is so visible that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages To this Maior Proposition I added page 21. The Maior is ex concessis neither doth the Counter-Relator deny that these words were added Yet page 49. M. Fisher in his Letter to the Earle of Warwick saith They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged than before hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee is able to name Professors in all Ages CONTRADICTION Doctor Featly professeth acknowledgeth that The true Church ought to be so visible as that it is able to name professors in all ages Doctor Featly holdeth not that The true Church ought to be so visible c. but disputed ad hominem and ex concessis aduersarij not according to his owne iudgement Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to particular matters in regard it was his Aduersaries fault to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to haue consisted in this that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church We refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the Question And in many other places he cals my Argument from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church A diuersiue Proof And page 34. Dilatory and iâ—pertinent Syllogisms Yet Page 23. he saith In asking which is the true visible Church wee ask at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church that of it we may learn what is the true faith And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth thâ—â— first it onely be disputed to whom the faith belongeth which is all one say you as if he should say Which is the true visible Church CONTRADICTION In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church it is impertinent and a diuersion to dispute of the true faith In the Question of the visibility of the true Church it is not impertinent nor a diuersion to dispute of the true faith because the Question of the true faith is vertually at least included in the Question of the true Church Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising turned to Master Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which Master Fisher said I will if you will stay And in the same page Master Fisher did not prohibit him Doctor Featly to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles And againe M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times once thus I will dispute of them in due place Another time thus I wil if you wil stay Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point and would not permit him to diuert either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles or any other point vntill names were giuen in all ages The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it See them there And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him D. Featly out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made
I in my Argument nor you in your Answer vse those words 〈◊〉 aeterno Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference viz. That Church whose faith is eternall and pâ—â—petuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popiâ—â— Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee You answer That the Maior is not vniuersally true for that there may be a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged As for example A Church of Angels who for want of visible professors are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be Quid ad Rombum What is this instance to the purpose I dispute of the Church on earth you answer of the Church in heauen I dispute of faith you answer of vision I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages you answer of a Church in which there is no succeeding nor Ages I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors Martyrs who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud you answer of immortall Spirits In a word I dispute of men named in good Authors and Histories you answer of Angels whose names are written in heauen and were neuer vpon visible Record except two or three named in the Scriptures Page 31. To those words of mine I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my Argument for faith in a beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof You reply That M. Sweet 's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed if hee had tearmed that 〈◊〉 to weet proouing the effect by the cause transitio à genere in genus for a cause as a cause an effect as an effect doe not onely differ specie but also genere and besides a proofe à priori and à posteriori are diuers kindes of proofes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I dispute of a transition à genere in genus in rebus you answer of a transition in notionibus I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing I speake of genus in Scientijs you answer of 〈◊〉 in the predicables or predicants so well in defence of M. Sweet you obserue M Sweets pretended Law of speaking nothing but to the purpose But certainely you saw not the But and somissed the mark reading M. Sweets Law without it thus Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose Euery Puney in Logick can tell you that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus is the proouing of a conclusion in one science by the principles of another distinct from it and no way subalternall to it As for example To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick by principles in Geometrie or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus should stand euery demonstration of the effect by the cause à priori or of the cause by the effect 〈◊〉 posteriori in the same Science should bee a transitio à genere in genus because as you say the cause as a cause and the effect as an effect differ genere for which ignorant Arguing as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference so you M. Fisher for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues Page 65. You alledge this for a reason why you refused to answer Christ his Apostles for that say you All disputation about particulars before the true Church were by her perpetuall Visibility or some such euident marke found out and knowne would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulars vntill he had asked these generall Questions First what ground the Minister would stand vpon c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer you bring-in by the head and eares a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister and an acute Disputant touching the merit of works What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church or a Catalogue of Names If this bee not transitio à genere in genus I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression for I drew you not to dispute about any particulars but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self to weet that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith might be produced viz. Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius to whom after you had giuen your Answer Whether they taught our faith or yours I would haue gone on in like manner in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages Now then let the Reader iudge whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits were any way necessary or pertinent Page 68. 69 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions to prooue that Hereticks who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches and refused also some Scriptures or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The sentences indeed you cite are golden but you apply them most leadenly for what Protestant whom by a ridiculous 〈◊〉 principij or begging the Question you stile Hereticks what Protestant I say euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches as they were in the Primitiue Times much lesse either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures by addition or detraction Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures and the ancient Mother-church of which Tertullian speaks who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues then you do we willingly put our whole cause in their hands wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires Tertullian speaks of Prooue that the Apostles or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them held your Trent-faith or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piuâ— in the end of that Councell and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto and then I will acknowledge that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures And if we prooue not that we
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē nō enim per literas traditā illam sed per viuam vocē When they are conuinced by Scripture they fall on accusing the Scriptures thēselues as if they were not as they ought to be or were not of authoritie and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered and that out of them the truth cānot be found by those who are ignorant of tradition for that it viz. the truth was not deliuered by letters but by word of mouth Is not this in part your plea at this day that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities that they receyue countenance whole authority quoad nos from the Church that the written Word without vnwritten traditions is not sufficient Thirdly there is no positiue Article of our faith which you your selues or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique therefore wee are on a sure ground euen by your owne confession To instance in most of the principall Articles First wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God you beleeue them also to bee so but adde vnto them the Apocrypha Secondly wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments in Hebrew and Greek to bee authenticall and of vndoubted authoritie you I hope beleeue so too but you adde that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also Thirdly wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith you beleeue so but adde thereunto the vnwritten word Fourthly we beleeue that Christ is the Head of his Church you beleeue so likewise but adde vnto him a visible Head the Pope Fiftly we beleeue that there are two places Heauen for them that shall bee saued and Hell for them that shall bee damned you beleeue so too but adde thereunto other places more Purgatorie Limbus patrum and Limbus infantum Sixtly wee beleeue that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth you beleeue so too but you adde that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images Seuenthly we beleeue that we ought to call vpon God you beleeue so too but adde heereunto that you may call vpon Saints Eightthly we beleeue that Christ is our Mediator both of redemption and intercession you beleeue so too but you adde to him Angels and Saints vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie Ninthly we beleeue that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth and pray in generall for the Church militant you beleeue so too but adde that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities and pray to God in speciall for vs. Tenthly we beleeue that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church Baptisme and the Eucharist you beleeue so too but adde to them fiue other Matrimonie Penance Ordination Confirmation and Extreme Vnction Eleuenthly we beleeue that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort that all those who worthily receiue them participate also of sanctifying grace you beleeue so too but adde that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato a worse Solecism in Diuinity than in Grammar and that God is tied vnto them so that all children dying without Baptism are necessarily damned Twelfthly wee beleeue that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament you beleeue so too but you adde that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister Thirteenthly we beleeue that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body you beleeue so too but adde that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents the elements beeing transubstantiated Foureteenthly we beleeue that we are iustified and saued by the merits Passion of Christ you beleeue so too but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction Fifteenthly we beleeue that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth you beleeue so too but adde therunto that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also Sixteenthly we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds the Apostles the Nicene and that of Athanasius and the foure generall Councels you beleeue them also but adde a fourth Creed viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope and annexed to the Councell of Trent Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation you and in a manner all the Christians in the world hold as we And therefore our doctrine is Catholique according to Vincentius Rule quòd ab omnibus quòd vbique quòd semper whereas your additions to the Catholique faith were neuer maintained neither by all Christians in any Age nor by any Christians in all Ages Neither you nor all the Papists in the world are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith wherein you differ from vs to be Catholique And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration Obiect 1. First you say it conuinceth not the vnderstanding and therefore is no demonstration Answer This obiection of yours sheweth that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding It is not the property of a demonstration actually to conuince the vnderstanding but potentially or vertually The meaning of this Proposition A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding is this that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man to assent to the conclusion the premises beeing before apprehended by him and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause to weet the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him afterwards he must be taught that the Moon hath not light of her self but receiueth it from the Sunne thirdly that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines Fourthly it must be shewed how in such points called by Astronomers Caput cauda Draconis the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed whereby it comes to passe that by the interposition of the earth the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames And thus in the end the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth is eclipsed But the Moon in the points aboue-named viz. the head and taile of the Dragon is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth Ergo the Moon alwaies in those
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
non videns lapidem non lapidem c. A man no man that is an Eunuch seeing not seeing that is seeing dimly being â—urblind a stone no stone that is a pumice for heere is a priuate Letter no Letter relating not relating the substance of my Argument not my Argument First it may bee call'd a priuate Letter because it was seald vp like a priuate Letter and indorsed to an Honorable Personage yet it was no priuate Letter for diuers copies of it were dispersed and read before the Earle receiued it who heard of it before hee read it His Lord-ships name was set vpon it onely to make it more passable and to giue vent for such cheating wares as Master Fisher thought would passe more currant by a Letter addressed to so Noble a Personage Secondly it relateth and not relateth because it omitteth much more then it relateth for the Introduction in the beginning and the Induction in the end of the Conference and all my Replies in the middle they are all not circumcised only as the Argument here relateth but quite cut out Thirdly it relateth my Argument not my Argument my Argument because propounded in most of my words yet not my Argument because not according to my meaning when I disputed thus in the Conference The Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible or ought to bee so visible that the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages I argued not so according to my owne opinion but as it is expresly set downe in the Conference ex concessis vpon your owne ground vpon which to supplant you I held it a great disparagement to your cause and therefore in repeating the Argument againe I expresly added as you your selfe confesse That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue I said not wee to bee so visible as that the names of the Professors may be shewed c. In the very entrance to the Conference you acknowledge these to haue beene my words although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false supposals for a Church may haue beene visible yet not the names of all Professors thereof now to bee shewed And againe Are all visible mens names vpon record are all Records in former times now to bee produced And againe in the same page M. Sweet calling for names of Protestants well might say If Protestants had beene in all Ages their names in euery Age might bee produced Vnto which as the Protestant Relâ—tor â—aith and the Counter-Relator denieth it not D. Featly replyed saying This is a non sequitur Out of all which passages it euidently appeares that both you in this your Letter and L. D. otherwise M. Sweet in the defence of the Appendix bely your owne consciences in saying that I professed out of mine owne iudgement opinion that the true Church must be able to name Professors in all Ages It is true as Brasidas the Lacedemonian ran thorow his Aduersary with his owne Speare so I took that proposition tanquam hastam amentatam from you to wound you with your owne weapon And although I needed not at all to haue descended to an Induction or produced any Catalogue of such as maintained Protestant Doctrine by name yet the more to conuince you and to satisfie some of the Auditory I beganne a Catalogue and had proceeded farther in it if I had not beene called away by those whose Authority and Loue might command mee who would not suffer mee to deale any longer with an aduersary so atheologicall and alogicall so irreligious and vnreasonable so irreligious to refuse finally and peremptorily to answer an instance in Christ and his Apostles beeing vehemently pressed and not without adiuration Secondly so vnreasonable to require an Opponent to prooue at once eminent professors for 1500 yeeres to haue taught Protestant Doctrine Was there euer any that vndertook to make good a catalogue of Professors in all Ages who did not first prooue that there were such in the first Age and then in the second et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Was there euer a Respondent who vndertook to answer an Argument by Induction of particulars consisting of 15 or rather 15 hundred particulars and al in his iudgement questionable who did not answer them piece-meale in order first applying his Answer to the first particular and secondly to the second c I cannot patterne you better then by that malefactor who hauing stolne my Oxen and beeing indited for them seuerally would not answer directly to the first enditement Guilty or not guilty but said still that hee had that Oxe with his fellowes heereby hoping vpon tryall of the whole in one lump to escape by his book or benefit of Clergie as wee call it In like manner when you were put to it to answer directly Whether the Protestant Professors were not visible in the first Age and so in the second and so in the third c you answer It was not visible in the first Age with the rest nor in the second with the rest and further you will not goe The difference betweene you is onely this He answered so shufflingly and confusedly to saue his neck and you to saue the rack of an Argument he to slip out by his Clergy you by your vnclerkly Sophistry You may bee sure such kinde of foggie and misty answering could no way satisfie a man of so cleere a iudgement and apprehension in controuersies of this nature as the Earle of Warwick is Which that you may the better know from his own pen I will acquaint you with a Letter wrote by occasion of this businesse by his Lordship and addressed to Sir Humfrey Lynde To my louing friend Sir Humfrey Lynde SIR since my beeing at your house at the Disputation of M. Doctor Featly and Fisher diuers haue come vnto mee to know whether it was a Disputation appointed by me or no and whether I was not satisfied with it Whereby I perceiue those that learne the doctrine of equiuocation will not spare to tell a plaine lye to doe any man wrong that is not of their opinion And I am the more confirmed in this opinion for since last night M. Plume came to mee and deliuered this enclosed letter which I much maruell at I would not answer it but thus that I would speake with you and that M. Fisher should not need feare that D. Featly would flee from him but meet him at any time to make good his Tenet I had thought to haue spoken with you my selfe but my earnest occasions pressed mee to go this day into the countrey Wherefore if you meet I pray let the company know for the meeting that I knew of it but halfe an howre before it was and I came at the request of another Gentleman and for no desire of mine to be satisfied for I thank God my conscience makes no doubt of the truth of our Religion This I say because I heare that
former acknowledge that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth which since Luther blessed bee God hath beene much more cleerely discouered and trodden then in former times If Protestant Writers sway little with you who yet could better tell then you or M. Sweet and such other new vpstart Iesuites who were Luthers forerunners learne of your owne Rainerius and Claudius de Seissel and Cocleus and Lyndanus and Claudius Rubis and Aeneas Syluius and Iohn Dubranius and Alfonsus à Castro and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet and many other that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther and shewed him his way Yea but Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell Schlusenburgs words are Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ priusquam prodiret Lutherus euangelij doctrinam tenüisse adeoque ipsum Pellicanum priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse Vtenboius writes impudently that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther appeared and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory before the name of Luther was heard For ought I know Vtenboius is as honest a man as Schlusenburgius and if Schlusenburgius deny it Vtenboius affirmeth it yea and for ought is prooued to the contrary Conradus Pellicanus also yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master no way helpeth your cause for admit there were not in Germany yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France England c. who before Luther embraced the doctrine of the Gospell Secondly in Germany it selfe there were not multi eruditi viri many learned men yet there might be some for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke His words are Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista causa non fuisset If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation Therefore we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie to whom Luther succeeded for if there had beene such in the Romane Church there had beene no cause to depart from it What makes this testimony for you Is it for the honor of your Church to bee truly branded with Apostasie to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy will it follow that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere It is true Reformation presupposeth a Deformation as a remedy presupposeth a disease a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged Though the Romane Church or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church was vnsound in the faith and very corrupt and rotten yet were there other sound members of Christs Church in whose steps it is well knowne that Luther trod What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther Now for Benedictus Morgenst Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra Hee who found him for you makes him runne the same way with Ioachimus Camerarius but not whither you would haue him They both stand for the honor of Luther and maintaine that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation that none ought to share with him in that dignity in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches They will not endure that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne but out of the Fountaine of liuing water the Scriptures Wicklef indeed saith Ioachimus was instructed by the Waldenses and Hus by Wicklef but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef but was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught of himselfe out of Scriptures This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther Zuinglius and Pellicanus and Vtenboius and your owne Alfonsus à Castro seeme to make others as ready forward at that time as Luther And indeed whether Luther set Zuinglius or Zuinglius Luther first a-work or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple I hold it needlesse to define Let Luther and Zuinglius and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches Ne sit primus nec vel imus quispiam Will it follow that because Luther was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and did not tind his candle at another mans light therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time but hee It will follow say you because Morgenst addeth that It is manifest to the whole world that before Luther's time all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse And you adde also to Morgenst fiue other corroboratory testimonies of Caluin Bucer Beza Iewell and Perkins whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer I will dismisse you Master FISHER And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Masters I will adde heereunto what is said first by Caluin who doth acknowledge that in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this time ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that there was at that time no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was onely inuisible as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines namely Master Iewel who saith The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell and M. Perkins who saith Wee say that before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeeres an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the world Doctor FEATLY When Caluin saith There was a departure made from all the world and Morgenst That
in the Lords march prosperously with your honour because of truth and righteousnesse and your right hands shall teach your terrible things terrible things to the Whore of Babylon but comfortable to Christs afflicted Spouse The good will of him who dwelt in the bush make your Aarons Rod to flourish more and more to the glory of his Name aduancement of the Truth honour of the Priest-hood and your owne endlesse ioy and comfort This we all of the Tribe of Leui are bound to pray for in generall and I my selfe more specially as beeing Your Graces most humbly-deuoted Chaplaine in house and seruant DANIEL FEATLY The Preface to the Protestants Relation of the Conference IVNE 27. 1623. BEing commanded by my Lord his Grace of Canterbury from his Maiesty to certifie the truth of that which passed in a late conference in point of Religion at Sir Linde's house in Sheer-Lane in London we who were present at the Conference partly out of the fresh memory of such passages as we then obserued but especially by help of such Notes as were taken in the Conference it self subscribed by both the Disputants drew vp within a week after as perfect a Relation of the substance thereof as we could wherein as we added nothing to the aduantage or preiudice of either party so wee omitted nothing of moment in the Current of the Arguments and Answers As for some interlocutory speeches of the right honourable the Earl of Warwick who diuers times seasonably interposed and when the Disputants or standers-by grew into any heat or distemper discreetly tempered both sides Ille regit dictis animos pectora mulcet those passages we inserted not into our narration because the Earle beeing not then in London we held it incongruous without his Honours knowledge to vse his name to the King For other omissions the Iesuites are beholding vnto vs for they were in fauour of them wee beeing loth to bee vngues in vlcere to bee thought to rub too hard vpon a gawle but rather desirous to carry the whole Relation as fairly and passably as might be We had thought the Iesuites would haue pardoned vs this wrong After this originall Draught was by vs tendered to his Grace of Canterbury and by his Grace deliuered to the Kings Maiesty some Copie as we vnderstand was taken for the satisfaction of a Person of quality which passing from one to another in the end fell into the hands of some Stationers who without licence or knowledge of those whom it most concerned committed it to the Presse de questu magis quà m quaestione soliciti And the better to vent this new wine they set a faire Garland before the dore intituling it The FISHER caught in his owne Net Which Title was not deuised nor prefixed by any of vs we willingly leaue the vanity of such affected inscriptions to our Aduersaries who make themselues ridiculous in this kinde One intituleth his Answer to D. White WHITE dyed black Another cals his woodden Pamphlet The Gag of the new Religion or of the reformed Gospell Another his Reply to M. BELL Cecidit BELL The dolefull knell of THOMAS BELL. This is not the sound of AARON'S golden Bell but rather of the tinkling Cymball mentioned by Saint PAVL 1. Cor. 13. Fancies and Iigs make no good Church-musick Nobis non licet esse tam disertis Qui Musas colimus sacratiores For the Title therefore wee approoue it not but for the Conference it selfe it containeth nothing but the truth whatsoeuer the Aduersaries giue out to the contrary who as it seemeth hold it a work of supererogation to forge and coyne signall and transcendent Leasings for the Catholick Cause for although the Iesuites at this Conference were often vncertaine and alwaies very slow and tardy in their Answers and in fine answered nothing but that they would not answer Doctor FEATLY his instance in CHRIST and his Apostles yet haue they or their Schollers proclaimed in Gath and published in Ascalon such a victory as neuer was heard much like the wonderfull coniunction of the superior Planets which was neâ—er seene About a weeke after the Conference the noble Earle of Warwick who had bin present at it hauing occasion to passe ouer the Seas and comming to Saint Omers had the Company of Doctor Weston at his Inne to whom this Doctor taking the Earle for a Romane Catholick told for fresh and most happy newes out of England that at a Conference betweene Father FISHER and SVVEET Iesuites and two Protestant Ministers in London the Iesuites had quitted themselues so well and the Catholique faith preuailed so farre that two Earles and an hundred other of the Auditory were gayned to the Church of Rome by this Incounter of these two Earles the party to whom hee spake was one who could not but smile at this Relation Risit Atlantiades et me mihi perfide prodis Me mihi prodis ait A pretty Comick Scene where the Spectator is made an Actor and a false person put vpon him to his face a renowned and constant Protestant borne downe to be a Romish Proselyte As for the reuolt of the other Earle and pretended Centurie of Protestant Romane Conuerts we beleeue it as firmely as that S. BRIGET laid her Wimple and Saint ALDELME his Chesible vpon a beame of the Sunne which supported them That Saint NICOLAS while hee lay in his cradle fasted Wednesday and Fryday these daies hee would not suck but once in the day That Saint PATRICK caused a stolne sheep to bleate in the belly of him that had eaten it That the corps of S. LAVRENCE at the coming of Saint STEPHENS body smiled for ioy and turned it selfe to the other side of the Sepulcher to make roome for him that CLEMENS wrote a Letter to Saint IAMES the brother of our Lord seuen yeeres after hee was dead that Saint DENNIS carried his head in his hand three miles and rested at each place of the posts that are set betweene Paris and Saint Dennis that Saint DVNSTONE held the diuell fast by the nose with a paire of tongues that the chamber of our Lady was carried by Angels through the Ayre from Palestine to Loretto in Italy that our Lady helped Saint THOMAS BECKET to mend or stitch his hayre-cloth that a Parrat crying out Saint THOMAS help me was deliuered from an Hawk that Saint LVPVS shut vp the diuell in a tankard all night that Saint DOMINICK made the Diuell hold the candle to him till hee burnt his fingers that Saint FRANCIS swallowed a Spider in a Chalice which Spider came whole out of his thigh that the Image of the Crucifix turnd tayle to GREGORY the Monke when hee went from the Vespers to walk in the Chapter house that Fryer ANDREVV to correct his appetite of eating birds at the Table by the signe of the Crosse commanded them to fly away after they were rosted
calling it bee inuisible yet in respect of the outward calling to and profession of sauing faith it is alwaies more or lesse visible The elect are visible men and exist in the visible congregations of Christians as the apple in the ey or a Diamond in a Ring or the soule in the body As Athens is called the Greece of Greece so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church for in respect of them principally are those glorious titles giuen and gracious promises made to the Church which are registred in holy Scripture The third assertion which trencheth neer vpon our question The Church in a larger notion comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus Lactantius defineth the Church Catholica Ecclesia est quae verum Dei cultum retinet hic est fons veritatis hoc est domicilium fidei hoc Templum Dei quo si quis non intrarit vel a quo si quit exiuerit à spe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est c. That is the Catholique Church which retaines the true worship of God This is the Fountaine of truth this the House of faith this is the Temple of God he that shall not enter heerein or shall depart hence is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation Of the Church in this acception our Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood If hee refuse to heare the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican And Saint Lukes Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church c. And Saint Paul 's Despiseyee the Church of God c And in his Epistle to the Ephesians Vnto him bee glory in the Church c. And to Timothy How shall hee take care of the Church of God The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field wherein are tares with the wheat a floore wherein is chaffe with graine a net wherein are sweet fish and rotten an house in which are precious vessels and vile to the Ark in which were cleane and vncleane beasts To the Church taken in this sense Christ directeth vs Tell the Church And Saint Paul That thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the liuing God And Saint Cyprian Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ who leaueth the Church of Christ hee is a stranger hee is a profane person for hee cannot haue God to his Father who hath not the Church for his Mother And Saint Augustine I will not account thee a Christian vnlesse I see thee in the Church The fourth assertion The Church in this notion as it extends to all that professe the true Religion and participate in the pledges of saluation was euer is and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world That it hath euer beene hitherto visible all Histories accord and that it shall so continue to the worlds end our Sauiours words are our warrant Goe yee and teach all nations c. andle I am with you alwaies euen vnto the end of the world For the continuance of Gods Word the Prophet Esay is most peremptory This is my couenant with thee saith the Lord c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from hence-foorth for euer And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments that they shall bee administred till his second comming As oft as yee eat of this Bread and drink of this Cup yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come And lastly S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery He gaue some Apostles some Prophets c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith c. It is true Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church and there shall be such a falling away that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth false prophets and false Christs shall arise and seduce if it were possible the elect but that is not possible hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith and if they retaine it they will also pâ—ofessed it 〈◊〉 for with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation Sainâ— Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the â—onatists What is that that thou sayest The Church 〈◊〉 already perished and gone out of all Nations 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached that it may bee in all Nations therefore euen vnto the end of the world 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point because M. Fisher in his reflection on the Conference spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it as a strong bulwark as hee imagineth against vs. I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest effluere non potest The Church may bee euershadowed it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉 The fift assertion The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible but sometimes it is more visible sometimes it is lesse It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes when he sung In Iurie is God knowne his name is great in Israel then it was in the time that Hosea prophecies of Israel shall remain many daies without a King and without a sacrifice It was more visible in the daies Malachie foreshews of From the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe there of my name shall be great among the Gentiles then in the daies Eliah complaineth of I euen I am left alone The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon when she is compared to a Queene honourably attended then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of when shee is compared to a Woman flying into the wildernesse Shee was more visible in the daies Esay fortelleth of Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes thy nursing mothers then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie when Kings shall giue their Kingdome to the beast In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church Micah giueth her this Motto Reioyce not ouer mee O my enemy though I fall I shall rise againe And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone My Loue is faire as the Moone To which ground Saint Austen alluding interpreteth Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned the Church in trouble and persecution And Saint Ambrose Ecclesia vt Luna defectus habet et orâ—us frequentes The Church as the Moone hath her often waxings and wainings And in his Epistle The Moone it selfe whereby in the