Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
and Cross This Church is Holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the holy Doctrin which continually brings forth Saints in her Unity This Church has neither Spot nor Wrinkle because she has neither any Error nor any evil Maxim and moreover because she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD who thô Sinners on Earth find in her Communion exterior Means to purify themselves so that they shall one day come in a most perfect Estate before JESUS CHRIST This perhaps is the only Place in which it may with some shew of Probability be said That the word Church taken simply signifies something else than the exterior Society of GODs People and yet you see how clear it is that it ought to be understood as all the others But should this Passage and two or three more have a Signification either Doubtful or even different from this yet are all the other conformable to it For what is there more frequent than such Expressions as these That the Church must be edify'd that the Church has been persecuted that GOD is praised in the midst of the Church that she is saluted that she is visited that there are Pastors and Bishops establisht to govern her and other like the number of which is infinite It cannot then be deny'd that this is the ordinary Signification of the word Church and consequently that which is to be follow'd in so plain a Confession of Faith as is the Apostles Creed In this Sense was it taken by a whole great Council Conc. Ni◠post Symb. the first and holiest of all the Universal Councils when condemning Arius it pronounc'd in this manner The holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes all those who say That the Son of GOD was drawn out of nothing 'T is JESUS CHRIST himself who taught us to believe the Church in this Sense For to found this Church he came forth from the invisible Bosom of his Father and rendred himself visible to Men he assembled about him a Society of Men that acknowledg'd him for their Master This is what he call'd his Church To this Primitive Church the Faithful who afterwards believ'd congregated themselves and thence sprung the Church which the Creed terms Catholic or Universal JESUS CHRIST us'd the word Church to signify this visible Society when he said himself that we must hear the Church Mat. xviii v. 17. Tell it unto the Church And again when he said Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Why said I Madam why will not they of your Religion understand here by the word Church the Society of those that make Profession to believe in JESUS CHRIST and the Gospel since it is certain that this Society is in effect the true Church against which Hell could never prevail neither when it made use of Tyrants to persecute her nor when it set false Doctors on work to corrupt her Hell shall not prevail against the Predestinate 't is certain For if it cannot prevail against this exterior Society with much greater Reason shall it not prevail against the Elect of GOD who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church But by the same Reason that it cannot prevail against the Elect it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments 'T is this exterior Society in which the Elect serve GOD that we ought to understand by the word Church and at the same time admire the invincible Force of JESUS CHRIST's Promises who has so supported the Society of his People thô weak in comparison of the Infidels which environ'd it without thô torn by Heretics who divided it within that there has not been so much as one sole Moment in which this Church has not been seen by the whole Earth But the Pretended Reformed have not dar'd to retain this natural Sense of the Gospel For that they might establish themselves they have been forc'd to say in their Confession of Faith Article XXXI That the State of the Church was interrupted and that they were fain to raise it up again anew because it was in Ruine and Desolation In effect when their Church was set up it entred not into Communion with any other Church then extant on the Earth but was form'd by breaking with all the Christian Churches which were in the World They have not then the Consolation which the Catholics have to see JESUS CHRIST's Promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since JESUS CHRIST came to build it on the Rock and to save his Word they are oblig'd to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew But JESUS CHRIST would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the Opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable Assurance of the immutable Certainty of his Promises And in effect let us consider when he spake this Word Thou art Peter Mat. xvi v. 18. and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it 'T was when having askt his Apostles Whom say ye that I am Peter in the Name of them all answer'd him Thou art CHRIST the Son of the living GOD. Upon this illustrious Confession of Faith which Flesh and Blood had not dictated but the Heavenly Father had reveal'd to Peter upon this illustrious Confession of Faith I say is founded both St. Peters Dignity and the Churches immoveable Firmness This Church which confesses JESUS CHRIST to be the true Son of GOD is that against which Hell shall never prevail and which shall subsist without Interruption maugre all the Efforts and Artifices of the Devil It appears then clearly that the Church of which JESUS CHRIST speaks in this place is a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exterior and visible Church See also what he adds And I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Ibid. v. 19. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven And whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven Whatever is to be understood by these Words whether Preaching Ecclesiastical Censures or the Ministery of Priests in the Sacrament of Penance as Catholics understand them 't is still certain That here is an exterior Ministery given to this Church 'T is then this Church which confesses the Faith and confesses it principally by the Mouth of St. Peter 'T is this Church that uses the Ministery of the Keys 'T is she that shall always be on the Earth without Hells ever being able to prevail against her And because JESUS
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
pass'd again over the Doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture if one doubted of the Churches Authority She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment of the Scripture and besides she perfectly understood that Mr. Claude rejecting the Name of Doubt acknowledg'd the Thing in other terms Which serv'd only to make appear how hard this Matter was both to think and say since being forc't to own it he thought not fit to do it in simple Terms For in fine not to know whether a thing be or no if it be not to Doubt is nothing It appear'd then clearly That the two Propositions which were in debate were establisht And I shew'd Mademoiselle de Duras in few words That her Church by believing two such strange Things had chang'd the whole Order of instructing GODs Children practis'd at all times in the Christian Church For this purpose I needed only repeat to her what she had heard me say and what she had heard Mr. Claude grant GOD nevertheless put in my heart something more express and I said to her as follows The Order of instructing GODs Children is to teach them before all things the Apostles Creed I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins and the rest As much as the Faithful believes in GOD the Father and in his Son JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe the Universal Church where the Father where the Son where the Holy Ghost is ador'd As much I say as he believes the Father so much does he believe the Church which makes Profession to believe that GOD the Father of JESUS CHRIST has adopted Children whom he has united to his Son As much as he believes in the Son so much does he believe the Church which he has assembled by his Blood which he has establisht by his Doctrin which he has founded on the Rock and against which he has promis'd that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given for a Teacher And he that says I believe in GOD and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost Rom. X. v. 10. when he says I believe confesses With the heart he believeth unto Righteousness and with the mouth Confession is made unto Salvation as St. Paul says and he knows that the Faith he has is not a private Sentiment There is a Church a Society of Men which believes as he does 'T is the Universal Church which is neither here nor there neither at this time nor at another She is not confin'd to one only Country like the ancient Judaical Church nor is she to end as that was Dan. II. v. 44. C. 7. v. 14. and her Kingdom shall not pass to other People as 't is written in Daniel She is at all times and in all places and so dispers'd that whoever will come to her may She has no Interruption in her Succession for there is not any time when one cannot say I believe the Vniversal Church As there is not any time but one may say I believe in GOD the Father and in his Son and in the Holy Ghost This Church is Holy because all she teaches is holy because she teaches all the Doctrin which makes Saints that is all the Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST because she encloses all the Saints in her Unity And these Saints must not only be united in Spirit They are exteriorly united in the Communion of this Church and this is meant by the Communion of Saints In this Universal Church in this Communion of Saints is the Remission of Sins There is Baptism by which Sins are remitted there is the Ministery of the Keys by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on Earth Matt. xvi v. 19. John xx v. 23. is remitted or retained in Heaven Behold then in this Church an exterior Ministery which lasts as long as the Church that is to say always since this Church is believ'd at all times not as a thing which has been or must be but as a thing which actually is See then to what this Church is joyn'd and what is joyn'd to this Church She is joyn'd immediatly to the Holy Ghost which governs her I believe in the Holy Ghost the holy Catholic Church To this Church is joyn'd the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh eternal Life Out of this Church there is neither Communion of Saints nor Remission of Sins nor Resurrection to eternal Life Behold the Faith of the Church establisht in the Creed It makes no mention of the Scripture Is it because it despises it GOD forbid You shall receive the Scripture from the Hands of the Church and because you never doubted of the Church you shall never doubt of the Scripture which the Church has receiv'd from GOD from JESUS CHRIST and from the Apostles which she always keeps as coming from that Source which she puts into the Hands of all the Faithful Methought this Doctrin truly Holy and Apostolical wrought the Effect it ought to work But there is said I one Word more 'T is what I said to Mr. Claude and I reduce it now to this most plain Argument which every one may equally understand I mean the Learned as the Ignorant and the private Person as the Pastor The baptiz'd Christian before he reads the holy Scripture can either make this Act of Faith I believe that this Word is inspir'd by GOD as I believe that GOD is or he cannot If he cannot he then doubts of it he is reduc'd to examin whether the Gospel is not a Fable But if he can make it by what means shall he do it The Holy Ghost shall put it in his Heart This is no Answer for it is agreed That Faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost The Question is concerning the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses and there can be no other but the Churches Authority Thus every Christian receives from the Church without examining this Scripture as a Writing inspir'd by GOD. Let us go a little farther Does the Church only give us the Holy Scripture in Paper the Bark of the Word the Body of the Letter No without doubt she gives us the Spirit that is the Sense of the Scripture For to give us the Scripture without the Sense is to give us a Body without a Soul a Letter which kills The Scripture without its lawful Interpretation the Scripture destitute of its natural Sense is a Knife to cut our Throats The Arian cut his Throat by the Scripture misunderstood so did the Nestorian so did the Pelagian GOD forbid then That the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the Sense of it She receiv'd them both together When she
CHRIST would have her alwaies visibly subsist he has cloth'd her with sensible Marks which are always to continue For see how he sends his Apostles and what he says to 'em at his ascending into Heaven Go ye therefore and teach all Nations Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World Teaching with you baptizing with you instructing with you my Faithful to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded consequently exercising with you in my Church an exterior Ministery 'T is with you 'T is with those who shall succeed you 'T is with the Society assembled under their Conduct that I shall be from this present even to the Consummation of the World alway without Interruption For there shall not be any one Moment in which I will leave you but thô absent in Body I will be always present by my Holy Spirit In Consequence of this Word St. Paul also tells us that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without any Discontinuance till the general Resurrection He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all Heavens Eph. iv v. 10 11 12 13. that he might fill all things And he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the Work of the Ministry for the Edifying of the Body of CHRIST Till we all come in the Vnity of the Faith and of the Knowledge of the Son of GOD unto a perfect Man unto the measure of the Stature of the fulness of CHRIST That is to say till we have attain'd the Perfection of JESUS CHRIST glorify'd in Body and Soul This is the Term which GOD has set to the Ecclesiastical Ministery The Pretended Reformed will not have the visible Church to be that which is call'd JESUS CHRISTs Body Which is then that Body where GOD has establish'd some Apostles some Prophets and some Pastors and Teachers Which is that Body where GOD has plac'd several Members and different Graces Rom. xii v. 4 c. The Grace of Ministery the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church But that which makes the Pretended Reformed unwilling to acknowledge that the Body of JESUS CHRIST so much recommended in the Scripture can be the visible Church is their being constrain'd to say that the visible Church sometimes ceases to be upon the Earth and they have an Horror to say that JESUS CHRISTs Body is not always for fear of putting JESUS CHRIST once again to death 'T is then without Difficulty this Assembly of Pastors and People 't is this Church compos'd of so many divers Members by whom so many Holy Ministeries are exteriorly exercis'd 't is this that is called JESUS CHRISTs Body 't was to this Body assembled under the Ministery of Pastors that he said at his ascending into Heaven Lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World He then that descended is the same that ascended to the end he might fill all things Heaven by his Person and his visible Presence Earth by his Spirit and his invisible Assistance both the one and the other by his Truth and his Word And 't was for to continue at his ascent into Heaven this Assistance promis'd to his Church that he plac'd some Apostles some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers A thing which must last till such time as the Work of GOD is entirely accomplish'd till we are all perfect Men and till the whole Body of the Church be arriv'd at the Fulness and Perfection of JESUS CHRIST Thus JESUS CHRISTs Work is eternal on the Earth The Church founded on the Confession of the Faith shall always be and always confess the Faith Her Ministery shall be eternal She shall bind and loose even to the end of the World Hell never being able to hinder her she shall never discontinue the Teaching of Nations The Sacraments that is the exterior Liveries with which she is clad shall last for ever Teach and baptize the Nations 1. Cor. xi v. 26. and I shall be alway with you As often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come With the Supper shall last the Confession of the Faith the Ecclesiastical Ministery and the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST and of the Faithful amongst themselves till such time as JESUS CHRIST comes The duration of the Church and of the Ecclesiastical Ministery has no other Limits 'T is not then only the Society of the Predestinate that shall subsist for ever 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which nourishes them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever And 't is for this reason that in the Apostles Creed where the Grounds of the Faith are propos'd to our Belief we are at the same time taught to believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and to believe the Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of Saints The interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us I acknowledge it but at the same time also the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church And all that we have now said is included in this Word I believe the Vniversal Church We believe her at all times she is then always We believe her at all times she always then teaches the Truth Your Ministers will have us believe that 't is one thing to believe the Church that is to believe that she is and another thing to believe or give credit to the Church that is to believe all her Decisions But this is a frivolous Distinction He who believes that the Church always is believes that she is always confessing and teaching the Truth 'T is to this Church which confesses the Truth that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd Hell shall not prevail against her The Truth then shall never fail to be confess'd in her and consequently in believing that she is we are assur'd that she is always credible In effect the retaining some Points of JESUS CHRIST's Doctrine is not sufficient to preserve the Name of Church For then the Arians the Pelagians the Donatists the Anabaptists and the Socinians would be of the Church They are not however GOD forbid that we should call this Confusion by the Name of Church The Church must not then only keep
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
the Reading of the Scripture he must also be able to shew us one that precedes the Churches Instructions but this he will never find Whatever he does we shall always mark him a a Point of time before the reading of the Scripture which is that when the Church puts it into our hand but before the Church there is nothing she prevents all our Doubts by her Instructions 'T is an Error to imagin that we must always examin before we believe The Happiness of those who are born as I may say in the Bosom of the true Church is That GOD has given her such an Authority that we believe at first what she proposes and that Faith precedes or rather excludes Examination To ask now by what Motives GOD makes us sensible of his Churches Authority is to depart visibly from the Question He wants not Motives to fasten his Children to his Church to which he has given so particular and so resplendent Characters This very thing that of all the Societies in the world she is the sole to whom none can shew her beginning or any interruption of her visible and exterior State by any averr'd Fact whilst she shews all other Societies that environ her theirs by Facts which themselves cannot deny this very thing is a sensible Character that gives an inviolable Authority to the true Church GOD wants not Motives to make his Children perceive this so particular Character of his Church But whatever these Motives are not to forestall them here this being no place for it 't is certain that there are some since that in fine we must be able to believe on the Churches word before we have read the holy Scripture and that in the first Instruction we receive without speaking of the Scripture we are taught to say as a fundamental Act of our Faith I believe the Catholick Church Mr. Claude tells us that to authorize the Method by which we pretend to lay the Churches Faith as the Foundation of all the rest the Creed should have begun with saying I believe the Church whereas it is begun with saying I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost And he considers not that 't is the Church her self which teaches us the whole Creed that 't is on her word we say I believe in GOD the Father and in JESVS CHRIST his only Son and the rest which we cannot say with a firm Faith unless GOD at the same time puts in our Hearts that the Church which teaches us deceives us not After then we have on her word said I believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and begun our Profession of Faith by the Divine Persons whom their Majesty places above all we add an holy Reflection on the Church which proposes to us this Belief and say I believe the Catholick Church To which we immediatly after joyn all the Graces we receive by her Ministery the Communion of Saints the Remission of Sins the Blessed Resurrection and in fine Everlasting Life The Fifth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty 'T IS to shew a desire of embroling matters to alledge here with Mr. Claude the Greek Church the Armenian the Egyptian or Aethiopick and that of the Cophti and so many others which brag no less of being the true Church than the Roman does Those say they who are bred up in these Churches revere their Authority every one of these Churches has Followers as zealous as ours True and pure zeal has no sensible Mark every one attributes his as we do to the Grace of the Holy Ghost and resting on the Authority of the Church in which he is says That the Holy Ghost makes use of this Authority to guide him to the Belief of the Scripture and all the Verities of Christianity This is in a manner Mr. Claude's Objection and thus sometimes when Men cannot free themselves they endeavour to cast others into the like Perplexity as theirs But he will gain nothing by this Address for in fine what cause does he pretend to combat for is it for indifferency of Religions Will he say with the wicked that there is not a true Church in which men indeed act by divine Motions And under pretence that the Devil or if he pleases Nature can imitate or to say better counterfeit these Motions will he maintain that they are every where imaginary GOD forbid we will both of us avoid this Rock He will avow then with me that there is a true Church which soever it is where the Holy Ghost acts thô by looking only on the exterior we cannot always so easily discern who those are in whom he dwells Hitherto we are agreed let us see now how far we can go together We agree that there is one true Church in which the Holy Ghost acts we agree that he makes use of exterior Means to put the Truth in our Hearts we agree that he makes use of the Church and of the Scripture Our question is to know by which he begins whether by the Scripture or by the Church whether I say he makes us believe the Church by the Scripture or rather makes us believe the Scripture by the Church I say that the Holy Ghost begins by the Church and it must be so since 't is manifestly the Church that puts the Scripture in our hands Nevertheless Mr. Claude leaves me here and begins to walk alone but he falls at the very first step into a Precipice For his Fear of acknowledging an infallible Authority in the true Church and of believing that on her word we may make an Act of divine and super-natural Faith concerning the Scripture obliges him to say that 't is not possible to begin the reading of the Holy Scripture by such an Act of Faith and that every Act of Faith which precedes this Reading is an Act of human Faith See the deporable Condition in which he puts a Christian at his first going to read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude cannot get forth of this Abyss without returning to the place where he began to leave me and saying afterwards with me that there is a true Church wheresoever she is the veneration of which the Holy Ghost first inspires into true Believers that by this Veneration which he at first puts in their Hearts he fixes them to the Scripture which this Church presents them that this Church requires also of all those she can instruct that they adore upon her word the infallible Truth of this Scripture and acknowledges not for her Children those which have only an human Faith for it But say they the Roman Church is not the sole which attributes to her self this Authority the Greek and other Churches will have one believe them on their word and teach that this is the Means to read the Holy Scripture with the
not this Difficulty TO shew Vid. Sup. p. 2 3. seq that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church I laid for a Foundation that in a Confession of Faith such as this Creed was Words were us'd in their most natural and most simple Signification and I added that the word Church signify'd so naturally the visible Church that the Pretended Reformed Authors of the Chimera of an invisible Church in all their Confession of Faith never us'd the Word Church in this Sense but only to express the visible Church cloath'd with the Sacraments with the word and with all the publick Ministery See the Passages of the Confession of Faith I have related with the Consequences I have drawn from them I was not the first who made this Remark 't was a National Synod of the Pretended Reformed These Gentlemen who had so much preacht the invisible Church and who being press'd upon the Succession grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession of which they made use wondred they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church Surpriz'd with this Language so natural to Christians but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap sur la Conf. de Foy art 3. in the Synod of Gap in the Chapter which has for its Title On the Confession of Faith 'T is by this all the Synods begin and the first thing that is done in them is to review this Confession of Faith which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches review'd and corrected in the National Synod But let us come to the Decree of Gap of which these are the words The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods in what Terms the XXV Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be coucht forasmuch as being to express what we believe touching the Catholick Church of which mention is made in the Creed there is nothing in the said Confession that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church as also in the XXIX Article they shall see whether it be fit to adde the Word Pure to the Word the Church which is in the said Article and in general all shall come prepar'd on the matters of the Church We have related the Substance of this XXV Article You may in the same place see the XXVI Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles And for the XXIX Article it says that the true Church ought to be govern'd according to the Policy which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has establisht that is that there be Pastors Overseers and Deacons to the end the pure Doctrin may have its Course and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church which they deliberated to add to that of true is founded on a Doctrin of the Pretended Reformed which says that a true Church may not be pure because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixt I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by but 't is not here in question What there is important is that these People who say they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrin of the Gospel being to explicate as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith the Church of which mention is made in the Creed spake nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church I could easily tell you the Reason 't is that this Church of which mention is made in the Creed is indeed the visible Church 't is that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility and the word Catholick is so far from derogating from it that it supposes it 't is that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas the words bear with them than according to the Refinements and Interpretations one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty Thus the invisible Church presented not it self at all to our Reformed when they fram'd their Confession of Faith the sense of the visible Church appear'd only in it there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke they began to find it strange that a Church which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church and of a Church of the Predestinate should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith but have left it for evident that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society so that to speak truly the Succession of the Church would no longer be shewn without shewing the Succession of her Visibility a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation 'T was this inclin'd the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepar'd upon the matters of the Church which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed which are not yet understood and which will make all those Catholicks that can throughly understand them But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair 'T was to awaken all understandings 't was too visibly to mark the Defect and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it The Confession review'd and corrected Thus in the Synod of Rochel held in 1607 't was resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith the invisible Church has no part in it and one draws from it Consequences as one can That Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw pinches them for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith as conformable in all points to the Scripture they must tell us that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture and that from the Scripture it has pass'd naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians into the Confessions of Faith and consequently into the Creed which is not only the best authoriz'd of all Confessions of Faith but also the most simple Mr. Claude answers us Man Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes and that by Process of time Words often depart from their first and natural Signification and that besides thô it should be true as I have said that the word Church taken simply should signify the visible Church the word Vniversal would change this Signification But he shall not escape us by this
Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against â—erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordiâ—ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary foâ— the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpeâ—â—al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
of JESVS CHRIST Mr. Claude in all his Manuscript Answer but principally in the second and fourth Question will perswade me that I consider the Church as a Society meerly exterior constituted in its Essence by a single Profession of believing without believing indeed whose whole Nature and Essence consists in bare Exteriors and Appearances without reality whose Vnity is only an Vnity of Profession an exterior Vnity so that the interior is only in it by Accident and that thô there should be neither Faithful nor Just in it but that it should be wholly compos'd of Hypocrites it would not cease to be the true Church Behold indeed a frightful Idea of the Church and I wonder not that Mr. Claude has an horror of it it is also as far from my Mind and the Mind of all Catholicks as Heaven is from Hell and I know not how Mr. Claude could read my Instructions without seeing in them the clean contrary to what he imposes on me Since the Reader has now these Instructions before his Eyes I desire him to pass them over again in this Impression Vid. Sup. p. 6. He will find there indeed that 't is of the Essence of the Church to be visible by Preaching and by the Sacraments but he will find there also that the Elect and the Saints are the most noble Part of it that they are there sanctify'd that they are there regenerated often also by the ministery of the Reprobate ◠that they must not be consider'd as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of it He will find there Ibid. that 't is of the Essence of the Church because she is holy to teach always constantly and without varying an holy Doctrin but he will find that this holy Doctrin which she incessantly teaches continually brings forth Saints in her Vnity and that by this Doctrin she instructs and contains in her Bosom the Elect of GOD. Do they call this a bare Profession of JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin without reality and a meet Heap of Hypocrites He will find Sup. p. 7. seq that Hell cannot prevail against the visible and exterior Society of the Church but he will find also that 't is because it cannot prevail against the Elect who are the purest and most spiritual part of this Church 'T is I say because it cannot prevail against the Elect that it cannot prevail against the Church which teaches them in which they confess the Gospel and receive the Sacraments Thus instead of believing that this Church which subsists eternally can according to our Principles subsist without the Elect 't is on the contrary seen that we consider the Elect as making the most essential Part and Strength of this Church He will find that 't is of the Essence of the Church till the general Resurrection Sup. p. 9 10. to have the Ecclesiastical Ministery which renders her visible but he will find also that the effect of this Ministery is to bring the Children of GOD to the perfect Stature of JESVS CHRIST that is to Perfection which after it has rendred them holy will render them glorious both in Body and Soul In fine he will find there the exterior and interior Communion of the Faithful with JESUS CHRIST Sup. p. 11. and of the Faithful amongst themselves the interior Communion by Charity and in the Holy Ghost who animates us but at the same time the exterior Communion in the Sacraments in the Confession of Faith and in all the exterior Ministery of the Church Whence I concluded Ibid. that 't is not only the Society of the Predestinate which shall subsist for ever but that 't is the visible Body in which the Predestinate are included which preaches to them which teaches them which regenerates them by Baptism which 〈◊〉 them by the Eucharist which administers to them the Keys which governs them and keeps them united under Discipline which forms JESUS CHRIST in them 'T is this visible Body that shall subsist for ever 'T is seen by this that instead of making a Church whose Communion is of its own nature meerly exterior and interior only by Accident the Foundation of the Church is on the contrary the interior Communion of which the exterior Communion is the Mark and that the Effect of this Mark is to shew that the Children of GOD are kept and inclos'd under this Seal 'T is seen also that the Elect are the last End for which all is done in the Church and those whom all her Ministery ought principally to serve so that they make the most essential Part and as I may say the very Ground of the Church If then I have spoken more of the exterior Communion than of the interior Communion of the Church 't is plainly seen that this can be only for the Reason I have mention'd to wit that the Pretended Reformed being agreed with us that the Foundation as I may say of the Church is her interior Union I needed only establish the exterior the necessity of which these Gentlemen contest Thus when I said at first in my Instruction that the Church was the Society which confess'd the true Faith Mr. Claude ought to have understood that this Confession of the Mouth excluded not the Belief of the Heart but rather suppos'd it in the Living and essential part of the Church of which I spake not then because it was not the Question I had to propose and resolve To conclude from this Silence that I admitted no other Union essential to the Body of the Church but this exterior Union is the same as if one that should have undertaken to explain only those exterior Ligaments which keep human Bodies united on the outside and include as I may say in one and the same Continent with the living Members the Nails the Hair the peccant Humors and even the dead Members not yet cut off from the Body should be therefore made believe that he acknowledges no other Principle of Union and under this Pretence it should be said of him that according to this mans Principles there might be an human Body which should be only Hair Nails rotten Members and peccant Humors without having any thing living in effect This is what Mr. Claude does when he concludes from my Discourse that the Church of JESVS CHRIST may be only an Amass of wicked persons and Hypocrites But this will appear farther in what follows by Mr. 〈◊〉 own Principles 't is sufficient for me in this place to shew him that this Church meerly exterior which he call the Church of the Cardinals Bellarmin and du Perron and of M. de Candom is a Church that subsists only in his imagination and one may believe by his manner of judging my Sentiments that he no better understood those of these illustrious Cardinals The Tenth REFLEXION On the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies