but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
FISHERS folly unfolded OR THE VAVNTING IESVITES VANITY discovered in a challenge of his by him proudly made but on his part poorely performed VNDER TAKEN AND answered by GEORGE VVALKER Pastor of S. IOHN Euangelist in Watlingstreet LONDON M. D.C.XXIIII FISHERS folly unfolded OR THE VAVNTING Iesuits vanitie discovered in a challenge of his by him proudly made but on his part poorely performed undertaken and answered by GEORGE WALKER Pastor of S. IOHN Euangelist in Watlingstreet LONDON IN the hot Moneth of Iune last past viz. Anno 1623. when the courages of our true-hearted English people were generally much cooled through the absence of our rising Sunne the illustrious Prince CHARLES then detained too long in Spaine among the Antipodes of our Nation but the Priests and Iesuites those hot lovers of the Romish Babylon enraged with the lusts of that proud whore and puffed up with hope of prevailing in this Land were as busie as waspes and hornets about our beehives and as wolves about our folds seducing our flocks and sending generall challenges of disputation to our Shepherds every where It so hapned that Father Fisher the Iesuit a man as famous for his forwardnesse and impudencie in challenging as foolish in performance and of as great esteeme and name among the blinde Papists as of little worth in himselfe and in the judgement of wise learned men was by the meanes and procurement of one of his disciples drawne into the lists to fight a single combat with Master Walker above named in manner and forme following First a disciple of his a desperate Popish Novice resorting often to the house of an elder brother of his owne who dwelt in Cheapside and as the fashion of such seduced Popelings is railing upon the religion and vilifying the learning and gifts of Protestants did most intemperately extoll the Church of Rome and the learning of her Priests especially of Fisher the Iesuit whom he did by name praise to the heavens for his disputation with Doctor White before the Kings Majestie and did not only boast of a glorious victory which there he had obtained but also did proclaime him a challenger of all Preachers in England and did dare the most hardie to meet him face to face in any place or before any Auditors where they might dispute conveniently A younger brother of his who was a Protestant and lived in the house with his elder brother being often assailed and attempted by him and not able to endure any longer his boasting and daring speeches did by his elder brother and others importune Master Walker to accept the challenge which he did upon condition that a convenient day might be agreed upon and appointed by both parties That the challenge is accepted they signifie to their Popish brother Fishers Novice He wonders that any dare be so hardie as to yeeld so far in promise and tels them that the promise will never be performed neither will any Protestant Minister be so bold as to meet his invincible Master Fisher but being urged and pressed to make a triall hee brings word at length upon a Satturday at night that the next Munday the Iesuit Fisher will come to his brothers house to encounter with any opposite whomsoever They send word to Master Walker who having urgent businesse desired to have the meeting deferred till the next day or till the evening of that day but could not obtaine so much neverthelesse because he would in no case forgoe that opportunitie of disputation with Fisher nor give occasion to the insulting Novice to triumph who upon his excuse of urgent businesse in that day began to boast that the victorie was gotten and that he knew and foretold before hand how they should finde it and that no Protestant durst be so hardie as to meet Fisher in the face he willingly did lay aside all businesse and promising to be ready at the time appointed sent word to the Iesuit that if he did not appeare at his owne houre which was upon Munday at ten of the clocke before noone he should be judged the coward and left without all excuse At the houre appointed Master Walker came and heard nothing of the Iesuit for he came not till toward dinner time but then comming with his Novice who was brother to the master of the house he was entertained with a dinner till Master Walker was againe sent for Who about one of the clocke returned and by the way called upon Master Burton Pastor of S. Matthewes parish in Friday street and did request him to goe along with him and to be a witnesse of the whole cariage of the businesse At their first entrance Master Fisher complained because they came two against one Master Burton did assure him that he came onely to be an hearer and promised that he would not speake nor intermeddle except when both parties should agree to it Then divers friends and neighbours to the Master of the house comming in to heare and see what passed Master Walker began to speake to the Jesuit as followeth Mr. Walker Sir if that fame and report which you and your friends have raised and which goeth abroad concerning your worth and learning be true you must needs be a man able to doe more for the Romish religion than any other of your fellowes now living or of your predecessors going before We who have heard of your bold intrusion into the Court and the presence of our learned King and of your challenges which you have made and sent to Doctor White and other men of great learning and note doe expect from you some extraordinarie grounds and arguments for the Popish religion and such skill and learning as hath not beene seene before in any of your profession Our desire is therefore that at this time you will make knowne unto us some of your best skill and shew us some of the chiefe grounds upon which you build your faith and religion And I for my part if I cannot overthrow them by Gods word will very willingly yeeld unto them and acknowledge that you have the truth on your side The Iesuit at the mention of his great fame and report shewed a kinde of itching delight and used never a word tending by way of modestie to extenuate his learning and gifts but as one desirous to increase his owne fame and to justifie the report which the blinde Papists give out concerning his worth breaks out with a smiling sigh into a Pharisaicall commendation of himselfe to this effect Mr. Fisher. Indeed I must confesse that I have alwaies from my childhood loved the truth and diligently sought after it Once I was a Protestant God forgive me and did with an hungring desire inquire after the truth but could never receive any satisfaction among any sects of Protestants but spent my labour in vaine still remaining full of doubts and scruples Whereupon I did with all humilitie fasting and prayer seeke unto God and pray unto him to guide me into the way
of truth Who at length for my humilitie and the sinceritie of my heart did grant my request and did draw me unto the Catholike Church where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon from which I purpose never to be moved but will hold me to it for ever Mr. Burton Mr. Burton grieved to heare the Iesuit boasting after such a Pharisaicall manner could not refraine but taxed him of pride and hypocrisie for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true religion as he termed it to the merit of his owne humilitie sinceritie and his praiers which he made before his conversion while he remained in ignorance Mr. Walker Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words and offered to prove that the Iesuit did erre most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and religion in that he builded his first calling upon the merit of his owne vertues and of his works which he performed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindnesse He also taxed him of manifest absurditie and contradiction in his speech in that he first so farre vilified and condemned the Protestant state and counted it so sinfull and damnable that he asked forgivenesse of God for his once being a Protestant and yet immediatly did attribute his conversion and calling into the Catholike Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed Moreover he charged him with extreame folly and madnesse for abandoning and forsaking that Church state wherein by his owne confession he did performe works meritorious and betaking himselfe to the service and slaverie of the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is shewed in Gods word Revel 19. to be the wrath of God and eternall vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore For answer to these obiections the Iesuit complained that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once And Master Burton desiring to bee excused for that he could not but out of his zeale reprove his palpable boasting of his owne merits promised to be silent hereafter if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker Then the Iesuit proceeded and spake to this effect Mr. Fisher. The Church of Rome of which I am a member is the onely true Catholike Church for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it and hath not altered nor erred in any maine point but holds the same still which all true Catholike and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach as here is manifestly shewed and proved in this booke by Gualtherius meaning Gualtherius his Chronographica sacra which there hee had brought and laid before him on the table who doth produce plaine testimonies of the Fathers in all ages from the time of Christ confirming the maine points of the Roman Catholike religion wherein Protestants dissent from Catholikes I doe challenge you to shew the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold which because you cannot doe it is manifest that you have not the truth neither are a true Church Mr. Walker Well Master Fisher if this be the best ground which you have to build vpon wee shall easily answer you and make it appeare that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be and that you build on a sandie foundation I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures and hewed out of the rocke of Gods word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine but I perceive that the best testimonie which you have to alleage for your Religion is that booke composed by one of your owne side and all you can say for your selfe is as the old Proverbe runnes Aske my fellow theese if I be a true man which you know it stands him upon to affirme whether true or false As for â—â—â—â—â—rius hee is as bold impudent and shamelesse a Paâ—â—st as needs put pen to paper For those testimoniâ—s of forged Fathers and of old Liturgies which all the learned of your Religion who have any wit learning or dram of modestie appearing in them have reiected he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofes without any shame or blushing If I should for our Religion cite and produce a booke of Luther or Calvin or any other Protestant you would laugh mee to scorne yea you reiect the bookes of the Fathers printed or set forth among us though you could never iustly tax or convince any one of us of partiall dealing or of the least wilfull falsification Let mee further admonish you that you shew little discretion in bringing humane testimonies especially of late writers to maintaine your Religion against me or to confute my Religion For I am as you know a Preacher of the Gospell one of them whom yee call Protestants and wee doe not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the head corner stone We doe not regard in a controverted point of faith what any Father or Doctor doth hold or hath held in former ages but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles haue left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament and what the Fathers haue truly from thence observed We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture and opinions which are doubtfull but wee doe as they desired denie their testimonies to bee grounds of faith Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses and let us come to a strict forme of disputation about some maine points of controversie If you be pleased to oppose any speciall article of our faith I will defend it or if you will take upon you to answer I will prove against you That your father the Pope is Antichrist That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon That your doctrine of merit of iustification before God by your owne workes is hereticall And that your Image-worship is damnable idolatrie Mr. Fisher. If you bee so forward to dispute I am for you and I come for that purpose But have you no other points to prove saue these That the Pope is Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three yeeres agoe when you came to me in the New-prison belike you spend all your time and studie in these questions Mr. Walker It is true that I desired to dispute upon these questions foure yeeres agoe and then you refused I hope you have since studied how to defend them though then you were unprovided Indeed I doe offer these questions first of all to every Priest and Iesuit with whom I meet because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Poperie but you
doe appeale to all here present whether this be not a meere wrangling shift to avoid disputation for the present And I doe here charge you if your owne conscience doth not inwardly tell you that either your Religion is so false that it cannot be defended or you your selfe so unlearned that you are unable to maintaine it that you doe without further delay agree to dispute with me vpon some maine points of controuersie betweene Protestants and Papists If you refuse I will tax you for a faint hearted coward and dastard and so esteeme you hereafter at all times Mr. Fisher. But if I yeeld to dispute with you who shall be Iudge betweene us Mr. Walker The chiefe judge of all shall be the word of God and these hearers shall judge of the forme and cariage of our disputation and to whom the victory doth belong Mr. Fisher. They know not the word of God neither can you your selfe certainly tell which is the true word of God M. Walker Yes I haue it here at hand to shew and taking out of his pocket Plantines Hebrew Bible in octauo without pricks bound with a Syriacke and Greeke Testament Loe saith he here is the true word of God even the whole Scriptures of the old and new Testament in the originall tongues wherein they were first spoken by the spirit of God and written by his penmen Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that this booke is the word of God and the originall Scriptures Mr. Walker I know that all not only Protestants but Papists acknowledge and confesse it so to be First Papists because Arias Montanus a great learned Doctor of the Church of Rome did set it forth and Plantine a Catholike Printer did print it and that at the charges of Philip the second your great Catholike King of Spaine so that you being a Romane Catholike cannot except you have cast off all shamefastnesse but acknowledge it for the word of God in the originall tongues Secondly we Protestants are so confident of the infallible truth of the word contained in this booke that we altogether build our faith and religion upon it Mr. Fisher. How doe you know that Plantine printed this booke Mr. Walker Loe here the title page where it is testified to be printed by him at Antwerp and the yeere of the world according to the lesse account of the Iewish Rabbins is here specified with these words he shewed the book and page to Fisher who discerning it to be printed in such a Character as he could not reade put it from him as if he had beene afraid to looke on it Whereupon Master Walker began to play upon him and taking advantage of his ignorance made the company some sport saying What Master Fisher are you a learned Iesuit and one of the Popes great champions and yet can you not reade this faire print I cry you mercy Graecum est non potest legi yea it is worse than so it is Hebrew printed in Hebrew words and letters which to the common sort of Popish Priests is more terrible and dreadfull than conjuring figures But in good sadnesse can you not reade it or doe you but dissemble Master Fisher I am afraid by your gestures that you are in earnest and your countenance doth make me so confident of your ignorance that I will adventure my booke upon it and though I will not otherwise take twenty shillings for it yet I here before all this company promise to give it you for your paines if you can but reade one sentence in it out of the originall text Which offer when Fisher refused some of the standers by laughed at him others wondred whether this were Fisher the Iesuit and made a question of it Master Burton who had promised silence observing the Iesuits folly by this behaviour and other idle speeches told him that he must give him leave to laugh and not be offended for he had by his promise at the beginning bound himselfe from speaking but not from laughing Mr. Fisher. The Iesuit plunged into this perplexitie thought it best to be gone and said that his businesse called him away he could stay no longer Mr. Walker Mr. Walker answered that this was an idle excuse For saith he you know Master Fisher that this day and houre was appointed by your selfe and set apart for disputation and though my businesse was great I was forced to lay all aside for this worke because no other day nor time would be accepted Therefore it is very unlikely that any businesse should now call you away or that you should appoint this time for any other imployment except you came either in hope to finde no adversarie which durst encounter you or with purpose if any appeared to shift off disputation by some such device By these and such speeches as also by the importunitie of the standers-by the Iesuit was detained and falling into the question about the infallible word of God after many speeches which passed to and fro about the originall Scriptures and the translations which was most authenticall and which translations the best and most uncorrupt and free from grosse errors Master Walker to cut off all needlesse discourse about such questions did very earnestly demand of the Iesuit whether he thought the vulgar Latine translation of the Bible to be the most pure uncorrupt and authenticall edition of the Scriptures and the true word of God according to the determination of the Councell of Trent Mr. Fisher. Fisher answered that he held it to be the uncorrupt word of God and the most authentike edition of the Scriptures Mr. Walker And though I doe much dissent from you in this opinion saith Master Walker and doe hold that of all translations which are of any esteeme among Christians there is none so full of errors and mistakings even in the judgement of S. Hierome himselfe upon whom the Papists falsly father it yet so far I doe approve of it that I doe not doubt but any learned Divine may easily gather teach and confirme out of it all doctrines which are necessarie to salvation For whatsoever necessarie truth is omitted in one place by mis-translatiō it is plainly expressed in some other places of the same which are truly and faithfully translated And here I doe make a faire offer and most equall motion to you before all here present viz. That I will undertake to make a plaine confession of the Protestants faith and of all the articles of religion which the Church of England holds necessarie to salvation in the very words and sentences of the vulgar Latine Bible without any materiall alteration at all upon condition that you when I have made good my word and promise will grant and acknowledge that the confession so made is a true confession of the true Christian faith and that all such articles are to be received and embraced for articles of the true religion Mr. Fisher. This offer when the Iesuit refused to accept he was much condemned