but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
onely it is meet that we obserue in his Epistle Dedicatory that he maketh the point now in hand one of those whereat he trembles when he does but heare it If there be any cause why it will shew it selfe by his arguments and answeres for it if he be naked in them we may conclude that he feares without a cause and runnes when none pursues Enough hath bin said already to driue this conclusion to the head we haue proved that the Romish faith is erronious by arguments that are not nor can be refelled and who would require more to argue her faith to be vnable and altogether vnfit to lead a man to heaven Can an erronious faith shew a man the way to heaven Surely it can not because it sits beside the divine Revelation which is the onely record wherein the way to life is referved for vs. I say heaven and eternall happinesse is only to be found in Gods Revelation and who will not beleiue me for where the end is aboue nature the meanes thereto must needes be so also What need I then to trouble my selfe and the Reader with more arguments But seeing it will not saue our labour some are so contentious and will not rest in truthes apparent therefore such must be met withall and their endeavours prevented as the frugall man weedes his feild that his grayne may be the better vnto sight and service CHAP. 9. Our Opponent B. his first Argument WEe are now come to the second part of this Discourse wherein the Arguments for the contrary party are propounded and refuted and I will begin with our Opponent B. who brings his first Argument pag. 31. to this effect The seat of Antichaist is the true Church for hee sitts in Gods Temple 2 Thess 2.4 But the present Romish Church is the seate of Antichrist Therefore the present Romish Church is the true Church The Proposition of this Argument is set forth pag 36. The conclusion is implyed in the title of Chap 8 pag 31 The assumption is wanting I answere he is confident that no man can deny the Proposition pag. 38. but sayes nothing of the Assumption and no maruaile for that beggs the question by presuming that the Pope is Antichrist a point to many more doubtfull then the present conclusion But that fault though it spoiles all for this time shall goe for nothing The Proposition is not onely false but it is impossible to be true for the seat of Antichrist is a certaine space or place that receiveth the person of Antichrist and where he governes Reuel 16.19.17.9.18 â—0 The true Church is a society of men professing the revealed truth If then this profession be that place or necessarily flowes from the internall being thereof which is impossible then his Proposition may be true The Assumption hath the same fault the Romish Church is a society professing their religion now it is not possible for the person of Antichrist to be contained in the profession of religion as in a space or place To conclude if we put this Syllogisme into its true and naturall termes these will be the words thereof The space containing the person of Antichrist is that society of men which professeth the revealed verities But that society which professeth the Romish religion is the space containing Antichrist Therefore that society which profess eth the Romish religion is that society which professeth the revealed verities But every child that knowes chalke from cheese will laugh at this therefore it shall passe as ridiculous He does imagine that we will say in answere to this Argument that Antichristianity cannot argue the Church to be Christian being the bane and plaine overthrow of Christianity Pag. 36. I answer we doe not thus answer to this Argument neither need we vnlesse our answer should be as fond as his proofe and experience will now iustifie the same we haue answered otherwayes and yet his reason is refelled Keep your kindnesse for your friend and answer for vs when wee need it wee know Sophocles said true The guift of an enemy is no guift In the rest of this 8. chapter he hunts the wild goose chase but all his long discourse and many words amounteth in the totall vnto thus much The Iewes Church in their worst estate was the true Church of God Some of Gods people are in Babylon Therefore many heretofore and some at this day being outwardly of the Church of Rome wee may iustly notwithstanding challenge to our selves The Opponent C. shall answer him pag. 3. Prooue and apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue two new paire of Sizors A recompence too great for such a workeman yet let me tell you the Iewes Church at no time was equall or stood in the same termes or condition with the present Romish Church for they alwayes retained the true and vndoubted foundation of faith they relied onely vpon Gods authority the revealer of sacred things so as what ever they believed they so believed because God revealed it they thrust not in the authority of man between the sacred revelation and their faith and credence so as still they enioyed at least the meanes for getting of divine faith and consequently salvation it selfe but so it is not with the Romish Church as manifestly appeareth in former passages cap. 4. num 7. c. whereupon we may conclude Though the Iewish Church was the true Church of God yet that will not inferre the Romish Church to be so also Moreover the Iewes defection was in matter of practise rather then of precept when they failed in doctrine it was peculiar to some not vniversall and common to all that Church their errour was matter of opinion not of faith for no publick authority of theirs did command that opinion or misbeliefe to bee vniversally received as being divinely revealed But with the Church of Rome the matter is altogether otherwise Their errour is first in precept and then in practise this errour is common to all in that Church no man can be exempted therefrom vnlesse he will professe himselfe to be none of theirs Againe that errour of the Romish Church is adiudged to be revealed by God and commaunded to be received by all the members of that Church by an authority that pretendeth freedome from erring and power of enioying so as whatsoever is so commanded must be obeyed without delay or inquiring as is shewed cap. 4. num 7. c. wherefore we need not doubt to say the one lost not the truth of a Church the other hath not the truth of a Church We may allow God a share in some that dwell in Babylon but what is that share Even persons elected but not yet called and vnto such God commandeth that they Come out of Babylon and they shall heare and obey in their appointed time But what is this to vs Elected persons not called are such members of the Church as are vnknowne to vs and therefore are reckoned to appertaine to the Church invisible but
Authour and place of that opinion This we say and haue said it already They haue no Sacraments because they haue no divine faith And we thinke this consequence is good because the Sacraments haue no being nor vse but in order vnto and in presupposall of the divine faith and I suppose our strictest Opponent will say no lesse for if the Sacraments might be inioyed in their true and reall being and naturall efficacy where divine faith is wanting then Turks and Heathen men might haue them which I know this Opponent at least will deny because The Sacraments are peculiars to the Church making men Christians and Christianity makes the Church for thus he writeth pag. 117. and 119. Hee promised to forbeare his proofes till hee found his position denied but the heate within him whereof we reade in his English Epistle would not giue way to that wherefore pag. 118. he alledgeth two and I will report them in true forme that the Reader may see their soundnesse In the first he concludes thus If they Baptise with water in the name of the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost then their Baptisme is good for here is water and the words of Christs Institution the one the matter and the other the forme and both essentiall to Baptisme I answere I deny the consequence as naught in it selfe and as ill proved the reason of my deniall is given already so as I might be silent here but repetition will bee vsefull often practise makes things and men more expert and facile This proofe supposeth that Nothing is essentiall to Baptisme that is nothing by Christs institution is of necessity requisite vnto the Sacrament of Baptisme but water and the words of Institution I answere In the Sacrament of Baptisme administred according to Christs ordinance wee conceiue a being or entitie comprehended vnder certaine limits as all vnite and individuall things are taking that Sacrament as an individuall being made by motion there is nothing required to the being thereof but the water and words of institution and so farre this Argument supposeth rightly but nothing against vs for we doe not deny an entitie or being vnto Popish Baptisme we know when water is powred on and the words pronounced there is a motion and a thing made by motion which was not before and is distinct from all other motions or things made by motion In the Sacrament so truly administred there is likewise besides the said individuall entity or being a certaine connotation or essentiall relation and that three wayes 1. Of man to God 2. Of the Sacrament it selfe 3. Of God vnto man In the first relation man shewes his obedience to God In the second and third man is ordered vnto heaven so farre as the Sacrament can man being thereby confirmed in the expectation of Gods loue and the receit of inherent grace Now vnto this relation or ordering to heaven more things are essentiall then water and the words of institution namely the sacred revelation believed by a divine faith which I say doth so order vs to heaven by commanding their vse and promising Gods favour and working grace to such as vse them rightly from the first ariseth our obedience from the second our assured expectation of his favour and grace and thus much this Opponent himselfe will confesse I doubt not Nothing I presume will be questioned in this answere but this distinction but I suppose no such thing will bee because the matter is cleere in it selfe the name Sacrament importeth that there is this connotation or relation over and aboue the vnite and individuall entitie thereof for it signifieth at least that the vnite and individuall thing is sacred and holy and that is more then the individuall entity it selfe but howsoever it be with others this Opponent must not oppose the latter branch of the distinction for himselfe doth teach it expressely if not more fully then I haue set forth thus he writeth pag. 47. The very being and nature of the Sacraments consisteth altogether in relation to some such gift and grace supernaturall as God onely can bestow These things are sufficient as I conceiue to satisfie his first argument in behalfe of Popish Baptisme His second followeth in this forme If the Baptisme in the Romish Church bee not true then it must be iterated when they turne to vs. But the Romish Baptisme may not be iterated when they turne to vs. Therefore the Baptisme in the Romish Church is true Baptisme I answere if by true Baptisme he vnderstandeth all things of necessitie requyred vnto Baptisme then this conclusion serues our purpose in the present question for we inquyre and search after such a Baptisme otherwise not In that sence the consequence of the Proposition is vnsound and he brings nothing to proue it wherefore it stands refelled for in this case our negation is better then his affirmation he that alledgeth must proue or loose his action by the course of all courts in the world Yet for this time I will depart from mine owne right and giue a reason for my denyall because I desire to satisfie the Reader and this I say Although their Baptisme want some things which of necessitie are requyred thereunto by the institution of Christ yet from hence will it not follow that it ought to be repeated because where Baptisme is repeated there all things essentiall thereunto by Christs institution must be wantting for repetition argues a nullitie But in the Romish Baptisme some things essentiall thereunto by Christs institution are present namely 1 the water 2 The words of institution 3 An outward profession of Christianitie The first and second are essentiall to Baptisme as it is an individuall being and the third is one vse and end thereof So as thus the case stands betweene vs Their Baptisme is refused because the sacreed revelation beleived by a divine faith goes not with it It is retained because the water the words of institution and the outward profession of Christianitie goes with it and herein we doe well because for want of the first it cannot order vs to heaven and by the presence of the rest wee follow the institution of Christ when they come vs we cannot giue them of the water of the words of institution and of outward Christian profession more then they haue already All that we doe when they come to vs is to perfect what is begun and supply what is wanting I answere moreover Though I will not deny the Assumption yet if any should this Opponents proofe could not rescue it for thus he argues Papists with us may not bee baptized againe because such as former hereticks baptized were not to be baptized againe This consequence I say is naught because the Popish Church and former hereticks doe really differ for these are farre worse then they as Bishop Carleton hath abundantly proved in his Direction to know the true Church and here ends my answere to his third Argument He concludes this present
the Scriptures vnto the Churches Iudgement they would haue vs beleeue that the Church must tell vs which be the Scriptures and which be not else we can haue no divine faith of them for reason tells vs they must haue authority in all points of faith or none at all This decree of the Councel thus vnderstood is followed by all their Divines and Suarez giues it vs in this one sentence A generall Councell in which the Pope is present either in his owne person or by his Legats and confirmed by the Pope is an infallible rule of Faith And this is a matter of Faith De Fide c. Tracta 1. Disp 5. Sect. 7. No. 6. 9. Bellarmine delivereth the selfe same matter in a most ample large manner in divers places in his third booke of Gods word and I will report them in order as they stand and thus he begins Cap. 3. Tota igitur The Church that is the Pope with his Councell of other Pastors is the Iudge of the true sense of the Scriptures in which all Catholikes agree and the Councell of Trent hath it expresly Sess 4. It is committed singularly to Peter and his Successours that they should teach all men what is to be held concerning the doctrine of Faith Cap. 5. Ex his c. The Councels and Popes execute the office of a Iudge committed to them by God a Iudge delivereth his sentence as a thing that necessarily must be followed Cap. 10. Respond aliud est Christians are bound to receiue the doctrine of the Church when it setteth forth the matters of faith and not to doubt whether those things be so or not Cap. 10. sept argumentum Hitherto he setteth forth the matter in grosse and not vnfoulded wherefore we must seeke for that also and we shall finde the same in the said 10. Chapter and first he giveth vs a reason why the Church should haue this office committed to her in these words The Scripture for it selfe needs not the witnesse of men for it is most true in it selfe whether it be vnderstood or not but for our sake it needs the witnesse of the Church because otherwise we are not certaine what bookes are sacred and divine or what is the true and proper meaning Cap. 10. Respondeo Christus Hitherto wee finde these authors concurring with the Councell in the sense aforesaid and thereby our Assumption at num 7. is confirmed wherein we say Their Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath an office to determine which is the true faith that is what is revealed and what is not revealed and we must know that their judgement is not a private opinion but the faith of their Church Suarez saith so expresly in the place alledged and the thing it selfe doth say no lesse of them both for they agree with the Councell and all on their side agree with them none of theirs doe deny what they affirme If any man think not so he must shew the contrary which yet I never found Wherefore we need not doubt of the conclusion wherein we maintaine That their Church is the foundation of their faith being the thing we vndertooke to prooue num 7. Though this be enough to manifest the matter yet I will adde some other proofe from the testimony of their Church to iustifie the same conclusion because I would haue the thing made easie to our vnderstanding as well as proved to be true by force of argument Now Bellarmine doth all this in most plaine and evident manner in the place following The word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles is the first foundation of our faith for therefore we beleeve whatsoever we beleeue because God hath revealed it by his Prophets and Apostles but wee adde that besides this first foundation there is another secondary foundation needfull to wit the testimony of the Church for we know not certainly what God hath revealed but by the testimony of the Church Therefore our faith cleaveth to Christ the first truth revealing those mysteries as to the first foundation It cleaves also to Peter that is to the Pope propounding and expounding these mysteries as to a second foundation Cap. 10. Respondeo ad hoc If any man desire to see this precept manifested by practise he does that also after this sort Wee are to know that a Proposition or Article of faith is concluded in such a Syllogisme as this Whatsoever God hath revealed is true But this God hath revealed Therefore this is true Of the first of these Propositions no man makes any question The second is held for certaine truth amongst all Catholiks for it is grounded vpon the testrmony of the Church Cap. 10. Respondeo verbum To conclude I will report another testimony of his whereby the whole frame of this building is brought to perfection and for that end thus he writeth A precept of faith is to be prooued foure wayes 1. By expresse testimony of Scripture with a declaration of the Church 2. By euident deduction out of expresse Scripture with a declaration of the Church being added thereunto 3. Out of Gods word not written by the Apostles but deliuered from hand to hand 4. By eutdent deduction out of the word of God deliuered from hand to hand De Purga lib. 1. cap. 15. Haec sive Neither is this doctrine Bellarmines fancy but it is the Romish faith for it is warranted by the testimony of all the learned in that Church and the Decree of the Trent Councell already recited n. 8. for when it giues the Church the office to Iudge of the sense of the Scriptures it grants that the Scriptures are in being already and therefore that they are the revealers of the Sacred verities and consequently the first foundation of our faith When it subiecteth the sense onely of the Scriptures to the iudgement of the Church it giues the Church authority to propound expound and apply the Scriptures and therefore it makes the Church a second foundation and no more By this time I hope it is evident enough that the authority of the Church is the foundation that is the next and formall reason of their faith and beleeving and that is the thing wee seeke for Now we should prooue that this foundation of their Faith is false and erronious for that is the second thing propounded in this chapter num 7. But I will spare that labour at this time because none of ours as I conceiue will call it into question besides if any do Mr. Wotton in the book recited even now hath made it manifest against all opposers pag. 21. num 5. c. If therefore any man desires to see it I referre him thither because it fitteth not this businesse to transcribe it And thus much may suffice in proofe of our Assumption propounded cap. 3. num 1. CHAP. 5. Defendeth this sentence The Romish faith is erronius BOth our opponents are mightily gravelled with this sentence and all such as hold
it wherefore in both their Epistles Dedicatory they propound it and blame it as a thorne in their eyes that may not be indured Our opponent B. disputeth against this at large but according as I haue done before so will I doe now his long and tedious discourse shall be contracted into a narrow roome least the reader be wearied with the length and pusled with the matter yet still his owne words and true intent shal be followed Thus then he sayes 1 In the Church of Rome is some good 2 They teach well touching the Trinity 3 The Dominicans maintaine Gods free grace against mans freewill 4 Much good is in the twelue bookes of Alvarez and in the interpretations and Commentaries of Maldonat Lorynus and the rest of the Iesuites pag 90. 5 Wee agree on both sides in these poynts following 1 That the bookes of the old Testament written in Hebrew are Canonicall 2 That we are instified by faith 3 That God hath made heaven and hell for mens soules after death 4 That God may be worshipped in Spirit without an Image 5 That wee are to pray vnto God by Christ 6 That there be two Sacraments 7 That Christ is really received in the Lords Supper 8 That Christ hath made one oblation of himselfe vpon the Crosse for the redemption and satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole world 9 Vnder the Papacy is much good nay all yea the very kernell of Christianity pag. 39. 40. 41. I answer our Opponent C. pag. 4. and 5. blames the man that affirmes without pooofe and makes it a Law that such an affirmation is as soone denyed as made This is the case of this opponent He telleth vs a tale of their agreement with vs in diverse particulars but he alledgeth no author book or chapter whereby we may try whether he sayes true or not if then we deny that they and wee doe thus agree all his building falls to the ground according to his partners sentence pag 4. Thus soundly he answers to the thing that doth most vrge him but for this time I am content to say they and we doe thus agree yet behold his case from himselfe pag. 82. Wee heare of a great cry and little woll pag. 83. of a man whose skill in Logick was so good that hee prooued what was granted and being granted was to no purpose Now I commend him for so doing because I perceiue he spake the very truth but himselfe gaines nothing thereby for of him it is verified to the full and that in this present answer wherein he spends the greatest part of 7 pages before he ends it viz. 39. 40. 41. 86. 87. 90. 91. yet ten words had served the turn as well as all this stâ—r If he had said no more but thus The Romish Church agrees with vs in many divine sentences he had beene as neere his purpose as now therefore we haue a great cry and little woll If he reply that all the rest prooues that sentence I reioynd I am content it shall be so because that shewes his great skill in Logick for then he prooues the thing that none will deny and being granted serues not his purpose which none will doe but the good Logician which his partner describeth If we frame this answer with the present question according to art and all the parts thereof be true then it is to the purpose else not thus then it must be framed They that agree with vs in the particulars recited their faith is not erronious But the Romish Church agrees with vs in the particulars recited Therefore their faith is not erronious But no part of this Argument is good The Proposition is not true and why may I not say so seeing in it selfe and by it selfe it is not manifest neither does he offer any proofe for it and now I haue denied it his whole building is come to ruine according to his partners-rule pag. 4. even now recited To the Proposition I answer that it presumes that the forenamed Articles are true and every way the same thing with the Romish faith and therevpon giues one state or condition to those Articles and that faith attributing truth to the second from the truth of the first These Articles in some sense are true and so farre the Proposition is true also but those Articles and the Romish faith are not the same thing but this extends further then them and himselfe even he that now answeres being iudge pag. 40. He writes thus To the Scriptures they adde Traditions to the Hebrew Canon the Apocrypha to faith workes to Heaven and Hell Purgatory and so forth in the rest whereupon his Proposition beggs the question and therefore it hath no force to inferre the conclusion His partner C. pag. 2. cannot abide beggery but this doth loue it wee le but in the meane time he is a goodly Disputer that can prooue nothing vnlesse we grant him what himselfe denies this is enough to satisfie this Argument because this feigned surmise is the first and originall foundation thereof But out of our store of exceptions hereunto for this time we will forgiue him this fault and proceed to the rest We agree with the Romish Church in the recited Articles as they are Propositions that is they and we pronounce the same thing as true so farr the Assumption is granted but the Proposition is denied because faith and a true Proposition really differs the one is no more but a subiect and predicate rightly ioyned together whereupon truth in all Propositions is the same namely the adequation of the thing and the Proposition but in faith there is also the foundation wherevpon wee beleeue from whence it comes to passe that faith is of different kindes some divine and some humane as I haue shewed In the recited Articles wee agree not with the Romish as they are Articles of faith For in them wee doe really and essentially differ They pronounce them to bee true vpon the authority of their Church which is indeed humane we vpon the authority of Christ the Revealer which by joynt consent is divine These things being true as they are most true his Assumption at num 4. cannot be true and consequently there is no meanes to excuse the Româ—sh faith from error nor cause to giue her the name and nature of a true Church which is the thing we seeke for CHAP. 6. Defendeth this sentence The faith of the Church is not right and pure false and erronious together viz. in different Articles WE must now goe back againe to the rest of opponent B. his answere left vnsatisfied in cap. 3. num 8. The first branch whereof we are now to deale withall hath these words The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as an vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church
out question is of the Church visible More then so God may require vs to come out of Babylon even vs that are not there for such a commaund is no more but to prevent our going thither forasmuch as the same person that is furthest from Babylon in this present estate is there even there already in possibility because the holiest man that liveth liveth in the flesh or humane nature and therfore may he be carried to Babylon because Babylon is heresie or at least includes it and herefie is a fruit of the flesh By this time I hope his whole discourse as well â—hat is to the purpose as what is beside the purpose is fully cleered and satisfied wherein â—hine departed from the liberty of an answerer of loue and desire to satisfie the Reader CHAP. 10. Our Opponent B. his second Argument HE vrgeth vs cap. 9. pag. 37. with a second Argument concluding after this manner That Society which wanteth the nature of a true Church denyes fundamentall truth directly not by consequence But the present Romish Church does not deny fundamentall truth directly but by consequence at the most for the Popes Arithmetick which he vseth in calculating the Articles of faith is not subrstaction but addition Therefore the present Romish Church wanteth not the nature of a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is set downe pag 41. and the title of the Chapter pag 37. The Proposition is wanting In pag. 21 22. he writeth thus Our adversaries in this cause doe bring the deniall of the foundation of faith as a medium to proue the Church of Rome to be no true Church I answere this man hath a faire gift of inventing some while he can finde an adversary that answers another while one that disputes and all is no more but his owne shadow or imagination If he would haue the Reader to thinke otherwise let him name the Authour that thus disputes and the place where we may finde it till then this must goe for false None of ours would dispute so for it presumes that some Articles of faith be fundamentall and some be not and that is false the whole divine revelation conduceth to eternall life and accordingly it is the foundation thereof and consoquently every Article of faith is fundamentall I answere further This reason as it lyeth doth admit many egregious exceptions but because I am willing to interpret him with the vttermost favour I will forbeare to charge him with them He confines fundamentall trueth vnto the being of the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners pag. 19. 20. To deny fundamentall trueth according to him directly is directly to deny that Iesus Christ came into the world to saue sinners as Pagans Turkes and Iewes doe pag. 22. They deny it by consequent which holding it directly maintaine any one assertion whatsoever whereupon the direct deniall thereof may be necessarily concluded Thus the Galatians holding Circumcision did by consequence overthrow salvation by Christ inasmuch as it was impossible that they should stand together pag. 23 24. According vnto this explication this Argument will be freest from exception if it bee framed in these termes CHAP. 11. Of the same Argument new framed THat society which wants the nature of a true Church does in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners But the present Romish Church does not in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners Therefore the present Romish Church wants not the nature of a true Church His proofes for this Assumption are two the one pag. 126. in these words Offer the fundamentall words to them of the Romish Church and none amongst them will refuse to subscribe vnto them The other is his fifth Argument pag. 59. c To proue the maine question so desirous he is to make shewes of plenty that one shall be divided into two rather then he will be short in number In that he writeth thus In our disputations with them we doe not proue that Christ came to saue sinners but we bring it in proofe against them pag. 62. And this sayes he is A tacite consent of all ours that the Church of Rome does not directly deny the foundation pag. 61. In pag 70. he writeth thus I would gladly see the testimony of but one in estimation for his learning amongst vs that ever affirmed the Church of Rome to deny the foundation of Faith directly The Church of England hath not passed any such sentence vpon her Some of ours touching this matter haue written thus The Church of Rome denyeth Christ Iesus directly not by consequence onely At this our Opponent B. pag. 122. growes very angry and craues pardon for breaking his long patience and doth challenge him for an egregious contradiction in avouching a deniall direct and by consequence and why Because The foundation cannot be overthrowne both by consequence and directly too None can overthrow by consequence vnlesse they hold directly and no man can both hold directly and deny directly And in conclusion he does grauely reprehend that Author because he labour to proue that the Church of Rome is guilty of such deniall both directly and by consequence seeing such proofe makes the whole fall to the ground being nothing worth and least something should be wanting pertaining to the honour of a learned Disputer he giues his word for all this esteeming the least proofe his great disgrace I answere If I proue that the Church of Rome directly denies the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners I doe enough to satisfie this Argument even by the confession of this Opponent for pag. 124. he writes thus If you can proue the Church of Rome directly to deny salvation by Christ alone we binde our selves to grant you the victory and yours be the day If I proue the Church of Rome by consequence also so to deny then that Authour hath made no contradiction by this Opponents owne rule namely because both of them may be true together This Opponent demandeth how or where that proofe shall be had and made pag. 124. I answere I will haue that proofe out of the Councel of Trent and frame it according to art and the rules of answering for that is my office at this time Touching the first I answere to deny and affirme is made by voice and accordingly to deny and affirme may be by the voice of humane reason or divine faith This I take as granted else there can be no difference between the Heathen Philosophers Turks and Christians when they all professe even in so many words That there is a God In the first sense I grant the Assumption that is The Romish Church professeth even in so many words the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ by the voice of humane reason and so farre we are content to goe along with this Opponent but the Proposition is false This we say The profession of
The second distribution is as fond if not worse then the first but I will not mispend mine owne and the Readers time about it It was meet for mee to let this opponent see his weaknesse in Logick because he vaunteth so much of his skill that waies in his Epistle and throughout his whole booke We should now come to the application of this answer to some part of our argument that we might know what he denies and what he grants and why but I am altogether to seeke for that because he brings nothing that leades vs thereunto Wherefore I come to himselfe and say in his owne words pag. 3. _____ Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sâ—zors When he hath done so he shall haue further answer and in the meane time I will set downe and examine what his partner B. saith to our argument now in hand therein I will take onely the summe of his answer and no more to saue mine owne labour and the Readers following the example of the schooles who alwayes run that course He beginneth his answer at p. 84. at these words We professe that we esteem c. And continues the same vnto pag. 88. As his partners answer was so is his intricate perplexed vnapplyed but with this difference he was briefer as liking Logick and not Rethorick this larger as loving Rethorick and not Logick nothing could be made of his Something as I conceiue may be made of this wherefore I will set downe that something with the best warrant of his owne discourse Thus then he seemes to answere The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles purely taught without mixture of error is the genuine marke of the true Church So as where that is there followes the appellation of a true Church and from thence we may argue thus Wheresoever Gods word is purely preached and the Sacraments duly administred there is a true Church And so farre the Proposition is true and agreeable to the intent of our Church and the Assumption is so also that severeth the doctrine of Christ from the present Romish Church but then the conclusion importeth no more but that she is not an orthodox Church which is not in question The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church should cease to be one In this sense the Proposition is false for such doctrine belongs vnto the perfection and glory of the Church and she may be without them as the children of Israel were many dayes without a Sacrifice and an Ephod Hosea 3.4 yet still they were Gods Church It may fall out that they may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution In this sense the PropositioÌ„ is not according to the intent of our Church which meant not so strictly to tye Gods Church to these signes as if all were excluded from the Church which doe not rightly participate of the word and Sacraments in the Iudgement of Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon 19. art propo 8. Lastly in this sense the Assumption is false that makes a reall totall division between the present Romish Church all revealed truth we say she hath not abolished all truth but retaineth some in their disputations and as we thinke more in their Sermons Thus I hope I haue exactly expressed his intent if I haue missed in any thing the fault is his not mine he may thanke me for my paines because I haue done for him what he could not at least what he hath not done for himselfe that I may vse his partners words pag. 5. Now we will take it into severall peeces and examine them in severall chapters following CHAP. 4. Prooving this sentence The present Romish faith is erronius THe examination of his last answer to our Assumption wherin he does attribute some purity of Christs doctrine vnto the Church of Rome is sufficient to determine the worth of our argument now in hand and the whole question it selfe for if the Romish Church be all errour and Antichristian that is if her faith be erronious then without doubt she is none of Gods Church The Church of England in her Assumption now in question meant to say so as I haue already said cap. 2. n. 1. and will now prooue by Gods assistance If the Romish Church retaine some of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour then 1. Christs doctrine cannot be denied her in termes without limitation 2. She is not changed into a new guise nor hath forsaken the commandements of God to set vp her owne constitutions 3. She is not without the holy Ghost But according to our Church 1. Christs doctrine is denied her in terms without limitation for thus lye the words of her Assumption The present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets retaining the sound and pure doctrine of Christ Iesu neither doe they order the Sacraments in such sort as he did first institute and ordaine them 2. She is changed into a new guise by chopping and changing by adding and plucking away They haue forsaken the commandements of God to set vp their owne constitutions 3. They are without the Spirit of God Therefore according to our Church in her Assumption the present Romish Church does not retaine some part of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour but she is all errour and her faith erronious Many learned amongst vs haue so vnderstood our Church and I will name some in stead of all Bishop Iewell in the defence of his Apology pag. 4. cap. 11. divis 1. chargeth her in absolute termes that she had departed from Gods ward and more plainly pag. 5. cap. 13. divis He saith the same thing in these words Thâ—se men haue brâ—ken in pecces all the popes and conduits they haue stopped all the springs and choaked vp the fountaine of living water with dirt and myre He repeates the same thing in other termes cap. 15. divis 2. thus In the Romish Church we cannot home the word of God sinetrely taught nor the Sacraments rightly administred nor the name of God duely called vpon and wherein was nothing able to stay any wise man or one that hath consideration of his own safety I will conclude with his words in the same Apologie part 6. cap. 22. divis 2. where he saith that the present Church of Rome hath vtterly forsaken the Catholike faith Doct. Reynolds in his 5. Conclusions Preface at the 6. doth charge the present Romish Church to be distempered not with a sicknesse that hindreth the functions of life but with such a one as for it selfe makes her past hope of recouery and namely she serues not God with a holy worship nor beleeved God with a holy faith as he hath commanded
should cease to be one In these words this sentence is implied The faith of the Church may be right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles And he does expressely avouch the same in divers passages of his booke viz. The present Church of Rome is corrupted and deformed yet hath the true essence of a Church pag. 30. The Church of Rome hath a religion more after Homer then after the Scriptures and yet holdeth fundamentall truth pag. 4. In the Popes Arithmetick Articles of faith are added pag. 39. Such affirmatiues of ours as concerne the foundation of Faith are professed by the Church of Rome pag 41. And nothing is more frequent with him then words to this effect The Church of Rome that is all those which lying in that religion make vp one body or societie is not Babylon in the Revelation but that Babylon is a faction in that Church pag. 100. The Papacy is not the Church but the disease of the Church The Papacy is in the Church as an accident in the subiect we must distinguish betwixt the Church and the Papacy pag. 28 29. Wee haue learned to distinguish betwixt the Church and the great Whore in the Church we haue communion with the Church wee seperate from Babylon pag. 101. This we deny and will maintaine the contradictory to wit The faith of the Church is not right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles But If some Articles of Faith be false and erronious then the Faith of the Church it false and erronious I will not now giue reason of this denyall but deferr the same till we come to the 7. Chap. where it shall be disputed so much as is requisite He brings proofe for his opinion in the words which immediately follow in the foresaid Cap. 3. n. 8. I will first dispose them according to Art and then frame my answer as shall be needfull Thus then he disputes If the Faith of the Church cannot be true and erronious together then where error in faith is there cannot be a true Church But where error in faith is there may bee a true Church for first our Church thinks so Article 19. according to Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon the place Propo. 8. 2 The children of Israell did abide many dayes without a Sacrifice and Ephod c. Hosea 3.4 and without Circumcision the space of 40. yeares Iosh 5.6 yet then were they the Church of God 3 The word and Sacraments may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution I answer the consequence of the Proposition we grant as very necessary But the Assumption is false Wee say that errour in faith and the Church are incompatible and it is the Argument of our Church already alledged out of the Homily To all his proofes ioyntly I answere They are farr to weake to vphold this waighty matter if this assumption be not true then his whole cause falles to the ground Himselfe confesseth as wee haue heard that the present Romish Church is guiltie of heresy and therefore can be no true Church vnlesse error in faith may be in the Church For herefie at least comprehends error in faith Wherefore it stood him vpon to gather his witts and vnite his forces together to strengthen and mainteyne this businesse we looked for pregnant proofe out of Gods word for doubtlesse if this were true we should find a manifest record for it because God hath not left matters of this importance for man to grope and guesse at So loving and wise was the Lord when he appoynted the meanes of mans salvation But loe no such thing is tendred and therefore wee may conclude no such thing is in being and consequently wee may set downe our rest and say doubtlesse the faith of the true Church cannot be stained with error yet that the misery of this cause may the better appeare I will vncover the skirts of all his proofes in perticular and single out the one from the other The authority of our Church prevaileth much with me so as that alone would silence my tongue and suspend my iudgement but it will doe little good to this opponent B. for he that slighteth yea reiecteth nay disputeth against her doctrine in things supreame must not craue her ayde in things belonging to the mean and thus stands it with this opponent who mainteynes the cheife question in this businesse against her and at this instant laboureth all he can to refell the Proposition of her argument But how may it appeare that our Church makes for him He brings nothing but the authority of Mr. Rogers and that is no greater then his owne and consequently thus he sayes our Church thought so because I say she did thinke so but what if our Church and this opponent sayes shee thought not so then I hope the matter thus farr will be at an end From this Opponent I argue thus He that saith all Gods revealed truth vniuersally essentially and reciprically belongs to the Church frees the faith of the Church from error But this opponent doth so for thus he writes pag 13. The true Church is a company of men professing Gods revealed truth now in this sentence he makes all Gods revealed truth to belong to the Church vniuersally essentially and reciprically because 1. The words themselues in the common vse of men doe lye so 2. According to Aristotle Poster lib. 1. cap 44 33. lib. 2. cap. 3. Top. lib. 6. cap 1. Thom. 2. dist 27. q. 1. art 2. ad 9m. Aliaco quest de resumpt lit q Richardus de Trin. lib. 4. cap. 21. fol. 108. Every exact or perfite definition does so but this Authors sentence alledged is an exact definition pag. 13. Therefore this opponent frees the faith of the Church from error and consequently according to him our Church doth so too for shee hath defined the Church art 19. iust as he hath done in the sentence we alledged If art 19. subiecteth the faith of the Church vnto error then wee must reade it thus The visible Church is a Congregation in which some part of the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments in some things be only administred But art 19. must not be so read least the words of the Article themselues be perverted and some man say the avoiding of diversities of opinions and establishing of consent touching true religion was not thereby intended contrary vnto the protestation of our Church in the title to all the Articles in generall Therefore Art 19. subiecteth not the faith of the Church vnto errour His second proofe lyeth thus The Israelites wanted Sacrifice and Circumcision Therefore the faith of the Church is subiect to errour I answere this geere hangs not together so well as Harp and Harrow for they sound alike in something because both of them begin with a letter but here is nothing like The lewes Church was an Infant and not established
only in some Articles yet the whole stand infected therewith because the foundation of faith which is the soule thereof runs through the whole as one continued streame without intermission distinction or limitation by reason whereof if some Articles onely be charged with errour the foundation of faith cannot be free if that be infected the whole faith is subiect thereunto because every Article or Proposition becomes an Article of faith by the force and efficacy of that foundation I conceiue by this time that the Proposition of this Argument is sufficiently prooved and explained so as every man will beleeue and vnderstand it and accordingly I may content my selfe and saue all further labour yet because the Reader shall haue full and ample satisfaction I will proceed somewhat further All ours doe grant the Assumption namely that some Articles of the Romish faith be erronious and amongst the rest both our Opponents are lavish enough in words of that kinde calling that Church so farre as their faith is erronious Babell and hereticall so as in rigour I am not bound to answere further yet because our Opponent B. hath done it samely and falsely pag. 40.90.124 c. to the shame of his owne reading and the sorrow and shame of our whole Nation if I may speake in his partners language pag. 22. To mend the matter and for the Readers sake I will proceed and shew that some Articles of their faith be erronious by assigning the particulars which are so faulty that it may be knowne we doe them no wrong when we charge them in that manner besides this every lover of truth may the better be directed to sever truth from falshood for that purpose I frame this Argument All the succeeding Articles are erronious viz. 1 The saving truth taught by Christ and his Apostles is conteined also in vnwritten Traditions Councell Trent Sess 4. 2 Originall sinne is an vneleannesse within mans soule and is a sin which is the death of the soule Sess 5. Decret 2. 3. 3 Grace doth take away whatsoever hath the true and proper nature of sinne Sess 5. Decret 5. 4 Concupiscence in the regenerate is not truly and properly sinne Sess 5. Decret 5. 5 Hee that receiveth the inspiration of grace can actually reiect the same and actually dissent therefrom if he will Sess 6. Cap. 5. Can. 4. 6 The onely formall cause of Iustification is Iustice inherent Sess 6. Cap. 7. 7 Sinne is mortall and veniall Cap. 11. 14. 8 The iust in some actions doe not sinne venially Cap. 11. 9 By every mortall sin a man falleth away from the grace of Iustification which he had receiued cap. 14.15 10 Gods Commandements are not impossible to bee kept by him that is iustified Sess 6. Cap. 11. 11 The grace of iustification is bestowed vpon them also which are not preaestinate Sess 6. Can 17. 12 The whole temporall punishment is not alwayes remitted together with the fault Sess 6. Cap. 14. and Can. 30 Sess 14. Cap. 8. Can. 12. 13 The works which be done in God doe for the state of this life fully satisfie the Law Sess 6. Cap. 16. 14 The iust in some actions sinne not at all and in no action doe they deserue eternall punishment Sess 6. Cap. 11. 15 The good works of the iust are their merits Sess 6. Cap. 16. Can. 32. 16 The Iustified by their good works do truely merit the obtayning of eternall life it selfe Sess 6. Can. 32. 17 It is no sinne to worke in the intuition of the reward Sess 6. Cap. 11. Can. 31. 18 The Images of Christ the Virgine Mary and other Saints 1. Are to be had and kept cheifely in Churches 2. Due honour and worship is to be giuen vnto them 3. Are of Sacred vse and yeeld much fruit Sess 25 Decret de invocat 19 The honour which we yeeld vnto Images is referred vnto the thing which they represent whose likenes they beare Sess 25. 20 Worship and honour is due to be giuen to the bodyes of Saints departed 21 The Monuments and memories of the Saints departed are to be frequented and honoured Sess 25. 22 Feast dayes are to be kept in honour and celebration of the Saints and for visiting their Reliques 23 By visiting the Reliques of Saints we obtayne their help Sess 25. 24 Prayers are to be made for the faithfull departed 25 The Saints that raigne with Christ and enioy eternall felicity in heaven 1 are to be called vpon 2 they pray for vs even singular men 3 It is profitable for vs to fly to their prayers help and furtherance for benifites to be receiued from God Sess 25. 26 There is a Purgatorie Sess 25. 27 Some temporall punishment remayneth to be satisfied for in purgatory before the way to heauen can bee opened Sess 6. Can. 30 28 The power of granting Indulgences was committed by Christ to the Church and the vse of them is helpfull to Christian people Sess 25. Decret de Indul. 29 The whole choise of meates serueth vnto the mortification of the flesh 30 The deuout celebration of feast dayes causeth the increase of piety Sess 25. Decret de delectu 31 The Sacrifice of the Mass prayers almes giuing are suffrages of the faithfull that are aliue for other faithfull that are dead Sess 25. Decret de Purga 32 The Sacraments of the new Testament are neither more nor fewer then seven to wit 1 Baptisme 2 Confirmation 3 The Lords Supper 4 Pennance 5 Extreame Vnction 6 Ordination 7 Matrimony And every one of these is truely and properly a Sacrament Sess 7 Can. 1. 33 The Sacraments of the New Testament contayne the things they signifi and beslow it vpon them which hindreth not Can 6. And vpon all as much as is requyred on Gods part Ca 7. And that by the worke wrought Can 8. Baptisme Confirmation and Ordination imprint in the soule a character that cannot be blotted out Can 9 34 After the Consecration of the bread and wine in the Lords Supper the Lord Iesus Christ true God and Man is contained truely really and substantially vnder the shewes of those sensible things Sess 13. de Sacra Eucha Cap 1. Can 1. 35 By the consecration of the bread and wine a conversion is made of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of Christs body and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood so as in that Sacrament the substance of bread and wine remaynes not together with the body and blood of Christ Which conversion is properly called transubstantiation Cap 4. Can 2. 36 In the Masse a true and proper Sacrifice is offered vnto God Propitiatory and profitable vnto others also besids such as receiue it and it ought to bee offred for the quick and dead for satisfaction of the punishment of sinnes and other necessities Sess 22. Can. 3. 37 The holy Eucharist is to be reserved in the Chancell and carried honorably to the sicke Sess 13. Cap. 6. To be
worshipped with a peculiar festiuall celebritie and divine worship yea externall also solemnly and publickly to be caryed about that it may be worshipped by the people Can. 6. 38 Water is to be mingled with wine in the Chalice that is to be offred Sess 22. Cap. 7. 39 No man that knowes himselfe to be guiltie of mortall sinne how contrite soever he seemes to himselfe to be may come to the holy Encharist without Sacramentall Confession going before Sess 13. Cap. 7. Can. 11. that is vnill he haue confessed all and every one of his mortall sinnes and also those circumstances which change the kinde of the sinne Sess 14. Cap. 5. and that to a Priestan secret Can. 6.7 40 Our Saviour Christ when hee sayd doe this in remembrance of me did institute his Apostles Priests and ordained that themselues and other Priests should offer his body and blood Sess 22 Can. 2. 41 No man vnlesse he doth Consecrate is bound by Gods Law to receiue vnder both kinds Sess 21. Cap. 1 but all such must receiue vnder one kinde only Cap. 5. 42 Wee may make satisfaction to God through Iesus Christ by temporall afflictions layd on vs by God and borne patiently by vs. Sess 14. Cap. 9. and Can. 15. 43 By the Sacrament of Pennance the grace of Instification which was lost is recovered Sess 6. Cap. 14. 44 Matrymony contracted not consummated is dissolued by the solemne profession of Religion by either partie Sess 24. Can. 6. 45 Power was given to the Apostles and their lawfull successors to remit and retaine sinnes for the reconciling of such of the faithfull as fall after Baptisme Sess 14. de sacra peniten Cap. 1. But these are Articles of the Romish faith Therefore some Articles of the Romish faith be erronious None of ours will deny either part of this Argument vnlesse he be very ill advised If any except against any branch of the Proposition let him assigne the particular and he shall see by our answeres and arguments that it agrees not with Gods word and therefore it is erronious If it be answered some of theirs doe not agree to the Councell in the particulars assigned and therefore their faith is not recorded therein and so our Opponent seemes to argue pag. 108. and 130. I reply the Antecedent is false no man can name a member of their Church that bids defiance to the authority of that Councell nor can for such a party is accursed by the Councell and thereby made an heretick and none of theirs as we finde in the decree thereof touching the receiving and observing of the decrees of that Councell Sess 25. and the acclamation of the Fathers at the end of that Councell whereupon we may rest assured that some Articles of their faith be erronious and which they be in particular Having hitherto discussed the first principall question propounded cap. 1. num 1. I now descend to the second wherein I may be the more briefe because I haue insisted so long vpon the first CHAP. 8. Prooveth this sentence No Papist as a Papist can be saved THis position speakes not of salvation actually and in the event but of the meanes and possibility of attaining salvation by their faith By Papist is meant such a man as does communicate in the Romish faith So as in plaine English this sentence ought to be pronounced thus The Romish faith disposeth or leadeth not vnto salvation It belongs not to vs to iudge of the event heaven and hell are in the hands of God and to send men thither it is a right so peculiar to God that he will not account with vs for it His sacred Revelation shewes vs the way to obtaine the one and avoid the other wherefore about this may we contend and must about that we doe not striue nor may lest we seeke to be wise beyond sobriety against the Apostles rule Rom. 12.3 Thus haue we propounded the point and vnfoulded the sense It remaineth that in the next place wee see what our adversaries say to it The Opponent B. pag. 6. writeth thereof in this manner The state of the Church of Rome both now and many yeares past is and hath beene such that plagues were due vnto them even from the greatest to the least even to all without exception as well to authours as receivers from the Idiot and Handicrafts man to the Pope and the Colledge of Cardinalls because their religion in many parts of it hath beene hereticall and erronious for opinion and practise I answere so farre as these words doe guide vs we must say that this Opponent opposeth not vs in this point for if their religion made them guilty of and lyable vnto punishment then doubtlesse their faith leads not to eternall life for it is impossible it should tend to two ends of adverse nature so as now we will take him for a friend not as an enemy for we think him so honest that his heart and hand doe agree In the next page hee layeth out the way for their escape from the said danger of punishment and assigneth Repentance to bee the meanes namely repentance either actuall or generall By the first he would haue all such to avoid that danger and be saved which indeed haue builded themselues vpon the rock which is the foundation of the Church though through ignorance they hold the same but weakly frame many base vnsutable things therupon but he thinks that actuall repentance is necessary for all knowne faults I answere he professeth in his margin that he borrowed this discourse from Mr. Hooker of purpose as I conceiue for his further grace but it availes him little If he will be our debtor we will grant him all his writing who will not say that by repentance the greatest sinner may avoid hell and goe to heaven seeing that God hath promised to put all our sinnes out of his remembrance whensoever we repent Ezek. 18. Yet notwithstanding we need not feare his strength in this cause for two reasons 1. This is nothing to the present businesse for we enquire after the end vnto which the Romish faith doth tend and he sheweth the fruit profit or end of repentance how farre then repentance or turning away from the Popish faith is different or distant from the Popish faith so farre is hee wide from the cause in hand 2. This discourse makes strongly for our assertion thus If a man must repent of the Popish religion that is he must turne himselfe from it before he can avoid hell and obtaine heaven then doubtlesse the Romish faith leads not to heaven for the way thither stands not in need of repentance Now let who else will grace his answere seeing the more glory it hath the more glorious is our cause which is so strongly confirmed by it His partner Opponent C. rambleth about this matter and scattereth in divers places some words tending to the same purpose but I will not trouble my selfe and the Reader with them
the Scriptures and of Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of humane faith though it be in words never so plaine and expresse yet it giues not being to the Church for the Church subsisteth in it selfe and differeth from all other societies by supernaturall not by naturall or humane endowments and this I take as granted In the second sense the Proposition is true namely The profession even in so many words of these fundamentall truthes There be Scriptures Christ came to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith is the very soule of the Church and so essentiall therto that without it there can be no Christian Church and where that is the Church is also because it is so operatiue wheresoever it doth encline that all other things requisite to a Christian Church does follow according as this Opponent writeth pag. 21.29.34 CHAP. 12. The Romish Church directly denies salvation by Christ BVt in this sense the Assumption is false the present Romish Church does in words and professedly deny the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners according vnto the voice of divine faith and I proue it thus They that doe not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners doe professedly deny his comming to saue sinners for in this case a not confession is a professed negation and so accounted by our Saviour who saith he that is not with me is against me he that gathereth not scattereth Matth. 12.30 And good reason hee should so esteeme it for such a not confession is a voluntary omission of our duty This is the will of my heavenly Father that yee beleeue on him whom hee hath sent Ioh. 6.29 Even all men whatsoever because the earth is his inheritance and the vttermost ends thereof is his possession Psal 2.8 Wee see the truth hereof in the omission of any duty Hee that withheld his tythes is held professedly to deny the paying of tythes Mal. 3.8 He that honoureth not his parents is reckoned professedly to dishonour his Parents Matth. 15.6 This Proposition then being very evident I thus assume But the Romish Church doth not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith because the faith of that Church by meanes of the foundation thereof is humane and not divine as hath beene manifestly proved cap. 4. num 7. c. He thinks to shrowd himselfe vnder the authority of our Church which hee vrgeth negatiuely thus Our Church does charge her to erre in matter of faith Art 19 but not with direct deniall of salvation by Christ Therefore the Romish Church is not so to bee charged I answer 1. he takes the authority of our Church to be of moment I demand then why he disputes against her all this while yea against her doctrine subscribed by himselfe 2. The consequence is nought our Churches silence argues not the Romish Church to be innocent for this question of denying or not denying was not in being when her faith was published This was done Anno 1562. that began Anno 1588. or neere thereupon for any thing I can yet learne or this Opponent proue 3. The Antecedent is false for two reasons 1. Errours in matters of faith may be a direct deniall of salvation by Christ for he that so denies errs in matter of faith and we must thinke our Church meant so because her words will beare it and this Opponent cannot shew the contrary 2. Our Church in the second Homily for Whitsontide often times already alledged does deny her to be built vpon Christ the corner stone in that foundation and that importeth a direct deniall of salvation by Christ because he that sits besides that foundation shall goe without salvation This proofe and defence being considered we may safely rest in this conclusion The Romish Church according to the voice of divine faith professedly denies Christs comming to saue sinners and accordingly we haue the victory and ours is the day according to this Opponents offer and our acceptation num 4. chap. 11. I might proceed to proue their professed deniall of the Scriptures vpon the same ground but I forbeare to doe it because the Reader may see this Argument serues for both that and this by changing the termes This Opponent seemeth to qualifie his former recited promise and calleth vs as he thinkes to a new reckoning pag. 22 23. wherein hee writeth thus They overthrow the foundation directly to whom Christ is an execration And to tread vnder foot the sonne of God to count the blood of the covenant wherewith all wee are sanctified an vnholy thing and to doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 is directly to deny the foundation And then he assumes in these words Of which crime whosoever is able let him indict the Church of Rome producing sufficient evidence thereof and whosoever shall open his mouth to plead for them let him be guilty of all the dishonour that ever hath beene done to the Sonne of God and lyable to the Apostles curse 1 Cor. 16.22 I answere this is his last refuge if therefore he failes in this he is gone for ever In true forme he reasoneth thus They that directly deny salvation by Christ are guilty as aforesaid But the Romish Church are not so guilty Therefore the Romish Church denies not directly salvation by Christ I may except against the Assumption with better reason then he can argue for it wherefore this I say The Romish Church is so guilty for They that know and belieue Christs comming to saue sinners onely by naturall reason and humane faith They tread him vnder foote account his blood vnholy and doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 because the naturall man perceiveth or receiveth not the things of God as they are the things of God forasmuch as they are spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2.14 The very wisedome of the flesh is enmitie vnto God Rom. 8.7 But the Romish Church does know and beleiue Christs comming to saue sinners only by naturall reason and humaine faith for all their knowledge and beleiving ariseth vpon the teaching of the Pastors of their Church which is meerly humaine because they haue no Commission for such teaching as appeareth Cap. 4. num 7. c. If any man doe iudge that the place alledged Heb. 10.29 mean no more but thus then I rest here as in a sufficient answer to this argument and claim this Opponents finall promise last mentioned and so we are at an end for this cause the day is ours we must carry the victory and the signes thereof leading these Opponents in tryumph If the Apostle be vnderstood to speake of more then this then I deny the Proposition as wanting the very shew of truth I say some men directly deny salvation by Christ who are not guiltie as aforesaid and I haue two reasons for it the first is this Iewes and Pagans are not guilty as aforesaid for the parties so guilty haue received the knowledge of the truth
of Ordination that is the imposing of hands by one that hath Diocesan Authority which we enioy and doe exercise came from them so farre for this time we yeeld that is that such Ministers of ours as first led the way vnto our seperation from them were ordeined or admitted into the worke of the Ministery by such authority of theirs But this proues not that our Ordination and theirs is the same for ours ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith so is not theirs Our Ordination as it ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith is not received from them because amongst them that divine faith is wholly wanting If then any desire to know how they and we doe agree in the outward ceremony and disagree in the in the inward and Spirituall life of Ordinaâ—ion or the power of Iurisdiction left by Christ vnto his Church I answere the providence of God hath made that difference They are given vp to beleeue lyes wee are preserved in the truth and faith once delivered to the Saints The second proofe of his Assumption is contained in these words Wee doe not ordeine them anew which haue taken Orders from that Sea when they become converts I answere 1. This proofe hath the same fault with the former Orders cannot argue the Ministeriall function Ephes 4.8 because that comprehends more then then this yea this seemes to be but the entrance into the function and not the essence thereof 2. I answere The inference is also naught Their ordination may not be repeated when they turne to vs yet ours and theirs may be essentially different as an empty vessell may not be reiected and yet differs from that which is full and indeed soe stands the case betweene their ordination and ours They haue the outward ceremony taken vp by tradition from the precedent and pure ages of the Church wee haue that and the substance also because divine faith goes with ours but is wanting to theirs His third proofe conteineth these words They receiue commission to teach the Scripture not the Popes Legends I answer This branch came out of his owne braine He never found it in any records of their faith Moreover the records of their faith are against him as I haue partly alledged Num. 3. and may further appeare by the 4. Sess of the Councell of Trent formerly reported wherein the iudgment of the true sence of the Scriptures is attributed to the Church that is as themselues expound it vnto the Pope If then their preists must each the Scriptures in the Popes sense then the Scriptures are no better then the Popes Legends and consequently when they teach the Scriptures they teach the Popes Legends To conclude if Commission to teach the Popes Legends be a Ministery differing from the Ministery Ephes 4.8 as this Opponent implyes then the Popish Priesthood is not that Ministery Ephes 4.8 because it teaches the Popes Legends And thus in stead of confirming he overthrowes his Assumption CHAP. 17. The conclusion of the whole claiming our Opponents promise NOw we haue fully finished the body of the disputation we are to come vnto both our Opponents conclusions lest something be left vntouched to the hurt of the cause and offence to the Reader Our elder Opponent concludeth his booke pag. 115. with these words I desire to stand but so right as I am in all honest Iudgements I beseech all Readers to Iudge wisely and vprightly of what I haue written And in his second Epistle he promiseth after this sort If you can soundly and substantially Convince mee of vntruth I professe before God and the world that I will yeeld vnto you without any more adoe being already willing to be overcome of the trueth in this case The younger Opponent pag. 132. ioynes with his partner in the same promise If I haue erred I shall thank those that will bring mee into the way againe If I haue favoured any vnsound opinion yea or haue spoken suspitiously let me suffer as an Heretick but let no man condemne me till he hath first shewed me better and found me obstinate I answere the whole summe of their promise makes vp this conditionall Proposition If we haue erred we will revoke that errour Whereunto I will adde this Assumption But you haue erred And accordingly every must make this conclusion Therefore you must revoke your errour The consequence of the proposition may not be questioned because then selues haue made it and the one hath professed before God to performe it The other craueth the punnishment due to an heritick if he breakes it Wherefore so farr our ground worke is certaine If they doubt of the assumption they haue offred faire and I accept it They are content to stand to the iudgement of of such readers as be wise honest and do feare God I desire noe better arbitratours They require to be shewed better by sound and substantiall conviction and I say it is the best issue If therefore such Readers finde such conviction these Opponents must grant the assumption and execute the conclusion for every honest man performes his promise when he hath received the condition FINIS