proceedeth out of his owne partiality Now this disparity M. Doctour you may well apply in my conceipt to the afore alleadged consessions and testimonies of your owne Protestants But if I haue not here answeared directly I submit my selfe to both your censures and will leaue it to my L. Cardinall to giue fuller satisfaction and answere thereto CARD BELLARM. Learned Rabby Your answere is most sufficient and warrantable and indeed a solid iudgment would easily dispell this smoake of wit and if you had not preuented me I should but haue giuen the same answere though perhaps not haue instanced it in your example of the Iewish Law But enough of this argument by which we are instructed that the present Fayth of Rome was neuer changed since the Apostles daies for it is S. Augustines rule That that Fayth which hath bin beleiued by the whole visible Church of God and whereof no first beginning can be knowne since the Apostles is presumed to haue bin first taught by Christ and his Apostles But M. Doctour if it please you we will insist in another Medium from whence we will deduce our former affertion to wit that during the first six huudred yeares after Christ and indeed during all the tyme since the Apostles the Church of Rome neuer made any change or alteration in any one materiall poynt at all And therefore I do here aske your iudgment whether there must be at all tymes in Christs Church Pastours and Doctours which must teach the People and be ready to withstand all innouations and false doctrines at theire first appearance D. WHITTAKERS Yes we all do teach that there must euer be and without interruption true Pastours in the church who shall be ready to impugne all emergent and late arrising Errours Heresyes So true it is that the church is the sâ—and from whence we strike an Hereticke And this we prooue from the predictioÌ„ of the Apostle who foretelleth vs that Pastours Doctours are to be in the Church to the consummation of Saynts till we all meete in the vnity of Fayth that is as our owne Doctour Fulke interpreteth for euer Which Doctours as our sayde D. Fulke further auerreth shall alwayes resist all false Opinions with open reprehension Which poynt is so true and euident as that I haue already taught in my bookes that the preaching of the worde of God within which is necessarely included the impugning of all false doctrines first their arrising is among the Essetiall Notes of the Church As also that the preaching of the Word doth constitute a Church the want of it doth subuerte it From whence it necessarely followeth that these Doctours and Preachers are not to be silent at the rising of any false Opinion but are obliged with all sedulity and diligence what soeuer openly to resist and beate downe all innouations new arrising doctrines in Fayth and Religion And these Doctours Pastours thus defending the Church of Christ by impugning of false doctrines are those Watchmen and Sentinels of whom Esay so loÌ„g since prophesied Vpon thy Walles ô Hierusalem I haue appoynted watchmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not hould their peace And indeed to speake sincerely the Nature of the Church requireth no lesse for how can it continue the true Church if her Pasâ—outs do suffer false erroneous doctrine to inuade her children without any coÌ„troule or resistance And are not such negligent Pastouâ—s to be reputed as Paralyticke and dead Members of the Church since they performe not that office and function for which they were ordayned CARD BELLARM. Your Iudgment is to be emdraced herein But now M. Doctour I take your sword out of your owne hand and do turne the poynt of it into your owne breast For whereas their are many weighty doctrines as touching the Premacy of Peter the number of the Sacraments and their efficacy Free-will Merit of workes Praying for the dead Praying to Saincts Worshipping of Images Vnmaried liues of Priests the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse and to omit diuers others the adoration of Christin the Sacrament which are beleiued by the present Church of Rome and which as you Protestants do teach were introduced into the Church as Nouelties and Innouations since the Faith of Christ was first planted in the Church of Rome by the Apostles Now here M. Doctour I prouoke you and all the Protestants liuing according to your owne former doctrine of Pastours euer resisting new and false doctrines to name any one Pastour Doctour or Father of the Church who euer resisted any of the former Catholicke doctrines as new doctrines or did once charge the Church of Rome with chang and innouation in any one poynt from their former receaued Fayth by the Apostles Reade ouer all the ancient Fathers and Doctours of the Primatiue Church and later times Peruse the first approoued Generall Councells Go ouer all the ancient Catalogues of Condemned Heresies and euen study all Ecclesiasticall Historyes of those former times and finde in all these but only any one of the former Catholicke and now Romane doctrines or any other poynt coÌ„trouerted at this day betweene you and vs to be condemned for a Nouelty and as dissenting from the generall receaued Fayth of those tymes and I promise you I will cast off my Cardinalls Hat and turne Protestant Can any reasonable Man then thinke that whereas you teach the Papists Religion came in by degrees and at seuerall tymes that all the Pastours and Fathers of those seuerall tymes were a sleepe when the sayd doctrines were first braoched or that they obseruing their entrance yet not any of them would vouchsafe to make resistance or at least some mention of any such innouation in doctrine doth not this mainly crosse the fore-alleadged Prophesy of the Apostle Or can this stand with any possibility especially if we consider the nature of our former Catholicke doctrines auerred by you to be introduced as Nouelisms since they are as aboue is intimated many in number diuers of them of the greatest consequence that may be as the vertue of the Sacraments the Manner of our Iustification to wit whether by workes or by Fayth only others of them most repugnant to mans sence and common reason as the Reall Presence Some aduerse to Mans naturall Propension as the doctrine of Virginity Pouerty and Obedience most of them consisting not only in an internall beleife but euen in an externall action and operation And therfore the first OrigeÌ„ and entrance of theÌ„ are therby become most discernable Such are our doctrines of Praying to Saints Praying for the deade Pilgrimages Single life in the Cleargy to omitt diuers others all Monachisme And lastly some supposing theire doctrine to be false subiect to externall Idolatry as the worshiping of Christ with supreame honour in the Eucharist Therfore if any of our graue and learned Aduersaries should affirme for there are some curious witts
vs at what times some sensible degrees and increase of this supposed change did happen and the manifestatioÌ„ of these degrees is to be made by naming the time and person when by whoÌ„ such and such a particular poynt or article of our present Roman Religion was first sensibly introduced into the Church of Rome The which not any Protestant notwithstanding all his exquisite and precise search of Ecclesiasticall Histories hath bin able yet to perform And thus farre M. Doctour of these your similitudes which you see in a true ballancing of them do become rather hurtfull then beneficiall to your Cause and therfore they had ben better forborne by you then vrged D. WHITAKERS Indeede I grant that there are no Histories or Records at this day out of which we can certainly collect the change of Religion in the Roman Church But no doubt such Records there were though now wholy extinguished made away by the vigilancy and carefulnes of former Pâ—pes who to preserue the honour of their Church as free and exeÌ„pt from all change and innouation did deliberately purposely cause all Coppies of such writings and narrations to be for euer suppressed and buried in obliuion eyther by fire or otherwise CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour this is a meare groundles Phantasie If you haue any graue testimonies warranting a generall suppression of all such records then all of them were not extinguished since the testimonies which affirme so much are yet extant If you produce no authority witnessing so much then why should we beleiue your bare and naked affirmation herein But to examine more punctually this poore refuge And first wheras you teach that this change of Faith in the Roman Church came in by degrees now by innouating one point of the ancient true Fayth now another supposing for the time this to be true how can it be conceiued that all the Coppies of such particular changes in Faith already dispersed throughout all Christendome in the handes of infinite Protestants as you maÌ„taine though vntruly that in those times they were could be gathered suppressed without any remembrance thereof to all posterity It is most absurd but to furmise such an impossibility Furthermore do we not see that the liues of such Popes which can be lesse warranted were recorded in histories yet extant to this very houre as else where is intimated Neither the narrations of them either were or could euer be suppressed How then can we be persuaded that the memory of this supposed great chang could by any such meanes be cancelled in a perpetuall forgetfulnes Since certaine it is that the Popes if possible they could would haue caused all narrations touching the personall faults of their Predecessours to haue beene vtterly extinguished considering that such their lesse iustifiable liues might be reputed by many to be no smale blemisne to the Church of Rome Such an improbability this your euasion M. Doctour inuolues in its selfe D. WHITAKERS My Lord It seemes you are very dexterous in warding all our instances and other arguments aboue produced to prooue the former presumed change But imagine for the time that we cannot alleadge out of any now extant authorized history examples of any knowne innouation imagine also that we cannot shew at what particular time and season the parcels of these changes did happen imagine lastly that there were neuer any records testimonies or writings in which these changes were registred yet how are you able to put by the sharp-poynted weapon of Scripture wherwith your religion is mortally foyled We know that the Fayth of the present Roman Religion is repugnant to the holy Scriptures to which only wee appeale and whose â—autarceia and all sufficiency is defended by vs Protestants the sacred Scripture being to vs more then decaplês apologia a tenfould shield of our fayth This I say we know and consequently we further know that the fayth of the Romish Church is not the same which was planted in Rome by the Apostles Here is our fortresse here is our strength and this place to you Romanists is maccessible Here we haue Tò retòn the Word epi tèn dianeian tóùr etóù to the true meaning of the Word all Controuersies are to be referred And with this Word we are able to inflict Cairian pâ—etèn deadly to wound your popish Religion And we are so truely impatrônized of the holy Scripture as that wee dare pronounce with the Apostle If an Angell reach any other Ghosple vnto you then that which wee haue preached let him be Anathema For to vs it is sufficient by comparing the Popish Opinious with the Scripture to discouer the disparity of Fayth betweene them and vs and as for Historiographers Wee giue them liberty to write what they will seeing this aplóùs lógos tes ' aletheias this simple Word of truth is able to refute any thing brought to the contrary And therfâ—re my Lord Cardinall I must say to you here with Archidamus ' èt è◠dynamei próstheis ' e tóù phronématos ' ypheis either maÌ„taine your Religion with the force of Scripture or else wisely cease from the further defence thereof CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to ballance this your last argument you must pardon me if I smile to my selle to obserue how affectedly and ambitiously you haue rioted in your Greeke throughout this whole discourse and especially in this your last close besprinkling diuers passages thereof as it were with some Greeke word or other Which in my iudgment beare with me if I misconster your meaning is but to beare your ignorant followers in hand what jolly men and great Clarkes you Protestants are And according hereto we commonly find the bookes writen either by English French or German Protestants euen to swell with Greeke phrases or sentences But who seeth not how forced this is it being a point of ostentation and vanity thus to braue it forth in a froath of strange wordes We all know the tongues are but the porters of learning in which the Catholicks though with more cession modesty are most skilfull and that he who is a learned man indeede is euer presumed afore hand to be expert in them as being meanes conducing to the perfection of learning Thus the want of Greeke is a great defect the enioying of it but a necessary furniture of a scholar Therefore who vanteth hereof or is become fond of a few greeke words being commonly ignorant of the riches contayned in that tongue as many Protestants are is like to that man who taketh delight in a litle Mother of Pearle he reioiceth he hauing no interest to the Pearle within contayned I speake not this but that it is lawfull sometime to make vse of Greeke phrases and sentences but this chiefly when the QuestioÌ„ is touching translations out of that tongue and that we are to recurre to the Greeke being the originall for the cleering of that point Or when the
not beene afore beleeued From which it euidently followeth that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians out of which as more ancient the former Hereticks originally departed and went out And with this most remarkeable Men I end remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgmeÌ„ts now after the perusing of this smale Treatise whether it was the present Church of Rome or the Protestant Church which hath made this so much inculcated change and alteration from that Faith which first was preached and taught in the sayd Church of Rome by the Apostles Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEVV OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW Betweene Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raygne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Here is adioyned an Appendix wherin is taken a short Suruey contayning a full Answere of a Pamphlet intituled A Treatise of the Visibility and Succession of the True Church in all ages Printed Anno. 1624. Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in Penetralibus noâ—â—â—e credere Math. 24. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX THE ARGVMENT MICHAEAS after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine and D. Whitakers touching Romes chang in Religion through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest trauelleth into many Countries to see their Vniuersities and places of learning At the length he arriueth in England where from visiting of Cambridg he cometh to Oxford Then he findeth D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus They mooue him to become Protestant He answereth that the want of performace of the Prophecies touching the Visibility of Christs Church in the Protestant Church induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church for former ages prefixing therto by mutuall consent a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof That insteed of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation Ochinus and Neuserus as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church and seing the Prophecies not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church do finally come to this point to wit absolutely and openly to affirme that the Church of Christ as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie is a false Church and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer Hereupon they both protest that from that tyme forward they do renounce the ChristiaÌ„ fayth and do embrace the Iewish Religion and so teaching Circumcision and reuiuing the Old law they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them to the contrary but their words preuayle not and so the disputatioÌ„ breaketh off What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme is hereafter set downe And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested partly out of their owne wrytings and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants so as their Apostacy is not feigned but true and reall THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible or rather hath not bene in Being since the Apostles daies till Luthers reuolt DOCTOVR REYNOLDS MICHAEAS God saue you I much reioyce to see you here in England And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present MICHAEAS I greatly thanke you M. Doctour for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither you may know that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers I haue passed through diuers Countries and Nations moued thereunto notwithstanding my greate age through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition and learning Now at the last I am arriued in England and am immediatly comne froÌ„ visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge a place in my iudgment much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it But may I make bolde to enquire of you who those two gentlemen here present are whose externall comportments do euen depose that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts for it is certaine that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde cast by the light of the inward soule DOCTOVR REYNOLDS You haue coniectured aright For both these are men of great emineÌ„cy for learuing The elder of theÌ„ is called Ochinus who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr did in King Edward the sixts tyme first plant in England the doctrine of Caluin after the Romish Religion was once abolished One whose presence in those dayes made EnglaÌ„d happie whose after absence made it Vnfortunate whom all Italy for he is an Italian could not equall This other is Neuserus the chiefe Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate a man whoÌ„ Nature his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge for he is transcendently learned and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ Both these men are reciding here for the time by reason of some late emergent occations and businesse tending to the aduancement of Christs Church I could wish Michaeas you were acquainted with them MICHAEAS Gentlemen I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle gratia vobis pax multiplicetur And I am glad that I am comne to that place where the very wals and streets in regard of such mens presence do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature OCHINVS Worthy Michaeas for so I heare you called I willingly entertayne your acquaintance for learning I prize highly in any man as holding it the chiefest riches next to true Religion wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed NEVSERVS And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here for what company of men are more to be esteemed then the Society of learned Men where themselues though few in number are a sufficient Auditory to themselues Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum they interchangeably giuing and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Haue you had Michaeas a full sight of our Vniuersity Colledges If not we are ready to accompany you throughout all the chiefe places thereof MICHAEAS I haue already seene them all and particularly your late erected schooles wherin are dayly ventilated all questions worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers and your spatious liberary the very
thereof Lastly this Inference drawne from the state of the old Testament and applyed to the New is most inconsequent Both because the New Testament is better established then the old seing to it is promised that the gates of Hell shall not preuayle against Christs Church And also it is styled The pillar and foundation of truth And finally in that the Peoples of the Iewes were not the Vniuersal Church of God as the People of the Christians are And therefore out of the Iewish Synagogue there were diuers others of the faythfull and Iust as Melchisedech Iob Cornelius the Centurion the Eueuch of Queen of Candice c. This ended this Triffler in pag. 6. seuerall other places meÌ„tioneth the vsuall Obiection taken from the words of Elias saying relictu sum solus But this is fully satisfyed in the first part or begining of the former Dialogue In the next place to wit pag. 10. he commeth to depres the glory of the Church of Christ during his aboade here vpon earth and tyme of his Passion but all this most impertinently seing the radiant splendour and Visibility of Christ his Church was cheiffly to beginne and then for euer after to continue till the worlds end after the descending of the Holy Ghost and not before This done the Authour commeth to the tymes of the Tenn Persecutions by the Heathen Emperours prouing from thence the obscurity of Christs Church in pag. 25. To which I answere that these Persecutions according to the nature of persecution were so far from making the Church of Christ in those dayes inuisible as that it became thereby most visible seeing none are persecuted but visible Men And the very names of the cheiffe Martyrs of those dayes are yet most fresh and honorable in the memoryes of all good Christians euen to this very hower they remayning yet registred in the Ecclesiasticall Historyes both of Catholicks and Protestants In pag. 26. he instanceth in the tymes of the Arians and produceth Saint Ieromes testimony and words to wit The whole World did sâ—ght and wounder that it was Arian from which authority he would proue the Inuisibility of Christs Church in those dayes But here the Authour discouereth his ignorance For here First Ierome calleth that by the figâ—â—e Synecdoche the whole World which is but a part of the World S Ierome meaning only of certaine parts of Christen 〈◊〉 Secondly S. Ierome here taketh the word Arian in a secundarye signification For here he calleth them improperly and Abusiue Arians who through Ignorance did subscrybe to the Arian Heresy For he speaketh of that great number of Bishops which came out of all parts of Christendum to Arimine and were deceaued by the Arians through their mistaking of the greeke Word Omosios and there vpon Materially only they subscrybed to the Heresy of the Arians But the same Bishopps being after admonished of their errour did instantly correct the same and bewayled their mistaking with teares and penance Thus we se the true relation of this poynt really proueth an actuall Visibility of the Orthodoxall Christians at that very tyme. Pag. 27. He insisteth in Athanasius and Liberius as the only defendours in those dayes of Christs Diuinitie and consequently that the Church of Christ did only rest in them two For thus he wryteth The Church for any externall show was brought low for if any body held it vp it was Athanasius who then played least in sight and durst not appeare Heere is strang and wilfull mistaking for though it be granted that Athanasius in regard of his feruour and learning was more persecuted by the Arians then any other Bishop yet to â—auer that himselfe alone or Liberius did only impugne the Heresy of Arius and that there were no other Orthodoxall Beleiuers at that tyme is most improbable or rather most absurd This is proued first from the Councell which was assembled cheifly for the suppressing of the Arian Heresy at which Councell Athanasius hymselfe was present This Councell consisted of three hundred Bishopps and more the greatest part whereof by their voyces did absolutly condemne the Arian Heresy Now how can it be conceaued that all the said Bishopps speaking nothing of the Orthodoxall Laity of that tyme excepting only Athanasius should instantly either a fore or after apostatate or through feare of Persecution externally profes the Arian Heresy Againe the truth of this poynt is further confirmed from the Epistle which Athanasius and the Bishops of Thebes and Lybia gathered together in the Councell of Alexandria did wryte to Pope Paelix the Second of that name wherein they vnanimously protest to defend with all Christian resolution their Orthodoxall fayth against their Enemyes the Arians Thirdly the falshood of the former Assertion is euicted from that that many Fathers and Doctours liuing in the very age of Aâ—hanasius and Libertus and diuers of them euen in the dayes of Athanasius and well knowne to hym did refute and contradict ex professo the Arian Heresy in their learned wrytings As for example Basil Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyssene Cyrill of Ierusalem Hilarius Ambrose Epiphanius and some others Now in respect of the Premisses can it be but dreamed that there should be no Professours of the Diuinity of Christ in those dayes but only Athanasius or Liberius Pag. 25. The Pamphleter leauing examples authorityes descendeth to Reason thus arguing Faith doth much consist of things which are not seene Therefore seing we beleiue the Holy Church as an article of our fayth it followeth that it needs not to be euer eminently visible or apparently sensible vnto vs. Learnedly concluded Therefore for the better instruction of this Pamphleter he is to vnderstand that in the Church of God there is something to be seene and something to be beleiued We do see that company of men which is the Church and therein the Church is euer visible But that that Company or Society is the true visible Church of God that we see not but only beleiue Euen as the Apostles did see that very Man which is Christ the Sonne of God but that he was the Sonne of God this the Apostles did not see but only beleiue In pag. 28. and 29. as also in some other pages afore he much insisteth in the words spoken of the Woman in the Reuelations cap. 12. of whom it was prophecyed that she should flye into the Wildernes affirming that by the Woman is vnderstood the Church which is not to be seene in tyme of persecution To this I answere first this passage being taken from out of the Reuelations cannot as euidently to vs men proue any thing seing the Reuelations being deliuered in visions prophecyes many of them being yet vnaccomplished and figuratiue speeches we cannot so easily apprehend the true sense meaning of them Secondly What diuers learned Catholicks and some Protestants do vnderstand by the Woman in the reuelations differently from the vrging of
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the
at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England which was about a thousand yeares since our present Roman Religion was then wholy and publickely practised in Rome that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles that this change should haue beene made not since but before Gregories time and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ I may adde M. Doctour in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein the iudgment of your owne Centurists who in their Index or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century at the Word Gregory set downe with particuler figures ofreferences where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus de CoÌ„fessione de coÌ„iugio de Ecclesia de sanctorum â—nuocatione do Inferno de Libero arbitrio de â—ustificatione de Purgatorio de Paeniâ—entia de satisfactione c. And which is more your sayd CeÌ„turists do further accuse Gregory out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars Chalices Corporals with oblatioÌ„ of sacrifice for the dead with translation of Reltques with Monachisme with Pilgrimages with consecration of Churches with Masse spriâ—kling of holy-water With consecration of the fort of Baptisme of Chrâ—â—sâ—â—e Oyle with celibratio of Masse finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches All which places of the Centurists charging him are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof To these former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander your famous Protestant which are these Augustinus Romanos Ritus et consuetudines Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites doctrines practized and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome which as he confesleth Augustine did plant establish in England a poynt so euident that euen your owne selfe M. Doctour auertes that Boniface the third who liued anno 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory and all his successours were Antichrists Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England made by this Gregory and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after thus conclude The Conuersions of so many countries were not pure but corrupt With you herein Dauaeus that remarkable Protestant conspirech who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England Purgatio illa quam Gregorius primus fecit c. fuit iâ—ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta de qua est Apocalips 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity to the worke of Antichrist And thus M Doctour you here may see how the Church of God through an ouer vnkind peruerting and misconsturing her most motherly and charitable endeauours hath reason even to complaine and grieue at those who vaunt themselues for her owne Children so the Vine being vntimely cut weeps out its mishap through out it owne wound Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe M. Doctour other Protestant writers we may infallibly conclude that from this day till we arriue at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory the present Roman Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries consequently seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome as an Innouation and change of the Faith afore professed by the said Church Now it being made euident first that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ and also that for this last thousand yeares the present RomaÌ„ Catholicke Faith hath not at any time thereof bin first brought into the world but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome It now followeth that we take into our consideratioÌ„ the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred and forty from Christ and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares some more from Christ to vs amounteth to about one hundred and sixty yeares Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome within the compasse of this 160. yeares then followeth it vnauoidably that the Church of Rome neuer to this day hath suffered any alteration in Fayth and Religion since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares I prooue seuerall waies yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth like as diuers lesser numbers though counted after different waies make vp but one and the same great number And first this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine which was beleeued and generally taught at such tyme as Constantine who was our first Christian Emperour was conuerted to Christianity which was about the yeare 320. after Christ and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares That the Faith in his time was the same that the Church of Rome professeth at this present appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists who most elaborately punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies now vsed in the Church of Rome And the said Centurists are so exact and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine and of the Catholicke Rites and Ceremo ies obserued in his time as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point to wit from Column 452. to Column 497. or thereabout Now that not only Constantine himselfe but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church is in like sort abundantly confessed registred by the said Centurists they spending most of the leaues of the said Century in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines and the doctours of that age beleeuing teaching them and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point I remit you M. Doctour to the â—â—ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century touching which particuler subiect I am so confident that I dare auouche that by the industry of the said Centurists the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully articulatly according to my former speaches registred as the perfect memory thereof as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes is able to turne the syth of time so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories so long as they shal be extant the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times But M. Doctour for the greater euidency of this point I pray you tell me whether it is your iudgment that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age but especially those who
Augustins comming into England Thirdly it is prooued that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine and the Briton Byshops the greatest difference in matters of Fayth and Religion wherupon they stoode were but two poynts cheifly consisting in Ceremony to wit the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme and the forme of Baptizing according to the rites of Rome Fourthly and lastly it is graunted that Augustine here planted and preached to the English all Articles and points of the present Romane Religion or Papistry as you Protestants do vsually style it Now M. Doctour what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses but this To wit that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry was wholy agreeable the two points or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day and of baptising with the Rites of Rome only excepted with the Fayth and Religion which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies and consequently that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry did neuer suffer any change in her Faith and Religion since the Apostles departed This is the Argument wherin I graunt I partly insult it is inauoidable it is a demonstration And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries beating downe bearing before it whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted MICHEAS In deed my Lord it seemes to me very forcible and you did well to reserue it to the last place that so like sweet-meats it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments for though Better be better yet followeth it not but that Good is good D. WHITAKERS My Lord This your argument is tyed togeather with many links and breake but one of them all the rest are loosed And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority Negatiuely and by Omission only which you know is little valued in the schooles For the hinge as I may say or weight of it only consisteth in this That at the meeting of Augustine and the Briton Bishops dissented from Augustine But of other greater points we read no mention made among them and therfore for any thing we know the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence as agree with them CARD BELLARM. How improbable how absurd how impossible is this you say And take heede M. Doctour that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience and beware of much practising the like hereafter since the Character of any bad course impressed by a long habit at length becoms indelible But to the point Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled and then deliuer an impartiall and euen censure The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together Augustine imitating therin S. Paul vt conferat cum illis Euangelium quod praedicat in Gentibus The Britons euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox did beare themselues at the first against Augustine with great pertinacy stubbernes and therfore the lesse probable it is that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment more then was agreeable to their owne Religion The differences betweene them after much disquisition and search are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies and seeming indifferency The Recorder of this great Passage was principally S. Bede who ex professo did write most elaborately and punctually the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times and therein was obliged by his designed method not to register the smallest occurrents and wholy to omit the greatest Now then can we dreame that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse Praying to Saints Purgatory Free-will Iustification by works Images Monachisme the Primacy of Peter and some others all being Articles of greatest importance and particulerly taught by S. Augustine were either not mentioned and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine and the Briton Bishops or they being then painfully discussed and ventilated the Britons being so refractory and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points would quietly and without resistance embrace all these high doctrines as Innouations and repugnant to their Fayth first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia Or if the Briâ—on Bishops veâ—lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome would not such their reluctation and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede and other writers of those tymes who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes and coldnes in the least matters of this History It is great weakenes but to suppose such impossibilities It is madnes and lunacy to beleeue them Therfore my absolute and last resolution here is that the Fayth of Augustine was then one and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons first preached to them in the Apostles dayes the Ceremonies of Baptising and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted which lesser errours S. Augustine obseruing the Britons stiffnes thought perhaps would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary like to some diseases which are best cured by continuing the diseases Now for the fuller close of this poynt to wit touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine with the then Doctrine and Fayth of the Briton Bishops I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues of whom S. Bede thus relateth Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae quam praedicaret Augustinus so vnanimous we see were the Britons Augustine in their Fayth and Religion and therfore it was not strange that at the last as D. Fulke affirmeth Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops to the conuersion of the Saxons And thus far of this argument the which shall serue as the Catastrophe or end of this my Scene wherin I haue vndertaken though more then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto to prooue by positiue arguments and reasons that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth and religion since the Apostles dayes my cheife allectiue Micheâ—s inducing me therto being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect or Question MICHEAS My L. Cardinall I render you humble thankes and I must say that these your former arguments produced seeme to me very moouing and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments they will I coÌ„fesse impell my Iudgment to giue it free and full consent to the beleeuing of that point for the proofe wherof they are by your Lordship alleadged CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour Seeing there is no truth so illustrious and radiant but that in an vndiscerning eye it may seeme to be clowded for the time with the interposition of some weake Obiections
quid gratius offerri aut suscipi possit quà m caro Sacrificii nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri We are here to remember that this Councell of Lateran was holden in the yeare 1215. In which were assembled the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople 70 Metropolitan Bishops 400. Bishops and 800. Conuentuall Priours Now can it enter into any braine to thinke that all these learned Men being gathered together from all the seuerall places of the world and many of them neuer seeing diuers of the rest till they were there met should all ioyntly embrace as an innouation and afore neuer heard of a doctrine so contrary to sense and fleshly vnderstanding It is incompatible with common reason to beleeue that such a generall Errour could so suddenly inuade and possesse the iudgments of so many learned Prelates But to demonstrate the antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation in which sacred Mistery the eye of Faith seeth things inuisible It is confessed by M. Fox that about the yeare of our Lord 1060. the denying of Transubstantiation began to be accoumpted an Heresy and the professours therof Heretickes and in that number was first one Berengarius who liued about the yeare 1060. Now then if the denying of the doctrine of Transubstantiation was accoumpted an Heresy more then a hundred yeares afore the CouÌ„cell of Lateran was assembled how could the doctrine of TransubstaÌ„tiation take it first beginning at that Councel Who seeth not the impossibility hereof Againe how could that doctrine in the times set downe by M. Fox be denyed and impugned except it were then afore beleeued and maintained But to proceede to higher times Doth not D. Humfrey confesse that Gregory the Great who liued fiue huÌ„dred yeares and more before the Councell of Lateran first brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation saying In Ecclesiam vorò quid inuexerunt Gregorius Augustinus inâ—ulerunt c. Transubstantiationem Againe your owne Centurists thus speake of Eusebius Emissenus an ancient Father Eusebius Emissenus pâ—rùm commodè de Transubstantiatione dixit And of Chrisostome your foresayd Brethren thus write Chrysostomus Transubstantiationem videtur confirmare Chrysostome doth seeme to confirme Transubstantiation The Antiquity of which Doctrine is so great that Adamus Francisci a learned Protestant thus acknowledgeth Transubstantiation did enter early into the Church Now M. Doctour how do all these liberall confessions of so many eminent Protestants stand with your assertion to wit that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was first inuented in the Later an Councell And consequently that the Church of Christ suffered at that time a most remarkeable change and alteration in so sublime an Article MICHEAS The Doctrine of the Reall Presence taught by the Church of Rome in respect of the Sacrifice there performed is most conformable to the Prophesies of the ancient Iewes for to omit the Sacrifice of Melchisadech which many did teach to prefigure the Sacrifice which was to be exhibited after the comming of the Messias we finde most of our ancient Rabbins to be of this minde Accordingly hereto we read that Rabby Iudas thus writeth The bread shal be changed when it shal be sacrificed from the substance of bread into the sacrifice of the body of the Messias which shall descend from Heauen and himselfe shal be the sacrifice With Which Rabby to omit diuers others Rabby Symeon agreeth in these words The Sacrifice which after the Messias his comming Priests shall make c. they shall make it of bread wine c. And that sacrifice which shal be so celebrated on the Altar shal be turned into the Body of the Messias So conspiringly M. Doctour we see did our ancient Iewes before Christs birth by way of PredictioÌ„ teach with the prsent Roman Church touching the Reall Presence and the sacrifice performed therin And therfore it is the more straÌ„ge to me that the Doctrine of the Reall Presence and of the Sacrifice should be reputed by you as an â—nnouatioÌ„ lately brought into the Church of Rome for I must needs thinke that Christ himselfe did first institute the same And thus I beleeue that though in our Law Isaack was externally offred vp though not Sacrificed Yet now in the New Testament the Messias is daily Sacrificed though not externally offered vp D. WHITAKERS My Lord Cardinall To passe from the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall Presence or TransubstaÌ„tiation Yet how can you excuse from Nouelisine those phrases touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist first inuented by Pope Nicolaus the second to wit that the body of Christ is sensibly handled broken and chewed with the teeth So grossely do you Romanists teach herein as to maintaine a Doctrine which hath nothing to plead for it but only some few hundreds of yeares CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You now carry your selfe like a cowardly Mastiâ—ie pardon this my homely similitude which not being able to take any strong and firme hold at the head of his enemy is glad in the end to catch at the flanck or other the hindermost parts So you seing you cannot truly charge the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall presence with innouation are content to quarrell and snatch at certaine phrases and words vsed by some Doctours about the said Doctrine But to your obiection Which once granting the truth of the Reall Presence is meerely verball Therefore I say that these phrases are taken in a sober and restiained construction That is they are immediatly to be referred to the formes of Bread and Wine vnder which the body bloud of Christ do lye Now that these phrases were not first coyned by this Pope Nicolaus as you auerre it is euident out of the writings of S. Chrysostome who liued many ages before this Pope Nicolaus This Father in one place thus writeth Christ suffered fraction or breaking in the oblation which he would not suffer vpon the Crosse And in an other place more fully saying ipsum vides ipsum targis ipsum comedis And yet more expresly Non se tantum videir permittit desider antibus sed et tangi et manancari et denies carni suae infigi Christ doth not only permit himselfe to be scene of those who desired to see him but also to be touched and eaten by them and theire teeth to be fastened in his flesh Thus we see that S. Chrysostom was not afraid to vse the foresaid phrases in a reserued sence which you make so capitall heinous We may adioyne hereto that Iacobus Andreas a famous Protestant but a Lutheran answereth this very obiection which you father vpon Pope Nicolaus as the first inuentor of the former phrazes and thus concludeth thereof saying This obiection taken from Pope Nicolaus nihil continet quod inscriptis Orthodoxorum Patrum Chysostomi in primisâ— non continetur D. WHITAKERS I will not be long in reciting Innouations of strange Doctrins introduced into the Church of Rome since the
Apostles times Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor Temporum which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus CARD BELLARM. The Vessell M. Doctour from whence you draw these Instances seemes to runne very low and nere the dreggs Seeing for want of examples for change in dogmaticall points of faith you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts For what is this to the alteration of Faith and Religion in the Church of Rome in any dogmaticall Article which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes The Apostles you know did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud and of things strangled and may not the Church succeeding them as lawfully command that at certaine times of the yeare and for some few dayes the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash and vse a more moderate dyet But it seemes you loue not to feede vpon superstitious Popish fish since many of you accoumpt it so Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor TemporuÌ„ Where you say it was first ordained by Calixius you grant hereby that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares since it first institution for Calixtus was the next successour but one to Pope Victor which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord and Sauiour one hundred and sixty Thus you are more preiudized then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation I will annex hereto that whereas M. Doctour you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus with the first beginning of this Fast we on the contrary side can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost his words are these following Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt And thus much touching the Antiquity and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum whereof you see M. Doctour your owne bare assertion excepted no certaine beginning can be knowne since the Apostles dayes But Sir proceede further in other instances if so you can D. WHITAKERS Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour The time is already spent And I hope my former examples notwithstanding your subtill euading of them are able to sway with all such who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD BELLARM. I beleeue you well You will not labour further therin the true reason being because you cannot For I haue perused your bookes written against Duraeus wherein you cheifly instaÌ„ce touching the chaÌ„ge of the faith of Rome and your other Bookes against Father Campian that blessed Martyr as also your writings against my selfe and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change insisted by you then these alleadged Yea when the said Father Campian as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants to name the time and other circumstances accompanying this supposed change in those his vehement and inforcing Interrogations QuaÌ„do hanc fideâ—tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit quardo esse desiâ—t quod antefuit quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis Vrbem et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena quas voces quas turbes quae lamenta progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt dum Roma Roma inquaÌ„ noua Sacramenta nonum Sacrificium nouum Religionis dogma procuderet You though thus a wakened yet in your answere hereto only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius aboue refuted touching the single life of Priests in place of further satisfaction you thus reply to the said Father Campian Tuverò si dubitas an desierit meaning whether Rome had changed it Religion potes etiam si vis dubitare ansul meridie splendeat Can any man not blinded with preiudice thinke that if you had any materiall proofes for it change being a point of the greatest consequence that is betweene you and vs but that you being thus extremely importâ—ned would haue particularly iusisted in them and would haue enlarged such your reply with all reading wit learning possible And as for your former Instances they are most impertinent and in themselues most false as is aboue demonstrated they being wâ—res I presume wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine like the spiders web which is spinned out of her owne Bowels MICHEAS M. Doctonr you must giue me leaue to tell you that your Instances aboue vrged do not much sway my iudgment first because they are not in number past some nine or ten in all of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence so as it may be iustly coniectured that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine purposely therby to make shew in this your so great a scarcity of greater number of Examples The rest concerne Priests nor marying Purgatory auricular Confession and the fast of Quauor Temporum Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points as I am enformed betweene the Church of Rome and the Protestants Therfore I must presume that no instances can be but suggested or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church of Praying to Saints of Free-will Merit of workes Workes of supererogation Indulgences Monachisme Lymbus patruÌ„ Images the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion only vnder one kind Vninersallity of Grace the Necessuy and vertue of the Sacraments Inherent iustice the knowledge of Christ a man His being God of God and diuers others Secondly in that touching your former Instances some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes as I haue shewed as that I can hardly repute them as Innouations D. WHITAKERS The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes in some of the former doctrines is of smale force seeing you well know Micheas that the Law was to be abrogated at the comming of the Messias MICHEAS It is granted that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world was to be disanulled so far forth as concerne either sacrifices or other Ceremonies which did prefigure the comming of the Messias yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes haue no reference to his comming as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory Confession of sinns c. therfore there can be no reason alleadged why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace Wee may add hereto that if euery thing which was taught and commanded by the Law should now be abrogated then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to
Greeke word or phrase carieth with it a greater grace emphecy and force then the same in Latin or English will beare But this I euer auerre that to be ready vpon euery little occasion to prostitute or staule forth ones Greeke a disteÌ„perature peculiar to Protestants as if he tooke a pride in that he is skilfull in coniugating of typtò This man I say deserues to be verberated throughout all the moodes and tences of the word for such his folly This course being among all graue learned men iustly censured for an exploded vanity But now M. Doctour to descend to your reason touched aboue and drawne from the authority of the holy Scripture Here I say you haue taken your last Sanctuary not in that the Scripture maketh for you and against vs but that by this meanes you may the better reiect all other authorities though neuer so forcible reduce the triall of all coÌ„trouersies to your owne priuat Iudgments since you will acknowledge no other seÌ„ce of the scripture theÌ„ what the Genius of ProtestaÌ„cy doth vouchsafe to impose vpon the Letter thus by your faire pretended Glosse of the Scripture in this your last extremity you Protestants well reseÌ„ble that Man who being ready to fall thinketh not how to preuent the fall but how to fall in the fayrest and easiest place The like I say you do vnder the priuiledge of the reuealing spirit interpreting the Scripture the vaine fluctuating vncertainty of which Spirit to discouer though this place be not capable therof were indeed to cut in sunder the cheife Artery which giueth life to the huge Body of Heresie since once take away this Priuate Spirit Heresie is but like a dying laÌ„pe which hath no oyle to feede it Only I will here pronouÌ„ce that as some haue thus left written That must be good which Nero persecuteth so here I do iustify by the contrary that it must be euill and false which the Priuate Spirit affecteth and manteineth But let vs proceed herein further and dissect the veine of this your last most despayring tergiuersation First then wee are to call to minde that it hath euer beene the very countenance and eye of all innouation in religion to seeke to support it selfe by misapplyed and racked Texts of Scripture a practise so anciently vsed though in these later dayes it hath receaued more full groath as that it was obserued by Augustine Hierome Tertullian and finally by old Vincentius Lyrinensis who thus expressely writeth not only of his owne times but euen in a presaging spirit of our times An Haeretici diuinis Scripturae testimoniis vtantur Viuntur planè vehementer quidem Sed tantò magis cauendi suâ—â— Now this being so you are forced M. Doctour for your last retire and refuge to compart in practise with all ancient and moderne Hereticks Secondly the Scripture cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture and consequently it is not able to decide all controuersies which assertion of mine is warranted by your prime men M. Hooker thus teaching Of things necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes wee are bound to esteeme holy which poynt is confessed impossible for the scripture it selfe to teach And according hereto you Protestants do not agree which Bookes be Canonicall Scripture which Apocriphall For doth not Luther and diuers of the Lutherans recite as apocriphall the booke of Iob Ecclesiastes the Epistle of S. Iames the Epistle of Iude the secoÌ„d Epistle of Peter the secoÌ„d and third of Iohn and finally the Apocalipes All which bookes are neuerthelesse acknowledged by Caluin and the Caluenists for canonicall Scripture Thirdly euen of those bookes which all Protestants ioyntly receiue as Canonicall Scripture the Protestants doe coÌ„demne as most false and corrupt not only the present originals but also all Translations of the said bookes whether they be made in Greeke Latin or English as apeareth from the reciprocall condemnations of one anothers Translation for the more full discouery of which point I referre you M. Doctour to the perusing of a booke some few yeares since written by a Catholicke Priest and Doctour of diuinity entituled The Pseudoscripturists Fourthly the very text and letter of such bookes as you all acknowledg for Canonicall Scripture are more cleere for our Catholicke Faith and in that sence are expounded by the ancient Fathers then any the Countertexts are which you produce to impunge our doctrine For some tast I will exemplify the perspicuity of the letter in some few points And first for the Primacy of Peter we alleadge Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church c. expounded With vâ—by Augustine Hierome Cyprian others For the Reall Presence we insist in our Sauiours words This is my Body this is my Blood taken in our sense by Theophilact Chrysostome the Cyrils Ambrose and indeed by all the ancient Fathers without exception For Priests remitting of sinnes we vrge that whose sinnes you shall renut they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes you shall reteine are reteyned which passage is interpreted in our Catholicke sence by Hierome Chrisostome Augustine and others For Necessity of Baptisme Except a a Man be borne againe of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdome of Heauen Of which our Catholicke exposition see Augustine Chrisostome Ambrose Hierome Cyprian c. For Iustification by works Do you see because of works a man is Iustisied and not by Faith only expounded with vs to omit all others for breuity by Augustine Lastly to auoid prolixitie for vnwritten Traditions we vsually alleadge those words of the Apostle Therefore Brethren hold the Traditions which you haue receiued either by steach or by Epistle interpreted with vs Catholicks by Damâ—scene Basill Chrysostome c. Thus farre for a â—ast herein in which Texts and diuers others omitted you are to note M. Doctour first that the Texts themselues are so plaine and literall that the very Thesis or Conclusion it selfe mantained by vs is conteined in the Words of the said Texts and therefore you Protestants are forced by way of answere commonly to expound those texts figuratiuely Secondly you are to be aduertised here that as we can produce many Fathers expounding these and other like places in our Catholicke sence so you are not able to alleadge any one approoued Father among so many interpreting but any one of the said passages of scripture in your Protestant Construction Thirdly and lastly you are to obserue that such texts as the Protestants vrge against these other Catholicke Articles defended by vs are nothing so literall plaine and naturall for their purpose but for the most part are vrged by them by way of inference and deduction which kinde of proofs is often false and sometimes but probable Neither can you or
Lord the doctour you see is gone and indeed I much dislike his bitter eiaculation of reprochfull words against the Church of Rome little sorting to the presumed grauity of a christian Doctour but the matter is not great since obloquy is but basenes and the skumme of malice and that tongue which knowes not to honour cannot dishonour But now touching your learned dispute it hath I humbly thanke the Lord of Hoasts and your charitable endeauour wrought in me so much as that I well know towards what shoare I may anker and stay my heretofore floating and vnsetled iudgment I see it is already acknowledged euen by her enemies that the Church of Rome enioyed in her primitiue times a true perfect and incorrupt faith as the Apostle doth fully assure vs I see that your selfe my Lord partly by handling the Subiect in grosse partly by distribution of times in which this supposed change is dremed to haue happened partly by displaying the diuersity of the Protestants Opinions touching the first coÌ„ming of Antichrist who is said to haue beene the first who wrought this change and partly by other forcible arguments haue demonstratiuely and irrepliably euicted that since the Apostles there hath bene no change of faith made at all in the Church of Rome Finally I see that the examples of this imaginary change instanced by the Doctour who as I am aduertised hath more laboured in the search of this subiect then any other Protestant were so defectiue aâ—d maimed as that they receiue theire full answere and encounter both from your former discussed heads as also from your Lordship proouing a greater confessed antiquity of the said Articles then the instances do vrge and lostly euen from the Doctours liberall acknowledgment who plainly coÌ„fesseth that he knoweth not the time when this his change receiued it beginning Since then all these points are made so euident and vndeniable I grant they haue swaighed and ouer-ballanced my iudgment indifferently heretofore to either side enclining and haue enduced me indubiously to beleeue that the fayth of the Church of Rome at this day is as at the first it was to wit pure spotlesse and inchangeable But now seeing no man can be a perfect Christian except he actually enioy the Sacrament of Baptisme which is the first dore as you Christians teach that leadeth a man to the misteries of your Religion therefore most illustrious Cardinall I renouncing my former Iudaisme and wholy rendring my selfe a true disciple and seruant of Christ Iesus as acknowledging that the Redemption of Israell is in him come do here prostrate my selfe in desire to receiue this Sacrament euen from you that as your tongue is the cheife instrument vnder the highest for my beleefe of the Catholicke fayth so your hand may be the like instrument for the conferring vpon me the benefit of that sacred Mistery where by a man is first incorporated and as it were matriculated in the bosome of the Catholicke Church CARD BELLARM. Worthy Micheas I much ioy that our discourse hath wrought so happy a resolution in you as to embrace the Catholicke and Roman fayth and giue sole thankes to him therefore who is higher then the highest Heauen and yet as low as the Center of the earth who thus hath vouchsafed by his grace to descend to the bottome of your harte and let the remembeance of your precedent staine in Iudaisme be a spurre for your greater perfection in the Christian Religion So shall you resemble that body which receiueth it greater health from it former sicknes And be sure that euery day you encrease more and more in Christian vertues nulla dies sine linea And takeheed that you grow not lukewarme in this your resolution or come to a stand of your present feruour But remember that such motions of the soule of this nature which are stationary are therein become Retrograde since here not to go forward is to go backeward And as touching the precedent subiect of our discourse rest you assured that the faith of Christ first preached in Rome was neuer yet in any one dogmaticall point altered since it first plantation The Church of Rome was and doubtlesly is the true Church of Christ which Church is so farre from broaching change and innouation by her intertayning but any one Errour as that therefore it is most truly prophesied of it that it is a MouÌ„taine prepared in the top of Mountaines exalted about Hils It being indeed seated of such a hight as that neither the thundring fragors of the persecutours cruelty nor the windes of Hereticks speaches and endeauours were euer able to reach so high as by introducing nouelty in fayth to disioynt the setled frame thereof so true is the saying of that holy father whose fire of zeale brought him to the flames of Martyrdome adulterari non potest sponsa Christi incorrupta est et pudica Now touching your baptizing Micheas wee will take such present course therein as shall giue you all full satisfaction MICHEAS I humbly thanke your Lordship But I am further here to aduertise your Lordship that if so it might be thought lawfull and conuenient that he who heretofore denyed Christ might after be permitted to be a dispenser of the Mysteries and treasure of Christ I could then greatly wish that after I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme at your hands I might be aduanced to the holy Order of Preisthood that so now in the last scene of my old age my endeauours of this nature hereafter to be attempted in the Catholicke Church might partly redeeme my former mispent labours in the Iewish Synagogue My single course of life and vnmarryed state best sorteth thereto and my owne desire is most vehement and forcing And indeed I am persuaded that the profitable talents of a good Christian ought in part to resemble the engendring riches of an vsurer who breeds vpon siluer and whose Tocòs or interest money is no sooner begotten then it begetteth So should it fare with a man of sufficiency deuoted to Christ his seruice who being become of late his adopted sonne should himselfe instantly labour to be a parent vnder Christ of other such like sonnes O how ineffable a comfort it is when a man may truly yet modestly say through his spirituall trauell fruitfully employed towardes others as your Lordship may now of me In Christo â—esu per Euangelium vos genui And how truly honourable is that profession of life which consisteth in the negotiation and trafiking as I may say of saluation of soules Et ero mercator in domo Domini Exercituum CARD BELLARM. I Commend much your great feruour herein But yet I hold it more secure to pause for a time to see whether this your resolution touching Priest hood being but the Primitiae of your spirit be steddy and permanent or whether hereafter it may alter and wauer And if so then would it follow that your present taking of that course would
passage touching Waldo and the Waldenses and their followers After this Authour hath finished his speech of the Waldenses he further thus proceedeth The Authour of the sixtenth Century nameth about the yere 1500. Baptista Mantuanus and Franciscus Picus Earle of Mirandula both which inueighed against the Cleargy and their whole practize Also one D. Keisers pergius an other called Iohn Hilton a third named Doctour Andreas Proles and Sauanorola all grawning vnder the burden of those tymes Againe the Pamphleter thus saith Aud the same is written of Trimetheus an other learned Man who liued at that tyme. Thus this our Authour Now how exorbitantly and wildly are these vrged for Protestants For First they are auerred to be such only by Protestant Wryters to wit Oâ—â—ander and Pantaleon who heerein may well be presumed for the vphoulding of their owne Protestant Church to be partial in their Relations Secondly this Treatizer doth not instance any poynts of Protestancy beleiued by any of them which if he could no doubt he would not haue omitted but only vrgeth their wrytings against some pretended abuses of the Church of Rome in those dayes And therfore such his proceeding is but calumnye and impertinency Lastly touching Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for as for the others they are so obscure that hardly any particular information can be had of them It is certaine that they were both Roman Catholicks and dyed in that Religion For as concerning Sauanorola he beleiued all the Articles of the Roman fayth as euidently appeareth out of his owne writings styled Vigiliae excepting the doctrine of the Popes power to excommunicate This one point he contumaciously denyed and for this he was burnt Touching Picus of Mirandula Syr Thomas More of blessed memory wryting his life showeth that he was so fully a Roman Catholicke that in his life tyme he sould a great part of his lands to giue to the poore that he often vsed to scourge discipline his owne flesh that if he had liued longer he intended to haue entred into the Religious Order of the Dominican Pryars That in tyme of his sicknes he receaued according to the Catholicke custome the most blessed and reuerend Sacrament of Christs body and bloud for his Viaticum Finally that hearing the Priest in his sicknes to repeate vnto him the articles of the Roman fayth and being demanded whether he beleiued them Answered He did not only beleiue them but did know them also to be true So fowly we see this Pamphleter is ouerseene in alledging Sauanorola and Picus of Mirandula for Protestants But to proceede further This idle waster of penne inke paper for I can tearme him no better next descendeth in a retrograte and disorderly method to Laurentius Valla the Gramaâ—iaÌ„ who touching the Articles of the Roman Catholicke fayth only denyed freewill as appeareth euen froÌ„ the ProtestaÌ„t Writers And who after g submitted himselfe to the Pope and finally dyed in all poynts Catholicke all which this Authour affectedly concealeth He saith of Valla in this sort Valla wrote a Treatise of purpose against the forged donation of Constantine He pronounceth of his owne experience that the Pope maketh war against peaceable People and soweth discord betweene Cittyes and prouinces c. With much more refuse of base matter concerning the supposed coueteousnes of the Pope yet notwithstanding all this he nameth not any one Article of Protestancy defended by Valla. But the Pamphleter thus further proceedeth to others saying About the same tyme liued Nicolaus Clemingius who rebuked many things in the Ecclesiasticall State and spake excellently in the matter of Generall Councells c. Petrus de Aliaco Cardinal of Cambray gaue atract to the Councell of Constance touching reformation of the Church There he doth reproue many notable abuses against the Romanists c. About the same tyme liued Leonardus Aretinus whose litle Booke against Hypocrates is worth the reading So is the Oration of Antontus Cornelius Linnicanus laying open the lend lubricity of Priests in his dayes So doth he detect many abuses and errours who wrote the ten agreiuances of Germany But those who compiled the hundred agreuances of the German Nation do discouer many more And then the Pamphleter most ambitiously or rather ridiculously thus concludeth By this tyme I trust it is manifest how false a slaunder of the Papistsis that before the dayes of Martin Luther there was neuer any of our Religion Egregiam verè laudem spolia ampla refectis Tu calamusque tâ—â—s For who obserueth not how absurdly you Pamphleter do apologize For the Visibility of your Church Thus good Reader thou seest that this Authour instanceth in Valla and others aboue mencioned for Protestants and yet setteth not downe any one Article of Protestancy beleiued by them for not any of them denyed the Reall presence Purgatory prayer to saincts the Seauen Sacraments Iustification by Works the Popes Supremacy c. All that this Authour can produce theÌ„ for is because they did wryte Satyrically and bitterly against the abuses of the Church in those dayes But to this we replye That it is granted on all sydes that both in the Catholicke and the Protestant Church there haue bene and still are diuers of irregular and disedifying lyues Must now those who in their wrytings or Sermons reprehend such be necessarily supposed to be of a different fayth from those whom they so reprehend Who seeth not the weaknes of this inconsequent and absurd kynd of reasoning From the former Iustances the Pamphleter ascendeth to Iohn l Wiclef prostituring him for a Protestant And heere also he spendeth many leaues in wandring excursions of speeches and indeede to no other end but as I intimated a fore to dawbe inke vpon paper For he pretendeth to show the Aussits had receaued their doctrine out of the Books of Wiclef how the Councell of Constance condemned Wiclef for an Heretiycke as also how the doctryne of Wiclef was much dilated heare in England But to manifest how impertinent the alledging of Wiclef for a Protestant is I refer the Reader to the Dialogue where are showed out of Wiclefs one Wrytings the many Catholicke articles of the Roman Religion to wit the doctrine of the seauen Sacraments Rites and Ceremonies of the Masse praying to our Blessed Lady worship of Images merit of Works and works of Supererogation c. still beleiued by him euen after his leaping out of our Church As also there are showed the many condemned Heresies in like sort mantayned by him after his departure from the Roman Church and this from the penns of the Protestants But here before I end with Wiclefe I must put the Reader in mind of one notorious Collusion or deceate much practized by this Pamphleter touching diuers of the former men alledged for Protestants but most particularly touching Wiclefe It is this He here particularizeth no Protestant articles but only the denying of Transubstantiation yet where
autem crucis And then thinke what greife it were that this Soule through want of true fayth should returne to it former thraldome Alas my L. Is 〈…〉 not greate pitye to see diuers yong students of eleuated Witts and apprehencsions either to receaue their Religion which they beleiue to be true from the bare affiance and trust of their Readers and Maysters without any further examining or tryall of it Or els litle to pryze any Religion at all And thus in this later maner this poore Materia Prima being Formlâ—sse is ready indifferently and without choyce to entertayne the impression of any Religion Now is it not great pitye I say to suffer these Soules to perish eternally as not hauing an articulate perfect Christian fayth Which fayth ought so to be qualified seing it auayleth litle to beleiue in Christ except we beleiue truly in Christ For though fayth be heare to be requyred yet a false fayth is as preiudicial as a meare Misbeleiffe So light is more necessary to the eye then darknes yet not being well proportioned is more dangerous to the eye then darknes And indeed my L. I must confesse that I do more fully glasse their danger in my owne former want of fayth when I continued a lew And am in this respect more ready to imparte the benefit of that to others of which my selfe haue allready so fully tasted Now for this my attempt my selfe being an Alien I must shrowd it vnder the wings of the lyke atteÌ„mpts of S. Peter and other the Apostles who were not afrayd to go by our Lords commandement into strange Countreyes to preach teach the faith of Christ Euntes in mundum vniuersum praedicate Euangelium omni Creaturae And my good Lord I must therefore further say that though a Zeraphicall and burning zeale in this kind may in an humane eye seeme to be but a kind of madnes And that high Vertues of this Nature through want of due consideration do rather offend then please yet since the Apostles did first tract this vnusuall path their example hath more emboldned me to tread herein their stepps VICE-CHANCELOVR Good God See vnto what an assent of impiety Mans nature is arryued I meane heere not only to do euill but to make the Holy Apostles patrons of the said euill No Michaeas As soone may the Idoll Dagon stand by the Arke as your pernitious Machinations beare affinity with the actions of the Apostles You preach not Christ but Antichrist and you must remember that Christ himselfe said Who gathereth not with me scatereth MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour I see you much labour to haue the aduantage of the day against mee so willing you are that I should lye prostrate with the basest shame Yet my comfort is that Innocency though oppressed still continues Innocency But to come to the poynt What haue I donne which the glorious Apostles may not seeme to haue donne They went into forayne Countryes without any peculiar licence of the Princes of them to preach the Gospell of Christ I heare being a stranger haue aduentured to initiate some students in the fayth of Rome which is the sole true fayth of Christ They preached peaceably without raising of tumults or teaching disobedience against the Prince of the Country I did yet neuer intimate in my words or actions the least spote of disobedience against the supreme Magistrate since I hould it a mighty errour to seeke â—o order things by disorderly courses They most happely pulled thousands of Soules out of the iawes of the Deuil I do confesse my sole end was to do some good in that kynd if so God would vouchsafe to blesse therein my endeuours And most ioyfull I should be if through my owne labour vnder Christ I might say but of any one straying Soule with the good Father in the Gospell This my sonne was dead but is reuyued was lost and is found Breifly theâ— for such their accheiuements finished their dayes in most blâ—ssed Martyrdomes O that might be so happy as to â—edeâ—me â—y maninfold 〈◊〉 with so glorious a death so true is that sentence The bloud of Martirs is the key of Paradise Heere now my good L. Yf you condemne me how can you free them Therefore either absolue me with them or accuse them with me Since all of vs be either guilty or all Innocent Yf guilty I glorye to haue such Precedents of this my imaginary Cryme Yf innocent Why then do I stand at this wofull barre of Iustice pleading if not for lyfe at least for Liberty LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Although these your molitions and endeauours Michâ—as may seeme to proceede from a feruour and zeale Yet I feare this your zeale is branded with those words of S. Paul Aemulationem Dei habent sed non secundum scientiam Since diuers Men haue certaine impetuosityes and violent straynes of Nature which because in their owne priuate conceats they meane well they feare not to guild ouer with the fayre title of Christian zeale Againe Michâ—as wheare you seeke to sheyld your attempts vnder the example of the Apostles your mistaking heare is ouer grosse since they preached the incontaminated and vnspoted fayth of Christ and weare therefore not only excusable but euen warranted by the Holy Ghost Whereas you do teach a religion mixted with diuers errours and humane Inuentions and therefore farre different from that first planted by the Apostles MICHAEAS My Lord. What colours soeuer of disgrace and contumely may in an other Mans eye be layed vpon theese my actions yet to my selfe I am best priuy that they proceeded from my sole desire of aduancing the fayth of Christ and from the bent of a strong affection and loue towards hym Amor meus pondus meum illo feror quocunque feror Which loue and promptitude ought to be so intense and vehement as that indeede it cannot transgresse any bounds within which it may seeme to be limited And therefore I heare hold it an extreame to seeke in these actions to auoid the Extreame where the Excesse if any such can be putteth on the nature of the Meane O my Lord when the Apostle did write those fiery words Praedica Verbum insta oportunè importunè argue obsecra increpa c. No doubt he taught vs thereby that in the preaching of the true Christian fayth we should performe it with all improperation speedines and alacrity not loosing the tyme in any ceremonious delayes Now my Lord where you say that the fayth taught by me is different from the fayth first planted by the Apostles I hereto answere though most breifly since this tyme is not capable of any long Discourse Yf that Christian Religion wherewith Rome was first cultiuated tilled by the labours of the Apostles did neuer since that time to this day suffer the least change in any dogmaticall materiall poynt Then followeth it ineuitably that our present Catholick ReligioÌ„ is the same which was preached by the
Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh For our Sauiour being at his last suffer did then first institute it when â—e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud saying This is my body This is my Bloud c. With reference to which institution the Apostle calleth the table vpon which this sacrifice is made _____ to wit an Altar being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying Sacrifice But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof Some few places among infinit I will heare select first then we find S Austin thus to say Quid gratius osserriaâ—t sâ—scipi possit quam câ—râ— sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri What can be offered vp or accepted more thankfully then the flesh of our sacrifiâ— being made the body of our Priest Chrysostome thus wryteth Per id tempus Angeli Sacerdoti assident c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces and the place neare vnto the Alâ—â—r is full of qâ—ears of Angells in illius honorem qui inâ—molatur by reason of the honour of hym who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp which thing we may fully beleiue vel extanto illi sacrificio quod iunc peragitur in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene Dominus praeoccupans impetum iudeorum c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes being both Priest and Lambe made hymselfe a sacrifice But thou demandest of me when this did happen Euen then when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate and his bloud to drink Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth Quid est tam sacrilegum quam altaria â—ei in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis frangere radre 〈…〉 e in quïbus vot a Populi membra Christi partata sâ—ni c What is so sacrilegious as to breake or scrape or to remoue and take away the Altâ—â—s of God vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered in the which the vowes of the People and the members of Christ are borne And further the said Father Quid est altari nisi sides corporis sanguints Christi What is the Altar but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ S. Ambrose Etsi nunc Christus non videatur offerre ipse tamen â—ffertur in terris cum corpus eius offertur And againe Cum Sacrisicamus Christus est presens Christus immolatur When we do sacrifize Christ is present Christ is sacrifized or immolated Ephrem Quid scrutaris inscrutabilia c Why dosâ— thou search into things not to be searched after c. Be thou faythfull and innocent and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord with a most full fayth being assured that thou dost eate the whole Lambe Cyprian Caena disposita inter Sacramentales epuâ—as c. The supper being prepared the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats And the Lambe which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table being consâ—med the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate Tertulian and Dionisius make frequent mention of Altars and consequently of Sacrifice To conclude this passage as auoyding prolexity Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words Venite Pontifices Sacerdotes qui praeciosum corpus sanguinem meum quoâ—die immolastis Come hither youâ— hâ—â—fe Pryests and other Pryests who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud Now M. Vice Chancelour in regard of the perspicâ—ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other â—athers of the Primatiue Church heare through br 〈…〉 y preteâ—nitted It is the lesse wonder that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin For to omit that the Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose with this very phraze Massam 〈…〉 ere vsed by vs Pryests at this very day do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall Veteres illos video c. I do see that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord. Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing then either Christ did ordayne or the nature of the Gospell would suffer And hereupon it is that Caluin in an other place thus chargeth the Fathers The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord by adding of Sacrifice vnto it Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only who liued either in the midest or towards the end of the Primatiue Church First because they are deliuered without exception of the Fathers in generall Secondly by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles with the said doctrine of sacrifice Thus consorting hearto we find Sebastianus Francus an eminent Protestant to vse theese words Statim post Apostolos omnia inuersa sunt c. Presently after the Apostles departure all things were inuerted c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transfâ—rmata est and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice But Hospinian that famous Protestant useth higher in tyme thus confessing I am tum primo illo seculo viuentibus adhuc Apostolts c. Even in the very first age the Apostles yet liuing the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament meaning touching the â—athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist Then about Baptisme withdrawing Men from the first former thereof Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse touching the doctrine of Sacrifice VICEC-HANCELOVR It lâ—tle preiudizeth vs Michaas who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse For seing it is granted both by vs and you Papists that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour the difference is great and subiect euen to a vulgar iudgment For we grant with you that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against by other Ortodoxall Fathers Thus for exemple did Austin Ierome and Epiphanius wryte against Origen teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued against Tertullian denying second Mariadges against Cyprian mantayning Rebaptization Now heare wee grant that such particular Fathers might and did
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef