agreed about this point without any doubting Or if there were any doubt it was on the Papists side rather then on ours because they require not true faith to make a man a member of the Church but onely the outward profession of beleefe Yea the Pope may be head of the Church though he beleeue not with his heart And therfore it may not seeme strange to vs that a Iesuited Priest in Wisbich castle should affirme That one that was no Christian might be Pope of Rome But such a glorious title of the necessitie of faith maketh a goodly shew to the ignorant yet let no man deceiue himselfe herewithall For this faith which the Papists in words so magnifie is not that beleef in Iesus Christ whereby a Christian man resting on him for pardon of his sinne is iustified but onely an agreeing to the truth of Scripture So that a man may be full of this their faith and yet be euerlastingly damned A. D. §. 2. This ground is set downe by S. Paul himselfe who saith Sine fide impossibile est placere Deo without faith it is vnpossible to please God The same is confirmed by S. Augustine who saith Constat neminem ad veram posse peruenire beatitudinem nisi Deo placeat Deo neminem placere posse nisi per sidem Fides namue est bonorum omnium fundamentum Fides est humanae salutis initium Sine hac nemo ad filiorum Dei consortium peruenire potest quia sine ipfa nec in hoc seculo quis quam iustificationis consequitur gratiam nec in futuro vitam posside bit aeternam It is certaine that none can come to true hap pinesse vnlesse he please God and that none can please God but by faith For faith is the foundation of all good things Faith is the beginning of mans saluation Without this none can come to the fellowship of the children of God because without this neither doth any in this world obtaine the grace of iustification neither shall â—e in the next possesse eternall life Thus saith S. Austen A. W. Well might this whole chapter haue bene spared especially since your proofe is no more direct for your purpose For Saint Paule in that place speaketh of a true iustifying faith which presupposeth a beleefe of all things knowne to be reuealed by God and requireth that a man should not onely acknowledge God to be a rewarder of them that come vnto him that is beleeue in him but also that he should rest vpon him as vpon such a one without which questionlesse no man can please God though he assent neuer so stedfastly to the truth of those and such like points But if you will needs expound the Apostle of assent onely I must put you in mind that by this place you can proue necessitie of faith no farther then for the beleeuing of those two points he specifieth That God is and That he is a rewarder of them that come vnto him Indeed whosoeuer doubts of these particulars thus declared in Scripture can neither be saued nor please God but it doth not follow hereupon that therefore there is a necessitie of faith to the beleeuing of other matters many whereof haue no dependance vpon either of these A. D. §. 3. And the same might be confirmed out of other Scriptures and Fathers but that the matter is cleare enough A. W. The first of these places Rom. 2. is I take it misquoted by the Printer 2. for 3. In the second there is not one word of faith the Apostle there labouring to conuince both Gentiles and Iewes of sin against God by the breach of the law of nature Moses The other two are to be vnderstood of true iustifying faith which must needs be more then assenting to the truth of that which God speaketh as the very phrase of beleeuing in Iesus Christ proueth which cannot with any likelihood of reason be takeÌ„ for giuing credit to those things which are spoken by or of our Sauiour Christ It is one thing to beleeue that God is Credere Deum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 another thing to beleeue in God Credere in DeuÌ„ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 though the latter alwayes imply the former and the former sometimes the latter Irenaeus hath not a syllable of the necessitie of faith in the place which you quote and where he speakes of it he onely shewes it was necessary that God should reueale his truth by his Word which was his Sonne because by the light of naturall reason all things necessary to saluation could not be found out This knowledge Irenaeus tyeth to the Scriptures Had it not bene better for you to haue spared these needlesse allegations in a matter that was out of question A. D. §. 4. Onely this I will adde that when the Scriptures do require faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation the common tradition of Councels and Fathers do interprete not onely that there is a positiue precept of faith for if it were but a positiue precept ignorance might excuse in some case but that at least some kind of faith is necessaria necessitate medij that is to say is ordained as a necessary means without which no man can attaine saluation in any case and that in this matter si quis ignorat ignorabitur if any man by ignorance do not know he shall not be knowne as S. Paul speaketh A. W. This interpretation of the Scriptures meaning in requiring faith as a thing absolutely necessary to saluation is altogether vnnecessary For who knowes not that there can be no saluation without that which is absolutely necessary therunto Therefore it was more then enough to name the common tradition of Councels and Fathers But such gay termes make a goodly shew in the eies of the simple But I pray tel me what haue you got by this learned interpretation Is there any Christian man so ignorant as to deny that some kind of faith is ordained as a necessary meanes without which men cannot attaine to saluation in any case Sure this can neither hurt vs who acknowledge faith to be necessary and if you speake of iustifying faith altogether sufficient to iustification nor helpe you who allow no faith but that which depends vpon the authoritie of the Church But the Councels and Fathers say that kind of faith is necessary What of that Do they therefore hold it necessary to saluation for a man to beleeue whatsoeuer the Church shall teach though without the warrant of Scripture Can a man in no case attaine to saluation without this faith May not the very reading of Scripture without any ministery of man be a meanes by the worke of Gods spirit in his heart to breed true faith to iustification and saluation The necessitie of faith is double First concerning faith as you take it for an assent it is not possible for any man to be
Leo faith that is true is a strong bulwarke to which faith nothing may be added by any man from which nothing may be taken because vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one baptisme Is it not euident that he speakes of the points of faith that are to be beleeued For to them may a man adde I speake of power not of lawfulnesse from them may he take wheras the qualitie of faith seated in the soule is free from all such danger The learned father had found by experience that hereticks from time to time tooke vpon them to diminish and augment the faith of the Church that is the articles of religion and therefore denieth them to haue any faith that hold not firmly and onely the truth of doctrine according to the faith of the Church agreeable to Scripture A. D. §. 3. Omni studio saith S. Hierome Laborandum est primùm ocurrere in fidei vnitatem We must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith A. W. Ieroms testimonie wherein either the printer or you reade vnitatem for vnitate which is also the word in the text is to the same purpose that Leos was There are saith Ierome many winds of doctrine and by their blast when the waues are raised men are caried hither and thither in an vncertaine course and with diuers errors then follow the words you alledge Therefore we must labour with all diligence first to meete in the vnitie of faith then in the same vnitie to haue the knowledge of the sonne of God Which last point is added because of Sabellius who denied the distinction of the persons and against whom Ierome speaketh professedly in that chapter as also against Arius Macedonius and Eunomius about the holy Ghost and our Sauiour Christ A. D. §. 4. Hanc fidem saith Irenaeus ecclesia in vniuersum mundum disseminata diligenter custodit quasi vnam domum inhabitans similiter credit ijs quasi vnam animam habens vnum cor consonanter haec praedicat docet cradit quasi vnum possidens os Nam quamuis in mundo dissimiles sint loquelae tamen virtus traditionis vna eadem est This faith the Church spread ouer the whole world doth diligently keepe as dwelling in one house and doth belieue in one like manner those things to wit which are proposed for points of faith as hauing one soule and one heart and doth preach and teach and deliuer by tradition those things after one vniforme manner as possessing one mouth For although there be diuers and different languages in the world yet the vertue of tradition is One and the same Thus saith this Father By whose words we may vnderstand not onely that there is but one faith but also how it is said to be one which might seeme not to be one considering there are so many points or articles which we beleeue by our faith and so many seuerall men who haue in them this faith yet One saith this Father it is because the whole Church doth beleeue those points in one like manner That is to say because the beliefe of one man is in all points like and nothing different from the beliefe of another or because euery faithfull man beleeueth euery point or article for one and the like cause or for mall reason to wit because God hath reuealed it and deliuered it to vs by his Catholicke Church to be beleeued For which reason euery one should beleeue whatsoeuer he beleeueth as a point of Christian faith A. W. Irenaeus as the two former speaketh of the articles of religion many wherof he had recited in the next chapter before whereupon he infers the words you set downe The Church saith he hauing receiued this doctrine or preaching of this faith though it be spread ouer the whole world keepes it diligently c. And this your selfe acknowledge in these words To wit which are proposed for points of faith whereby you expound that which Irenaeus said The Church beleeues those things which is all one with his former words in sense This faith the Church holds So doth Feuardentius one of your learnedst Fryers vnderstand Irenaeus telling vs that he sets the consent of all Churches as a brasen wall that cannot be ouerthrowne against hereticks Of the same things saith Feuardentius they thinke beleeue write and teach the same By this place it is manifest that you take faith as it is a qualitie because you distinguish the points we beleeue from our faith by which we beleeue and so speaking of faith in that sense neuer a one of your proofes is either plaine or certaine But let vs see how you interprete Irenaeus He saith The whole Church doth beleeue alike meaning that all beleeue the same things not that the habit by which they beleeue is of like force like strength in euery particular Church or man which neither belongs to his purpose nor is true The intention or inward strength euen of the Catholick faith may be greater in one mā saith Domingo à Soto then in another and according to that increase our faith Therefore your former reason which you giue why faith is said to be one namely because the beleefe of one man is in all points like the beleefe of another must be vnderstood of likenesse in regard of the articles they beleeue not of any equalitie in the habit or qualitie it selfe and in that sense onely doth Irenaeus say that faith is one Which saith he no man by his eloquence maketh greater no man by his weaknes in speaking of it lesse We see saith Feuardentius that Irenaeus vehemently vrgeth the vnitie of doctrine and consent of faith which we affirmed to be one of the notes of the true Church Therefore whereas you said of Irenaeus that he affirmes faith to be one because the whole Church doth beleeue those things points of faith in one like manner you mistake his meaning and auow that which is vntrue It is great pitie but that such as you are coming in the name and by the authority of the Church should haue absolute credit giuen to that you teach without doubting or examining it at all Your second reason why faith is said to be one neither agrees with Irenaeus meaning as appeares by that which hath bene alreadie said and in the latter part is false too for both it is a fansie of yours that God hath deliuered it to vs by the Catholicke Church since the Prophets Apostles and Ministers are not the Catholicke Church but members of it the last all of them seuerally and ioyntly subiect to many errors though not fundamentall And the reason of beleeuing is simply and onely the authoritie and will of God made knowne to vs by the ministerie of men the holy Ghost enlightening our vnderstanding and enclining our hearts to beleeue But
excused in your iudgement by ignorance concerning any positiue commaundement of God but out of doubt there are many points of truth reuealed by God onely as positiue not as such meanes to saluation that without the beleefe of them a man cannot be saued Adde hereunto that a Christian may be ignorant of many points held by the Church and that by negatiue ignorance because he could neuer come where he might heare that the Church beleeued such and such things It is therefore an vnreasonable thing to condemne all ignorance for heresie and a most vncharitable conceit to cast all into hell fire that beleeue not in euery point as the Church generally doth yea though they know what the Church mainteines be of a contrarie mind Your proofe which is a comparison of likenesse or equality betwixt infidelitie in denying all Christian religion and heresie in not beleeuing some points of it is a great deale too weake Similitudes argue indeed but rather by way of illustration then proofe And there is no equalitie betwixt denying all and doubting of some The former absolutely ouerthrowes true religion the latter onely misconceiues some points leauing the grounds of truth vntouched and beleeuing them as most certaine A. D. § 6. Fourthly I may confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers First of S. Athanasius in his creed which is commonly knowne and approoued of all Quicunque saith he vult saluus esse ante omnia opus est vt teneat Catholicam fidem quam nisi quisque integram inuiolatamque seruauerit absque dubio in aeternum peribit Whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is needfull that he hold the Catholicke faith which vnlesse euerie one doe keepe entire and vnviolate without doubt he shall perish euerlastingly A. W. If the ancient writers should affirme a thing so vnreasonable there were good reason for a man to looke for some proofe of it out of the Scriptures But no doubt we shall finde your citations of their writings as much to the purpose as we haue done your former arguments The first you alleadge is Athanasius in his Creed to which I answer that Athanasius speaks not of all points reuealed by God but of those substantiall matters which are there set downe by him and namely of the Trinitie of persons and Godhead of our Sauiour Iesus Christ This appeares by the last verse of the same Creed where he thus concludeth This is the Catholicke faith which except a man beleeue faithfully he cannot be saued But Athanâ—siuâ— hath not comprehended all points of religion in that Creed for he leaueth out the buriall of our Sauiour Christ vnlesse you will say he put his going downe into hell for it neither doth he require in that place any other point as necessary to be beleeued to saluation but those onely that he there reciteth which must be kept entire and vnuiolate of euery man that will be saued A. D. §. 7. Qui sunt in sacris literis eruditi saith Saint Basil ne vnam quidem sillabam diuinorum dogmatum prodi sinunt sed pro istius defensione si opus est nullum non mortis genus libenter amplectuntur Those that are well instructed in holy Writ doe not suffer one sillable of diuine doctrine to be betraied or yeelded vp but for the defence thereof if need be doe willingly embrace any kinde of death A. W. That of Basil is lesse to the purpose For first he saith nothing of any doctrine propounded by the Church or of your vnwritten traditioÌ„s but only of the Scriptures And how makes this for the beleeuing whatsoeuer the Church wil deliuer without which in your iudgement faith cannot be one or entire Secondly he speakes not of all ignorant men whose faith vpon paine of damnation you will haue entire concerning euery point but of those onely that are learned in the holy Scriptures or at the most so farre as they are learned in them I astly what saith he of these but that which we alwaies require that a christian should not suffer any sillable of true doctrine to be betraied This makes against you who rest wholly vpon Popes and Councils and by that meanes oftentimes betray the truth of God manifested in the Scripture yea so farre are you from mainteining euery sillable of it with hazard of your liues that you doe what you can for shame to destroy it all You Papists depriue the people of them altogether at least for their priuate reading howsoeuer your Pope Pius 4. makes a shew of permitting it You haue thrust out the Authenticall copies of Hebrew and Greeke and in steed of them authorised a corrupt Latine translation which no man may refuse vpon any pretence though it haue 8000 places as Isidorus Clarius a great learned man of your owne affirmeth in which the sense of the holy Ghost is changed yea Cardinal Hosius blusheth not to write That it were better for the Church if there were no written Gospell extant I omit your blasphemies against the Scriptures whereof I haue spoken otherwhere A. D. §. 8. Nihil periculosius saith Nazianzen his haereticis esse potest qui cum integrè per omnia decurrant vno tamen verbo quasi veneni gutta veram illam ac simplicem fidem dominicam inficiunt Nothing can be more perilous then these heretickes who when they runne vprightly through all the rest yet with one word as with a drop of poyson doe infect that true and sincere faith of our Lord. A. W. What if Gregorie Nazianzen complaine that heretickes which held most points soundly according to truth as Arius Eutyches Macedonius Nestorius and diuers other did were very pernitious to the Church because they did more easily and secretly poyson the truth of doctrine by their heresies Will it follow hereupon that therefore a man cannot be saued vnlesse he beleeue euerie point of truth reuealed by God or that a man hath no faith because his beleefe agrees not in euery small matter with other Christians Remember I pray you we denie not that faith should be entire but that it cannot be auaileable to saluation if in any one point it misbeleeue Thus haue I examined the first part of this your Treatise of Faith which I know not how I should apply to your maine syllogisme implied in your preface when you shew the vse of it in any part thereof I will giue you answer accordingly A. D. CHAP. V. That there must be some means prouided by almighty God by which all sorts of men may learne this faith which is so necessary to saluatioÌ„ A. W. The title of this Chapter is so propounded that your meaning may easily be mistaken There must be say you some meanes prouided May not a man gather by these words that as yet there are no such meanes prouided where as you would haue vs beleeue that God hath already made prouision of fit meanes to that
of the fifth to the end of the sixteenth containe the antecedent or first part of his reason and the proofes thereof The seuenteenth addeth and enforceth the maine conclusion The assumption of the second syllogisme That it is necessary to admit c. is handled from the fourth Chapter to the tenth The proposition of the first syllogisme That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholique Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith is proued by another reason from the ninth Chapter to the thirteenth The assumption of the third syllogisme That those onely which professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church is debated from the twelfth Chapter to the seuenteenth This is the generall frame of the whole Treatise as farre as I am able to conceiue of it Now let vs examine the truth therof Wherein that I may proceed the more orderly and plainely I wil first speake a word or 2. of some matters that seeme fit to be vnderstood ere I answer particularly to the seueral propositiōs What the diuerse significations of this word faith are and how many sorts of faith there be I will inquire as farre as it is needfull for this Treatise in my answer to the first Chapter onely we are now to know that by faith and beliefe this Papist vnderstands the matter or doctrine which is to be beleeued This appeares in the rest of this Preface and namely at these words Fourthly because these few plaine points c as also euery where in his Treatise though sometimes as I will shew in due place he take it otherwise The like I say of the word Church which being diuersly taken in Scripture is here to be restrained to a certaine cōpany of men vpon earth as this Author himself shewes in this Preface at the place aforenamed Now then to answer directly to his principall syllogisme I deny the whole antecedent therof Because it takes some things for a knowne truth which are either false or at least full of doubt As for example that the true Catholique Church is a company of men vpon earth whereas who knowes not that the saints that haue bene are and shal be in all ages are members of the true Catholique Church which consists of them all ioyntly That all the seuerall congregations which hold the true doctrine of the Gospell are one and the same Church A doctrine in his meaning without anie warrant of Scripture as it shall be shewed hereafter That there is authoritie in a certaine company of men vpō earth to require that whatsoeuer they deliuer be held for an vndoubted truth vnder paine of damnation to all that wil not so beleeue them whereas God vseth not the authoritie of men but their ministerie to the begetting of faith in them that shall be saued In particular I denie the proposition because all the Churches in the world may erre either in some one point not fundamentall or some in one some in another And therefore some things may be propounded by the true Church of Christ which notwithstanding are not vpon any authoritie of theirs to be held for true To the proofe of the proposition set downe in the second syllogisme I answer by denying the assumption That it is necessary to admit such authoritie in the Church The reasons of my deniall are 1 That God hath giuen no such authoritie to anie companie of men since the Apostles or besides them who had it seuerally euery one in his owne person 2. That there is no necessitie of anie such authoritie for the saluation of the elect or damnation of the reprobate 3. That the Scriptures are left vnto vs for an absolute rule whereby all things that are to be beleeued must be tried I denie also the assumption of the first principall syllogisme and to the proofe of it contained in the third syllogisme I say further that they which professe the doctrine that the Church of Rome now teacheth in many points are members of the Church of Antichrist vnder the Pope the head thereof But if as you say Those that professe the Romane faith are the true Catholique Church how ignorantly and absurdly do your Monkes of Bourdeaux write in their solemne profession of religion where they say that the holy visible catholique and Apostolike Church dispersed ouer the whole world hath communion in faith manners with the Church of Rome If the Catholique Church haue communion with the Church of Rome sure the Catholique Church and the Church of Rome are not all one A. D. §. 4. Vpon which points when he had heard my discourse he desired me for his better remembrance to set downe in writing what I had said The which I had first thought to haue done briefly and to haue imparted it onely to him but by some other friends it was wished that I should handle the matter more at large they intending as it seemed that it might not only do good to him but to others also that should haue need of it as well as he Of which sort of men standing in this need as I could not considering their miserable case but take great pitie so I was easily moued especially at my friends request to be willing to do my endeuour which might be for their reliefe and succour and to take any course which might turne to their helpe and profite A. W. The title of your booke professeth breuitie here you say that you had thought to set downe your discourse briefly but haue handled the matter more at large Either your Title or your Preface is to blame Your Title is iustified afterward where you say that your course of writing is very briefe and compendious Papists talke of pitie who without mercie or conscience wold haue murdred so many thousāds by treason as they thought haue sent them almost quicke to hell soules and bodies together It is not anie pitie of vs but your slauery to the Pope and proud conceit of I know not what merite with hope of making your part strong for rebellion or massacre that drawe from you these goodly treatises A. D. §. 5. Now of all other courses which haue bene and might be vndertaken that which in my speech I did chuse as most expedient for him with whom I did conferre seemed best also for me to prosequute in this my writing for the benefite of him and others and this for foure reasons A. W. I know not what he was with whom as you say you did conferre but I am sure his iudgement was at the most but indifferent good if such a course as begs the question would be any way liked of him You vndertake to shew That it is necessary to admit an infallible authority in the true Catholique Church which you expound to be A companie of men vpon earth VVhat Protestant is there of any knowledge but vnderstands that by Catholique Church we meane ordinarily not any companie in
Ambrose to enquire after the faith of the Church and that especially in which Church if Christ be a dweller it is doubtlesse to be made choise of But if the people be vnfaithful if an heretical teacher deforme the dwelling the communion of heretickes is to be auoided the congregation must be shunned And a little after If there be any Church that refuseth the faith and holds not the foundation of the Apostles preaching it is to be left lest it taint vs with some spot of vnbeliefe or vnfaithfulnesse Neither will it serue the turne that you referre vs to that which is generally holden by the Church for both the generall faith depends vpon the particular beliefe of the Church or Pope of Rome and is not to be taken for truth because it is generally receiued but because it agrees with the Romane faith as we learned before of your Monkes of Bourdeaux who make the Catholique Church to haue communion with the Church of Rome as the fountaine of truth and of greater authoritie in their iudgement then the Catholicke Church But let vs admit that you desire of beleeuing whatsoeuer is generally holden by the Church I am half afraid this conceit be it neuer so strong wil not procure the quietnes you promise vs. The causes of my feare are these two First I may doubt of such a point as is not yet determined by the Church for example I make question of the Popes authority aboue Councels or theirs aboue him How shall I most certainly be instructed in the truth of this question Enquire say you and find what is generally holden by the Church What if the Doctors of your Church cannot agree about this point That they cannot it appeares by your owne doubting where you make it questionable whether the Pope alone or the Pope with a general Councell be free from error And Bellarmine is faine to take a great deale of paines in answering the arguments of diuers Papists some of them equall to himselfe for learning iudgement and authoritie who make the Pope subiect to generall Councels But of this in due place Say it were generally agreed on Could I thereby be most certainly instructed what is truth in this point May not all saue the Pope be deceiued and perhaps he to without the aduice and assent of a general Councell at least if he haue not in his consistory vpon good deliberation resolued of the matter What shall it auaile me then to know that generally it is thought the Pope is aboue any Councell Supposing this point were generally held to be true though indeed as I said before it is denyed both by priuate men by 2. councels that of Basil the other of Constance which deposed two Popes Iohn the three and twentieth and Benedict the thirteenth And Bellarmine saith that to this day it remaines in question euen among the Catholikes Well put case all men thought as Bellarmine and all such Popish parasites would haue it what were I the nearer as long as there can be no certainty of truth in your opinion where nothing is iudicially determined by a Pope Coūcell The second resō of my doubt is that I know not how to find out either easily as you say euery man may or certainly though with some paines what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in al particular points wherof I doubt Shall I looke into the confessions of seuerall Churches Where are they to be found Shall I trauail into euery particular country to learne what they hold of this or that poynt What assurance can I get hereby but from some speciall men And it is a venture but they will not all agree in euery point What remaines Forsooth that which is all in all I must beleeue Watsō or Clarke or Blackwel the archpriest or if al these will not content me Gerrard Tesmond Hall or without all doubting Garnet the superior of the Iesuites who questionlesse is as void of error as the Pope himselfe Haue I not trow you a sound foundation to build my faith vpon when I haue the word of these equiuocating traitours Priests and Iesuits And yet this is the most I can haue in this case if I be a man vnlearned especially vnable to reade Is it possible any man should be so senslesse as to hazzard his euerlasting saluation vpon such an vncertainty to beleeue he knowes not what because a Priest or a Iesuit tels him that the Church generally doth so beleeue But what if it fall out as it may do that the Priests perswade him the Church holds one thing and the Iesuites affirme it maintaines the contrary how shall a poore soule either settle his iudgement or quiet his conscience Quid sequar aut quem Were it not a directer and certainer course to hold nothing for truth in religion but that which is proued to vs by plaine testimonies of Scripture or certaine consequence of reason drawne from principles euidently exprest or apparētly contained in the knowne word of God The difficulties of translation and interpretation shal be handled in their places which also as I shewed ere while accompany al your writings of priuate men Popes or Councels Now then if their be many particular points of cōtrouersies whereof I may doubt which are not resolued of by any iudgement of the Church nor agreed vpon by the learned of your owne side if I cannot certainly know what is generally held for truth by the Church but as I giue credit to the report of a Priest or Iesuit whom I know to be partiall in the matter because he is one of the Popes vassals subiect to erre because he is a priuate man likely enough to lye because he maintaines equiuocation what madnesse were it for me to forbeare searching and studying of the Scriptures where I am sure the truth of God is to be found and to lose my time and labour in seeking what the Church generally holds and that of those men who perhaps vnderstand not what is held but as they haue bene informed by others who may themselues haue mistaken the true meaning of the Church in that it holds A. D. §. 10. Of which points also If they be desirous they may haue sufficient authority and reason yeelded by the learned of the same Church though they should not so desire reason to be yeelded that without reason be giuen they would not beleeue at all or as grounding their faith vpon the reason giuen sith Christian beliefe ought onely to be grounded vpon the authoritie of God speaking by the mouth of the Church who ought to be beleeued in all matters without giuing any reason A. W. There is no sufficient authoritie for a man to ground his faith vpon but the truth of God reuealed Whatsoeuer is taught without that authoritie is as easily contēned as alleadged Therfore Iustine wils him that would be setled in
exposition of that which is read giue me some reason why reading should not be more sufficiēt since he that readeth may easier vnderstand and better weigh that he readeth then he that doth onely heare an other reade But of this point I shall haue occasion to say more hereafter Now for the second point that we cannot heare vnlesse some lawfully sent that is as you vnderstand it vnlesse some sent by the authority of the Church do preach vnto vs first how shal this warrant the Apostles preaching of which S. Paul here speaketh For who knowes not that they were sent immediatly by our Sauiour not by any ordinary course in the Church Secondly it seemes you fortet what is written in the Ecclesiasticall histories of a captiue maid that conuerted the queene of Iberia she the king he his countrey What is recorded of Aedesius Frumentius by whom the Indians were brought to the knowledge of the Gospell How Alexander Bishop of Ierusalem and Theoctistus Bishop of Caesarea defend Origens preaching publickly when as yet he was not allowed by the Church for a minister Which fact of his they maintaine by the like examples of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus who had preached without any ordinarie sending And it is verie likely say they that the same hath beene done in other places though we know it not How little care you had of writing plainely any man may guesse by this one sentence wherein this needlesse word infallible is vsed in two diuers senses for certainty of truth where you speake of that we are to beleeue for assurance of beleefe without doubting where you meane faith it selfe A. D. §. 2. Fides saith S. Basile est eorum quae dicta sunt assentiens approbatio sine vlla haesitatione cum animi persuasione de eorum veritate quae Dermunere praedicata sunt Faith is a consenting approbation of those things which are said an vndoubted perswasion of minde of the truth of those things which are preached by the gift of God Fides saith Saint Chrysostome dici non potest nisi circa ea quae non videntur ampliùs quà m circa ea quae videntur certitudinem quis habeat It cannot be called faith vnlesse one be more certaine of those things which are not seene then of those things which are seene The reason whereof the same Saint Chrysostom declareth in an other place saying Superet sensum rationem nostram sermo ipsius Dei nam verbis eius fraudari non possumus sensus verò noster deceptu facillimus est Let Gods word saith he surmount our sense and reason for we can not be deceiued by his words but our sense is most easily deceiued A. W. These testimonies are more for ostentation to shew your learning then for necessitie to confirme a matter not doubted of Yet I must put you in minde that these descriptions and commendations of faith are not brought by the authors to condemne all as cast-awaies that sometimes doubt but to declare what faith is in it owne nature A. D. § 3. Sith therefore our faith is grounded on the word of God reuealed to vs by Iesus Christ our Lord speaking by the mouth of the Church as he saith himselfe Qui vos audit me audit he that heareth you heareth me we ought to receiue the word of faith preached by the true Church not as the word of man but as it is truely the word of God and consequently we must account it a thing most certaine and absolutely infallible A. W. Our Sauiour Christ doth no farther speake by the mouth of the Church then the Church speakes according to the Scripture whom so speaking whosoeuer heareth without doubt he heareth God both because it is the word of God that is spoken and because God hath commaunded vs to heare them that so speake But here againe for a shew the name Church is brought in whereas the testimonie belongs onely to the Apostles if you take it for them that must absolutely be heard without all doubting of that they deliuer and to euery one of them seuerally who doubtlesse is not the Church or else to all Ministers of the gospell from time to time but not without that restraint I mentioned before of speaking agreably to the word If you will stretch the place to other beside the Apostles in that point of being absolutely heard shew some reason why euery Pastor and licensed Preacher may not claime the same priuiledge of being heard and beleeued whatsoeuer he teach But that this is absord it may appeare because our Sauiour Christ foretold that there should come false prophets who alwaies are to be discerned by their doctrine And who is ignorant that the greatest hereticks had many of them lawfull calling in the Churches and yet ranne into monstrous heresies Doth not our Sauiour also will the Iewes to heare the Scribes and Pharisies what absolutely If they will teach their owne deuises saith Austin heare them not do not as they say But what name I Austen Doth not Christ himselfe giue the same charge Take heed and beware of the leuen of the Scribes and Pharises And what is their leuen but their doctrine by the holy Ghosts owne exposition Iansenius Bishop of Gant expounds the place of the Apostles and though he gather from thence the power of the Ecclesiasticall gouernours yet he restraineth it to their inioyning of that which is right Wee are to note saith he how great the authoritie of Ecclesiasticall gouernours is since we must obey them no otherwise then we must Christ when they commaund those things that are right Doe you not see your owne Bishops limitation vpon this verie place you alleage The ancient writers expound the place of the Apostles Your glosse requires deuotion and reuerence to the hearing of Christs Disciples for the reuerence of God whose doctrine principally it is which they deliuer So that they which preach not Christs doctrine cannot looke for so much as reuerence There fore true doctrine is alwaies to be receiued whosoeuer deliuer it whether he be lawfully sent or no and false doctrine neuer though it be preached by a Pope who being no Apostle can shew no charter for his being kept from error though his priue and your flatterie exalt him aboue all saue Peter A. D. CHAP. IIII. That this one infallible faith necessary to saluation must also be entire A. W. Whereas you say obscurely in your title Faith must be entire your meaning is that a Christian must beleeue all things appointed by God propoūded by the Church to be beleeued Wold you not haue said so if you had loued plainnesse What if I should ask you a reason why the title of this Chapter is not set downe in the same forme the rest are Faith is necessary Chap. 1. is one Chap. 2. is infallible Chap. 3. But in this 4. Chap.
in a matter of such weight The conclusion is that howsoeuer it is indeed a sinne and so in it selfe damnable to misbeleeue or not beleeue all and euery thing which God hath reuealed yet a man may be in the state of grace and saluation though he misbeleeue or through ignorance obstinately not beleeue something so reuealed In a word Not right beleeuing is neuer able to depriue a man of saluation but when that we beleeue amisse is a maine point of saluation obstinately not beleeuing onely then shuts vp heauen against vs when either the points we will not beleeue are fundamentall or our refusing to beleeue is against our owne iudgement and conscience If you had no further reach in this Chapter we were of the same mind with you but in propounding the reason of your assertion you bewray a further matter then at the first a man would imagine A. D. §. 2. The reason of this is because euery point of doctrine yea euery word that almightie God hath reuealed and by his Church propounded vnto vs to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued as we may gather out of Saint Marke where when our Sauiour had giuen charge to his Disciples to preach the Gospell to euery creature the which charge he also gaue in Saint Mathew saying Docete omnes gentes c. docentes eos seruare omnia quaecunque mandaui vobis Teach all nations c. teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you he pronounceth indefinitely Qui non crediderit condemnabitur He that shall not beleeue shall be condemned not excepting or distinguishing any one point of doctrine as needlesse to be beleeued or which a man might at his pleasure misbeleeue or doubt of without danger A. W. Your first reason lieth thus If euery point and word reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued then faith must be entire But euery word so reuealed and propounded must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued Therefore faith must be entire The conclusion of this Syllogisme is acknowledged by vs for a certaine truth Faith must be entire but the premisses seeme liable to iust exception For first the antecedent and the consequent of the proposition are all one and so the proofe and that which is proued differ not What is it to say euery word reuealed by God must be beleeued but to affirme that faith must be entire Indeed if the questiō were of faith as it is a quality then the consequent might be inferred vpon the antecedent but since we speake of the things to be beleeued both are one If euery such word must be beleeued then we must beleeue euery such word It is the same faith by which all and by which some is beleeued but as the obiect or things beleeued make a difference which reacheth not to the faith it selfe within the soule Secondly the Assumption though it be true yet doth it containe something that had need to be warily considered First you so couple the reuealing by God and the propounding of a thing to be beleeued by the church as if the latter were no lesse necessary then the former to make a matter of faith wheras al things that God hath reuealed ought to be beleeued whether the Church propoūd them for such or no. For the reason why they are to be beleeued is that they proceed from God who must needs be credited in whatsoeuer he shal say in respect both of his truth in speaking and his authoritie in commaunding obedience But you Papists make the authoritie of the Church the very foundation of our beleefe The Scripture you say is in it selfe the word of God and so worthy of all credit but to vs it is not so but by the authoritie of the Church vpon the credit whereof we take it for the word of God Yea farther you limit faith in particular points by the determination of the Church so that no man shall be bound to beleeue as a point of faith any doctrine neuer so certainly proued out of Scripture vnlesse the Church haue resolued of it that it is true and whatsoeuer is by the Church concluded for true must be acknowledged for such by faith though it be beside or against the Scripture which as Cardinall Cusan is not ashamed nor afraid to say is fitted for the time and diuersly vnderstood So that it may at one time be expounded one way according to the generall current order of the Church and the same order being changed the Scripture also is changed And why should it not if as another Papist saith the holy Scripture take strength and authoritie from the doctrine of the Church and Bishop of Rome The Apostles saith Pighius haue written certaine things not that their writings should be aboue our faith but that they should be vnder it But what should I stand to recite your blasphemies in this kind which are many and monstrous That which is not to day a point of faith shall be one to morrow if it please the Pope to propound it to be beleeued It is farther to be considered in your Assumption that although whatsoeuer God reuealeth is to be beleeued vpō paine of damnation yet a man may be saued without beleeuing euery thing so reuealed alwayes prouided that he do not against his conscience obstinately refuse to acknowledge any truth If our Sauiour haue said that he which beleeueth not all that his Apostles teach shall be condemned then euery word so reuealed and propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation But our Sauiour hath said so Therefore euery word so propounded must be beleeued vnder paine of damnation This is a proofe of your Assumption wherein for the consequence of your proposition I would haue all men vnderstand that although you craftily imply therein a comparison of equalitie betwixt the charge of beleeuing the Apostles and all other Ministers allowed by you whom you call by the name of the Church to deceiue simple people with so glorious a title yet the truth of that proposition depends not thereupon but onely vpon the necessitie of beleeuing that which God hath reuealed It is a certaine truth that God is to be beleeued in all things he hath reuealed by whom soeuer he propound it in this respect the consequence of your proposition is true That if it were damnable not to beleeue the Apostles deliuering that which God had reuealed it is also damnable not to giue credit to Ministers now when they propound that to be beleeued which God hath reuealed because the reason of beleeuing is that God hath reuealed the things that are deliuered But yet here are two differences to be obserued first that it is lesse sinne to doubt of that which any man besides the Apostles deliuers though it be the word of God then to make question of the same matter vttered by the
Apostles because they spake immediatly by the direction of the spirit and therefore could not possibly erre in any point whereas all other men are subiect to error and their doctrine to examination ere it need be credited Secondly we must remember it doth not follow that if our Sauiour said whosoeuer beleeued not the Apostles should be damned then he that beleeues not the Ministers now in all they propound to be beleeued should be therefore liable to condemnatiō I haue stood the more vpon this proposition because the consequence being true may breed an error in the conceit of many if the reason of it be not truly vnderstood Your Assumption or minor is thus to be limited according to that which I before deliuered He that beleeues the Apostles spake immediatly by the inspiration of the spirit of God and yet doubts of the truth of some things they preached cannot without reforming this error be saued because he holds that the holy Ghost may inspire an vntruth No more can he that doth not beleeue they spake by such inspiration For of them our Sauiour hath absolutely said He that despiseth you despiseth me The second limitation is about the things themselues The ignorance of some points deliuered by the Apostles vtterly excludes a man out of heauen some other again may be vnknowne and a man notwithstanding that his ignorance be saued Therefore though our Sauiour except no point nor distinguish betwixt matters of doctrine yet the not beleeuing of some is no farther damnable then a man doth wilfully refuse to beleeue that which he confesseth to be truth in his heart or at the least in which he thinkes the Apostles were deceiued or which he despiseth as needlesse and so condemnes the wisedome of God in propounding it to be beleeued A. D. §. 3. And this not without reason for not to beleeue any one point whatsoeuer which God by reuealing it doth testifie to bee true and which by his Church he hath commaunded vs to beleeue must needs be damnable as being a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will But all points of faith are thus testified by God and commaunded to be beleeued otherwise they be not points of faith but of opinion or some other kinde of knowledge Therefore all points of faith must vnder paine of damnation be beleeued beleeued I say eyther expresly and actually as learned men may doe or implicite and virtually as vnlearned Catholicks commonly doe who beleeuing expresly those articles which euerie one is bound particularly to know doe not in the rest obstinately doubt or hold some errour against the Church but haue a minde prepared to submit themselues in all things to the authoritie of the Church which they are sure is taught and directed by the spirit of God and doe in generall hold for vndoubted truth whatsoeuer the Catholicke or vniuersall Church doth beleeue A. W. Now followeth the second proofe of your assumption in this manner Euerie notable iniurie to Gods veritie and disobedience to his will is damnable But misbeleeuing or absolutely not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is a notable iniurie to Gods veritie and a great disobedience to his will Therefore misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing any one point reuealed by God and propounded by his Church to be beleeued is damnable To let passe this craftie conueyance whereby you still shuffle in the Church whereas without it the matter is as true and the proposition as perfect I answer to your assumption that all misbeleeuing or obstinately not beleeuing is not a notable iniurie to Gods truth nor a great disobedience to his will where it proceeds simply of ignorance and not of wilfulnesse except in such cases as I shewed in the end of the last section which I speake not to excuse any man as if he did not sinne in misbeleeuing or as if there were some sinne not deadly according to your erroneous conceit but onely to distinguish notable iniuries and great disobedience from some kinde of misbeleeuing The conclusion is thus to be conceiued That misbeleeuing is in it selfe damnable not that no man can be saued which misbeleeueth This distinction of beleeuing expresly and implicitly as you terme it confirmes part of that which I haue hitherto said for by your confession there are some points to the beleefe whereof a general faith will not serue the turne but a man must know the particulars and assent actually to the truth of them For example it is not enough for a man to beleeue in grosse that he must be saued by such meanes onely as God hath reuealed and the Church hath propounded to be beleeued but it is absolutely necessarie to saluation that he know what the Church holdeth in this case concerning redemption by our Sauiour Christ and in his heart acknowledge the truth thereof Againe there are many other points which so a man neglect not the meanes to know them may be vnknowne and beleeued onely in generall without danger of damnation by reason of such ignorance Now this generall beleefe is not as you falsely say to be folded vp in the faith of the Church but to be tied to the Scripture all things wherein I acknowledge to be most true and beleeue all points whatsoeuer as they are eyther expressed or contained in Scripture howsoeuer I be ignorant what is true touching perhaps very many particulars To the authoritie of the Church I willingly submit my selfe thus farre as that I hold it a sinfull presumption for me or any man eyther to compare my priuate opinion with the generall iudgement of other Christians especially Ministers or to condemne or suspect that of falshood which they deliuer vnlesse I haue apparent proofe for the one and great likelihood for the other In which cases I set not my owne conceit against the doctrine of the Church but preferre the truth of God before the opinions of men As for any infallible authoritie in the Church vpon supposall of such a certaine direction by the spirit of God I hold it neither for true nor probable as shall appeare hereafter In the meane while I desire the Reader to consider these few testimonies cōcerning the authority of men Other writers saith Austin I reade with this prouiso that be their learning or holinesse neuer so great I will not thinke a matter true because they haue thought so but because they haue bene able to perswade me eyther by other Canonicall writers or by some likely reason In an other place We may not consent to Bishops though they be Catholicke if at any time they be deceiued so that they iudge contrarie to the Canonicall Scripture of God Of necessitie saith Origen must we call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit And this charge Basil layeth vpon vs that when we heare we examine
the points that are deliuered by our teachers and receiue those that are agreeable to the Scriptures and reiect those that are diuers from them Other things that men inuent of their owne head saith Ierome as it were by Apostolicall tradition without the authoritie and witnesse of the Scriptures the word of God smiteth A. D. §. 4. Secondly that man which beleeuing some points should denie others cannot while he doth thus haue one and the same faith which other Christians haue Sith he doth not as Irenaeus requireth to the vnitie of faith beleeeue the points of faith in a like but in a different manner from other Christians That is to say Neither doth he beleeue all the points which they doe neither doth he beleeue those points wherein he doth agree with them for the same reason that they doe that is to say He doth not beleeue those points which he seemeth to beleeue precisely for that God hath reuealed them and by his Church propounded them for if he did sith this reason is common to all points of faith he should assoone beleeue all as any one He hath not therefore I say one and the same faith which other Christians haue who notwithstanding haue the true faith And sith as S. Leo said Nisi vna est fides non est If it be not one faith it is no faith at all It followeth that he that beleeueth not entirely all points of faith hath no faith at all and consequently sith one that hath no faith can no way be saued it is euident that he that beleeuing some articles doth obstinately denie others cannot be saued A. W. Your second reason to prooue that faith must be entire is thus to be framed If faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire then it must be entire But faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire Therefore faith must be entire I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is not absolutely necessarie to saluation that faith should be one in such sort as you imagine There is indeed an absolute necessitie that all men should agree in the beleefe of certaine points without the beleefe whereof there can possibly be no saluation But that there should be such an agreement in all points though it be necessarie positiuely to speake as you doe because Gods truth is in euery particular to be beleeued yet it is not required as a meanes without which a man cannot be saued as I haue already shewed I grant the assumption in that sense you vnderstand being one otherwise I denie it Faith may be one in all points necessary to saluation and yet not entire in beleeuing all things that God hath reuealed To your allegation out of Irenaeus I answered before the exposition you make of it as I then signified in regard of the latter part thereof cannot be drawne out of Irenaeus who speakes not a word of the reason whereupon men beleeue but onely of the principall articles of faith euery where beleeued in regard whereof there was as he saith an vnitie of beleefe Neither is your proofe sufficient if we grant your exposition For a man may beleeue that which he doth beleeue because God hath reuealed it and in that respect haue one faith with other Christians and yet doubt of or denie some other points which are commonly held because he cannot perswade himselfe that they are reuealed by God though it be generally so beleeued I may say the like of matters propounded also by the Church because the decrees thereof are not so plaine but that they may admit diuers senses But I respect not that clause as being a point foisted in by you without any warrant of Scripture or reason Though it be no great matter what you build vpon so slipperie a foundation because it cannot long stand yet perhaps it is not amisse to push it downe presently that it may not continue to make a shew Thus you build He that hath no faith at all cannot be saued But he that beleeues not entirely all points of faith hath no faith at all Therefore he that beleeuing some articles doth obstinately denie any others cannot be saued I denie your assumption A man may doubt of and denie many points as I haue shewed and yet both haue faith and be saued Your proofe to the contrarie out of Leo was answered before Your conclusion is not so large as it should be For you restraine it to obstinately not beleeuing which cannot barre a man from saluation but in those points alone which are necessarie as meanes to bring him to euerlasting life A. D. §. 5. Thirdly to beleeue some points of faith and to denie others or any one is heresie as to denie all is absolute Infidelitie But it is sure euen out of Scripture that Heretickes shall not be saued no more then Infidels For as it is said Qâ—i non credit iam indicatus est he that beleeueth not is alreadie iudged so the Aposile Saint Paule reckoneth heresies among the works of the flesh of all which he doth pronounce Qui talia agunt regnum Dei non consequentur Those which doe such like things shall not attaine the kingdome of God A. W. Hereticall faith is liable to damnation That faith which is not entire is hereticall Therefore that faith which is not entire is liable to damnation I must intreate the Reader to call to minde what I answered before in generall concerning this point about liablenesse to damnation There is no heresie nor error in matter of Religion but it is a sinne and being so makes the partie that doth erre liable to damnation But yet many errors and heresies are of so small moment in comparison of other that hee which holdeth them may notwithstanding such his error or heresie be saued I gaue examples before and will not stand to repeate them So then the proposition is thus farre true and no farther Hereticall faith in matters necessarie to saluation is simply damnable so that he which continueth in such an estate cannot possibly be saued Againe Hereticall faith in any point of Gods truth whatsoeuer of it selfe deserueth damnation yet he that doth erre in some points may be saued else I thinke there are fewe men liuing or euer haue bene that could haue come or shall come to heauen As for the authoritie of the Church it is not of force to make that simply damnable which in it selfe is not so though it much increase the sinne whensoeuer it determineth truly of any point in question You will say Saint Paule reckoneth heresie amongst the works of the flesh So doth he contentions c. yet may a man in ignorance be contentious thinking he doth well and contends for the true faith as he ought to do and for all this contention not depriue himselfe of the interest he hath to the kingdome of heauen in Iesus Christ I deny your assumption A man may be
setting downe what cōditions or properties this rule of faith must haue afterwards by proouing particularly that neither Scripture alone not any natural wit or humane lerning nor priuat spirit can be this rule of faith And finally that this rule which all mē may safely must necessarily follow can be no other but the teaching of the Catholicke Church A. W. It is onely thus farre agreed betwixt vs that there must needs be meanes appointed by Almightie God whereby all sorts of men may come to such a measure of knowledge and faith as is necessarie to saluation not wherby euery man may be infalliblie instructed in all points of religion that he need neuer make more question in any matter of faith though we grant that there is such a meanes prouided by God howsoeuer we in our weaknesse cannot make such vse of it But that we may vnderstand matters aright as we go forward I must intreate the Reader to remember that if all things to come in this your Treatise be sufficiently prooued yet you faile much of your maine purpose For this last Syllogisme is the foundation of all yet behinde concerning one of the principall points which you propoūded in the beginning viz. That it was necessarie to admit such an infallible authoritie in the Catholicke Church Now the proposition of this Syllogisme I haue denied and refuted Therefore if the assumption therof were most certainly true as it is vndoubtedly false yet could your conclusion be nothing sure because the syllogisme failes in the proposition but let vs see how you prooue the assumtion If neither the Scripture alone nor naturall wit or learning nor a priuate spirit can be such a rule then God hath prouided no such rule vnlesse we admit an infallible authority in the Catholicke Church But neither the Scripture alone nor naturall wit or learning nor a priuate spirit can be such a rule Therefore God hath prouided no such rule vnlesse we admit an infallible authority in the Catholicke Church This proposition is not set downe by you in plaine termes but necessarily and certainly gathered out of the course you hold in the fiue next chapters wherein the assumption and conclusion are manifestly contained that in the foure former this in the tenth The consequence of your proposition is verie weake For what if none of these seuerally be such a rule may not all these together be Sure there is nothing brought by you to the contrary But if all these faile what can you say to the contrarie why a generall Councell without the Popes authority should not be such a rule Or to goe farther doe you not thinke that the Pope alone may serue the turne And yet in your opinion neither the Councell nor the Pope seuerally considered are the Church Therefore it seemes there may be such a rule though there be no companie of men that hath any such authoritie as you speake of Secondly your consequence is but feeble in an other respect For it presumeth that if there be such an authoritie there is such a rule Whereas many thousands in the world may be vtterly without meanes of knowing that there is such an authoritie and so the meanes as in regard of them insufficient Adde hereunto that although it were possible and easie for euery man to know and see the Church yet the meanes might be insufficient because there is no certaine reason to perswade them that they must beleeue this Church in all things so that still according to your doctrine the Lord must needs haue failed much in his prouidence though he haue giuen this authority to the Church because he hath prouided no meanes whereby euery man may certainly be perswaded that the Church hath such authoritie Will you say He hath appointed that all men should beleeue the Church What can that helpe when he hath not prouided meanes for all men to know that they must beleeue her Must we not come now to a priuate spirit that is to the teaching of Gods spirit in the hearts of particular men And if this must needs be in this one case how prooue you it may not be so in other To answer we must beleeue the Church is to beg the question against all reason A. D. CHAP. VI. VVhat conditions or properties must be found in the rule of Faith THis rule which Almightie God hath prouided as a sufficient meanes to direct men to the knowledge of true faith necessarie to saluation must haue three conditions or properties First it must be certaine and infallible for otherwise it cannot be a sufficient foundation whereupon to build faith which as is proued before is absolutely infallible Secondly it must be such as may be certainly and plainly knowne of all sorts of men For if to any sort it could not be knowen or not certainly knowen it could not be to them a rule or meanes whereby they might direct themselues to the certaine knowledge of the true faith Thirdly it must be vniuersall that it may not onely make vs know certainly what is the true faith in some one or two or moe points but absolutely in all points of faith For otherwise it were not a sufficient meanes whereby we may attaine to an entire faith which integritie of faith is necessarie to saluation in such wise as hath bene declared and prooued before A. W. Your assumption had three points and as it were parts making three seueral sentences or propositions which for the more plainnesse I will handle seuerally as you haue done First of the Scripture The rule of faith must be certaine and infallible certainly and plainly knowen and vniuersall The Scripture alone is not so Therefore the Scripture alone is not the rule of faith Ere I come to answer your Syllogisme giue me leaue to shew how obscurely and doubtfully these properties are deliuered by you First infallible is taken in two diuers senses Faith must be infallible The rule must be infallible In the former we must needs expound infallible not being deceiued by holding any errour or nor doubting of that which it beleeueth In the latter what can infallible signifie but either that which is certainly true or that which may not be doubted of Is it plaine dealing to speake so doubtfully Or is it a good kinde of reasoning to runne the ring and to dispute in a circle as they speake in the Schooles Before you would prooue the infallibility of faith by the infallibility of the word of God which it must beleeue now you conclude the infallibility of the rule from the infallibility of faith Is not this to trifle rather then to reason Would you not laugh at vs if we should dispute thus The elect cannot fall away because the holy Ghost that vpholds them is true God The holy Ghost is true God because the elect whom he vpholds cannot fall away View your selfe in this glasse Secondly what would a reasonable man conceiue by these words The rule must be
certainly and plainly knowen but that euerie man must be able to perceiue that this or that is the rule What is your meaning That the rule must not be hard to be vnderstood Thirdly your terme of vniuersalitie is not so plaine as it might haue bene because it is commonly I thinke euery where in this Treatise saue in this one chapter taken for that which belongs to all persons times and places no where for all points of doctrine no not there where you speake of the entirenesse of faith And I pray you tell me why as you apply infallibilitie to faith and the rule you do not in like sort deale with entirenesse and say that the rule must be entire because faith must be entire I come now to your proposition which I denie because it is not necessarie that the rule of faith should be such as may be certainly and plainly knowen that is vnderstood in euery point It is sufficient if it may be vnderstood in those points that are necessarie to saluatiō Who would say that he which is to measure out timber in length had not a perfect rule to that purpose hauing an ordinarie Carpenters rule because there are vpon the rule some figures circles triangles squares and such like the vse wherof he vnderstandeth not If you runne backe to the entirenesse of faith I will follow you for a refutation of my answer thereunto and a founder proofe of that your conceit A. D. CHAP. VII That Scripture alone cannot be this rule of Faith A. W. The title of this chapter as it shall appeare by and by agreeth not with the discourse in the chapter and besides propoundeth very craftily a matter which is no way in question betwixt vs and the Papists For there is no Protestant diuine that thinks the Scripture alone that is without the ministerie of man a sufficient meanes for the saluation or instruction of all men to which the fond example of this Author tendeth where he talketh of locking vp an vnlearned man that cannot read alone without any helpe but a Bible A. D. §. 1. Out of these former grounds foure conclusions The first conclusion is that Scripture alone especially as it is by Protestants translated into the English tongue cannot be this rule of faith This I prooue First for that these translations faile in the first condition that is to say they are not infallible as the rule of faith must be for neither were the Scriptures written in this language immediately by the holy Ghost neither were the translators assisted by the same holy Ghost infallibly Infallibly I say that is in such sort as it were vnpossible that they should erre in any point Sith therefore the translators as being but men may erre To say nothing of that which by Gregory Martin is prooued and by the often changes of new and variable translations is shewed that some haue erred how can a man and especially an vnlearned man who hath not sufficient meanes learning nor leisure to compare the translations with the prime authenticall originall how can I say such a man be infallibly sure that this particular translation which he hath doth not erre And if in some places it erre how can he be infallibly sure that in those places which do seeme to fauour that sect which he followeth it doth not erre vnlesse he wil admit an vnfallible authoritie in the Church to assure vs that such or such a translation doth not erre in any point of which authoritie I shall speake more hereafter A. W. The Scripture is in it selfe such a rule or meanes and no doubt so made effectuall to some by reading without any other outward helpe of man but this is not the ordinarie course that God hath appointed for the instruction of the people in the knowledge of his truth Therefore if at any time we say that the Scripture alone is the rule of faith by Alone we seuer it from the traditions and authoritie of men not from their ministerie and ascribe vnto it sufficiencie in respect of the matter to be beleeued not simply of the meanes to bring men to beleefe The assumption which you should prooue as also the title of your chapter professeth is this That the scripture alone cannot be the rule of faith By what reason do you prooue it Truly by none at all but leauing the question you dispute against the English translation Wherefore I take it for granted that in your conscience you acknowledge the sufficiency of the Scripture to direct vs in all matters and questions of faith And thereupon I inferre that the infallible authoritie which you would tie to the Church is needlesse because without it there is a sufficient rule of faith prouided by Almightie God whereby euerie man learned and vnlearned may be instructed in all points of faith what is to be holden for true Hence it followeth that the first of your maine points set downe in the preface is false and so your whole Treatise void vntrue You tell vs indeed afterward that some of your reasons against the English translation haue also force to prooue that the Scripture alone in what language soeuer is no sufficient meanes but you neither shew vs which those reasons are nor are there any of sufficient weight to that purpose Let them iudge that will read my answer But first I will propound certaine testimonies of the Fathers concerning the infallibility sufficiency of the Scriptures VVhen heresie saith one hath once gotten footing in the Church there can be no refuge for Christians which desire to know the true faith but onely to the Scriptures And afterward Christ commaunds that they that desire to haue certaintie of faith flie to no other thing but to the Scriptures In the same place three seuerall times in one halfe page he assureth all men that in the most dangerous daies of Antichrist there will be no way to know the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures If certaintie of faith knowledge of the true Church may be had from the Scriptures in time of heresie cannot else where be had out of doubt the Scripture is certaine and infallible and so consequently the rule of faith Irenaeus tels vs that the Gospell is left to vs in the Scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith Tertullian cals to Hermogenes for proofe of that he said out of the Scriptures and warneth him and his complices to beware of the woe that is threatned against them which adde to or take from the Scriptures If they bring any doctrine that is not written therein Origen is ours euery where in this question allowing not any expositions or senses but those that are warranted by the Scriptures requiring of vs to bring not our owne but the sayings of the holy Ghost when we teach This was the rule which Constantine the Emperour enioyned the Fathers of that first famous Councell
intēded by the holy Ghost at the least in many places it cannot be the Apostles meaning that no man knoweth the sense of our Lord in the Scripture But the more you mistake the sense of the holy Ghost in Scripture the better you proue your opinion that no naturall wit or learning can bring a man to the vnderstanding thereof onely you must take heed of ouerweening your owne wit and learning and so of erring by drawing a generall conclusion against all men from your owne defect which also perhaps is not so much for want of wit or learning as for lacke of paines taking and because of a preiudicate conceit against the truth A. D. §. 4. Hence I inferre that those who for matters of faith relie wholy either vpon their owne priuate opinion or iudgement of the sense and meaning of Scripture or vpon the learning and iudgement of others who are but men not infallibly assisted by the holy Ghost nor by him vnfallibly preserued from errour as many or rather all Protestants do those I say cannot haue diuine and Christian faith but onely fallible opinion and humane faith As before I granted your conclusion that naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith so I now acknowledge the truth of your illation which you bring in thereupon that he which relieth wholly vpon his owne priuate opinion or any other mans iudgement can haue no true faith Yet must I again remember that to rely vpon such opinion or iudgement is to take that for truth which is taught barely vpon the credit of the teacher For otherwise a man may haue a true faith that is a certain and infallible assent to the truth though he beleeue vpon euident reason those points interpretations which are proued to him by men without any infallible authoritie of the Church But whereas you charge many or rather all Protestants to rely so vpon the iudgement of men I hope you do it without the authoritie of your Church that cannot erre for I am sure you do it without any shew of truth No Protestant of any discretion not onely not all beleeueth the doctrine of the Gospell in generall or any one particular interpretation as a matter of faith vpon any mans credit whatsoeuer This reuerence indeed we giue to our teachers that we rather trust their iudgement then our owne and dare not dissent from them but where we haue great likelihood of reason at least to the contrary Howsoeuer we ground no point of faith vpon any interpretation which is not plaine and euident to any man that will take paines to examine it according to true reason A. D. CHAP. IX That a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith A. W. A man may easily perceiue that you chuse to say any thing rather then nothing and therefore you make your selfe worke Chapter after Chapter I shall not need to repeate that which I haue noted before this Chapter giueth sufficient euidence of that I say What a strange kind of speech is this that a priuate spirit is the rule of faith No spirit neither priuate nor publick is ordinarily the rule of faith no not the most holy spirit of God but onely as he speaketh in the Scripture who alwayes teacheth one and the same truth publickly and priuately A. D. §. 1. The third conclusion is that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church A. W. This is the interpretation of the title of your Chapter No priuate spirit that is no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be singularly instructed by the spirit c. I cannot tel whether I shold thinke you haue forgotten to speake English or purposely affect as strange doctrine so strange speech also To be singularly instructed with vs plaine Englishmen is to be taught in rare and excellent sort not to be apart or seuerally alone instructed which is your meaning I grant mens priuat opinions are called singular and the men themselues that haue such conceits are also so termed but he that professeth plainnesse to teach all kind of men should labour to speake so that all might vnderstand him But to the matter Whose opinion is it that any such man as you conceit or any man at all can be the rule of faith Sure not ours who as it hath often bene said giue this honour only to the word of God If any man hold that opinion vnlesse perhaps the senslesse Anabaptists with whom we haue nothing to do you are they who as it seemeth by the exception you adde grant that with limitation a man may be the rule of faith For you say he cannot be the rule of faith especially so farre forth as he beleeueth or teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church Do you not imply in this speech that so farre forth as he agreeth with the doctrine of the Catholick Church he may be the rule of faith But I obserue one rare thing in your course of disputing that you ordinarily propound your matter in such sort that you are faine presently after to make one exception or other Scripture alone say you cannot be the rule of faith is this all you meane No a limitation followeth Especially as it is translated by Protestants into English No naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith What by no meanes except they be infallibly assisted by the holy spirit of God In this Chapter we haue the like course held by you But leaue we this and be take our selues to consider your proofe A. D. §. 2. This I proue first because Saint Paul saith Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praeter id quod accepistis Anathemasit pronouncing generally that whosoeuer teacheth or preacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church should be held Anathematized or accursed A. W. Your reason is thus to be framed He that must be accursed for his teaching cannot be the rule of faith But a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church must be accursed for his teaching Therefore a priuate spirit that teacheth contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church cannot be the rule of faith First I desire all men to obserue that this argument of yours doth not proue that a priuate spirit cannot be the rule of faith but onely so farre forth as he doth disagree from the doctrine of the Church otherwise for all this reason he may be Wherein you speake absurdly and falsly Absurdly in propounding such a question to refute as neither we whom you professe to refute nor any reasonable man would euer once imagne viz. that a priuate spirit teaching an vntruth might be the rule of faith For how can that be but an vntruth which is contrary to that the Apostle deliuered by his preaching
If it belong to the spirit how is the presence of Christ applied therunto But to answer directly to the place thus you dispute If Christ haue promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world then he hath promised it that he might teach the Church all truth But he hath promised to be with a companie of men till the end of the world Therefore he hath promised it that he might teach them all truth Admit all this were granted yet would it not follow hereupon that the Church therefore could not erre because as I answered before perhaps they would not haue care to learne and remember all though our Sauiour were readie to teach them all I denie the consequence of your proposition First because they to whom our Sauiour maketh this promise are not the Church as you vnderstand the Church that is the Cleargie of whose teaching you wholy speake but the faithfull ioyntly and seuerally as well hearers as teachers as well euery one as all together This appeareth by the text Go teach all nations c. and behold I am with you till the end of the world With whom With you that teach only Nay rather with al beleeuers for all which he praied as well as for the teachers So haue the ancient writers expounded and vnderstood this place He doth not say he will be with them onely saith Chrysostome but also with all that shall beleeue after them For the Apostles were not to continue to the end of the world but he speaketh to the faithfull as to one bodie Christ sheweth saith Jerome that he will neuer depart from them that beleeue So doth Cyprian make it common to all beleeuers that confesse the truth of God in time of triall So doth Leo to all that are adopted He that is gone vp into Heauen saith Leo doth not forsake them that are adopted So Beda he remaineth with his elect in this world protecting thē To which purpose S. Austin saith that this promise is fulfilled by our Sauiour in that he is present according to his maiestie according to his prouidence according to his vnspeakable and inuisible grace With all that beleeue saith Gaudentius I will be with you that is saith Denys the Charterhouse monke with you and your successors and with all the faithfull or militant Church And thereupon he gathereth that the faith shall neuer wholy faile but Christian religion shall continue in some till the end of the world The like collection Rabanus maketh Hereby saith he it is vnderstood that there shall neuer be some wanting till the ende of the world who shall be worthie or fit for God to dwell in The Councell of Vienna as Gregorie de Valentia saith expounded the place of Christ being present in the Sacrament which is common to all beleeuers lib. 3. Clement de relique vener sanctorum c. si Dominum Secondly the consequence is naught because the ende of Christs presence is not to teach the Church all truth but to protect and defend them by his power in the profession of the truth So it is applied as we heard before by Cyprian to the comfort of the Christians then imprisoned for religion So doth Austin take it that he is present by his prouidence and diuine Maiestie The same is Haymo his iudgement and exposition But Martialis is most plaine who by this promise exhorteth thē of Tholouse in France to perseuere in the profession of religion because our Sauiour Christ will neuer leaue thē but alwaies be present with them He confirmeth and encourageth them saith Theophylact because he sent them to the Gentiles into dangers and hazards of their liues And Chrysostome thinketh wherein also Theophyl secondeth him that our Sauiour mentioneth the end of the world because he would haue them with more patience and constancy endure what soeuer hard measure for a time vpon earth in regard of the ioyes whereof they should be made partakers in the world to come If then this promise of our Sauiour belong to all euery true beleeuer if it be vttered for the comfort of all such that they may rest vpon his mighty protection who seeth not that an impossibilitie of your Cleargies erring cannot be concluded from it 1 The places of Iohn are thus to be concluded If our Sauiour haue promised the spirit of truth to a certain company of men to abide with thē for euer teach thē all truth then the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith But Christ hath promised the spirit so to a certain cōpany of men Therfore the teaching of these men is an assured ground of faith First I answer that your conclusion proueth not the point in question because this companie to which the promise is made is not the Church from time to time but that promise belongeth to the Apostles either onely or at the least principally in such a measure of being taught The former may thus appeare because our Sauiour speaketh of another comforter in respect of his owne bodily departure from them which cannot belong to the Church now with which Christ was neuer present in that sort Secondly this spirit promised was to bring all things that Christ had taught to their remembrance whom he should teach But this cannot belong to the present Church nor to any Church since the Apostles Thirdly this sending of the spirit was performed when the holy Ghost came vpon the Apostles which doth not befall the Church now a dayes Fourthly the same spirit was to shew them the things to come either concerning themselues in particular or by giuing them the gift of prophesie which now the Church hath not Thus do Tertullian and Austin vnderstand these places applying them to the Apostles so doth Iansenius bishop of Gaunt so Chrysostome and Theophylact so your ordinary Glosses and Lyra. And whereas this interpretation may seeme to be refuted by the place it selfe because the spirit must abide with them to whom he is promised for euer that is expounded by Chrysostome to signifie his continuance with them euen after death also Which Theophylact sets out more at large His companie with you saith our Sauiour shall not be for a time as mine but shall continue for euer neither shall it faile when you are dead but shall remaine with you and shall make you more glorious He promiseth saith your Glosse that the spirit shall do all not that all is fulfilled in this life This Comforter saith Lyra shall not be taken from you as my humane nature is drawne away by death but shall be with you eternally here by grace but in the world to come by glorie We may perhaps conceiue our Sauiours meaning to be no more but that the spirit which hee would send should not leaue them as he was to do but should abide
the Church is of infallible and vndoubted truth and that the way not to be deceiued in an obscure question is to aske and follow the iudgement of the Church Wherefore worthily also do we all say Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam I beleeue the Catholicke Church and worthily also may I conclude that neither Scripture alone nor naturall wit and learning nor priuate spirit nor any other thing but onely the teaching of the true Church of Christ is that ordinarie meanes which Almightie God hath prouided whereby all men may learne that one infallible entire faith which I proued to be necessarie to saluation A. W. Saint Paul doth worthily call the Church the pillar and ground of truth but not as you would haue vs beleeue because it is the rule of faith The Greeke Scholiast taketh that speech of the Apostle to be vttered by way of comparison betwixt the Church of Christ and the Iewish Temple Not as the Iewish Temple saith Oecumenius but the pillar and ground of truth for the Temple was the ground of the shadowes of the truth Out of which we may gather that as the Iewish synagogue was the pillar and ground of those shadowes of the truth so is the Church of Christ the pillar and ground of the truth it selfe But that synagogue was not the rule of faith in that point because whatsoeuer it taught was to be held for infallible truth but for that to it were committed the oracles of God and the knowledge and vse of those ceremonies so hath the Church of Christ the truth of doctrine in the scripture and the exercises of Gods worship and religion Therfore is it called the pillar and ground of it because it constantly maintaineth that truth preaching and professing it in despight of all the practises and power of Satan and tyrants of the world As the thighs saith an ancient writer sustaine and beare vp the weight of the whole bodie so also the Apostles like pilars valiantly carry the vniuersall Church of Christians ouer the whole world being for the value of their inuincible courage and stedfastnesse of their holy purpose called marble pillars And a litle after They preached the Gospell with such wisedome and constancie that as if they had bene of marble or adamant they were afraid of no violence nor aduersitie but always continuing firme and inuincible against all the forces of men and diuels shining as it were in the darke by that light of their wisedome by preaching admonishing teaching and glistering with miracles at the last they most happily became conquerors To this effect speake your Glosses The ground of the truth of the Gospell which the Church constantly maintained euen in the greatest persecutions Well vpholding the truth in it self saith another Glosse That it may not fall to the ground though it be afflicted saith Lombard But let vs bring your reason into due frame The pillar and ground of truth is the rule of faith The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church is the rule of faith Your proposition or maior is false vnlesse you restraine it as I haue often said to the truth and then it is so far the rule of faith as it is the pillar and ground of truth Whatsoeuer it holdeth truly according to the scripture is the rule of faith for those points not because of the Churches authoritie but for the truth of the doctrine Yet may it easily come to passe that a Church maintaining the generall truth of the Gospell and all particulars necessary to soluation may faile in many other points of great importance and for all that continue both a true Church and the pillar and ground of truth though not the rule of faith Your minor also as you vnderstand it is vntrue First because the Apostle speaketh not of any such companie as you imagine Pope Bishop Councell but either of the Church of Ephesus in which Timothie to whom he writeth then abode or indefinitely of any and euery Church whatsoeuer where the true Religion of our Sauiour is or shall be professed according to the Gospell If Timothie were as you will not denie Bishop of Ephesus then it is apparent that the Apostle calleth the Church of Ephesus wherein Timothy liued taught and gouerned the pillar and ground of truth yet was it not the rule of faith for then had the rule of faith perished long since with that Church of Ephesus If he speake to him as to an Euangelist who was to follow him from place to place and to establish the Churches which the Apostle had planted then must euery one of those Churches wherein Timothy was to behaue himselfe as he had done in Ephesus be vnderstood to be the pillar and ground of truth and yet neither any nor all of them were the rule of faith which else must haue bene lost with them What remaines then Shall we expound it of all beleeuers in generall I grant it reacheth to all the faithfull but as to them considered in their seuerall Churches because among them so disposed of was Timothy to performe that dutie which the Apostle there enioyneth him But let vs so conceiue of the Church What shall it auaile you or endamage vs All beleeuers are not the companie you pleade for but onely the Pope and your Bishops whom you would haue taken for the rule of faith Secondly I denie your minor in respect of the sense you giue of those words the pillar and ground of truth For you so vnderstand them as if the truth of God depended vpon the verdict of the Church so that nothing may be held for truth but what the Church deliuereth for such and whatsoeuer she so propoundeth must so be receiued vpon paine of certaine damnation How contrary are you in this interpretation and doctrine to the auncient fathers The Apostles saith Irenaeus left vs the Scriptures to be the pillar and ground of our faith Nay say you they left vs the Church to be the pillar and ground of the Scriptures The Gospell and spirit of life saith the same father in the same booke is the pillar and ground of the Church Nay by your leaue reply you the Church is the pillar and ground of the Gospell But Chrysostome handling this place of the Apostle is not afraid to affirme that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church not as if he would denie that which the Apostle saith for the Church indeed is the vpholder of the truth but to shew that although the Church maintaine and auow the truth yet it is built and founded vpon the truth which as Ierome saith vpholds the building Therfore to make short whē the Apostle saith that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth his meaning is that amongst Christians and among no other sort of men the truth is to be found and amongst and by them it is constantly and worthily
also in the forgiuenesse of sinnes and the meaning is all one And in a third Sermon he giueth vs this caueat we must know saith he that we must beleeue the Church not beleeue in the Church that is must beleeue there is a Church So then To beleeue the Catholicke Church is not to beleeue all that the Church saith which neither the Greeke nor the Latin will beare but to beleeue there is a Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Credo esse Ecclesiam which in the phrase of the new Testament for the Greeke might be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which is word for word I beleeue that there is a Church Now if any man shall demaūd of me what the meaning of this article is or what we beleeue by beleeuing there is a Church and what that Church is to which so many gracious promises are made and of which so many glorious things are spokē in the scripture I will indeuor to satisfie him as briefly as I can with plainnesse First then leauing the holinesse and catholicknesse of this church to be discussed in due place I say that by beleeuing the Church we beleeue that there is a company of men called to true faith in Iesus Christ and to the participation of those priuiledges which belong to all the true members of his mysticall bodie some of the principall whereof are recited in the articles following But we may not imagine as the Papists doe without any likelihood of true reason that this company is their Pope and Bishops assembled in a generall councel or that they of this companie make one visible congregation but that they are all one Church in regard of the common meanes of saluation which they embrace and their dependance vpon on mysticall head Iesus Christ of whose bodie they are all members So that by Church in the Creed we vnderstand such of the elect as are by faith liuely members of our Sauiours bodie or at the least are by the baptisme of the spirit and water in corporated into that bodie howsoeuer as yet they haue not faith I denie not that all the elect euen those which are yet vnborne belong to the Church of Christ but I thinke the Creed doth not stretch so farre but onely to them that are actually members of Christ not to all that are so in Gods euerlasting predestination In this sense namely for the liuing members of Christs bodie the word Church is often vsed in the Scripture Vpon this rocke will I build my Church The Church which he hath purchased with his blood God hath giuen Christ ouer all things to be the head of the Church which is his bodie the fulnesse of him that filleth all in all things Christ is the head of the Church and the same is the Sauiour of his bodie So is it taken in the same chapter diuers times He is the head of the bodie of the Church Thus doe the ancient writers speake of the Church Austin denieth that he dares take any for the Church of Christ but those that are iust and holy no though they haue bene baptised For as he saith in another place they that are condemned by Christ are not now in his bodie which is the Church because Christ cannot haue members condemned As for the reprobate saith the same Author whether they seeme to be within the Church or be apparantly out of it they are alwaies diuided from the vnitie of the Church which is without spot or wrincle The Church saith Clement of Alexandria is the company of the elect Therefore saith Cyprian that the vnitie of Christ and the Church is coupled together with indiuisible links For as he saith otherwhere the Church that beleeueth in Christ and holds that which once it hath receiued neuer departeth wholy frō him they are the Church that cōtinue in the house of God but they are not a planting planted by God who are not setled with the fastnesse and soundnesse of wheat but are scattered like chaffe by the breath of the enemie Sathan The Church standeth on the right hand saith Ierome and hath nothing in it belonging to them on the left hand And againe He that is a sinner and defiled with any filthinesse cannot be called one of Christs Church nor be said to be subiect to Christ There are many such sayings in the writings of the Fathers grounded vpon the booke of Canticles which all men know intreateth of the true church There is no doubt saith Bernard vpon the Canticles but the elect are the Church of God But the reprobat as one of your Cardinals saith are not truly mēbers of the Church Of many beleeuers purged from their sinnes there is made one Church saith Albertus magnus Thomas his master Thomas himselfe expounding that place of the Reuelation In the Temple of my God saith that by the temple of God the Church of the faithfull is vnderstood which is the speciall temple of God and to that purpose he alledgeth that of the Apostle The temple of God is holy which you are And in an other place he saith that the mysticall bodie of Christ is the Church Now the vnion of this mystical bodie is spiritual by which through faith and charitie they are vnited to God and one to another As the godly or they that are holy are the members of Christ so the wicked saith Ambrose are the members of the Diuell The congregation of them that beleeue aright is the Church saith Altissiodorensis Who can reasonably doubt whether this be the Church spoken of in the Creed or no As for the promises and commendations giuen to the Church in the Scripture to what other Church should they appertaine The Doue and the perfect one praised in the Canticles is as Epiphanius truly saith the holy spouse and Catholicke Church Whereas the Church in the Canticles saith Austin is described to be a garden inclosed a fountain sealed vp a wel of liuing water c. I dare not vnderstand this but of the holy and righteous not of couetous men not of deceiuers extortioners vsurers drunkards enuious persons although they haue receiued the same baptisme but haue not the same charitie or sanctifying grace The promises praises belong either seuerally to euery one of the elect called as that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against the Church that the Church is loued and cherished by Christ her husband head or to the congregations of beleeuers in regard of the elect amongst them Once this I dare boldly affirme let any Papist disproue it if he can that the Church is no where in all the Scripture taken for one companie through the world in respect of any outward gouernment or dependance which is the foundation of all your doctrine touching the Church but in regard of the common meanes of saluation by faith in Christ And here I might
ouer all Satans forces I thinke saith Ierome the gates of hell are vices and sinnes or surely the doctrines of heretickes by which men being entised are led to hell Doth any of these writers expound this place of such a companie as you dreame of Nay doth not our Sauiour himself restraine it to the elect and yet apply it to euery one of them For who beside them is built vpon the rocke or which of them in his due time is not so built All that the Father giueth me shall come vnto me and him that commeth to me I cast not away And againe This is the Fathers will that sent me that of all which he hath giuen me I should lose nothing but should raise it vp againe at the last day Secondly the consequence of your maior is yet more weake because you misinterprete the text as if our Sauiour meant to promise a perpetual continuance of his Church vpon earth by saying that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For hereby it must needs be granted that the gates of hell do preuaile against all such Christians as by persecution or any violence are taken out of the world Yea Peter himselfe and his fellow Apostles to whom this promise was first made found not the true performance of it in their owne persons but were ouercome by the gates of hell Do you magnifie our Sauiours promises that make them faile so notoriously euen to the Apostles themselues The gates of hell saith Theophylact are temporall persecutors who endeuor to send Christians to hell Heretickes also are gates leading to hell The Church therefore hath preuailed against many heretickes and persecutors The gates of hell saith your Glosse shall not separate the Church from my loue and faith Persecutions of tyrants saith Lyra assaults and tentations of wicked spirits shall not preuaile by subuerting the Church from the true faith Brugensis speaketh yet more plainly The gates of hell shal not preuaile saith he so that the Church shal be ouerthrowne that is separated from Christ or fall away from saluation by Christ or faile of it The Apostles and other holy Martyrs and Christians were ouercome in regard of their continuance vpō earth but not separated frō Christ nay rather they are more nearly ioyned to him It is one thing to say the Church that is they that truly beleeue in Christ shall by no power of Satan and his instruments either inward or outward be seuered from Christ or faile of saluation by him another to affirme that there shall alwayes be some on earth that shall beleeue and make profession of the Gospell Bellarmine applies this text one while to the generall Councels approued by the Pope which as he saith by reason of this promise cannot erre either in beleeuing or in teaching another while to the vniuersall Church and to the sea of Rome which absurdly and falsly he maketh the rocke vpon which the vniuersal Church is built so that by the Church according to Bellarmine Rome or Peters seate as he calleth it must be meant first and principally from which at the second hand the vniuersall Church must haue her perpetuall stabilitie But what should I stand any longer vpon this place hauing shewed that the promise is not of the Churches continuance without interruption but of the certaintie of their saluation that beleeue truly in our Sauiour Christ and so being built vpon the rocke cannot be shaken downe or ouerthrowne by any storme In this sense I grant the minor our Sauiour hath made a promise that no one member of his shall perish though the gates of hell send out and employ all their forces against him He that confesseth and beleeueth with Saint Peter shall be saued with Saint Peter But I denie the minor according to the sense you make of it concerning the perpetuall continuance of a certaine companie without interruption or error and yet I beleeue the Catholicke Church and that at all times there are some true members thereof vpon earth chosen to life and iustified by faith in Christ A. D. §. 4. Thirdly I may confirme the same out of other Scriptures where the perpetuitie of the church is either affirmed or promised of which kind of testimonies being very many I wil onely rehearse some few Of the Church if we wil beleeue S. Austin his exposition it is said Deus fundauit eam in aeternum God hath established it for euer And of it signified by the name of the kingdome of Christ the Prophet Daniel saith Suscitabit Deus coeli regnum quod in aeternum non dissipabitur The God of heauen shal raise vp a kingdom which shal not be broken in peeces for euer As is also said in S. Luke Regni eius non erit finis there shall be no end of his kingdome A. W. These few are more then need for the proofe of that wherof no man doubteth but if they were twice as many their weight would be too small for the matter you vndertake to proue by them as it wil appeare by the weighing of them in the ballance of true reason That say you which God hath established for euer so that there shal be no end of it must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end But God hath so established the Church that there shal be no end of it Therefore the Church must alwayes continue without interruption till the worlds end That the Church shall continue in all times and ages as I haue often said we grant and maintaine that such a Church as you fancie to your selues either shall be alwayes or euer was in the world since the Apostles we vtterly denie Farther I say your proposition is false because the continuance of the church dependeth not vpon her being in the world but vpon her being ioyned to Christ And if the Church shal remaine euen after this world is ended and then especially flourish what folly is it to thinke it continueth not vnlesse it be vpon the earth May I not certainly conclude that it shall continue after this world because it is established for euer How then doe you gather hereupon that it ceaseth to be if it be not in this world at all times without interruption Was not this spoken of the Church of the Iewes also Is not the like affirmed of the ceremonies And yet neither of these hath continued nor did continue without interruption while they stood before the time of their abolishing That the Psalme was written either wholy or principally of Ierusalem and of the Church of the Iewes belonging thereunto both the course of it manifestly sheweth and he that considereth the expositions of it by Ierome and Austine and what ado they haue to fit the seuerall verses thereof to the Church of Christ will easily be perswaded But what Church meane they thinke you Such a companie of men as you talke of
on whom al men gaze Thinke not therefore saith our Sauiour that ye shal lie hid in a corner Ye shal be the light of the world and therefore see that you liue vnblameably and become not an offence to other men Who can gather from hence the consequence of your proposition If the Church be not visible to all men at all times it is not ordained by our Sauiour to be the light of the world Your second proofe concerning the rule and meanes is no lesse insufficient If the Church at any time could not be knowne of men you must needs meane of euery particular man if you will speake to the purpose it cannot at all times be a meanes by which the truth may be knowne to all sorts of men This is the consequence I denied before either brought by you for a new proofe or repeated idly within 3. or 4. lines after it was first deliuered Here you returne to your minor and to proue the latter part of it propound the second time your maine reason answered at large in the fifth Chapter It would be tedious and losse of time and labour to repeate all that was then said I wil therfore content my selfe to draw it into forme as it lieth and to denie the false propositions without any more adoe vnlesse I meete with somewhat by the way which was not in your former discourse Thus you reason If the Church be not ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or meanes by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation then some men at some time haue wanted one necessary meanes to that purpose But no man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes to that purpose Therefore the Church is ordained by our Sauiour to be a rule or means by which all men at all times may attaine to faith and saluation I denie your Assumption which you endeuour to proue in this sort If any man at any time hath wanted any necessary meanes then it is not vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth But it is vniuersally true that God hath a true will to haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth Therefore no man at any time hath wanted any necessarie meanes Againe I denie your minor referring the Reader for the true sense of that Scripture to my answer in the fift Chapter The proofe of your consequence about which you labor like a man that claps plaister vpon plaister on a sound place is altogether needlesse and not worth the examining saue onely that in the last clause thereof you confidently harp vpon the former string which soundeth nothing but the necessitie of a visible Church to saluation But the Apostle where he sheweth what is of necessitie to faith neither mentioneth nor any way implieth a visible Church but only requireth a sending of some to preach and that may be from God immediatly not by succession in and by men Did not our Sauiour Christs preaching bring many to faith in him and so to saluation Did not Peter conuert 3000. at one Sermon Did not the Apostle Paul plant many Churches Was any of these a visible Church or did the people to whom they preached either seeke to them as to a visible Church or beleeue that they deliuered because they were sent by a visible Church It is true that no man ordinarily can beleeue vnlesse he heare no man can heare vnlesse there be one to preach to him no man can preach vnlesse he be sent But what is all this to the necessitie of a visible Church Looke through the whole history of the new Testament and see how many examples you can finde of any that were but so much as occasioned to beleeue by the meanes of a visible Church The same of our Sauiours miracles drew many to the hearing of him not the knowledge of any visible Church Cornelius a deuout man and one that feared God liuing neare to the places where the Gospell was preached was not moued by the visible Church but by a vision from heauen to send for Peter that he might heare and beleeue I might shew the like in diuers other examples that the Apostles were faine seuerally to go from place to place to preach the Gospell and not to stay till the fame of them or a visible Church should moue people to enquire after them I denie not that occasion may be giuen to men to hearken after the Gospell by reason of some visible Church whereof they may by diuers meanes haue vnderstanding but that it is vnpossible for men to come to the knowledge of true faith and hereby to saluation without a visible Church or that a visible Church is alwayes the first step to saluation though sometimes it may be the first occasion of hearing and beleeuing A. D. §. 4. Thirdly if the vniuersall Church of Christ should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue For if it did outwardly professe how should it not by this profession be made visible and knowne But if the vniuersall Church should for such a time faile to professe the faith hell gates contrarie to Christs promise did mightily preuaile against it For were it not a mightie preuailing that the whole Church should faile in a thing so necessarie to saluation as we know outward profession of faith to be necessarie both by that of our Sauiour Qui negauerit me coram hominibus ego negabo illum coram Patre meo He that shall denie me before men I wil denie him before my Father And Qui me erubuerit sermones meos hunc Filius hominis erubescet He that shal be ashamed of me and of my words him the Sonne of man wil be ashamed of And by that of S. Paule Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore fit confessio ad salutem With heart we beleeue to iustice with mouth we confesse to saluation Which place learned men interprete to signifie that profession of faith is sometimes necessarie to saluation and they say further that this sometimes is so oft as either the glorie of God or the profite of our neighbour doth of necessitie require it the which cases of necessitie do happen verie often and great maruell it were or rather vnpossible that they should neuer haue happened for so long a time as the Protestants would haue their Church to haue beene inuisible A. W. If the vniuersall Church of Christ say you should for any space of time be inuisible it should for that space cease to professe outwardly that faith which in heart it did beleeue But it may not for any space cease to professe that faith Therefore it may not for any space of time be inuisible To omit that fancie that there is one such vniuersall Church of
not perceiue those things which are of the Spirit of God For sith none by the onely power of naturall wit which in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries which we beleeue by our faith neither doth the Spirit of God who as the principall cause infuseth this gift of faith into our soules ordinarily instruct any man in the knowledge of true faith immediatly by himselfe alone or by an Angell sent from heauen we must needs if we will haue true faith seeke first for that which it pleaseth Almightie God to vse as the ordinarie instrument and as a necessary meanes by which men may learne true faith the which is no other but the preaching and teaching of the true church according to that saying of S. Paul Quomodo credent ei quem non audierint quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur How shall they beleeue him whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Therefore the true Church which only hath preachers truly sent of God must first be found out that by it we may heare and know which is the true faith Therefore of the two the true Church is rather a mark whereby we may know the true preaching and consequently the true doctrine of faith then contrarie that as heretickes say the doctrine should be a marke whereby all men must know which is the true Church A. W. Belike as you had good cause you suspected your abilitie to proue simply that the true preaching of the word in all matters fundamentall and the right administration of the sacraments are not a good marke of a true Church And therefore you rather chose to proue by way of comparison that the true church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by For so runs your conclusion directly If the end of seeking the true Church say you be principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine then the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the true Church by But the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes learne true doctrine in all points which otherwise wee cannot attaine to Therefore the true Church is rather a marke to know true doctrine then true doctrine a marke to know the Church by Though the conclusion as I said be not directly to the question which is not comparatiue but simple whether true doctrine be a good mark to discerne a true Church by or no yet I will take it as it is and answer to the parts of it Your maior in the antecedent may haue a double meaning First that we cannot in any point learne true doctrine but by the Church and then I denie the consequence For true doctrine in the fundamentall points of Religion may be a good marke of the true Church though we seeke the true Church because there are many points which we cannot learne without it But howsoeuer you vnderstand the maior the minor is euidently false First because the principall end of seeking the true Church is that we may truly worship God in the assembly of his children to his greater glorie and our farther assurance of his loue to vs as we may see euery where in the booke of the Psalmes Secondly because we are not to learne of the true Church as a necessarie and infallible meanes but of the ministers thereof who are appointed by God to giue vs knowledge of the meanes of saluation by expounding the word of God to vs not to binde vs to beleefe by their authoritie Your minor you offer to proue in this maner If no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries and faith be not to be had but by the teaching of the true Church then the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may learne by it as a necessarie and infallible meanes true doctrine in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine But no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries nor faith be had but by the teaching of the true Church Therefore the end of seeking the true Church is principally that we may by it as a necessary and infallible meanes learne the true faith in all points to which otherwise we cannot attaine The consequence of your maior is naught It doth not follow that we seeke the true Church to learne of it as a necessary and infallible meanes because we cannot know the mysteries of Religion without faith which commeth by the teaching of the true Church For there may well be teaching and learning without any such authoritie in the Church that teacheth Your minor is very doubtfull as I will shew in answering seuerally to the parts of it First then whereas you say that no man without faith can obtaine the supernaturall knowledge of diuine mysteries if you meane that a man cannot acknowledge the truth of such mysteries without faith your minor in that part is true but if your meaning be that a man cannot vnderstand what the meanes of saluation appointed by God are without faith I take your minor to be false For though those meanes be indeed such as no discourse of man euer could deuise or thinke on being vtterly supernaturall yet it is possible for a meere naturall man to learne what they are out of the Scriptures and that without faith because the Scriptures may be vnderstood by such helpes of the tongues and arts as humane learning doth affoord vs though to the sauing knowledge thereof the especiall grace of God be absolutely necessarie The other point that faith cannot be found but by the teaching of the true Church may also haue a double sense The first that faith cannot be wrought in any mans heart but by the preaching of some man authorized to that purpose by the true Church and this as I shewed before is not alwayes true for faith may be and hath bene begotten in some by the reading of the Scriptures where the ministery of the word was not to be had and by the teaching of ordinarie Christians not set apart to preach the Gospell The other meaning is this that faith cannot be attained to but by our hearkning to the voyce of such a Preacher as we alreadie know to be sent by the true Church And this indeed specially fits your purpose but hath no likelihood of truth in it For they that came to faith by the Apostles preaching did not beleeue them as men autorized for their instruction by the true church but as being conuinced in their consciences by the euidence of the truth they deliuered without
any regard or knowledge of their being sent by the true Church This weake minor of yours is vnderpropt in each part with a pillar of the holy Scripture the former thus No sensuall man can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries Euery man without faith is a sensuall man Therefore no man without faith can obtaine the knowledge of diuine mysteries If by obtaining the knowledge of diuine mysteries you meane assenting to the truth of God concerning saluation I grant your whole syllogisme and in this sense it was needlesse to proue that part of your minor In the other sense that a man cannot attaine to the knowledge of them but by faith which the words manifestly import I denie the maior for the reason before alledged but whatsoeuer your meaning be the Apostle saith no more but that a naturall man without the grace of God can neither once imagine any such meanes of saluation and other there is none nor acknowledge those meanes as true and sufficient Of the former the Apostle speakes in the ninth verse affirming that the means of saluation prepared by God for men are such as neither eye hath seen nor eare hath heard nor euer entred into any mans heart Of the latter is the place alledged by you where the word signifieth rather an approuing and receiuing then a perceiuing and the spirituall man whom he there opposeth to the naturall is said to discerne of spirituall things rather by acknowledging the truth of them then by vnderstanding the meaning of the word preached concerning them Your translation which I touched before where you terme hominem animalem a sensuall man is senslesse For who knowes not that by a sensuall man we meane a voluptuous man giuen vp to his pleasures and sensualitie But the Apostle speakes not of such onely but euen of the wisest and most vertuous that euer were amongst men without grace so that in his meaning as well temperate Xenocrates and learned Aristotle called for his knowledge natures darling vertuous Socrates and wise Solon as Sardanapalus Thersites Nero and such like are naturall men that is such as haue no grace of God but that shadow of it which remaineth in all men by nature and is helped by education and humane learning It is true that Animalis naturalis is not all one in nature yet doth Naturall better expresse the Apostles meaning then sensuall and generally all writers haue made an opposition in this sense betwixt Nature and Grace not betwixt Sensualnesse and Grace as you may see throughout Austins Prospers Ieromes and your owne Schoolemens writings Neither will it helpe the matter to say as you doe that Naturall wit in vnderstanding vseth the helpe of outward senses For sensuall signifieth not him that vseth his senses to the vnderstanding of this or that but him that is drowned in Sensualitie Besides naturall wit doth not vse the helpe of the outward senses alwaies in vnderstanding yea there are many and the most excellent pointes of Philosophie in which Sense hath nothing to doe as in the discourse of Reason and the knowledge of Logicke with all those hard and worthie Questions of the Soule and of God himselfe as farre as they are to be conceiued of by the light of nature If you will say that we learne these things partly by reading and hearing I aunswer both that we finde out many things in Philosophie of our selues by studie without anie helpe of Sense which rather is an hinderance to the soule in the search of such pointes and also that the knowledge we haue of diuine mysteries is first brought to vs and continually increased in vs by the same Senses of seeing and hearing else were your Church as good be without those preachers you so much brag of The other part of your Minor that faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church you prooue or rather endeauour to prooue in this sort If no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach except he be sent then Faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church But no man can beleeue without he heare nor heare without one preach and no man can preach without he be sent Therefore faith cannot be had but by the teaching of the true Church I denie the consequence of your Maior and affirme that faith may be had without the teaching of the true Church though no man can beleeue without he heare c. For I haue shewed that some countries haue bene brought to beleefe without any such teaching by authoritie from the true Church I also referre the Reader to my answer to your Minor That place of the Apostle concerneth not the ordinarie ministerie of the word but the knowledge of the means of saluation which as the Apostle truly saith could neuer haue bene thought on by any man if it had not pleased God to giue notice thereof to the world by men appointed and authorised to that purpose by himselfe But of this place and matter I spake sufficiently before in this and in a former chapter A. D. §. 4. Thirdly true faith is included in the true Church and as it were enclosed in her belly as Saint Austin saith vpon those words of the Psalme Errauerunt ab vtero loquuti sunt falsa In ventre Ecclesiae saith he veritas manet quisquis ab hoc ventre separatus fuerit necesse est vt falsa loquatur Truth remaineth in the belly of the Church whosoeuer is separated to wit by difference in doctrine from this belly of the Church must needs speake false Therefore like as if a man had Gold in his belly we must first finde the man before we can come to see the gold it selfe so we must first by other markes finde out the true Church which hath the gold of true faith hidden in her belly before we come to see the gold of true faith it selfe Sith especially we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it vnto vs and that we cannot being spiritually blinde certainely know it to be true and not counterfeit but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it According as the same Saint Austin saith Euangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae authoritas commouerer I should not beleeue the Gospell it selfe vnlesse I were mooued by the authoritie of the Church For if we had not the testimonie of the Church how should we haue bene infallibly sure that there were any Gospell at all Or how should we haue knowen that those bookes which â—eare title of the Gospell according to Saint Mathew Marke Luke and Iohn are true Canonicall Scripture rather then those bookes which are written in the name of Nicodemus and Saint Thomas bearing the same title or inscription of Gospell A. W. Your third reason is thus to be framed That which is shut vp in the belly
of the Church so that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainely know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it is not a good marke to know the true Church by But true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she open her mouth and deliuer it to vs nor certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it Therefore true doctrine is no good marke to know the true Church by Your Minor is false in both parts of it First it is vntrue that true doctrine is so shut vp in the belly of the Church yea many a true Church may hold some errors and many an hereticall Church some truth onely the fundamentall points are necessarie to the being of a true Church Secondly though true doctrine be in the belly of the Church as indeed there is no true Church in which it is not yet is it not so shut vp in it as you imagine For it is first and principally in the Scriptures where it may be found without any such authoritie of the Church as you dreame of yea I haue shewed that the Apostles themselues did not beget faith in the hearts of them to whom they preached by any authoritie of the Church but by euidence of the truth it selfe which they taught Concerning your proofe from Austins authoritie I first answer that he expoundeth not that place according to the literal meaning of the Prophet who speaketh not of any belly of the Church but saith that those lewd men of whom he speaketh haue alwaies bene giuen to naughtinesse from their mothers wombe These wicked ones saith Vatablus haue gone astray euer since they came forth of the womb they they haue erred euer since they were borne Yea Austin himselfe as your Glosse saith sometimes expoundeth it otherwise then here God saith Austin foreknew sinners euen from the wombe as he said to Rebecca So doth Ierome also vnderstand it so Theodoret. But let vs take it as Saint Austin doth here mystically expound it what will you prooue by it That truth is so shut vp in the belly of the Church that we cannot see it vnlesse she deliuer it by her mouth There is no such word in him no such thing to be gathered out of him His conclusion is that therefore they which differ from the true Church in doctrine are in error which is certainly true concerning fundamentall points and verie probable in all other points whatsoeuer The other part of your Minor is that true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it For the disproouing whereof it shall be sufficient to call to minde that which I haue often answered concerning those who beleeued by the Apostles ministerie without any consideration or thought of their being sent by the true Church but onely being conuinced by the manifest truth of that which they deliuered concerning forgiuenesse of sinne by our Sauiour Iesus Christ Your proofe out of Austin is insufficient as it may appeare in this sort If Austin say that he should not beleeue the Gospell vnlesse he were mooued by the authoritie of the Church then true doctrine is so shut vp within the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it But Austin saith so Therefore true doctrine is so shut vp in the Church that we cannot certainly know it to be true but by giuing credit to her testimonie of it I denie the consequence of your Maior First because as Austin himselfe saith of Cyprian we are not bound by the authoritie of Austins iudgement as if his writings were Canonicall We do Cyprian no wrong saith Austin when we distinguish his writings whatsoeuer they be from the Canonicall authoritie of the diuine Scriptures And againe I take not Cyprians writings for Canonicall but consider of them according to the Canonicall and allow of that with his commendation which agreeth to Scripture but by his leaue refuse that which disagreeth from Scripture This minde carried Austin to other mens writings this minde he desired other men should carrie to his Secondly I denie the same consequence because Austin might be mooued by the authoritie of the Church to acknowledge the Gospell for true and yet without the same authoritie learne out of the Gospell so acknowledged which is true doctrine which false Concerning Austins testimonie first it is manifest that he deliuereth not a rule for all men to follow as if by should not beleeue he meant that a man ought not to beleeue the Gospell nor sheweth an impossibilitie of beleeuing it vnlesse a man be moued by the authoritie of the Church but at the most declareth that the authoritie of the Church preuailed with him so farre as to make him acknowledge the Gospell for true which else he had either not knowne or doubted of Secondly it is obserued according to the rest of his writings that the Latine word he vseth in the African dialect signifieth Had not beleeued so that the sense is I had not beleeued the Gospell as the truth of God if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me thereunto The first motiue was the authoritie that is the learning consent holinesse of so many worthie men as from time to time had held and did hold the Gospell to be the truth of God Vpon this ground Austin gaue himselfe to the studie of the Scriptures and by the euidence of truth deliuered in it discerned that it was the word of God according to the report and reputation commonly held of it This sense agreeth with Austins purpose who to refute the Manichees that tooke their master Manes for the Apostle of Christ thus reasoneth against them I beleeue not saith Austin that he is Christs Apostle and then demaundeth of the Manichee what course he would take to prooue it to him Perhaps saith he you will read the Gospell to me and assay to prooue Manichaeus person out of it But what if you should light vpon one that doth not yet beleeue the Gospell Then follow the words alledged by you I truly had not beleeued the Gospell if the authoritie of the Church had not moued me This is yet more cleare by that which Austin writeth afterward First saith he we beleeue that which yet we cannot discerne that being made stronger in faith we may attaine to the vnderstanding of that we do beleeue not men now but God himselfe confirming enlightening our minde within But howsoeuer we vnderstand it Austin speaketh not of true doctrine shut vp in the Church so that it cannot be knowne to be true but by giuing credit to the Churches testimonie which is the point in question but onely of acknowledging the Gospell to be the word
We are now come to the principall point of your Minor wherein it stands you vpon to play the man and to make good those foure properties on the behalfe of your Church of Rome I must needs say it would grieue a man to take so much paines to so little purpose because if you prooue all that now you vndertake all that is as good as nothing till your Maior and your former syllogismes be better confirmed But yet if you quit your selfe well in this your Church shall be more beholding to you then it was euer yet to any of your fellowes in this question To begin withall you propound the question somwhat fauorably that the Romane Church holds not any dogmaticall points contrary to that which in former times frō the beginning it did hold It were much indeed your Church should teach contrarie doctrines to those it hath heretofore taught I think you can hardly name me any heresy so grosse as to fall frō one contrary to an other Your schoolmen haue set vp a mint wherin they coine vs euery day new distinctions to colour matters in such sort that your new opinions shall neuer appeare to be cōtrary to your old doctrine Hauing thus pitcht the state of the question it seemeth you thought there needed no proofe therof once it is apparent you offer not directly to bring any in this whole discourse but rather endeuour to shew vs the reason of this their agreement because forsooth they acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope either alone or at least with a generall Councell must needs be alwaies an vnfallible vndoubted truth Of which in due place But to take your matter as it lies That Church say you which holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold is alwaies one But the Church of Rome holdeth no dogmaticall point contrarie to that which informer times from the beginning it did hold Therefore the Church of Rome is alwaies one The question is not which Church is alwaies one in regard of not varying from that which first it held but which is alwaies one according to the meaning of the Nicene Creed that is which Church continueth in the truth of the Gospell For otherwise an hereticall Church might be acknowledged to be one and so a true Church because it remaineth obstinate in that heresie which at first it embraced Therefore your Maior is not true simply but onely vpon this supposition that your Church at the first held the truth But because we gladly acknowledge that the Church of Rome was at the first sound in faith I will leaue your Proposition and come to your Assumption Your Minor is excepted against by vs as you cannot choose but knowe in verie many points and some of them concerning the foundation of Christian Religion For triall whereof we appeale to the Epistle to the Romanes about matters of Faith Grace Iustification Free will Predestination and other that necessarilie depend vpon these Here are you as dumbe as a fish and like a man that had neither eares nor eies passe by this exception without taking any knowledge of it Is this a direct way according to your promise in your title to settle mens minds in all doubts questions and controuersies concerning matters of faith You might as well without all this ado haue told them in one word that the Church of Rome is the true Church and cannot erre For in effect what do you else when after many circumstances the question is brought to this issue whether the Church of Rome hold the same doctrine which in the Apostles time she professed You tell vs she doth without any proofe of that you say or answer to our manifold exceptions I will not enter into particulars as well because I see my answer growes greater then I intended or like of as also for that the seuerall controuersies betwixt you and vs are so many seuerall exceptions against this Assumption For verie pure shame you are driuen to confesse that there are differences of opinion among the learned of your side But to helpe the matter withall you qualifie it with sometimes Sometimes say you Either your reading must be verie little or your boldnesse exceeding great that you mince the matter in this sort with sometimes Answer my former challenge if you can concerning the warres among your schoolemen or doe but look into Cardinall Bellarmines controuersies and then tell me whether these differences be but sometimes or no. What learned writer almost is there of any fame on your part whom Bellarmine doth not dissent from in one point or other I might giue many instances but there is no man that reads him ignorant of that I say and you haue found a shift for this matter by interpreting dogmaticall points of Faith to be matters defined by the Church Wherein we are first to consider how absurdly you limit matters of faith Secondly to shew that euē in these matters so limited there is not alwaies agreement amongst your writers The vse and office of faith as it is onely an assent is to giue vndoubted credit to the whole truth of God by acknowledging it both to be from God and to be true For proofe of this if any man desire it I referre him to the third and forth Chapters of this treatise where you speake of the infalliblenesse and entirenesse of faith But though this be the dutie of faith it hath pleased God to deale graciously with men touching the meanes of their saluation and not to exact vpon absolute necessitie an acknowledging or knowledge of euery particular point of his truth Some things are such as I shewed before as that without them there is no possibilitie of saluation but that whosoeuer is ignorant of them either by neglecting the meanes of knowledge or by hauing no possibility to attaine vnto it he is vtterly shut out for ought we know from the kingdome of heauen Other points there are which euerie man must labour to know and beleeue because they are to that end reuealed by God but yet the simple ignorance of them so it be without contempt or carelesnesse doth not depriue a man of saluation by Christ The former of these two kindes are more properly matters of faith being absolutely necessarie to saluation You speake of matters of faith as though not the points in thēselues but the determination of the Church should make a necessitie of them to saluation So that the not beleeuing of the least matter of ceremonie enioyned by the Church shall be more damnable then the ignorance of the greatest point of Diuinitie being not so determined But I would faine know of you how I shall vnderstand what is to be accounted determined by the Church You confesse afterward that it is questionable whether the chiefe Pastor that is the Pope alone or he with a generall Councel be the Church which cannot erre Doubtlesse if it be
as you taught vs before of necessitie to saluation that we beleeue entirely all points of faith without misbeleeuing any one what hope of saluation shall be left to any Papist who cannot by any meanes know what is determined by the Church and what is not Or if he may be sure that matters defined by the Pope and a Councell are decided by the Church yet since it is not so determined whether the Pope alone be sufficient to determine of points in controuersie he may refuse to obey some constitutions of the Pope or to beleeue some questions decided by him and thereby shut himselfe out of heauen for not giuing credit to the determination of the Church if that authoritie of determining be in the Pope and he commaund men so to beleeue But if this determination of the Church be ioyntly in the Pope and Councels and that nothing is a matter of faith but that which is so determined to be then was there almost no matter of faith at all in the Church till within these last 800 yeares For it is more then euident to any man that will not be wilfully contentious that the Pope neuer bare any extraordinarie sway in Councels till he had proclaimed himselfe vniuersall Bishop which was by the grant of the murtherer Phocas six hundred yeares after the beginning of the Gospell What shall we thinke of the Churches in the Apostles times and so forward till the Councell of Nice in which the Popes supremacie was not heard of Had Christians then no matters of faith to beleeue How should they if all depend vpon the Pope and a general Councel Let me grant that those Councels in the Acts were generall what was there determined but that the Gentiles were to abstaine from things offered to Idols and bloud and that which is strangled and from fornication VVas nothing a matter of faith but these few points which also till this time were not matters of faith Either shew some good reason why matters of faith were not at this time of the Apostles liuing to be tied to generall Councels and the Pope yet now must be or confesse the truth to the glorie of God that matters of faith haue their authoritie to be matters of faith from the word of God and not from the determination of Pope or Councell or both Neither thinke to shift of the matter by saying they are indeed matters of faith in themselues but not to vs. For so it will come to passe that we shall say the first Christians had no points that were matters of faith to them because they had none determined by the Church in a Councell which opinion is I know not whether of more absurditie or impietie Now that you agreement in matters of faith after the determination of the Church is not so great as you would make the world beleeue it may appeare by the verie ground of religion the Canon of the Scripture which was determined of by your iudgement in the Councell of Carthage wherein the Apocryphall bookes say you were allowed for Canonical yet saith Bellarmine Nicholas Lyra Denys the Carthusiā Hugo de sancto victore Thomas de Vio both these at least the last Cardinals follow Ierom in reiecting thē as Apocryphal But if this Councel may be excepted against sure in your iudgment the Councell of Trent may not which hath receiued those books into the canō of the scripture Yet for all that Sixtus Senensis keeper of the Popes library maketh bold to deny thē such authority euen since that Coūcel as Bellarmine himself confesseth And Arias Montanus since that time doubteth not to say that the Orthodoxe or true Church following the Canon of the Hebrewes accounteth those bookes of the old Testament written in Greeke to be Apocryphal What say you to your Bishop Catharin who being one of the Councell of Trent after the determination of the Councell against assurance of saluation defendeth that such assurance notwithstanding that decree of the Councell may ordinarily be had by them that beleeue You would perswade vs that it is a ruled case of your Church long ago that the Scriptures are not sufficient without tradition What saith Scotus in this case Whatsoeuer pertaineth to heauenly and supernaturall knowledge and is necessarie to be knowne of men in this life is sufficiently deliuered in the holy scriptures The holy scripture saith Gerson is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church or else was Christ an vnperfect Lawgiuer I might runne on in the like course touching other points but these shal serue for a tast and so I passe ouer to your proofe that the learned on your side cannot possibly dissent one from another They which acknowledge that the definitiue sentence of the Pope is to be rested vpon as an vndoubted truth cannot possibly dissent in matters of faith But all Catholick learned men acknowledge that the Popes sentence is such Therefore no Catholicke learned men can possibly dissent in matters of faith All you conclude is that in matters determined by the Pope and a Councell your learned men cannot disagree because they hold that such a determination is certainly true yet for all this as I haue shewed your Church may be rent in peeces with contrarie opinions in matters of as great moment as most are in religion if for all this it cease not to be a true Church why should not the Protestants haue the like priuiledge who haue the same opinion of the Scriptures that you haue of the Pope Be not so iniurious to reason or blasphemous against God as to auouch that no controuersie can be ended by the word because diuers men will expound it diuersly For it is contrarie both to religion and sense to imagine that the Lord would giue his people such a Scripture as cannot be certainely vnderstood in all points necessarie to saluation but by I know not what reuelation to some one man More particularly I denie your Maior They that acknowledge such an authoritie in the Pope may yet differ in opinion about matters of faith I bring you example in that point of assurance wherein Catharin disputed against that doctrine which Sotus and your writers generally since the Councell of Trent affirme to haue bene the certaine decree of the Councell Yet were they both present in the Councell and none of the meanest there assembed The reason of that their dissent and the possibilitie of the like betwixt other men ariseth from this that decrees of Councels and Popes being set downe in writing may be diuersly interpreted and so the meaning of them mistaken as Catharin saith that he foresaw some men would misunderstand the Councell of Trent in that point This is all the inconueniences you can alledge in admitting the Scripture for Iudge and this followeth the decrees of Councels and Popes at the least as much as the writings of the holy Ghost
for you all that your faith might not faile As for your Glosse that our Sauiour prayed for him that his faith should not faile at least so far as to teach the Church a false faith what one word is there in the text to anow any such conceit Beside it is apparent that our Sauiour spake not of his Apostleship but of his faith as he was a Christian wherein he had failed finally if our Sauiour had not mightily vpheld him and in this faith was he fit to confirme his brethren as hauing had so extraordinary experience of Satans temptation But if this prayer were made for Peter that he might not teach false doctrine belike either he was more subiect to that danger then the rest of the Apostles or they were left by our Sauiour in a continuall danger of erring which opinion is a very neare neighbour to blasphemie But what a pitifull consequence is this Our Sauiour prayed that Peters faith might not faile therefore the Pope cannot erre All the hold you haue left is in the charge giuen to Peter to feede Christs sheepe that is to be painfull and faithfull in preaching of the Gospell And this interpretation is agreeable to reason that our Sauiour requiring a proofe of Peters loue should charge him to make it manifest by taking paines to feede his sheepe But your exposition is absurd whereby you would haue liuery and seisin of soueraigne authoritie in the Church giuen to him by these words If thou loue me saith our Sauiour according to your exposition take vpon thee the soueraigne gouernement of the Church This were a poore proofe of Peters loue which is there demaunded You will say the charge of feeding was common to all the Apostles but here the Lord speaketh particularly to Peter He doth indeed And do you not see the reason of it Peter because of his grieuous fall had need of such a charge both for his better autorizing and his greater care He speakes chiefly to Peter saith your frier Ferus and to him escecially commends his sheepe that he might vtterly abolish the remembrance of his deniall For because he had fallen more grieuously then the other and had more obstinately denied Christ he stood in need of peculiar charge lest by the remembrance of his deniall he might suspect that the common charge of the Apostleship belonged not to hm He remedies his denying thrice by his confessing thrice saith Theophylact the like hath Austin Peter blatted out his three denial saith Ierome by his three confessions So then all that you haue said of Peters not erring in matter of doctrine is nothing worth yet do we thankfully acknowledge that Peter could not erre in matter of faith but we say that this was no priuiledge peculiar to him but common also to the other Apostles by vertue of their Apostleship Wherein if no man succeed them as questionlesse there are now no Apostles no man can claime a priuiledge of not erring by any right from them or any promise made to them It is needlesse therefore to make many words concerning any successor of S. Peter onely I will signifie how vncertaine your Religion must needs be that depends vpon such points as these You tell vs the Pope cannot erre We beleeue you not because we know he is at the best but a learned man oftentimes not so much sometimes scarce able to vnderstand his grammer You proue he cannot erre because he is Peters successor We deny the consequence Because he may succeed Peter in place and yet not in office of Apostleship whereby Peter had that priuiledge But principally we deny your antecedent that the Pope is Peters successor Now we looke for some certain euident proofe But alas there is none to be had We therfore thus except against this imagined succession First we say there is no word of scripture to proue that euer Peter came at Rome How then can it be a matter of faith to hold that he was Bishop of Rome Do not say you must beleeue the Church for the question is whether you be the true Church or no. Secondly we say farther that it is somewhat vncertaine euen in humane stories whether euer Peter were at Rome or no and if it were certaine yet it were nor a certaintie of faith but of opinion But that the force of your argument and the truth of my answer may the better appeare I wil propound your reason in forme and my exceptions against it Peters successor cannot erre The Pope is Peters successor Therefore the Pope cannot erre To the Maior I answer that he which succeeds Saint Peter in his whole right or in all his priuiledges and namely that of his Apostleship cannot erre but any other successor of his may erre because his priuiledge of not erring is a propertie of his Apostleship The proofe of your Maior is thus to be framed He to whom the keyes are promised for whom Christ prayed that his faith might not faile whom he charged to feed his sheepe cannot erre But to Peters successor Christ promised the keyes for him he prayed that his faith might not faile him he charged to feed his sheepe Therefore Peters successor cannot erre I denie the Maior if you take it in such sense as though the power of not erring had bene conueyed to Peter by reason of this promise prayer and charge otherwise notwithstanding by him Peter I grant that he to whom this promise was made that is Peter could not erre yet was he not free from errour by vertue of this promise prayer or charge as I shewed before The Minor is vtterly false the promise was made in generall to all the Apostles the prayer and charge were peculiar to Peters persō for such especial reason as I shewed before concerning his temptation to denie Christ and his deniall of him But you tell vs that you doe not apply that charge of feeding the sheepe to Saint Peters successors without sufficient authoritie and reason Then questionlesse you must be able to shew vs some warrant for your doing out of the Scriptures For the testimonie or opinion of man is too weake a ground to build a matter of faith vpon And yet you bring vs nothing but the word of a man to perswade vs and scarce that too For whereas you alledge Chrysostome to countenance the matter it is but a copie of your countenance rather to feare then hurt vs. Chrysostome saith that our Sauiour shed his bloud to purchase those sheepe the care whereof he committed to Peter and his successors But who are these successors All ministers or at the least all Bishops If you haue read the place I need not proue it to you Chrysostome had caused Basil to be preferred to a Bishopricke against his will Hereupon Basil complaines of vnkind dealing The other to excuse himselfe vndertakes to shew that he had not onely not hurt him but also done
so long that few find leisure to reade them p. 7. Authority how a meanes to beget faith p. 60. One man of authoritie and learning drawes many atter him p. 121. B To beleeue in Christ what it is p. 26. To beleeue the Catholick Church what it is p. 156. We do not beleeue in y e church because that were to equal it with God p 157. They that truly beleeue in Christ shall not erre out of the way that leadeth to euerlasting life p. 232. Beleefe how wrought p 362. No man is forced to beleeue p. 361 362. No man withheld from beleeuing by God p. 58. A man may deliuer the truth and himselfe not beleeue p. 112. Beleeuing expresly implicitè p. 44 45. To beleeue that is to assent is not in the power or choice of mans will p. 40. For what reason we must beleeue or assent to the truth p. 30. 31. 42. 43. 47. True beleeuers cannot be separated frō Christ by death p. 167. Misbeleeuing and obstinately not beleeuing differ much p. 39. Misbeleeuing how far daminable p. 51. Obstinatly not beleeuing how not dam nable p 39. 40. 49. Refusing to beleeue against conscience alwayes damnable p. 40. 41. C Catharin foresaw the Councell of Trent would be misunderstood p 323. Catholick what it signifieth p. 280. 281. Few ordinarie Papists know 280. What the Catholike Church is why so called p. 280. 283. 284. 285. 286. 374. Not all one with Romane p. 7. As Papists vnderstand it a meere name p. 187. 199. 373. 407. Said to be Catholicke in sixe respects p. 281. In respect of al places persons p. 285. Catholicknesse seldome taken for vniuersalitie of time 281. 373. No particular Church Catholick as Papists vnderstand Catholick p. 3. The Church before our Sauiours comming not Catholicke as the Papists teach p 281. The Catholicke Church continueth frō Adam to the end of the world p. 160 164. 281. The church not called Catholick by any autor within the first 200. years p. 283. No man called a Catholick in the Apostles time p. 282. The word Catholicke not vsed in the Scriptures p. ead The title Catholicke not giuen to any of the Epistles by the Apostles themselues p. ead The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 151. Teaching contrary to the Catholicke Church how farre accursed p. 106. The Catholick Church is as wel in heauen as in earth p. 6. 8. Not visible p. 209. The Protestāts church Catholick p. 408. The Church what it is pag. 6. 10. 26. 71. 150. 169. 170. 175. 199. 225. 393. Not the Clergie onely p. 71. 123. 131. Papists define it with relatiō to the Pope of Rome p. 200. A Councel of Bishops y e Popish Church p. 136. 150. All professors are not the true Church 177. The congregation and gouernours are properly the Church where they liue p. 148. 227. Diuers significations of y e word Church 127. 128. see Ecclesia All beleeuers p. 120. 210. The elect beleeuers liuing in the world p. 201. 210. Generally a companie assembled or not assembled p. 210. Where the Church is to be sought p. 61. To be knowne only by y e scriptures p. 56 How it is to be knowne p. 221. How the pillar and ground of truth pa. 151. 152. Built and founded vpon the truth p 154. The faith therof how far to be enquired after p. 14. The authoritie thereof how farre to be yeelded to p. 45. 50 54. 91. 111. 151. 246. 250. 275. A maine delusion and needlesse p. 67. 72 90. 104. 238. 239. Cannot make that damnable which is not so of it selfe p. 49. Increaseth the sinne of not beleeuing when it determineth truly p. 49. Not spoken of in the old testament p. 97 How far commended to vs by the Scripture p. 96. 97. How Austin was moued to beleeue by the authoritie of the Church p. 93. The authoritie of the Church is great in matters not to be decided by scripture p. 95. 96. 155. 250. The testimonie and authoritie thereof is but humane p. 242. 243. What it is for a man to make himselfe iudge ouer the Church p. 249. Not to heare the Church p. 147. All Churches may erre p. 6. 46. 135. What is necessary to the being of a true Church p. 239. Many reprobates are members thereof according to the Papists p 164. Outward profession enough to make a man a mēber thereof according to y e Papists pa. 23. 123. 224. 264. 272. 350. Why we ought to seeke for and ioyne our selues to a true Church p. 219. 234. Gods true publicke worship cannot ordinarily be performed but in a true Church p. 219. The Church not holding the foundatiō of y e Apostles doctrine is to be left p. 14 Truth of doctrine in points fundamental a certaine marke of a true church p 240. 249. Succession to the Apostles in doctrine makes Churches Apostolicke p. 301. Was neuer without some diuersitie of opinions among the learned p. 311. The Church erred in diuers points within the first six hūdred years p. 163. How it is one p. 158. 160. 201. 215. 263. 264. 266. 284. 309. 318. The Protestants Church is one p. 406. Adam Abel Enoch c. were of the Protestants Church p. 341. 353. No writer within the first thousand yeres agrees with the Papists of the Councell of Trent in all points p. 341. The Popish Church hath not yet determined all points p. 14. 375. The Church y t ignorant Papists beleeue is a Priest or a Iesuit p. 15. 16. 17. 71. The Papists circle of the Scripture the Church p. 72. 91. 244. 246. 261. 413 How a whole Church may be counted holy 271. Many thousands neuer had knowledge of any Church p 55 No man can certainly know that there is any true Church but by the Scriptures p 244. The Church hath properly to do with none but Christians p. 90. 193. The Church was confined to Africke by the Donatists p. 3. 173. 216. 288. It is not all one to be in the Church and of the Church p. 212. What it is to sit in Moses chaire p. 140. 141. Who are meant by the Church beleeued in the Creed p. 157. 158. 168. 175 210. The elect called are properly the church p. 158. 159. 165. 168. 211. 212. 213. 217 265. That Church is not visible p. 174. 177. To that onely is continuance promised p. 217. The continuance of the Church dependeth vpō her being ioyned to Christ p. 168. The Church in the Apostles time did not alwayes hold the same points of faith p. 310. To beleeue in the Church were to equal it with God p. 157. The ceremonies before Christ were not continued without interruption pag. 170. 227. Communion with a Church may be refused by ignorance without pride p. 275. Confession to a minister neither commanded nor forbidden by Protestant Churches p. 342. Popish confession rather prouokes men to sinne then restraines them from it 342. 343. Credere Ecclesiam and Credere Ecclesiae
not all one but diuers p. 156. Credere Deum Credere in Deum differ very much p. 156. The perpetuall couenant p. 178. Christians how called Saints p. 349. What makes a man cease to be a Christian p. 273. There is no constraint vsed toward the will either in good or in euill pag. 344. How Constraint and Necessitie differ p. 344. 345. Councels may erre p. 260. Are hard to be vnderstood and may be misunderstood p. 11. 12. 323. Are bound to vse all meanes of disputation to find out the truth p. 13. Deliuer some things as probable coniectures p. 12. The course that hath bene and must alwayes be held by Popish generall Councels p. 330. Whether the Councell be aboue the Pope or no it is not determined p. 14 15. 375. The Councell hath often deposed the Pope 324. 325. The Councell of Constance makes the Pope subiect to the decrees of Councels p. 325. The Councell of the Elders among the Iewes p. 148. D What it is to denie Christ p. 190. 191. Alwayes damnable p. 190. Most deuotion in Popery where there is least vnderstanding p. 27. Disputation about points of Diuinitie necessary p. 13. Dissention among Papists about matters of faith p. 321. 322. 324. Bellarmine dissents in one point or other from almost all learned Papists before him p. 319. Euery dissent in opiniō makes not churches cease to be churches or holy p. 273. Dissention is better then maintaining of false doctrine or worship p. 319. Doubting of some points how it ouerthrowes not religion p. 50. How farre the doctrine of one that is lawfully sent may be examined pa. 253. E 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what it signifieth p. 128. Any assembly pag. ead Especially about matters of religion p. ead Generally all beleeuers p. 129. 201. 210. Particularly seuerall congregations p. 129. How arguments may be drawne from those places where the word is vsed p. 129. 130. Ecclesiasticall gouernours to be obeyed when they commaund that which is right p. 37. The Elect before the coming of Christ were chosen ordinarily out of the Iews since out of the Gentiles p. 207. The Elect onely are truly called p. 210. 211. May fall into grieuous sin and yet not cease to be elect p. 211. England not conuerted but peruerted by Austin the monke p. 377. Popish errors crept in by little and little vnperceiued p. 382. 383. 387. F Diuers significations of faith p. 6. 22. 28. Faith is absolutely necessary to saluatiō p. 22. 25. 26. Faith for assent to the truth what it is p. 35. 319. May be had without the autoritie of the Church p. 104. 113. Is in some greater in some lesse p. 31. Goeth before iustifying faith p. 33. Is accompanied with doubting p. 32. 33 Perfection thereof is to be labored for p. 32. Is tied to the Scripture not to y e church p. 46. May come by the preaching of the schismaticks or heretickes p. 34. Not to be built on the testimonie of man p. 329. How it is one p. 30. 31. 47. 51. Entire and infallible faith necessarie to saluation p. 73. How faith may be begotten p. 25. 26. 33 34. 60. 66. 75. 76. 113. 114. 235. Is to be learned of the Ministers not of the Church p. 234. Matters of faith according to Poperie 311. 320. Are indeede to be proued by scripture p. 250. 319. 320. Fundamentall points of faith p. 40. 239. Obstinately not beleeuing them damnable p. 40. No matter of faith according to Poperie till within these last 800 yeares 320. 321. All popish faith dependeth vpon the authoritie of the Church p. 25. The rule of faith what properties it must haue p. 61. 63. 64. 94. 108. Easinesse to be vnderstood no propertie of the rule p. 74 94. How farre the rule need be vnderstood p. 65 94. All truth must be prooued by the rule p. 84. 87. 115. What points the rule must resolue and how farre p. 84. Naturall wit and learning cannot be the rule of faith p. 98 99 100. No priuate spirit can be the rule of faith 105. The teaching of the Catholicke Church the rule of faith p. 61. 122. 42. He that hath Popish faith may be damned p. 23. Iustifying faith what it is p. 24. It is in the wil. p. 33. The iust liues by faith and where there is faith there is life p. 273. Liuely faith may be in him that is ignorant or misinstructed in many points p 274. The foundation of the Apostles doctrin is ouerthrowne by Poperie p. 375. Fasting not condemned but especially commended by Protestants p. 342. A Popish fast may be kept with gluttonie and drunkennesse p. 342. 366. The interpretations of the Fathers reuerenced by the Protestants p. 80. Frieries and monasteries p. 357. Saint Francis fiue wounds p. 358. G God calleth all men from damnation p. 56. Decreed all things that are or shal come to passe p. 345. Worketh not alike in good and euill actions p. 345. The glorie of God is the end of all religion p. 290. 296. The heathen had one soueraigne God aboue all the rest p. 387. To whom the rest were mediators of intercession for their fauorites as the Popish Saints are p. 387. How we may know that there is a gospell p. 245. The doctrine of the Gospell is simply necessarie to saluation not the books of the foure Gospels p. 243. The Gospell hung about the necke for a preseruatiue p. 78. Many nations in Austins time had not heard the Gospell p. 55. The Fathers thought the world should end presently after the preaching of the Gospell in all places p. 55. Many thousands died in the Apostles time ere they could by any meanes heare of the Gospell p. 181. 182. 183. H Herefie what it is p. 220. A worke of the flesh p. 52. 118. May be more generall for a time then true religion p. 293. No man can certainly know how long any heresie shall continue p. 293. Heresies spring from misunderstanding the Scripture p. 119 300. May by it be conuinced p. 119. Great hereticks haue had lawfull calling to the ministerie p. 36. 411. Hereticks pleade all for themselues that Papists do p. 119. They that refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture are hereticks p. 220. Some hereticks haue continued a long time in one and the same doctrine p. 263. Hereticks may be free from all grosse outward sinne p. 275. The first 400. yeares were most fruitfull in monstrous heresies p. 305. Some hereticall Churches may be true Churches p. 219. Some heretickes could pleade personall succession from the Apostles p. 299. Any hereticall Church may haue as good meanes to end controuersies as the Church of Rome hath p. 313. Holinesse whence it springeth p. 21. 360. Onely true inward holinesse can make a man a true Christian p. 269. Holinesse is resident onely in seuerall persons not in a companie p. 270. 249. Is inuested in the Popes person p. 356. I Comparison betwixt heathenish Popish Idolatrie p. 386. 387. Distinction
A TRIAL OF THE ROMISH CLERGIES TITLE TO THE CHVRCH By way of answer to a Popish Pamphlet written by one A. D. and entituled A Treatise of Faith wherein is briefly and plainly shewed a direct way by which euery man may resolue and settle his mind in all doubts questions and controuersies concerning matters of Faith By ANTONIE WOTTON In the end you haue three Tables one of the texts of Scripture expounded or alledged in this booke another of the Testimonies of ancient and later Writers with a Chronologie of the times in which they liued a third of the chiefe matters contained in the Treatise and Answer A. D. Esai 30. Haec est via ambulate in ea This is the way walke in it A. W. 2. Tim. 3. 15. The holy Scriptures are able to make thee wise to saluation LONDON Printed for Elizabeth Burby Widow and are to be sold at the signe of the Swan in Pauls Churchyard 1608. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER IT standeth not either with my occasions or my liking to make a long preface to that discourse which of it selfe seemeth to me ouerlong Onely giue me leaue to informe the vnlearned of some few things which may further him in the vnderstanding of it The manner of my answer is such as I haue vsed in my former writings First I set downe the Papists Treatise word forword then I draw it into a right forme of reasoning that the truth may more euidently appeare Lastly I frame as direct and plaine an answer to it as conueniently I can with shortnesse If thou desire fully to conceiue the whole course of this kind of answering I must intreate thee to haue recourse to the Preface which I set before my answer to the 12 Articles where the matter is deliuered largely and plainly enough For the vnderstanding of this present answer it may suffice thee to know what is the meaning of certaine words of Art as we call them which I am inforced to vse very often First then a Syllogisme is a certaine forme of reasoning which consisteth of three sentences whereof the second is drawne out of the first and the third ariseth as a conclusion from them both The first of these three is called the Proposition or Maior the second the Assumption or Minor both of them ioyntly together are named the Antecedent the third is termed the Consequent or Conclusion Therefore if I denie the Antecedent of a Syllogisme I meane to signifie that both the Proposition and the Assumption are false so must you conceiue seuerally that which soeuer of the three sentences I deny that I take to be false The consequence is the dependance of one vpon another so that when I say I deny the Consequence my meaning is that the latter part doth not follow vpon the former for example pag. 47. you haue this Syllogisme Antecedent Propos If faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire then it must be entire Antecedent Assūp But faith cannot be one vnlesse it be entire Consequent Concl. Therefore it must be entire My answer to this Syllogisme is I deny the consequence of your Proposition that is I say it doth not follow that faith must be entire if it cannot be one vnlesse it be entire There is also another forme of reasoning called an Enthymeme which indeed is nothing else but an vnperfect Syllogisme consisting of either part of the Antecedent and of the Consequent To this I answer by denying either the Antecedent or the Consequence For example pag. 177. Our Sauiour himselfe citeth some words out of that Chapter and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe Therefore that Chapter is to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church To this Enthymeme I answer thus this Consequent doth not follow vpon that Antecedent which is all one as if I should haue said I deny the Consequence that is I say that Chapter is not therefore to be vnderstood of our Sauiour Christ and his Church because our Sauiour citeth some words out of it and expoundeth them to be fulfilled in himselfe An example where the Antecedent is denied though the Enthymeme be not plainly set downe you haue pag. 327. The Pope is Peters successor Therefore he cannot erre Here I deny the Antecedent that is I say it is false that the Pope is Peters successor And this may serue for sufficient instruction to the vnlearned that they may be able to vnderstand and iudge both of the reasons and the answers to them It remaineth that I cōmend thee Christian Reader whosoeuer thou art that vnfainedly desirest the aduancing of Gods glorie by thine owne saluation to the gracious direction of the holy Spirit that he may teach thee to vnderstand and beleeue to the praise of his name and thy present and euerlasting comfort through Iesus Christ our onely Lord and Sauiour Amen From my house on the Tower hill Ianuary 20. 1607. Thine assured in the Lord Iesus Antony Wotton A. D. §. 1. A TREATISE OF FAITH WHEREIN IS BRIEFLY AND PLAINLY SHEWED A DIRECT WAY by which euery man may resolue settle his mind in all doubts questions or controuersies concerning matters of Faith A. W. THis Title is like the Apothecaries boxes pots which promise goodly matters by the inscriptions but within haue either nothing or some ordinarie drugs A treatise of faith shewing a direct way by which euery man may resolue and settle his mind in all doubts questions or controuersies concerning matters of faith makes shew of instructing him that shall reade it what faith is what kinds of faith there are and aboue all what a iustifying faith is how to be attained vnto how vsed to the obtaining of euerlasting life These principally and many more like these are required in a Treatise of faith of neuer a one whereof there is any one Chapter or peece of a Chapter in this whole Discourse Neither hath he done that litle he hath done either briefly as the heaping vp of vnnecessarie testimonies in matters not doubtfull in the verie first Chapter euidently proues or plainly because though in his Preface he sets down what he meanes to proue yet it is verie hard for a man to apply his seuerall Chapters to the generall matter propounded by him as the handling of them will shew A. D. §. 2. A Table or briefe summary of the whole treatise Chap. 1. That faith is absolutely necessary to saluation Chap. 2. That this faith is but one Chap. 3. That this one faith must be infallible Chap. 4. That this one infallible faith must be entire Chap. 5. That Almighty God hath prouided some sufficient meanes whereby all sorts of men may at all times learne this one infallible and entire faith Chap. 6. What conditions or properties are requisite in this rule or meanes prouided by Almighty God Chap. 7. That Scripture alone cannot be this rule or meanes Chap. 8. That no naturall wit of man or humane learning either by interpreting Scripture or otherwise can be this
this world but the whole societie of the faithful from time to time But these gay shewes of Catholike Church Vniuersalitie antiquitie vnitie succession and such like are fit to deceiue the ignorant for which purpose your discourses are written with whō they preuaile by the iust iudgement of God who sends them strong delusions that they may beleeue lyes because they haue not embraced the loue of the truth that they might be saued A. D. §. 6. First because it is very briefe and compendious and consequently such as euery one might haue leysure and should not be much weary to reade it A. W. You deale in your corrupt writings as leud men do in slanderous reports who speake anie thing at aduenture though neuer so vntrue or vnlikely It is hard but some men will either beleeue or make doubt of it at the least So all men reade your writings you care not Though they that are of knowledge and iudgement discerne your falshood yet it is twentie to one but some ignorant fellow will light on them that may be seduced And this practise you follow the rather because you are for the most part out of feare of being shamed by confutation for that you are vnknowne and know well inough that our answers to you are commonly and many times must be so large that one amongst manie can hardly find leisure to reade them Whereas if the authors of your treatises were knowne amongst vs and our answers applied shortly and plainely to the verie point of the argument that being disrobed of the idle ornaments you cloath it withall and laid naked to the view of true reason we should haue as few of your discourses as we haue now of your replies to our refutations of your treatises which are so few that in many yeares it is rare to haue anie second charge by you vnlesse it be in such a fight as requires no more but a brauado without coming to handie blowes A. D. §. 7. Secondly because it standing onely vpon few but most certaine conclusions and grounds is free from many cauils of the captious which more ample discourses are subiect vnto A. W. To speake truly and properly there is but one conclusion in your whole Treatise as I haue shewed out of this your Preface Against which we also oppose one as briefe and more certaine then yours Your conclusion is That the faith and beliefe which the authority of the Romane Church doth commend vnto vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith Ours That the faith which the Scripture teacheth vs is the onely true faith If you speake of the seuerall cōclusions belonging to the proofe of the generall there are at the least as many as there are Chapters But if you meane the three grounds which you signifie before and repeate afterwards they are so farre from being certaine that there is neuer a one of them true as you vnderstand them A. D. §. 8. Thirdly because the matter handled in it is not very high nor hard but common easie and plaine and such as may be vnderstood of any who hauing but a reasonable wit or vnderstanding wil carefully read it as the importance of the matter requireth with iudgement deliberation and which is chiefe with prayer to God and a resolute good will to follow that which he shall find to be right A. W. The matter is as hard by your handling of it as sophistrie can well make it as high as the deepe foundation of religion Yet I denie not but it may be vnderstood by a man of such parts and paines as you require and adde farther that the like may be auowed of the true grounds of religion as they are contained in the Scripture to the reading and meditation whereof the Lord himself hath promised such a blessing as your treatises if they were neuer so true could not looke for Is not the fountaine better then the chanell A. D. §. 9. Fourthly because these fewe plaine points which are here set downe include all other and whosoeuer shall by the helpe of Gods grace and the force of these or other reasons yeeld assent to the points proued in this discourse must by consequence without further disputing or difficultie yeeld to all particular points which the aforesaid Church commendeth for points of faith and will be moued to settle himselfe in the stedfast beliefe of all For if he once admit that there is a Church or company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points and that this Church is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth and further that this Church which is thus taught and must teach vs is no other but that visible company which professeth the Romane faith then he shall not need to straine his wits in studying or to wast words in wrangling about particular points of controuersies or to vse any such troublesome and vncertaine meanes to find out the truth but may easily and most certainly be instructed in all by onely enquiring and finding out which all sorts of men may easily do what is generally holdē by the Church for truth in all particular points whereof they doubt A. W. If these few points be so conuenient because in thē all other are included why should not our doctrine of the Scripture be as conuenient by the same reason Let vs compare our assertions together The first of yours is That a man must admit that there is a company of men on earth infallibly taught by the holy Ghost what is the true faith in all points The first of ours That a man must beleeue that there is a written word of God wherein the holy Ghost hath certainely taught whatsoeuer is needfull to be knowne to saluation Your second is That this company of men is by Gods appointment to teach all men in all matters of faith which is the infallible truth Our second That this written word of God is appointed by him to teach all men in all matters of faith what is true what false Your third That this company of men is no other but the visible company which professeth the Romane faith Our third That this written word is no other but the bookes of the old and new Testament The proofe of your positions and the exceptions you take against ours shal be handled if it please God in their due places in the meane time if any mā be troubled with those ordinarie doubts which you haue buzzed into the common peoples eares concerning the vncertainty and hardnesse of the Scriptures let me intreat him to stay himselfe a while vpon these considerations First that the bookes of the old and new Testament acknowledged by vs are also confessed by you to be the verie word of God in the penning whereof the penners were so directed by the holy Ghost that they could not erre Therefore whatsoeuer the meanes
compendious resolution of faith Which before I examine let me here againe put you in minde that you condemne the greatest part of all your Schoolemens writings as needlesse and fruitlesse doubts questions and disputes and call them vnsetled minds that spend their time and spirits in such matters And surely such were many of the points they handled hauing nothing in them but vanitie and vexation of spirit as may appeare to name one for all by their articles and questions vpon Lombard and Thomas about the Masse But is anie man to be found so shamelesse as that he dare call it a needlesse and fruitlesse labour to search the Scripture for the finding out of the truth in such matters as are necessarily to be beleeued for the attaining to saluation Doth the neglect of this dutie bring a man good leisure and liking to build himselfe vp in the loue of God What loue of God can there be where there is no delight in his word Dauid makes it his meditation day and night and preferres the sweetnesse he finds in it and the account he makes of it before honie and the honie combe fine gold and all maner of riches But what should I heape vp vnnecessarie testimonies in a case not doubtfull Is it possible they should be Christians that make so small reckoning of the testament of Iesus Christ Can he be said truly to loue his father that neuer cares to see what his fathers loue to him is but contents himselfe with so much knowledge of it as men list to impart to him yea that knowes not whether he had such a father or no but onely as other men haue told him We say not that euery man is bound vpon hazzard of his saluation to know euery point of difference betwixt you and vs or to vnderstand the sense of euery place of Scripture but that all true Christians must labour for as much knowledge as by diligent hearing reading and meditating of the Scirptures they can attaine to Neither shall they by this study and endeuour either abate their loue to God or depriue themselues of the sense of his loue to them Nay rather both the one and the other shal be increased when a man shall feele the work of Gods spirit in his heart kindling in him a desire to vnderstand the mystery of his redemption by Iesus Christ to comprehend the infinitenesse of the loue of God the Father and enlightning him to conceiue that which by his owne skill he neuer were able to discerne But they that follow your resolution neuer come rightly to vnderstant what the loue of God to them is but if they will consider things aduisedly must needes thinke God hath dealt hardly with them as with seruants not with sonnes whom he shuts out from the knowledge of his will and view of his wisdome maiestie manifested in the writings of the old and new Testament affoording them no more of that heauenly Manna but such chippings and parings as their idle and prowd prelates will vouchsafe to cast them He that finds the loue of God toward him in opening to him the true sense of the Scripture in matters concerning his euerlasting saluation doth beare more true loue to God for it then any Papist can do that glorieth in his blind obedience to men maketh the end of his louing God the deseruing of euerlasting life by his ignorance of the Scriptures As for true holinesse of life whence doth it arise but from the feeling of Gods loue to vs whereby the spirit of God which dwels in vs inflames our hearts with the affections of kind children to so louing a father Can you imagine that he who hath at most but a kind of perswasion of I know not what holy inspirations blessings of Gods spirit vpon some Priests or Iesuits word can loue God as truely and feruently as he that knowes by the truth of God in the Scripture that the spirit of God dwels in all Gods children one of whom the same spirit assures him he is Your Papist must liue holily that he may become the temple of God a true Christian knowes he cannot liue holily but by the holy Ghosts dwelling in him and making him the temple of God And can it be a question whether of these two loueth God more deatly But I haue bene too long in your Preface Now to the Treatise it selfe A. D. A TREATISE OF FAITH CHAP. I. That true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation A. W. TRue faith whether we take it for an assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed or for beleeuing in God is absolutely necessary onely for those which are come to yeares of discretion not for them that die in their infancie Which I deliuer not by way of confutation but of explication because I am perswaded you and I agree in this point A. D. §. 1. Whosoeuer hath a true desire to please God and an earnest care to saue his owne soule the which should be the chiefest desire and care of euery Christian man must first resolue and settle himselfe in a sound beliefe of matters of faith holding it for a most assured ground That there is a faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot possibly please God nor consequently be saued sith none are saued that do not please God A. W. Faith being so diuersly taken both in Scripture and other writings it had bin fit for him that professeth plainnesse either to haue set downe the seuerall significations of the word or to haue shewed in what sense he himselfe vseth it in this treatise Bellarmine giues it foure significations Sanders six Vega nine Yea this author himselfe as it shall appeare taketh it not alwayes in one and the same sense but diuersly as it best fitteth his present purpose especially in one of these two significatiōs either for the habit or quality of faith whereby we are enabled to beleeue or for the obiect of the same faith that is for the things that are to be beleeued Example we haue of both in this first Chapter Matters of faith are such points as we are bound to beleeue That faith which whosoeuer wanteth cannot please God is the qualitie of faith in the soule And these diuers vses of the word are within the compasse of three lines To which I may adde a third sense out of this same chapter where by faith actuall beleeuing is vnderstood as in the places of Scripture alledged For i. is not the hauing but the vsing of faith that iustifieth So thē where he saith that true faith is absolutely necessary to saluation his meaning is that no man can be saued vnlesse he do assent to the truth of those matters which God hath enioyned all men to beleeue or that there are certaine points to be beleeued without assent to the truth whereof no man can be saued But what need was there of this discourse since both parties that were to conferre
saued that doth not certainly beleeue that there is no name vnder heauen by which he may be saued but the name of Iesus and that in him there is saluation yet may a man attaine to saluation that is not resolued of many points which are determined by the Church that is by any company of men whatsoeuer Secondly faith is necessary to saluation because no man can be saued that doth not beleeue in Iesus Christ that is that doth not wholy renounce himselfe and rest vpon Iesus Christ to be iustified by his obedience and sacrifice But the Lord hath not so tied his owne hands that he cannot worke both these in the heart of whō he wil without some man to tell him by word of mouth that he must thus beleeue The proofe you bring out of the Apostle is vtterly false both for the translation and application The word vsed by the Apostle is no where to be found either in the passiue or middle voyce as it must needs be if it should signifie shall not be knowne but is meerly actiue the first present tense of the Imperatiue moode or as Ramus cals it the first future infect and is as much in English as let him be ignorant so do the learned of your owne side translate it Vatablus Pagninus Caietan Salmero so do they expoūd it as if he should say quoth Vatablus If any man will not know these things and will be ignorant let him be ignorant at his owne peril I will not striue saith Cardinal Caietan with thē that know not these to be the Lords cōmandemēts but if any man be ignorāt let him be ignorāt The same sense giue Chrysostom Theophylact and Oecumenius As if the Apostle by a kind of ironicall concession should as it were leaue euery man to himself to think and do in those matters as should please him And therefore Chrysostome expounds it by that If any man list to be contentious we haue no such custom nor the Churches of God As if he should say let him that will refuse to be ruled by me in these cases it is enough for vs that the Churches of God and we Apostles haue no such custome It is further to be obserued that the Apostle speaks not of such points as by their being vnknown might endanger a mans saluatiō but of matters of lesse momēt cōcerning the orderly and decent cariage of things in the publick congregation This Chrysostome notes saying that the Apostle doth not vse thus kind of reproofe euery where but when the faults are not great But it is an exceeding great fault for a man not to acknowledge the truth of those points without beleefe whereof he cannot be saued Therefore in Chrysostome his iudgement the Apostle speaks not in that place of the want of such a faith as is so necessary a means to saluation as that without it a man cannot attaine thereunto A. D. CHAP. II. That this faith necessary to saluation is but one A. W. If the plainnesse pretended in the title of this booke had bene truly intended and performed we should not haue had the contents of this chapter so obscurely deliuered This faith necessarie to saluation is but one VVhat should a man make of these words An ordinarie Reader would thinke you meant that there is but one kinde of faith necessarie to saluation how easie had it bene for you to haue said so plainely to the capacitie of the simplest But it is a humor in men commonly to wonder at the depth of that they vnderstand not and these great schollers may not abase themselues to speake like vs of the meaner sort and yet a wise Philosopher said That a man should thinke as the wise doe but speake as the people doe But we must remember that in poperie there is most deuotion where there is least vnderstanding Well let vs take the words as they are once his meaning is as himselfe afterwards expresseth it that the beleefe of one man differeth not from the beleefe of another and that euerie faithfull man beleeueth euerie point for one and the same reason A. D. §. 1. This faith which I haue shewed to be absolutely necessarie to saluation is but One onely This is plainly prooued out of Saint Paul who saith Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma signifying that like as there is but one Lord and one Baptisme so there is but One faith A. W. Faith as I shewed before is taken sometimes for the habit vertue gift grace qualitie call it what you will whereby we haue power to beleeue sometimes for the points that are to be beleeued Here the question is of the former as any man would gather both by the title and by some of the proofes The first whereof is a place of Scripture There is one Lord one faith one baptisme of which I say first as of the whole Chapter that it might well haue bene spared considering that we acknowledge the truth of the matter in the same sense in which himselfe propoūds it Secondly I think it had bin a point of good iudgement to haue forborne the allegation of a text so insufficient for the purpose for the Apostle hath no meaning to shew by those words one faith that one mans beliefe taking faith for the inward quality differeth not from another mans but that all the beleeuing Ephesians and so all true Christians professe one and the same religion as they worship the same Lord and receiue the same baptisme and therefore ought to agree in peace one with another and not to make the gifts of God diuersly bestowed vpon diuers men an occasion of schisme and diuision This might you haue learned of Alphonsus Salmero a Iesuite who brings this place to proue that nownes that signifie qualities or habits are taken also for the obiects to which they appertaine as faith signifieth saith he the articles which are beleeued by faith according to that of Paul There is one faith The like hath Bellarmine By the name of faith saith he speaking of this place the obiect of faith seemes to be noted out So that the sense is we all beleeue the same thing as we haue bene all baptized after the same manner One faith saith Catharin because we beleeue one thing And this interpretation is acknowledged for good by Lombard Thomas and Caietane though they allow of the other also which notwithstanding I am the bolder to refuse because the places you bring out of the fathers agree better to the former exposition A. D. §. 2. The same is confirmed with the authoritie of the ancient Fathers Nisi vna est saith S. Leo Fides non est dicente Apostolo Vnus Dominus vna fides vnum baptisma Vnlesse it be one it is not faith sith the Apostle saith one Lord one faith one Baptisme A. W. Faith that is sound saith
of this matter we must speake more at large hereafter A. D. CHAP. III. That this one faith necessarie to saluation is infallible A. W. If you had bene desirous that euery man should vnderstand you instead of infallible you would rather haue said certaine or without doubting especially since your selfe diuers times vsed the word in the passiue signification for that which may not be doubted of as being most certainly true In this sense you say afterward in this Chapter that the word of Christ is absolutely infallible and againe in the end of the Chapter that we must account the word of faith absolutely infallible A. D. §. 1. This one faith without which we cannot be saued must be infallible and most certaine This is cleare because faith is that credit or inward assents of minde which we giue to that which God who is the prime or first veritie which neither can deceiue nor be deceiued hath reuealed vnto vs by meanes of the preaching or teaching of the true Church as we may gather out of S. Paul when he saith Quomodo credent ei quem non audierunt quomodo audient sine praedicante quomodo praedicabunt nisi mittantur c. ergo fides ex auditu auditus autem per verbum Christi The sense of which words is that sith we cannot beleeue vnlesse we heare nor beare vnlesse some lawfully sent do preach vnto vs faith is bred in vs by hearing and yeelding assent or credit to the word of Christ made knowne vnto vs by the preaching of the true Church which onely is lawfully sent of God wherefore like as the word of Christ being God is absolutely infallible so also the credit giuen to this word which is our faith must needs be also most certaine and infallible A. W. The title and beginning of the Chapter speake of faith as it is a grace or qualitie but the conclusion of the Chapter is concerning the infallibilitie or certaintie of the word of faith as you call it that is the thing to be beleeued so do you run from one thing to another But I may say of this Chapter as I haue done in part of the former that we acknowledge the truth of both these points and thinke your labour in prouing them altogether vnnecessary only in the former there may be some doubt For though it be out of question that we are to endeuor for the perfection as of all other graces of God so of that faith wherby we assent to the truth of that which God hath reuealed yet it comes to passe sometimes by our infirmitie that our faith is accompanied with doubting And this as we heard before Sotus grants to be true of a Catholicke faith and prooues it by the prayer of the Apostles Lord increase our faith to which I may adde the like request of him that crying with teares said Lord I beleeue helpe my vnbeleefe But if any man desire to see a liuely patterne of this doubting let him looke vpon Dauid as he describes himselfe in the Psalme Certainly I haue cleansed my heart in vaine and washed my hands in innocency c. Then thought I to know this but it was too painfull for me And afterward so foolish was I and ignorant I was a beast before thee And yet the point he speaks of is a rulde case in Diuinitie propounded by him in the beginning of the Psalme namely that the prouidence of God watcheth ouer the righteous for their good and that he will be auenged of the wicked That faith which some Diuines call historicall is indeed such an assent goeth alwaies before iustifying faith at the least for the beleeuing of so much as is necessarie to iustification Which I note by the way that no man may be deceiued with an opinion that iustifying faith is an assent to the truth of Gods word whereas it is quite of another nature and hath place in the will rather then in the vnderstanding If you had said that God hath reuealed his truth to vs by the preaching of them that were in the true Church you had spokē more plainely and truely But how the true Church or any Church at all should be said to preach I professe I vnderstand not Neither can any such thing be gathered out of Saint Paule who speakes not a word of the Church true or false And to say the truth what a strange kind of speech is it to say The Church is sent to preach when as onely the Ministers preach and not the Church vnlesse perhaps Iohn Baptist only for a time was the Church whē he preached alone before our Sauiour was baptised But this same Church is a goodly faire word and couers a great many foule errours with the very name of it The Apostles who were they that God employed at the first beginning of the Gospell both in preaching and writing were vndoubtedly of the true Church both in respect of their election to euerlasting life and of the truth of the doctrine they held It is also true that God ordinarily begetteth faith in the hearts of men by the ministers of the true Church But it is not true that such an assent as you speake of cannot be wrought in a man by the ministery of Schismaticks or Hereticks though they be perhaps in neither respect any members of the true Church Did not Arius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius and many other wretched hereticks assent in generall to the truth of God in Scriptures because they held it to be the very true word of God And might not men by their preaching be brought to the same faith For our parts we make no doubt but that in the middest of ignorance and superstition many came to this faith by the preaching of your Antichristian Priests and so do at this day yea we adde further that we doubt not many haue wee are sure they might and may attaine to the same faith what if I say to iustifying faith too without any preaching by the reading of the Scriptures For since it is partly the matter that must argue the Scripture to be the word of God partly the maiesty which any man may discerne in the manner of writing vnlesse it can be poooued out of the Scripture that the holy Ghost will not worke by these vpō the heart of him that readeth but only of him that heareth a man expound this word vnto him I see no sufficient reason why faith may not be had by reading where Gods ordinance of preaching is onely wanting and not wilfully neglected But you will say the Apostle tyeth faith to hearing First this is little aduantage for you Papists amongst whom til shame emulation draue you to it within these last fiftie or threescore yeares no man could ordinarily heare the word of God in any tongue that he vnderstood and so all your hearing was to no purpose Secondly if hearing be sufficient where there is nothing but reading without any
must be entire Can you giue me a sufficient reason of this difference A. D. §. 1. This one infallible faith without which we cannot please God must also be entire whole and sound in all points and it is not sufficient to beleeue stedfastly some points misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately other some or any one A. W. There are two things to be considered in your propounding of this questiō concerning the entirenesse of faith in what sense all points must be beleeued and what it is to misbeleeue or obstinately not to beleeue Whatsoeuer is deliuered in Scriptures is a matter of faith because it is the word of God who can neither deceiue nor be deceiued and hath propounded it to men for a truth to be beleeued But yet there is a great difference betwixt things set downe in Scripture and that difference is in 2. respects For neither are all points therein true in the like sense neither is there like necessitie of beleeuing euery particular Concerning the former the generall reason why all things in the Scriptures are true is this because all things therein are recorded deliuered by God for true therfore questionles they are true yet as once before I noted onely so farre forth true as they are intended to be held for true by the holy Ghost the author of the Scripture Whatsoeuer is registred therein by vvay of report as a story is to be taken as true onely in respect of story that we may not doubt whether such or such things were done and said or no. There is no doubt to be made but that the fiue bookes of Moses the bookes of Iosua Iudges Ruth Samuel Kings Chronicles c. containe a true and certaine story of those things whereof they intreate But in these bookes we haue some worthy and holy speeches of godly men some leud and blasphemous words of profane wretches The former are to be acknowledged for the truth of God euery way As for example it is true that Iacob vttered those prophesies of the twelue Patriarks his sonnes and it is also true that those prophesies of his were the very truth of God It is as true that Rabshaketh deliuered those blasphemous threanings against the Lord and his people but it is not true that those words came from God as Iacobs did so Iacobs were to be taken as euery way true Rabshakeths onely as truly reported from his mouth Now that all points are not alike necessary to saluation no man can make any question if he remember that a man may be saued though he haue neuer heard of many things that are recorded in the Scripture which is the case generally of the greatest part both of Protestants and Papists and hath alwayes bene the case of Christians in all ages As for misbeleeuing or not beleeuing obstinately one of these differs a great deale from the other and the latter of the two was needlesse if the former can be proued For if mistaking some point of doctrine be damnable it is out of doubt that obstinate refusing to beleeue the same point must needs make a man much more liable to damnation But indeed misbeleeuing is not in all points so dangerous though of it selfe as a sinne it is subiect to be punished with the eternall wrath of God in hell fire To make plaine that I say A man may misunderstand diuers places of Scripture and thereupon hold that to be true which is false and yet be saued for all this error For example that I may giue instāce in a matter of no small importance How many Christians yea how many great Diuines haue bin deceiued in the vnderstanding of our Sauior Christs genealogie and by their misconceiuing of the Euangelists haue fallen into no smal error that Salomon was the father of the Messiah By which opinion to omit many other things that I may not be too long the truth of a prophesie vttered by Ieremy which makes Ieconiah childlesse hath bin ouerthrown from whom our Sauiour must needs haue descended if he had bene the sonne of Salomon as some erroneously gather out of Saint Mathew and not of Nathan as it is manifest by S. Luke he was Shall I exemplifie this matter in another point The Apostles themselues for a long time euen til after the ascension of our Sauiour into heauen and till the comming of the holy Ghost vpō them looked for the establishing of an earthly kingdome in this world by their Lord and maister Did they not slip into this error by misbeleeuing the prophesies of the old testament concerning the Messiahs kingdome yet were they out of danger of damnation and in the state of grace all that time because they rested on our Sauiour Christ as the spirituall Sauiour of their soules that should tak away their sinnes and bring them to euerlasting life in heauen though they erroneously hoped for a temporall kingdome also The other branch of this distribution which concernes obstinately not beleeuing though it be a farre greater sinne then the former yet it is not such that it doth absolutely cut a man off from saluation This obstinate refusall to beleeue is either of ignorance or of wilfulnesse if a Christian stand stifly in some false opinion which he certainly holdeth to be true in his error the fault of his iudgement may continue without the damnation of his soule If wilfully he refuse to beleeue that truth of God which he discerneth no man can promise him any hope of saluation without true repentance This I speake vpon a supposition that it is possible for a man not to beleeue that which he perceiueth to be true though indeed there is a contradiction implied herein For to beleeue is to assent to the truth which a man cannot chuse but do that sees it that is no man can think the same thing in the same respects true and false But this not beleeuing in such a case is a frowardnesse of the heart not yeelding to acknowledge that he knowes rather then a false opinion in the braine by which a man is misled We are further to obserue that there is a second difference in this point in regard of the matter which is not beleeued If a man in his ignorance deny to beleeue that there is but one God that there are three persons that Iesus is the Messiah that we are redeemed by him that we are iustified by faith without workes or any other fundamentall point of religion he doth thereby shut himselfe out from all possibilitie of saluation as long as he continues in these errors or any of them But other points there are and those many more in number which a man by reason of his ignorance may obstinately refuse to beleeue and yet not be excluded out of heauen for such his error Let the former examples serue for breuities sake I haue bene longer then I would or meant to be but I was desirous to speake plaine
not Is this companie of Clergie men onely or of Lay men also If of them then belike these are none of the Church But let vs grant that which as it shal appeare in due place is neither true nor probable that the Clergie onely is the church howsoeuer they may be so representatiuely What assurance can any man haue who liueth not in the time of this assembly I might say in the place too where it is that there was any such assembly that the greatest part agreed to the approouing of such a translation that this is the translation they agreed to Especially seeing two Popes since the last Conuenticle of Trent haue set out your authentical translation diuersly Whether of these two was agreed on How shall I be infallibly assured that these Popes altered nothing in the translation allowed by the Councel Shall I say more What if this Councell vsed not the meanes of examining this translation by the originals What if most of them as it is most certaine had no skil in the originals and so did but leape after some few like sheepe not vnderstanding what they did yet the shoot Anchor holds the Pope allowed of their iudgement What if his skil were but indifferent He could not erre you will say What was the reason why he allowed that translation because the Councel examined and approued it But without him al they might erre especially if they did not vse all good meanes to find out the truth VVho assured him they did Shall we haue the holy Ghost like Mahomets doue to come and certifie the Pope of this doubt This is a matter of fact and in things of such nature the Pope may erre euen iudicially Well I will deale bountifully with you Put case all this be true How shal I attaine to infallible assurance hereof Forsooth some Priest or Frier Iesuite or other telleth me that things so passed and therefore I am bound to beleeue it Then my faith resteth not vpon the authority of the Church but vpō the credit of him that saith he is sent by the Church to make such report Thus it cometh to passe that the beleefe of vnlearned Papists is nothing else but a perswasion they haue that such a priest knoweth what is true and will not deceiue them with any false informations Tell me not of other Priests and Iesuits consenting with him that was thy spirituall father for all these together if there were ten times as many of them are not the Church in which onely this infallible authoritie is to be found And so there can be no such assurance in any vnlearned Papist of the truth of your vulgar or any other translation I confesse it is against both Charitie and Ciuilitie to suspect a man of vntruth without iust cause of suspition but such fruites grow vpon such rootes of Poperie that a man must needs be either vnciuill in giuing credit to nothing though vpon neuer so good reason or else ridiculously credulous in beleeuing euery thing that shal be told him though neuer so much against reason But the spirit of God teacheth and perswadeth men to beleeue the Church Are you they that mocke at priuate spirits and yet are glad to flie to that helpe Is it not as likely the spirit should teach men which is the Scripture as which is the Church And assure them of a translation as of this or that mans ordination and priesthood If such proofes as I haue spoken of before will serue wee are nothing inferiour to you but as well for weight as number superiour If you say the Scriptures enioyne vs to beleeue the church How shall I be assured that they are not in those places that seeme to enioyne such a beleefe falsly translated Because the Church saith they are true in all points What if the Church be deceiued It cannot be Who saith so The Scripture Who tels you the Scripture saith so The Church What is to be ridiculous if this be not It might seeme exceeding strange that euer any reasonable man should be ledde away with such fopperies if the holy Ghost had not foretold vs of it that God would send men strong delusions that they should beleeue lies that all they might be damned vvhich beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse These delusions poore ignorant Papists trust to and to none more then to those which are the maynest of all the authoritie of the Church and impossibilitie of the Popes erring to which whosoeuer firmely cleaueth can neuer be good Christian or faithfull subiect in any Church or state whatsoeuer A. D. §. 2. Secondly they faile in the second condition or propertie which the rule of faith should haue For the Scriptures themselues alone in what language soeuer be obscure and hard to be vnderstood at least to vnlearned men who cannot reade them and therefore the Scriptures alone cannot be vnto vnlearned men a sufficient rule to instruct them in all points of faith as is plaine For locke vp an vnlettered man and an English Bible for a time in a studie and hee will come forth I warrant you as ignorant in matters of faith as he went in if wee adde no other meanes to instruct him but the bare written word which hee cannot reade And yet vnlearned men may be saued and saued they cannot be without an entire and vnfallible faith and this they cannot haue vnlesse there be some certaine rule and vnfallible meanes prouided by Almightie God meet for their capacitie to teach them this faith and Scripture alone as is now proued is not a rule meete for the capacitie of vnlearned men or apt to instruct them sufficiently in all points of faith But what speake I onely of vnlearned men sith also learned men cannot by onely reading the Scriptures be vnfallibly sure that they doe rightly vnderstand them For while they vnderstand one way perhaps they ought to vnderstand another way that which they vnderstand plainly and literally ought perhaps to be vnderstood figuratiuely and mystically and contrarie that which they vnderstand figuratiuely ought perhaps to be vnderstood properly And seeing that it is most certaine that all doe not expound right sith the exposition of one is contrarie to the exposition of another as right is neuer contrarie to right how should one be vnfallibly sure that hee onely expoundeth right hauing nothing to assure him but the seeming of his owne sense and reason which is as vncertaine and fallible as the iudgements and perswasions of other men who seeme to themselues to haue attained as wel as he the right interpretation or sense Moreouer there be many things required to the perfect vnderstanding of Scripture which are found but in very few and those also in whom those gifts are are not vnfallibly sure that they are so guided by those gifts but that both they and others may prudently doubt lest sometimes in their priuate expositions as men they erre And consequently their priuate
the scripture For how many points of doctrine are there not yet decreed of by your Church How many thousand places of scripture not yet expounded by it If then it be no hindrance to saluation for a man to be ignorant of the truth in many points and places of scripture may not the written word of God be the rule of faith though diuers things in it be not certainly vnderstood A. D. §. 3. Thirdly they faile in the third condition For the Scriptures are not so vniuersall as the rule of faith had need to be For this rule ought to be so vniuersall that it may be able absolutely to resolue and determine all doubts and questions of faith which eyther haue bene or may hereafter be in controuersie for otherwise there were not sufficient meanes prouided by which schisme and heresies might be auoided vnitie of faith so necessarie to saluation might be conserued among Christian men A. W. The last imperfection you note in the Scripture whereby you would make it insufficient to be the rule of faith is the scantnesse of it that it conteineth not all things necessarie to be beleeued which you go about to prooue thus The rule of faith must be able absolutely to resolue all doubts of faith that haue bene or may be The Scripture is not able absolutely to resolue all such doubts Therefore the Scripture is not the rule of faith I should haue let your proposition passe without any question but that I am so vsed to your craft in speaking doubtfully For feare whereof I would faine vnderstand what the reason is why you put in absolutely If your intent be to signifie that the resolution must be certainly true you might haue spoken plainly as you meant But it may be you vnderstand by resoluing absolutely such a kinde of resolution as shall take away all outward contention which sometimes is indeed brought to passe by the Decrees of your Popes no man daring for feare of his life once to open his mouth against them Such a resolution the scripture cannot giue neither is it to be looked for that the rule of faith should be of that nature It is enough that it shew plainly and certainly what is true in all matters of faith Secondly the controuersies of faith you speake of must be indeed matters that require beleefe otherwise the rule of faith is not to meddle with them To speake more plaine It is not to be held as a duetie of the rule of faith that it should be able to determine of euerie idle question that curious and contentious heads can deuise For example if any man will make question of the Virgin Marie whether she were as you teach fifteene yeare old or perhaps eighteene or nineteen when our Sauiour Christ her Sonne was borne whether she were threescore three whē she died or more or lesse In these a thousād such matters deliuered as points of faith by your Priests and Iesuits it is not to be expected that the rule of faith should affoord any resolution We grant that infinite questions of your schoolemen positiōs of your Diuines cannot be determined by the rule of faith but only thus that they may be cōuinced to be no matters of beleefe that a Christian must needs think thus or thus of thē because they cannot be prooued either one way or other by scripture your proposition therefore is true onely of those things that are needfull to be beleeued all which may be certainly resolued by it What cannot is not of necessitie to be held by faith Your proposition you prooue as you thinke by this reason If there be no sufficient meanes prouided by which schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitie among Christians conserued vnlesse the rule of faith be able to resolue all such doubts then it must be able to resolue them But there is no sufficient meanes prouided whereby schismes and heresies may be auoided and vnitic conserued vnlesse the rule be able to resolue all such doubts Therefore the rule of faith must be able to resolue them If the proposition be taken in that sense which the former may seeme to haue as I shewed then I denie the consequence therof that is I say it doth not follow that if there be no sufficiēt means prouided whereby schismes and heresies shall de facto and in euēt be auoided vnlesse the rule of faith be able to shew what is true what false in all questions that any man will mooue then the rule must be able so to doe The reason of my deniall is that as before I answered it is sufficient for the rule to shew what is true in matters of faith and let vs know that those are not needfull to be beleeued of the truth whereof it saith nothing anie way The assumption also is false though you speak not of actuall auoiding of heresie and schisme For there is sufficient meanes prouided for the auoiding of schisme because nothing must be held for certain truth which cannot be prooued to be according to the rule which is the onely measure of true vnitie among Christians A. D. §. 4. But the Scriptures be not thus vniuersall For there be diuers questions or doubts moued now a dayes and those also touching very substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely Scripture For where haue we any expresse Scripture to proue that all those and onely those bookes which Catholickes or Protestants hold for Scripture are indeed Gods word and true Scripure This we shall not find expresly set downe in a part of Scripture This point therefore whereupon dependeth the certaintie of euery point proued out of Scripture cannot be made certaine to our knowledge or beliefe vnlesse we admit some other infallible rule or authoritie wherupon we may ground an vnfallible beleefe which infallible rule if we admit to assure vs that there is at all any Scripture and that those bookes and no other be Canonicall Scripture why should we not admit the same to assure vs vnfallibly which is the true sense and meaning of the same Scripture Hereupon S. Austin saith very well Cur non apud eos diligentissimè requiram quid Christus praeceperit quorum auctoritate commotus Christum aliquid praecepisse iam credidi Tune mihi meliùs expositurus es quid ille dixerit c. Why shold I not most diligently ask or learne of those he meaneth of the Catholicke Church what Christ hath commanded by whose authoritie I was moued to beleeue that Christ commanded any thing at all What wilt thou expound vnto me better what he hath said that is to say the meaning of his words Quae saith he ista tanta dementia est illis crede Christo esse credendum à nobis disce quid ille dixerit multo facilius mihi persuaderem Christo non esse credendum quà m de illo quidquam nisi ab ijs per quos
ei credidissem discendum What a madnesse is this in thee to say beleeue them to wit the Catholickes that we must beleeue Christ and the Scriptures to be his word yet learne of vs what Christ said that is to say what is the meaning of his word I should saith S. Austin much more easily perswade my self that I ought not to beleeue Christ at all then that I must learne any thing concerning him of any except of those of whom I haue already learned to beleeue in him A. W. I denie your principall Assumption wherein you denie the sufficiencie of the Scripture for the determining of all matters of faith For if the Scripture were not sufficient to this purpose it might be lawfull for men to adde to the word of God that which is wanting but that God hath precisely forbiddē all mē Ye shall put nothing to the word which I command you neither shall you take any thing from it out of which Cardinall Caietane saith we may gather that the law of God is perfect But of this place I haue said more other where and our Diuines are large and plentifull in this argument The Apostle Paul affirmeth of him selfe that he preached nothing but that which had bin spoken by Moses and the Prophets yea our Sauiour euery where auoucheth his doctrine by the writings of the old Testament Indeed of whom should we know the will of God but of God himselfe who doubtlesse hath not deliuered it so sparingly in so many seuerall bookes but that it containeth whatsoeuer is needfull to saluation All things indeed that our Lord did are not written but those saith Cyril that the writers thought to be sufficient for manners and doctrine I could ouerwhelme you with testimonies of the Fathers in this matter A few shall serue The Canonicall Scripture saith Austin is the rule of all The letters of Bb. are reprehended by some other of grauer authoritie Generall Councels correct prouinciall and the former are amended by the latter Let the Scripture be iudge saith another and let those doctrines be held for true that agree with it For the law of God or Scripture as Chrysostom saith is a most exact ballance square and rule Therefore let vs passe by that which he or he thinkes and let vs enquire all things of the Scriptures The holy Scriptures inspired by God are sufficient to shew the truth And therfore as Hilary saith wisely and religiously It were well we would content our selues with those things that are written If we will not this is Basils censure of vs that we are without faith and proud It is a manifest argument of infidelitie saith Basil and a certaine signe of pride if any man reiect ought that is written or attempt to bring in any thing that is not written Therefore Damascen saith that the Church receiueth acknowledgeth and reuerenceth all things that are deliuered by the law the Prophets the Apostles and Euangelists and further seeketh not for any thing I pray you shew me some reason if you can why the Lord that doth not omit necessary matters repeateth those that are lesse needful to be known should fil so many bookes of Scripture with the same histories and points of doctrine oftentimes rehearsed and quite leaue out many things of farre greater importance then some of those are which he hath caused to be written Without the knowledge of many things recorded in the Scriptures a man may be saued but you denie saluation to all men that beleeue not whatsoeuer you teach them and there is no end of your deuices though it haue no warrant in any part of Scripture Is it not better then to rest only vpon that which both you and we acknowledge to be the word of God then to giue an infinite libertie to men of deuising what they wil to lay a grieuous burthē vpon our selues to beleeue vnder pain of damnation whatsoeuer they wil father vpō I know not what impossibilitie of erring Let him that hath eyes see though the blind delight in blindnesse The weaknesse of your principall Assumption concerning the insufficiencie of the Scriptures you striue to fortifie with this slender reason If there be diuers questions moued now a dayes touching substantiall matters which are not expresly set downe nor determined by onely expresse Scripture then the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts But there are diuers such questions Therefore the Scripture is not able to resolue all such doubts Ere I answer directly to your syllogisme I must note two things in the propounding of it First by whom the questions you speake of are moued If by Papists it is the shame and sinne of your Church to suffer idle and needlesse questions to be moued of which there can be no determination but by a Councel to be held no man knoweth how many yeares hence euer or neuer If you say these questions are set on foote by vs all the world may discerne your vntruth For we are certainly perswaded that it is not lawfull to accept any doctrine as a point of faith which cannot be proued by the Scriptures But you will say We thinke they are determinable by Scripture though indeed they be not At the least then answer the proofes we bring out of Scripture and on our part the controuersie is ended You wil reply that we will not be answered but interprete Scripture as we list Who sees not that this is a meere slander since we stand not vpon any priuate reuelations but on those rules of interpretation which the fathers according to the light of true reason haue left vs as it were by legacy But this reply is also otherwise insufficient For whereas you yeeld as appeares by this reason that some things may be determined by Scripture this obiection denies that any point of doctrine whatsoeuer can be resolued of by it because if that you say be true we wil in all cases interprete Scripture as we please Secondly I obserue another point in respect of the time If the questions you meane be such as were neuer moued till now and the Scripture neuer failed in any former doubts which seems to be implied in that speech Now a dayes me thinkes there is no shew of reason to imagine that so many and so capitall heresies for the space of 1500 years should be refuted and ouerthrowne by Scriptures and now at the last matters of lesse importance and yet as you say very substantiall should haue no meanes of satisfaction by the like course Doubtlesse if the Scripture hath hitherto bene sufficient it is no small wrong to suspect and accuse it now of insufficiencie especially in very substantiall matters necessary to be beleeued Now concerning your syllogisme I denie the consequence of your propositiō What is the Scripture so poore and weake that it can determine nothing which is not expresly set downe
be the Apostles writings we make you this short answer Thence we know these to be the Apostles whence you know that Manicheus was the author of yours And in his Confessions he setteth out the matter more at large that when he considered how many things we are faine to beleeue for which we haue no certaine proofe it pleased God at the last to perswade him that they were worthy of iust reproofe which would not giue credit to those bookes of God which he had established almost in all countries with such authoritie and that they were at no hand to be hearkened vnto who would aske him how he knew that those bookes were vouchsafed to mankind by the spirit of the onely true God This as Valentia saith may be knowne by the admirable effect these bookes worke in the hearts of men in stirring them vp to vertue without any such eloquence and perswasions as other writers stuffe their books withall and yet neuer moue vs as these do The like hath Stapleton where he speakes of the meanes which the Church vseth to discerne of the Scriptures It is not our meaning to shut out the holy Ghost who is the teacher of the children of God as in other points so also in this but to stop the mouthes of Atheists and importunate men who obiect so vnreasonably against the iudgement of the whole Christian world without authoritie or reason But of the spirit and teaching thereof hereafter Whatsoeuer you gather vpon the former point it must needs be of smal strength because that hath need of better proof But let vs grant that it is true doth it therefore seeme necessary or reasonable to you that we should admit the interpretatiō of the Church as you speake without any triall because by the authoritie thereof we beleeue that the Scriptures are the word of God What if God gaue the Church no further authoritie but onely to assure vs of the Scripture It doth not follow that we must giue credit to whatsoeuer a man will say because in some one point he must be beleeued We may not in reason doubt but that the records which we find in an office are true because they are auouched so to be by the clearke and maister of the office But what of that may we therefore take them for competent iudges so that we must of necessitie hold that to be the meaning of the record which they deliuer to vs as such I am perswaded no man of any vnderstanding will say so Yet do we acknowledge that Austin speaketh with verie great reason For where should an ignorant man enquire of the sense of the Scripture rather then there where be learned it was scripture He shall not deale either kindly or reasonably if he refuse their iudgement other things being alike for any mans else whatsoeuer and therefore I pray you be not offended if we that liued not in the times of Popish ignorance doe giue credit to our owne Church by which we haue bene perswaded that these are the scriptures of God rather then to your Priests and Cleargie from whom we haue not receiued this perswasion But the case in Saint Austins time was farre otherwise The Manichees against whom he wrote that Treatise would not suffer a man to beleeue any thing though it were writtē in scripture vnlesse it were proued true by reason and yet themselues as Austin sheweth in the chapter you alledge were driuen to allow faith without reason and to lay this for a ground that a man must beleeue Christ that is he must beleeue that there was such a man though he haue no proofe for it but report generally continued a long time which Austin confesseth to haue bene the authoritie that first moued him to beleeue Now the Manichees acknowledging thus much of Christ and that onely vpon beleefe without reason brought in monstrous opinions of their owne which could in no sort agree with the scriptures Therefore being pressed hard by the Diuines of that age with scripture they denied all authoritie thereunto farther then they in their ignorance and heresie could make it serue for their vnreasonable conceits Yea they made small or no reckoning of the scriptures in comparison of their fundamentall Epistle and such other blasphemies written by Manes their founder and some of his followers Had not Austin great reason then to answer as he doth not concerning the sense of scripture to which you falsely apply his words but touching those bookes of theirs wherein they had written horrible and senselesse absurdities against religion and reason Surely saith Austin since by their authoritie I haue bene brought to beleeue that there was such an one as Christ because it was so generally held time out of minde I will neuer runne to a few of yours who learned of them that Christ was to know what I must beleeue of him Why should I not rather beleeue them that the scriptures teach what is to be held of Christ then you that in your writings onely is the truth since in this matter you can bring no reason why I should beleeue you rather then them For since by them saith Austin I haue beleeued being mooued by the authoritie of their generall consent if they should faile and could teach nothing which words you craftily leaue out I should easlier perswade my selfe not to beleeue Christ then to beleeue any thing of him by any mans report but by theirs who first made me beleeue in him Your glosse of beleeuing the scriptures to be his word and what is the meaning of his word agree not eyther with the place you alleadge as may appeare euidently to him that will reade it or with their heresie but of both I haue spoken sufficiently A. D. §. 5. Thus I haue prooued that those English translations whereupon Protestants commonly build their faith cannot be a sufficient rule of true Christian faith First because they are not infallibly free from error Secondly for that all men cannot reade them neither can any by onely reading be sure to attaine the right sense without which to haue the words of Scripture is to haue them as Austin saith ad speciem non ad salutem for a shew but not to saluation Lastly for that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in scripture as beside my proofe Saint Austin Saint Basil and Epiphanius do affirme Some of which reasons haue also force to prooue that scripture alone in what language soeuer is not a fit meanes to instruct sufficiently all sorts of men in all matters of faith Wherefore I may absolutely conclude that Scripture alone cannot be that rule of faith which we seeke for A. W. Thus in steed of disputing against the scriptures being the rule of faith which was the matter you propounded you haue made a discourse against our translations hauing fancied to your selfe a conceit which besides your selfe I thinke
no man euer dreamed of viz. that we commonly build our faith vpon our English translation So that the Scripture may well be the rule of faith for ought that you haue said against it concerning the first propertie of certaine truth which it were blasphemie to denie of the scripture For the second that the rule must be easie to vnderstand I haue shewed that there is no necessitie of that condition and that the scripture is easie in matters necessary to saluation In the last point of the scriptures defect touching many things that must needs be beleeued you do both wrong God in making his word writtē so vnperfect and by a foolish craft insteed of proouing that the scripture containeth not all matters of faith needfull to saluation vndertake to shew that which no man denieth that all points of beleefe are not expresly set down and determined by scripture And lest we should forget your shuffling in this point you offer new proofe of a needlesse matter from the authoritie of Austin Basil and Epiphanius whose testimonies I alledged before to prooue the sufficiencie of the scripture in all matters necessarie to saluation The places by you alledged are not of such matters neither speake of things not expresly contained but onely shew that for matters of fact ceremonie the Apostles haue not determined al particulars The Apostles saith Austin haue commaunded nothing touching not rebaptising them which haue bene baptised by hereticks but the custome which was pleaded against Cyprian is to be beleeued to haue had beginning from their tradition as there are many things which the Church euery where holdeth that we wel beleeue therefore to haue beene enioyned by the Apostles though they are not found written What is this to prooue that there are matters necessarie to be beleeued to saluation which are not exprest in the scriptures Basil was not the the author of that Treatise at the least of the latter part of it from about the 17. chapter and so forward That appeareth first by obseruing the difference of style being neither like Basils writing nor in one place like an other as Erasmus hath truly obserued who translated it Secondly by the fond discourse he maketh propounding one thing handling an other and concluding a third which not onely Basil would neuer haue done but no man of any discretion Last of all he bewraieth himselfe to be a counterfeit by speaking of Meletius as one dead long before who liued in his time ouerliued him as it is manifest by the Ecclesiasticall historie But admit the booke were Basils what is there in it to proue that all points of doctrine which appertaine to true Christian faith are not expresly set downe in Scripture This Author saith that we must beleeue oraditions VVhat In matters of doctrine There is no such word in him He speaketh of outward carriage in ceremonies and phrases of speech The question in that part of his Treatise is of the preposition with that is to speake that euery man may vnderstand whether it be lawfull to say in the Church seruice and otherwise Glorie be to the Father and to the Sonne with the holy Ghost or whether we must needs say and to the holy Ghost not with For this speech that author pleades tradition Do we denie any such matter Or do we not acknowledge the libertie and authoritie of the Churches in such matters Who sees not that our custome now is to say Glory be to the Father to the Sonne and to the holy Ghost Not that thereby we condemne the other kind of speech but because in matters left to our libertie we take that which seemeth fittest Epiphanius speaking of praier for the dead which hath no warrant of Scripture is glad to helpe himselfe with the authoritie of tradition telling vs that some things must be held by tradition and not all taken out of the scriptures But Epiphanius doth not say that this is a doctrine or action necessarie to saluation A. D. §. 6. Some obiect against this conclusion that place of S. Paul Omnis Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad docendum c. vt perfectus sit homo c. But this place prooueth nothing against that which I haue said For it saith not that scripture alone is sufficient to instruct a man to perfection but that it is profitable for this purpose as it is indeed and the rather because it commendeth vnto vs the authoritie of the Church which as I shall afterwards proue is sufficient Now it is certaine that to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient be farre different things Stones and Timber be profitable to the building of an house yet they alone without a worke-man to square them and set them in order be not sufficient for this purpose A. W. Of this place I haue spoken sufficiently otherwhere and shewed that the Scriptures are able to make vs wise to saluation and therefore sufficient to that purpose Now the Apostle hauing giuen that commendation to the scripture vers 15. proceedeth in the next to exemplifie that in particular which he had before said in generall It is able to make thee wise to saluation it is able to fit thee to teaching reproouing correcting instructing Can any reasonable man thinke that the Apostle deliuering by way of amplification his former commendation of the scripture that he might the rather stirre vp Timothie to the studie of it would say lesse then he had done before But it is a great deale lesse to say no more but the scripture is profitable to such purposes then to commend it as able to make a man wise to saluation Therefore though the word indeed doe not expresly signifie sufficiencie yet it cannot be doubted but the profit mentioned implieth such a sufficiencie especially since he addeth perfection which must arise from this word of God And so as I haue shewed elsewhere do Chrysostome and Theophylact vnderstand it who make the Apostle speake to Timothie to this effect that he being now to be offred vp leaueth the scriptures in his steed of which he may in all things take aduise and counsell as if the Apostle himselfe were present with him But you forsooth would make vs beleeue that the scripture is indeed profitable to this end but not sufficient Is not the knowledge of arts tongues philosophy and history of verie good vse also to this purpose Slender then too slender is the commendation our Apostle giueth the scriptures if it be of no greater excellēcy then these humane furtherances but only in a certain degree of profit To helpe the matter you propound one particular for which the scripture is profitable namely to commend vnto vs the authority of the Church But neither doth it cōmend to vs any such authority as you imagin if that be the rule of the scripture one sentēce had bin as good better then
the whole volume of the Bible which to say were no lesse thē blasphemy But I am afraid the scriptures that Paul there speaks of which were the books of the old Testamēt are rather vnprofitable thē profitable to that purpose For they often amplify magnify the word of God written in so plaine termes that eueuery man may vnderstand them as for the authority you fancy to your selfe they speake either nothing or little and that very obscurely thereof But we shall see in the rest of your Treatise what proofe you can finde of this authoritie in Moses and the Prophets and the writers of the olde Testament Now at the last you remember your selfe againe and returne to your old shift of Scripture alone Which you deuised of your owne head that you might haue somewhat to confute It is not all one say you to be profitable and to be of it selfe alone sufficient And you tel vs This is certaine Who euer denied it Or who but he that wanted matter to replie against would cast such doubts Especially who would haue wasted time and paper to prooue or declare a thing so certaine and cleare by a needlesse comparison The scripture without any doctrines of men call them what you will imagine what assistance of the spirit you list is sufficient to teach all men the true certaine way to saluation This is that we affirme not as you ridiculously slander vs that there needs no ministerie of man for the instructing of any one in the vnderstanding of any place of scripture or knowledge of any point of religion These are your owne fancies or mōsters rather with which like bugbeares you scare your poore seduced followers and bleare the eies of the ignorant that they may not enquire what we teach indeed but hate our doctrine before they any way vnderstand it But they that haue any care of their owne saluation will not suffer themselues to be led by you hoodwinkt to destruction if any man will needs be wilfully ignorant the Lord shall require his blood at his owne hands we haue done our duetie in teaching and proouing the truth A. D. CHAP. VIII That no naturall wit or learning can be the rule of faith A. W. If you had bestowed that paines and time in confirming your proposition which you waste needlesly in proouing that which no man denieth you might perhaps haue spoken somewhat more to the purpose but it is lost labour to go about the refutatiō of that which besides your selfe no body euer thought on That naturall wit or learning should be the rule of faith is a conceit amongst Christians neuer heard of yet this haue you propounded for to exercise your strength vpon A. D. §. 1. The second conclusion is that no one mans naturall wit and learning neither any company of men neuer so learned onely as they are learned men not infallibly assisted by the holy Spirit of God can either by interpreting Scripture or otherwise be this rule of faith A. W. Here you set out the former proposition more at large in respect of the Antecedent or first part of it Neither any one mans naturall wit nor many mens ioyned together whatsoeuer their learning be or what course soeuer they take as naturall men can be the rule of faith either for any doctrine they shal deliuer or for any interpretation they shall make of Scripture But what needeth all this adoe you do but fight with your owne shadow yet let vs se how you haue bestirred your selfe A. D. §. 2. This I prooue Because all this wit and learning be it neuer so exquisite or rare is humane naturall and fallible and therefore it cannot be a sufficient foundation whereupon to build a diuine supernaturall and infallible faith This reason I confirme Because whatsoeuer a man neuer so wittie and learned propoundeth to others to be beleeued vpon the onely credit of his word wit or humane studie and learning it can haue no more certaintie then is this his word wit and learning But these being all naturall and humane are subiect to errour and deceit For Omnis homo mendax there is no man but he may both deceiue and be deceiued and may if he haue no other helpe but of nature and industrie both be deceiued in thinking that to be Gods word which is not or that to be the true meaning and sense of Gods word which is not and may also deceiue others whilest being too confident of his wit and learning he presumeth to teach others these his erroneous opinions Therefore the beleefe which shall be built vpon such a mans word and teaching is or may be a false beleefe and alwaies is vncertaine and fallible and therefore can neuer be a true Diuine and Christian faith which alwaies is most certaine and infallible And this which I haue said of the wit and learning of one particular man may also be applied to prooue against the wit and learning of any companie of men hauing no assistance but their owne naturall gifts and industrie of studie or reading A. W. No humane naturall and fallible thing can be the rule of faith Naturall wit and learning though neuer so exquisite are humane naturall and fallible Therefore no humane wit nor learning can be the rule of faith I grant this reason and conclusion to be sound and true onely in the confirmation of it I finde some occasion to note one thing for the better vnderstanding of the matter we haue in hand If any man would speake for naturall wit and learning in this question he would not say as the matter is here propounded that any mans wit or learning were the rule of faith but that the wit and learning of man might finde out somewhat at least in the Scripture whereupon faith might safely be grounded For example as I said once before though it be not written any where in the Scripture that there are three persons distinct each from other and all these three but one God yet may a man by naturall wit and learning gather this out of the Scripture and confirme it thence so plainely and certainly that any Christian may holde those points as Articles of faith Not that they are to be taken for such vpon the onely credit of his word which is a second thing wherein you mistake the matter but because though euerie man be a lier yet a man may see and shew a truth which cannot nor may be suspected of falshood or errour And a beleefe builded vpon Doctrine so taught shall be free from possibilitie of erring and as you speake infallible This I thought good to obserue by occasion of your confirmation where you suppose that a man deliuereth matters to be beleeued vpon the bare credit of his word by reason of his wit and learning In this sense it is out of all question that no naturall wit or learning of any many or all the men in the world can be the rule of faith but
beleeue a simple husbandman a child or an old woman rather then the Pope and a thousand Bb. if these speake against the Gospell and the other with it Then belike a priuate man may see some truth which is not generally discerned The place of Austin you bring doth not condemne all interpretations or opinions which some one man findeth out and holdeth but onely reproueth them who in expounding the places of Scripture which wil beare a diuers sense vrge one onely not because it is truth but because they like it best His example is out of Genesis concerning the sense of those words In the beginning God created heauen and earth They know not which of those diuers senses that may be Moses did intend saith Austin but they loue their owne opinion not because it is true but because it is their owne What doth this concerne vs who as we giue euery man of iudgement leaue to propound his interpretation to be examined so permit no man to thrust any exposition vpon the Church which he cannot make euident proofe of by sound reason Neither is it then taken as his priuate conceit but acknowledged as the truth of God manifested by his industrie In doubtfull places we follow the likeliest sense without any resolute determining what is true what false therefore cannot with any shew of reason be charged to appropriate the knowledge of Gods truth to our selues where it hath pleased his Maiestie so to propound it that of diuers senses a man cannot certainly affirme that this or that is true A. D. CHAP. X. That the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule of faith A. W. If you had mentioned nothing but the doctrine of the true Church we might haue vnderstood you without any cause of doubting but now you ad teaching to doctrine we are enforced to enquire farther into your meaning For we are vncertaine whether by those words you meane one and the same thing or no. The doctrine of the Church is that which the Church propoundeth to be beleeued whether by word of mouth or in writing Teaching if we make it differ from doctrine is that onely which is deliuered by voice to the eare If we vnderstand you in the former sense for teaching by writing as well as by word of mouth the latter word was needlesse if in the latter of writing onely then the same doctrine written is not the rule of faith which vttered by a teacher will become such a rule not because it is true but because it is taught by authoritie A. D. §. 1. The fourth conclusion is that this infallible rule which euery one ought to follow in all points of faith is the doctrine and teaching of the true Church or companie of the true faithfull of Christ A. W. That we may the better vnderstand what you say and how you proue your saying there are a few things to be considered in this fourth condition First by the faithfull of Christ you must meane those that professe Christian Religion whether they beleeue as they professe or no as I haue shewed out of Bellarmine who doubtlesse knoweth what the Church is as well as you If you be of any other opinion by your owne rule we may reiect it for the priuatnesse thereof Secondly where you say the true faithfull it is not your purpose to speake as we for whom you writ this commonly doe of them that haue a true iustifying faith but of them that professe the doctrine of the Gospell according to the true sense and meaning of it whether they haue any iustifying faith or no. Thirdly by this companie or Church whom vnderstand you If the whole number of the beleeuers as well Laitie as Cleargie I oppose the iudgement of your owne Doctours against you who speaking of the Churches doctrine and teaching restraine the word onely to the Pope and Bishops The spirit saith Bellarmine is certainly found in the Church that is in a Councell of Bishops confirmed by the chiefe Pastor of the whole Church or in the chiefe Pastor with a Councell of the other Pastors If you follow Bellarmine I demaund whether your Laity be none of the true faithfull of Christ nor parts of the Church But to leaue this doubt wee are thus to conceiue your meaning that the doctrine which the Pope and other Pastors of the Church namely Bb. deliuer in a Councell is the rule of faith Now let vs propound your reason and examine it but first I confesse that I dare not resolutely determine whether it be brought in by you for a proofe of any thing that hitherto hath bene spoken or intended onely as a discourse concerning the authoritie of the Church If we apply it to any matter alreadie past as farre as I am able to conceiue it must be a second proofe of the proposition or maior of your maine Syllogisme in this manner If the doctrine and teaching of the true Church be the infallible rule which all men ought to follow then the faith which the authority of the true Church commends to vs is to be holden for the true faith But the doctrine and teaching of the true church is the infallible rule that all men ought to follow Therfore the faith which the authoritie of the true Church commendeth to vs is to be holden for the true faith This reasonable coherence we may make betwixt this Chapter and your former course without changing or weakning any part or point of your proofe which is applied to the confirming of this last minor the argument of this Chapter A. D. §. 2. This I proue by this reason If our Sauiour Christ hath promised to any company of men the presence of himselfe and the assistance of his holy spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth giuing withall peculiar charge and commission to them to teach all nations and to preach to euery creature giuing also warrant to all that they may safely heare them giuing also commandement whereby he bindeth all to do in all things according to their saying and threatning greatly those who will not heare and beleeue them then certainly the doctrine and teaching of these men is in all points most true and infallible and such as if the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not as they are not wanting may well be proposed to all sorts as an assured ground whereupon they may safely build an infallible Christian faith For looke what our Sauiour Christ hath promised must needs be performed and whatsoeuer he warranteth or commandeth may safely and without danger of error be done nay must of necessitie be done especially when he threatneth those that will not do it and consequently if he haue promised to send his holy Spirit to teach any companie of men all truth it is not to be doubted but that he sendeth this his holy Spirit and by it teacheth them all truth and fith the teaching of his
Spirit is vnfallible we are not to doubt but that this companie is in all points infallibly taught the truth If also the same our Sauiour gaue warrant and commandement that they should teach vs and that we should heare them and do in all things according to their saying we may not likewise doubt but that they shall be able to teach all sorts of men in all points the infallible truth and that all sorts of men may if they will learne of that companie what in all points is the infallible truth For otherwise by this generall commaundement of hearing them and doing according to their saying we should be bound somtime to heare and beleeue an vntruth and to doe that which were not vpright and good which without blasphemie to Christ his veritie and goodnesse can no way be thought A. W. 1 If our Sauiour Christ say you hath promised to any companie his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to instruct and teach them all truth 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature 3 If he haue giuen warrant to all that they may safely heare them 4 If he haue giuen commaundement to all to doe in all things according to their saying 5 If he haue threatned them who will not heare and beleeue them 6 If the other conditions required in the rule of faith be not wanting then the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow But our Sauiour Christ hath so 1. promised 2. charged 3. warranted 4. commaunded 5. threatned and 6. the other conditions required are not wanting Therefore the doctrine and teaching of the true Church is the rule that all men ought to follow I haue propounded this Syllogisme as your selfe haue set it downe saue onely that I haue endeuored to make it somewhat shorter keeping your sense whole and full Now for the proposition I grant the consequence vpon all those conditions ioyntly considered to be sound and good Howsoeuer some of them might well haue bene omitted for example 1 If our Sauiour haue promised his presence and assistance of his spirit of purpose to teach a certaine companie of men all truth then the doctrine of the Church is the rule of faith This consequence is but weake for Christ may affoord such presence and assistance to such a purpose and yet the effect not ensue by reason that those men faile in some duties required on their part Do not you affirme in this Treatise that God hath appointed meanes of saluation for all men with a true will to haue them saued and yet verie many yea the greatest part are not saued 2 If he haue giuen them charge and commission to preach to euerie creature then their preaching is the rule of faith Their commission is not simply to teach but to teach those things that our Sauiour himselfe commaunded and therefore their doctrine can be no farther the rule of faith then they preach according to their commission If I or an Angell from heauen saith the Apostle preach vnto you otherwise then that you haue receiued let him be accursed The same may be obiected against the third and the fifth points It doth not follow that their doctrine is the rule of faith because all men haue warrant to heare them safely or because they are threatned who will not heare and beleeue them For first they may be free from danger of erring and yet not know all points of faith which is made by you one condition of the rule Secondly vnlesse you enlarge the warrant as farre as the commaundement in the fourth point which is in a manner to confound them so that they may safely heare them in all things your consequence will still be naught Thirdly they may heare them safely though the other may erre if they haue means affoorded to examine that they deliuer skill and care to vse those meanes Fourthly the threatning for not beleeuing is to be restrained to their teaching as they ought Are not they threatned by our Sauiour who beleeue not any Minister lawfully authorised and preaching the truth Yet doth it not follow hereupon that they cannot erre or that their preaching is simply the rule of faith But these feeble consequences might all haue bene omitted by you and your matter as fully prooued if you had set downe none but the fourth and sixth points thus If God haue commaunded all men to doe in all things as the Church teacheth and the other conditions required in the rule be not wanting then their preaching is the rule that all men ought to follow This consequence is true and sufficient for your purpose the other serue for number to make a shew rather then for substance of weight But of your Maior this may be sufficient especially since I acknowledge the truth thereof A. D. §. 3. But so it is that Christ our Sauiour hath in holy Scripture promised giuen commission warranted commaunded and threatned in manner aforesaid Therefore we cannot doubt but that there is a certaine company the which is called the true Church of Christ which both is in all points of faith infallibly taught by the holy Spirit and is likewise to teach all sorts of men in all points of faith what is the infallible truth and therefore the teaching of this companie may well be assigned and proposed to all men as an vndoubted sufficient rule of faith A. W. I denie your Minor first in generall because our Sauiour did not so promise charge warrant commaund threaten in regard of any companie of men as if there had bene some ioynt teaching appointed by him but in respect of his Apostles and Ministers seuerally who in their proportion haue as much authoritie for necessitie of being beleeued seuerally one by one as iointly all together though such a ioynt consent is the more to be reuerenced and respected Secondly I denie it also in the fourth point which is the strength of it There neuer was since the Apostles any man or any companie of men according to whose saying we were commaunded to doe in all things Lastly I say the conditions required in the rule of faith are wanting in the teaching you vnderstand This conclusion of yours giueth me occasion to speake somewhat at large of the Church with the name whereof applied to your Pope alone or Pope and Cleargie you daily seduce many vnsetled and ignorant people The word Church in our English tongue seemeth first of all to haue bene applied to the Temple or place of Gods seruice as if it were called Kyrke of the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as you would say the Lords house But the Hebrew Greek words which must be the Iudges in this matter signifie a Companie Congregation or Assemblie The Hebrew words are two the Greeke as many the Latin besides the two Greeke made Latin are diuers Populi people Coetus
time for all men know it erred in diuers though not fundamentall if we may gesse by the writings of the learned in those ages or that the Church hath or shall want the performance of Christs promise at any time for a moment But what is all this to the matter we haue in hand Well Let vs see yet what you say A. D. §. 2. Against these men I set downe this assertion The true Church of Christ which the forenamed testimonies of Scripture do commend was and is to continue without interruption till the worlds end This I prooue First out of the verie words of those promises which I cited out of Saint Matthew and Saint Iohn For how can Christ our Sauiour or his holy Spirit be with his Church in such sort as there is promised to wit till the worlds end and for euer and especially as is said in Saint Matthew Omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi All the daies euen to the end of the world vnlesse the Church also be all the daies vntill the end of the world For if the Church for any time daies monthes or years doe cease to be Christ cannot for these yeares moneths and daies be truly said to be with his Church sith he cannot be with that which is not and consequently he cannot be said to haue fulfilled his promise wherein he said he would be with his Church all the daies vntill the end of the world A. W. The men against whom you set downe this Assertion are of your owne making that you might haue against whom to shew your valour once it cannot concerne vs who acknowledge the continuance of Christs Church without interruption till the worlds end As long as these times shall run on saith Austin the Church of God that is the bodie of Christ shall not be wanting vpon earth This is the Church spoken of in as many of these testimonies as are not peculiar to the Apostles namely the elect from time to time not your Romish synagogue wherein many of the reprobate also are included and that as members of your congregation who cannot without dishonour of our Sauiour Christ be accounted parts of his glorious bodie The truth of your Assertion needeth no proofe and the weaknesse of your proofe is a disgrace to your Assertion Christ will be with his Church at all times whensoeuer there are any that beleeue in him not onely whilest the Apostles liue therefore there shall alwaies be some in the world without interruption that shall beleeue in him This is but a loose consequence I grant the conclusion or consequent that there shall be a Church alwaies but I denie that therefore there shall alwaies be one because our Sauiour promiseth to be with it whensoeuer it is Put case our Sauiour had thus spoken I will be with you in your persecution all the daies euen to the end of the world might a man reasonably conclude from hence that therfore the Church shall be alwaies persecuted without any interruption or ease one day from persecution Such is your consequence and as such insufficient to prooue your Assertion A. D. §. 3. Secondly I prooue the same out of an other promise or prophesie of our Sauiour Christ to his Church wherein he saith Portae inferninon praeualebunt aduersus eam the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it For how was it true that the gates of hel shall not preuaile if they haue preuailed so much as vtterly to abolish the Church or at least to banish it quite out of the world for so long a time Granting therfore which euery Christiā must needs grant that the prophesies promises of our Sauiour are alwaies fulfilled and that they are vnfallibly true we may not doubt but that the church hath euer bene since Christ his time and shal neuer cease to be in the world A. W. This proofe is little or nothing better then the former thus you conclude If Christ haue promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against his Church then it must continue without interruption till the worlds end But Christ hath promised that the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it Therefore it must continue without interruption till the worlds end I denie the consequence of your maior first because the Church in this place doth not signifie such a companie of men as you by that name vnderstand but the congregation of the elect who by true faith confesse as Peter did and being built vpon our Sauiour the rocke shal neuer be remoued and perish And this promise is made not onely to all ioyntly but to euery one seuerally as it was to Peter and all the rest of the Apostles If there be any saith Origen against whom the gates of hell shall preuaile such a one is neither the rocke vpon which Christ buildeth nor the Church which is built by Christ vpon the rocke Euerie one saith the same Origen that is a follower of Christ by imitation is a rocke or stone But he against whom the gates of hell preuaile is neither to be counted a rocke nor the Church nor part of the Church which Christ builds vpon the rocke Againe whosoeuer is Christs disciple saith the same author is a rocke but many are called and few chosen As if he should haue said that the Church against which the gates of hell shall not preuaile is euery one of the elect and that he against whom those gates do preuaile is none of the elect or church to which that promise of our Sauiour was made Theophylact though he expound the place of the Church somewhat generally yet hee doubteth not to adde that euery one of vs also is the church which is the house of God if therefore we be confirmed in the confession of Christ the gates of hell that is sinnes shall not preuaile against vs. The gates of hell saith your Glosse are sinnes threatnings flatterings heresies whereby they that are weake runne into destruction who are not to be thought to haue built the house of their profession of beleeuing soundly vpon the rocke but vpon the sand that is to follow Christ with a simple and true intent but to haue made a shew for some earthly respect For he that receiueth the faith of Christ with the inward loue of his heart easily ouercometh whatsoeuer outwardly befalleth him Lyra saith that the church here spoken of consisteth of those persons in whō there is true knowledge confessiō of the faith truth not of any men in respect of their power or dignity ecclesiasticall or ciuill because many Princes Popes and other inferiour Christians are found to haue made Apostasie from the faith Luke of Bruges though he will not haue this promise of victorie belong to euery particular member of the church yet he granteth that euery liuing member thereof stedfastly cleauing vnto it may conceiue good hope of triumphing
kingdome which shall haue no end A. D. § 5. Lastly I might confirme the same with the testimonie of the ancient Fathers Origen Saint Chrysostome S. Bernard and especially of S. Austin who disputing against the Donatists saith thus as rehearsing one of their speeches Sed illa Ecclesia quae fuit omnium gentium iam non est perijt That Church which was of all nations is not now it is perished Vnto which their speech he answereth O impudentem vocem Accounting it great impudencie to say the Church is perished And in the same place he bringeth in the Church as speaking personally thus Quam diu ero in hoc seculo annuncia mihi propter illos qui dicunt Fuit iam non est apostatauit perijt Ecclesia ab omnibus gentibus Et annunciauit nec vacua fuit vox ista Quis annunciauit mihi nisi ipsa via quando annunciauit Ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi How long shall I be in this world tell me in regard of them who say the Church indeed was but it is not now it is become apostata and is perished out of all nations And he told me neither was this word in vaine who told me but the way it selfe to wit Christ who saith I am the way when did he tell Behold I am with you vntill the end of the world A. W. Here is a flourish of names to little purpose especially since these authors you mentiō agree with vs about the true Church that consisteth only of the elect not as you teach of all sorts good and bad elect and reprobate so they make an outward profession of beleeuing But Austin condemneth the Donatists of impudencie for saying that the Church was in their time perished out of the world saue that it remained in a part of Africa amongst them that held with Donatus So would he crie out against you Papists if he liued at this day and heard you complaine that there is no Church in the world but only in Rome in those countries which depēd vpon the Church of Rome Onely Donatus his part as Austin calleth it was the Church with them and onely the Popes part is the Church with you You are not indeed as yet come so farre as they were because some other countries besides Italy are content to be ruled by your Pope but when it shal please God to leaue that strumpet the Church of Rome destitute of friends as her wound is vnrecouerable and she draweth euerie day nearer and nearer to her end then will you take vp the verie same complaint that the Donatists vsed and there shall be no Church at all but in Rome or where the Pope shall lurke in some other corner of the world We denie not that the Church to whom our Sauiour maketh that promise shall continue till the end of the world and we detest Donatus heresie in affirming that it was then to be found onely in Africa But as I said before what maketh this for the continuance of such a Church as you imagine This rather belongeth to the visibilitie and famousnesse of the Church whereof in the next chapter A. D. CHAP. XII That this Church which must be to vs the rule of faith as it must alwaies continue so it must also alwaies be visible A. W. It is yet to prooue and alwaies will be that there is any such Church as must be to vs the rule of faith what should we then striue about the continuance and visibilitie thereof But you must needs be answered according to the counsell of Salomon Lest you be wise in your owne conceit to the hurt of other A. D. §. 1. Now hauing prooued that the true Church of Christ must alwaies continue without interruption till the worlds end it remaineth that I shew also in what manner it is to continue to wit whether it shall alwaies be visible That is to say whether in all ages it was and shall be a companie of men who may be seene and in some sort plainely knowen to be that companie which men are to beleeue by faith to be the true Church of Christ or that it shall be sometime at least inuisible that no man can see those men nor know them to be that companie which we must beleeue to be the true Church of Christ A. W. That the Church of Christ must alwaies continue is a point that needeth no proofe that it is to continue without interruption if we did not beleeue alreadie we should neuer be driuen or perswaded to it by your weake reasons But as me thinks I must be faine to tell you oftner the continuance of the true Church without interruption makes nothing at all for that imaginarie Church of your deuising of the visibilitie whereof you intreat in this Chapter Wherein first you goe about to propound and expound the question then you make a shew of proouing it according to the conceit you haue of it In the propounding of the question for the readers better vnderstanding I must let him know that howsoeuer your words shall alwaies be visible seeme to tie the question onely to the time hereafter to come yet your meaning is to enquire whether the Church of Christ haue not alwaies since his first comming and shall not alwaies till his second comming be apparent and visible This is manifest by your exposition In all ages it was and shall be and by your proofes which at the least in your opinion concerne the whole Church of Christ euer since his comming in the flesh Your exposition rather darkens then cleares the State of the question For who would not thinke by your words that one part of the controuersie betwixt you and vs is whether the men the companie of whom is the church may at all times be seene or no as if we were so voide of sense as to imagine that men could be at any time except by miracle inuisible Do not your words imply thus much I pray you consider them a little with me The question is say you whether the Church be alwaies a companie of men that may be seene If you answer that I must adde that which followeth And in some sort plainly knowen to be that companie I replie that your selfe afterward make those two distinct parts of the question when you expound what is meant by Inuisible that no man say you can see those men nor know them to be that companie wherein you may reasonably be thought first to speake of those mens being seene and secondly of their being knowen to be such a companie But to make short and to speake plaine withall the question of the Churches inuisiblenesse is double First whether a man by his bodily sight can discerne who they are that be members of Christs mysticall bodie or no that is who be elect and who be not This we say herein you agree with vs
Christ vpon earth whereof hereafter when I come to speake of the Catholicke Church I denie the consequence of your proposition For it is possible that al the Churches in the world should gloriously professe the true faith and yet many thousands be vtterly ignorant that there are any such Churches Was not your Church of Rome which hath bene famous enough for outward state altogether vnknowne at the least a long time in the Indies and America till within these 100. yeares or thereabouts And yet do you aske If it did outwardly professe how it should not by this profession be made visible and knowne Hath not the kingdome of China if we beleeue the report of your Iesuites and other Friers bene a mightie and rich estate many hundred yeares and yet not heard of till of late in most parts of Christendome If you reply that the Churches must needs be knowne to them amongst or neare whom they are I answer that this proueth not their visibilitie to all men at all times no nor to them in the midst of whom they dwell vnlesse the Churches be setled in some outward peace that the members thereof may freely shew themselues Your minor is false it may come to passe that the Church may cease for a space to make open profession of that faith which in hart it doth beleeue else how could Eliah liuing in the kingdom of Israel haue bene ignorant that there were 7000. true worshippers of God in that countrey Your proofe is insufficient If it might come to passe say you that the Church should cease to professe outwardly then should the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But the gates of hell shal not mightily preuaile against it contrary to his promise Therefore it may not come to passe that the Church should cease so to professe The consequence of your maior is too weake Our Sauiours promise is neither to the whole Church considered as a companie ioyntly together but to euery true beleeuer as I shewed before nor concerning outward profession against which Peter the head of the Church as you dreame grieuously sinned but of continuing ioyned to Iesus Christ as the head by a true iustifying faith resting on him for saluation In which estate Peter alwayes was preserued by our Sauiour though the diuel preuailed against him to the deniall of his Lord and Master for feate of death But let vs see your proofe If outward profession be a thing necessary to saluation then if the church faile in that the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrary to our Sauiours promise But outward profession is a thing necessary to saluation Therfore if the Church faile in outward profession the gates of hell mightily preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise I denie your minor Such outward profession as you meane is not necessary to saluation For the better clearing whereof we must a little examine what it is for a thing to be necessary to saluation then what profession may be counted necessary For the former that is necessary to the saluation of a man without which he cannot possibly be saued Now these things are either simply necessarie so that the absence of them shuts a man out of heauen or necessarie onely in some sort Simply necessarie on mans part for in that sense we speake now of things necessarie are acknowledgement of sinne faith in Iesus Christ and repentance wheresoeuer any of these is wanting there is no possibilitie of saluation so long as they are wanting Other things there are onely so far necessarie as that the contempt or neglect of them baâ—s a man of saluation Such are the Sacraments and outward profession both in generall by becoming a member of some true visible Church and in particular by witnessing the truth as oft as the Lord shall minister iust occasion Concerning this latter kinde of things necessarie we are to know that if we truly repent our contempt and neglect of these duties and beleeue in Iesus Christ there is mercie for vs with God though for want of oportunitie we can neuer come to the performance of them Touching the latter point of outward profession it is as I signified ere while of two sorts either a ioyning of our selues to some Church professing true Religion or a bearing witnesse of the truth of God which we professe To this latter especially belong the two former places of Scripture alledged by you To the former that text which you set in the last place as it shal appeare by and by You will aske me perchance whether of these two is the profession you speake of Surely to speake plainly and properly neither of them For it is a conceit of your owne deuising without any authoritie or warrant of Scripture and namely of those places you bring for proofe of it yet may it in some sort be referred to the latter as being a meanes whereby we may auouch the truth of God whereof we are professors So then the answer is first that no kinde of outward profession is simply necessary to saluation as if the absence of it were in it selfe damnable though the contempt or neglect of the dutie not repented of brings certaine damnation Secondly that it is not necessary to saluation either simply or in any sort that a whole Church should at all times make open profession to the world of that Religion which they hold and secretly practise This is that outward profession which is meant in your minor by which conceit you shut out of heauen all Churches that is all assemblies of the faithfull which at any time haue for borne to cast themselues wilfully into the mouthes of the bloud-thirstie and rauening persecutors by proclaiming openly their faith in Christ It is too true that an ouer-great zeale of martyrdome caried some men now and then farther then they should haue gone to the endangering and losing of their liues But it is as true that our Sauiour his Apostles and the Churches from time to time haue beene carefull to hide themselues from the sight of Tyrants when the Gospell was persecuted as farre as their callings and other occasions would giue them leaue Indeede they they neuer would neither is it lawfull denie the truth of God or themselues to be professors of it if they were called in question for it yet did they conceale as much as they could from the persecutors their times and places of meeting and also the seuerall members of their Churches To denie Christ or the truth of his religion is alwaies damnable and without repentance bringeth damnation vnauoideably not to make publicke profession of religion is not alwaies so but then onely when the Lord by some speciall occasion according to the generall dutie of a Christian or a mans particular calling thrusteth or draweth him foorth to giue testimonie to the truth by maintaining it or suffering for it Which your selfe also afterward acknowledge by
Let vs therefore proceede in examining this discourse A. D. §. 1. Hitherto I haue shewed that the rule of faith which all men ought to seeke that by it they may learne true faith is the doctrine of the Church of Christ and that this Church doth continue and is alwayes visible that is to say such as may be found out and knowne Now the greatest question is sith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Christ euery one of which challenge to themselues the title of the true Church how euery man may come to know assuredly and in particular which companie is indeed the true visible Church of Christ whose doctrine we must in all points beleeue and follow To this question I answer that euery companie which hath the name of Christians or which challenge to themselues the name of the Church are not alwayes the true Church For of heretickes we may well say as S. Austin doth Non quia Ecclesiae Christi videntur habere nomen idcirco pertinent ad eius consecrationem They doe not therefore pertaine to the consecration of the Church of Christ because they seeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For as the same S. Austin saith in another place heretickes are onely whited ouer with the name of Christians when indeed Si haeretici sunt as Tertullian sayth Christiani esse non possunt If they be heretickes the cannot be true Christians The reason whereof the same Tertullian insinuateth to be because they follow not that faith which came from Christ to his Apostles and Disciples and which was deliuered by them from hand to hand to our forefathers and so to vs but they follow that faith which they chose to themselues of which election or choise the name of hereticke and heresie did arise A. W. Hitherto you haue laboured to proue the maior of your maine syllogisme propounded in your preface namely that the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vnto vs is to be held for the true faith What successe you haue had in this proofe let them say that haue compared your arguments and my answers together Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine assumption that they onely are the true Church which make profession of the Romane faith Your syllogisme is thus framed They onely are the true Church to whom the certaine marks by which the Church is to be knowne belong But they that professe the Romane faith are they to whom those markes belong Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are the true Church The proposition or maior of this Syllogisme is not exprest by you but necessarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter where you say that the way to discerne which is the true Church is first to set downe which be the certain marks whereby all men may easily know the Church The assumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogisme thus concluded They onely who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong But they that professe the Romane religion are they who are one holy Catholicke Apostolicke Church Therefore they onely that professe the Romane faith are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong Your proposition or maior is in the two next Chapters your assumption or minor in the sixteenth In handling the proposition first you labour to disproue the markes of a true church which we assigne and that in Chapt. 14. then you assay to propound and confirme other of your owne as we shall see hereafter if God will when we come to Chap. 15. Whereas you expound what you meane by a visible Church viz. such a one as may be found out and knowne you straighten the question and auow that which no man denieth For the question betwixt vs is not whether the Church may be found out or no but whether it be so visible and famous a congregation that it may at all times be knowne of all men If this be not that you should proue what will become of your grand reason that therefore there must alwayes be a knowne Church the doctrine whereof euery must rest vpon in all matters of faith because otherwise it cannot be vniuersally true that God will haue all men to be saued It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring which companies of them that professe Christian Religion are the true Churches of Christ For that all are not it is apparent by your Antichristian Synagogue and that all true Christians are bound as much as lieth in them to become members of some true church of Christ it is manifest because else they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worship which are no where done but in his true churches If the choise of any doctrine not receiued from Christ be sufficient to make men heretickes and churches hereticall what may the world thinke of your synagogue which is not ashamed openly to professe that she holdeth many points of doctrine which haue not proofe out of the written word of God For whereas to shift off the matter you come in with deliuerie of I know not what from hand to hand by the Apostles and your forefathers who sees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of insufficiencie and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption What auailes it to know that all doctrine is heresie which comes not from our Sauiour Christ if we must beleeue that all came from him which your Pope and his Councell tell vs they haue receiued by tradition why should we not rather hearken to your Occham who truly affirmed that heresy is an opinion chosen by a man contrary to the holy Scripture Surely there is great cause to suspect them of heresie who refuse to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture whatsoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apostles by their forefathers A. D. §. 2. The way therefore to discerne which is the true Church is irst to set downe which be the certaine markes by which all men may easily know the Church and then to examine to whom these markes doe agree The which that I may the better performe in the Chapter following here I thinke good first briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and sufficient marke Note therefore that two things are required in euery sufficient marke The first is that it be not common to many but proper and onely agreeing to the thing whereof it is a marke As for example it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man to say he hath two hands or two eares because this is common to many and therefore no sufficient note or marke whereby one may be distinguished or knowne from all other But a marke whereby we may discerne
thy name prophecied and by thy name cast out diuels and by thy name done many great workes And then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me ye that worke iniquitie But it is strange that you should make true inward sanctitie the marke of the true Church and so confidently affirme that no doubt in the Church there are alwaies some holy when as you maintaine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the true Church that he professe outwardly though he haue no one vertue within him at all If all the members of the Church may be void of holinesse how is holinesse a good marke of the Church Certainly it is at the most but accidentall and such as the Church may haue or lacke without being or ceasing to be a Church thereby He is well holpe vp no doubt that must learne how to know the true Church of such teachers You haue prooued after your fashion that the Church is holy now you will prooue that no companie but the Church is holy No sect of heretickes is truly holy All companies of Christians besides that of the true Church are sects of hereticks Therefore no companie of Christians besides that of the true Church is truly holy If by hereticks you vnderstand onely those that erre in some fundamentall points of religion I grant your Maior and Minor As for the conclusion I am resolued of the truth thereof without any proofe from you But if you acount all hereticks who in the error of their iudgement dissent from other Churches of Christ in matters not fundamentall though true I denie your said Maior and affirme that diuers Churches may differ in opinion one from another and continue in that difference maintaine it confidently so they do it not against their knowledge and conscience and yet all of them be true Churches of Christ and truly holy For as long as the opinions a man holds do not cut him off from being a true member of the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ they make him not cease to be a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified But he that beleeueth truly in Iesus Christ and holds no fundamentall error continues by faith a member of our Sauiours mysticall bodie For as the iust liues by faith so wheresoeuer there is true faith there is life also but there is no life out of the bodie of Christ because the spirit of Christ is not to be had but in his bodie And therefore he that by faith remaineth a member of Christs bodie is a true Christian truly iustified and sanctified though not perfectly holy Here we haue the proofe of your Maior such as it is If the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie be opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the rootes of true sanctitie then no sect of heresies is truly holy But the doctrine it selfe of euerie heresie is opposite to true Christian faith and humilitie the roots of true sanctitie Therefore no sect of hereticks is truly holy If by true Christian faith you meane any particular truth as a Christian ought to beleeue euerie truth of God though not so as that ignorance or misbeleeuing of euerie point can make him cease to be a true Christian I denie the consequence of your Maior I denie your Minor Not euerie heresie but that which is against the foundation onely is opposite to true Christian faith humility vnderstanding by Christian faith such a faith as is necessarily required that a man may be a true Christian by which onely he liues not by beleeuing euerie truth though that be required of him as a dutie of sanctification And so your proofe also is answered A man may haue that faith by which a Christian must liue though he be ignorant or misinstructed in diuers points of doctrine I haue seuered this part concerning humilitie from the former because it seemeth you tooke it to be of more importance and therefore labour more in the proofe of it He that doth not humble himselfe to euerie humane creature for Gods sake but proudly opposeth himselfe against the vniuersall Church cannot be holy But no hereticke doth so humble himselfe and euerie hereticke so oppose Therefore no hereticke can be holy I shewed before that there is no such vniuersall Church as you often name but neuer prooue and therefore this argument grounded vpon opposing against that which is not in regard of such a commaundement as God neuer gaue is idle and vaine More particularly I answer concerning your Maior that although pride be alwaies a sinne yet it may sometimes be found in in a man truly sanctified that in opposition against men in a matter of doctrine But your proposition in regard of the former part of it as you vnderstand it is vtterly false For it is no way against holinesse for a man not to beleeue euery doctrine that men will propound If I or an Angell from Heauen preach any otherwise to you then we haue preached let him be accursed Trie the spirits whether they be of God or no. As for that place of the Apostle which you alledge your owne interpreters expound it not of the Church but of the ciuill Magistrate He cals the office of a King a humane creature saith Caietan because a King is created by the voices or consent of men and he addeth euery that he might take away all distinction betwixt Heathen and Christian kings in respect of obedience to them The Rhemists are yet more against you So he calleth the temporall magistrate say they elected by the people or holding their soueraigntie by birth and carnall propagation ordained for the Worldly wealth power and prosperitie of the subiect to put a difference directly against your interpretation betwixt the humane superioritie and the spirituall Rulers and regiment guiding and gouerning the people to a higher end But what need we any other expositor since the Apostle in the next words directeth vs how to vnderstand it Whether it be vnto the King as vnto the superiour or vnto gouernours as vnto them that are sent of him for the punishment of euill doers and for the praise of them that do well But let vs take it as generally as you will if it be against humilitie not to be subiect to the Church it is also against it not to be subiect to the King Yet I hope no man is so mad as to say that he refuseth to be subiect to him that doth not absolutely obey him in all things How then can this place proue that it is against true Christian humilitie not to beleeue the Church whatsoeuer she propound to be beleeued None but hereticks do so humble themselues and many dissenting from their brethren in diuers opinions neither deserue to be counted hereticks though they cannot be reclaimed from their errors nor to be held for schismaticks as long as they breake not off communion
come This is S. Austins discourse by which he proueth that the true Church of Christ is not contained in a corner of the world but must be dilated and spread in a sort ouer the whole world On the contrary side the congregation of hereticks is not Catholicke neither in time nor place And first for time it is euident because true doctrine was first preached and beleeued as the good seed was first sowne in the field and afterward the cockle that is false doctrine was ouer sowed Saint Paul did for three yeares space teach the Ephesians the true doctrine of faith and had conuersed among them like a lambe seruiens Domino cum omni humilitate seruing our Lord with all humilitie but after his departure he said he knew that rauenous wolues would enter in among them not sparing the flocke and that euen out of their owne company there would arise viriloquentes peruersa vt abducant discipulos post se men speaking peruerse things that they may leade away disciples after themselues And as this happened at Ephesus so doubtlesse in all other places where there hath bin any alteration of Christian doctrine first the true faith was planted by some Apostle or Apostolicke man and afterward the contrary was brought in by some speaking peruerse things thereby leading away disciples after themselues So that it is certaine that no heresie is so auncient as the true faith neither is any one of them of so long continuance for the time to come as S. Paul signified when hauing described heretickes of the latter dayes he addeth sed vltra non proficient insipientia enim eorū manifesta erit omnibus but they shall prosper no further for their folly shall be manifest to all The same doth S. Austin aptly expresse expounding those words of the Psalme Ad nihilum deuenient tanquam aqua decurrens Non vos terreant fratres saith he quidam fluuij qui dicuntur torrentes hyemalibus aquis implentur nolite timere post paululum transit decurrit aqua ad tempus perstrepit mox cessabit diu stare non possunt Multae haereses iam emortuae sunt c. My brethren let not certaine floods called land-brookes terrifie you they are filled with winter waters feare them not after a while the water doth passe and runne downe for a time it maketh a noise but it will cease by and by those flouds cannot stand long Many heresies are now already dead c. Now if we will haue respect of place it is certaine that no heresie is by processe of time to spread it selfe absolutely ouer the whole world as I haue proued that the true Church shall do and the reason hereof may be assigned because as S. Austin saith diu stare non possunt they cannot continue so long as were needfull to get them so vniuersally spred ouer the whole world especially considering that as S. Paul saith when they haue continued a while Insipientia earum manifesta fit omnibus their foolishnesse is made manifest to all and so no maruel si vltra non proficiant if they prosper not nor make no further progresse Neither ordinarily in any one age is heresie so vniuersall in place as the true Catholick religiō but for the most part it is cōtained in one or two countries as it were in a corner of the world So that of hereticks we may wel say as S. Austin doth that they are those which say Ecce hic est Christus ecce illic Behold Christ is here behold he is there that is to say the true doctrine of Christ is onely truly preached in this countrey or that countrey of which kind of people our Sauiour giueth vs warning and biddeth vs saying nolite credere beleeue them not We may wel say also of these as the same S. Austin doth Quaecunque congregatio cuiuslibet haeresis in angulis sedet concubina est non matrona Whatsoeuer congregation of what heresie soeuer sitteth in corners that is to say is but in few prouinces and in the rest of the Christian world either is not at al or at the least is not manifestly knowne to be is a concubine not a matron to wit it is not the spouse of Christ nor the lawfull mother of the children of God Wherefore sith there is this difference betwixt heresie and true Christian religion that as the same Saint Austin saith Singulae haereses in multis gentibus vbi Ecclesia est non inueniuntur Ecclesia autem quae vbique est etiam vbi illae sunt inuenitur Heresies are not found in many nations where the church is but the Church which is euery where is found in those nations where heresies are This difference I say being betwixt heresie and the true religion we need not doubt but that to be Catholicke or vniuersally receiued in the Christian world especially at all times is a note of the truth And that therfore the companie which professeth the faith which at all times and in a sort in all places hath bin receiued of Christians is vndoubtedly the true Church of Christ A. W. What if the true Church be proued to be Catholicke will it follow therupon that therfore it is alwayes Catholick so that a man cannot know which is the true Church but by knowing which Church is Catholick For such must euery good mark be proper to and al times present with that wherof it is a mark But let vs see a little better what Catholicknesse this is which you deliuer for a marke of the Church If you meane by the name Catholicke as if that were the true Church which cals it selfe the Catholicke Church what is more easie then for any false church to take vnto it selfe that name Did not Theudas and Iudas professe themselues to be the Messiah Hath not our Sauiour forewarned vs that there should arise false Christs and false Prophets Yea the Donatists who shut vp the church in a corner of Africa were not ashamed to call themselues the Catholicke Church And as Austin saith All hereticks would be called Catholicks If you vrge the thing signified by the name first not one of your Papists among a thousand vnderstands what this word Catholicke meanes but onely that it is the name of euery one that holdeth of the Church of Rome Secondly if by Catholick Church you meane such a church as hath bin euer since the comming of our Sauiour Christ and shall be at all times and ouer all the world as you expound your selfe how can it be a good marke of the true Church when as it is an impossibilitie that euery man should be able to search and know which church hath alwayes bin which hath not which hath bin euery where which onely in some places and much more vnpossible is it if there be degrees of impossibilitie that euery either learned or vnlearned man shold certainly know which church shal alwayes continue till the end of
make outward profession of beleeuing the Gospell and obeying the Pope though he haue not Christian vertue in him no not so much as that faith he maketh shew of For if this serue to giue vs the right of being true members the Church may well be quite without inward holinesse as a matter not appertaining to the essence or nature of it The last part of your Minor is false the Protestants Churches haue had many thousand holy men euen all that euer held the truth of the Gospell according to the Scriptures and your Church neuer had nor shall haue any one truly sanctified that was wholly a member thereof after your account that is which agreed or agreeth with you in all points of Antichristianisme But I will follow you in your courses and of this say more afterward First you prooue the latter part and dispute against our Church in this sort That Church which hath had no members of it reuealed to be holie by miracle or anie other certaine waie from God hath had no members of it holy But the Protestants Church hath had no members of it reuealed to be holy by miracle or any other certain way from God Therefore the Protestants Church hath had no members of it holy I denie your Maior because it will follow vpon granting it that no man is truly to be counted holy but he that is declared to be so by miracle or some other certaine way from God For your whole discourse sheweth that this is your meaning where you tell vs that No man can be knowne to be holy but by Gods testimonie of his holinesse by miracle or some other certaine way Of miracles by and by In the meane while I would faine know what these other certaine waies are which God vseth to giue vs assurance of this or that mans holinesse will you tell vs a tale of I know not what reuelations out of your Legends and bookes of examples which are full of such fained apparitions Put case those lewde lies were true tales and that the miracles deuised by some of your complices were worthie of credit surely the number of them that haue bene truely holy hath bene verie small if no more haue bene holy then can pleade such miracles or reuelatiōs for proofe of their holinesse As for those that haue testimony of their holinesse from God in the Scriptures both they are verie few in comparison for so many thousand yeares and that meanes of shewing who are holy ceassed aboue one thousand foure hundred yeares since Now concerning Miracles why should we in these daies gape after them like the vnbeleeuing Iewes for the confirmation of any mans holinesse since we haue no warrant nor example of Scripture to apply them to any such purpose Bring me one example if you can out of the whole Scripture of any miracle wrought to prooue any man to be holy The vse of miracles is the confirmation of doctrine or rather the auowing of mens calling from God that their doctrine may be receiued If I do not the works of my Father saith our Sauiour beleeue me not but if I do then though ye beleeue not me yet beleeue the works that ye may know and beleeue that the Father is in me and I in him These things are written that ye might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the sonne of God To that end did our Sauiour furnish his Apostles with power to worke miracles As ye go preach saying the kingdome of God is at hand Heale the sicke cleanse the leaprous raise vp the dead Therefore doth Pacianus require miracles of the Nouatians because they brought in a new Gospell And why I pray you do false Prophets that arise shew many great signes and wonders To prooue themselues to be holy No surely if they desire an opinion of holinesse it is that their doctrine might the rather be receiued But to proceed yet further if no man be holy that hath not miracles to testifie his holinesse I doubt much whether any man may be thought holy or no. For it is out of question that wicked men haue wrought miracles either truely or at least which I rather beleeue in shew so that men could not discerne the contrarie Shall I need to name Pharaoes sorcerers Doth not the Scripture tell vs that false Christs and false Prophets shall shew signes and wonders Doth not the Apostle forewarne vs that Antichrist shal come with signes and lying wonders Your owne schooleman Gabriel Biel telleth vs that miracles are wrought often times by the operation of diuels And Lyra is not afraid to say that Now and then there is great deceit vsed in the Church by miracles fained by the Priests or some that are about them for their worldly commoditie Your Church affoordeth vs examples of notorious lies in this kinde I will name two of your principall Saints Saint Bridget auoucheth that it was reuealed to her that the Virgin Marie was preserued from Originall sinne Saint Katharin of Syena had a quite contrarie reuelation From whom rrow you came these miracles Many miracles saith Theophylact haue bene done by the diuell And Austin speaking of such wonders alledged by the followers of Donatus reiecteth all such as deuises of lying men or illusions of deceitfull spirits Let vs heare your great Master Bellarmines iudgement of this matter where he maintaineth miracles as a marke of the Church Till the Church hath approoued those things that are done for miracles saith Bellarmine it is not euident or certaine by assurance of faith of any miracle that it is a true miracle His reason followeth That it is not euident it appeareth because then faith should be euident That it is not certaine by assurance of faith it is manifest because it is not cleare to vs by such assurance as cannot be false that the thing done is not an illusion of the diuell For though the diuell cannot worke any true miracle yet can he in shew do any thing neuer so wonderfull If then there be no meanes to iudge any man holy but by miracles nor any certaintie but by the testimony of the Church to know which are true miracles doubtlesse you can neuer prooue that your Church is holy because there haue bene holy men members of it till you haue first prooued it to be the true Church But of your proofe enough To your Minor I answer that Bellarmine out of whom you tooke all this maketh the holinesse of your men and their miracles two seuerall proofes though vnder the note of holinesse of life Out of him I say farther that the Patriarks Prophets and Apostles yea all that euer were holy were members of the same Church with vs holding the same doctrine that we do for the substance of it You bid me prooue it But by your leaue the duetie of prouing lies vpon the replier whose place you haue taken not
the doctrine of that Church in the fundamentall points of iustification or rather your Church now is fallen away from the truth in that matter Thou saith Bernard to our Sauiour Christ art made vnto me of God righteousnesse shal I feare lest that one be not sufficient for vs both It is not a shore cloake that cannot couer it will couer both thee and me largely being both a large eternall Iustice As for our righteousnes Bernard altogether as we do acknowledgeth it to be true but vnperfect Our humble righteousnesse if there be any is true perhaps saith he but not pure vnlesse perchance we thinke our selues better then our forefathers who said no lesse truely then humbly all our righteousnesse is as the clouts of a menstruous woman For how can there be pure righteousnesse wheras yet there cannot be fault wanting VVe will not striue greatly with you for Francis or Dominicke though many absurd doctrines which your Church now holds were not in their daies nor before them defined by any Councell nor acknowledged by many of your Diuines To proue that these three were of your Church as it is now you alledge that which is left written of their liues and the religious orders of Monkes and Friers founded by them What is written of them and by whom Doth any man in penning their liues affirme that they held the same things in all points that your Church now holds I trow not But if he do who told him so If he liued in their times he was no prophet to foresee what would be maintained in your Church some hundreds of yeares after his death If he be a late writer what reason haue we to giue credit to him in such a matter farther then he is able to make good that he saith by shewing such an agreement betwixt their doctrine and that which now you teach That they haue left certaine orders behind them we denie not which may serue to proue that they thought it needfull to haue people instructed in the knowledge of the Gospell by preaching and some trained vp of purpose to performe that dutie which was the first end of monasteries But it is no easie matter to shew that your Monkes and Friers are now gouerned according to the rules appointed by them nor any inconuenience for vs to graunt that they were of your opinion touching Frieries and monasteries which are matters far from the foundation of Religion as long as there is no opinion of merit or perfection annexed thereunto The second thing you affirme of them is that they were holy men certainly knowne to be so We are willing in charitie to thinke the best we may and therefore are not hastie to condemne them we know not But this our iudgment is not of certaintie vnlesse we may haue better proofe for it then this you bring Their liues you say and miracles testifie as much But first who shall assure vs that they liued so holily and wrought such miracles Wee must haue certaine knowledge that they were holy men who writ and reported these things ere we can vpon their credit beleeue that they so behaued themselues Secondly put case that their liues were as they are said to haue bene haue you forgotten what you writ a little before It cannot be perfitly knowne of men say you who haue truly a good conscience and an vnfained faith and consequently who be truly saints vnlesse it please God to reueale it by miracle or some other certaine way vnto vs. Thirdly if you thinke to strike it dead by the report of their miracles Biel hath taught vs that they are oftentimes wrought by the diuell or shew made of them by Priests as Lyra saith And Bellarmine resolues that we cannot be assured which be true miracles which false but by the iudgement of the Church Then are we very far from certaine knowledge that these men were holy I meane such knowledge as you speake of that may be a ground of faith to teach vs infallibly which is the true Church by the holinesse of the members thereof But Luther and other of our men confessed them to haue bene saints It had bene plaine dealing to haue said holy men whereas you craftily say saints as if Luther had giuen some approbation of your saints canonized But do Luther and Melanckthon hold them for saints because of their miracles or as a thing certainly knowne to them How could they vnderstand what they were but by report They iudged charitably of them according to the opinion that was of them in the world And for my part I am perswaded of Bernard that he was a man of a sincere heart and true sanctification But for Francis if the report of his fiue wounds be true I will not doubt to affirme that he was either a wretched hypocrite in faining that miracle or a silly ideot to be so abused by the diuell The tale lies thus that this same Saint Francis forsooth should haue in his side hands and feete such wounds as our Sauiour had which continued always green and were made in his bodie by I know not what streames that issued from the Crucifixe from the side hands and feete thereof to his side hands and feete This matter being cunningly caried by this Pope-holy saint a woman saint one Katharine of Sene counterfetted the like and with like successe Afterward euen of late yeares there was the like practise by one Marie a Prioresse in Portugall of Saint Dominicks order who caried the matter very cleanly for a time till it pleased God to discouer her cousinage by meanes of certaine of the Nunnes who thought scorne that she should be a saint rather then they and therefore watched her so narrowly and gaue out such suspicious speeches of her that at last the whole packe of her dissembling was opened and she enioyned fauourable penance of fasting and praying c. There is extant a most abhominable treatise of Saint Francis conformitie to Christ wherein hee is at the least equalled if not preferred before him But because this was none of Francis owne doing let it be as it is the blasphemous sinne of your Church Dominicke was little better then his fellow Francis as his Legend sheweth Vpon these premisses thus weakly proued you bring in two conclusions the former that this holinesse being confessed of those three must needs inferre the like confession of the sanctitie of many other who were also professors of the same Romane faith If their profession had bene the cause of their holinesse then you had not gathered much amisse But their holinesse if the two latter had any arose from their true faith in Christ wrought in them by the holy Ghost the author of that faith But there were many in their times as resolute maintainers of the Romish Religion as they who neuer attained to any such opinion of holinesse and the faith you Romanists now professe is in maine points of
iustification and free-will other then that which Bernard taught For though I haue followed you in saying their holinesse yet I acknowledge none of the three to haue bene holy but onely Bernard Neither are our Kalenders any euidence to proue the holines of the rest of your Saints though their names are continued by Almanacke writers because many old deeds and euidences are dated by their names and not by the dayes of the moneth The Saints Athanasius and Bernard write of were none of your Church and yet by your iudgement both of them might be deceiued in determining who were Saints As for Antoninus and Surius two of your Popes vassailes their testimonie is little worth in any indifferent mans opinion Your latter conclusion is that some part of your Church is holy and that therefore the whole may be termed holy But as I haue said whatsoeuer holinesse was in any of the professed members of your Church it sprung from another roote then growes in your church Neither is there any reason to terme your whole companie holy because a few among them are holy who in regard of their holinesse are indeed none of your company That which they haue common with the rest of you makes them not holy but rather vnholy namely their profession of subiection to your sea of Rome and their erring with you in diuers points of doctrine their holinesse growes from a true acknowledgement of saluation by faith onely and a resting vpon Iesus Christ accordingly without any opinion of merit in their owne actions either before or after grace together with a beleefe and feeling that not they themselues by their free will enlightened but God by his mercy and grace made difference betwixt them and other vouchsafing them the gift of faith and not bestowing it vpon other Your similitude of painting painteth out the fondnesse of your conceit For being a Christian answers to being a painter in this similitude and being holy to being skilfull Now as euery man that is free of that Companie is by his freedome a painter but not thereby skilfull so all that professe Christian Religion are thereby Christians but not therefore holy Neither if one or two or a few of these painters were skilful would any discreet man say that the whole company might be termed skilfull because all make profession of the same art of painting wherein some of them are skilfull How falsly our doctrine was slaundered by you with inducing men to libertie I shewed in my answer to your accusation now let vs see wherein yours is better First you propound two general points that it forbids expresly all vice and prescribes lawes contrary to libertie And are you able to charge vs with the contrary Doe we not more strictly interprete the lawes of God then you do Are we not further from idolatry allowing no religious vse of any image Do we not more abhorre swearing and expound the third commandement against your prophane othes of Masse Marie Ladie and all your Saints which you account matters of smal moment Who teach men to keepe the whole Sabbath you or we Who make a maine point of Gods law the loue of our enemies a counsell and not a commaundement we or you Who maintaine aequiuocation officious lies but you Are not you they that hold murdering of Princes yea euen of your owne Soueraignes to be meritorious workes What should I name particulars You are the men that make the corruption of our nature to be nothing else but the want of righteousnesse that ought to be in vs. You are the men who teach vs that originall sinne in the regenerate is not properly sinne that vncleane vnnaturall vnruly ambitious couetous murderous and such like thoughts and motions are no sinnes vnlesse we yeeld to them or delight in them Doe not you perswade men that many sinnes are not mortall but veniall and so make men rush into them without feare or shame Your second point is that your religion containes most soueraigne meanes to incite men to perfit vertue and holinesse of life What more soueraigne then God hath appointed in his word You will not dare to say so for very shame of the world It remaines then that you shew what meanes we neglect of al them that God hath commaunded vs to vse Do we not minister the sacraments to our people Do we not offer vp prayers supplications and intercessions to God for them But that I may not runne through all particulars at once let vs see what you bring peece by peece This first point giueth a tast of that maine difference which may be obserued betwixt your Religion and ours You so carie the matter that you alwayes prouide for the freedome of mans will whatsoeuer become of the glorie of God We make it our chiefe care to aduance Gods glorie though thereby we take somewhat from the pride of man Let vs make this manifest in the particular question we haue in hand Wherein first wee graunt as much as you affirme that Gods predestination doth not take away mans free will But herein lies the difference betwixt you and vs you teach that God doth onely giue a man abilitie to beleeue and doe good workes leauing it to himselfe to beleeue or not to beleeue to do good or not to do good We contrariwise auouch that God besides this abilitie doth also incline our hearts to beleeue and do according to his owne holy purpose yet doe we not any way imagine that a man is forced to beleeue but onely teach that whereas any man beleeueth it was fore appointed by God that hee should beleeue neither could it in the euent otherwise fall out though he did beleeue willingly and by his owne choise Your doctrine maketh a man more beholding to himselfe then to God for his faith and good workes because God did no more for him then he doth ordinarily for many other men who are yet vtterly cast away God indeede gaue him abilitie to beleeue if he would but for all that he might haue refused to beleeue and so haue bene damned Therefore whereas he doth beleeue and is saued he may thanke himselfe and not God Thus you prouide for mans free will with the impeachment of Gods glorie We on the other side acknowledge that as we haue power to beleeue from the grace of God so it is he that worketh our hearts to beleeue and certainly and necessarily in regard of the euent though freely in respect of our will brings vs to beleeue in Iesus Christ So that you by this opinion giue man the glorie of his saluation wee leaue it wholly to God Now for the despaire of shunning euill and doing well which in your conceit ensueth vpon our opinion there is no such matter Who shall be in despaire of shunning sinne by this doctrine No man that hath grace For with him the spirit of God is alwayes present to prouoke and incline him to well doing And this must needs encourage him
and long before he was borne had many congregations in it who held the same faith that we now do You confesse they were not of your Church for then what needed or how could they haue bene conuerted by Austine That the Gospell was here long before that time euen in a manner from the first preaching of it Polydor Virgill no Protestant may teach you out of Gildas a Brittish writer ancienter then Bede Gildas witnesseth saith Polydor that the Brittans receiued the Gospell presently vpon the first publishing of it abrode in the world Yea Bede your owne author auoucheth that seuen Bishops of the Brittans and many verie learned men refused to receiue Austine for their Archbishop And Geffrey of Monmouth testifieth that Ethelbat king of Kent caused 1200. monkes of Bangor to be slaine in one day because they would not yeeld to Austins Archbishopricke of whom that writer saith that they decked with martyrdome entred the kingdome of heauen Mark you what he saith They were martyrs that chose to die rather then to yeeld to your Popish Archbishop The like conuersion we may find in the Indies especially the West where your Catholicke nation the Spaniards haue destroyed in few yeares more soules then all sent by the Pope or agreeing in faith with him euer conuerted in fiue times so many Although what tell you vs of men communicating with the Pope in the same faith How durst they attempt any such matter without speciall commission from him Is his authoritie no more amongst you The Romane Church hath indeed alwayes bene visible but it hath not alwayes bene the same Church For many hundred yeares it was ours and not yours though the diuell laboured to sow the tares you now sell for corne among the wheate and preuailed by little and little It is therefore ridiculous for you to challenge vs that we should shew when the faith receiued by the Church of Rome from the Apostles began to faile in it It was done as our Sauiour speakes in the like case while men slept and so slily peece by peece that the corne was ouergrowne ere the tares were perceiued most men tooke them for wheate they that saw some difference thought them too deeply rooted for them to plucke vp and if any man offered to touch them with his weeding hooke Satan had taken order by your Pope and his Cleargie that the hooke should be wrung out of his hands and if he held hard his head be wrung off his shoulders Thus one man being taught by anothers calamitie as in hunting with the Lion the Foxe was by the Asses misery euery one thought it best to sleepe in a whole skin and to beare with that they could not helpe Yet are there many examples of those who from time to time haue withstood the tyrannie of your Pope and your heresies in Religion and many more we should haue heard of if your Popish Cleargie had not bin chiefe commaunders through all Europe What is all this painted discourse but a flourishing repetition of that which hath bene often answered like coleworts twice sod and strewed ouer with sugar Onely to grace the seruice you send in the dish by one who in your eyes is a proper man But do you not know that as wel his owne treason as the continuall practises of his companions and aboue all the late diuellish fire worke of your superiour Garnets approbation haue made Campions authoritie light and the name of a Iesuite odious to all true hearted Englishmen Let vs take the Traitor at the best and giue him some commendation of wit and of a quicke cornicall stile If once his writings be stript of their rhetoricall habit and set naked before the light of true logicke it will appeare to all the world I will say no more then I am able to manifest that neuer any man so doted vpon by them that would seeme to be great clearkes writ more weakly or vnsoundly You tell vs that the Romane Church was once a true Church We acknowledge it with thankes to God and due commendation thereof and are loth to say any thing whereby the best opinion of it might be diminished but that you driue vs to it by building vpon that high commendation which S. Paul say you hath left written of it as if it had once bene so extraordinarily rooted that no blast could shake it But how vaine a conceit this is it will easily be seene if we consider that other Churches which haue had as great commendations are now no Churches at all What is become of that famous Church at Corinth of which the Apostle testifieth that In all things it was made rich in Christ in all kind of speech and in all knowledge so that they were not destitute of any gift yea the Apostle addeth that Iesus Christ shall also confirme them vnto the end that they may be blamelesse in the day of our Lord Iesus This passeth that he saith of the Romanes The like he saith of the Philippians I thanke my God because of the fellowship which you haue in the Gospell from the first day vntill now and I am perswaded of the same thing that he which hath begun this good worke in you will performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ How would you haue triumphed if the Apostle had said as much of your Church But what say you to the Church of Thessalonica From you saith the Apostle of the Thessalonians sounded out the word of the Lord not in Macedonia and Achaia onely but your faith also which is toward God is spread abroade in all quarters Are not these commendations as great as those that are left written of the Romanes Yea what if that which the Apostle speakes of them be not to commend their faith but to shew the reason of his ioy and thankes to God for their conuersion As if he should haue said that he did thanke God for them because of their beleeuing and the report thereof through the world was like to proue an occasion of spreading the Gospell and drawing many other by their example to the profession of Christian Religion and confirming them that did beleeue He declares saith Caietan that the cause of his thanksgiuing was that the fame of their beleeuing was profitable to all the world For Rome at that time was the head of the world and therefore the report of the Christian faith being at Rome was spread abroade into all places and was profitable to all as being a meanes to prouoke them to beleeue Of the confirming of others Lombard saith that they which beleeued were strengthened in faith seeing that their rulers were made their brethren in faith So do Origen Theodoret your Glosses Lyra Thomas Catharin and other vnderstand the Apostle Ambrose is not afraid to say plainly that the Apostle reioyceth for their good beginning knowing that they might go forward to perfection For as
so many Bishops of their faction Vincentius acknowledgeth a succession continued though secretly from Simon Magus to Priscilian Let vs see ' now whether you bring any better reason for your selues then you haue done against vs They are euen much about one That Church which can shew a line all succession of her Bishops without interruption from the Apostle Peter to Cloment now liuing is Apostolicke But the Church of Rome can shew such a succession without interruption Therefore the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Tertullian thought it sufficient to proue the hereticks not to be Apostolicke that their doctrine agreed not with the Apostles And Ambrose truly affirmed that they haue not the inheritance of Peter which haue not the faith of Peter He saith Nazianzen that professeth the same doctrine of faith is partaker of the same throne But he that embraceth contrary doctrine must be thought an aduersary euen in the throne He may haue the name but the other hath the truth of succession Therefore Irenaeus saith plainly that those Bishops onely are to be obeyed who together with succession haue the truth But of this I spake before Chap. 15. Where there is no beginning what continuance or successiō can there be Is not the question whether Peter were euer at Rome or no full of doubt Are you able in any sort to resolue it by Scripture vnlesse perhaps we may say that he neuer came there because it is no where plainly set downe nor probably to be gathered from thēce that euer Saint Peter was at Rome But it is more vnlikely that euer he was Bishop of Rome I might go forward to aske you who was his successor Linus or Clement which is a point not agreed vpon by auncient writers Since that time you haue had 32. schismes in your Church sometimes two sometimes three Popes at once that your succession cannot be so cleare as you would make it To proue your minor you tell vs that the auncient Fathers did much esteeme succession from the Apostles and vsed it as an argument to confound the hereticks and to confirme themselues in the vnitie of the Catholicke Church Who denieth that succession is to be esteemed and that it hath some force to confute and confirme But what succession is it that is of such price force Personall succession alone without truth VVe heard ere while what Tertullian Irenaeus Nazianzen and Ambrose say concerning succession that without truth it deserueth no credit Yea some of your owne writers confesse that an argument from succession doth not hold affirmatiuely as if there were a true Church wheresoeuer there is succession VVherby doth Irenaeus confound heresies by shewing a personall succession of Bishops from the Apostles VVhat could that helpe the matter vnlesse he be also able to proue that the doctrine he maintaines hath come successiuely from the Apostles by them He speaks plaine enough We confound all errors by the doctrine of the Apostles and the faith preached to men by thē Let not the word tradition trouble any man Irenaeus for that expounds himselfe where he saith that the Apostles first preached the Gospell and afterward by the will of God deliuered it to vs in the Scriptures to be the pillar and foundation of our faith The continuance of this doctrine by succession is vsed by Irenaeus as a motiue to perswade men to the liking of that truth which had receiued so good acceptation and was warranted by so good authority as the teaching of the Apostles themselues In a word Irenaeus saith that heresies might then be refuted by shewing that they who had bene ordained Bb. by the Apostles and their successors continued in the doctrine receiued without any approbation of such hereticall fancies Austin you say was held in the Church as himselfe professeth by the succession of Priests from the verie seat of Peter And why should he not be held by that rather thē leaue the Church for the dreames of the Manichees VVe say as Austin did that such a succession is a better proof of the Church then their bare promise of truth especially since as the same Austin sheweth otherwhere they wold haue their word to be takē as you now would haue yours for sufficient proofe But Austin in the verie same place you alledge addeth withall that if they could shew that the truth was on their side he would preferre it before succession and whatsoeuer other reason that made him continue a member of the Church In this sense did those other ancient writers esteeme and vrge succession whose names you muster to small purpose but onely for shew of authoritie Concerning that speech of Athanasius be not so iniurious either to him or your selues as to presse his testimony to so leud a purpose Would you haue men thinke that he which refuted and confounded Arius and his complices by so many and so worthy proofes out of the holy Scriptures would condemne not onely other men but himselfe also for deriuing his faith in that point from the Scriptures But though you care not what become of all the Fathers so your Popery may flourish yet like a reasonable man consider what a terrible blow you giue your owne cause Is there no other marke of the Church but succession Then by Bellarmines iudgement there is none at all who allowes it not as a certaine light to shew vs the Church But what wants it of blasphemy to pronounce men to be hereticks for making the Scriptures the foundation of their faith to which purpose Irenaeus saith that they were left And I pray you answer me directly why it should not be as lawful for me to groūd my faith vpon the beginning of this succession in the Apostles as vpon the continuance of it in other men Yet might Athanasius well say concerning that point of our Sauiour Christs Godhead that he was to be counted an hereticke that should deriue the beginning of his faith from any other ground then the whole succession wherein the Apostles were comprehended and whose doctrine the Churches of Christ till that time in that matter had followed But how will you proue out of this place of Athanasius that this should be a mark to discerne hereticks by alwaies It was then an excellent and admirable argument in that point not of it owne nature but because the truth had successiuely bene held till those times How will you answer Bellarmine who affirmes confidently and truly that truth goes not alwaies with succession For if it did why should not succession be a certaine mark of a true Church But Bellarmine saith it is not You tell vs that otherwise the ordinance of Pastors made by our Sauiour Christ shall be frustrate of the effect intended by him What vnlesse there be truth wheresoeuer there is succession Then can it not come to passe that any Pastor hauing lawfull ordination can erre For if one
may for all the priuiledge of succession doubtles succession doth not by the nature of it free a man from erring But they cannot all vniuersally erre What is that to purpose vnlesse this impossibilitie of erring proceed from succession Let vs draw your reason into forme that we may the better see the force or weaknesse of it If our Sauiour haue appointed a succession of Pastors that the Church may not be caried away with euery blast of doctrine then succession and truth go together But our Sauiour hath appointed Pastors to that purpose Therefore succession and truth go together Now the weaknesse of your reason easily bewrayes it selfe the consequence of your maior is so feeble Shall I shew it you euidently in a like matter If God appointed Dauid and his successors to rule his people according to his wil and word that they might truly serue him then whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God But God did appoint Dauid and his successors to that end Therefore whosoeuer succeeded Dauid did so rule and the people so serued God I shall not neede to make any further answer to your maior vnlesse perhaps I may bring the like reason from Gods appointing a succession of Priests and Leuites in the Church of the Iewes to the very same end that the people might know and do his will which intent of his notwithstanding was often made voyde both by Priests and people Yet do not we say that the world hath at any time bene without true Pastors and their flockes in some one place or other in a greater or lesse number who haue taught and beleeued the true faith of Iesus Christ in all points fundamentall without distinct beleefe whereof no man can be saued But we denie that either all or any Pastor hath this priuiledge because of his succession yea we affirme that a Christian congregation where the ordinarie meanes cannot be had may chuse and authorize any man able and fit to teach for their Minister and the truth of God may be in such companies preserued without any plea of not erring by reason of succession established by vertue of our Sauiours appointment To that of Nazianzen I answered before he speaketh not of the vniuersall Church as you falsly auouch but of seuerall congregations as his very words shew Order saith he hath decreed in Churches not in the vniuersall Church that the flocke and the Pastor should be diuers the flocke one thing the Pastor another or that some should be the flocke othersome the shepheards You may say what you will and be neuer a whit the nearer if you bring no better proofe then yet you haue done Saint Augustine biddeth the Donatists number the Priests and see who haue succeeded one another in the Bishopricke of Rome What conclude you from thence That the Church of Rome was at that time Apostolicke in regard of personall succession Who denieth it But it followeth not hereupon either that it is still in that sort Apostolicke about which we will not striue or which is the principall matter that it hath therefore such Apostolicknesse as is required to make a true Church namely truth of doctrine which must needs be meant by Augustine in the words that immediatly follow That is the rocke against which the proud gates of hell preuaile not For it is more then absurd to make personall succession the rocke on which the Church is builded and against which hell gates cannot preuaile It was a likely argument against the Donatists that in so long a succession there had bene neuer a Donatist which Saint Augustine himselfe in another place concludeth after he hath reckoned vp all the Romane Bishops from Linus to Anastasius then liuing In the ranke of this succession saith Augustine there is not one Bishop found that was a Donatist This testimonie of Irenaeus was neuer of your owne reading in him as the corrupt alledging of it perswadeth me I will set it downe as it is in the author himselfe By this ordination and succession saith Irenaeus the tradition of the Apostles hath come to vs And this is a most full demonstration that it is one and the same quickning faith which hath bene preserued and truly taught in the Church from the Apostles till now What one word or letter is there in this sentence to prooue that your Church of Rome at this day is Apostolicke or that bare personall succession is enough to make a Church Apostolicke Rome in Irenaeus time was an Apostolicall Church because it had preserued and truly taught successiuely Bishop after Bishop the doctrine which was deliuered by the Apostles Is it therefore Apostolicke now when it hath ouerthrowne the verie foundation of the Apostles doctrine I maruell what Apostolicke Churches they are with which you communicate whereas you say that there is no Church that hath succession from the Apostles but yours Your Monks of Burdeaux draw the vniuersall Church to the communion of the Romish Church It was indeed a testimonie of the truth to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches in Tertullians time while the truth was for the substance of it preserued amongst them But let vs apply this to our purpose what would you prooue by it that the Church of Rome is Apostolicke Here is no mention nor thought of your Church in particular But Tertullian saith it is a testimonie of truth for a man to communicate with the Apostolicke Churches It was then a testimonie but now those Churches are decayed or if some of them remaine amongst the Grecians wil you grant that all they hold is true How will you prooue that Tertullians generall speech belongeth more to your Church then to those of the Greeks Tertullian telleth you afterward that contrarietie to the Apostles doctrine may conuince Churches not to be Apostolicke though they alledge succession from the Apostles But his opinion may sufficiently appeare by that which hath bene formerly alledged out of him and the truth of this whole question by your discourse and my answer to it A. D. CHAP. XVII The Conclusion of the whole discourse A. W. The conclusion of your whole discourse as your selfe expound it in your preface is this that the faith which the authoritie of the Romane Church commendeth to vs ought without doubt to be holden for the true faith But this Chapter is such as that you might rather terme it a recapitulation then a conclusion of your discourse For the greatest part of it by farre is spent in a needlesse repetition of that which was before deliuered and that which should be indeed your conclusion is scarce signified in it A. D. §. 1. Now to make an end considering all this which I haue said and prooued to wit that there is but one infallible entire faith the which is necessarie to saluation to all sorts of men the which faith euerie one must learne by some knowne
this possibilitie tooke effect in me I may thanke my selfe more then God so that by this doctrine the glorie of euerie particular mans saluation is more due to the partie saued then to God the Sauiour Now on the contrarie side if that we teach be true the losse falles on mans part and not vpon Gods Is any man drawne out of the Iawes of hell and damnation The whole glorie redounds to God It was he that prouided meanes of saluation it was he that gaue me in particular knowledge of that meanes It was he that when I was as vntoward and vnwilling to be saued as the most damned reprobate wrought me to beleeue can I euer be vnmindfull or vnthankfull by inclining my heart to like and accept of his grace and faith in Christ But in the meane while I loose the commendation and the glory of vsing the grace of God well by my free-will O Adam Adam earth and ashes how fast doth that pride of nature whereby thou wast destroyed in thy selfe though in thee it were not naturall cleaue to euerie one of thy posteritie We had rather be thought able to gouerne our selues then be gouerned by God It is more pleasing to vs to hazard our saluation vpon the nice choise of our owne free-will then to be assured of it by the mercie of God working in vs this choise to will O that as we are all partakers of Adams pride so we might also partake with his repentance and faith Would Adam trow ye if it might be put to his choise againe venture vpon his owne free-will though he were as pure as euer he was rather then rest secure vpon Gods almightie and most certaine protection No no blessed soule he knoweth by wofull experience though by Gods vnspeakable goodnesse to his and our greater glorie that he and he only is out of danger who resignes himselfe into Gods hands to be disposed of at his gracious pleasure Why refuse we to be like to Adam in this Will we follow him in that onely of which onely he is ashamed Is it not more glorie to arise with him then to haue fallē with him O why do we euery day renew the memorie of his fault by committing the like Doth the brightnesse of the truth in these points dazle your eies Me thinks I see many of you offering to presse forward as it were to take the kingdome of heauen the doctrine of the Gospell by violence why recoile you Why quaile you on a sodaine The bare name of the Church not onely stayeth you but beateth you backward The Romish Church cannot erre VVho telleth you so Surely they that can erre your Priests and Iesuits Giue me leaue I pray you to question with you a little and for a minute of an hower be content to make vse of that reason and knowledge which God hath giuen you without forestalling your iudgements by preiudice of the authoritie of the Church Doth it not appeare to you by the light of naturall reason that the maine end of all religion is the glorie of God Do not your owne consciences testifie in the simplicitie of your hearts that it maketh more for the glorie of God that men should be beholding to his Maiestie for their saluation then that they should procure it to themselues Is it not also apparent to you in the secret of your owne soules that our doctrine by beating downe the pride of mans free-will aduanceth the glorie of Gods mercie and yours by hoysing vp the conceit of mans good choise presseth downe the estimation of Gods vnspeakable goodnesse And shall an idle sound weigh more with you then sound reason Consider I beseech you what weake grounds you build this opinion of the Church vpon I will point at that which in my answer I haue handled Can you in any sort compare the opinion of the Churches authoritie with the euidence of those matters wherewith before I pressed you Is it as cleere that there are certaine men whom I must beleeue whatsoeuer they teach as it is that I must seeke the aduancing of Gods glory more then of mine owne pride Are you as sure that these Priests and Iesuits which are your teachers be sent by the true Church and deliuer nothing but the doctrine of the true Chruch as you are that they who perswade you to rest wholy vpon God and not at all vpon your selues shew you the right way to procure Gods glory and your owne saluation Tush say you all is nothing vnlesse I beleeue it vpon the credit of the Church Alaste how did the first Christians who neuer thought on the authoritie of the Church when they heard and beleeued the Apostles doctrine Looke ouer all the Historie of the Actes peruse the Sermons of Peter and Paule and tell me whether you finde that euer they pleaded the authoritie of the Church to procure beleefe of their doctrine After men are conuerted the authoritie of the Church hath her due place and must beare sway in matters in different but for the auowing of truth her bare word is neuer of sufficient importance It was the doctrine of the Apostles that wrought vpon the hearts of men by the cleare euidence of it through the power of the Spirit wherewith it was accompanied What that doctrine was where should we learne but in the scriptures wherein they haue written what they preached These you say giue such authoritie to the Church This were somewhat if you made not their authoritie in respect of vs to depend vpon the Church The scriptures say your Doctors haue in themselues authoritie as being from God but they are not of authoritie to vs but onely by the authoritie of the Church I perceiue you are ashamed of these absurdities The Church must be beleeued vpon her word Why so The Scripture saith so How shall I know that these bookes are scripture The Church saith so The Church and the scripture prooue each other by their mutuall testimonie they giue each of other I beleeue the Church because the scripture biddeth me I beleeue the scripture because the Church biddeth me If these things seeme to be absurd as indeed they are most absurd blinde not your selues any longer with such mists of errour but come out of them to the cleare light of the scriptures reade them diligently meditate in them carefully call vpon God for his grace earnestly resigne your selues and your free-will to him sincerelie and the Lord that is most readie to blesse them that vse the meanes of knowledge and faith in humilitie and singlenesse of heart will assuredly enlighten your vnderstanding and incline your affections that you shall discerne like of and embrace the true doctrine of Iustification by faith in Iesus Christ and shall renounce your owne righteousnesse and free-will to the glorie of his grace and the present comfort and euerlasting saluation of your bodies and soules through the same his sonne to whom with the Father and the holy Ghost be all
purpose A. D. §. 1. As this one infallible and entire faith is necessary to saluation to all sorts of men as well vnlearned as learned so we must say that almightie God Qui vult omnes homines saluos fieri ad agnitionem veritatis venire who would haue all men to be saued and to come to the knowledge of truth hath for proofe that this of his part is a true will prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith and that the onely cause why any man misseth of the true faith is either because he doth not seeke out and find this rule and meanes or hauing found it he will not vse it and in all points submitting his owne sense selfe opinion and proper iudgement obediently yeeld assent vnto it as the nature of diuine faith and the dutie of euery Christian bindeth him to do This is proued because if Almightie God hath a true will of his part to leade all men to this happie end of eternall saluation as it may be plainly proued that he hath out of Scripture and Fathers he must needs prouide them sufficient meanes by which it may at least be possible for them to attaine that end For we neuer say that God hath a will to do any thing vnlesse he do either absolutely worke the thing or at least prouide meanes sufficient by which it is possible to be done But vnlesse there be such a rule or meanes prouided by which euery one learned and vnlearned may attaine to this one infallible and entire faith of which I haue spoken before there are not sufficient meanes prouided by which it is possible for all men to come to saluation sith as I proued without that faith it is vnpossible for any one to come to saluation Therefore we must needs say that Almightie God hath prouided this rule or meanes by which euery man euen the most vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed in matters of faith A. W. Whether your comparison by which you propound this point be of likenesse or equalitie I see not what agreement the one part can haue with the other But to let that passe because it is of no great moment I am now earnestly to request all men Protestants and Papists who will vouchsafe to reade my answer that they would giue me leaue to examine this treatise by the light of true reason and themselues take a little paines more then ordinary in the vnderstanding of it We are then first of all to remember that the summe of this treatise was propounded by the author himselfe in his preface to this effect That the faith which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commendeth to vs is without doubt to be holden for the true faith and that the faith which the authoritie of the Church of Rome commendeth to vs is that faith Now then these two points being proued that which was intended is dispatched and either of these failing the matter is still in question For proofe of the former proposition or sentence he disputeth on this maner That we must needs admit an infallible authoritie in the Catholicke Church by reason whereof euery one must learne of it onely what is the true faith Now he addresseth himselfe to the proofe of this last proposition which as I shewed in my answer to the Preface is the assumption of his second Syllogisme and thus he reasoneth If God haue not prouided some rule or means whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently in all points questions or doubts of faith be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for the true faith vnlesse we admit such an authority then we must needs admit it But God hath not prouided any rule or meanes vnlesse we admit such an authoritie Therefore we must needs admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church The ground of the proposition or maior is this that God will haue all as well vnlearned as learned to be saued Which being vnderstood I answer concerning the consequence of the proposition that it is false I will be as plaine as I can that euery one may vnderstand me If his meaning be that we must admit such an authoritie in the Catholicke Church because without it there are no sufficient meanes of saluation for euery particular learned and vnlearned man I deny the consequence of his proposition For neither is it necessary to saluation that a man should be infallibly instructed in all points questions doubts of faith and God neuer had any purpose that euery particular man should be affoorded that meanes of saluation I will not spend time nor labor in this point it may be proued sufficiently by this his argument For these means he imagineth of a visible Church alwayes continuing are not such but that before the comming of our Sauiour and since also many thousands haue liued and died which could neuer haue any suspition or thought of such a Church Till it pleased our Sauiour to send his Apostles with a generall commission the knowledge of him was shut vp within the land of Iewry or at the most was heard of but in the countries neare adioyning After the commission giuen it asked some time for the Apostles to disperse themselues ouer the world and in that time many thousands must needs die without the knowledge of our Sauiour Christ But what speake I of the beginnings of the Gospell How many countries are there in which no steps of the Gospell haue bene to which no little sound of it hath come for many hundred yeares Austin sayth that in his time there were many nations to whom the Gospell had not then bene preached yea it was commonly held amongst the auncient writers that the day of iudgement should speedily ensue after the Gospell had bene preached in all the world If you vrge that place of Timothie that God wil haue all men to be saued you shall be answered by one of your owne side that all signifies all kind of men not euery man of euery kind of euery kind many They are called all saith Fulgentius because God saueth them out of euery nation condition age out of euery prouince of euery language So doth Austin expound that text in diuers places though hee bring also some other interpretations but all against the conceits of men that would haue all taken for euery one The like exposition he giueth of that in the Gospell I wil draw all to me All kinds of men in all languages in all ages in all degrees of honor in all diuersities of dispositions and wits in all professions of arts lawful and profitable c. Holkot not the meanest of your school-men maketh this sense of those words God will haue all men to be saued that is saith he God hath made all men capable
deuise of a Poet then a discourse of an historie writer then that they will condemne your whole congregation of more then Turkish or any other heathenish barbarousnesse And do you with a shamelesse brazen forehead come vpon the stage to brag of holinesse Despise not so much the long suffering of God as to make a shew of religion after so many abhominable treasons and murders arising directly from the principles of your profession and agreeing exactly with the ordinarie plots and courses of your holy Father who in the raigne of our late gracious Soueraigne practised diuers treasons by his wicked instruments For proofe of that I say let them which vnderstand Italian reade the report of his Secretarie who propounds diuers of them to the commendation of his maisters zeale for labouring to reduce to the Church them that were fallen from the obedience thereunto But the memorie and in a manner the feeling of that horrible treason Nouemb 5. 1605. is yet so fresh and greene that he deserues not to be held either for a Christian a true hearted Englishman or a reasonable man that lookes for fruites of holinesse from trees planted in the Popes orchard Alas this proofe might well haue bene spared For there is no doubt but your Church of Rome hath store of wicked men and that you bring out of the Canticles neither belongs to your Church nor concernes the vngodly The Church spoken of in that excellent song is the spouse of Christ one flesh with his holy maiestie the companie of the elect called to true faith in the Son of God Among these there is not one prophane Esau or bloudie Cain such as diuers of your Popes haue bene not onely your ordinarie Papists But this blacknesse and beautie how contrary soeuer they seeme as Bernard truly saith belong to one and the same person Wilt thou haue mee shew thee a soule saith he that is both blacke and beautifull His epistles say they are of some worth but his bodily presence is weake and his speech contemptible The blacknesse is outward in mens sight the beautie in ward seene of God Therefore he addeth a litle after that A true Christian soule is blacke in the iudgement of the world but faire in the sight of God and of his Angels The spouse saith Bernard in another place is blacke but beautifull The Apostles are men full of sorrow yet alwayes reioycing Christ himselfe if you looke vpon him with such eyes as the Iewes did had neither forme nor beautie Other refer this to the estate of men before and after their calling before they are blacke afterward faire Other for allegories affoord varietie of interpretation apply it to the Church mixt of Iewes and Gentiles which is blacke because of the Gentiles who before knew not God Psellus maketh the blacknesse to arise from our estate in Adam the beautie from our righteousnesse in Christ Many vnderstand by blacknesse the outward affliction of the Church None that I haue seene but Lyra expound it of the wicked and yet he also rather liketh of that other interpretation which maketh this blacknesse to be according to the conceipt of the world But I will not greatly striue about the true sense which is so doubtfull onely I take that exposition which you bring to be the worst because it cannot agree to the true Church of Christ the companie of the elect called among whom there are none blacke that is wholy wicked though all be blacke in regard of their nature and faire in their head Christ You haue laboured to shew that the Protestants Church is not holy because it hath no holy men in it From that point you posted ouer to proue your owne Church to be holy Here you returne againe to the disgracing of our Church as if your holinesse were so darke in it selfe that it needed ours to be layd vnder it for a foyle that it might shew the better But let vs examine your proofe in this comparison If that Church be holy some members whereof haue bene holy that vnholy no members whereof haue bene holy and some members of the Roman Church haue bene holy none of the Protestants Church then the Romane Church is holy the Protestants Church vnholy But that Church some members whereof haue bene holy is holy that vnholy no members whereof haue bene holy and some members of the Romane Church haue bene holy none of the Protestants Church Therefore the Romane Church is holy the Protestants Church vnholy Your Minor is false in both parts of it For the former if by holinesse you vnderstand true inward holinesse according to your former exposition no companie may be counted truely holy because some few among them are holy For true holinesse is a qualitie proper to them in whom it is and such as cannot be communicated to any multitude ioyntly considered nor affirmed of it vnlesse the greater part be truly holy If any man will presse me with the Apostles authoritie who calleth the Corinthians and all Christians in Achaia Saints I answer that the reason of his so calling them is not because some among them were truely holy but because they all made profession of true faith in Christ which is alwaies accompanied with sanctification According to this profession of theirs the Apostle charitably iudgeth of them and tearmes them Saints by calling as if he should say that they are Saints because they professe themselues called to holinesse of life This appeareth the rather because otherwhere to be Saints and to be faithfull is all one where faithfulnesse is ascribed to whole congregations professing the faith of the Gospell Therefore the holinesse of some few maketh not all the Church truely holy no more then Eliah and those seuen thousand reserued by God made the whole Church of Israell holy in the sight of God which was an idolatrous congregation and vnholy for all these holy men were in some respect outwardly members thereof But let vs grant that the holinesse of fome few may priuiledge all for this title of holinesse yet in the second place we may iustly except against the stretching of this priuiledge to all that euer shall be by succession of that companie Were it not ridiculous trow you for you Romanes that now are to claime the reputation of valour or the Iewes the opinion of holinesse because the estate of Rome and the Church of the Iewes had many valiant holy men some hundreds of yeares since How then can it be true that a Church is holy because it hath had I know not how long ago some holy men members of it The other part of your Minor I acknowledge to be true that no Church is holy which hath not some holy men members of it But I see not how this can stand with your doctrine that it is enough to make a man a true member of the holy Catholicke Apostolick Church that he