condemne themselues Why Catholikes censure Protestants so hardly But we Catholikes censure Protestants first becaus they refuse that which we hold to be the true rule of faith to witt the churche's authoritie or tradition And sithence the rule of faith runne's through the whole course of our beliefe ād is the tennor and principle vpon which we hold euerie particular article t' is euident that who doth not accepte of this right and true rule of attaining to the knowledge of Christian faith cannot belieue aright nor haue true faith but by chance and therefore will misse it for the most part Secondly this rule of ours tell 's vs that Protestant's negatiue positions are against the generall good of the multitude of Christians that is against charitie and God's law hindering them from diuers important and necessarie meanes conducing to saluation Lastly it were meere folly to leaue possession vpon a slight argument For as in equalitie the better proofe should carrie the cause the equall deuide it so where there is possession on the one side there nothing but such conuiction as the nature of the cause doth beare ought to waine possession otherwise no human possession would be stable and constant Now Catholikes are as certaine of these two pointes as that they liue and breath to witt that they haue possession And that there 's no euident conuiction hitherto passed and shewed against them Wherefore I see not why a Protestant should be offended that the Catholikes censure all their Aduersaries in generall so seuerely sithence t' is manifest that if they should not doe so they would not only betraye their owne principles but also denye their breetheren that fraternall rebuke and admonition which the law of God and good neighbourhood require's at the hands of men so persuaded as these grounds force and oblige vs to be Nephew Surely then this is the reason why the church now and then chasticeth such subiects as rebell in beliefe against hir which the Protestants so exclame at Vncle. T' is so in deede and being no other church can haue this principle against vs if at anie time they persecute vs for our faith and beliefe they must needes doe it more out of passion and reuenge then out of anie rationall loue and knowing zeale to God and Religion And now cozen I hope you conceiue the extreme necessitie and maine importance of these pointes which we haue talked of being such as that the church of God cannot subsiste without them and essentiall to Christ's coming to witt to establish some to haue the charge and care of teaching and gouerning his church And that these teachers and Gouernors haue great credit and authoritie euen supernaturall and more then human And that their iudgment in matters of beliefe and Religion is to stand good nor may be subiected to the weake and wauering iudgmēt of the laietie that is of men ignorant in the principles of their science and discipline And lastly that being thus vnited they haue the true and right rule of knowing Christ's law and those things which are to be belieued and practized All which you see are of that nature that the verie essence of a Christian church and communitie cannot subsiste and continue without anie of them all And without such a church the Generalitie of mankinde cannot be maintained in charitie nor without charitie arriue to eternall Happinesse for which both charitie and all these other pointes are absolutly necessarie This hath beene the chaine of our discourse hitherto if you haue well vnderstood and conceiued my intention Which likewise you see I haue done by the light of common sense and reason according to my promis And sithence you would haue me to goe this waye and nether flye vp to sublime metaphysickes nor drowne your memorie with tedious allegations of authors we will still continue in the same path insisting in the principles of nature and shewing that diuers pointes of our faith and practise which the Protestants deney are euen by their conformitie to naturall reason it self ād by their owne proper force and efficacitie of causing and producing good and vertuous effects in a Christian cōmunitie and thereby contributing to saluation are I saie of no smale consequence and importance First therefore tell me whether you thinke there be anie other necessitie in respect of the pointes controuerted betwixt vs and the Protestants then this absolute and maine one which we haue alreadie talked of I meane whether there be not an other necessitie which though not altogether so great in it self and of it's owne nature yet such an one as is sufficient to make a pointe of importance and of such importance as that to reiecte it would be a lawfull and iust cause to refuse and denye communion to the refractarie and obstinate opposers thereof And lett vs put the question thus §. 8 Whether some pointes may not be of necessitie in a lower degree as in particular the vse of pictures or Images NEphew I told you before how I thought necessitie might be distinguished into an absolute necessitie and into a necessitie of a meanes for abtaining the thing we desire with greater ease and cōueniencie and you liked well of it But me thinke's it were a hard case to depriue anie man of that meanes and qualitie without which he cannot absolutly attaine to his end that others may come to their ends with greater ease and securitie And therefore I should thinke that no other necessitie but an absolute one were sufficient to deserue excommunication which I take to be a depriuing of a partie from that without which he cannot obtaine eternall Blisse Vncle. Why cozen lett vs suppose that in a communitie of one hundreth thousand nyntie thousand would neuer attaine to Blisse though absolutly they could vnlesse the waye were made easie doe you thinke it were fitt or tollerable in anie one or in a douzen to take awaie the meanes whereby the waye were facilitated to the rest Nay suppose ten thousand of the hundreth thousand would arriue to happinesse with great paines and labours were it not better in the Gouernor's eye who ought to be a common father to them all to lett the thenth part perish then all the other nine Nephew I confesse I see myne ouersight for truly the church is bound in such a case to proceede with rigor And the partie which will not condescende to helpe the frailtie of their breetheren doth by this very fact deserue to loose the protection of charitie which it willfully abandon's And in effect such a partie hath alreadie putt it selfe out of the secret communitie of God's church and the Gouernor is only to performe it in externall apparence Vncle. Add to this cozen that such a partie doth willfully stand out in this manner vpon pride and faction to iustifie their opinion And that they trench vpon the Gouermēt ordained by Iesus Christ them selues not being caled therevnto proudly setting themselues in the seate of iudgment to
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
in iudging white froÌ„ blacke because for sooth some weake eyes are now aÌ„d theÌ„ mistaken or as to saie no bodie can walke because some haue the palsey which were in deede to destroye nature and it's constancie in vniuersalls because of it's defectibilitie in it's particulars which is against common sense and reason Vncle. Well then doe you thinke their immediate forefathers could teach theÌ„ anie thing as of this qualitie but what themselues belieued and had receiued in the same manner Nephew No surely their immediate forefathers could not deliuer anie thing as of this nature to their successors against the doctrine which they had receiued from their predecessours euer standing in this principle that nothing is to be belieued as of necessitie in this degree but what came by hand to hand froÌ„ Christ or his Apostles Vncle. Tell me then I pray whether in the two last pointes that is whether ether we can be deceiued in what was deliuered by our immediate forefathers vnto vs as of this kinde or they deliuer vs anie doctrine as of this qualitie but what them selues receiued in the like sort whether I saie in ether of these two points there be anie differeÌ„ce betwixt anie former age and this our presentage or that what you haue granted of this age the same must not necessarily hold in all other ages euer since Christ Nephew I confesse I see noe difference Vncle. Reflect then vpon what you haue granted and considere whether anie error against a receiued doctrine aÌ„d practize of this nature could so creepe in as that there shoud be no determinate age of it's beginning in which it first tooke roote and flourished Nephew T' is not possible that anie thing should beginne and yet beginne in no time For I conceiue that an age is no smale time aÌ„d giue 's no litle growth to anie thing that beginne's so that to saie anie point of doctrine is a whole age in growing aÌ„d to saie with all it is imperceptible and after a whole age vnsensible is without doubt senslesse Yet if anie should saie that an error had beene begun by a priuate man and taught to some in one age which being neglected grew into practize in some one countrie and froÌ„ theÌ„ce by the like neglect grew likewise to be customarie in the next adioyning and so spredd it self vntill it had possessed the hart of Christendome and this for manie yeares so that now all memorie that euer the contrarie had beene in credit and practize were lost if this I saie one should tell me I doubt whether I should be able to giue him a conuincing answere and demonstratiue satisfaction Vncle. Cosen this question trencheth vpon what we haue alreadie talked of therefore I will only giue you such a hint as your self may worke vpon First it is as manifest an impossibilitie that a change of Religion should be introduced insensibly into anie one Countrie as that a burning feauer should for as long time consume the same whole couÌ„trie without being taken notice of or sought to be preuented sithence as we saide nature permit's vs not generally to be sleepie in Religion Secondly to saie it shall passe imperceptible from country to countrie and so get possession of the whole Christian world is farr more impossible men's natures and dispositioÌ„s being so diuers that if they were put to we are cappes or shoes a like it could not be effected but by some publicke force or commande Thirdly that this should be for so long a terme that the coÌ„trarie practize should be quit forgotteÌ„ to haue beene formerly in vse and request is yet beyoÌ„d both So that who soeuer is troubled with this doubt doth not rightly vnderstand the nature of Christian Religion which is a truth of the qualitie of science hanging all together Wherevnto a truth may be added and yet remaine whole but if anie falsitie or crosse position be admitted it will not only destroy the positioÌ„ immediatly opposite but also what soeuer dependeth of it that is all in deede but cheefely tradition And so we see by experience that none euer moued anie point of faith but if their reuolt dured loÌ„g they proceeded so farr as to take a waie tradition the rule of all we are to belieue But can you tell me haue we reached to the resolution of your demande aÌ„d are you fully satisfied Nephew This you haue concluded that if our church rely vpon traditioÌ„ now it euer did so And if it euer did rely vpon tradition it must needes haue maintained the same doctrine from Christ's time to ours for nether could anie former age deliuer anie thing contrarie to what they had receiued vpon this principle nor we mistake what they deliuered so that nothing contrarie to the first receiued doctrine can be admitted This yet me thinke's waÌ„teth To shew that the present Roman church rely's vpon tradition which I confesse to me is euident at least that what soeuer we haue receiued froÌ„ our forefathers as comming by-hand to hand from Christ that we reuerence and receiue all such pointes as being necessarie to be belieued Only I haue one scruple wherein I must craue your helpe And it is Whether this rule of traditioÌ„ which you giue to be so constantly held to be the rule of faith whether I saie it be so admitted of by all Catholikes or no for I feare the varietie of contrarie opinions which I heare are amoÌ„gst our learned men will preiudice your argumeÌ„s Wherefore I could wish you woud shew me §. 9 That the dissention of Catholike Doctor concerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of Tradition FOr I am tould how true I know not that some of our Deuines mantaine that in the person of the Pope reside's the rule of faith by a singular guift and priuiledge bestowed vpon S. Peeter and his successors And this so rigorously that no Generall Councell no not although the Pope's Legats be present and confirme it is of force to oblige â—â— of faiht vntill the personall confirmation of his Holinesse be obtained Others they saie esteeme the Councell aboue the Pope and so doe not hold the Pope's approbation of a Councell to be necessarie but that this rule of faith reside's in the Councell Others I heare to make all safe ioyne both in one and nether admit the Councell without the Pope not the Pope without the Councell to breede anie obligation of faith And farther I heare that amongst these Deuines of what opinion soeuer they be touching the subiect in which this rule or highest authoritie doth reside there be some which thinke that not anie new doctrine or position can be broached or proposed as certaine and as an article of faith by what authoritie soeuer vnlesse that doctrine was esteemed certaine before and euer belieued as such Yet I am tould there be manie who mantaine and â—ouch that this highest authoritie of the church wheresoeuer it be may and can define points of doctrine not
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
haue the same effect yea nature it self and it's Author would be ouercome if such long violence could so oppresse it as to extinguish it It being nature's cheefe flower and greatest treasure planted by the expresse handy worke of the omnipotent and wise framer thereof Nephew Your discourse seemee's good for I see that meÌ„ who in a case of great importance will not be content with what is proportionall to their capacitie but seeke a certitude so great as them selues are not capable to iudge of being not beaten to thoses sciences in which such certaintie is vsuall those men I saie must needes come short of what they desire if truly they doe desire it for I belieue the affectioÌ„ of wealth pleasure or some fore-made iudgment doth carie them against the simple and plaine directioÌ„ of free reason How soeuer vncle seeing it was so easie for the church to haue beene conserued entire in faith me thinke's it should not be hard to shew in effect and in particular from age to age that it hath beene conserued Vncle. If we could proue that Bishops ether in Generall or Nationall Councells had once in two or three hundreth yeares taken care that no corruptioÌ„s should be introduced this might be effected but that depende's vpon bookes 〈◊〉 and historie which you and wil not now medle withall Nephew I belieue those histories are not so doubtfull but that generally Protestants doe aÌ„d will acknowledge theÌ„ And by my pore skill I know that there neuer passed 300. yeares since Christ's time without a Councell and without condemning some hereticke so that t' is cleere the church hath had sufficieÌ„t care in this kinde Yet because I haue heard your self complaine of the slouth of men who seeke not into the grounds of scieÌ„ces and often saie that fair more theÌ„ is might be knowne if the principles were rightly laide for it and the waie trodden nay that all God's workes hang so together by connection of causes and effects as that there 's no effect whose cause by diligence might not be found I must therefore intreate you to condescende a litle euen to the hardnesse of those men's harts who require more in this subiect then in anie other and seeke the cause why the church and faith of Christ cannot faille For sitheÌ„ce we haue found by experieÌ„ce these 1600. yeares that it hath not so failed as that it hath not euer beene generally and vniuersally visible and hath both dured and florished thus long surely it hath some forcible cause and in deede such an one as can neuer faile but will still worke the same effect And this were to shew That noe great errour could creepe into the church of God VNcle Cosen you laie toâ—â— what aske vpon me Who knowe's why the world hath dured thus long Or why mankinde was not extinct manie yeares agoe And must I tell you why God's church hath not nor cannot faile I am ashamed to answere euerie licentious braine the negatiues of a wittie naturalist may pose the most learned Christian vpon earth Yet to content you I will endeauour aboue my strength but you must ease me a litle and answere me to what your self see 's euident First you know that the church being the Congregation of the faithfull cannot faile but by the losse of faith How faith is lost And faith may be lost two waies by ignorance or by errour For so we see a particular man who once had faith if he come to loose it t' is ether by negligence and not conning it and so forgette's it or else 〈◊〉 disswaded from it and induced to belieue some differrent doctrine So likewise to a multitude of men the one or the other must needes happeÌ„ or else they cannot be depriued of the faith which they once had And because pure ignorance is a meere negatiue or not knowing the first question I will aske you is Whether you thinke a people once instructed in anie Religion can so forget it as that they fall not into some other Religion â—â— but liue quite without anie Religion at all Nephew Truly I thinke it impossible both because I neuer heard of anie nation that had no Religion at all no not the Caniballs as also because I haue heard that absurde Religions haue continued from father to sonne for manie generations together and neuer left vntill an other Religion was brought in and then too with much adoe the people being loth to be drawne from their former beliefe Yet if one should confidently saie the contrarie why all people haue some Religion I doe not know how to conuince him Vncle. You must looke into the causes which make men Religious aÌ„d if you finde theÌ„ to be vniuersall and perpetuall you may be sure that all sortes of Peoples haue some Religion in theÌ„ though more or lesse according as these causes are more or lesse in force amongst them But lett vs knowe can you tell me what is Religion in generall as it is commone to both true and false Nephew I imagine Religion to be a conceite or persuasion of the people concerning one or more what is ReligioÌ„ in generall excellent natures which gouerne humane life giuing vs those goods which of our selues we cannot attaine vnto aÌ„d inflicting vpoÌ„ vs those paines whereof we doe not knowe the causes And this persuasion reacheth also to the manner and forme of pleasing this or these Gouernors and commanders Whereby to obtaine goods and eschew euills And the reason why I make this conceite of Religion is because I see these things are in all sorts of Religion and all authours which write of the Religion of what nation soeuer touch cheefely these pointes Vncle. Your remarque is good Which be the causes of ReligioÌ„ and Why it cannot perish and if you looke into your definition you shall finde the causes of Religion You saie Religion is a conceite of the Gouernors of man's life in giftes and punishments whose causes we doe not knowe Then you see Religion must needes be a faith for when we doe not know things we cannot make anie conceite of theÌ„ but by belieuing and trusting others whom we thinke know the things that we know not and therefore Religion in generall is taken vpon trust Farther you saie that ReligioÌ„ is a methode of pleasing those Gouernors whereby to get goods and eschewe euills so that the desire of goods and the feare of euills are the authors and causes of Religion we haue then hopes and feares for the will ignorance and a conceite of an other man's knowledge for the vnderstanding which be the parents of Religion Now thinke you cosen can these causes be defectiue and fayling in anie age Nephew Surely they cannot For it were no generation of men but beasts that were so doÌ„ltish and sottish as to see so manie goods and harmes which happen to all men wee know not whence and thinke that there were no cause thereof And therefore it is the
present church as before they did Nephew Nay if you goe that waie to worke I feare you will fall short of your intent For the child belieue's father and mother the parishoner his Pastor without reflection of the present church T' is like therefore these Deuines rely vpoÌ„ the motiues which they mantaine what soeuer they did when they were yong Vncle. Not so nether for as the water of the new riuer which is brought to London come's to a particular house by a smale pipe yet t' is continuate to the whole bodie of the riuer so the instruction of faith though it come to a child by his parents and to a parishoner by his Pastor yet the dependence of the doctrine is from the whole church whose members and instruments these parents and Pastors are if they be in the church to which you know I tould you what is required And t' is the like when parents teach their children what is to be done or auoided according to the lawes of the couÌ„try for though the father speake yet t' is the common wealth which preuaileth and bindeth Nephew At least me thinke's vncle such great Doctors should not be ignorant of a point agreed vpon by the whole church and therefore since they disagree about the motiue of faith I doe not see how you can saie t' is generally agreed on in the Catholike church Vncle. Had this agreemeÌ„t beene made in a Generall Councell or in some vniuersall meeting of faithfull ChristiaÌ„s and so recorded I doubt not but these learned Clarkes would haue knowne it but it was not so agreed on Yet as by the vniuersall blessing of crescite multiplicamini Gen. 1. all men and beasts agreed vpon feeding and filling the world euerie one in his kinde by the directioÌ„ of their maker knocking at their stomackes when they were hungrie and at their pharisie when they were full to set on worke those instruments by which the se coÌ„mands of Almightie God were to be fullfilled Marc 16 Euen so by the like blessing of Euntes in mundam vniuersum praedicate omni creaturae the Apostles being dispersed into all natioÌ„s by the vertue of doeing miracles found credulitie or rather forced faith out of the flintie harts of the corrupted world and hauing setled Christs doctrine dying left in their successors soules and mindes this agreement To belieue what was deliuered from them and to trust those who had heard them speake and afterwards to trust those who had heard it from them who had their instruction from the Apostles and lastly to trust the publike consent which affirmed that they held their faith by entaile from them though manie ages after This agreement being written in harts and not in bookes t' is easie for learned men who seeke their learning in bookes and not in harts to mistake As in Philosophie whilest great Clarkes seeke nature not in it self but in other men's sayings they are deuided and few in the right the truth being but one Nephew You haue beene as good as you word For I see it importe's not that our Deuines be of different opinions in this point so that in their liues and practize they agree And truly I neuer heard of anie Catholike that ether doubted but that Christian doctrine was descended by Tradition or thought that what was so descended could be false nay I thinke euerie moderate and wise Protestant will make no question of that which he conceiues to haue descended from the Apostles by succession For Catholikes wee all rely vpon the censure of the present church nor can or â—are anie man appeale froÌ„ it and call him self a Catholike for we all account them infidels and publicans who are refractorie to this tenet Wherfore t' is euident that what soeuer the church speake's and deliuer's for Tradition is agreed vpon by all Catholikes to be certaine and vnrefusable and sithence all other motiues or rules of faith are not vniuersally receiued t' is euident likewise that this is the rule which can oblige vs to certaintiem matters of beliefe But I haue an other great difficultie to wit that I see our Catechists and preachers wheÌ„ they teach vs Christian doctrine tell vs this you are to belieue this you are to practize without expressing the differences which are betwixt the points of doctrine whereof perhapps some are but only the answeres of learned men some definitioÌ„s of the church and some matters of traditioÌ„ And the like I belieue of former ages Christian doctrine descending vnto vs in a heape or confusion and therefore t is hard to distinguish what is of Tradition what the generall consent of the church and what only learned men's opinions Why then may not some position of this last rancke passe for a tradition by the adoption of some ages in which it will be forgotten that euer it had it's beginning froÌ„ the wit and industrie of priuate men And to satisfie me in this point you must let me see how that The teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what is of necessitie to be belieued what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition VNcle If I should answere you that former ages haue beene more exact in distinguishing things certaine from vncertaine it would not be without ground as you may see by the framing of antient creedes aÌ„d other professions of faith as occasions required but this were to send you to antiquitie whereas in this discourse you know we both desire that common sense and reason without farther enquiry should be our iudge Wherefore the point you speake of which you feare might deceiue vs by the likenesse of tradition is ether true or false if true then I pray what incoÌ„uenience is there if it surprise vs in the qualitie of it's certaintie Nephew This I feare and thinke that it would breake the rule and certaintie of Tradition Where vpon relye's the whole building and frame of our faith according to your discourse For if once truth not deliuered by traditioÌ„ may passe for so deliuered what securitie can we haue that a falsitie may not likewise passe in the same maÌ„ner and so bring an errour amongst vs Vncle. I put you only that part of the question if the point were true which you draw into the contrarie if it were false wherefore if it doe not follow that an vntruth can deceiue vs in that kinde then there is no incoÌ„uenieÌ„ce in the consequeÌ„ce of the former part to wit that truth may be taken as deliuered by traditioÌ„ which truly is not so deliuered And the reason is cleare for seeing the truths of ReligioÌ„ are knowne for the framing of our liues conformably vnto them it importe's litle in respect of vertue vpon what grounds they are held in particular so they be vniuersally and coÌ„stantly held for an action done in consequence of such belieued truths is neuer the worse for the qualitie of the certaintie of it's obiect Yet for your farther satisfaction this I will adde
shyne day to fit on And one should tell you that in the next sessions following they would decree it had beene a verie fowle day aÌ„d would commande vnder paine of death euerie man to belieue and professe foe Which though I thinke you will saie it were impossible they should make anie such decree yet would I know how you would goe about to proue it Would your not considere what force of feares of hopes were necessarie to induce one of these men to tell such a notorious lye whereby he were to hazard his conscience and reputation for euer and then increase and augment the difficultie by the multitude And farther would you not vrge that there were no such hopes or feares as were able to quell anie one or at least a were necessarie to ouerswaye them all considering that the same hopes or feares could not falle vpon such varietie of estates and humours as all these men were of And knowing certainely anie of these three you would assuredly pronunce the supposed assertion to be false For saie you such a force is necessarie to breake reason in this Congregation but such a force at this present cannot be had and therefore reason at this present cannot be broken in them In which discourse a Mathematician will tell you his demonstrations hang vpoÌ„ the verie same gimalls Wherefore as men cannot ordinarily demonstrate that one bodie cannot bee in two places nor two in one yet are we certaine there is a naturall demoÌ„stration for it and we are by nature assured of it So no doubt but there is a demonstration to him that liueth in London that there is a LondoÌ„ bridge and he is naturally certaine of it though he cannot frame the demonstration by articles and sylogismes as a true philosopher can doe for surely a philosopher if he will take paines may finde a demonstration for both Nephew I hartily thaÌ„ke you for this discourse both for the present subiect wherein you haue contented me beyond my expection as also because me thinke's I conceiue by it that there may be certaine knowledge not only in mathematikes but in all other sciences sithence there is so cleere and efficacious meanes of proceeding euen in morall matters which seeme the most mutable aÌ„d vncertaine of all and where I thought scarcely anie reason was to be expected Vncle. O! coseÌ„ though he was a great man that said Ars longa vita breuis yet he must giue me leaue to be his interpreter for t' is not the length of art but our not taking the right waie which make's it long otherwise art would be but a conuenient solace to our liues Would you thinke that a priuat man following the warres without helpe of others writings by his owne industrie should surpasse the greatest clarkes that haue pored double his time vpon bookes and Monsieur des Cartes this our age hath shewed in a french gentleman yet not only liuing but yong Nephew Me thinke's vncle it were a good worke and necessarie for the Christian world if your self or some other would take the paines to set downe the principles of our faith in forme of demonstration For that I conceiue would take awaie all controuersies and make all ChristiaÌ„s of one beliefe and Religion Vncle. You are a yong maÌ„ and conceiue's not the daiâ—tinesse of the pallates of this age they would not taste such rugged and bitter stuffe nay they caÌ„not disgest anie thing which is not sugered with quaint and pleasont iests Who would reade such a worke Who would haue the patience to studie it to comprehend it and make it his owne This verie discourse which hath passed betwixt you and me is so thornie and full of so manie chained consequences that were it publike few would carrie it away Let vs therefore coÌ„tent our selues to make it knowne to our owne acquaintance to whom vpon occasioÌ„ you may deliuer it by the waie of familiar discourse wherein peraduenture it will sauour better and profit more Nephew I pray leaue me not thus giue me at least some speciall light to answere such obiections as without doubt will be proposed when I shall deliuer your discourse to those who are better red then my self Wherefore least I should disgrace your learned lessons I pray tell me how §. 13 Some cheefe and short obiections may be solued VNcle I can not giue you a better rule theÌ„ to sticke to the churche's authoritie for Tradition and not to be easily beaten of by great names and words for if you considere that a Tradition or a point of faith deliuered by tradition is a point vniuersally preached and deliuered by the Apostles and imprinted in the harts of the Christian world And by an vniuersall beliefe and practise continued vnto our days whereof our warrant is no other then that we finde the present church in quiet possession of it and whereof no begining is knowne if this I saie you considere and sticke well to this appreheÌ„sioÌ„ you neede not feare anie obiection which can be made against you For you rely vpon the testimonie of the whole ChristiaÌ„ church you rely vpon the force of nature borne to continue froÌ„ father to child you rely vpon the promises of Iesus Christ of continuing his church vnto the end of the world And vpon the efficacitie of the Holy Ghost sent to performe it by whom Christ's law was written in Christians harts and so to be continued to the day of doome So that you see no human authoritie by which our Estates and liues are gouerned No proofes of courts or law which neuerthelesse are admitted as Iuges of those affaires which too manie God knowe's esteeme more weightie and important then Religion No consent of historie And in fine if what we haue said be true no demonstration better nor greater nor peraduenture equall On the other side you shall finde all obiectioÌ„s fall of their owne weaknesse As some doe obiect the Millenarie errour for a tradition whereof there is no certaintie nor consent of those who write of it whether it haue beene publickly preached by the Apostles or no And euen thence it is excluded from the nature of such tradition as we rely vpon Others finding diuers fathers agreeing in one opinion vrge them presently for or against tradition As if fathers in their dayes were not priuat Doctors and might not be mistaken in some points as well as the Doctors of the present church T' is true we reuerence the fathers in manie titles aboue anie liuing Doctors yet euerie Catholike knowe's that diuers fathers haue some times light into the same error Wherefore you must note cosen that the fathers speake some times as witneses of what the church held in their days and some times as Doctors and so t' is often hard to distinguish how they deliuer their opinions because some times they presse scripture or raison as Doctors and some times to confirme a knowne truth So that who seeke's Tradition in the fathers and
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's
working and that violence must carrie it Vncle. Did you neuer take notice of your selfe how that if you harken to a discourse of anie thing which you vehemeÌ„tly desire to know how attentiue you are how fearefull that anie word should slippe vnheard or not vnderstood how quiet you keepe all your thoughts how still and vntroubleâ— your phansie that what you heare may sinke downe into your soule as distinctly and in the same frame and order as it floweth from the speaker So you see that the loue or desire to know anie thing is the most efficacious disposition we can haue to attaine to the knowledge thereof Now you know that this life and conuersation of the soule in hir bodie is giuen hir to prepare and dispose hir selfe for the next life Is it not therefore euident that that soule which most desire 's to see and know God that is which most loueth God in this life and particularly in the time of hir departure out of this world goe's out of hir bodie with the best and perfectest preparation and disposition to see and know God in the life to come which is our expected and eternall happinesse Nor is this against what you haue beene taught for loue is the most actiue and consequently the most violent thing in the world and therefore if heaueÌ„ must be obtained by violeÌ„ce loue certainely must be the waye Wherefore you see we are to considere the necessitie of controuerted pointes of Religion in as much as of their owne nature and of theÌ„ selues they doe cause and make professours of christianitie to loue God and desire to see him For sitheÌ„ce this loue and desire is the meanes and waye to heauen it must needes follow that according as anie pointe or position doth produce or contribute to this effect in the soules of Christians the necessitie of such a pointe must bee of the same degree There is a necessitie of belieuing all points of faith in generall out of an other principle to witt in that the church proposeth them vnto vs as such which we must accept and belieue in all or none being the same reason and motiue in all but this I shall take occasion an other time to shew vnto you You will saie peradueÌ„ture if this be so what neede 's the knowledge of Christian doctrine can there be imagined a greatter motiue of loue then that God is and that he is goodnesse it selfe Is not this alone a sufficieÌ„t motiue to make all creatures melt into the loue of him And this suerly may be knowne by pure naturall reasoÌ„ Why theÌ„ is the knowledge of pointes disputed betwixt the Protestants and vs to be held necessarie Nay to what end must we needes know anie part of Christ's law for the attaining of Blisse since loue will doe it and the most efficacious motiue of loue is to be had with out it Nephew You haue posed me now for truly I see that goodneesse is able to rauish all the harts in the world and this is so cleere and common that it neede 's no proofe Wherefore me thinke's if meÌ„ would considere and follow this motiue of God's infinite goodnesse they would not want loue and not wanting loue according to your discourse thâ—y must of necessitie attaine to euerlasting Blisse and Happinesse Why therefore anie other knowledge should be absolutly necessarie I see not much lesse doe I coÌ„ceiue wherefore we should thinke §. 3 That the pointes wherein the Arrians and other Antient Heretikes differed from Catholikes are pointes of necessitie to be knowne and belieued VNCLE What thinke you cozen if the motiue of loue which we speake of were such why God's goodnesse as knowable by nature is not a sufficieÌ„t motiue of loue to all mankinde as that few men and great clarkes only were able to reach and conceiue it not consequently be moued and affected with it Doe you thinke some other motiue more easie more generall and more common were not necessarie whereby the people and ordinarie sort of men might be moued and affected Or doe you thinke that mankinde could be said to haue sufficient meanes to attaine to Blisse and Happinesse if it had only such an one as that verie few could make vse of And that you may the better conceiue my question putt the case that on the one side there were such a meanes as that verie few could reach vnto it on the other side such an one as were accommodated to the capacitie of euerie man doe you not see that to saie mankynde may be saued by this or that meanes hath a quite different sense Mankynde in the one signifying the whole multitude in the other a smale or as it were no part of the multitude For that part of anie thing which is so litle as that it beareth no morall proportion to the whole is in our manner of speaking accounted as none Doe you not then see that it is necessarie that the meanes of our saluation be of this more generall and common nature Nephew I doubt it not and myne owne interest make 's me more inclined therevnto being God knowe's I am of the weaker sort And when I consid ere the good of saluation and the harme and miserie which followeth the losse of it and that we all acknowledge euerie maÌ„ to be capable thereof t' is euident that the meanes of attaining such an infinite good wherevnto we are all ordained ought to reach and lye within the power of all or at least of the most part of men But yet I see not why the infinite goodnesse of God is not a motiue sufficiently generall and common to moue and affect all the world Vncle. Why cozen Three degrees of tending to anie good you must considere that there be as it were three stepps or degrees by which we goe or tende to anie good The first to apprehende or vnderstand what it is The second to conceite and esteeme it And the third to desire and poursue it And in the prosecution thereof to preferre it before all other goods which deserue not so well and in our case to preferre it before all other goods whatsoeuer as being the greattest of all These three degrees be so disposed as that the last cannot stand nor be putt without the second nor the second without the first though contrarie wise the first may be without the second and the second without the third by reason of man's weaknesse HoW hard it is to conceiue God's goodnesse or anie spirituall thing Now if you considere that God Allmightie and his goodnesse is the most simple sublime and abstract thing that caÌ„ possibly be imagined And reflect but vpon the nature of Angells or of a soule nay eueÌ„ of a corporall substance seperated from all his sensible accidents and if you had the experience that I haue you would saie it were hard euen for the best witts to appreheÌ„de rightly and discourse consequently of these things And shall we not
populus sic Sacerdos But this me thinke's should not touch vpon anie necessarie pointe of faith seeing it depende's on their particular liues and imployments which are knowne by sense and experience and not by anie tradition from our forefathers Vncle. You are mistaken cozen for although t' is true that the clergie's euill liues may disgrace the motiues of reuerence bestowed vpon theÌ„ by Christ Iesus yet if their liues be but tollerable Christ may haue giuen them such eminent power and dignitie as that they will not want that reuerence and respect which is fitt and conformable to the function and profession wherevnto he hath caled them And certes not with out necessities if we considere the credulitie and obedience which are required at the people's hands Credulitie of things beyond and aboue nature nay beyond all the fables be it spoken with respect that euer man inuented ObedieÌ„ce of hazarding liues and fortunes nay of entirely ruining them selues and their posteritie in respect of this world in such cases as these instructors shall tell them that the law of God commande's it and require's it Wherefore as Kings and Magistrates finde by experience that Pompes and Ceremonies and the reseruing of certaine actions and creations to them selues doe breede in their subiects yea and in strangers too honour and respect and therefore are verie carefull how they imparte and communicate them still keeping to them selues alone some Regall priuileges and prerogatiues So likewise Christ Iesus not vnmindefull of his Ministers left them and to them only the churche's Pompes and solemnities but specially the Sacraments to giue them credit and authoritie thereby To Bishops the giuing of the Holy Ghost or Confirmation Which is a continuance of the Mission of the third person of the holy Trinitie in the first Christian Pentecoste and therefore who slight's Confirmation slight's that MissioÌ„ and the coÌ„secrating of Priests Why Priests are to be honnored To Priests the rest of the Sacraments except Baptisme which by reason of the people's necessitie could not conuenieÌ„tly be reserued to Priests only whereof there were to be but few But cheefely he gaue them charge of the Bloudilesse sacrifice of his owne bodie and the power of remitting sinnes whereon is prinpally grounded and subsiste's the reuerence due vnto the church of God The one being a priuilege beyond man's inueÌ„tion and such an one as if all the learned clarkes that euer liued since the begining of the world should haue studied to raise aduance and magnifie some one istate of men to the highest ptch of Reuerence and Eminencie that could be imagined they could neuer without speciall light froÌ„ heauë haue thouht of anie thing comparable to this And yet so adapted to the secrets of nature that who should diue in to hir mysteries would streight at the first proposing of it acknowledge it to be true because a thing so hidden in the depth of nature's bowels could not be inuented and applyed in this manner by anie but the Maister of nature it self The other being so mightie a power ouer man's nature and so extremely vsefull to mankinde for their helpe and directioÌ„ to eternall Blisse that nether in respect of the awe which it strike's in to their subiects nor in respect of the profit which being conuenienieÌ„tly vsed resulteth from it there is nothing in this world anie waye estimable in comparison thereof What thinke you then cozen who seeketh to take awaye the reall presence of Christ's bodie in the B Sacrament and the power of Absoluing sinnes doth he quarell vpon trifles Be not these pointes which we hold as true and as certaine and vpon the same groundes as we doe the Trinitie and Incarnation of maine consequence and importaÌ„ce And doth not he shake the fundameÌ„tal Basis and cheefe cornerstone of the churche's building who take's awaye this power and authoritie froÌ„ hir iudges and ministers whereby they were so reuerenced and honnored as that they were belieued and obeyed And finally be these questioÌ„s to be left indifferent to euerie idle braine and priuate phansie to thinke and practize what he please's Nephew I must needes confesse I neuer considered thus much before for truly I see that the Administration of the Sacraments are necessarie for this end thoe I haue heard the Sacraments are necessarie for manie other ends But now I easily conceiue that if the clergie be not of credit it cannot haue the effect which it was made and ordained for and if it hath not it's effect it causeth not the keeping of Christ's law and if Christ's law be not kept there is no saluation So that t' is euident the Clergie needeth the greattest proppes and meanes of credit and reuerence that can be had And surely what common wealth soeuer highly esteeme's of God's law and Christian doctrine would wish the Clergie these verie qualities if they had them not allreadie Wherefore I wonder not that the Puritants who mainely oppose Ecclesiasticall Hierarchie doe fo hate and deteste the doctrine of the B. Sacrament because they thinke all Poperie is built vpoÌ„ that great sacrifice And I remember when I was in France I perceiued that going to Masse was hâ—ld the cheefe distinctiue signe and action betwixt a Catholike and a Caluinist So that considering these supernaturall and neuer sufficieÌ„tly honnored qualities of Priests I cesily belieue the storie which is tould of S. Francis that he said if he should meete a Priest and an Angell he would first salute the Biest Vncle. You saie well and surely were all Priest's liues such as did not partly disgrace theses guiftes bestowed vpon them I doubt not but Kings would laye their crownes and scepters at their feete and weare their swords at their deuotion which antiquitie telleth vs haith bene done and practized Yea those Tribunall's and that temporall power and iurisdictioÌ„ concerning which the clergie doth nowe perhaps too much contende with the laietie were at the first forced vpoÌ„ holy Bishops against their wills ether by particular men's pretie and agreement or by the Emperour's commands The world then thinking him vnworthie to liue that would not condemne him selfe if the Bishop iudged against him And both antiently in S. Hugh of Lincolne and lately in S. Charles of Milan the Christian world hath seene how great a power the Reuerence of a Bishop hath euen in respect of Kings when his life corresponde's and seconde's his Dignitie Nephew But I pray vncle doe you thinke that the greatest necessitie 〈◊〉 the Sacraments doth consist in this that by the reseruation of their administration to the clergie the clergie's authoritie might be more exalted and fitter to serue the church I haue heard other reasons preferred before this and therefore me thinke's you should more insist vpon that necessitie which in it self is the greatest and most forcible then vpon a lesser Vncle. Why cozen I doe not intende to alledge all the reasons wherefore the SacrameÌ„ts are necessarie but only some forcible one whereby it may
Reuerencing their reliques and pictures 3. In hoping good of them by praying vnto them For we naturally thinke the greatest goods to be in those who deserue honour and can-doe good to others and therefore we neuer make anie great conceite of those things whence we can nether expect anie good nor wherevnto we thinke no honour due Nephew I cannot but interrupt your discourse with admiration to see how men who suerly had not cast awaie all thoughts of vertue sithence they had so manie followers and were in so great esteeme should vnder slight pretences so weaken the maine strings by which pore men were drawne to heauen and that for a litle vanitie and desire to appeare more learned then others How true is it vncle that man hath no foe but him self For not all the Tortures and Tyranies not all the inundations of waters and rauagings of fires that can be immagined could euer haue donne so much harme to man kinde as the verie taking awaie of the esteeme and conceite which we Catholikes haue of the excellencie and greatnesse of Saincts and of the happy estate which they enioye and which is the end we all ayme at Vncle. Oh! cozen if Alexander Cesar or anie of your great glorie hunters had considered in their life time what now peraduenture to their great greefe they cannot be ignorant of the difference that there is euen in this worldly and vaine glorie betwixt Peeter the fisherman or Paul the tentmaker who neuer aymed at this honour but thought it worse then the dust which they shaked from their shooes and them selues who poursued it so keenely with perpetuall dāger of their liues wasting their estates and Coūtries and ruining their neighbours if this I saie they had then knowne would they not haue changed their mindes and followed other courses And doe they not now mauger them selues and teare their verie soules in pieces to see their owne follie and their no lesse witlesse then gracelesse ambition And doe you not then thinke that the holy church vseth in this a most efficacious meanes to bring men to a vertuous life being she doth by this doctrine of honoring and praying to Saincts so strongly commende vnto vs the glorie and Blisse after which we ought to thirst and hope if we be true Christians Nephew For the two first points I confesse you haue reason but for the third I feare you will not come so well of For the easier it is to obtaine anie good the more wee esteeme it ours and consequently the more hart we haue to goe about it And what waie can be thought more easie then to make a cōceite of Christ's goodnesse and thinke that without anie paines or deserts on our side he will giue vs that great reward according to his owne pleasure more or lesse purely and only out of his mercie and goodnesse whitout anie respect or regarde to our workes or liues in this world Whereas we Catholikes make the gates of heauen so narrow and the paths therevnto so rougged that we seeme rather to deterre then exhorte men to vertuous liues Vncle. If ether we or they could thinke to come to Blisse whithout good life I should not wōder at your propositiō for in that case it were the best and only course to haue a great confidēce in him whose guift it is But if Christ hath nether left anie such waie nor you or anie vnderstanding mā belieue that faith with a wicked and carelesse life will bring a mā to saluatiō Cā you thinke that such an exaggeration of faith and confidence and such a disesteeming of good workes can be a meanes to persuade and incite men to sticke closse and persiste in vertuous actions which by all our confessions are requisite and necessarie to saluation Surely the Catholike church taketh the securer waie And the reason is because workes in the waie of merite that is done for God's sake and with hope of heauen cannot be without faith but how easie it is for a man to persuade him selfe that he hath much faith without working we finde by dayly experience Hence it is that the Catholike church doth moue and persuade vs to labour for our eternall happinesse by proposing vnto v the examples of men The force of examples in man's life as we are who haue made this great conquest in the most exact and solemne act of canonization of Saincts And also of others who by professing of extraordinarie labours make it appeare that the waie is not so hard but that manie dayly treade the paths of it I meane in Religious professions in which all sortes of austerities are dayly practized before our eyes which ought not to be derided and scorned as manie doe For what power the examples and conuersatiō of good men haue euerie wise man know's And for examples we see that all the dangers of the sea and warrs that diuing into the bottome of the Ocean and deluing to the center of the earth hanging on ropes and scaffolds and what soeuer man hath inuented in this kinde doe not deterre men where there is ether profit or Admiration Let but one desperate beginner shew the waie and he will not want multitudes of followers so ether vanitie or gaine second his aduentures And if the force of Example be so great the losse of wanting it must needes be equiualent and consequently the wrong done to Christians by taking it awaie must be no lesse And therefore the question and cōtrouersie whether it should be maintened in the church or no is of no smale importance Nephew I perceiue well that you still continue according to your promis to shew the necessitie and importance of controuerted pointes of Religion by shewing their force and efficacitie of producing profitable and aduantageous effects for mankind's attaining and coming to eternall Blisse and I see that this is a verie connaturall and efficacious proofe But I feare all pointes of controuersies cannot be proued that waie For I pray how should anie man shew me §. 10 That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies or the opinion of miracles are necessarie VNcle You remember I proposed vnto you but now a diuision of some things which concerned the breeding others the conseruation of vertue and deuotion For although such things as augment vertue doe likewise of necessitie conserue it yet there may be some things which properly are to conserue it and not to augment it or at least of two things which doe both the one may conserue it because it breed's it the other may augment it because it cōserue's it Now therefore if we finde anie thing whose principall effect is only to hinder such contrarieties as would distroye pietie and deuotion such properly speaking doe not augment it of them selues but yet they may be truly said to conserue it Farther if you considere you shall finde that this hindering of cōtrarieties and opposites to vertue is performed two waies First by remouing all such
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying
pretende to Christ's law and doctrine yet vnlesse they be ioyned and vnited to that coÌ„munitie which hath this gouerment and the true rule to know and continue Christ's law they cannot generaly speaking be saued HoW some may be saued out of the church But you said one thing which truble's me to wit that some be saued euen without these conditions which is against our commoÌ„ saying that there 's no saluatioÌ„ out of the church of God and therefore you know we labour to gett people reconciled and vnited to the church euen in the hower of their death which would not be so needfull if saluation could be had out of the church Vncle. Why cozen doe you not saye that euerie man hath two leggs two eyes and the like though some particular men be destitute of both we saye men cannot liue without meate and yet some haue liued manie yeares without it We saie men cannot liue in the water and yet t' is writt that the Portugalls in their discoueries found a man whose habitation was in the sea and came only to land as Crocodiles and seacalfes doe So you see we putt vniuersall denominations vpon the common and generall and that without preiudice to lawfull exceptions of rareties or prodigies You know there 's no generall rule but hath an exception and Logicians saie ars non curat de accidentibus ac fortuitis Nephew But I pray you shew me why t' is a rare accident for a man to be saued out of the church For example if we looke into the teneâ—â— of our Protestants I see not why they may not be said to hold sufficient pointes of faith both to attaine to the loue of God which is the cheefe path of saluation but also to liue an ordinarie and competeÌ„t good life amongst their neighbours which is the compleatnesse of God's law Vncle. Were not man a ciuill and sociall animall that is to liue with others I should not denye but a Protestant might more ordinarily be saued For as you said well they hold as manie tenents with the Catholike church as be in some sorte sufficient for the directioÌ„ of a priuate maÌ„'s life But God hath coÌ„manded euerie maÌ„ to haue care of his neighbour at least so farr as not to hinder him from such things as be necessarie to his saluation And manie things being necessarie to a multitude which are not needefull to euerie particular and priuat person he that hindre's the multitude from such necessarie meanes and assistance can neuer be saued himself As if some Prouince or part of a commonwealth should start vp and refuse diuers antient lawes necessarie for the good and peaceable liuing of the whole multitude some priuate men perhapps of this prouiâ—ce might so liue and beâ—iâ—â—â— them selues as to correspond and complie with the end and intention of the whole common wealth in vertue of some such other laws and status 〈◊〉 might be generally admitted and commonly receiued by them all but sure it is that the multitude and communitie of this prouince would neuer reach to this perfection wanting as we suppose seuerall laws and institutioÌ„s necessarâ—â— for them in common and in generall Now that the Catholike's tenents which the Protestants refuse and contradict are of this nature to witt that they are necessarie for the multitude t' is euident As Gouerment of the whole church and those lawes and Canons which these Gouernors vniuersally assembled doe ennact and ordaine for the good of the totall multitude and in particular praying for the deade praying to Sancts The vse of pictures Sacraments Ceremonies and the like which Christ or his Apostle's or their successors instituted for the benefit of the vniuersal communitie and multitude Amongst whom there being diuers tasts one is pleased with one thing an other with something else Wherefore the Protestants in contradicting these pointes hinder the multitude of their saluatioÌ„ supposing these things be good and necessarily ordained as we Catholikes suppose and as I will shew yoâ— presently and therefore tâ— pronounce generally of thâ— Protestants that they cannoâ— be saued though we doe noâ— absolutly exclude euerie particular man who through ignorance may for anie thinâ— I know be excused from thâ— guilt of Protestancie Nephew I am hartily glaâ— to heare you saie that somâ— may be excused for I shaâ— haue better hopes of some oâ— my deceased friends then hitherto I haue had But sinâ—â— you are fallen into this diâ—course I pray lett me vnderstand why the Protestants ceâ—sure vs of being vncharitable when we saye they shalbâ— damned vnlesse they be excused by ignorance For sure they them selues must needes saie as much of vs sithence they accuse vs of Idolatrie and other hainous crimes and consequently they must be as vncharitable as we or else they will runne into a contradition Vncle. The mixture of Protestants and Puritants in one common wealth hath and must of necessitie draw manie into errour who cannot distinguish which be Protestants which be Puritants nor whether's doctrine it is that vrged For this verie blaming of our vncharitablenesse which I thinke is as old as Protestancie it selfe sheweth that the true Protestants haue euer beene of this opinion that the disputes betwixt Catholikes and them were but matters of indifferencie I remember when I was a boy there dyed a vertuous Catholike a Kinsman of myne and at the same time dyed a morall honest Protestant and the countrie said they were both gone to heauen but the one by Rome the other by Geneua and so the Papist hath the longer iourney And the imputation which the people generally laid vpon Catholikes was that they oppressed men with too great and vnnecessarie burdens and forced men to their opinions And this caÌ„not be otherwise according to the grounds of Protestants for we haue all that they haue and more and in particular we refuse nothing that can be proued by scripture which is the maine principle of Protestanisme being the only rule and fundation of their beliefe and we damne as well as they who soeuer will not belieue what is euideÌ„t in the scripture only we sticke to what our forefathers haue taught vs according to the principles of nature common sense and the examples of all the laws and common wealths of the world vntill the contrarie be cleered against vs. Wherefore ProtestaÌ„ts being strongly vrged must ether saie in their heate that Catholikes can giue no probable or apparent answere to those places of the scripture which they bring and alledge against them which must needes be ether an ignorant or a madd man's speach or else that such questions as are disputed betwixt them and vs are of indifferencie and not of necessitie Wherefore I belieue that those who saie that they ought and may censure vs as freely as we censure them smell of Puritanisme leauing the Protestants in the maine pointe Nether is this to answere but to acknowledge that want of charitie which true Protestants obiect against vs and so