to beleeue that a part is greater theÌ„ the whole The Authoritie of m England also before Caluin was borne beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse and offered it for the quick and the deade See the Prudentiall Ballance all NatioÌ„s Christian moues me more then the Authoritie of one n Other Protestants admit not your Confession onlie now deuided and apart Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie or that bread properlie was crucified for my sinnes I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene not wiser then the Church I reuerence her decrees and am readie to be directed by her Whether those you pretend vnto were so too will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale â—n which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself Of such Councels your fellowes haue questioned many things as first who hath power to call them secondlie what persoÌ„s are to be in them thirdlie who is to preside Fourthlie whether they be infallible in their decrees fiftlie which be such Councels The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these but onlie what learned men Catholikes haue deliuered taught about the infallibitie of a CouÌ„cell supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall which supposition being premised The four first your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall and it is confessedlie a possible supposition the Question is this Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie â—ecumenicall such as were generall â—nd approued that in decrees of Faith they might mistake and â—rre Wee dispute not you and 〈◊〉 now whether this or that Councell be such a Councell That is another matter Nor whether such a Councell supâ—ose it be and define be infalâ—ble But what men Cathoâ—ike Deuines haue auerred â—ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall entire and â—pproued The termes of the Question â—e remarkable Councels not whatsoeuer but generall and â—pproued or entirelie oecumeâ—icall Deuines of the Catholike â—ommunion not Hereticks Wee know that Hereticks reâ—use entire approued Councels Matters of Faith not matters â—f Fact Auouched openlie the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere Which if it were true that I note this by the way the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding continue firme The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre and negligence of discipline in a Superiour is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found and least of all by obscure passages Dark and hard speaches may be found in o Vide S. Hieron Apolog. adu Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur innocenter quaedam minus cautè loqunâ—i sunt quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare vide S. Aug. de Praedest Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers that seeme to make againsâ— such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall and some Fathers haue doubted of some â—aue denied p Euseb Hist Eccles li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron de Script Eccles in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru p. 664. See the Disp pag. 431. bookes of Scriâ—ture which all now beleeue â—o be Canonicall wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-auâ—â—oritie the like should haue â—appened the tenet of Assistanâ—e giuen to them in their deâ—rees of faith being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradiâ—â—on then you can shew for diâ—ers parts of Scripture which â—ou do beleeue to be diuine â—ere still euen by you in like â—anner to be admitted and â—aintained vnles you think it â—wfull to reiect those Books alâ—â— because once doubted of or â—enied and neuer to beleeue â—at which might with a preâ—nce of authoritie be oppoâ—â—d or contradicted Thus I could answer and â—are the labour to talke further of the matter Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becausâ— you wrong some that be leaâ—ned worthie Authors and some Fathers too least you finâ— adherents that will beleeuâ— you to the preiudice of theâ—selues and others vpon yoâ— bare word when they sâ—â— none contradict and confuâ— that you boast of I will suruâ—â— the citations Our dispute in this matteâ— is to be of Catholikes it is as bâ—fore was noted impertineâ—â— to talke of others and of sucâ— as in plaine termes haue auouchâ— and maintained what you prâ—tend they did Wee know thâ— some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters and yet contâ—nued in the Church either bâ—cause the thing was not suffâ—cientlie brought to light 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuinâ— faith be not at all times equaâ—lie proposed or because they were readie to submit themselues As in the QuestioÌ„s of the Canon of Scripture of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks c. and conforme their iudgment as soone as the Church declared her self Wee know â—oo that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith and of these some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach and before in all ages â—uen the primitiue Others haâ—e discouered their temptaâ—ions with all the motions of â—heir vnderstanding to and â—ro concealing onlie the finall â—esolution or euent Of which â—nfirmitie some and not wiâ—hout scandall haue exhibited â—hemselues by their writings â—ublicke spectacles to the â—orld With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle being to â—peake of such onlie if any can â—e found as haue openlie denied the infallibilitie aboue specified and yet enioyed the communion of the Church notwithstanding such a knowne deniall She doth not thrust out of her communion one who doth onlie propose his doubtes to be resolued nor yet if by way of disputation he venters to far but without auouching especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment or if he so conceale his mind or vtter himself so that nothing can be directlie proued against him Secret and concealed thoughts she cannot look into Euerie one is to be presumed good vnles the contrarie may be proued As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets vnles it be made appeare otherwise Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs oâ—herwhile be not of vs. Some â—o beare themselues for Caâ—holikes who be in their hearâ—es Atheistes or Heretikes There be no doubt Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia 2. Corint 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi ex vobis vnus diabolus est Ioan. 6.
manâ—d and the parts such as be reâ—rsed are ill putt together so that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be â—ceaued as the learned reader â—y obserue by looking on his â—rds related in the p addition q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam geâ—t homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost â— 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum interâ—amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi 〈◊〉 ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae temporibus Apostolorum vsâ—in sempiternum secundum quod per Prophetam dicit â—minus hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges â—s in cordibus eorum in sensibus eorum scribam eas Quod â—onens Ambrosius ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui â—ris in cordibus leges affigit suas scribit in sensibus â—ihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus 〈◊〉 aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus Walden li. â— 8 and continuing his discourse Haec est saies he Eccleâ—â—ymbolica Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica Apostoâ—â—mater credentium populorum quae fidem habet indefect biâ— â—ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fiâ—m gessit Ecclesiae Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat â—tua Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt â—atus dixit Nec vtique particularis illa Romana sed â—ersalis Ecclesia non quidem in generali synodo conâ—ata quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus velut illa â—ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto illa Conâ—inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam quaedam aliae sed est Ecclesiaâ— Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos caeteros successores eorum aâ— haec tempora deuoluta quae vtique veram fidem continet testimonium Christi fidele sapientiam praestaâ— paruulis inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem c. 19. in principio That others also may conceaue the same it is to be obserued that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called thâ— Church symbolicall Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter wickleffus contra Papam Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae appâ—lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christâ—nae de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam Difficultas autem eius est ista Quanâ— credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam taâ—quam fidem iterum credere debemus quòd quodliâ— membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit meâ—brum Ecclesiae credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere Haec Wicklef Actor Sub hoc globo verborum vnà cum praesumpto sâ—â— Ecclesia symbolica c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo diâ—cultas de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae quam vtiâ— credere debemus c. Ibidem Predestinate onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie doth auouch and according to Scripture Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12 Ephes 4. c. that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth in that sort that all may learne of it And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation * Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio It inuolues à Hierarchie Ephes 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers the predestinated only excepted do fall from the faith before they die or Societie Hierachicallie disposed Whence he determines it to be according to the words of the Creed it self the Catholike or Vniuersall Church that is the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan vntill our times and from henceforth vntill the end of the world and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testimonie of the faith of Christ the head and author is kindled Ibidem In which description by him there proued out of scripture and confirmed by the testimonie of S. Augustine he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie one loci of place another temporis of time as is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe And the benefit of this vniuersalitie heâ— saith is vt t sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque habenâ— doctrinam fidei that wee may knowe distinctlie as a communitie so vniuersall is found easilie which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith Heresies are limited as he shewes for time and place but the Symbolicall Church is both waies vniuersall And to it when heresies arise u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum muÌ„dum vnam habet doctrinaÌ„ Apostolicam omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recursum ipsi enim Apostoli cuÌ„ vna sana doctrina adhuc manente imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur Walden c. 18. fideles omnes debeâ— habere recursum all faithfull must haue recourse as he saith in the next Chapter The reason is because she hath x c. 18. vt suprà ad lit q. in her heart the Gospell written by the holie Ghost together with a most certaine interpretation of the Christian lawe and also giues y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica id est quam tenemâ— in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae addit enim Ecclesiâ— sic dictae communiter id est communi rationi Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta rationem vnius fidelis induâ—bitantis testimonij hoc ratione qua est vna Sic enim â—credimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam non quidem gente vel patria sed professione vnam fide de qua fide vnicum â—cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium cap. 18. Nam hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam credere eam habere veram â—fidem de Deo vera Sacramenta Ibidem Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti Ibidem Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit sc vltra authoritatem Scripturae Spiritus sancti reuelationem fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem
dicens Eccâ—â—go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus Non dixit recum sum sc cum aliqua singulari persona sed vobiscum sum cum toâ—a Ecclesia Catholica Apostolica quae seduci non potest â—ec seducere habet fidele testimonium de Christo noâ—it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. certaine testimonie to the truth Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate for instruction â—or absolution for orders wee know not who they be nor how to finde theÌ„ out They be not the Symbolicall * wickliffs Argument The predestinate do perseuer in the faith Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church Is like this A mans soule is rationall Ergo a mans soule is a man Church they haue not all â—he conditions of it Neither is any â—articular Church or Congregation The Church symbolicall no not a Geâ—erall Councell A Councell is not â—till in being they be celebrated only sometimes whereas the Symbolicall Church is to be still So likewise is the Church diffused or Vniuersall Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes 4. And against a Councell or a particular Church he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it and it therefore at that time no Church for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio whereas the Church symbolicall is in 〈◊〉 times neuer failing which thing notwithstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall which is in 〈◊〉 times existent and in faith indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. 28. Ioan. 14. 16. Tiâ— 1. ep 3. c. Ephes 4. She only hath * The predestinated preciselie haue them not all See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. 〈◊〉 the conditions of and indeed is thâ— symbolicall Church This construction of the wordâ— of Waldensis to one that reads thâ— whole discourse in him is plaiâ— and obuious This which hetherto I haue described This I saie thâ— Catholik and Apostolicall Church 〈◊〉 Christ the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient accordinâ— to the promise of Christ to Peter 〈◊〉 â—hen did beare the figure of the Church I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile is the symbolicall Church Hauing established this tenet he presentlie drawes from it an inference Non est ergo c. that being the vniuersall Church it is not anie particular as the African or the Roman particular Church or Dioces vide Disput pag. 619. ex Innoc 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuersall Neither it is a generall synod such haue erred sometimes one at Ariminum another at Constantinople and some others But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to thâ—se times which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith there is one thing required to the Symbolicall Church and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie but that is not all and testimonium Christi fidele the faithfull testimonie of Christ there is an other and the exercise of both followes giuing wisdome to the litle ones amongst extreame errours retaining the truth firme The Deuil by wickleff suggested pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion and Schisme Praescitus non habetpotestatem c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali Recitantur in Concilio Constant Sess 8. apud Wald. passim See aboue pag. 50. lit r. Here is the sence of his words to the full and for my part I see no more in them But you that can gase vpon chimeraes would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose the one that the Church of Rome may faile or erre and the other that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference nec vtique particularis illa Romana neither also is it the particular Roman Church the later vpon those other quam Synodum aliquoties errasse percepimus c. which Synod wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger and some other These two parcels then and his opinion in these two points are next to be considered I take them in order 5. Nec vtique aa Suprà ad lit q. particularis illâ— Romana The forme of speach is negatiue and the author by it denieâ— something of the Roman Church aâ— â—s a particular Church the Queâ—on since you will needs make a â—estion of it is Whether he denies â—o be the Symbolicall Church as it â—eares he doth by what hath â—ne said of this place hetherto or â—ether he denies it perpetuall conâ—ncie in the faith and indefectibiliâ— In answer to which question if â—u turne to the 48. Chapter whose â—e is de praerogatiua perpetuae immuâ—atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi â—ab omni bb contagione haeresis illibatae Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chriâ—na Romana est Ecclesia Ab hac enim praestatur huâ—nae inertiae dirigendae assistriâ— sapientia sedium diuinaâ—n vt nobiscum sit nobiscum laboret vt sciamus quid â—eptum sit coram Deo omni tempore Walden to 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu suo â—squisque varia meditatur inuenit nisi vno magistro â—ante vnus doceat paedagogus Ille puta quem ad hoc â—cium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret Ego rogaâ—ro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua Ibidem Et quid miâ— si Christo rogante Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide â—cere non est magnum Haeretice non est magnum vt â—od per se caderet Christo sustentante non possit cadere â—dem Ergo audacter dico in Christi nomine Christo â—ante Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse imâ—cabilem Ibidem Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccleâ— tanta authoritas Mihi videtur ex concessione Chriâ— ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis Primus enim confessor fuit diuinae generationis c. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur 〈◊〉 per quam totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse coâ—uincitur Ibidem you shall finde auouched anâ— proued that Ecclesia Romana non pâ—test in fide deficere the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot faile in the faith Aâ— further I affirme boldlie in the naâ— of Christ and Christ aiding the Româ— Church that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Christ impeccable The origen of thâ— he refers there to our Sauiouâ— prayer and his graunt and conclâ—ding the Chapter he saith cc Ibidem vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. Pits
vt non solum in doctrina sed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate niterentur peculiare hoc Deus esse voluit c. Ibidem all they did affirme whether the matter were dogmaticall or historicall whether substance or circumstance whatsoeuer they did affirme and put into the Scripture it is a truth But the infallibilitie of Councells is not so ample it is not so farre extended This Stapleton doth proue in the place obiected where hauing giuen the prerogatiue to that in sacred writers and Apostles he concludes b Natura nihilominus ac substantia potestatis ac certitudinis eadem est Ecelesiae nunc illius Apostolorum sicut fontis ac riuuli inde fluentis eadem est in specie bonitate naturali aqua nisi ab aliquo extrinseco immutetur quod his fieri non potest quia semper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magistrum tanquaÌ„ formaleÌ„ rationem puritatiâ— synceritatis tam fontis quam riuuli successores habent queÌ„ Apostoli ipsi habebant licet in alio diuerso gradu IbideÌ„ the nature notwithstanding and substance of the power and certitude of the Church now and of that of the Apostles is all one All one in substance but In the Apostles euerie waie exact as reaching to the decrees and to the meanes oâ— proofes and to the consequence oâ— forme and to the circumstances all and this in all kinde of matter In the Successors not so farre exact nor in that extension or fullnes but in alio gradu in another an inferior a more limitted and contracted degree In the same c Apostoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam sapientientiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine Conseruare autem prius tradita c. quia non tam praeclara exacta sapientia indiget sed satis habet si diligenter acceptis â—emel traditis insistat indefit quod Ecclesia succedens tanâ—a certitudine in ipsis medijs non dirigitur Neque enim â—nta argumentorum certitudine opus est aperire expliâ—are quod virtute in semine fidei later aliudque ex alio â—e lucere quam de nouo rem penitus ignoratam explorare 〈◊〉 docere Sic enim Philosophi c. atque haec vna causa â—st quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipsa forma ratione â—ocendi successorum Ecclesia non desideret quantam â—psi Apostoli Stapl. doctr fidei cont 4. li. 8. c. 15. place to satisfie by the way another doubt you may finde cleerelie deliuered what some haue mistaken touching his minde in the * Metere quae alij seminauerunt exacta omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget sed satis est semel acceptis diligenter insistere Neque tanta certitudine opus est aperire explicare c. quam de nouo rempenitus ignoratam explorare Ex Staplet Relec. contro 4. q. 2. Relection those words tanta â—nd omnimoda or exacta which are â—ound there import in him a comparison not in the substance of the â—ertaintie or infallibilitie or assistance that as he said before is eadem the same but in modo in the quantitie manner and degree which â—s diuers Out of which diuersitie in the manner and quantitie or extension it comes that the successors doe not reach vnto the meanes or â—rguments and consequences and â—acts and circumstances so vniuersallie with as ample and in euerie â—ne of those respects as immoueable a â—ertaintie as the first Masters and Planters of Religion and writers of the scripture did who were to â—aie the foundation and by waie of â—euelation to deliuer what the Church in after times was to insist vpon Thirdlie it is to be considered that the Pastors in Councell according to this Author and as by their Acts you may perceaue doe proceed Sometimes as Deuines deducing or inferring one thing out of another and Sometimes as Witnesses of the faith and iudges of controuersie deciding and testifying the truth and proposing it to the world to be embraced and beleeued The former is a preamble to the later in which later it is alwaies infallible whether it be or be not so necessarilie and alwaies in the former from which further Question wee do heere abstract The reason is because their decrees are generallie proposed to all not to be seene or knowne scientificallie that waie were verie singugular the most part of Christians is not able to conceaue it but to be beleeued The d Ibidem Church saith thâ— Author doth not teach ex arte sed ex authoritate not by art but by authoritie neither doth she conclude as it were by Theologicall science of God and diuine things but by the Pastorall powâ— which from God she hath receaued sâ— doth giue sentence or determine Our Sauiour did not open a schoole of science but of faith neither did he send his disciples to proue the Gospell but to preach it And teach indeed he bid them but so as by testifying and preaching they should doe it not by proueing or disputing e Ecclesiae pastoribus magistris decerneÌ„tibus creditur non quia legitimè probarunt quod decernuÌ„t sed quia apertè decernuÌ„t tradunt sic esse credendum siue decretuÌ„ suum ex legitimis medijs probasse nobis coÌ„stet siue non Haec enim est obedientia fidei de qua disseruimus Ibidem Fourthlie it is to be considered that the infallibilitie of the Church-decrees depends vpon the f Ioan. 14. promised assistance which was not to all veritie possible nor to all that is actuall neither but to reuealed onlie docebit vos omnia suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero is the promise The spirit of truth the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you To things not reuealed the promise was not extended The course was taken for bearing in minde and vnderstanding the lesson which Gods eternall Word hath giuen and whatsoeuer in this kinde the Church doth determine and propose to the faithfull to beleeue is true Neither can she propose any thing in this manner which is not indeed such as she declares it to be she hauing diuine guidance and assistance in euerie such act This which you denie Stapleton doth teach g Stapl. Relect cont 4. q. 2. not 4. Ecclesia in conclusione fidei semper est certissima infallibilis Marke that semper the Church in the conclusion of faith is alwaies most certaine and infallible So that if you finde any thing declared by the Church to be de fide it is according to his tenet most certaine and may no further be disputed And in another h Staplet de princip si contr 4. li. 8. c. 15. place Ecclesia quia non ratione sed authoritate assistentia prouidentia diuina nititur eamque infallibiliter promissam habet nec prater veritatem nec erroneè nec contra Deum vllo modo decernere
potest The Church because it relyeth not on reason but on the diuine authoritie prouidence and assistance and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her can in no sort or manner nullo modo determine besides the truth or erroneouslie or against God Whence it followes as before that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke auouching and publikelie declaring it to be scripture or to any proposiâ—ion determining it to be a point of â—aith and proposing it vnto the world for such there can be accorâ—ing to this author no further queâ—tion made of it since the diuine â—rouidence doth so guide her that â—n such definitions she in no sort â—an iudge erroneouslie or determine â—esides the truth â— Neither is this integritie in deâ—â—nition violated or our sauiours promise of assistance broken if not in matter of diuine beleefe such as â—or the good of his Church God â—ath reuealed but in i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse praeâ—er fidem arbitratur Celestius quà m sunt illae in quibus â—lua fide qua Christiani sumus aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 sententia definitiua suspenditur aut aliter quam est â—umana infirma suspicione conijcitur Velâ—â—â— cum quaeâ—â—tur qualis vel vbi sit Paradâ—sus cum tamen esse illum â—aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet Vel cum quaeriâ—r vbi nunc sit Elias c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in corâ—ore vel extra corpus in terâ—ium caelum sit raptus Apoâ—olus c. vel quot sunt Caeli c. vel vtrum elementa â—undi huius conspicabilis quatuor an plura sint c. vbi â—otuit Methusalem viuere c. Quis non sentiat in his atâ—e huiusmodi varijs innumerabilibus quaestionibus sine ad â—bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissiâ—as latebras pertinentibus quas certo aliquo generâ— complecti ac definire difficile est multa ignorari salua Christiana fide alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine S. Aug. li. 2. cont Pelag. Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer as where is Elias where Paradice how many heauens c. not in definition and attestation but in some particular * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles and another thing to argue out of others Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere deduction and coniecture she doth inferre amisse Not euerie consequence orillation not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises in matter of that nature hath infallibilitie according to this Author but the definitions and decrees all haue it If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other you may reade him or Canus or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells where you may with litle studie discerne it If it be replied that in his fourth Controuersie he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance to points onlie fundamentall excluding all other I answer that euen k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data taÌ„tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis fideli populo ceâ—ta veritate tradeÌ„dis locum habet quae vel in coÌ„trouersiam vocantur vel alioqui ad publicaÌ„ Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent Staplet fid doc li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertineÌ„t c. vel non ad publicum aliquod commune dogma explicandum quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur populus autem implicitè in maiorum fide sed ad priuatam alicuius c. Ibidem there he doth extend it to all points of faith which either are called into controuersie at any time wherein the Church is or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church In which compasse is contained all that is in the Councell of Trent defined against you or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed to be beleeued Your masters Luther Caluin and others called into question diuers things appertaining and intrinsecallie as parts to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion as bookes of holie scripture iustification Sacraments and the Masse And therefore if according to Stapleton the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vnâ—â— all points of faith called into question it is according to the same tenet extended vnto these which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith But in questions that are impertineÌ„t or * Such as some aboue pag. 97. litter i. in marg indifferent or that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one that is weake in iudgment and in some priuate case or to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie to conclude in questions that appertaine to the explicatioÌ„ of those things which are appendices additions rather then contained in or appertaining to the substance of faith if the Church should mistake it were not he thinks any preiudice to the graunt of assistance or the promised infallibilitie not if in matter of this nature she should affirme or discoursing as a Diuine which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth should inferre and logicallie l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo Ibidem conclude amisse But to make a publike decree of that which is false and propose it openlie to be beleeued of Christians as matter of faith that she cannot being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition infallible as you heard him saie before And the same he hath proued at large both by Scripture and Theologicall reasons in diuers m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont 3. q 4 cont 4. q. 2. alibi places of his booke §. IX 1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie 2. Other witnesses or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture and not recommended by it or by the author of it wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings in authoritie His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike and consequentlie of her Councells too and admitting Scripture he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells esteeming them to be in their decrees of faith infallible What mending that is which he speakes of EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam caâ—onici appellantur didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere
they who condemned and opposed the whole Catholike Church did withall sleight the authoritie of her Councells as Pagans also doe but he was to proue it by a principle which they reiected not Neither doth it followe that Councells therefore in themselues are not worthie of beleefe or infallible in their assertion or that S. Augustine did not esteeme them so when to conuince the Donatists he tooke his argumeÌ„ts froÌ„ the Prophets to confirme or proue the foresaid point S. Peter heard a voice from Å¿ 2. Petr. 1. heauen testifying of our Sauiour yet he confirmes it the same way firmiorem babemus Propheticum sermonem wee haue the prophets words which yet confirme vs more and our B. Sauiour though most worthie of credit as being the truth it selfe confirmed his resurrection and other mysteries to the Disciples by the same t Ipse Dominus Iesus cuÌ„ resurrexisset à mortuis discipuloruÌ„ oculis videndum manibusque tangeÌ„dum corpus suum offerret ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur magic eos testimonijs legis propherataruÌ„ psalmoruÌ„ confirmandos esse iudicauit ostendens ea de se impleta quae fuerant tanto antè praedicta S. Augu. de vnit Eccles c. 16. meanes One testimonie as I said before vpon the like occasion doth illustrate another and many ioyned together doe more easilie master our vnderstanding and make it yeeld obedience to the truth For the better comprehension of S. Augustines minde in this matter I will adde a word or two more touching this waie of discouering a truth in Religion suppose it be whether Iesus be the Messias and Redeemer of the world or whether this or that congregation be the Church of the Messias For the notice of the former of these two reade the Prophets where you shall finde that a Messias shall come that he shall be borne in Bethlem preach doe miracles be resisted and reiected by the Iewes who were keepers of these bookes of Prophesies be persecuted scourged put to death pierced and after death rise againe and be acknowledged and adored by the Gentiles This you reade there and it is a good direction but this is not all You must finde out the man to whom this description doth agree and in the comparison of them both together the man Iesus with the circumstances of his birth life and death to the propheticall description and the Prophesie to the man in this comparison I say you knowe that which you looke for vizt that Iesus is the Messias and redeemer of the world when you would get knowledge of the later viz. which companie is the Church you first take notice of a companie of people professing one faith in all Nations beginning at Hierusalem defending it by her Pastors u Vt omittam sapientiaÌ„ syncerissimaÌ„ quaÌ„ in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis multa sunt alia quae in eius gremio me iustissimè teneant Tenet consensio populorum atque gentium tenes authoritas miraculis inchonta spe nutrita charitate aucta vetustate firmata tenet ab ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oues suas post resurrectioneÌ„ Dominus coÌ„mendauit vsque ad praesentem episcopatum successio sacerdotum tenet postremò ipsum Catholicae nomeÌ„ c. S. August cont Epist. Fundamenti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxilium Dei tantum profectuÌ„ fructumque videamus dubitabimus nos eius Ecclesiae coÌ„deregremio quae vsque ad confessionem generis humani ab apostolica sede per successiones episcoporuÌ„ frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus partim plebis ipsius iudicio partim conciliorum grauitate partim etiam miraculorum maiestate damnatis culmen authoritatis obtinuit cui nolle primas dare vel summae profecto impietatis est vel praecipitis arrogantiae S. Aug. de vtil credendi c. 17. in Councells and otherwise offering to God euerie where Sacrifice or oblation leading an innocent life in exteriour profession and confirming with miracles her beleefe and doctrine but this alone so abstracted from the increate authoritie doth not breed an act of diuine beleefe that this companie is the Church of God wherefore you goe further and in the Prophets and other parts of the Bible reade a description of the Church diffused ouer all the world beginning at Hierusalem with power to meet in Councell and assistance of the Spirit offering to God in all Nations a cleane oblationâ— disposed Hierarchicallie with her watchmen euer on her walles heâ— Pastors readie to maintaine the truth and attending carefullie to the flock that by Errour they be not circumuented and then comparing one of these vnto the other vizt the companie to the prophesie the prophecie to the companie in the comparison you finde and beleeue with an act of diuine faith the true Church It is this as I conceaue which S. Augustine points at in the place before cited when he saith our Sauiour confirmed the faith oâ— his resurrection by testimonies oâ— the Prophets x S. Aug. de vnit Eccles c. 16 ostendens ea de sâ— impleta que fuerant tanto ante praedicta shewing those things to be fulfilled of him which so longe before were forâ—told And to this end he shewed hiâ— hands and side when he did appeare after his resurrection Which brought his disciples in minde of foderunt manus meas pedes meos aspicient ad me quem confixerunt they haue digged my hands and my feete they shall looke vpon me whom they haue pierced and the rest mouing them to faith and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound in his Master found God How to finde the Church in this manner you haue beene tould y Disp li. 2. els-where Looking all about on the world and into monuments of antiquitie you see a great companie of people reaching from the Apostles time and stretched out into all Nations communicating with the See Apostolike in the profession of one and the same Religion and holding out a booke to all that will reade it You reade and obserue And considering the companie you percaue the booke is a prophesie for being written long before the companie was extant it doth describe it perfectlie and foretels the comming of it with diuers particulars that come not of necessitie but of election and free choise considering the booke you perceaue the companie to be the Church for there you finde it so deliuered and affirmed by him that made the booke Disp p. 177. who foreseeing things future many ages before they came to passe certainly foretold of it and is worthilie belieued as hauing such an infinite foresight and certaine comprehension of all kind of things future ET ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano fine vllis
thus if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg And antiquitie thus if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended and Censent likewise if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all or neere all the priests and masters in Antiquitie And d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab vniuersalis fidei communione praeciderit quid vtique nisi vt pestisero corruptoque meÌ„bro sanitatem vniuersi corporis anteponats quod si nouella aliqua coÌ„tagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur locum hunc corruperuÌ„t Wittaker Vitus haeretici tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat quae prorsus iaÌ„ non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominuÌ„ vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur Tunc omnino curabit vt paucoruÌ„ temeritati vel inscitiae fi qua sunt vniuersaliter antiquitus vniuersalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat Quid si tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter se MaioruÌ„ coÌ„sulat interrogeâ—que sententias eorum duÌ„taxat qui diuersis licet teÌ„poribus locis in vnius tameÌ„ Ecclesiae Catholica communione fide permanentes magistri probabiles extiterunt quicquid noÌ„ vnus aut duo taÌ„tum sed omnes pariter vno eodemque coÌ„senâ—â— apertè frequeÌ„ter perseueranter tenuisse scripsisse docuisse cognouerit id sibi quoque intelligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum Vinc Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke there had been three generall Councells whose decrees though not made the * Nicenum anno 325. first of them much more then a hundred yeeres before him he â—umbers amongst the records of anâ—iquitie which are to be looked into And in like manner the decrees maâ—e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs â—ake place and order in the records â—f antiquitie respectiuelie to our times the distance of precedence â—eing more then was the distance of any Councell precedent respectiuelie vnto him You are further to obserue that â—o the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Christian religion some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Trinitie others denied the Incarnation the greatest mysteries were not Catholick in this sense neither doth â—he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times the Catholick Epistles in this sence e Vide Disp pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times were not all Catholick but his meaning is as I insinuated before that a sence or veritie appertaining to faith which is beleeued by the Symbolicall that is by the vniuersall catholike Church either allwaies or at any time for it can neuer erre in diuine faith or which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught and professed or which hath beene defined by all or neere all the Pastors those which are to teach in a generall councell is to be receaued as a Catholick sense Twice in that little booke herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting either in Councell or out of Councell and by vniuersalitie and in both places the definition of generall Councells and their authoritie comes in As in the 38. chapter where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth in this case saith he Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie antiquitie and consent of the Catholick Church And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole noueltie against antiquitie or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all or at least of farre more Catholikes let them preferre the integritie of the whole before the corruption of the part And in the same whole the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie as also in antiquitie it selfe let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe f primuÌ„ omnium generalia si qua sunt vniuersalis coÌ„cilij decreta praeponant tuÌ„c deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum atque magnoruÌ„ consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Vincent Lirin c 38. first of all if any be the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell then after if that be not let theÌ„ followe that which is next to wit the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themselues In the next chapter he tells what Fathers those must be whose opinions wee take they must be g Idem c. 39. orthodoxe such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion and remaining constant haue died in Christ or happilie bene put to death for him and those he saith are so to be beleeued that what soeuer either all or the greater part haue established or confirmed receauing holding or deliuering with one and the same meaning manifestlie oft constantlie as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted And againe in the h Idem c. 40. next Hos in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora loca dispensatos quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit non hominem contemnit sed Deum He that contemnes these fathers diuinelie distributed according to times and places in the Church of God agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of doctrine he contemneth not man but God So greate hee esteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and masters which God hath dispensed not at one but in seuerall times and yet the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell with him haue i c. 38. vt suprà the precedence primum omnium generalia si qua sint vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant tunc deinde si id minus est sequantur quod proximum est multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a second time the same matter of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie consenting in Councell or out of Councell where he speakes yet more home k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetustaâ—e duo quaeâ—am vehementer studioseque obseruaÌ„da quibus penitus inhaerere deberent quicunque haeretici esse nolunt PrimuÌ„ si
he doth expound it repugnantes some repugnant to other and if in his iudgment they be repugnant you haue no reason to conceaue he doth approoue them all Thirdlie he doth not name any Catholike author holding that assertion which you speake of or the rest which followe but tooke them out of (b) Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. Ochams Dialogues whence he (c) Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. 35. cum Quaestione Vesperiali Quaestione de Resumpta Petri Camer transcribes and some times verbatim diuers peeces of these questioÌ„s which you would make vse of Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vse of reason erring possiblie all together against faith which Ocham himselfe had said was false and the reasons for it those which Ockam giues he calls apparentes seeming yet himselfe in the end of this Question (d) Ex praedictis sequuntur aliquae propositiones corollariae Prima est quod semper in Ecclesia vniuersali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei Secunda est quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures iusti formati virtute speâ— Tertia quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia c. Quast Vesper contradicts it and maintaines the contrarie EX sacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur Baro p. 363. ex Alliac Quaest Vesp Concilium generale poteâ— defformari legi Christi idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Resumpta Ecclesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliuâ— sicut pars à toto potest haereticari Ibidem ex eadem quast 2. THe second thing obiected is that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the vniuersall is alwaies free from errour whence is inferd that in his opinion it caÌ„not be conuinced out oâ— Scripture that a generall Councelâ— is alwaies free I answere first weâ— maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall Secondlie it is one thing to saie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition and an other thing to saie that wee can proue this by Scripture it is one thing to saie the Epistle of S. Iames hath sacred authoritie and another thing to saie that by Scripture you can proue it Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull Councells could not be proued ex â—acra Scriptura by Scripture it doth â—ot follow that he denied their inâ—â—llibilitie Thirdlie what he saith in â—hat Question is deliuered they be (e) Haec dicta sint de tertia conclusione suis adiunctis de tota ista quaestione solùm disputatiuè non assertiuè Petrus Camer Quaest de Resumptâ sine his owne words disputatiuè â—â—on assertiuè by waie of dispute not â—y waie of affirmation wherefore if â—ou wronge him not you must not â—ie he held that Councells infallibiâ—tie such Councells as had all conâ—tions necessarie could not be proâ—ed yea and against a stubborne â—â—uersarie sufficientlie conuinced â—ut of Scripture Fourthlie this which â—as said not assertiuè but onelie disâ—â—tatiuè he submitted to the iudâ—â—ment (f) Non est ergo quò securiùs fugiam quaÌ„ filius ad matreÌ„ filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Ecclesiam c. Ad hanc igitur coÌ„fugiens sua lege regulari â—â—piens me dicta mea omnia suae suorum filiorum tam â—sentium quam absentium charitatiuae correctioni committo â—sub hac alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas supâ—co haberi pro repetitis gratia breuitatis ad quaeâ—onis responsionem accedo Idem Quaest Vesper in prinâ—â— of the Church therely reâ—acting or disauowing according 〈◊〉 the manner of the schooles yet in â—â—e what in this disputation might â—â—rchance escape amisse either for â—â—e substance or the manner of his speech And finallie being after much more studie and reading of Scriptures publikelie in the nature oâ— Professor made Bishop and Cardinall he was called to the Counceâ— of (g) Acta Conc. Constant Sess 20. Constance and there witâ— the rest of the Bishops he sufficientlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what 〈◊〉 generall Councell and particularlâ— that of Constance did declare touching faith If you reade the interrogatories made (h) Interrogetur vtrum credat quod illud quod sacrum ConciliuÌ„ Constantiense vniuersalem Ecclesiam repraesentans approbauit approbat in fauâ—â— fidei ad salutem animarum quod hoc est ab vniueâ—â— Christi fidelibus approbandum tenendum quod 〈◊〉 demnauit condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus â—â—trarium hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato â—dendum asserendum Martinus quintus approbante Ceâ— Constantien vtrum credat sententiam sacri Const Conâ— supra 45. articuli Ioan. Wicklef Ioan. Hus latam 〈◊〉 re veram Catholicam c. Ibidem there by thâ— Pope sacro approbante Concilio yâ— will not vrge him any more in thâ— matter TOta multitudo Clericorum Laicorum virorum pâ— Ã vera fide deficere Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Quaâ—â— Resumpta Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit â—ctis â—eis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae denâ—â—ionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis verbi â—auâ—a Ecclesia Clericorum Ecclesia Italicorum Ecclesia Galliâ—orum c Ex Scriptura sacra non conuincitur quod semper sit â—liqua talis siue consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis reâ—ulae conformetur Idem ex eadem Quaestione 3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be said in answere to the rest â—biected out of him and particularâ—â—e vnto that of the Clergie where he â—eemes not to haue then well reflected on those words of S. Paul who â—oth testifie and his testimonie is in â—he Scripture that our Sauiour coÌ„stiâ—uted and (i) Ephes 4. gaue Pastors and Doctors â—o the consummation of the Saincts vnto â—he worke of the ministerie vnto the ediâ—ing of the bodie of Christ vntill wee â—eete all into the vnitie of faith that â—e be not children wauering and caried â—bout with euerie winde of Doctrine The like wee reade in Esaie vpon (k) Esay 62. thy walls o Hierusalem I haue appointed watchmen all the daie and all â—he night for euer they shall not hold â—heir peace And other places there â—re to this purpose verie plaine that â—â—nnot be auoided Neither did he finde himselfe able 〈◊〉 satisfie the argument taken from the nature of a Hierarchie and the acts pertaining to it that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilst it lasts that is all daies till the consummation of the world which argument is there brought and he doth endeuour but
some sooner then others yet all in the end approue and propose it DEbet sacrum Concilium vniuersale regulis Sancti Spiritus tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis dirigi maximè in negotio fidei quae vna inuariabilis necessario sicut fuit permanebit scripturas rimari in dubijs sicut in sexto vniuersali Concilio actum fuit alijs multis tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta absque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in synodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae protestatio iustè ac simul appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerso charactere notantur 2. NEither is there cause to feare that a Councell assisted by the holie Ghost and defining will contradict either scripture or the h Ex hoc etiaÌ„ elici potest fideÌ„ Romanae Ecclesiae in nulla synodo vniuersali retractari posse Cutan Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augustiâ—us li. 1. con Donatistas volens stabili fundamento ex deâ—isione vniuersalis Concilij fidem probare Iam ne videar â—umanis argumentis id agere c. Idem c. 5. vidâ—s quanta â—niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest dum rectè celeâ—antur Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con Pelagianos diâ— matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem quod quisquis â—ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat ipse confrinâ—ut Ibidem faith of former times he that â—s chieflie interessed in the busines vnderstands all things clearlie and cannot contradict a veritie That which is obiected vpon ocâ—asion of S. Augustines words that i de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experimeÌ„to rerum c. fusius agemus suo loco a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things and in that case iudge amisse makes nothing to the purpose for wee dispute not of infallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment but in matters reuealed and of faith §. VI. Clemangis professed to reuerence the authoritie of Councells and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things touching them NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Parisiensi quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controuersijs morum Baro Ibidem CLEMANGIS His worke iâ— a Index libr. prohibit Conc. Trid. forbidden and his frind tâ— whom he directed it perceaued iâ— came from b Quanquam Deum ac conscieÌ„tiam testari liceat nullatenus stomachato animo illa fuisse scripta quod miror tibi visum esse quia tamen vndecun que hoc euenerit ita tibi visum est vt tuae quantum fas fuerit voluÌ„tati ac petitioni morem geram dulciora ac sedatiora enitar Clemang ad scholast Paris p 599. edit Parisiensi anno 1576. discontent being forced as appeares by his owne Epistle c Opressus naÌ„que vt nosti ante aliquot annos aemulolorum insultatione me tunc grauissimè persequentium ex vrbe illa fui excedere compulsus latebrasque à facie tempestatis coÌ„tra me iniustè admodum illic saeuieÌ„tis alibi quaerere p. 600. latebras quaerere to plaie leastâ— sight He writes bitterlie against the Clergie belike they made him flie Touching Councells he doth not contradict their authoritie howsoeuer he mistakes the manner of defending it but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it protesting both to honour them and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amisse Heare some of his owne words d Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue and faithfullie embrace all Councells as well such as longe agoe haue been duelie celebrated as also those which are celebrated now adaies and God forbid that I should thinke or speake any sinister thing of them Neither should I therefore be calumniated as lesse sincerelie esteeming them in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seeke to know and desire to haue declared vnto me some things that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie but also according to the capacitie of my litle wit trulie and wiselie speake of them And a litle after e Clemang pa. 588. I desire to be taught by thee whether thou thinkest it must be beleeued as a Catholike veritie that in those things which be of fact or of manners or of iudgments a generall Councell can neuer be deceaued as well as it is faithfullie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith And in the end f Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerariuÌ„ esset minus intellecta velle à sapientoribus discere quamuis etiam certè paratus sim si ea quae me mouent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scandadali illatiuum nimis astruere viderer aut fideli admonitu illud eradere aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare Ibidem I intend as I haue oft alreadie said neither am I loath to repeate it in these or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catholike integritie But in case I haue proposed not affirming but doubting or arguing any thing lesse certaine or true whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me And the rest which you finde cited in the Addition DIcit Christi assistentiam c. ad solos sanctos spirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam persuasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371. ANd whereas he proposeth by waie of doubt that holy meÌ„ only were to be heard speaking out of a Councell he seemes not to haue remeÌ„bred what our B. Sauiour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moyses chaire quae dicunt facite imitate not their workes but practice what they teach That such as doe celebrate a Councell should not nimis inniti to much insist or presume on this that they are a generall Councell as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit doth not make against vs it denies not to a Councell infallibilitie as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles who saies they should not relie to much therevpon as if therefore they might doe what they listed Moreouer his speach is qualified by himselfe if you marke it non debent vt videtur and g Clemang pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti mee thinks they should not I should not esteeme it profitable for them to relie c. § VII 1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of approued Councells 2. His opinion of others which are not
and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not only sound out but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeed but afore wee were borne And a litle after the words obiected gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church vnto which vndoubtedlie he S. Cyprian would haue yeelded if as then the truth of this question being cleered and declared had been established by a generall Councell Hence it followes first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells authoritie to determine controuersies and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization which you hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum qui certè fundamentalis â—o fuâ—â— noâ—dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall and that therein the truth was established by authoritie not of scripture this matter was not so resolued but of the world in a Councell and so farre established that all were to beleeue it and remotis dubitationibus without as much as doubting of it Whence it comes secondlie that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall which word he doth vse vppon another occasion and that such as maintaine the contrarie are indeed heretikes Thirdlie it is to be repeated which hath been said oft before that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells in their decrees of faith yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake and in all kinde of matter as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture and consequentlie there may be something in such a Councell sometime that may need mending Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall haue infallibilitie in their decrees some haue as those which are approued some haue not and these later may need mending euen in the decree they make touching faith Moreouer though the Councell that is plenarie and approued cannot commaund a vice or condemne vertue by decree yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed And if a lawe which at first was well made the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed become inconuenient and consequentlie not good in these circumstances though good in it selfe and in other circumstances such as those were wherein it was first made it may be changed by power equall to that which made it The Apostles by decree did forbid the eating of suffocata things strangled yet afterwards when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued the Church began to doe the contrarie To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe now it were a Sinne peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret S. Tho. 1.2 q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie for the time they were commaunded If you be sick physick is good if you be well the same is bad for you The same thing may be conuenient and inconuenient good and bad in diuers circumstances When the common-wealth is distempered a lawe may be necessarie and at other times not vsefull yea inconuenient and therefore to be annulled And the common-wealth in anulling of it mends her Statute-booke respectiuelie to these later circumstances though when she made it first she did not commit a fault Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended nor to be doubted of that it is hereticall to oppose them and consequentlie that they haue nor exteriour onlie but interiour obedience also remotis dubitationibus due to such their decrees which being manifest in him you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected vnto all which were to make him contradict both the truth and the Church of his time and himselfe He saith and wee too that some generall Councells may be mended when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp and knowne which before was vnknowne but some generall Councells cannot be mended no nor questioned or doubted of in their decrees touching faith Now to your obiections in particular First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith I answer that those words in matter of faith be your addition He speakes indeed of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne but diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith be not of this nature Neither if there had been expressed in that clause which is of generall Councels matters of faith were you able to conclude any thing against vs for wee graunt that some which beare the name may be mended in that also Of all wee cannot graunt it without contradicting S. Augustine and making him withall to contradict himselfe Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer is Scripture he meanes them all and will haue all subiect vnto mending I answer that he intended to satisfie three things obiected 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example 2. S. Cyprians writings 3. S. Cyprians Councell The comparison of Scripture is with writings and it is a part of his answer to the Second point as I haue related it And it is true that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings vide suprà pag. 130. pag. 106. marg that nothing at all can be questioned which it affirmes To S. Cyprians Epistles or any other mans wee owe not that seruice or honour Of Councels he speakes afterwards in the third place and you knowe that it is not essentiall to their decrees to be written There is also great difference betwixt Councells and the Scripture in infallibilitie as hath been showne many times although the decrees in faith of such as are approued are infallible But if you will haue him aime at this that all generall Councels whatsoeuer may be mended and in their decrees of faith you make him as before was obserued to contradict himselfe For these are contradictorie some may not as that of Nice and all may Moreouer by that saepè it is manifest that his speach is not generall as you would haue it saepè is short of Semper And the qualification which he doth vse is another argument of the same Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected of amendment in matter of faith he leaues vnanswered the Donatists obiection But neither will this make any thing to your
And the iudge of controuersies the holie Ghost being put â—o silence errour in all other matters of that kinde is remedilesse For example if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme this errour were pernicions to the Church and â—hould it preuaile in all as it might â—f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed both infants and others inmumerable would be ruined thereby for vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost Ioh. 3. he shall â—ot enter into the kingdome of heauen The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it and by the diuine commaund in both kinds The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them be not expressed there yet the Church hath them and the whole Christian lawe written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God Our obligations towards superiours of all sorts in conscience and by diuine precept to be performed and the rules of Christian conuersation be not expressed there though the Church may not be ignoraÌ„t of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and by God ordained for her direction and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed I speake of that Creed because you name it as also because the certaintie of other Creeds set out in Councells or of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed I acknowledge it as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost to the Church in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene or that of S. Aâ—hanasius if you beleeue it too then â—ecall your answer for whilst it stands there is no remedie for errours in these matters and many more nor way of assuraÌ„ce for many things which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells that our blessed Sauiour â—aught many things to the Church â—oth before his passion and after his â—esurrection which are not expresâ—ed in the Apostles Creede whereunâ—o you think only assistance is exâ—ended Reade the Gospell of S. â—ohn all ouer or of S. Luke or S. Maâ—hewe and you shall finde this to be â—ue And these things also the Spiâ—it according to promise doth suggest I haue yet many things to saie vnâ—o you which you cannot beare nowe â—ut when he the Spirit of truth comes â—e shall teach you all truth for he shall â—ot speake of himselfe Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare he shall speake This before his passion and after it for fortie daies he appeared to them speaking of the kingdome of God Act. Apost c. 1. Now that all this whether written or not written otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church is included within the obiect of the promised assistance I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ vpon whose promises all that acknowledge him to be true God Ioh. 14. should relie beleeuing them and him as most faithfull He the Spirit of truth shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture and the seÌ„â—â— which without assistaÌ„ce of the holie Ghost caÌ„not be done as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter Vide Disputat li. 3. c. 4. 5. but forbearing that discourse 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that oâ—â— Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme and Eucharist and Order if perchancâ— you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * Acts 20. deuine and how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things or that the texts indeed be Scripture if the holie Ghost doth by promise teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed I demaund also how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed or that he doth teach any at all if by the Scripture theÌ„ he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede for the Scripture is not expreslie there And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture who taught you that The same Question I will aske and you must answer mark well of euerie Chaâ—ter and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine or to make for any peece of your Religion Thirdlie some perchance will obiect that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church which may retaine it though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre You knowe out of the begining of this Relection where this euasion is insinuated and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring you seeme to make an offer in the end to repose heere But none that beleeues the Scripture can rest in it First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors who were to teach and needed assistance in it Ioann 14. he shall teach you And so they did vnderstand it as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people and the people are to learne of the Pastors whose office is to teach how shall they beleeue vnles they heare and how shall they heare with out a preacher Rom. 10. Teach all Nations was said Matth. vlt. not to the people but to the Pastors Ioann vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him were bid to feede the flock of Christ wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people and among them the predestinate depend for instruction should be assisted in their teaching especiallie then when they speake all the same Thirdlie our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church Ephes 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine in the circumuention of errour and if this meanes which is established till the worlds end be fit for this purpose as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence whom he beleeues to be God it is assisted so that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it Fourthlie if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church according to that He which heareth you heareth me Luc. 10.
Ecclesiasticae doctrinae Idem in Eâ—st ad Episc Africae ouerthrowe the coÌ„trarie and to put the matter b Ego arbitrabar omniuÌ„ quotquot vnquaÌ„ fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitateÌ„ Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse naÌ„ fides quae inibi a Patribus secuÌ„duÌ„ sacras Scripturas tradita confessionibus confirmata est satis mihi idonea efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendaÌ„ Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per GalliaÌ„ Hispanias Romae celebratis omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant quae Arrij sunt sapiunt commâ— calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt eâ— quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum c. 〈◊〉 Athanas Epist ad Epictet Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones infâ—tuant Ibidem out 〈◊〉 question and so farre that who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues were c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse quod non simul istos compescuerit piamâ—dem in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà illis proposâ—erit vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur Ibidem â—ereticks It was a vaine thing so he steemed it in the Arians by other CouÌ„cells to seek to reuerse what was â—â—ere established the definition of â—â—e holie Ghost there made the word â—f God by that Councell remaines foâ—uer d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud Nicenum aliâ— subinde concilia moliuntur quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint in singulis semper aliquid innouantes c. ignari interim omnem plantationem quaâ— non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse verbâ—â— autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet S Athanas Epist. ad Episc Africae verbum illud Domini per â—licaenum Concilium manet in aeterâ—um As for the comparison which he â—akes with scripture it e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs neque in hoc vlla controuersia esâ— Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliqâ— Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio non intelligunt quoad authoritatem secundum se sed quoad explicationem quoad nos Ibidem hurteth â—ot He that saith the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie â—eceaued is more powerfull then a Councell or that the eternall veâ—tie opeÌ„lie reuealed as it is to Saints 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture â—oth not preiudice infallibilitie Both â—ay haue it and yet one be more â—owerfull And this supposed visit â—hat both scripture and the Counâ—ell be infallible but the power of cripture more the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing He thaâ— will not submit his iudgment to thaâ— authoritie which is most powerfull doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse he doth easilie contemne a Councell who contemneâ— the Scripture proposed by the vniuersall Church as the Arians did who contradicted open Scripture and all Antiquitie Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies by Councells for though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue yet may there be another way to finde it out and that certaine too And doubtles he that seeth in scripture that which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church that which holds out the booke wherein â—he reades it doth beleeue is more powerfullie moued to giue assent then he that heares a Councell onâ—ie And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all propose the same then when one alone doth auouch it though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible §. XII Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith as certaine and vndoubted How a man is to carrie himself when matter of faith is questioned The way to finde the Catholike sence Generall Councels infallible in their decrees and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them SAepe magno studio summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam quasi generali ac regulari viâ— Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate discâ—nere huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli Quoâ— siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fraâ—des deprehendere laqueosque vitare in fide sanus atque integer permanere duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet Primò scilicet diuinae legis authoritate tuâ— deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1. VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS The argument taken from this Father is that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô◠nouationes he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees and diuers leaues are spent tâ— proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe But no paines will serue Hâ— doth more then once or twice mention them and hath testified whaâ— he thought of their authoritie Two generall a Vicent Lyrin c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in matâ—er of Religion the one by Scripture â—he other by Tradition but the scripture is profound and obscure wheâ—evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it â—iuers waies so that to knowe the â—ight meaning of it it is necessarie â—o recurre to tradition and as he â—aith in the second chapter of his booke b Idem c. 2. vide Disp li. 5. c 1. li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. pag. 395 fine that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence Which Catholik sence may be found three waies chieflie according as he conceaues it one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church a second is to see if it be held by the Fathers each writing in his owne time a third to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell By these three waies principallie a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture and all three are not necessarie but any of the three will serue the turne c Vâ—iâ—nt c. â— In the Catholik Church saith he wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where that which hath been beleeued euer that which hath been beleeued by all for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Vniuersalitie wee shall follow