to Scripture I desire you to take into consideration that the same Roman Church at the same time both proposed the Belief of those Doctrins to your first Reformers and also gave them the Scriptures testifying that they were the infallible Word of God Therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her Doctrines did evidently contradict Divine Revelation Now you will not surely deny but that in the Catholic Church there are men as learned and those in a far greater number than among Protestants Men I say who also make the Scriptures their principal study and have published almost innumerable Commentaries on them again Men of whom a great number live sequestred from the world in an assiduous Practice of Spiritual Prayer and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests Yet not any one of these does see or but suspect that the Faith they profess is contradicted by Gods Word on the contrary they invincibly demonstrate that the Church has been as the only Depository of Scripture so likewise of the true Sence of it How comes then that to be evident to you which is invisible to them Which way went the Spirit of God from the whole Church to inhabite a debauched incestuous Fryer or a stigmatized Pichard upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your Evidence If they could have shewed you in Scripture such passages as these The Pope is not the Supream Bishop and Visible Head of the Church Bread by Sanctification does not become the Body of Christ We ought not to confess our sins to Priests Purgatory is a meer humane invention It is an injury to Christ to desire Saints but none to desire Sinners to pray for us c. Such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the Church that she contradicts Scripture But where are such sayings to be found except it be in the Heretical Writings of your Reformers On the contrary some Points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in Scripture and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences and the rest are conveyed to us by the same Authority by which we receive the Scripture it self Yea by the Holy Fathers justified as consonant to Scripture and however I suppose you will not say that silence is equivolent to express contradiction The utmost that you can say is that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered Texts of Scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some Tenets of the Catholic Church But what will that avail you since Probability as hath been said will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of Obedience and incurring the horible guilt of Schism Where now do you see an evidence that the Church contradicts Scripture Prot. I shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this Point when according to your promise you shall have given me an account of the necessary Doctrines of your Church in the points controverted between us §. 60. Cath. That Promise I will now with Gods assistance discharge through all the Points mentioned by you in the beginning And first as touching the two first Points viz. 1. The Churches Authority 2. The Popes Universal Iurisdiction c. enough hath been said in our former discourse Yet for your further satisfaction I will enlarge my self a little more Take therefore into your consideration that it is a Fundamental Truth agreed on by all Catholics That the only Objects of Catholic Faith are such Divine Truths as are revealed in Gods Word and also proposed to all by the Catholic Church to be believed by Divine Faith Now this general Ground being presupposed in case any Controversies should arise touching the sence of any Divine Truths revealed it is unquestionably necessary that some Means should be appointed by God to determine such controversies and to prevent a dissipation of his Church by Heresies and Schisms And what other Mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the Apostles time and this declared by the Council of Trent That no man trusting to his own prudence or skill shall presume to interpret Holy Scripture in matters of Faith or Manners pertaining to edification of Christian Doctrine wresting it to his own sences against that sence which our Holy Mother the Church doth or hath held to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of Holy Scriptures or also against the unanimous consent of the Fathers This is that which the Roman Catholic Church teaches concerning her Authority of interpreting controverted Texts of Scripture No more then this is any Catholic obliged to believe Now I leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient Ground for you to break from her Communion upon this quarrel because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole Body of Teachers and Governors appointed by God in her should prevail against your single judgment or that of a few Apostat-Ministers Especially considering the Promises made by our Lord to his Apostles and their lawful Successors that his Spirit should remain with them and direct them into all Truth till the end of the world so as that the gates of Hell that is say the Fathers Heresies should never prevail against them Prot. I see it is in vain to contradict this §. 61. Cath. Let us next proceed to what the Church has determined touching the Priviledges and Authority of the Prime Pastor the Bishop of Rome Thus then we read in the Confession of Faith collected by the Pope himself out of the Council of Trent I acknowledg the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church to be the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and I promise true Obedience to the Bishops of Rome Successor of St. Peter Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Iesus Christ. Here the See Apostolic being acknowledged the Mother and Mistress of all Churches and the Pope Vicar of Christ his universal Iurisdiction is therein acknowledged which Jurisdiction or Authority we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted but as we read in a Canon of the Council of Florence consented to by the Emperor Patriark and other Bishops of Greece to be exercised 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. after the manner as is also contained in the Gests of Oecumenical Councils and Sacred Canons And such a Primacy invested with Authority as this the General Council of Chalcedon admitted by Protestants does acknowledg in him which is also attested by Tradition and practice from the beginning §. 62. Now the necessity of such a standing Authority in Gods Church is thus grounded The absolutely Supream Ecclesiastical Authority against which can lye no Appeal is confessedly residing in a lawful General Council by which all Debates whatsoever may be determined all necessary Laws enacted c. But it being a matter of infinite difficulty especially since the division of
✚ I. Question WHY ARE YOU A CATHOLIC The ANSWER follows II. Question BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT An ANSWER Attempted in vain 1 Pet. 3. 15. Be ready always to give an Answer to every man that asketh you a Reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and reverence Writen by the Reverend Father S. C. Monk of the Holy Order of St. Benedict and of the English Congregation LONDON Printed in the Year MDCLXXXVI ✚ TO THE Christian Reader IT was in Obedience to the desire of an Honourable Friend that this following Discourse was written that it was confined to such narrow lounds and that it is now Published He thought it requisite that such Catholics as are not at leasure to read Volums of Controversies should be instructed how to give a rational Account to Modern Sectaries why they are Catholics and he thought also that to justifie such their Profession a long Discourse would not be necessary This occasioned the following Answer to the Question proposed in the Title which Answer if rational and satisfactory will prevent or rather determine all other particular Questions about Religion the debating of which furnishes the world with Books to fill great Libraries But what fate soever shall befal this Answer in the esteem of Readers certain it is that the method of it is unquestionably useful by which is shewed that the Controversie about the Church is first of all to be seriously debated because what Party soever shall be able to give convincing Proofs that their Church is the same or a true Member of the same Church which we believe in the Creed shall thereby evince that all accusations laid against her are false and groundless and all separation from her damnable And on the other side it will be to no purpose to examine the Tenets of a Church already prejudged to be a false Church that is to want the inseparable Marks of a true Church signifyed by these words in our Creeds One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church denoting Unity of Faith Sanctity of Discipline Universality and uninterrupted Succession of Teachers and Governors from the Apostles to be necessary Signs of a true Church Now for as much as regards the following Discourse if any one shall think fit to undertake a Reply to it he may please to take notice that unless he intend to make quarrels useless and endless the only proper Reply will be his Answer to another like Question which he may suppose to be proposed to him by a Catholic viz. How can a Protestant think himself safe in a Congregation which never was incorporated in any Church whatsoever existent before the pretended Reformation This Question if seriously and rationally resolved and especially if the Resolution of it be justifyed by Authorities of by us all approved Antient Catholic Doctors it will then only be esteemed of considerable force against this following Answer to the Question Why are you a Catholic Now in this renewed Impression the Author thought expedient that such a Second Question should be proposed as by a Catholic to a Protestant demanding reciprocally of him Why are you a Protestant To which Question an Answer is framed the most suitable to Protestants grounds that the Author could devise He is not ignorant that this fashion of writing Controversies Dialogue-wise is oft obnoxious to exceptions and not unjust suspicions of partiality and prevarication For indeed we sometimes see Dialogues in which the Authors who may make their pretended Adversaries to speak as they themselves please do put foolish Answers into their mouths and then laugh at them presuming thereby to have gained a Victory But such a poor shift as this the Author protests against The allegations against the Roman Church brought in by the Protestant are in the Authors opinion the most considerable that are to be found among Protestant Controvertists which allegations he is permitted also to deliver in a Stile for its sharpness becoming a Protestant now a la Mode True it is the Author could not possibly make him answer pertinently and directly to the Question But whose fault is that No such Answer with tolerable satisfaction as far as the Author could inform himself could be found in rerum natura Now if any Protestant Reader shall dislike the Author's introducing his Protestant sometimes relenting or convinced that some Catholic Doctrines are too oft falsly and maliciously represented by Adversaries the Authours excuse must be that he having according to his conscience demonstrated so much his duty was to shew his Adversary a rational honest man that is such a one as will be satisfyed with reason and indeed with no other is he willing to treat However if this do not content the Reader he may do well to frame a better Protestant Answer to the general Question Why are you a Protestant But except such his Answer be indeed precisely pertinent and proper to the clearing his Church from the Charge of Schism either by shewing that she is indeed a true Member incorporated into the Body of the Catholic Church believed in our Common Creed Or that she is innocent and not chargeable with Schism though she be not yea abhors to be so incorporated he would do much better to save his labour No other Answer can be pertinent No excursions into Invectives against any other Church or Churches will be at all to the purpose Except therefore the pretended Answer be qualifyed as hath been said he must give the present Author leave to protest against it as no Answer at all notwithstanding which Protestation the Protestant may and probably will take leave to think and proclaim it unanswerable Now the rather to invite him to undertake such a just though unusual and hitherto unpractised a Task the Author does here freely acknowledg that was a principal end of his Writing and Publishing this Discourse for the truth is the World has been too long and too much abused with impertinencies and malicious Buffoâ—ries to the perverting of Souls encrease of Atheism and shame of our Nation Another considerable Motive also of composing this short Discourse was a desire in the Author to take occasion to deliver briefly the Catholic Church's Doctrines as they are in themselves and freed from the curious fancies of School-men and misprision of Sectaries to the Glory of God and the good of Souls ✚ Why are you a CATHOLIC A DIALOGUE BETWEEN A PROTESTANT AND A CATHOLIC §. 1. Protestant WHY are you a Catholic Catholic Because I am a Christian and by the Rule of Christian Faith the Apostles Creed am obliged to believe the holy Catholic Church Prot. Did not you believe that Article before you was a Catholic Cath. I thought indeed at that time that I had believed it but I have found since that I only thought so Prot. It seems then you do not think that I believe this Article as well as you Cath. I am sure that by vertue of this Article you are not obliged to be
a Protestant §. 2. Prot. Perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this Article Cath. It may well be so therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few Questions to you Prot. Ask what you please Cath. First then when you say you believe the holy Catholic Church do you not believe this Church to be one Body as St. Paul expresly teaches saying There is one Body one Spirit as there is one Hope of our calling one Lord one Faith one Baptism one God and Father of all c. Ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following Creeds of the Church Prot. Yes I believe the true Catholic Church of Christ to be one Body §. 3. And do you not further believe that this Church of Christ shall continue one Body till the end of the world Prot. Yes doubtless for otherwise the time might come in which this Article of our Faith should be false and also Christ's promise That the Gates of Hell should never prevail against his Church should fail §. 4. Cath. In professing such a Belief of this Article do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a Member of this one Catholic Church Prot. Yes without doubt Cath. You cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a Member of this one Church or not Prot. No by no means On the contrary I acknowledg that whosoever is separated from this one Church of Christ and dies in that separation cannot be saved §. 5. Cath. Thus far then we both agree Let us further if you please consider what a Church in general is I mean a Christian Church Prot. I conceive it to be a Society of Men and Women publicly professing that Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ. §. 6. Cath. But every Society thus professing is it thereby the same Church which we are taught to believe in the Creed Prot. It is at least a part of that Church Cath. Are then Societies of Heretics and Schismatics part of that one Church since they also profess the Religion which they believe to have been taught by Christ Prot. No For they cut themselves off from this one Church either by inventing New and false Doctrines which renders them Heretics that is Chusers of a new Faith Or by disobeying the Lawful Commands of this one Church which renders them Schismatics that is Rebels §. 7. Cath. Can any Society be called one Body or Corporation unless it be united by common received Laws and Governors Prot. I now begin to perceive whither you would lead me Therefore I must advise well lest I engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this Question Cath. Sir it is not Victory but truth we now regard Therefore speak not of being engaged but freely recal any Answer you have or shall give if you find cause And as for the present Question consider well what that is which makes a Society as a Kingdom a Province an Army a City a Corporation to become one Body Is it not an Obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these to be subject to the peculiar Government and Laws there established This appears plainly in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission he is esteemed and treated as a Rebel a Fugitive an outlawed person and utterly deprived of all Priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said Body Prot. This cannot be denyed Cath. Apply this then to God's Church St. Paul says expresly it is one Body your Creed obliges you to call it One The Scripture compares it to a City at Unity in it self and to a well ordered Army with Banners under which all Soldiers are reduced in their ranks expecting the Generals command signifyed by subordinate officers Such a society is Gods Church It is the Kingdom of Christ which if once divided cannot stand But by his promise it and no other Kingdom besides it shall stand for ever and therefore it shall never be Divided but all its members shall continue in their order Now what makes such Order but obedience to Government and Laws Can you Imagine any other excluding this Prot. I must confess I cannot For it is plain that where every one will be a Law to himself there can be no Order nor Unity nothing but confusion and endless Divisions Cath. Hence it follows then that the Church must necessarily consist of Teachers and Disciples of Governors and Subjects Prot. That is granted Cath. And consequently that it is a Visible Society Prot. True for otherwise none will be able to know whom or what to obey No Society can be invisible to the members of it and it is not a Society if the Governors or Teachers in it be invisible and the Laws unknown §. 8. Cath. By whom have these Teachers and Governors been appointed in the Church Prot. St. Paul informs us Epes 4. 11. 12. 13. saying Christ gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ Till we all come in the unity of the Faith and of the knowledg of the Son of God unto a perfect man c. So also we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews No man taketh this honour to himself but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. §. 9. Cath. This being so are not they who are Disciples in Gods Church obliged in conscience to believe their Teachers and Subjects to obey their Governors Prot. Yes without doubt But yet with this condition that these Teachers teach truth and these Governors command lawful things Cath. But is every Subject to be a Iudg whether the Doctrine taught him be true and the thing commanded lawful Prot. The Scripture is to be Judg between them Cath. Indeed that which you say would be to some purpose if the Scripture could speak and answer the Readers Questions and Doubts as we two can do to one another But the Scripture being only a Writing and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises if it may be permitted to every Christian to judg of his Teachers Doctrines by examining them by Scripture the Church may as well be without Teachers §. 10. Prot. I know no remedy For since it is evident to us that there is on Earth no visible infallible Guide and Interpreter of Scripture we cannot rely upon any Man or any Society of Men so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us either out of ignorance or secular interests Therefore we must leave to all Christians a judgment of diseretion to discern by the Light of Gods word whether their Teachers guide them in the way of Truth or not Every one must take the best course he can not to fall into any dangerous Error And since Eternity depends upon it it is not likely that men will
Temple These therefore so many and so great bonds keep a believer firm in the Catholic Church although by reason of his natural dulness and perhaps his sins he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of Divine Truths But among you Heretics who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me nothing is heard to sound but a vain promise of true Doctrine c. Firmissime tene et nullatenus dubites Hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every Heretic or Schismatic baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost if before he Dies he be not joyned and incorporated into the Catholic Church he can by no means be saved though he should give never so many Alms yea though he should shed his Blood for the Name of Christ For neither Baptism nor liberal distributing of Alms nor the undergoing death for the Name of Christ can profit any one to Salvation as long as Heretical or Schismatical lewdness perseveres in him which leadeth to eternal death §. 3. Of the Catholic Churches Authority Of interpreting Scripture Saint Augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the Disciples of Catholic Faith by which men were commanded to believe the Church not being taught by demonstrative Reasons what was true To satisfie this Friend he wrote his Book De Utilitate credendi Ecclesiae in which he writes thus It is fitly instituted by the Majesty of Catholic Discipline that those who come to Religion should before all other things be perswaded to believe the Church But you will say were it not better that Reason should be employed to move me which without any temerity I might follow withersoever it leads me Perhaps it might be so But since to come to the knowledge of God by Reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the Reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of Divine Mysteries Or are the greatest number of men such or but a few I suppose you will answer But a few If so do you think that the knowledg of Religion is to be denyed to all the rest who have not so piercing a Judgment It is a miserable thing to be deceived by Authority but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it If Gods Providence does not preside over human affairs there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about Religion We ought not therefore to despair that some Authority is constituted by God by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to God Puto si quis Sapiens extitisset I conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our Lord had given his Testimony viz. that he should be directed by him and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves not so much to that man himself as to our Lord Jesus Christ by whose Testimony he is recommended Now such Testimony doth our Lord afford to his Church Haeretici qui cum in unitate Heretics who though they be not in Catholic Unity and Communion yet Glory in the title of Christians are compelled to oppose Orthodox Believers and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful Christians by force of disputing and Reasoning whereas our Lord came with a peculiar Medicine against this when he enjoyned not reasoning but Believing to all people But Heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason because they see themselves in a most abject Condition if their Authority be compared with Catholic Authority Therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of Reason against the most unshaken Authority of the firmly established Church This is the uniform and as it were regular temerity of all Heretics But the most clement Emperor of our Faith has fortified with the Citadel of Authority his Church both by numerous Congregations of People and Nations and the Chairs of his Apostles He also by a few piously learned and truly Spiritual men has armed his Church with most copious provisions of invincible Reason But the more secure and rational Discipline is That those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the Castle of Faith depending on Authority that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful Reason Noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere Neither durst we affirm any such thing viz. that Hereties ought not to be rebaptized if we were not strengthned by the unanimous Authority of the universal Church To which Authority no doubt Cyprian who held the contrary would have submitted if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a Plenary Council Proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de Scripturis Canonicis non proferatur exemplum Although no express example can be brought out of Canonical Scriptures touching this Point of rebaptization yet the truth of the same Scriptures in this matter is held by us when we do that which has pleased the Universal Church which the Authority of Scripture themselves does commend That since the Holy Scripture cannot deceive us he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question may consult the same Church about it which Church the holy Scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate Aliud est cum Authoritati credimus It is one thing when we believe submitting to Authority and another when we yield to reason To believe Authority is a way very compendious and without labour Et si nulla ratione indagetur Whatsoever is from Ancient times preached by our Orthodox Faith and believed through the whole Church though by no search of reason it can be found out and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed yet notwithstanding it is to be acknowledged most true Haeretici sunt sibi arbitri Religionis Heretics are to themselves judges of Religion Whereas the proper work of Religion is the Duty of Obedience to Authority Non ad Scripturas provocandum est We must not disputing with Heretics appeal to Scripture Neither is the debate to be constituted in things in which either no victory at all will follow or an uncertain one or little better than uncertain For though the success of examining Scriptures should not be such that each party should have no advantage over the other yet due order requires that that should be first proposed about which at present we are to dispute viz. to which of the parties the preaching of Faith belongs who have right to the Scriptures from whom and by whom and when and to whom that Discipline has been delivered by which men are made Christians For where the Truth both of Christian
remitted and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained As likewise to the Precept to Saint Iames Confess your sins one to another Which Texts have been alwayes interpreted by the Holy Fathers in the same sense The universal Practice likewise of the Iewish Synagogue conformable hereto adds a considerable weight to induce us to a perswasion that it is by Divine Institution For how can it be imagined that by any humane invention a Duty so burthensom to flesh and blood and to our Natural Pride could have been introduced generally into the Church without sparing the awfull Majesty of Kings and Modesty of Queens by an unarmed Ecclesiastical Power the Pope himself also owing such Submission to a simple Priest §. 79. The ground of the necessity of this Sacrament is because those who by Baptism having submitted themselves to the Churches Authority afterwards do violate the Laws of the Gospel ought to undergo the judgment of the same Church in the Tribunal of Penance where she exercises the Power given her of remitting and retaining sins Now such judgment is esteemed as given by Iesus Christ himself by whom and in whose place his Priests are appointed Iudges It is this invisible High Priest who after Confession Sorrow and Satisfaction interiourly absolves the Penitent whilst the Priest exercises the exteriour Ministery as a Subordinate Iudge without whose concurrence Sins shall not be remitted §. 80. As for Satisfactions imposed after Confessions they according to the Churches expression regard only Temporal Pains due to our Sins She does not teach that we can satisfie God for the guilt even of Venial Sins or for Eternal Pains Moreover she declares that these Satisfactions are accepted of God through the Merits of Christ and that they do no way obscure the benefit of Christs death For Christ by his death has so satisfied for our sins that it is Gods pleasure his satisfaction should not produce its full effects till it be by us particularly applyed in the use of his Sacraments and works worthy of Penance to which Works his Merits being linked and not otherwise our Satisfactions will be accepted by him through his pure Grace and Mercy The Lutherans who seem so only to rely on Christs Passion for the remission of their Sins doubt not yet to profess that a previous Faith is necessary thereto for such as are come to the age of discretion and Baptism for Infants The difference then between us is that they pretend to be justified by a Dead Faith and we by a Living Now therefore advise with your self whether you would forsake Gods Church rather then submit your self to a Duty without which that eminent Priviledge given by our Lord to his Ministers for the general good of his people of remitting Sins becomes vain and of no effect Prot. I will seriously think on this and now expect what you will say concerning the other Articles 9. Of Indulgences §. 81. Cath. I will if you think good in the next place treat of the Point touching Indulgences by reason of its affinity to the former Prot. I leave the Method to your own choice Cath. Concerning Indulgences then the Church hath thus delivered her sense Since the Power of giving Indulgences hath been bestowed on the Church by Iesus Christ and that She hath made use of this Power divinely left her from antient times the Holy Synod teaches and commends the use of Indulgences as very beneficial to all Christian people and approved by the Authority of other Holy Synods and that they ought to be retained in the Church And denounceth Anathema against those who assert that they are unprofitable or deny that there is a Power of giving them in the Church Notwithstanding the Synod admonishes that the granting of them be done with great moderation according to the ancient and approved Custome of the Church for fear least by two great a remisness Ecclesiastical Discipline be weakned Thus we are taught by the Church And certain it is that there is not any Point of Catholic Faith which taken simply according to the Churches own expression is more evident as to the Truth of it and less offensive as to the use then is this touching Indulgences Yet after all there is not any one Point so embroyled by Controvertists disputing for and against Inferences and Interpretations made by several Schoolmen which have occasioned most horrible Scandals by abuses committed in Practise This having been the first occasion of Luthers revolting and Schism §. 82. Now forasmuch as regards the proper necessary sence of this Canon those very Schoolmen who advance the virtue of Indulgences much beyond what will be allowed by many very learned Catholics yet do acknowledge that the Church by her Decision obliges us to believe as of Faith only this viz. That only such a Power of conferring Indulgences has been left by our Lord to his Church as from ancient times has been practised and approved by former Synods intending those that are usually cited to that purpose as the first of Nicea Can. 11. of Neocaesare Can. 3. of Laodicea Can. 1. and 2. the Fourth of Carthage Cap. 75. and of Agdes Can. 6. in all which Synods we only find this that it was always lawful and usual for Bishops to remit to their Penitents some part of those Canonical Penances which were inflicted for certain crimes in case the life and laudable conversation of the Penitent did seem to deserve so great a favour or if by such indulgence they thought requisite to encourage weaker Christians in times of Persecution to suffer for the Faith Hence appears that whatsoever beyond this we read in the Catholic Writers as thouching the remission of any pane due to Sin in the judgment of God or after death in Purgatory or touching certain clauses in the Bulls of some Popes or touching the Churches Treasure consisting of the Merit of Christ alone as some or of the Merits of Saints joyned to those of Christ as others conceive c. not any of these are necessary Points of Catholic Faith Thus in effect the Catholic Church requires no more to be assented to but what is taught and practised by every Congregation of Christians upon Earth All Sects even Fanatics and Quakers denounce Censures against Delinquents Must all those Censures alwayes have their full effect Is no mercy to be extended to humble contrite Penitents Shall no difference be made between Sinners converted and those that are remorsless This is contrary to humane Nature and the practise of all mankind Therefore surely you would not forsake the Catholic Church for allowing that which all Christians esteem necessary §. 83. Prot. If this were all that the Roman Church teaches concerning Indulgences they are much to blame who condemn her But the general Practise therein contradicts you Do we not see the virtue of Indulgences extended to the other world Do we not see in the tenor of promulgated Plenary Indulgences all Sinners promised
Remission and Heaven too for a few Prayers recited for visiting a certain number of Churches or disbursing a small sum of Money Quid ergo verba audio cum fact a videam Cath. All that you alledg being confessed what prejudice can that bring to you or me I told you that several School-men in their Speculations do attribute more to Indulgences then the Church gives them warrant for and this they themselves acknowledg So it fares in all Religions that Opinions do in number far exceed Articles of Faith No wonder therefore if Popes do enlarge their Graces according to the measure of Opinions not condemned And who justly blame them since they themselves reap no profit by all the Alms given Indeed in the former Ages great Scandal was given by the avarice of such as published Indulgences and collected the charitable Alms of devout people Of which Scandaâ— â—â—e Church taking notice utterly abolished that Office and commanded Bishops in such occasions to assume from among the Canons of their respective Churches to be Collectors of Alms withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour §. 84. Matters standing thus what harm flows to any by Indulgences so published Though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such Indulgences yet something they do certainly gain some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned which probably would otherwise never have been done by many However they loose nothing at all They are taught not to expect remission of unrepented sins or to gain Heaven by an Indulgence for none are capable of the fruit thereof but such as have with Contrition confessed their sins and received absolution and consequently are in the state of Grace but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments from which an Indulgence duely made use of doth free them §. 85. One incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of Indulgences which is the enervating of Ecclesiastical Discipline to prevent which the Church as I said in the entrance into this Point expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved Custom of the Church Now If all this care will not yet satisfy you however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the Church upon this account because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of Private Doctors and common practice about Indulgences you will not need to concern your self in any of them since if you think fit you may keep your money in your purse perform your Devotions in your private Closet endeavour to fulfil all Canonical Penances which have been or by the utmost rigor of Ecclesiastical Discipline ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an Indulgence Prot. Enough hath been said on this subject proceed if you think fit to the next 10. Of Iustification and Merit of Good Works §. 86. Cath. After the discoursing of Confession Penance and Indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the Fruit arising from or by occasion of them which is the Merit of Good Works and Iustification There is scarce any Point of Catholic Doctrine from which Protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish Books and senceless Sermons then this touching Iustification and oft it falls out that their zealous Invectives against the Church are then most loudand bitter when explaining themselves they presently agree with the Churches sense Of this as soon as I have sincerely acquainted you with our Catholic Doctrine I am content you should be the Judg. §. 87. First then it is acknowledged that the Church teaches That men are justified indeed by the imputation of Christs Iustice and by Remission of their sins but not by these only so as to exclude Grace and Charity shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost that is in effect That God does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him Again the Church making use of the ordinary expression of the Holy Fathers teaches That a person justified truly merits eternal Life by his good Works Now this word Merit the word I say but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it is very offensive to Protestants But you having obliged your self to avoid partiality will judg of the Churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this Point and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation §. 97. Thus then she further teaches it is necessary to believe that sins neither are nor ever have been remitted but by Divine Mercy freely extended to us for the merits of Iesus Christ. Again We are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our Iustification whether Faith or Works can merit that Grace In the third place Eternal life ought to be proposed to the Children of God both as a free Grace mercifully promised to them through Iesus Christ and also as as a Recompence which is faithfully rendred to their Good Works and Merits by vertue of that Promise Fourthly although in Holy Scriptures so much is attributed to Good Works that Iesus Christ himself promises that a Cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a Reward and that the Apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding eternal weight of glory Yet God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord whose Goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased that the Free Gifts bestowed by him on them should be their Merits I will add only one passage more out of a great heap to the like effect We who of our selves as of our selves can do nothing by our Lords cooperation who gives us strength can do all things Thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory but all our glorying is in Christ in whom we live in whom we merit in whom we satisfy bringing forth fruits worthy of Repentance which fruits take their vertue from him are offered to the Father by him and accepted of the Father for him Thus are we instructed by the Church in the Council of Trent and moreover in the Canon of the Holy Mass we are taught thus to pray Mercifully vouchsafe O God to admit us into the Society of thy Apostles and Martyrs not weighing our Merits but pardoning our offences through Iesus Christ. §. 89. Can you now say Sir that the Roman Church teacheth her Children to glorifie themselves and to rely upon their own Merits or indeed to esteem their Merits to
wilfully misinterpret Scripture to their own destruction especially in Points Fundamental which are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them Cath. Well Sir I have at present done asking Questions and now better enabled by what you have said will endeavor to give you a fuller Answer to the Question you proposed in the begining viz. Why are you a Catholick §. 11. First then Sir I am a Catholick because I believe that Christ the Author and Finisher of our Faith is infinitely both good wise and omnipotent His goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind by establishing a Church upon earth which should remain till the end of the world and in which the way to Heaven should be so taught as not only the Wise and Learned but the Poor Simple and Ignorant also should by Faith and Obedience be made partakers of Eternal Happiness Now his goodness having designed this his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed Design and omnipotence to make those means successful § 12. The general efficacious means to accomplish this are first The revealing his whole will to his Church which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in Holy Scripture as to all points absolutely necessary to Salvation though in all those points not so clearly to every one that without a Teacher their sense may not be mistaken Neither doth Scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary And secondly The assisting of this his Church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary Divine Truth manifested to her to her Subjects with a command that all Christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them God having thus revealed his whole Will to his one Catholic Church it necessarily and evidently follows 1. That Ignorance or Error in any Points of Christian Doctrine necessary to Salvation is damnable 2. That a Seperation from this one Church is damnable also upon what pretence soever the separation be made §. 13. Now to avoid eternal Misery thus threatned by Error or Schism only one of these two ways is possible 1. By ones own light to penetrate into all Mysteries so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by God in Holy Scriptures 2. Or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our Reason and internal Assent to Authority The former of these ways all Sects divided from the Roman Church and among themselves do uniformly take being forced hereto by denying any visible Society of men to have any authority obliging the Consciences of their Subjects and by conseqence they have all if any an equal Title that is indeed equally none at all to challenge belief one as well as another neither can they rationally without deserting their common Ground condemn or excommunicate one another The latter way we Catholics only take and as we think prudently and surely §. 14. For Sir I beseech you to consider what a busy laborious task you have undertaken by being a Protestant of what Sect among them soever you are Before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the Peculiar Fundamental Doctrines of your Sect your Conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a Religion by hazard but after a diligent sincere and effectual examination of all the Reasons and arguments not only of Catholicks submitting to Authority but also of other Sectaries who proceeding your way of interpreting Scripture by a private light do condemn your Doctrines or whose Doctrines you condemn To be able to do all this how many Volums of Controversy are you obliged to read and examine Besides this it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the Books of Scripture with the best Commentaries on them both Ancient and Modern since you ground your Religion upon a sense of Scripture which perhaps not any of them will allow and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it Now what one mans age will suffice for all this business though but in one or two Points controverted and though the party were learned and had never so much leasure What then shall ignorant persons do who yet make up the greatest number of Christians What shall Trades-men and Day-Labourers do who can scarce allow from their necessary Vocations any time at all dayly even to say their Prayers yet it concerns all these upon the venture of Eternal Happiness or Misery not to forsake or embrace a Religion without a sufficient Examination made by themselves of the grounds of it since they are told and believe it that they must trust to themselves only because no external Authority upon Earth can require from them a submission of their judgment inasmuch as according to their general fundamental Positions no Authority is infallible §. 15. Now whereas you said That all Fundamental Doctrines of Christianity are so clearly set down in Scripture that no sober Enquirer can be mistaken in them If this were true yet since neither the Scripture nor you your selves do clearly express which and how many Doctrines are fundamental every tittle of Scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you for fear a necessary Doctrine should chance to escape you But to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your Assertion I desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of Sects swarming in this age all which ground their Belief upon pretended clear Texts of Scripture alone you will then scarce find one Article of Christian Faith exempted from their Disputes There are not wanting who deny the Mistery of the Holy Trinity the Divinity and Incarnation of our Lord the Divine Personality of the Holy Ghost Some absolutely deny Freewill whilst others exalt the power of it so high as to affirm Divine Grace unnecessary to its best Operations Some affirm our Nature to be so incurably polluted by Original Sin as that all the best actions of the Regenerate are Mortal Sins Others will acknowledge no Original Sin at all Some affirm Baptism necessary to Salvation even of Infants Others reject Infant-Baptism and Calvinists assert that Infants without Baptism are sanctified by their Parents faith and that some Infants dying though baptized may be damned Some believe mans Soul to be mortal and that it perisheth with the Body not having any Knowledg or Sentiment after death Some confine God to a determinate place in Heaven and also deny his Prescience of future Contingents Lastly some deny an Eternity of torments in Hell Surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to Fundamental Doctrines of our Faith yet all who maintain these Tenets and all Sectaries who contradict them do ground themselves upon express Scripture which to you seems so clear You cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of Scripture than they of a
be admitted in France the Pope not only knowing but expresly allowing such refusal as appears by the Bull of Pope Clement the eight sent to King Henry the fourth at his reception into the Church and recited by Cardinal Perron in his Epistles in which Bull we find this Clause His Majesty shall effectually take order that the Council of Trent he published and admitted in all things Excepting only at your must earnest Supplication and Petition those things if there be any such which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility The King of Spain likewise though believed to be more complyant with the Court of Rome being sollicited by the Pope to publish and admit the same Council in his Belgick Provinces though he willingly yielded thereto yet he did it not without this additional Clause adjoyned Touching the Regalities Rights Prerogatives and Preeminences of his Majesty his Vassals Estates and Subjects the Laycal Iurisdiction hitherto used the Right of Lay-Patronage the Right of Nomination Hearing of causes in the possessory matter of Benefices Tithes possessed or pretended to by Seculars c. in regard of all such things his Majesties Intention is that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done without changing any thing at all c. So necessarily scrupulous are Christian Princes to prevent the least diminution of their Temporal Rights and Priviledges More lately likewise when certain Authors of one Order published several Treatises in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the Popes Iurisdiction Universal in Temporal affairs those Books were censured and condemned by many Catholic Universities and committed to the fire by Public Authority the Pope not being ignorant hereof And moreover which perhaps is yet more considerable the Superior General of the said Religious Order even in Rome it self published an Edict known to all Christendom by which he strictly forbad his Subjects under most heavy Censures to maintain such a Temporal Iurisdiction of the Pope either in Books Sermons or Disputations Now that which makes this so solemn a Prohibition of more weight is this that whereas the foresaid Authors earnestly contended to prove that all Christians were obliged to believe the Popes Right to such Authority as an Article of our Christian Faith the said General by publishing his Prohibitory Edict clearly shewed that he renounced the Belief of such a Doctrine For otherwise Who but a◠Antichrist would so severely under a penalty of Excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an Article of Faith And moreover in a General Chapter not long after assembled the said Prohibition was ratified by all Superiors of the same Order as their own Writers testifie Prot. I must needs confess that Christian Princes and Subjects too are much beholding to that Worthy General for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and Seditions Notwithstanding it seems to me that Princes are not yet secure for though the said Doctrine should cease to be esteemed an Article of Faith why may it not be defended as an Opinion at least Speculatively probable and if so a slender Probability will have force but too great to raise and foment Rebellions when discontents are multiplied among the people §. 66. Cath. You are much deceived Sir For besides that you may be sure that Princes will never permit their Authority to be rendred questionable the very pretending such a Doctrine to be only Probable is equivalently to grant that it is no Authority at all Since every one knows that a meer probable Title against a long established possession such as is that of Princes for their Temporal Soveraignty is in Law and Reason accounted no Title and consequently none who have any sence of Christianity will ever seek with the horrible Scandal of Religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to Rebellion into the minds of Christians And now Sir I beseech you to consider things seriously and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole Religion and Church is condemned as teaching Treason and Rebellion and this only for a few private mens Writings so generally abhorred by our selves Prot. All I can say hereto is that for as much as concerns my self I will be no longer an accuser of your Church in this matter Proceed therefore if you please to the other following Points 4. Of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation §. 67. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine opposed by all Sectaries regards the Holy Eucharist Their rage against the former is indeed greater because interest is more concerned in it but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful Mystery by their outward Senses which Catholics instructed by Holy Fathers tell them are not to be believed here In the Eucharist the first matter of Dispute and ground of the rest is the Catholic Doctrine touching the Real Presence of our Lords Body on the Altar after Consecration of the Symbole thus declared in the Council of Trent I prosess that in the most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is present truly and substantially the Body and the Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of our Lord Iesus Christ And that there is made a Conversion of the whole Substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole substance of the Wine into his Blood Which Conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation This Article of our Belief is to us solidly established on the Words of Institution THIS IS MY BODY which Words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three Evangelists and the Apostle Saint Paul therefore we believe following universal Tradition that our Lord sincerely meant as he spake and because we believe so we are hated Prot. But how can you expect that we should assent hereto since our Senses contradict it §. 68. Cath. You cannot say however that our Senses are deceived for in this great Mystery they have a right perception of their proper Objects to wit Colour Extention Figure c. Neither I suppose will you say that the judgment which Reason from the Senses collects is always infallible For if so then for example our Saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer Man And the Angels appearing to Lot and his daughters no Angels but meer men for so would Reason relying on the outward Senses have judged Prot. in these examples Divine Revelation expresly teaches the contrary Cath. Then if in the present case you were assured by Divine Revelation that God by a supernatural Power did on the Priests consecrating the Symbols produce a real Change of the Outward Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ you would believe God against your Senses Prot. I should no doubt §. 69. Cath. Can you have a greater assurance hereof then the express Words of Christ literally understood by the Constant Tradition of all Churches in all ages Prot. Such an assurance
be their own she must cancel the whole Scripture if she would affirm that without a good life and Holiness we may see God Or if she would affirm that God has not obliged himself by a world of Promises to reward our Good Works with Happiness infinitely exceeding the value of them But withal to preserve in our hearts that most essential virtue of our Christian Professor Humility She further instructs us that our Works as Merits are the pure free Gifts of God and effects of his meer Grace which alone affords them all their value That they are accepted and rewarded by God only for the Merits of Iesus Christ. Yea further that our Natural Corruption still remaining and mingling it self in our best actions we can have no assurance that they are indeed such as God has promised to reward And however that though we now stand yet we have no assurance that we shall not fall In a word the whole Substance of her Doctrine touching the present Subject directs us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling and when we have done all we can to acknowledg our selves unprofitable Servants having only done our duty if we have indeed done that and consequently if God do reward us it is to be ascribed to his own free Goodness and Grace in which alone we place our trust and not at all in our own imperfect Merits §. 90. And now Sir judg whether the Roman Church teaching these Doctrines can with any shew be accused or suspected to have a design to nourish Spiritual Pride in her Children and whether the first contrivers of Schism had reason to publish to the world as the principal ground of their rupture this Article of Iustification and Good Works and in opposition to her to make the people believe that the Faith by which they are to be justified must be a strong resolute Fancy of their Election and an assurance of their Salvation that a holy life has no influence therein yea that Good Works do rather harm then good and lastly that this monstrous kind of new invented Faith once had can never be lost again nor their right to heaven prejudiced by never so many or never so heynous crimes Among them there is no working our Salvation with fear and trembling Assurance of Salvation in them annihilates the great Christian vertue of Hope This in the midst of a world of Sins they will be assured of Salvation to which Assurance Catholics dare not pretend in the midst of all their Mortifications Humiliations and assiduous Devotions Since therefore Sir you are so afraid of Pride as indeed we have all reason to be be you the Iudg which of these Parties affords you best means to avoid it and so best deserves your choice Prot. A short consideration will serve the turn for that purpose Be pleased to proceed 11. Of Invocation of Saints §. 91. The next Point censured by you is the Churches Doctrine touching Invocation of Saints thus expressed in the Council of Trent It is good and profitable to call upon the Saints and to have recourse to their prayers aid and assistance whereby to obtain from God many benefits by the Merits of his Son Iesus Christ who is our Redeemer and Saviour In this Point I shall briefly offer to you these considerations 1. That it is a general Tradition of Gods Church from the begining and not contradicted by sober Protestants that glorified Saints do incessantly Pray for the Militant Church on earth 2. It is unquestionable that we may desire to receive benefit in particular by such their Prayers 3. That it contradicts all reason and modesty in our Adversaries to charge the addressing our Petitions to them for that purpose with the horrible crime of Idolatry since we do no otherwise beg the Intercession of Saints then we do that of our sinful Brethren alive acknowledging God alone to be the Author and fountain of all good §. 92. Hence it follows that the worst title that malice it self can with any shew of reason affix to this our Practice is that it may be esteemed superfluous in case it can be demonstrated that Saints at such a distance cannot hear nor know our Requests in particular Yet neither would this enervate the Churches Doctrine or Practice which by eminent Divines is proved to be laudable and profitable though they did not always hear us neither indeed has the Church any where determined her Belief that they do so But lastly if it be the Church her self and not some private Catholic Writers that you would question about this Subject observe that in her public Liturgy and Mass celebrated on all the Feasts of Saints she continually addresses her Petitions directly to God alone desiring him to grant us such special Blessings by the Intercession of such and such Saints Now it cannot be doubted but that Charity and mutual assistance among fellow members of the same Body is very acceptable to God whensoever and wheresoever performed We are taught to beleive a Communion of Saints we doubt not of their Charity to us our Communion therefore with them must be to testify our joy for their Happiness and our assurance that their Intercessions for us are more prevalent with God then the Prayers of our living imperfect Brethren Therefore since we may and ought on occasions to beg these and to desire God to hear them for our good much rather surely ought we to do the same with regard to the glorified Saints I leave it therefore to your conscience whether you can judg that a separation from Gods Church on this quarrel can be justified Prot. At least I shall never hereafter impute Idolatry to her for this Practice 12. Of Veneration of Images and Relics of Saints §. 93. Cath. The next Point of Catholic Doctrine and which has an affinity with the last regards the Veneration due to Holy Images and Relics which is equally censured by Protestants It is thus expressed in the Confession of Faith set down by Pope Pius the fourth I do most firmly assert that the Images of Christ of the Virgin-Mother of God as likewise of other Saints are to be had and retained and due honour and Veneration to be given to them and also to their Relics §. 94. Now to justify the use which Catholics make of Images the Veneration due to them and that such Veneration is most unjustly and calumniously by some Protestants interpreted to be Idolatry will be no hard task to perform For common reason and the experience of all mankind instruct us that men do naturally desire and delight to think or talk oft on such things past or persons absent from whom they have received some Signal benefit and much more if they expect an addition of like benefits But besides this if the very thinking or speaking of them with affection be it self a Duty advantagious to us and conducing to our happiness we will thank any person and we will