aunswer The one is as reasonable as the other Although the modestie and the myldenes of the Emperour Ferdinande Apolog. be so greate that he can beare this because peraduenture he vnderstandeth not the Popes packing yet ought not the Pope of his holynes to offer him that wrong nor to claime as his own an other mans ryght A lykelie mater Confut. .313 that the Emperour should not vnderstand the packinges if anie be made of the Pope hauing a wise Councell assisting him and the worlde round about sownding of heretiks bokes and practises him selfe also hauing as ye will not I thinke denie as muche iudgement and discretion as your ministers of whom yet euerie one maketh himselfe to know much of the Popes packing and goeth with his fardell about him and like a spiritual pedler setteth foorth his smal wares in open pulpittes and emong all other pointes vttereth those of the Popes behauiour as most gay geare for the brothers and sisters Note besides this howe artificiallie they praise the Emperour for his modesty and mildnes because say they peraduenture he vnderstaÌ„deth not the Popes packing Thinke ye then that if without peraduenture he vnderstande it not that the hearing thereof doth proue a mildnes to be in him So may ye praise a deafe man for his meekenesse when that not hearing the euil wordes that are spoken against him he is neuer moued or troubled with them If so be they whom God hath placed in greatest dignitie Apolog. did see and perceaue these mens practises how Christes commaundementes be despised by them c. no doubt they would neuer so quiâ—â—lie suffer them selues neither to be disdayned after such a proude sorte nor so dispitefullie to be scorned and aâ—used by them No doubt Confut. 32â— but if you for your no litle wit or learning were worthie to be in any great dignitie you should quicklie perceyue that the Princes and Rulers of the world haue and do vnderstande as much of the state of Religion as any of the Brotherhood either because they are wise of them selues and are set in an high place from which they may better see what is done in the worlde than other of base degree either because Kings and Princes haue commonly about them either wise CouÌ„celers to instruct them of all things Or Courtly Discoursers which will be ignorant of nothing Or dissolute lyuers which are ready to speake against the Auncient faith for loue of the late Gospels libertie and noueltie Ireneus often tymes appealed to the oldest Churches Apolog. which had bene neerest Christes tyme and which it was hard to beleue had erred but why at this day is not yâ— coÌ„mon respect consideratioÌ„ had See how properly you wil haue appeale made to the oldest Churches Confut. â—23 which abaÌ„doÌ„ the Church of Rome which was in S. Ireneê° time so truly the chief that vnto it as he saith al Churches must resort because of the greater priÌ„cipality Lib. 3. c. 3. and which at this day is without all question the oldest and from which you haue so strayed vnto seeking of the ouldest Churches that falling vpon a young congregation of three score yeare olde at the most ye passe not very much vpon anye church new or olde but onely the pure and plaine scripture For somuch as we were ascertened of Godes wil Apolog. and compted it a wickednes to be carefull and ouercoÌ„med about the iudgments of mortall men we could no longer stand taking aduise with flesh and blood Haue ye receued your Gospel by reuelatioÌ„ Confuâ— .317 as S. Paul saith of himself that he did Are you the Apostles of Christ neyther throughe man neither from man If ye will be ashamed of such arrogancie then haue you to confesse that ye haue learned the Ghospel of â—od at the mouth of men If ye wil stil glory in it and neuer blush then walke as ye are and shew vs your Reuelation or tell what contrary Aduertisement you haue receiued why ye should not throughly follow their iudgementes of whom ye receiued the Ghospel at the beginning Iohn Chrysostome Apolog. although the Emperoure Constantius coÌ„maunded him by â—o wer sundrie letters to come to the Arrians coâ—ncel yet kept he him selfe at home â—â—ill How is the Prince then Supreame head Confut. 3â—â— Or how doe you bring S. Chrysostomes example for defence of your fact For if the Kynge be chiefe Gouernour in all causes spirituall and temporall surely he was no good and obedient subiecte whiche would not come at fowre times sending for On the other side if ye dare reproue S. Chrysostome for his not yelding to the supreme powres commaundement what meant you to alleage S. Chrysostome in defence of your doings allowing not the fact of S. Chrysostom The third Chapiter conteining the lies that are made in telling of Stories with Folies in crediting of vaine tales Were al things then pure and holy in Rome Apolog. when Iohane a woman rather of perfit age thaÌ„ of perfit lyfe was Pope there and bare her selfe as the head of the Church And after that for two whole yeres in that holy See thee had played the naughtie packe at laâ—t going in Procession aboute the Citie in the syght of all the Cardinalles and Bishops fell in trauaile openly in the stretes THere was neuer any such woman Pope in Rome Confut. .154 Anastasius an historiographer of that time and master of the Popes Librarie whiche was himselfe present at the creations of Sergius 3. Leo 4. Benedictus 3. and other Popes after them maketh no mention of any such And yet the makers of this woman Pope â–ª do place her â–ª betwene Leo 4. and Benedoctus 3. Other historiographers also both old and late of the beste sorte make no accompte of her Then he that telleth the tale of thiâ— Pope Iohane telleth it with such probabâ—litie that he must be of smal wit and discretion which should geaue anie credite vnto it For he speaketh firste by heare saie onelie Then he telleth that she was an Englishe woman borne at Magunce and Magunce is high Doutchelande Further he saith that she was brought to Athenes by a louer of hers And therefore by likelyhood she was more than a Childe Nowe what should she doe at Athenes but lerne a Gods name And Athenes at that time was not for learnyng as being altogether barbarous And yet she not onlie learned but profited also in diuerse sciencies and so profited that none was found to be compared with her And yet it is 〈◊〉 to saie whether women in mens 〈◊〉 and kepte purposelie for the 〈◊〉 of theyr Louers should haue the 〈◊〉 the will the wit the leisure the grace to passe all other of the Vniâ—rsitie But let the tale goe forwardes How came she to Rome by what faâ—ur by what hope by what louers cost◠〈◊〉 fancie Well this is not told but as â—hough that there were no more in the 〈◊〉 but that
Confut. For the holy doctours doe note two kindes of perfections The one of the waie in which we walke August de pâ—cca meâ—â—tis The other of the Countrie to which we goe etremiss lib. 2â— C 13. The one of this life the â—ther of the life to come The one coÌ„sisting in deniyng coÌ„sent vnto coÌ„cupisceÌ„ces notwithstanding we feele manie of themâ—â— the other consisting in a perfite peace of body and soule without any motion to euill To fulfil the lawe so that no motion of euill come to our thoughtes it is for an other worlde but not to obey the Concupiscencies that is such a perfection as many in this life doe come vnto and that is a fulfilling of the lawe of God in respect of our pilgrimage Paul sharply rebuked Peter Apolog Barnabas departed from Paul c. Did Catholike Fathers striued one against an other Ergo we should not be so greatly noted for dissensions which are fouÌ„d amoÌ„g vs. The Apostles and holy Fathers haue so striued Conâ—ut â—39 that they kept vnitie of faith and religion And they were not so set that they would liue and dye in the quarel But your Strifes are in principal maters of ReligioÌ„ aÌ„d you be so obstinat eche of you in his opinion that no Authoritie shal make yow geue ouer and yelde which is not so emonge the Catholikes whereas al are obedient vnto one head Iustine the Martyr is witnes Apolog. that al Christians were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Godlesse Ergo this ought not to trouble vs that they cal vs wicked and vngodly men The cause is not like Confutiâ—â—tion 151. For if infidels speake euil of vs it is no mater because they are not our Ordinaries or Iudges But wheÌ„ the Catholiks froÌ„ whoÌ„ ye receued the faith and without whom ye can not be sure of the Articles of your faith wheÌ„ these that haue beÌ„ aÌ„d shuld be your Fathers and Rulers doe condemne your deedes it should be a very simple coÌ„fort vnto yow that Infidels of olde tyme did speake against Christians Of the same kind of argument it is where you say Haman accused the Iewes as a people that vsed certaine new lawes Fol. 228. The AtheniaÌ„s said to S. Paul may we know what new doctrine this is Celsus writing of purpose against Christ what saith he hath God after so many ages now aâ— last so late bethought him selfe Eusebius writeth that ChristiaÌ„ religion was called new and strainge Ergo tâ—â—y bâ— wicked mâ—n spiteful against the religiâ—â—â— of God which cal vs new fangled These arguments are naught For the testimonie of Infidels against Christianâ— is nothing worth but the Sentence olde Catholikes vpon newfangled Protestantes hath much authority in it Paul the Apostle found faults falles cueÌ„ in the prime chief of the Gospel Apolog. so that he was coÌ„pelled to write sharply to the Galathians Corinthians Ergo the Church may faile and goe amisse I answer Confut. 200. faults may be coÌ„mitted either in lifeâ— either in faith Againe particular churches may erre both in life and faith The Church of Rome may erre in life but neuer in faith because the whole church then shuld be deceiued as which is bouÌ„d to obey the chief pastor like as he is priÌ„cipally bouÌ„d to feed and instruct it But this is impossible Mat. 16. Ioa. n 14. the ê“mises of God staÌ„ding aÌ„d the preseÌ„ce of the Holyghost assistiÌ„g it Ergo though S. Paul fouÌ„d errors in particular Churches this caÌ„not iÌ„port that the whol Church may be deceued or that One Church of Rome vpoÌ„ the safty and trust of which the helth of the whole depeÌ„deth Pighius findeth fault with many abuses brought in Apolog. eueÌ„ into yâ— very Masse GersoÌ„ coÌ„plaineth of a nuÌ„bre of most fond ceremonies Ergo the Church may erre You might wel say Confut. 206. Ergo a particular Church may erre in a ceremony or suche like thing about the Masse it self But this is nothing to the purpose to proue that the whole Church may erre or that the chief Church of al which is in Rome may err in faith Now as Pighius fouÌ„d fault with abuses so haue the Heades of the Churches geueÌ„ charge Sess. 6. that thei shuld be amended As in the very last CouÌ„cel at TreÌ„t By which you may perceiue that although fauts be fouÌ„d in the church yet ar they not alowed generally of the Church Bernard was no heretike Apolog. he had not forsaken yâ— Catholike Church yet neuerthelesse he did not let to cal the Bishops that then were deceiuers begylers aâ—â—â— Pilats Ergo the Church may erre As he letted not to cal som deceuers Confutation .209 etâ— so he testifieth for other that they weâ—â— good and faithful Officers in the Church As Martianus the Cardinal and Gaufriâ— Carnotensis Bernard de consideratioÌ„e both of them Legates oâ— the Pope the one into Dacia and the other into Aquitania He prayseth also Eugenius the Pope excedingly and yet without flaterie Whereby it is easy to perceaue that all were not like them whome he reproueth And therefore the whole Churche was not deceiued though some were Pilates and not Prelates An other answer is that this Obiection doth not proue errour in faith of which the question is but of maners which God amend and which hurt not the good men no more than the chaffe and strawe doth the pure corne The Grekes haue neyther priuate Masse Apologâ— nor mangled Sacramentes nor purgatories nor pardons Ergo they holde a still numbre of those thinges which they receiued from the Apostles Confutâ— 267. First the antecedent is starke false Then concerning the Argument it is not only false but folishe also For it concludeth an Affirmatiue of one kind of a plaine and pure Negatiue of an other as if a man would say The Church of Englande hath neither Crosses in their churches neither order of Monastical life in their Religion neither Latine tongue lightes or ornameÌ„ts in their Seruice Er go it holdeth stil a nuÌ„ber of those things which it receiued of S. Austin the Monk It is madnes to think yâ— the Holygost taketh his flight froÌ„ a general CouÌ„cel to â—un to Rome Apolog. Ergo yâ— Pope may erre Confut. 281. It is madnes in dede so to think And wher then had you the wit to imagin it For what place caÌ„ you apoint to a Spirit and especially what boundes vnto God Beware of it least whiles ye seke so gredily to flout your aduersary ye blaspheme in your foule termes and Ironies the holy Ghost our Creatour Item Apolo what needed so many Bishops with so greate charges so far iourneis haue assembled theyr conuocation at Trident if the Bishop of Rome must determine al maters Ergo he may erre If you had bene so obedient Confut. 281. or if other were so wise as they should be General Councels should
not neede But because the world is now come to that Infirmity aÌ„d curiositie that maters must be defended against al obiections of heretikes and brought againe vnto examination after they haue ben already determined and beleued therefore hath the charitie and wisedom of the Popeâ— stoode to the charges of calling a general Councell which facte of his doth not proue that he may erre which the holy Ghost wil not suffer for his presence sake in the Church but that he doth so reasonably and discreetly order those maters that shal concerne our Faith that he wil not erre as much as mans wit can prouide but haue also the Aduise Consent and Iudgement of other which are of most authoritie and lerning in the Church of Christ. Let the Bishope of Rome alone Apol. be aboue al Councells Ergo one parte is greater than the whole No Syr Confut. 284 not parte greater than the whole but parte shall be greater than parte and one member worthier than an other The bodie and heade togeather make the whole and take away the head ye take away a parte of the whole Ye can not therfore make a diuisioÌ„ of the church into the whole and the heade but into the head and the reast of the partes of the whole And then it is no absurditie at all that the heade should be greater in price and honor than al the other members beside Athanasius denied to come to yâ— councell at Cesarea Apolog. Athanasius went away from the CouÌ„cell at Syrmium IhoÌ„ Chrysostom kept himself at home although the Emperour commaunded him to come to the Arrians Councel Maximus and Paphnutius depaâ—ted from the Councell at Palestine The Bishops of the East would not come to the Councel of Heretiks named Patropassians Paulinus and many others moe refused to come to the CouÌ„cell at Milane Ergo we are not to be blamed for not comming to the Councel at Trent You mutiply examples al in vaine Confut. 293. aÌ„d there is no proportion at al betwene the holy Fathers constancy and your disobedieÌ„ce For they refused to be at the commaundent of heretikes and their Fauourers but you contempne the lawfull Authority of Catholike Bishops If ye could truly say it that the Fathers gathered of late at Trent were ArriaÌ„s PatropassiaÌ„s or heretikes of any sort then might you laufully vse the examples of Athanasius Chrysostome Maximus Paphnutius and other But for as much as it is impossible that they could be heretikes which held no strainge and singular opinioÌ„s contrary to the Catholike coÌ„mon and receiued faith in the whole world you haue no excuse left for your pride aÌ„d disobedieÌ„ce That Cathalike Bishopes haue refused to come to the conspiracies of heretikes ye neuer neede to haue proued it But if ye can shew by any example that euer any good man yet did refuse to come to a CouÌ„cel lawfully called by the Pope then may that example make for you but there is none suche to be founde None of vs can be suffered to sit in yâ— Councell Apolog. The Popes Legats Patriarchs Archebishopes Bishopes and Abbates do conspire togeather sit alone by them selues and haue power alone to geue theyâ— consente And they wil haue al theyr opinions to be iudged at the will and pleasure of the Pope Princes and Embassadoures are but vsed as mocking stockes Ergo leâ—â—e not the wise and good maruaile if we haue those rather to sit at home then to iourney to the Conucel The Apostles neuer made such argumentes Confut. 294 And you if ye had in dede the holy ghost and if ye were chosen vesselles to cary the name of God abrode ye would neuer so childishely either without causâ— feare or if ye had a iust cause complainâ— and whine that you shal not sit whenâ— you come to the general Councel or that then ye shal haue a number of Bishopeâ— and Abbates against you or that al shalâ— be referred to the Pope or that they wilâ— mocke you if ye goe thither For none of all these thinges should haue letted you from telling your opinionâ— and for the rest you should haue referred al to the will of God what successe your words should haue had But either ye be so prowde that except you maie be of the chiefest you wil not come into the presence of reuereÌ„d and lerned Fathers or ye be so fainteharted that except the Prince be on your syde ye dare non trust the warrant of a safeconduct A Christian Prince hath the charge of both tables committed vnto him Apolog. Ergo not only temporal maters but Ecclesiastical also pertaine to his office He hath the Charge of both tables so far foorth Confut. .303 that he must defend the external geauing of due honour vnto God and outwarde exhibiting of charitie towards our neighbour But to offer vp Sacrifice to minister Sacramentes or to iudge of Murder Adultery Theft or any thing that is coÌ„mitted only in hart hath he any power Euery man seeth that worldly Princes meddle not with suche maters And therefore theyr charge is baser and narower thaÌ„ the charge of Bishopes and Priestes whom God hath appointed to be his Officers in the inward Courte of Conscience The prophets of God coÌ„maunded the Kinges to breake doune altars of Idols Apolog. and to write out the books of yâ— Law for them selues Ergo Ecclesiastical maters perteine to the iurisdiction of Kinges You see Confut. 303. then that the Princes are not Supreme but that betwene them and God the Prophete is the greater Officer For the Prophets coÌ„mauÌ„d the priÌ„ces obey The Prophets geaue charge the princes doe execute it The prophetes declare what an Idol is the Princes destroie it according to the prophetes instruction Moyses â— Ciuile Magistrate recieued from God Apolog. and delyuered to the people al the order for religion and sacrifices and gaue Aaron a sore rebuke for making the golden calfe Ergo ecclesiastical matters perteyne to the office of princes This example agreeth not Confut. 05. because Moyses was not a Ciuile magistrate only but also a priest And he was made also by God the supreme gouernour and captaine ouer al the number of the children of Israel were they temporal or Spiritual persons in figure of Christ. If ye can shew that our Sauiour left any such power vnto any king in the world and that his Apostles were not immediatly next vnto hiÌ„ the chiefe gouernors of his church then shal that temporal King haue the power whach ye labour to geaue him Iosue receyued commaundementes towchinge Religion and the seruice of God Apolog. Ergo Ecclesiasticall maters perteyne to theyr Iurisdiction He receyued commaundement Confut. 305. to meditate in the boke of the law which God had geauen by Moyses and to keepe it But this was so sar of from a Supremacy in maters Ecclesiasticall that it is expressly sayd in the boke of Numeri Cap. 17. that Eleazar the
ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies that the greatest papist in the world would not aske more fauor in the questioÌ„ aÌ„d cause of theÌ„ First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashioÌ„ it is not vaine If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani it is not vaine If it be but a particular Ceremony of one couÌ„trie and be not agaiÌ„st the faith or good maners it is not vaine Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life it is not vaine By so many waies and for so many causes a ceremony maie wel continue as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin Epi. 119. c. 18. 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies as though he would haue as few as you What Sacrament haue you about which ye doe occupie oile What thinke you of the fast of lent What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide What vse haue you of any Octaues Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies he maketh mentioÌ„ in the foresaied Epistle and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded Gregory c. if the Church saieth he shall depend vppon one man Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground Ye belie him shamfully he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestaÌ„t may think this impossible that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye Let him seeke then if he be learned and iudge by his owne senses whether any such proposition is ther to be found But is there not a like vnto it Ye as so like as Rome is to Constantinople or Gregorie S. Peters successour to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike For if a man should seeke for his life to find in that epistle but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th'vnlerned sake Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome coÌ„plaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour declaring good causes aÌ„d reasons why such presumptioÌ„ should not be suffred Emong other he maketh this argument Lib. 4. epist. 3â— Surely we haue knoweÌ„ manie Prelats of the Church of CoÌ„staÌ„tinople to haue falleÌ„ into the goulfe of heresie and to haue ben not only heretiks but archeheretikes also Nowe for example he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius then bringeth he in therevpon this conclusion If therefore in that church vndoubtedly of Constantinople anie pul vnto himself that name of Vniuersal Bishope ergo which hath ben the iudgement of all good men the whole church which God forbid falleth froÌ„ her state wheÌ„ he falleth which is called Vniuersall An excellent argument vndoubtedly For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at CoÌ„staÌ„tinople that see hauing no priuilege of coÌ„tinuing stil in the right faith as appereth by the archeheretikes which sate ther and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope this one absurditie grauÌ„ted a thousand would folow and that one Bishoppe erring all the whole Church should go a straie Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasioÌ„ of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie And wher find we here that if the church depeÌ„d vpon one maÌ„ â–ª it must at once fal doune to the ground Wil they yet defend theyr lying Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers â—s the Church aÌ„d that Church al one in coÌ„cluding Is depeÌ„ding vpon one man and that man al a like The successor of S. Peter and Bishop in that chaire in which neuer yet was fouÌ„d any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin is he al one with a Bishope of ConstaÌ„tinople â–ª which neither succedeth any Apostle and hath bene a defender of heresies let vs see now therfore whether you wil coÌ„fesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him The bishâ—ps sayth Bernard who now haue yâ— charge of Gods church Apolog. ar not teachers but deceauers they are not feders but begilers thei are not prelats but pilates These words spake Bernard of yâ— B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al of yâ— other Bishops likwise which then had the place of gouernement How then Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope because of those faâ—ltes which he fouÌ„d If he did why taried he in his moÌ„kes cote vnto his death If he did not what vnwise meÌ„ be you to for sake the Church for euil maners sake But coÌ„sider further WhoÌ„ called he deceauers â–ª begâ—â—ers pilats Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church froÌ„ the Pope dounward Or spake he of some certain only If he noted but some certain aÌ„d â—heÌ„ worthely those other some which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it and so through wretched foly depart out of it If he spake generally of al then wil I coÌ„fesse that ye are not so much to be blamed for your departing from that Church nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose But because I am sure this is false therefore I charge you and blame you How proue I this I proue it by those very bookes in which as you saie the foresaid wordes against the Pope and Bishopes are For concerning Eugenius him selfe he saieth in the third boke after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome Haec ad te Berna de CoÌ„s lib â–ª 3 noÌ„ de te scribo I writ this vnto thee not of thee And immediatly he declareth by example how Eugenius refused bagges of monie which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop by likelyhode notwithstaÌ„ding his mony And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous if he should haue nothing rewarded them Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this And I ê™ S. Bernard doe tell it so muche the more gladly by how much thou hearest it the more greauously The Pope theâ— him selfe was none of those deceauers begilers or pilates whom you mention Furth then were al the Cardinalles and Bishops deceiuers c. No neither al they as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke by the exaÌ„ples of two great Legats The one was Cardinal Martine Cardinal Martin which being sent legate into Dacia a countrie ful of gold and siluer returned yet so poore that for lacke of mony and horses he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse without mention making of any mater to be done for it Yet the legat aÌ„d Cardinal Martin was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome but the bishop of Florence
marie were much greater After which maner a very discreet and sadde Merchante of London might saie vnto you that for greate good cause Apology wold be so much ouerseen mary aut integra percipiant aut ab integris arceantur either saieth he let them receaue the whole De cons. dist â— caâ— CoÌ„peri eihter let theÌ„ be kept from the whole Of receiuing therefore he speaketh not of geuing Why is it not al in a maner one and can both be receiued except both be geuen No thei cannot But who shal constraine the Priest to geue both Or who shal coÌ„pel the Bishopes whom God hath set to gouerne his church who shal compel theÌ„ to make a law that both be geaueÌ„ For as they sâ—al see it expedient for the present state of the peple ouer which thei haue authority so may they to some geue both to some geue one to some in forme of bread to other in forme of wine aÌ„d some also they may kepe froÌ„ receiuing in anie kind at al like as by their discretion they shal see the diuersity of cases to require And if ye could iÌ„pugne this by any means yet could ye not iÌ„pugn it by Gelasiê° aÌ„d ê“ue by him that both kinds ought to be geueÌ„ SecoÌ„dly I note against you that neither the peoples receiuing in both is proued by Gelasius to be of absolute necessity vnder peril of committing sacrilege For he speketh but of one certain kiÌ„d of persons How proue I that By his own words For in his coÌ„muandement that they which were noted vnto him should either receiue the whole or abstain froÌ„ the whole he laieth in this cause betwen QuoniaÌ„ nescio c. Because they be staid with a superstitioÌ„ I caÌ„ not tel what ergo take superstitioÌ„ awaie and the case of the Receiuer is altered And he doth not forbid a vertuouse and right beleuing maÌ„ to receiue in one kind vpoÌ„ good coÌ„sideratioÌ„s Shew ye now â–ª that the sacrament ought to be geaueÌ„ in both kinds â–ª aÌ„d that some sorte of people might not receiue vnder one alone or confesse that ye haue made a duble lie vpon Gelasius What can be sayd more plainly then that which Ambrose saith Apolog. bread and wine remaine stil the same they were before and yet are chaynged into an other thing As plaine as he speaketh Confut. 94. you vnderstand him not and if you do because nothing can be saied more plaine then doe ye abuse him most shamefully The beginning of the sentence or periode out of whiche you take certaine wordes for your purpose Lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 4. is this in englishe If there be so great power in the word of our Lord Iesus that thinges which were not should begin to be how muche more is it effectual and workinge vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur that thinges which were be and be chaunged into an other thing Vpon the construction of which latine wordes our present question consisteth The Apologie coÌ„strueth thus â–ª vt that vnderstaÌ„d say they â–ª panis vinuÌ„ bread and wine Sint quae erant should remaine styll the same they were before coÌ„mutentur in aliud and should be chaunged into an other thing Now the true interpretatioÌ„ is thus to be made Vt quae erant that the thinges whiche were Sint be in aliud commutentur and be chaunged into an other So that quae eraÌ„t is nominatiue case to the verbe sint and not panis vinuÌ„ as the Apologie faineth For in S. Ambrose argument there is this antithesis or opposition from not being to being and from being to an other being As if God hath made nothing somewhat muche more of somewhat he may make another thiÌ„g Before the world began the Heauens waters and Earth had no existance or being at al. God spake the word and so of nothing he made theÌ„ to haue a beginning and being but bread had a being when it was yet vnconsecrated and after the wordes of consecraâ—â—on it keepeth stil a being because it is not annihilated and vtterly made nothing yet it keepeth not still the same being it had before because it is no more natural bread but is turned by the omnipotencie of Gods worde into the bodie of Christe As in example of the meate whiche we eate be it fishe or fleash it had a being in it selfe before we did eate it â–ª anâ— after it is once digested it hath a being for we are not fedde with nothing and our meates are not annihilated in vs but conuerted into our bodily substance yet they keepe not the same being whiche they had before For then should theyr bodies which fed alwaies vpon veale mutton capons wodcockes c. consist not of mans fleash but of calueflesh shepes flesh c. And such men were quickely to be set to schole or reformed in theyr opinion least by much vsing of the foresayd meates they might proue in theyr own concepte as wise as Calues Capons or Wodcockes This example wel considered it will appeere that S. Ambrose saieth right lie that quae erant sint the things which were keepe a being as bread dothe when it is consecrated but not as the Apologie abuseth S. Ambrose that Sint quae erant they should remaine styll the same they were before For bread is conuerted by consecration into the bodye of Christe and so keepeth styll a being but not the same whiche it had before Cyrill saieth Apolog. when we come to receiue these mysteries all grosse Imaginations must quite be banished Grosse Imaginations in S. Cyrill Confut. 107. doe signifie not the Catholique beliefe of the Faithfull whiche confesse them selues to receiue vnder the forme of bread perfecte God and perfecte man One Iesus Christe but the carnall thoughtes and opinions of Nestorius and lyke Heretiques whiche diuide Christe that is but one and imagine that the Blessed Virgine was Mother of Christ man not of the worde God as though the manhoode had anie personall subsistence separate from the Godheade Of whiche false principle it woulde folow that the bodie of Christ which Christians receiue in the Sacrament should be the bodie of a pure man And therforâ— he inueigheth against him and saieth Num hominis comestionem c â–ª what doest thou pronounce this ouâ— Sacrament to be the eating of a man and doest thou dryue irreuereÌ„tly the mind of the faithful to grosse imaginations c. Now the Catholikes which beleue that they receiue not the fleash of a bare man which could not but minister verie carnal and grosse thoughtes but the fleash of God and man that by consideration of the presence of suche 〈◊〉 maiestie our vnderstaÌ„dings should yeldâ— vnto his wordes by faith and put awaie all carnall Imaginations concerning the mysteries iudge you whether we be giltie of grosse imaginations and whether you haue rightlie vnderstanded S. Cyrill or no. As Chrysostome very aptly writeth Apolog. we say that the