Nouatus and such other found in ould nastie monuments If vppon her now for pittie you will pull the Waldesian habitte spokeÌ„ of in the former chapter the beggars coate I meane represeÌ„ting with partie coloured patches the peeces of her coÌ„stitution and lace it with the ragges you find in Illyricus it will be very trimme But how soeuer you may finde some ragges in Antiquitie it is still euident that after a busie search made by all your deuines into libraries and recordes you are not able to prudence a continuall succession of that kinde of men wherof you are or of that whereof VValdo was from waldo vpwardes to the Apostles I doe not saie a Catholique or vniuersall succession of them but a succession onlie though neuer so small you haue not in euery age a Nation nor one Diocese which were verie litle nor so much such is your beggarie as one man Much more vnpossible is it for you to produce a succession Catholique or vniuersall in that sort that in euerie age and euerie yeere since the Apostles it hath ben common to many Nations which is the condition of the true Church of God 9. You answeare againe and learnedlie as you thinke that in Fundamentall pointes the Romans were Protestant and therfore are well alleaged Are the negatiue propositions in the Bible Gods words aÌ„d de fide or wâ—ll you haue them all blotted out to satisfie the demaund though they were otherwise in not-Fundamentall Or as others cut out the distinction in Affirmatiues they were yours in Negatiues they were not VVhich distinction is laid in the way to catch woodcockes but hindereth not the course of our argument For the Roman Catholique holding those pointes which he doth is noe Protestant nor of the religion currant now a dayes among you And the Protestant is no Roman Catholique his Religion is not that which is currant in Italie in Spaine and other places vnited to the See of Rome wherfore in assigning Roman Catholiques you do not assigne a Protestant succession wheras the thing demaunded is a Protestant succession If I had ben to dispute with the VValdenses in Bohemia I would haue exacted the like proofe for the Religion currant among them that is as I haue tould you many tymes a companie of men of the religion currant now in England wherof some haue succeded others and this must haue bene euer since the Apostles daies if the successioÌ„ be continuall since that tyme. Wee doe not Demaund of you whether wee haue à succession in our Church that wee demaund of you is a succession of your owne of Protestantes not of Papistes of men professing the religion which you doe Shewe this succession produce your euidence to prooue that such men haue bene in all ages and then wee will examine your fundamentalles giuing you time till then for to thinke how many and which they be for assure your selues the common people doe perceaue your vnsufficiencie in answering to the demaund which you cannot flie without crossing and contradicting your owne selues For I aske you is a Papist a Protestant in religion you answeare no. I demaund againe giue me the Protestant succession the Church Protestant of former ages You answeare the Papistes succession was the Protestant succession and the Papisticall Church was the Church Protestant By which answeare graunting and affirming the Papisticall succession and Church to be the Protestant succession and Church you doe graunt and affirme a Papist to be a Protestant which before you had denied and still doe They see also that a Pelagian a Luciferian an Arian or any other hereticke may defend himselfe as you doe for each of them held the true religioÌ„ in part each held some affirmatiues and was negatiue as you speake in other thinges and each pretended that he did not mistake in fundamentalles 10. And wheras you say that you erre not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talles I answeare first that you speake at raÌ„dome aÌ„d by coÌ„iecture mearlie for to this daie you know not which all the fundamentalles are and therfore cannot be certaine whether you beleeue euerie one of them or doe not I answeare secondlie that the point of iustification is the ground and the soule of your religion and you mistake in that and contradict the scripture directlie in it and therefore erre fundamentallie You teach also that the Catholique Church may erre in matters of diuine faith which is a grosse fundamentall errour You denie the reall presence and holie sacrifice in the Masse which is likewise a fundamentall errour And by these and such like you are diuided from the Catholique and so fundamentallie different and diuided Neither is it any matter whether these and the like erroures be expressed in propositions affirmatiue or negatiue an Athyest by reason of one negation is of No Religion as they may be either way for by negatiue errours a man may be an Hereticke Turke Iew or Athiest according to the verities which in his errours he doth contradict To conclude it is cleare that these are shiftes to delaie tyme and to deceaue fooles for the thing wee demaund is a Catalogue of Protestant men such as in England you are of men holding those affirmatiues together with those negatiues which you do hould of men consenting with you in your religion and beleefe entirelie The like argument I would make against the Waldenses Hussites or any other for a man may beleeue the Trinity or the Creede with others and yet differ in ReligioÌ„ as we and you do whether the thinges be called fundamentall or be not called so for wee care not how you call theÌ„ of men which without anie tricke distinction paring of or adding to theÌ„ may flatlie be said to be of the religion ow curraÌ„t there in England of such finallie as being looked into thoroughlie and beheld round about are absolutlie Protestantes or men of your religion Produce the Catalogue of these men let your euidence come to light 11. Your men in the begining wanting companie and disliking the religion of the Waldenses and Hussittes would faine haue shaked handes with the Grecians and made an offer but they were instantlie refused and shaken of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae as the world doth well know by their Censure in print euerie where You haue tould mee since and vnskillfullie that the Ethiopians are of your religion being demauÌ„ded proofe because it is against histories and against their Liturgies which are extant you are able to bring none neither can I imagine to what purpose you should runne thither vnles it were to get an out side which might keepe colour with the inside of your Church I remember your doctrine is that her soule is euer stained with actuall and Originall sinne and that all her actions are fouled in the same puddle to which doctrine of your owne I may adde by experieÌ„ce that she hath a foule mouth if you will needes haue all this walk in a black out side too you may goe
allmightie God But it is true that all the people in the world are thus obliged as I prooue by the words of our Sauiour in sainct Marke Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures Mar. 16. v. 15.16 he that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued but he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Out of this argument followeth yet further that the Church cannot erre in any thing of faith whether it be fundamentall or not fundamentall incurable or curable great or little for the people are to beleeue that which the Church doth teach and thus God doth warrant in the place here alleaged and therfore it appertaines vnto his prouidēce to assist and protect the Church so that it neuer teach errour in steede of Gods word 14. The seauenth argument I make out of the iudgment of all Christiās before Luther touching the foresaid obligation to beleeue the Church and the diuine spirit in it And here I except onelie such as your selfe shall confesse to haue bene Heretiques and proceede thus Generall Councells did allwayes Arg. 7 beleeue that the Church was to be beleeued and that it had diuine assistance and therfore did accurse all those who beleeued the contrarie to the Church This you know by their acts and canons The people in communion with these Councells did beleeue the same which the Councells did and receaued that which they defined The fathers Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and the rest did the same And the same did all the predestinate who liued in the communion of the Church takinge their instruction from the mouth of the Church and beleeuing as the Church did which is further manifest because those are damned who beleeued not the Church as hath bene prooued in the former argument out of Sauiours words since therfore the predestinate are saued it remaines vndeniable that they did beleeue the Church 15. And here because you some tymes when you haue dronke to much of the cuppe of selfe loue do thinke that you entertaine the holie Ghost better then any of our religion haue done especiallie since you last were in heauen and read your name there in the booke of life I oppose spiritte vnto spiritte I oppose vnto you the knowne Saints of our Religion both late and ancient and obiect vnto you the Spiritte which was in them You haue there Saint Thomas of Aquine Sainct Bonauenture Saint Francis Sainct Dominicke Sainct Charles Boromeus Sainct Xauerius and others whose sanctitie God by miraculous workes and signes hath diuulged Among the auncient you haue the holie fathers and Martyres it were longe to repeate their names here You haue the martyrologe of Baronius there are thousands of them and the places where they liued consult his notes thereunto if you doubt of any And now I argue thus All true Christians in all ages euen from the Apostles tyme did euer rest in the iudgmēt of the Church as infallible beleeuīg what was in the Church before them vniuersallie beleeued ād condemning for Heretiques all those which before were vniuersallie condemned for such And this commō principle descēded through all ages so that whatsoeuer was vniuersallie taught by the pastors as matter of faith was receaued vniuersallie by the people and was approued by the generall iudgment of the Church of God and of her spiritte This I would haue you to consider well and marke againe that the communion of Gods elect was in this multitude which is further manifest first because this onelie is the true Church of God and they were all of the true Church Secondlie by those infinite miracles whereby God hath as it were with a seale confirmed their course of life and blessed end ād thirdlie because the communion of all holie fathers whose sanctitie you acknowledge and of infinite Martyrs putte to death for profession of Christianitie hath bene openlie with and in this Church 16. I prooue the same assistance eightlie by the testimonie of Sainct Paul Apostle and Master of the Gētiles a rule you knowe must Arg. 8 be right and a rule of faith free from errour This you are readie to admitte and to interprete of the Scripture the word of God I graunt is right but there are difficulties which it is which is all what is the sense of diuers places as all knowe by the controuersies now adaies Wee looke therfore for a liuing rule or iudge and certaine proponent of Gods word and meaning Such a rule the Apostle directeth vs vnto ā exteriour visible perpetuall rule to be followed by Christian people and this if it be proposed by God to be followed is infallible by his protection and assistance will you heare the Apostles words He Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets and other some Euangelists and other some pastors Ephes 4.11 12.13.14 and Doctors to the consummation of the Saincts to the worck of ministerie vnto the edifying of the body of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect mā into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried aboute with euerie winde of doctrine in the wickednes of men to the circumuention of errour Marke in this chapter of S. Paule how many things are defined against you and your fellowes First the perpetuitie of the Church in that he saith God gaue some pastors and Doctors vntill wee all meete in the vnitie of faith Secondlie the perpetuall visibilitie of it in that these pastors are building all the tyme and that they are Apostles Pastors Doctors whose office is visible and doth manifest their persōs to the flocke thirdlie the infallibilitie of the Church is explicated by the end of the foresaid perpetuall ministerie which is that wee be not wauering Among those the Apostle speakes of you I hope include the predestinate who therfore you see depend vppon exteriour certain cōmon ād in a word Catholique propositiō of the faith a litle before you haue the vnitie of this bodie and of the Spiritte of it and after followes the varietie of functions in this one visible bodie of Iesus Christ including the elect as I haue noted before The words are Doing the truth in Charitie let vs in all things grow in him which is the head Christ 〈◊〉 15.16 of whome the whole bodie being compact and knit togeather by all iuncture of subministration according to the operation in the measure of euery member maketh the increase of the bodie vnto the edifying of it selfe in Charitie Reflect or all this and tell me whether in this Bodie be Gods elect or no whether it be visible or inuisible whether it be many bodies or one bodie and whether this body be the true Church of Christ wherof he is the head 17. But now let vs to our argument againe Sainct Paule teacheth in this Chapter that God hath prouided continuall visible meanes to keepe men from errour therfore these meanes
the Church in later tymes did conforme her iudgment to the iudgment of the church in former tymes and esteeme it infalliblie This is true at all tymes from the Apostles to this daie therfore all the Church of all this tyme is against your affirmation and your affirmation against the Spirit of all this Church pastors and people 〈◊〉 and learned auncient and moderne 53. Fourthlie 4. Confir If all Christians be warranted by Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and true God to heaâ—e the Church and to 〈…〉 iudgment then is it vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though not fundamentall in your sense be false and coÌ„tradict the eternall truth because God being truth and goodnes obligeth not men to erre and to contradiction But all Christians are so warranted Luk. 10. v. 16. He which heareth you heareth me he which contemneth you contemneth me It is therfore vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though such as you call not fundamentall be false therfore it hath by Gods prouidence the assistance of the Spiritt of truth in euerie such generall resolution 54. Fiftlie If the whole Church theÌ„ all Bisshopes all Fathers though consenting all together aÌ„d teaching vniformely may haue erred in matters of faith which are not of your fundamentalles 5. Confir Whence it followes that whatsoeuer they haue said or beleeued or receaued aboue those fewe fundameÌ„talles may be false aÌ„d consequentlie nothing nothing at all in matter of faith is certaine but onelie those fewe fundamentalles Why then may not the rest of deuinitie yea all the rest of the scripture be false and why may not old damned heresies howsoeuer in the primitiue tyme abhorred be true If you offer to answere that you â—â—owe certainlie those things to be false and the rest of the scripture to be true I replie that you doe either pretend to know this by the spiritte and therby you admitte what before in your distinctioÌ„ you denied or you pretend to know it by your witte and then you entangle your selfe more in in the bryers for how will you make it euident that your witte cannot erre in these matters if all other wittes might haue erred 55. Hauing lighted here on the consideration of the fonde esteeme you haue of your owne witte aboue the world I begin to see that you affect a place farre aboue the qualitie of your person though this disorder in affection be in a manner secrette from your selfe You iudge and determine controuersies in matters not fundamentall as you speake and this men see aÌ„d your forwardnes herein hath enforced me to this answeare Now you take this office of determining these controuersies froÌ„ the Church as wee haue seene oft before aÌ„d if you would acknowledge it to be there I neede write no more of this matter This throne was high but you affect a higher yet which I shew for either in this matter of determining these controuersies you giue place to the Spiritt as to the iudge or you doe not if you doe the Spirittes holie assistance is exteÌ„ded further then to your fundamentalles if you doe not you sitte in the throne aÌ„d iudge for you determine them against vs. Let Christians tell me now whether you vsurpe the place or not 57. Sixtlie your errour is fuÌ„dameÌ„tall 6. Confirmâ— therfore the opposite which the Churche beleeue this a fundamentall truth And consequentlie in your prâ—ciples you must coÌ„fesse that she doth not erre in it for you say she erreth not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talls That your errour is fundameÌ„tall I prooue because that errour is fundamentall which is the ground of infinite errours but yours is the grouÌ„d of infinite errours because it takes away the certaiÌ„tie froÌ„ all Gods word and all deuinitie those fewe pointes onelie excepted which you call fundamentall 58. Moreouer to touch your fundamentalles also 7. Confirm It takes away all certaintie in them first because you leaue noe meanes to knowe which they be and secondlie because you leaue noe meanes to know they be diuinelie reuealed if it were knowne which in particular they al were for the authoritie of the Church proposeth equallie the whole Scripture and therfore if it sufficeth for any chapter or point it sufficeth for euery chapter and euerie point And the Spiritte of God did equallie direct the writer in all and it is Gods word all and therfore if the Spiritts direction or Gods authoritie serue to warrant some it serues to warrant all and if it be not able to warrant all it is vnable to warrant any at all 59. You thinke I haue done now but harke further Your assertion doth scandalize the Christian world if it may be scandalized for you take away all certaintie from the word of God in all pointes and partes but some twelue propositions which you call fundamentall 8. Confirm denying that there is at all any meanes to know certainlie that the rest is Gods word This I proue and I take the Gospell of S. Iohn or to declare it more fullie I take all the Bible and argue thus Either the Spiritte of God doth assist his Church to know certainlie that all in the Bible ouer and aboue your fuÌ„dameÌ„tall pointes is the word of God or it doth not Make your choise If it doth not there is no way to know certainely that it is the word of God for men of themselues and without Gods assistance all might erre especiallie in obscure matters as those are and in this especiallie which is to know whether God spake those wordes or noe If it doth the field is ours for euerie thing there is not one of the fundamentalles 60. The same argumente may be made of the sense of any place for either the place is fundamentall and such are fewe by your accompt or the place is not fundamentall and then excluding the assistance of the Spiritte you haue noe waie to be assured of the sense 61. Let vs oÌ„ to the triall of this argumeÌ„t OpeÌ„ your Bible turne to the first Chapter of Genesis and reade the first verse In the begining God created heaueÌ„ and earth Of this verse I demauÌ„d eight things First whether you be certaine that it is the word of God and how SecoÌ„dlie whether it be a fundamentall place or be not Thirdlie how you doe know certainlie that it is or that it is not fundamentall Fourthlie whether there be meanes to knowe certainlie the sense if neede require Fiftlie what are the meanes which may assure men of the sense Sixtlie whether there be any meanes to knowe certainlie whether in these words be more literall seÌ„ses theÌ„ one Seuenthlie whether the assistance of the Spiritte be or be not necessarie to the certaine knowledge or assurance of these things Eightlie whether this assistance be promised to the Church or to others out of it as to Heretiques and pagans These eight things I demaund about that verse and when you
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religiō thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church ād Gods predestinate are all of one Religiō one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. ◠Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happē to any one may happē to all or to euerie one But to erre may happē to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happē to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happē to euery one or to all ād so all at ōce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you cā thrust ā egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme ād moode thus That which may happē to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happē to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditiōs that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play ād to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust ād no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chāce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chāce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and cōtingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and cōsequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue ād haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumēt which nothwithstādīg is one of the maine foundatiōs where on your mē do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
Pastors in it euer if that were the mysticall body of Christ for Christ appointed such till all meete Edantorigines EcclesiaruÌ„ suaruÌ„ euoluaÌ„t ordinem Episcoporum suorum ita per Successiones ab enitio decurientem vt primus ille Episcopus aâ—qâ—e ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis viris qui tameÌ„ cuÌ„ Apostolis perâ—euerauerint habuerit auctorem antecessoreÌ„ Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae sensus suos deferunt Tert. Praescript c. 32. And you must not aske them for they will shew you none but laie persons Let vs know what Councelles they haue kept and where what Nations they haue conuerted vnto Christ and by whom what Sainctes and Martyrs haue ben among them what Churches they haue erected what Heretickes they haue condemned and where and how and with what Nations and Princes they haue communicated and bring good Euidence to prooue it If this be the true Church conceale her not God is not ashamed of his Church if these people be the companie of holie ones let vs see their actions and good works If there were a continual succession of such men let vs see their monuments otherwise wee haue noe reason to beleeue that there were indeed any such in the tyme betwixt Waldo and our Sauiours ascension which are more then a thousand yeares If you will haue vs beleeue there were such all that tyme bring your proofe Lett vs know I saie and should repeate this question oft least you wittinglie doe forget it where they were from tyme to tyme what they did who were of their communion or tooke notice at least of theÌ„ as frindes or foes what writers they had what Bishops what Councels and this from age to age till you come to the Apostles daies The questioÌ„ is cleere the matter is of fact the thing of moment You haue bene searching these huÌ„dred yeares all papers and libraries and scrowles where is your answeare where is your euidence 6. If this were all donne which will be donne when tyme runnes backward and when euery thing whatsoeuer any minister for a shift can desire or imagine may be fouÌ„d euery where there would remaine yet a further taske and that were to shew that this religion of the Waldenses 2. Book 1. Ch. were vniuersall in regard of place or Nations But I need not vrge further for you are grauelled in the very first If you should offer to name Hus or Wickleffe I would proceed after the same manner with either of them and demaund proofe of their continuall succession euer since our Sauiour Christ did ascend and of their communion with Nations to verifie the Prophecies of the Old Testament and our Sauiours intention in the New and of their agreement with you in all pointes I would demaund euidence of all this of VVickleffe of Hus or of you for theÌ„ and desire to see the face of that Church her Actes and Monumentes her VVriters her Pastors c. And this with great reason before I beleeue it and embrace the communion of it and venture my soule in it because that which I demauÌ„d is hetherto vnknowne not to me onlie but to all the whole world THE SECOND CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to our Church 7. THe nakednes of your cause appearing manifestlie thorough the beggarie of the VValdenses you would hide your selues faine in our Church and therefore flinging of that poore shift as vnsufficient you saie next that your succession hath ben continued by vs. But you may not rest heere The thing which wee demaund is a continuall succession of Protestantes that is of men professing the religion now currant in England Bring your euidence that in euery age there were some of these men VVee are not of your religion wee haue openlie condemned it as hereticall in the Councell of Trent and you doe persecute ours in England condemning many pointes of faith which wee beleeue so that if you take vs to continue you to the primitiue Church and to the Apostles this continuation is not Protestant wheras a Protestant continuation is the thing wee demaund Goe not to fast but consider well what heere wee haue in hand I demaund a continuall succession of men of your Religion not of ours you are to giue accompt of your owne predecessors not of mine of Protestants not of Papists You must shewe your owne Cards and not mine if doe meane to winne the game Wee doe frequent the Masse beleeue vnbloodie Sacrifice adore the sacred Hoste pray to Saincts worship Angells beleeue a Purgatorie pray for the deade honoure Images Wee lay open our consciences to our Priests and acknowledge in them power to Absolue vs and a diuine precept obliging vs to Confesse Wee beleeue that our Sauiour doth impart vnto the reconciled power to redeeme by good and penall works the temporall paine due to sinne and that the Church hath power by way of Indulgence to release it Wee beleeue Traditions Merit Iustification by works Obseruation of the commandements and works of Supererogation Vowes and a fuller Canon of the Scripture then you doe In our Hierarchie wee haue Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons and others all which in substance you haue not but an outward appearaÌ„ce onely Wee acknowledge in the Pope a superioritie ouer the other Bishops in the Church in Generall approued Councells an Infallibilitie and in each Member of our Communitie an Obligation of conformitie in iudgment to the iudgment and Decrees of these Councells In these and such other things essentiall to our Religion wee are distinct from you and therefore it is childish to name vs for men of your Religion It is true that you pretend to beleeue some things wich wee doe as the Trinitie and Incarnation and some parts of Scripture Neuerthelesse in other things within the compasse of diuine faith and religion wee are distinct as by the premises it doth appeare All Heretiques that euer were beleeued somethings with the Church but that sufficed not to make them of the same Religion with it or among themselues Iewes beleeue somethings which Christians doe so doe the Turkes and the Naturalists who beleeue a God notwithstanding Catholiques Iewes Heretiques Turkes and Naturalists are not ALL of ONE RELIGION Horses and Asses are liuing Creatures but not of the same species with a man Lutherans and Caluinistes are not Catholiques The Pope is no Protestant the Bishops of our Church are not of your communion our Priests are consecrated to say Masse our People beleeue as their Pastors All abhorre your Heresie and detest your Schisme Your Bookes are against our faith your lawes against the exercise of our Religion You accuse vs of Idolatrie Superstition Errour Heresie Name others name YOVR OWNE and a CONTINVALL SVCCESSION of them name not vs. Your Religion in that it is distinct from ours is made vp partly of newe deuised stuffe partly of old ragges left vnto you from the torne coates of Iouinian Donatus Aerius Vide Coll. R. Chalc. c. 23.
you must consider that the eie of faith ād the corporall eie may both finde their obiects in one and the same thing Wee reade the Scripture ād beleeue the sense The Apostles saw our Sauiour and beleeued he was the Sonne of God The faithfull assēbled when the holie Ghost came amongst them were visible and yet they where the Church First therefore in a word I will declare that the Church of God which soeuer be is visible secondlie I will shewe you the greatnes of it which is the thing I principallie doe intend in this Chapter thirdlie the durance or perpetuitie that you may frame in your vnderstanding the true conceipt of the Church of God 3. And first touching the visibilitie or to speake yet more generallie touching the sensible perceptibility of the thing wee speake of it is cleere that that which makes a continuall noise Visibilitie and is alwaies speaking and in all mens eies and cannot be hid is a thing sensible vnto men that haue eies and eares and if this thing be in all Nations and at all tymes it is sensible to all the world Now this is the condition of the Church of God Psal 18. v. 6. Isa 52. v. 10 which soeuer it be which I prooue thus by Scripture He hath put his tabernacle in the Sunne saith Dauid and Isaie Our lord hath prepared his holie arme in the eies of all the Gētiles and all the endes of the earth shall see the saluation of our God They of the west shall feare the name of our Lord and they of the rising of the sunne his glorie when he shall come as a violent streame 59. v. 19.20 21. which the spirit of our Lord driueth and there shall come the Redeemer to Sion and to them that returne from iniquitie in Iacob saith our Lord. This is my couenant with them saith our Lord. My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our Lord 62. v. 6. Mat. 5. v. 15 See S. Aug. enar in ps 47. from this present and for euer Vppon thy walls Ierusalem I haue appointed watchmen All the day and all the night for euer they shall not hold their peace You are the light of the world a cittie cannot be hid situated on a montaine 4. I omitte the allegation of more authorities because hereafter I shall speake more of this matter and these fewe declare and prooue manifestlie the truth of that which I said I goe therefore on to the chiefe point intended in this Chapter which is to shewe Gods eternall and inuiolable ordinance about the Churches vniuersalitie Vniuersalitie Gal. 3. And to begin with Moyses wee haue in him the promise of an ample Posteritie to old Abraham Father of Beleeuers made by God himselfe and expounded by S. Paul of the Church of Christ Gen. 22. v. 17. I will blesse thee and I will multiplie thy seede as the starres of heauen and as the sand that is in the sea shore thy seed shall possesse the gates of their enimies and in thy seed shall be blessed all the Nations of the earth This did God then confirme with an oath and proceeding in the promise 28. v. 14. confirmed it againe to Iacob afterward thy seed shall he as the dust of the earth thou shalt be dilated to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south and in thee and in thy seede all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed Next in the psalmes wee heare God the Father saying vnto his sonne our Sauiour Psal 2. v. 8 aske of me and I will giue the Gentiles for thine inheritance and thy possession the ends of the earth and the Prophet adds in an other psalme all the ends of the earth shall remember and be conuerted vnto our Lord 21. v. 28.29 and all the families of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight All Natiōs whatsoeuer thou hast made shall come and shall adore before thee o lord 65. v. 6. 5. Among the Prophets Isaie In the latter daies the mountaine of the house of our lord shall be prepared in the top of mountaines and shall be raised aboue the little hilles Isa 2 v. 2.3 and all Nations shall flowe vnto it and many people shall goe and shall saie come and let vs goe vp to the mount of our lord and to the house of the God of Iacob and he will teach vs his waies and wee shall walke in his paths And againe vppon thee o Ierusalem shall our lord arise and his glorie shall beseene vppon thee and the Gentiles shall walke in thy light and kings in the brightnes of the rising 60. v. 2.3.4 5. lift vp thine eies round about and behold all these are gathered together they are come vnto thee thy sonnes shall come from a farre and thy daughters shall arise from thy side then shalt thou see and shalt abound and thy hart shall wonder and be enlarged when the multitude of the sea shall be conuerted vnto thee the strengh of Gentiles shall come to thee After him Daniel I beheld in the vision of the night and loe with the clouds of heauen there came in as it were the sonne of man Dan. 7. v. 13.14 and he came euen to the auncient of daies and in his sight they offered him and he gaue him power and honour and kingdome and all people tribes and tongues shall serue him his power is an eternall power that shall not be taken awaie and his kingdeme shall not be corrupted The like is in the rest I adde onelie Malachie which is the last and neerest to our Sauiours tyme from the rising of the sunne euen to the going downe Mal. 1. v. 11 great is my name among the Gentiles and in euerie place there is sacrificing and there is offered vnto my name a cleane Oblation because my name is great among the Gentiles saith the lord of hostes 6. As the old Testament so the newe doth establish the foresaid vniuersalitie of the Church and our Sauiour doth giue commission vnto his disciples and to their Successors to raise such a one All power saith he is giuen me in heauen and in earth going therefore teach yee all Nations Mat. 28. v. 19.20 baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the sonne ād of the holie Ghost teaching them to obserue all things whatsoeuer I haue commaunded you and behold I am with you all daies euen to the consummation of the world Going into the world preach the Gospell to all creatures And in another Mar. 16. v. 15. he declares the issue of the foresaid propheticall speaches against such as would haue imagined they were cōditionall speaches onelie These are the words which I spake to you Luk. 24. v. 44.45.46 when I
fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you cānot disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned mē and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatiō by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers wēt to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall Religiō of the Christiā world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I cōfirme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. ◠I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all Christiā people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all Natiōs all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere Successiō in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of thē here I will set in your way desiring the
verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penè terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to
haue bene confirmed to Bonifacius by Phocas But this will not hinder my argument for it is one thinge to declare and second an other thing to institute the institution of the Primacie you haue in the Gospell Ma◠〈…〉 18. Io. 21.18 S. Hierom. ep ad Dam Theod. ep ad Renat Presb Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. Touching the existēcie of our Religion in the tyme of Constantine See more in the Protestant Apol tract 2 c. ◠Sect. 3. the acknowledgment you haue in Antiquitie as I will declare hereafter and the exercise before the tyme of Boniface is well knowne On this Rocke will I build my Church said our Sauiour who commended his flocke peculiarly to S. Peeter I quoth S. Ierom to Damasus then Pope Following none formost but Christ doe communicate with thy Holines that is with the chaire of Peeter Vppon that Rocke I knowe the Church was built And Theodoret a Grecian speaking of that See That holy Seate hath the gouerment of all the Churches in the world You heard before what S. Leo said of it and you knowe how he did exercise this power Only because your fellowes are wōt to obiect a speach of S. Cregorie not content to take the interpretation of it from his owne mouth I put you heare in mind that he did exercise this power ouer all the Christian Churches in his tyme and this you haue noted by D. Sanders in his Monarchie Sand. Visib Mon. l. 7. and not answered yet He shewes there I say out of S. Gregories owne writings how he did exercise the foresaid power ouer the Bysshops and Churches of Italie Sicilie Corsica Sardinia Africke Spaine Ireland England France Dalmatia Greece Corcyra and that the Patriarcks haue confessed Subiection to the Church of Rome Lastly wee haue the confession of your men here cited in this an gument for the generall obedience to the Pope euer since Constantine which is sufficient for this purpose howsoeuer the Grecians might some tymes beare themselues in some occasions of which I am to speake in an other place 23. A seuenth Arg. It is manifest by the scriptures aboue cited that the Catholique Church is perpetuall and cannot faile and Arg. 7 this by Scripture is meant of the visible Church whereof I haue giuen ample demōstration in the begining of this second Booke which I desire the reader to peruse and marke Now there is no Christian Church at all that hath bene petpetuall but this which I speake of Therefore this indiuiduall Church is the Catholique Church To See the truth of that I haue assumed let vs looke vpon the rest The Pagans come not in question because their Church is not Christian nor the Iewes for the same reason though they farre exceede you in this point of perpetuitie The Grecians they were in our communion the first thousand yeares and since haue bene neither was Grecisme beleeued allwaies or euer the faith of Nations and communion with you they haue refused Your Church and Religion hath not bene perpetuall as in the former booke wee haue seene to your griefe Another that can callenge there is not not the Aethiopian nor the Maronite nor any whatsoeuer The Roman hath euer beene and her communion euer bene vniuersall therefore this greate and ample Societie is the true Church of God 24. An eigth Argum. That is the Catholique Church whereūto come all Natiōs ād out of which all Heretiques do goe But into the communion of that companie which I haue Arg. 8 named that is into the communion of the See of Rome and the companie of Christians communicating with it all Nations hetherto haue come and out of it all Heretiques haue gone Therefore this is and hath euer bene the Catholique Church The proposition is cleere by the promises related in the beginīg that all Nations should be conuerted to the Church and her gates be euer open day and night to receiue them c. 1. Is 60. S. Aug. de Sym. 6. l. 1. c. 5. and as for Heretiques it is well knowne that they are boughes lopped of the great vine and that that heresie is a corruption of the true faith The assumption you haue at large in Ecclesiasticall Histories and you denie not but in the Primitiue tyme this companie was the Church Baronius Spondan auctar Iarricius Magdeburg Osiander Pappu◠See Prot. Apol. tr 2. c. 1. s 4. that Nations from Infidelitie were conuerted to it and that Heretikes all went out of the same companie Since vnto the same haue bene conuerted the Germanes Vandalls Polonians Danes Hungarians Noruegians Brasilians Indians and diuers others and to your companie or religion immediatelie from infidelitie no Nation at all Out of the same great companie haue gone all Heretickes since that tyme and among them those who in part were your predecessors Iconoclastes Berengarians Waldenses Albigenses Lollardes Hussites 25. Beare with me if I repeate the same againe Arg. 9 for a nienth argument The Romane See and other congregations in that communion were the Church or the Catholicke Congregation in the tyme of Saint Paul And the same congregation 300. yeares after was still the Catholicke Church and had the communion of the Christian world as you know by the Generall Councell of Nice Into it came Schythiās Iberians Armenians Hunnes and others Out went the Marcionites Nouatians Manichees Arianes Betwixt the fourth and fift age was the Coūcell of Calcedō and in that tyme likewise the foresaid cōmuniō was the Church Catholique ād their communion was with the christian world as by that councell of calcedon ād the Epistles of Leo the great who was President of it all men knowe Into this communion came Scottes French and other Nations Out went Pelagians and Nestorians after whose cōmunion in the Aethiopians you seeme to thirst In the next ages followīg which were the sixt ād seauēth were the Generall assemblies at Cōstātinople One in the tyme of Vigilius being the fifte Generall Councell The other in the tyme of Agatho which you haue in the Tōes of Councelles with most ample subscriptiō of the Bysshops which were in thē and by these Generall councelles which did also receaue the former it is euidēt that in those tymes also the cōpanie of Christians in cōmuniō with the See of Rome was the Catholicke Church ād that the communion of those Popes ād those Coūcelles was with the world of Christians Into it came the Pictes Gothes Barbarians and our Countrie Out were cast the Tritheites Monothelites and other such excrementes After those Councelles Followed others One at Nice in the tyme of Adrian the first Another at Constantinople Adrian the second being then Byshop of Rome By which Councelles it is cleere that the communion of the Roman See was then also generall and this companie the Church of God They did also receaue the former Councelles and noe communion was Generall in Christendome or continued by Vniuersall Succession but onelie this Into this companie came the Frisians Hassites Russians Out
togeather from all places to discusse and to determine Is he moued with Antiquity the Reuerence of elder times is all with vs heere are Gregories and ChrysostoÌ„s and Augustines and Basils and Ephrems and Cyrills and Cyprians and Iustines and others innumerable Is he moued by Gods word it is flatly and vnansweareably on our side Atheists children can answere they erre so grosly against the light of nature The Iewes are forced to see with their owne eies the Prophecies of the Messias and his Kingdome fullfilled in Iesus Christ and his Church And this Church to be the Catholique yeauen that which is now and hath ben euer in the Communion of the Roman See is so cleere that denying of it all Histories all Bookes all Monuments all Memorie must be denied and nothing be confessed for true which euer yet hath beene on earth Denying of it you may allso denie that there was euer Iewish Nation or Roman Emperour or Heathen Idol you may as well deny that Rome Constantinople London are or euer were THE SIXT CHAPTER What meant by a Catholique 52. BEfore I goe on to your Obiections because the place is verie fitte and the thing necessarie to be obserued and borne in minde I will tell you what I meane by a Catholicke which question is here answeared without difficultie You haue seene the Catholique Church that is the congregation of Christians in communion at all tymes with the See of Rome by a Catholique man I meane one who beleeues the Creede of this Church one of this comunion aÌ„d euerie one which did heretofore embrace this communion was a Catholique so long as he did embrace it and died a Catholique if he died in it In the communion with this Church is included a Vnion with it which vnion is founded in a conformitie or vniformitie of faith and iudgment in diuine matters And this was in all those who did resolue their beleefe into the proposition or iudgment of this Church For he who submittes his iudgment whollie to the Church and beleeues as she telles him readie to beleeue more if she declare her selfe more fullie and to condemne all doctrine which she coÌ„demnes is vndiuided from the Church in iudgment and therefore vniforme 53. Hence it comes also that not onelie those who liued at one tyme were of our communion but such also as liued in diuers ages because the following age did receaue the doctrine and generall decrees of the precedeÌ„t beleeuing all which was then by the Church beleeued and condemning such opinions as they condemned By this meanes wee doe also communicate with them all as perfectlie in the disposition of our soule and redines of our vnderstanding as if wee had liued with them HeÌ„ce it is that wee admitte all the Councelles that were generallie receaued by the Church in their tyme and are sufficientlie moued therunto by the iudgmeÌ„t of the Church which then receaued them For wee resolue our iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and that is our rule vnder God who is the prime rule and highest Obiect of our faith You will be readie to make an other vse of some part of this discourse but you cannot for you make your owne choise of that which you beleeue and doe not submitte your iudgment to the iudgment of Gods Church Wee acknowledge diuine assistance in Church-proposition as I haue said before and this doth euery Catholique which is the reason why wee are all of one religion though wee liue at seuerall tymes Out of this comes the Catholique Vnion or vnitie which is most ample reaching into all Nations and through all tymes which kind of vnitie depending on the Churches mouth as on a subordinate cause and rule but principallie on the all-teaching Spiritte directing to reuealed veâ—ities as on an infinite and immoueable principle as hereafter I will shew is peculiar to the Church of God Aske any man of our religion on whose iudgment he relies in matters of faith and he will answeare that he relies on the iudgment of the Church and if you aske further on whom the whole Church of this age hath dependence for exterior proposition of matters of faith I answeare that this whole age resolues it selfe into the precedent age and that into the precedent and so vpwardes to the first which age did resolue it selfe into the Apostle proposition and they resolued their faith into the proposition of our Sauiour who came into the world to this purpose and he Cour Sauiour being the naturall sonne of God did cleerlie behould all truth with an infinite vnderstanding And there staies the resolution hauing made a full compasse and returned thether where this veritie first was For all truth is first in the diuine vnderstanding and thence reuealed manie wayes as it hath pleased that originall goodnes the eternall Father as by prophettes in ould tyme and after by his Sonne Iesus Christ who did instruct his Church and bequeathed an euerlasting assistance to beare in minde and to deliuer truelie this lesson to future ages Hence it came that this instruction or word which he put into her mouth hath not yet gotte out of it nor will to the worldes end 54 I had made a full point and was going on to the next Chapter but I remembred with whom I am now againe dealing and that I am to repeate the same things ouer more then once hauing for the same reason also contented my selfe with verie few things among infinite which might be said for our cause My chiefe intention therefore in this second booke was onelie to declare which companie of people in all the world is the Church Catholique or the Church answearing to Gods eternall decree declared by the Prophets And I haue prooued it to be that companie which is and hath bene euer in the coÌ„munion of the See of Rome This coÌ„panie of Beleeuers is the Church described in Gods word and no other companie distinct from this whatsoeuer it be is the Church there described In the proofe of this I haue taken such grouÌ„ds as are vndeniable as the knowne coÌ„munion of Nations the like being no where found the Testimonie of worlds of people the Confession of the most learned Aduersaries that wee haue or euer had since Luther came The Euidence of generall Councelles and the knowne Opposition of all confessed Heretiques in all tymes to this Church and to no other These grounds or arguments I take so farre only as they are manifestlie vndeniable and no further and to prooue that which your owne fellowes and your Masters doe yeeld vnto aÌ„d though most vnwillinglie haue confessed in their books That is I take them to declare that the Church in communion with the See of Rome is and hath bene euer the Church described by the Prophets and that no other answearable to that description is any where els to be found VVhen you answeare this Booke I will haue no other thing answeared in this place but this Keepe the question all
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
I haue appointed watchmen Isay 62.6 all the daie and all the night foreuer they shall not hould their peace It is not said they shall not hould their peace if they doe not sleepe according to your drowsie glosse or if they will not speake the word of God but absolutelie it is said they shall not hould their peace And thus much of the first Iohn 14. v. 16.17 32. The second place doth containe our Sauiours will as I said the words are these I will aske the Father and he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of truth whome the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not neither knoweth him but you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you v. 26. The Paraclete the holie Ghost whom the father will send in my name he shall teach you all things aÌ„d suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you â—6 chap. v. 12.13 Yet many things I haue to saie vnto you but you cannot beare them now but when he the Spiritt of truth commeth he shall teach you all truth For he shall not speake of himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but what things soeuer he shall heare he shall speake In these words obserue with me seaueÌ„ things the first is who seÌ„deth Iesus Christ the soÌ„ne of God secondlie whom he sendeth another comforter the holie Ghost the Spiritte of truth thirdlie to whome he sends this comforter and Spirit to the Church he was to leaue behinde him here one earth consisting of Apostles aÌ„d Pastors persons visible by their function and office Fourthlie how this Spirit is to be with them to abide in this Church and to remanie with it Fiftlie to what end all this to teach them the truth Sixtlie Some pro are so Wise as to exclude teaching and say the spirit was left only to coÌ„fort not to teach what truth and how much whatsoeuer I shall saie to you what things soeuer he shall heare All truth Seauenthlie for how long For euer All this is in the text and therfore our position is most true that the Church hath diuine assistance in the proposition of the faith 33 I must tell you moreouer first that God with a fewe words can signifie many things his comprehension being infinite and he knowing all the significations and vses of all words And next that I take these words of Iesus Christ in the whole fullnes of their sense and meaning though some Interpreters haue contented themselues to put a part of it onelie downe hauing not then occasion as wee haue now to searth further In the Church are people and Pastors the Spiritte assists all some to teach aÌ„d to gouerne others to obaie and to be directed Some are predestinate aÌ„d with these the spiritte continues to perseuerance some are not but for a tyme beleeue and this by the assistance of the spiritte And some of them are teachers allso and gouernours aÌ„d in this kinde do participate allso the assistance of Gods Spirit who disposeth all as he pleaseth diuiding his guifts aÌ„d graces among men to his glorie and the good of the predestinate In fine all those whose names are written in the booke of life perseuere finallie So that the Spirit leades them further to the state of glorie and there shewes them all truth in it selfe abiding so with them for all eternitie 34. But now let vs heare what you saie to this place First you saie it is promised to the Apostles in their owne persons onelie This is false first because it is promised to remaine with them for euer whereas the Apostles in their owne persons were not to liue euer heere and perpetuall coexistence of two extreames includes a perpetuall existeÌ„ce of each of them as I noted before vpon the like occasion it is to them therfore and to their successors after them without ending at any tyme and so foreuer Secondlie by the end of the graunt the same is euident for the Church now a daies stands in neede of this Assistance as well as it did then and in some respects more because it is greater and the like it is of other ages and will be still to the worlds end since therefore the prouidence of our Sauiour for the establishment of his Church and saluation of his elect is perfect the graunt holds according to the letter and is so to be vnderstood as the word stands foreuer 35. Next you saye the sence is the Spiritte teacheth the Church all the truth that is taught her If I should tell you that my master in England did teach me all languages aÌ„d coÌ„fesse afterwards they were but two that he taught me you would thinke sure that I did lie for two be not all Yet would you haue the Scripture to speake in this manner But I answeare that the words of Scripture are plaine he shall teach all whatsoeuer I shall say to you whatsoeuer he shall heare all truth ch 14. v. 26 Ch. 16. v. 13 And I thinke if I should giue you all my bookes you would not be contented if my executors should giue you the tenth part with this interpretation of the will I giue you all that is all which are giuen you and then define what that is among themselues as you doe in the matter of fundamentall points but of this hereafter 36. The third waie of eluding the place is to saie that in heauen the Spirit teacheth all truth but not here That in heaueÌ„ he teacheth all I knowe well but you erre against the scripture in denying that he teacheth all truth heere Reade the text and you shall see that our Sauiour sendeth the Spirit vnto the militant Church from which he meant to withdrawe his visible presence to the Apostles left in the world and to their Successors to comfort them in his absence to reduce vnto their minde what he had said and to assist and teach them all truth The Spiritte of truth saith excellentlie S. Cyrill will lead vnto all truth Cyrill Alex li. 10. in Ioan. cap. 41. for he knoweth exactlie the truth whose spirit he is and hath reuealed it vnto vs not in part onelie but entirely for though in this life wee know in part onelie as S. Paul saith 1. Cor. 13. not an imperfect but the entire truth hath shined vnto vs in this litle knowledge * The Obiects of the Churches faith as the Trinitie the Incarnation c. may be knowne either obscurely by faith or cleerely by vision The former of these is an vnperfect knowledge of them the latter is perfect As he that beleeues all the Conclusions in Euclide for the Authoritie of Schollers who generally agree in them knowes them vnperfectly but he that can demonstrate them knowes them perfectly To both the foresaid knowledges the holy Ghost doth leade the Church to the former heere on earth to the later in heauen Of the
haue answeared them I goe to the second verse and demaund all the same And theÌ„ I goe to the third aÌ„d demauÌ„d all the same And when this Chapter is done I goe to the next and so on forwards thorough the Bible verse after verse till I come to the last verse in the Apocalyps or Reuelation 62. You will peraduenture meruaile that I doe include that booke too because it is full of obscure mysteries notwithstanding I will alonge thorough that allso with all these demaunds for there are meanes to knowe that it is the word of God and the Assistance of the spirit is sufficient to open the sense of each verse when the circumstances doe require it and you dispute against vs out of it and alleage vnder the title of manifest Scripture free from all ambiguitie the deepest mysteries that are there Moreouer the Prophecies there contained will be manifest in the end as the prophecies in the ould Testament of the Messias aÌ„d his Church are now opeÌ„ to the world The spiritte allso doth open to learned men many thiÌ„gs in the scripture which are hiddeÌ„ froÌ„ the vulgar aÌ„d are not yet by generall decree defined because the coÌ„moÌ„ exigeÌ„ce of the Church requires not the open and publique notice of theÌ„ yet these might be defined if need were as many things by occasioÌ„ of your heresies infesting and endangering Gods people haue bene of late 63. You will allso woÌ„der that I speake of many senses but I haue reasoÌ„ to saie as I doe because Gods word is full of sense as before I said and some tyme so many seÌ„ses doe occurre in the same speach that it is not easie to determine which God intendeth or whether he doth inteÌ„d more theÌ„ one And that I goe not further to fetch examples the words now cited are very hard In the begining God created heauen and earth what is this begining what kind of making doth he speake of what doth he meane by heauen and earth * In the begining God created heauen and earth It is not easie to finde the sense of these words as you will conceaue if you attend and ponder each the begining What is it is it the begining of time which he meanes or the begining of the works of God before he made time or is this begining Gods eternall word or what other thing is signified by these 64. Sainct Augustine a greate Scholler and a man of the Church primitiue and one of Gods elect did search with great diligence and earnest prayer in his ould age for the sense of this place as you may reade in the twelfth booke of his Confessions where hauing acknowledged the scriptureâ—â—o be so profound that it is horrour to looke into theÌ„ he brings many senses of these words and after a longe discussion Aug. l. 12. Confess c. 31. and serious Weighing of the difficultie concludes thus when one saith the prophet vnderstood that which I doe and another that which I. I thiÌ„ke I speake more religiouslie why not both if both be true and if any bodie seeth in these words some third thing or fourth or some other at all whatsoeuer why may not he be beleeued to haue seene all those things by whom one God hath tempered holie writ to many mens iudgments which were to see diuers things then he adds something in commendation of that full kinde of stile and in fine resolues In any wise when he wrote these words he vnderstood and thought whatsoeuer truth wee could find and whatsoeuer wee could not or cannot yet but may be fouÌ„d in them Marke this deuinitie well and remember whose it is 65. I forbeare to speake of the Assistance giuen to the prophets and Euangelists aÌ„d Apostles in all they did write and publish as Gods word which doth affoord me an other argumeÌ„t as hard for you to answere as the former I will not here discouer the gap you laie open to infinite Heresies about admitting about vnderstanding the word of God I loathe to let the world see how scandalous your doctrine iâ—â—â—w you oppose Christianitie vnder the colour of reformatioÌ„ aÌ„d doe what you can to shake the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the faith that others may stagger in all as you peraduenture doe aÌ„d so the deuill get the day But all your endeuours poore men come to short you shoot your arrowes against heaueÌ„ which they hurt not but wouÌ„d your selues in the returne The Church of God is built on a rocke and a fewe words defend it such is the power of the words of Iesus Christ against all that Heretiques and Pagans and Persecutors and impostors and deuills Matt. 16.18 can attempt Thou art Peeter and vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it These words haue defended it these sixteene hundred years against all aduersaries whatsoeuer and wee were fooles if now wee should be afraid Wee are safe wee are secure The sonne of God is our foundation the holie Ghost is our direction and our Lord round about vs for euer I conclude and because you seeme to take the SCRIPTVRE the SPIRIT IESVS CHRIST for iudges of controuersies when you talke at home before your parish to stop this bragge of yours I heere present this controuersie of ours about the assistance to the SCRIPTVRE to the diuine SPIRIT to IESVS CHRIST in these termes whether the Spirit be to teach some truthes onelie which you call fundamentall or others allso which you call not fundamentall The answeare is ALL. Io. 16.13 The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth These be Gods words I beleeue them and here I rest THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Shewing how Catholikes all beleue the same though some more distinctly then others and the reason why Heretickes agree not 66. THat I may impart vnto you now the manner of discourse which I forme vnto my selfe sometymes in this businesse you must vnderstaÌ„d that the all-teaching Spirit or Holie Ghost is the Spirit of Vnitie aÌ„d that his Organ is the Church wherin he remaines aÌ„d teaches as I haue declared This Spiritte by the foresaid organ or mouth of the Church deliuers the true sense of the Scripture and those which beleeue and submitte their vnderstaÌ„dïg to this iudgmeÌ„t aÌ„d visible tribunall are all one in faith euerie one beleeuing ALL which the Church thus assisted doth hold aÌ„d beleeue and therfore all the same If I thought you coÌ„ceaued not my meaniÌ„g I would deliuer my selfe plainer thus The doctrine of the Catholique Church all together or the collection of points which it holds is but one summe of doctrine or collection of points And not onelie the bodie of the Church takeÌ„ in grosse but euerie Catholique doth beleeue it all And therfore take any two Catholiques whom soeuer where and whensoeuer they liued and their beleefe is the same to the last point or title because each beleeues all that the other beleeues as I haue said But the thing which troubles you
is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
in the Primitiue Church neither be they all saincts at this day Many are called fewe chosen Good ād bad are mingled here The spouse is blacke ād faire In the Churches decrees there is no errour against faith no rule against manners Her rule is irreprehensible being the rule of Christianitie And when any thing is amisse in mens cariage or behauiour towards God or man she doth admonish and punish as occasion requires Hence haue come all those decrees of reformation made in Councells generall and particular which you haue seene more then once In an infinite number to haue some disorders is incident and wee were foretould that scandalls should be Mat. 18. But consider further that this Church hath an infinite cōpanie of holie men likewise and that all which arriue to glorie shall haue liued in this Church Apoc. 7. and those of all tribes tongues and Nations For this very Church though not according to all the materiall parts shall triumphe as I haue said in an other place and in state of triumphe shall be all faire and all ouer without spot she shall be without actuall or originall or veniall sinne when she comes with open eies to looke the prime veritie in the face and to embrace the diuine goodnes with all the latitude of her soule THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the Protestant multiplication of Churches by visible and inuisible 68. IN this place before I conclude I haue a word more to say about your distinction of visible and inuisible I thought once to make it a Chapter in the first booke one of your greate leaps when you are pursued ending in it From Luthers Schoole you skip into Waldoes from thence you thrust your selues on vs from vs to the Church primitiue and from the primitiue Church you get quite out of the eies of the whole world and betake your selues to Inuisibilitie In regard I there pursued you I thought I say to speake allso of the distinction there But the thinge will be more easie now because in many places as occasions were offered I haue discoused of the * He that desires to see more of the Visibilitie of the Church shall find it exactly handled and the Protestant euasions all cleerely refuted by L. my of Chalc. in his booke de auctorae essentia Protestantica Ecclesia l. 2. c. 6. seqq Visibilitie of Gods Church The Church of Gods is one and visible as the Scripture doth witnes Yet you with two words visible and inuisible haue made a distinction to rend it into two and do maintaine stoutlie that God hath two Churches one inuisible consisting of predestinate persons onelie The other visible which doth exteriorlie professe the faith 99. The whole companie of the faith full may be deuided into two parts by God allmightie the one part is predestinate the other part is the companie of those which are not predestinate By this the whole is sufficientlie deuided for euerie man in the companie belongs to one part or member of the diuision and no man belongs to both For you cannot affirme two contradictories of the same as to say Peeter is predestinated and Peeter is not predestinated This being so I demaund now which of these companies is visible and which inuisible And what makes the one to be so rather then the other If predestination make men inuisible whie doth not reprobation make men inuisible since reprobation is a secret as hard to knowe If profession of the faith make the reprobate visible whie can not profession make the predestinate men visible And if these companies be together mingled why are they not both visible or both inuisible or rather whie is not the whole companie visible by reason of the profession and communion though Gods disposition towards this and that man in particular be inuisible and secret 100. Wee beleeue that the whole companie of Catholiques is the Church as I haue declared larglie heretofore Wee beleeue that the predestinate are in this companie that they die all of them in the communion of the Church and that here they professe their faith This I will declare brieflie and then I will be so bould as to demand some questions touching your inuisible congregatiō for looke on it I may not because it is not to be seene 101. First therefore if the thing be well considered it is manifest that the predestinate doe professe their faith and thereby do manifest themselues to be the seruants of Iesus Christ and this allso our Sauiour Christ requireth of his seruants Matth. 10.32.33 euery one that shall confesse me before men I allso will confesse him before my father but he that shall denie me before men I will denie him before my father which is in heauen Euerie one that confesseth me before men the sonne of man allso will confesse him before the Angells of God Luke 12. v. 8.9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the Angells of God Herevpon the Martyrs of Iesus Christ which haue bene at all tymes and whereof all Christian Nations haue yeelded store haue openlie in the face of persecution made profession of their faith and thereby they were visible and being Martyrs were allso members of the predestinated Church they were predestinate The predestinate therefore and the visible professors of the faith may be in one and the same Church yea the same man may be predestinate and allso visiblie professe the faith 102. Secondlie it is manifest that the Apostles were visible professors of the faith and therefore members of the visible Church of God and they were allso predestinate and therefore mēbers of the predestinate Church The same men therefore may be visible and predestinate The same Church may be visible and predestinate and consequentlie visibilitie and predestinatiō deuide not the Church into two Churches As I said of the Apostles and Martyrs so I say of the holie Doctors of the Church they did preach and teach visiblie they were knowne farre and neere and were ptedestinate allso whereby it is manifest that the predestinate did professe their faith the same faith with other Catholiques with others in their communion and were visible 103. Thirdlie the Apostolique Church is visible it includes essentiallie publique persons As Apostles and their Successors Apostolicall men for conuersion of Nations Bisshops Pastors Doctors as you knowe by Scripture Now these publike persons are manifestlie visible Pastors to their flocke Bisshops to their Diocese Apostles and Apostolicall men to the Nations they conuert The Apostolicall Chutch therefore is visible And you knowe further that the holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church are one and the same for so it is in the Creede I beleeue one holie Catholique and Apostolicall Church Symb. Cōstant and this Creede you professe that you beleeue ād you put it allso amonge the fundamentalls of your faith The Catholik therefore and holy Church is visible 104. Fourthlie if the Church be the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ and
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But
it hath beene so farre from this that for a thousand yeares together there was a deepe sileÌ„ce in the world and no Protestant sermon heard yea Luther did verie earnestlie listen after such a sermon Luth. de Missa prâ—uata ton 7. but his learned eares could heare none saue onelie from the diuell one and that indeed he hath registred in his writings 115. Hauing entred into the consideration of your inuisible Church I will be bould to looke about me where are your Superintendents how do they exercise their office without being seene Your Ministers of this Church who creates them and how is euerie one a minister or some sheepe and some pastors how do you knowe the pastors from the sheepe the ministers from other men are all Apostles 1. Cor. 12. v. 28.29 are all prophets are all Doctors are all miracles haue all the grace of cures do all speake with toÌ„gues do all interprete who do who doe not how may one knowe how do you knowe v. 27. S. Paul saith some verily God hath set in the Church first Apostles secondlie Prophets thirdlie Doctors next miracles then the graces of doing cures helpes gouerments kinds of tongues Are these things in the inuisible Church and if they be not there how is it the Catholique Church are there tongues in that deepe silence is there gouerment in that confusion are there helpes and cures where no man seeth anothers wants and miseries miracles and none wonder Doctors and no Schollers Prophets and Apostles and no preaching of the word Where are the pulpits where are your communion tables how are the collectioÌ„s made do you meete onelie in the night or in the daie or not at all what calles you together if you meete a signe that may be seene a sound that might be heard and you might be found which is against the nature of a Church inuisible Your assemblies for a thousand yeares together how were they made and where or did none preach all that tyme did no Bisshops gouerne did all beleeue and so long and so ordinarily without preachers how could that be how could your people inuocate in whom they beleeued not how could they beleeue whom they heard not and how could they heare without a preacher Answere for your Church and teach S. Paul something which he knewe not If you admit gouermeÌ„t aÌ„d instruction and order in that Church you grant it to be visible for these things are visible If you denie them you cannot shewe how those your imagined predecessors had any faith and were a Church militant So that you puzzle your owne selfe in this busines and are ouer come without an aduersarie 116. I note it therfore for a particular weakenes in your braine that determining to feine a Church of predecessors you had not so much wit as to inuent a thinge which did not infold a contradiction in it selfe as this doth for being inuisible it hath no preachers for preachers are visible things now where there are no preachers there is no faith where there is no faith there is no Church the Church being a Congregation or Societie of faithfull people therefore in making a Church inuisible you make the same thinge to be a Church and no Church Againe there are no Saincts where there is no sanctitie there is no sanctitie where there is no faith no faith where there is no preaching no preaching where the is no mission Rom. 10.15 no mission where there is no gouerment no gouerment where there are no gouerners And in an inuisible coÌ„panie there are no gouerners therefore froÌ„ the first to the last there are in it no Saincts Notwithstanding it hath nothing else you say but Saincts So that it hath people in it it is a Societie of Saincts if wee beleeue you and yet hath not a Sainct in it which is another contradiction 117. Moreouer this Church of yours hath preached continuallie Protestantisme in all Nations because in all Nations you haue had Saincts if your imagination be admitted and sanctitie is grounded in faith He that â—hall be ashamed of â—â—me and of my words him the sonne of man shall be ashamed of When he â—hall come â—n his Maâ—esty Luke 9. â—6 faith gotten by hearing as I said before yet all this tyme she hath not spoken but was ashamed of her owne faith Now how these two hange together do you iudge If you thinke I doe you wronge in accusing your Church of silence take in hand againe the Argument of the first booke produce euidence of anie one man yours or ours frind or foe ChristiaÌ„ Turke or Athiest that euer heard a Protestant speake in any place of all the world a rome wide ynough in any part of fifteene hundred yeeres before Luther a tyme longe inough or euer since the begining of the world if you would haue a longer space and though this will not serue for a Church of all NatioÌ„s yet will it shewe that you know something more then all your fellowes and that you haue profited a little since you wrotte last As for the credibilitie of your deuice they will beleeue yet another Gospell on your bare word against all the euidence in the world that beleeue this conceipt of yours and euerie yonge Logician that hath heard his master talke of Chimeraes can make as good and ground them as solidlie as you doe for euerie child knoweth that the Church militant is a Societie of men seruing God which men are not meere Spirits but things visible the Societie of theÌ„ allso is a thing visible teaching baptizing ruling conuerting Nations confuting Heresies are visible acts In nullum nomeÌ„ Religionis seu verum seu falsum coagulari homines possunt nisi aliquo signaculorum vel Sacramentorum visibilium consortio colligeÌ„tur S. Aug. li. 19. cont Faust c. 11. and acts of the Church of God Man oweth vnto God visible acts of worshippe and not inuisible only praise sacrifice Sacraments are visible things the word of God is visible yea God comming to raise this Church did exhibite himself heere visible God himself was seene with mens eies as I told you in the second booke and if you be a Christian you beleeue it The Church which you speake of being inuisible can be no Societie and therefore no Church And as it is no Church but a Chimericall non ens so the acts of it proportionablie be negatiue it hath conuerted no Nations it hath confuted no Heresies it hath brought vp no Saincts Before Luther it was in no place it administred no Sacraments it made no Sermons It had no conscience no mouth no face 118. Vnworthie therefore is this fiction of yours to be compared to the Church of God these imaginarie Saints of yours to the Saints of Allmightie God these dombe preachers to the Apostles of Iesus Christ and their Successors this vnsociable societie not daring to appeare or whisper a fore men for many huÌ„dred yeeres to that Church which hath
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
on with your conceipt but wrong not other men The Aethiopians as blacke as they are doe loath and abhorre the communion of your Church and are the more vnwilling to heare of it Luther Respons ad Dialog Syluest Pri. Calu. in Antidot Conc. Tri. sess 6. c. 12. because she is not ashamed to professe that she cānot keepe the cōmaundementes with all the helpe she hath frō God allmightie and cōsequentlie that she cannot for beare blasphemie nor errour nor witchcraft nor adulterie nor murder nor robberie in fine that she cānot possiblie obserue that Minimum legis mandatū onus Aetna grauius Calu. Ibid. which equitie doth require and God commaund And for this among other reasons not Ethiopians onelie but all the rest of the world loathe her and wishe she were retired againe into her hole of inuisibilitie 12. As touching your māner of answearing I wish you to consider that you doe not satisfie our demaund nor euer will by naming such as agree not with vs in some one point or more White Illyricus vnles you prooue likewise that they doe agree with you and be of the religiō which in England you professe For example if you name a mā which denied the Popes primacie Ob. The Papists haue not a Succession of such as they are Answ. l. 2. c. 6. and l. 3. c. 4. as you doe if this man consent not with you in other thinges it is childish to thinke you satisfie our demaund by naming him he may be in other pointes of the same minde with vs or with Arians or with Nestoriās or with Eutichians or Mahometans or Iewes or Athiestes and therfore not a Protestant vnles you admit all kind of men into your communion and will haue the Protestant Church to be the congregation of them all And this too would not serue for the thing wee demaūd is a catalogue or successiō of mē whose religion is the same with yours and currant there in Englād In like mānner if you should name a man which agreed with you in one halfe of your positions and in the other halfe dissented this man were not yours yea lesse then halfe or a quatter or the tenth part is Ynough to diuide a man from communion and from vnitie in beleefe as you may see in S. Epiphanius S. Epiph. op Panar S. Aug. de Haeres tom 6. and S. Augustine That you may the better conceaue me suppose one of your fellowes is become an Arian I aske you whether he be of your religion and whether his religion be currant there in England or not if it be then Arianisme is there currāt though the Roman profession be abhorred if it be not thē a fewe yea one point is ynough to diuide you in religion from that man and him from you Now those men which you bring were each of them contrarie in many pointes as Waldo Berengarius Wickleffe and therefore diuided and distinct in religion frō you Neither will your distinction of points fundamentall and not fundamētall help you here both because those men did differ in your fundamentall ād most essentiall point of Protestancie that is in the matter of Iustification as also because errours in other pointes besides those which you call fundamentall are sufficient to make distinction in religion which is euident and by your selues cānot be denied for you saie that Papistes holde all fūdamētalls and yet their religion is not yours But of this I haue spoked alreadie and neede not repeate it I onelie adde now that a man by your principles may denie euery verse which is in the Bible and obstinatelie too excepting that onelie which is expressed in the three Creedes and Baptisme and the Supper and yet be of the same Church and communion with your selfe And what thinke you of your fellow that saieth further that Arian Churches are allso to be accompted the Churches of God because they hold the foundation of the Gospell If this hold Morton of the Kingd of Isr and the Church p. 94. what makes an heretique what communion doe you refuse what Church among Christians can be false If all the Bible but twelue propositions or there aboutes if the Incarnation if the Trinitie if the Christians God may be denied and the deniers be accompted the Church of God It restes that you saie now that the Turkes are also of the same Church and religion with your selues 13. A like obseruatiō to the former I would haue you to reflect on whē our mē demaūd White what Church wee went out of and what precedent Church did oppose it selfe to our religion and contradict it Wee doe not aske whether any man euer did oppose any part of our beleefe wee know there were such there were some which did oppose the deitie of our Sauiour some the Deitie of the holy Ghost some the real Presence some Images c. this wee know but the demaūd requires proofe of a Protestāt Church or any other if you be wearie of defēding your owne which being before ours did examine iudge and cōdemne our religion If your men will giue satisfaction to the questiō they must answeare this they must assigne a visible Church allwayes extant which did still condemne our religion whensoeuer wee appeared and being one in it selfe was still against vs at all tymes when wee were Your last answere is that the Church of God was all infected with erroures for many hundred yeares which errours were such notwithstanding saie you as destroied not her essence white And this conceipt you declare in the exāple of a leprouse mā For your Church I admit easilie that it is infected with errours The Church of God is not as you shall heare in the third booke where that matter shall be examined in the meane tyme I repeate the former argument and put it thus Either all Christians before Luther did erre in Matters of religiō Arg. or some onelie or none at all If none at all did erre Then why would you mend that which by your cōfession was not before amisse why trouble you the world to bringe in a newe religion without which you confesse it was well before If all of them did erre in matters of religion then your religion did not come downe to you from the Apostles by a succession continuall as you pretend your faith and religion was not alwayes in the world the Gospell was not sincearlie and incorruplie professed at all tymes I adde further if al did erre then you haue vndertaken a taske vnpossible in your owne iudgment in offering to maintaine a perpetuall existence or being of your religion and you quarrell with all that went before And where then was the all teaching spiritte did he mistake the true doctrine or did Christ breake his word If some onelie did erre and not all giue vs a Catalogue of some of thē who did not erre let vs heare their names the place of their aboade the profession they were
of S. Paul The chalice of benediction which wee do blesse is it not the communication of the bloud of Christ and the bread which wee breake is it not the participation of the body of our lord I answeare that our doctrine is not here denied but affirmed for the Apostle teacheth here importing withall by his manner of speach the doctrine to be so well and so commonly knowne that none can denie it he teacheth I say that the breade and the cuppe are the communication of the body and bloude of our lord The reason whereof is cleere because in those formes are exhibited reallie the body and the bloude of Christ Whereas in your sense there were no reall receauing giuing or participating of the body and bloud of Christ but of bakers breade and meere wine And therefore to the Apostle the Corinthians if they had bene of your Religion might haue answeared no it is not any communication participation or communion of bloude and flesh but of naturall meate and drinke If you stick at the word breade you are dull for the words annexed to it doe interprete fully what breade it is and before you haue the word applied and the sense of it inculcated in the Sixt of S. Iohn where our Sauiour saith the breade which I will giue is my flesh Io. 6. v. 51.32.58.48 my father giues you true bread from heauen I am the breade of life c. where I thinke you are not so seÌ„sles as to take the word breade for that which bakers make More ouer this flesh or body of Iesus Christ is in the forme of bread in the Church as it was allso in his owne haÌ„d wheÌ„ he gaue it uÌ„to his disciples aÌ„d therefore after the phrase of Scripture it is called breade Mar. 16. Act. 1. as Angells appearing in meÌ„s likenes are there called meÌ„ 30. Fourthlie whereas wee say that it is not necessary the publique seruice be said in the vulgar tongue You oppose those words of S. Paul If I pray in a tongue to wit 1. Cor. 14. v. 14. which I vnderstand not my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Answ The meaning is that I haue not in that case the benefit of profiting my soule or minde with contemplation of the thinge yet neuer the lesse my Spirit is eleuated and ascendeth vnto God which is the substance and essence of prayer and this is nothing against vs. You vrge againe if thou blesse in Spirit how shall he say amen which doth supplie the place of the vulgar v. 16. since he knoweth not what thou sayest Answ The meaning is if thou speake some praise of God the hearers not knowing whether it be good or bad he that supplies the place of the vulgar cannot say amen to it Neither is this against vs for our coÌ„mon prayers or liturgies are both knowne and approoued by the Church to whom this approbation doth belonge and this all do know and therefore the clarke or he that supplieth the place of vulgar may boudly sâ—â— Amen Moreouer the Apostle doth not censure as ill that blessing in Spirit which you do vrge but sayeth expresly that he doth giue thankes well which doth so v. 17. If you say the contrary theÌ„ you coÌ„tradict the scripture not wee De imputa iustitia nihil noruÌ„t VValdenses Luth. colâ—oq c. de Suermeris Coce l. 8. â— 4. 31. The fift place is to shewe by Scripture that iustifyiÌ„g faith is that speciall faith whereby you beleeue that your sinnes are all forgiuen and you iust by an extrinsecall imputation of the iustice inherent in Iesus Christ This which is the ground and soule of your Religion wee denie Your proofe is Abraham beleeued God and it was imputed vnto him to iustice Rom. 4.3 v. 16. And therefore of faith that according to grace the promise may be firme Answ This is nothing against vs nor for you for the question is of the Obiect of this faith whether it were the remission of sinnes to him that beleeued they were remitted as you interprete it From the 16. v. to the end or somthing els Reade further and you shall finde in the same Chapter that the Obiect or thing he beleeued was that God would make him the father of many Nations and that notwithstanding his owne age and the sterilitie of his wife God was able to performe this promise Of your Obiect there is not one word neither is it to be fouÌ„d any where in all the Bible The Obiect of Iustifying faith if you beleeue Scripture is the Incarnation the Passion Resurrection and other revealed Mysteries Who is he that ouercometh the world he that beleeueth that Iesus Christ is the sonne of God â— Io. 5. v. 5. Rom. 10.9 If thou confesse with thy mouth our lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him from the deade thou shalt be saued Without faith it is vnpossible to please God for Heb. 11.6 he that coÌ„meth to God must beleeue that he is and is a rewarder to them that seeke him This is the Obiect of iustifying faith and the second part you do not beleeue because it implieth a merite in the beleeuer 32. The sixt place is about communion of lay people in both kinds You would haue it a diuine precept for the lay people I admit a diuine precept for the Priests who do consecrate and denie that there is any such whereby the lay people are commanded to receaue the Sacrament in both kinds Your place is Drinke ye all of this Mat. 26.27 But this place doth not import a precept or commaund for the lay people to receaue the blood for the speach is not directed to the lay people but to the Apostles And the word all is referd to them and was verified by them This is manifest by the words of the Gospell He gaue to his Disciples and said take and eate ibid. v. 26.27.28 this is my body And taking the chalice he gaue thankes and gaue to them the same disciples saying drinke ye all of this for this is my bloode c. And S. Marke relating it saith and taking the chalice giuing thanks he gaue to them and they all dranke of it If all dranke of it theÌ„ by all the Apostles are meant onely for all men were not there neither haue all Christians drunke of it In this therefore you haue produced no diuine precept for all men in their owne persons to receaue the blood 33. The seaueÌ„th place is to prooue the Scripture to be iudge of CoÌ„trouersies aÌ„d sufficient of it selfe without helpe of TraditioÌ„ Wee hold the necessity of TraditioÌ„ too â— Tim. 3.16 The place is All scripture inspired of God is profitable to teach to argue to correct to instruct in iustice that the maÌ„ of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Answ This is not against vs wee graunt tath it is profitable Wee denie that it is
all sufficieÌ„t These two you must distinguish the first is here affirmed the second is not There must be meanes to knowe which is Scripture which Booke which Chapter which verse and to know the sense of it And herein wee must be directed by the Spirit of the Church Wee must take the Scripture from her hands and the meaning of it from her mouth Harke what the same Apostle saith in an other place 2. Thess 2.15 Hold the Traditions you haue learned whether it be by word or by our Epistle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But of this you shall heare more here after It is sufficient here that no place of Scripture doth contradict the doctrine of the Church and your labour to prooue it is all vaine for that Spirit which directed the writers of Gods word doth allso direct the Church to the sense of it and therefore it is vnpossible for any man to finde Opposition betwixt the Church and Gods word 34. Stay now let vs looke on the contradictions all together in could blood before we goe The first God forbids to giue soueraigne honour to any but to him selfe Papists say an inferior and relatiue honour may be giuen to the pictures of Christ and his Saincts The secoÌ„d Antichrist is opposite vnto and extolled aboue all that is called God and sits in the Temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God Papists The Pope is Christs Vicar here vppon earth and Pastor of his Churth The third The Eucharisticall bread is the participation of the body of our lord Papists it is not the participation of bakers breade but of the true body of Christ in forme of breade The fourth If I pray in a toÌ„gue my Spirit prayeth but my minde is without fruite Papists It is not necessarie that Priests say Masse in the vulgar tongue The fift Abraham beleeued God that he should be Father of many Nations and it was imputed to him to iustice Papists Iustifying faith is not that whereby N. N. beleeues his sinnes are forgiuen him The sixt The Apostles were commanded all to drinke the cuppe Papists The lay people are not commanded to drinke the cuppe The seuenth All Scripcure is profitable to teach c that the man of God may be perfect instructed to euery good worke Papists Traditions are to be receaued the Scripture is not by itselfe all sufficient This is the substance of that which hath bene here discussed Good logicians be modest or go peripatize with your Aristotle some where els I sit and you stand in the same schoole are contradictories according to the rule by which our nimble Masons do builde their newe Church but A man is iustified by works and not by faith onely A man is not iustified by works but by faith onely are not contradictorie though you meane workes done by grace and in grace a litle newe morter may dawbe them both together for if ye marke the one of them is true in the iudgment of S. Iames the Apostle and the other is true in the iugdment of Mr. Iohn Caluin and so they are not secundum idem THE FIFT CHAPTER Other places of Scripture are answered 35. BEing past the monstrouse Argument which thought to affright me wich the multitude of his heades I was going on to cite Scripture against you but an other Chimaera meets me in the Way Iohn White in his preface to the way had made his bragge that ProtestaÌ„ts haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on their side And being to make this good in his Defence I Whites Defense â— 8. n. 4. hath pickt out such places as he thought of most aduantage and most cleere Parte of them are the same with some of those I haue allready spoken of in the former Chapter The rest I will runne ouer briefly beare with me if I be longer in this point then you desire The first An Angell would not be adoared by S. Iohn but refused it saying see thou doe not Apoc. 1â— 10 22 v. 9â— I aÌ„ thy fellowe seruaÌ„t adore God The Apostle againe another tyme fell downe to adore the Angell and it was againe answeared as before Answ It is cleere by this text that the Angell refused to be adored by S. Iohn and this wee beleeue But it is not said here that it is ill to adore an Angell yea in the iudgment of S. Iohn it was conuenient and being told of it he still beleeued it to be conuenient for he did offer notwithstanding the first refusall to doe it the second tyme. The place therefore is against you Neither is there any difficultie in the matter for S. Iohn might well offer it and the Angell considering how deare the Apostle was to the Sonne of God and lord of Angells and how greate his Apostolicall dignitie was might well refuse it So v. Bede S. Anselme and others vppon this place Luke 17.10 36. The second When you haue done all things that are commanded you say wee are vnprofitable seruants wee haue done that which wee ought to doe This is brought to exclude all merite from our actions donne by and in grace But it comes to short first because here is speach onely of things commanded Matth. 19.21 â— Cor. 7. v. v. 25.38.40 now there are other actions not commanded and by those at leaste wee may merite notwithstanding this sentence Secondly God by creation is Lord of all his creatures and men thereby are naturallie bound to serue him 2. Pet. â—â— Iohn 1.12 By grace men are made partakers of the diuine nature and are sonnes of God and he their Father Wherefore if as seruants they could not merite as by nature indeed they cannot as children they might Seruants are vnprofitable if their masters profit come not from their seruice howsoeuer they may be peraduenture good husbands for theÌ„ selues And this place hath nothing to the contrary Thirdly our labour is vnprofitable to God our lord and Master for he is neuer the better for that wee doe being infinitelie happie in him selfe but it may be profitable to our selues and this is not here denied 37. The 3. Blessed are the dead which die in our lord from hence forth now saith the Spirit that they rest from their labours for their works follow them This place is brought against Purgatorie or paines after this life Apoc. 14.13 suffered by such as depart in the grace of God But it is so farre from being cleere to this purpose S. Aug. l. 20 Ciuit. c. 9. that it rather helpes our cause Some with S. Augustine vnderstand the place of Martyrs and Martyrs instantlie goe to heauen wherefore in that way there is no difficultie S. Ansel vppon this place in the words Others with S. Anselme interprete from hence that is from the Resurrection or generall Iudgment and they are grounded in the discourse of the Chapter This way hath no difficultie neither for all immediately after that tyme are
euen as he christ is iust Moreouer you cannot deny that the Apostles and many other haue had charitie or loue Rom. 13 10 and loue is vitall and inherent and is the fulnes of the lawe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ibid. v. 9. Rom. 5.5 and He that loueth his neighbour hath Fulfilled the lawe The Charitie of God is powered foorth in our harts by the holie Ghost which is giuen vs. Wee beleeue that a man which hath charitie may by Gods grace auoid sinne You say No Lut. in 2. Gal. calu de Lib. ar l. 1. all his actions you say are sinnes The scripture 1. Io 3.9 Sinne. eschued 1. Io. 5.18 â— habit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euery one that is borne of God committeth not sinne because his seede abideth in him and againe euery one which is borne of God sinneth not but the generation of God preserueth him and the wicked one toucheth him not 51. Libertie or power to make choise of good to Saluation by the assistance of Gods grace aÌ„d to eschewe that which is bad Allso to make choise of the better in good things occurring wee acknowledge You denie Lut. art 36. Cal. CoÌ„f. fâ—d p. 108. 2. Inst c. 3. Deut. 30. v. 15.19 Libertie The scripture I haue set before thee this day life and good aÌ„d coÌ„trariwise death and euill that thou maist loue our lord thy God aÌ„d walke in his waies aÌ„d keepe his coÌ„maÌ„dements c. I haue proposed vnto you life and death blessing and cursing Choose therefore life that both thou maiest liue and thy seede 1. Cor. 7. â—7 And the Apostle He that hath determined in his hart being setled not hauing Necessitie but hauing Power of his owne Will and hath iudged this in his hart to keepe his virgin doth well Therefore he that ioyneth his virgin in Matrimonie doth well and he that ioyneth her not doth better Let me adde one more out of Genesis Gen. 4 7. Vide S. Aug. l. 15. de ciuit c 7. Ps 118. v. 112. S. Ierom â— 8. Sept. ibid. 1. Cor. 9 2â— The lust thereof shall be vnder thee and thou shalt haue Dominion ouer it wee beleeue that good works may be done in conteÌ„plation of a reward or crowne You say No. Luth. in Fest OO SS Calu. in Antid sess 6. c. 16. Dauid I haue inclined my hart to do thy iustifications foreuer for Reward aÌ„d the The Apostle Euery one that striueth for maistrie refraineth himselfe from all things and they certes that they may receaue a corruptible crowne but wee an incorruptible wee beleeue that meÌ„ haue reward for their works giuen them by Gods iustice You say No. Luth in 2. Gal. Caluin in 4. Rom. Matt. 16.27 Reward and Merit Apoc. 22.12 The Scripture The sonne of man shall come in the glorie of his Father with his Angells and then will he Render to euerie one according to his works Behold I come quicklie and my Reward is with me to Render to euery man according to his works Thou sawest a fewe names in Sardis which haue not defiled their garmente and they shall walke with me in whites Apoc. 3.4 because they are Worthie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because they merit and deserue it 2. Tim. 4.8 And the Apostle There is laid vs for me a Crowne of Iustice which our lord will Render to me in that day a iuste Iudge and not onelie to me but to them allso that loue his comming Wee beleeue that a man may increase in Iustice according to that in the Reuelation he that is iust let him be iustified yet and let the holie be sanctified yet Apoc. 22.11 And wee beleeue that men are not iustified by faith onely Ia 2.24 workes iustifie but allso by works done by the Assistance and helpe of Gods grace You say By faith only Luth. in 2. Gal. Cal. in Antid sess 6. c. 9. The Scripture A man is iustified by works and not by faith onelie 52. VVee beleeue that vppon S. Peeter by grace made a Rocke the Church was built You say no. Luth. in 16. Matth. Caluin ibid. The Scripture Mat. 16.18 Primacie Thou art Peeter a rocke and vppon this rocke will I build my Church In the Syriacke in which laÌ„guage our Sauiour spake the thinge is yet cleerer for in both places for that wee reade Peeter and Rocke is the same word Cephas thus thou art Cephas and vppon this Cephas will I build my Church Moreouer the circumstances of the text and the connexion of the speache doe conuince that the Church was built on Peeter and the Fathers vnpartiall Iudges so vnderstood it witnesse your owne men for here I am not to alleage Antiquity Dâ—naeus Dan. Conâ— 3.16.277 pessimè Zanc. de Eccles c. 9. c. 8. col 94 The Fathers interpreted naughtilie those words of Christ Matth. 16. Thou art Peeter c. of the person of Peeter Zanchius another greate Protestant The Fathers exposition vppon this Rocke that is vppon Peeter is not admitted and Luther the great Apostle of Protestancie Here all Lut. in 2. Pet. c. 5. fol 490. either Fathers or Doctors as many as hetherto haue interpreted Scriptures haue stambled as when that of Matth. 16. Thou art Peeter c. They interprete of the Pope Wee beleeue that one of the Apostles peculiarly was made Pastor of the Church You say No. Luth. in Assert art 25. Calu. 4. Inst c. 6. The Scripture Peeter feede My Sheepe Io. 21.18 Wee beleeue that the Apostles and their Successors had power to forgiue and to retaine sinnes You say No. Calu. 3. Inst c. 3. 4. c. 19. Luther here so ouerlasheth oÌ„the affirmatiue side that in his booke de Clauibus he auoucheth the keies to apertaine to all Christians equallie euery way Omnibus modis Luthers Ghostly Father And in another place de abrog mi. pr. he houldes that if the Deuil should absolue it were valid Dum vitant stulti vitia c. In the scripture power to forgiue sinnes I do not say to declare them forgiuen or hidden and not imputed as you mince it but to forgiue and detaine Sinnes is giuen to Men only and to some Io 20. v. 22 Absolution not to all The scripture Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them and whose you shall retaine they are retained Wee beleeue that power was giuen to S. Peeter and to the Church to release men by way of indulgence from temporall punishmeÌ„t remaining due for sinne You say No. Luth. Cap. Babil Caluin l. vnic Inst cap. 9. The scripture VVhatsoeuer thou Peeter shalt binde on earth shall be bound allso in the heauens Matt 16 19 Indulgences and VVhatsoeuer thou shalt loose in earth it shall be loosed allso in the heauens 53. In the matter of the Eucharist the ProtestaÌ„t schoole is diuided about the reall Presence and you follow Caluine So do Iewell Perkins Rainolds Wittaker BilsoÌ„ White c. And howsoeuer some of your
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
Pastors alwayes exercising their holy function and Gods word in their mouth euer for this Church he doth inquire shewe him this Church and he will trouble you no longer for the rest he shall haue there A third shift is to send him to the primitiue Church and to tell him that indeede then was this communion with all Nations this ample Church which the Scripture doth commend was then but since it decaied and now you are building it againe This iourney were to longe for him he is not able to reade bookes otherwise he would not trouble you nor your Congregation at all for he should easilie find the thing himselfe wherefore that he may be directed by the iudgment of other men better seene in that busines he desires to know which aÌ„d where is the preseÌ„t Catholique Church and by that Church he will be directed about former tymes he desires therefore D. Luther to tell him where the Catholique Church is now for such a perpetuall one the Bible speakes of This question must be answered the man that doth aske it may be any that is in England for example and it might haue bene answered in Lurhers time who was your Master for which reason I tie the question to that tyme for the more perspicuitie and leaue the man with you to answer for your Master 14. Your fellowes finding here no way to flie the question do confesse that the knowne Church of the world in Luthers tyme that which had communion with the Pope was the Catholique Church and labour to finde her in errour and Apostasie So White Field and other of your companions so Luther so Caluin Of errours I will speake hereafter I looke now for the Church only because this is to be found first before we dispute of further matters And thus I vrge That Church which all the world doth say is the catholique church wee likewise Arg. 1 if wee will not be ridiculouslie sensles must beleeue to be the Catholique church as wee must beleeue that is Rome which the world VVee professe the Church of Rome it selfe in all ages to haue ben the visibâ—e Church of God So white Defence c. 41. in the name of his fellowes wee most firmely beleeue all the Churches in the VVorld wherein our Fathers liued and died to haue ben the true Churches of God in which vndoubtedly saluation was to be found Field Church l. 3. c 8 and c. 47. Wee neuer doubted but that the Churches wherein those holy men S. Bernard S. Dominick c. did liue and die were the true Churches of God and held the sauing profession of heauenly truth See him allso in the sixt Chap. of the same Booke Wee confesse that all Christian good is in the Papacie and that from thence it came downe to vs. Luth. Epist cont Anabapt ibid. I say further that in the Papacie is the true Christianitie yea the true kernell of Christianity and vppon the 28. of Genes Wee Confesse the Church to be among the Papists for they haue Baptisme Absolution the text of the Gospell and there are many godly among them Wee deny not that the Churches remaine vnder the Popes tyraenny but they are such as with sacrilegious impietie he hath profaned c. Caluin 4. Inst c. 3. and vppon 2 Thessall 2. he confesseth the Church coÌ„municating with the Pope to be Temple and Sanctuary of God sayth is Rome and that London which the world sayth is London But the whole world sayth that the company of Christians in communion with the See of Rome is the catholique church for so your fellowes so your Masters so wee so Iewes so Pagans and no other can be found wherefore since Gods word and promise of a perpetuall and vniuersall Church must needs be true wee must beleeue that it is this 15. Moreouer the Religion which you call Papistrie is now spred ouer the face of the earth in allmost all Nations and was confessedly the generall Religion of the christian world before Luther for many hundred Arg. 2 yeares together wherefore this Religion is catholique aÌ„d this companie the catholique church of God You answere first that the GreciaÌ„s agreed not with vs. But this makes not for Protestancie And moerouer in your sense it is false for though they haue not beene coÌ„tinuallie in our communion all this tyme yet in this time they haue beene in our communion And so haue the ArmeniaÌ„s aÌ„d others too which is all that I haue said and sufficient for to demonstrate that our communioÌ„ hath beene catholique in the tyme I haue spokeÌ„ of And if you will pleade for theÌ„ that allso their Schisme hath bene somtymes thus catholique I answere as before that Grecisme was neuer generally the faith of Christendome nor any other faith whatsoeuer but that only which wee professe not the Grecian I say not the Aethiopian not the Armenian not the Berengarian the Waldesian the Lutheran the Caluinian none at all and herein the Histories of all Countries and the memories of all Nations beare me witnesse Secondly you say that Mahomet hath seduced a great part of the world and so restrayned the latitude which wee pretend Whereunto I answere first notwithstanding Mahomete and his coÌ„panie that the communion of the christian world hath beene with vs and with no other which is all I desire I answere secondly that our communitie hath gained more in the meane tyme then euer the PagaÌ„ tooke away by an infinite increase both in this old and allso in the newe world Witnesse all those Nations in Europe which haue beene conuerted since that Impostor came besides the dailie and admirable increase in India Iaponia Brasile China and other places You answere thirdlie that all thosâ— worlds of people haue beene in errour But this is impertinent for here I looke only for the church that wee may finde it and when we haue found it we will inquire then whether it hath erred or no. And that this is the Catholique Church is euident because no other is or hath beene in the generall communion of Nations but only this nor euer any for the latitude of communion equall to it 16. I goe now futther and prescribe against you for our church and Religion thus That Arg. 3 Faith which in the Christian world hath beene generally beleeued to be diuine Quod vniuersa tenet Ecclesia nec Concilijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur S. Aug. l 4. de Bapt. c. 24. and looking vpwards towardes the Apostles tyme no other origen of it can be found is verilie to be beleeued to be such But such is the faith of this coÌ„munitie for it hath beene the generall beleefe of the Christian World as I haue shewed and that no other origen of it can be found I prooue cleerly because whensoeuer you or any other begin later we shewe easilie that it was before And this because you persist without ground in your
manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
you beleeue not this how do you beleeue the Reall Presence how do you beleeue the words of Iesus Christ saying of the Sacrament in his hād this is my body and of the Chalice Mat. 26. v. 27.28 this is my bloode if that thing were his body thē was his body in the shape of breade and at once in diuers places If you say that thing was not his body you contradict him you do not reallie beleeue the presence to the signes I doe not say to your imagination but to the signes this reallie you beleeue not 34. As for your oppositions they are sent backe with this answere that nature indeede cannot effect those things they are out of the spheare of her actiuitie but the power of God is infinite and the things in them selues include no contradiction wherefore God can effect them And being grounded in his word wee beleeue them without more adoe Man is not able with his wit to discouer all the wayes of God or to comprehend the whole obiect of his power Our knowledge wee gather from those fewe things wee see or perceaue by some exteriour sēse ād the perfection of allmightie God is infinitelie aboue all this He knoweth more then wee doe and being truth by nature cannot lie wherefore if he tell vs any thing though wee vnderstand it not wee must beleeue it Faith is an argumēt of things not appearing Heb. 11. that in the Deitie be three persons each distinct reallie from the other two yet all reallie the same God is a greate mysterie it is obscure our vnderstanding cannot reach it but faith giuing creditte vnto God who saith it is so doth beleeue it that our Sauiour is the secōd person in this holie Trinitie cōsubstātiall to God the Father is a Mysterie which nature wonders at yet faith beleeues this too because God who cannot deceaue or be deceaued doth auouch it Wee trust his knowledge and take his word Nature is Gods worke she hath not the perfection of her maker and therefore must not compare and equall her selfe with him in vnderstanding or cast an imputation of Errour on all that is not within the circuite of her acquaintaince God knowes more then she doth and therefore she may learne Schollers that are ingenuouse beleeue their Masters ād so come to knowledge whereas those who beleeue nothing are euer rude and vnlearned A Scholler heareth his Master say the Sūne is bigger then the Earth and beleeuing falls to learne the demonstration The clowne takes measure of the obiect with his eies Stellat primae magnitudinis cēties septuagies maiores terrâ asserūt Astronomi and esteeming it no bigger then the Cheese he cutte yesterdaie when he came from plough will not beleeue the philosophers nor the Mathematicians nor all the bookes in the world before his owne eies not he no that he won not Wee are in the Schoole of Religion our Professors and Instructors are the Pastors vnder our great Master Iesus Christ who cleerly doth see the truth of all he doth auouch You rudely take measure of things as in your sillie imagination they appeare making sensible things there or the short knowledge you haue of them the rule and compasse of all Being so denying in effect that God is able to doe any thing further then you can direct him as if in your heade were as much Art as God hath and your knowledge the full compasse and direction of Gods omnipotence 35. But what is the thing you stumble at Substance of it selfe is not determined to place it hath this determinatiō by accidents by Quantitie Localitie Vbication If God bestowe on it supernaturallie two Sacramentall Vbications at once it is at once in two places Sacramentallie if a thousand it is in a thousand places Sacramētall Existencie whatsoeuer it be called as Vbicatiō Presence or by what other name you will is an Accident and this Accident is the formall reason or cause of being present vnder the dimensiōs in the roome of Breade It is supernaturall to the body and God hath power to produce many of these at once 36. You replie that the very same thing cannot without contradiction be at once present in many dimensions without being deuided This is false the thing may haue indiuiduation or vnitie in it selfe and by it selfe and yet be in many dimensiōs too The soule of man is one and indiuisible and yet in the dimensions of all the members of the body That which is in the heade is in the feete not a peece for the soule hath no peeces it is indiuisible but it is all in each part God is heere and in heauen too and yet not deuided though betwixt this place and heauen there be many other things 37. Againe you replie that the same bodie cannot be at once in many mouthes But why not if it be at once in many dimensions The foule an indiuisible thing is naturallie at once in many members it is at once in the heade hands feete fingers and toes and in each member all ād this without any contradictiō or diuision why thē may not God whose power is infinite supernaturallie put one and the same Bodie at once in many mouthes It is no contradiction He may doe it Measure not his power by your witte The thing may be aboue your conceipt no meruaile it is supernaturall The existence of the sowle in many members all is naturall Tell me first how this is done It is in the heade and in the feete yet hath no distance in it selfe It is in manie fingers yet one It is in euerie part of an extended bodie and yet not extended it is in the hart and in the sides in the tongue and in the mouth that is round aboute it it is in the heade that doth compasse the braine and it is within the braine all vnles in your braine peraduenture it be not Shall I now argue out of this that it is within and without and round aboute it selfe if I meant to trouble an vnlearned reader and turne his braine as you doe I would When you haue made him vnderstād these things touching the naturall existence of his sowle he will be able to answere all that you can saie touching the supernaturall existence of the bodie of Iesus Christ in many mouthes and if he doth not yet vnderstand that being naturall no maruaile if he doth not vnderstand this Mysterie it being supernaturall 38. The other peece of your difficultie is that a bodie is naturallie extended and a mās bodie fills a greate place therefore it cannot be within that little roome I answere that substance of it selfe fills no place but by an Accident called Situall extension or Localitie as by it selfe it is not visible but by ā Accidēt Colour These Accidēts are distinct from the Substance they are not Substance If God take away the Colour or will not let it mooue the eie the substance is not seene if God take away the Localitie
donne It is not common bread it is not breade it is not that which nature made The Fathers breade is made the bodie of Christ that in the Sacrament is flesh it is the flesh of Christ made of bread the nature is changed nature it selfe is changed it is changed by Gods omnipotencie it is transelemented The senses may be deceaued beleeue theÌ„ not beleeue the words of Christ It is not breade though the tast esteeme it so it is changed not in shape but in nature it is the flesh which suffered for vs that which did hange vppon the crosse the price of our redemption It is the Lord of Angells he is heere on earth and thou receauest him He is sacrificed on the Altar the Sonne of God is againe sacrificed for vs the LaÌ„be that taketh away the sinnes of the world is offered in sacrifice by Priests without slaughtering Wee offer an vnbloody sacrifice in the Church it is offered euery where it is the same which Christ offered The victime is dispenced from the Altar wee doe eate the lambe entire Christ he is the feast the Angells tremble when they behold that wherwith wee are fed Christ is worshipped on the Altar wee adore the flesh of Christ in the mysteries the mysticall signes are adored as beiÌ„g that they are beleeued to be That in the Chalice is not wine it is blood it is that which did issue out of the side of our Sauiour VVee drinke blood wee drinke blood with our mouthes it is powered into our mouthes that which faith beleeueth the same wee receaue with our mouth wee receaue the bodie and blood of Iesus Christ with our mouth into our bodies into our members So the Fathers Our B. Sauiour This is my body this is my blood I conclude with S. Hilarie S. Hilar. l. 2 de Trinit There is no place left of doubting of the truth of the flesh and blood for now both by our Sauiours profession and our beleefe it is trulie flesh and truelie blood And these being receaued and drunke do bringe to passe that wee be in Christ and CHRIST IN VS THE EIGTH CHAPTER Of Transubstantiation 56. IN the Councell of Trent is defined the conuersion of breade and wine into the bodie and blood of Christ which conuersion is there and in the Lateran Councell termed by a proper name transubstantiation To these Councells and to the AuncieÌ„t Fathers aboue cited you oppose a fewe obscure sentences One out of an Epistle of one Iohn of ConstaÌ„tinople falslie attributed to S. Chrysostome Another out of one Gelasius whom to make your argument seeme the stronger you stile Pope but falslie as Baronius and others haue demonstrated against your Caluin The third out of Theodoret a knowne Aduersarie of your cause Ep. ad Caes Mon. 57. The first Chrysostome saith the nature of the breade remaines Answere It is false sainct Chrysostome saith expreslie it is changed as you shall heare anon The Epistle which you cite is a refutation of Eutichianisme which beganne many yeares after S. Chrysostome was deade Chrysostomus videtur traÌ„substantiationoÌ„ confirmare nam ita scrible moÌ„ vidos paneÌ„ num vinuÌ„ num sicut reliqui tibi in secessum vadunt absit nec sic cogites nam sicut cera c. Magdeb cent 5. c. 4. col 517. the Author of it is also against you for he saith in the same place that there are not in the Sacrament of the Eucharist two bodies but one and that one the bodie of the soÌ„ne of God This man you see was not yours in this point his doctrine take it all is not curraÌ„t among you for if there be in the Eucharist onlie One bodie and this One the bodie of the sonne of God then breade in substance is not there because the bodie of Christ and naturall breade be not one and the same bodie by the nature he meaneth the proprietie or naturall qualitie of the breade which is allso called the nature and this doth remaine 58. The second Gelasius saith De Duab. naturis the substance or nature of breade doth not leaue to be Answere The meaning of this man is that it is not annihilated but the substance is turned into another thing and so as it remaines not in it selfe for it is turned but in the proprietie or proper accidents tast colour c. All this the same Author teacheth in the verie same place in these words they the substance of breade and wine do passe into a Diuine substance the holie Ghost effecting it yet remaining in the proprietie of their nature wherefore this maÌ„ whosoeuer he be is noe ProtestaÌ„t in this for he that holds the substance of breade and wine to be conuerted by the power of God into a Diuine substance the bodie and blood of Christ is no meere Figurist nor of your Schoole but this Author did old it as you finde in his owne words therefore he was not a Protestant as you are Theodor. Dial. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 manent enim in prioris substantiae figura forma or manent enim in riri esentia c. Idem Dial 2 Idem transsubstantiationem videtur â—apere quod Theodoretusscribit sicut ergo Symbola c post innocationem 59. The third Theodoret saith our Sauiour deliuering the SacrameÌ„t called his bodie breade aÌ„d that which is in the Cuppe he called his blood he chaÌ„ged the names aÌ„d gaue his bodie the name which belonged to the signe and to the signe the name which belonged to his bodie Answere Reade further and you meete the solution of your difficultie The reason of the change of names was because he would haue such as partake the diuine sacraments not to heede the nature of those things which are seene the signes but for the change of names to beleeue allso the change that is made hy grace You replie out of another place the mysticall signes after consecration depart not from their nature but abide still in their former substance and figure and forme and may be seene and touched as before Answere It is true that the signes are not changed for those are Accidents those remaine but the substance whithin the signes or Accidents is changed The things are chaÌ„ged by reason of that which is interiour and within they are not changed by reason of that which is exteriour and without exposed to the sense mutantur alia fiuÌ„ c. Magd. cent 5. co 517. Ibidem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Theodoret proceeding saith they are vnderstood to be that they are made that is the bodie and blood of Christ and are beleeued and adored as beiÌ„g the things they are beleeued to be No man beleeues that breade is flesh No man doth beleeue these propositions to be true breade is a maÌ„s bodie breade is flesh flesh is breade No maÌ„ adoreth breade Now the Mysteries Theodoret saith are adored as being indeed the things which they are beleeued to be