Subterfuge for we have still an Argument left to overturn the whole pretended Reformation See it taken from the very Principles laid by themselves The word Church ought to be taken in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith as it is naturally taken in a Fundamental Article of the Christian Religion else this Confession of Faith would not be conformable as it pretends to the Holy Scripture Now in this Confession of Faith the word Church is taken for a visible Society this Proposition is acknowledg'd in the Synod of Gap as we just now saw 'T is thus then that the word Church is naturally taken in Holy Scripture and in the Creed for a visible Church and the Term Catholick or Vniversal put in the Creed Man Ans q. 1. as Mr. Claude confesses to distinguish the whole Body of the Church truly Christian spread over the whole Earth from all false Churches and all particular Churches instead of rendring the Church invisible makes her so much the more visible as it more visibly separates her from all false Churches and puts in her Bosom all the particular Churches so visible and so remarkable by their common Profession of Faith and their common Government The Eleventh REFLEXION On Mr. Claude's own acknowledging the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister BUT without disputing any farther we need only 〈◊〉 to Mr. Claude and 〈◊〉 what he grants us in his Manuscript Answer concerning the Churches perpetual Visibility And would to GOD I could here transcribe all this Work There would be seen in it many things very favourable to our Doctrin which I cannot well make understood till it shall be publick But 't is not for me to publish it and I am contend to transcribe at length forasmuch as it is necessary the Passages you are going to see such as I found them in the Duke of Chevreuses Manuscript own'd as I have said by Mr. Claude himself Now if he 〈◊〉 found to speak of the Church after a manner new in the 〈…〉 this mâ—st not be wondred at for two Reasons The first because 't is true he has taught in a manner the same Doctrin in his other 〈◊〉 thâ— he has 〈◊〉 explicated it more fully and 〈◊〉 order thâ—â—â— over The second because he pretends to say nothing new a 〈◊〉 we ought to rejoyce at there being nothing more desirable 〈◊〉 to see the Number of the Principles and Articles on which we may agree increase Let us enter then with all our heart into this 〈◊〉 Design let us 〈◊〉 in what Mr. Claude agrees with us and let us reâ—â—â—â— his Doctrin in the 〈◊〉 Order thâ—â— he 〈◊〉 it in his third and fourth Question and afterwards in his eleven Consequences What I find at first is that 't is manifest that thâ— the 〈◊〉 Church be mixt with the 〈◊〉 ends and 〈◊〉 Confession 〈◊〉 ceases not to be visible in the mixture as the good 〈◊〉 with the Three in one and the 〈◊〉 Fields and as the good 〈◊〉 with the 〈◊〉 in one and the same 〈◊〉 This goes well let no proceed This Mixture hinders indeed the just Discernment of Persons but it hinders not the Discernment or Distinction of the Orders of Persons even with certainty We know not certainly who are in particular true Believers nor who are Hypocrites but we know certainly that there are true Believers as there are Hypocrites which is sufficient to make the Visibility of the true Church I hear this with joy assuredly we shall advance Mr. Claude gives it us already for manifest that there shall be always a visible Body of which one may say There are the true Believers I continue to read his Answer and I find that he blames me for imputing to the Pretended Reformed that they believe not the Body in which GOD has plac'd according to St. Paul some Apostles some Teachers some Pastors and the rest to be the Church of JESVS CHRIST How glad am I to be reprehended provided we advance It is then manifest that the Body of JESVS CHRIST which is his Church shall always be compos'd of Pastors of Teachers of Preachers and also of People it is then consequently always very visible and the Succession of the Pastors as well as that of the People ought to be manifest in it Mr. Claude confirms here his Discourse by a passage of Mr. Mestresat who determins that we must not seek the Church of GOD out of the Ministery and the Word So much the better and I am glad that Mr. Claude finds in his Church many Followers of this Doctrin I was afraid Vid. Sup. p. 5. that the Ministers would not find the visible Church in this Passage of St. Paul to the Ephesians where the Church is propos'd to us without Spot and without Blemish and I had set my self to prove that this Church describ'd by St. Paul was the visible Church because it was washt by Baptism and by the Wordâ— Mr. Claude enters at first into my Sentiment He says that in this passage we must understand indeed the Church which is already in Heaven but also the visible Church whichis on the earth as making together but one and the same Body and he cites here also Mr. Mestresat I receive this Doctrin and if any of our Reformed be it Mr. Claude himself ever objects to me that I must not so much rely on the Churches Visibility since there is at least a Part of this Church which is invisible that is to say that which is in Heaven I will answer that this ought not to trouble us since that in fine by this Doctrin of Mr. Mestresat and Mr. Claude being in communion with the visible Part of the Church I am sure to be so also with the invisible Part which is already in Heaven with JESVS CHRIST so that 't is very certain that all is reduc'd in fine to the Visibility Mr. Claude passes thence to the Objections that may be made and he decides at first that the Visibility of the Church is a Visibility of Ministery He must then at last as he acknowledges in the Church a perpetual Visibility come to shew us a Succession in the Ministery and in one word a Train of lawful Pastors He objects to himself that the Ministery is common to the Good and the Bad whence it seems one might conclude against his Doctrin that Good and Bad compose the Church And he Answers that if the use the Ministery is common to Good and Bad this is only by accident and thrô the Fraud of the Enemy that of right it belongs only to the true Believers and that the supernatural Destination is only for them All this is clear except this Expression the Ministery of right belongs only to the true Believers For as one might understand by this that none but true Believers are lawfull Pastors one might fall into the Inconvenience of being to examin every one in particular whether the Pastors are indeed true Believers
tell thee According to this Rule whoever can shew a whole Church a whole Society of Pastors the Beginning of its Being and a Time whensoever during which it was not has convinc'd it of not being a Church truly Christian This is our Pretention and we pretend not that this Question is about a simple Formality We averr that it concerns a fundamental Article contain'd in these words of the Creed I believe the holy Catholick Church an Article besides of such importance that it carries with it the Decision of all the rest But as this Point is decisive so it is no less clear and it cannot be long spoken of but one side or other will shew their weakness Let us say better when a Catholick never so little instructed undertakes a Protestant upon this Point this Protestant how able and subtil soever will find himself reduc'd not always indeed to hold his Peace but what is no less strong than Silence to say nothing when he shall attempt to speak but visible Absurdities This is what here befell Mr. Claude thrô the sole Defect of his Cause for 't will appear that he defended it with all possible Skill and so subtilly that I fear'd for those who heard him for I know what St. Paul writes of such Discourses But in fine we must boldly say The Truth gain'd a manifest Victory What Mr. Claude avows ruins his Cause The Places where he stood without an Answer are indeed such as suffer none And to the end it may not be said I assert what I please or that I now desire what I ere while disclaim'd to be believ'd on my own word two things will shew whatever Opinion may be had of me that in this Point I must necessarily he believ'd The first is that relying on the force of Truth and his Promise who said Luk. xxi v. 15. that he will give us a Mouth and Wisdom which our Adversaries shall not be able to resist where-ever Mr. Claude shall say that he has not acknowledg'd what I make him acknowledge in the Recital of the Conference I engage my self in a second Conference to draw again from him the same Acknowledgment and where-ever he shall say that he was not without an Answer I will force him without any other Argument but those he has already heard to Answers so visibly absurd that any men of good Sense shall acknowledge he had far better have been silent than have made use of them And for fear it should be said for in an Affair that concerns the Conversion of Souls we must as much as may be prevent all Objection for fear then once again it should be said that Mr. Claude engag'd himself in these Inconveniences by ill management I on the contrary affirm that this Advantage is so inherent to our Cause that there is no Minister no Doctor no man living but must in the same manner sink under the like Arguments Those who will make trial of it shall see that this is no vain Promise If any one says I presume too much on my strength now that I examin my self in the presence of GOD if such a Presumption had made me speak I should disown all I had said Instead of promising my self any Advantage I should esteem my self already vanquisht by trusting only to my own Arm and my own Weapons and so far should I be from defying the strong as David that I should rank my self among those Ps 63. of whom the same David sings that the Arrows of Children have pierc'd them and their own Tongue too weak to defend them is in fine turn'd against themselves The Instruction I offer in general to the Pretended Reformed I particularly offer those of the Diocess of Meaux whom I am above all the rest oblig'd to bear in my Bowels Those that shall refuse this Christian Instruction no less peaceable fraternal and paternal than concluding and decisive I shall say to them in the words of St. Paul with sorrow and groaning there being no comfort in the loss of ones Children and Brethren Acts. xx v. 26. I am pure from the Blood of them all This is the first thing which will shew that I impute nothing to Mr. Claude which might give me any Advantage The second is that Mr. Claude himself in the midst of what he opposes against me and amongst all the Turns he gives our Dispute still acknowledges at last what was in contest between us or else shifts it off in such a manner as plainly shews he cannot entirely disown it But this will be better understood by those who after the Instructions and the Conference shall read the Reflexions I make on Mr. Claudes writing Some Attention is requisite to comprehend the whole sequel of these Instructions for whatever Easiness it has pleas'd GOD to let us find in a matter in which he shews the most ignorant as well as the most learned the plain way of Salvation yet would be not discharge any one of the Attention he is capable of and since the following Discourses had their Rise from the XIX and XX Articles of my Exposition the reading of these two Articles which will take up but half a quarter of an hour will facilitate the Vnderstanding of all this Work thô I moreover hope that it is of it self sufficiently intelligible Besides the Reading of them will not be unuseful to Catholicks who ordinarily too much neglect Books of Controversy Grounded on the Faith of the Church they are too careless in perusing such Works by which their Faith might be confirm'd and in which they might find means to reduce the Erring This was not the Vse in the first Ages of the Church the Treatises of Controversy written by the Fathers were sought after by all the Faithful Conversation being one of the Means propos'd to us by the Holy Ghost for the gaining of Vnbelievers every one endeavour'd to render his profitable and edifying by such Reading The Truth insinuated it self by so sweet a Means and Conversation won those whom a premeditated Dispute would perhaps but have made more averse But to the end the Works we make of Controversy may be read as those of the Fathers were let us endeavour as the Fathers did to fill them not only with exact and found Doctrine but also with Piety and Charity and let us as much as we can correct the Dryness not to say the Sourness which is too often found in such Books A TABLE OF THE ARTICLES CONFERENCE I. THE Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction p. 1 II. The Conference p. 20 III. The Sequel of the Conference p. 49 REFLEXIONS THE first Reflexion on Mr. Claude's Answer to the Acts extracted from the Discipline of the Pretended Reformed p. 58 Second Reflexion on one of the Propositions acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference and on the Examen he prescribes after the Churches Judgment p. 64 Third Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the
carefully discern which is the true Church and that it is the Company of the Faithful which agree to follow GODs Word and the pure Religion that depends on it Whence they conclude Article XXVIII That where GODs Word is not received nor any Profession made of subjecting themselves to it and where there is no use of the Sacraments one cannot to speak properly judge that there is a Church 'T is evident by all these Passages and by the common Practice of the Pretended Reformed that the proper natural and generally us'd Signification of the Word Church is to take it for the exterior Society of GODs People amongst whom thô there be found some Hypocrites and Reprobates their Malice say they cannot efface the Title of the Church Article XXVII That is The Hypocrites mix'd in the Exterior Society of GODs People cannot take from it the Title of the true Church provided it be always vested with these exterior Marks the making Profession of GODs Word and the Use of the Sacraments as is said in Article XXVIII This is the Acceptation of the Word Church when we speak simply naturally and properly without Contention or Dispute and if this be the ordinary manner of taking this Word we have reason to say that 't was in this Sense the Apostles made use of it in their Creed where they were to speak in the most ordinary and simple manner as being to inclose in few Words the Confession of the Fundamentals of the Faith In effect this Word Church has in the common Discourse of all Christians been taken to signify this exterior Society of GODs People When by this Word Church is intended the Society of the Predestinate 't is so express'd and they say the Church of the Predestinate When by this Word is meant the Assembly and Church of the First-born Heb. xii v. 23. which are written in Heaven 't is expresly nam'd as we see in St. Paul He takes here the Word Church in a less used Signification for the City of the Living GOD the Heavenly Jerusalem where is an innumerable company of Angels and Spirits of just Men made perfect that is for Heaven where the holy Souls are gathered together Wherefore he adds a word to mark out this Church that is the Church of the First-born who have preceded their Brethren in Glory But when we use the word Church simply without adding any thing the common Practice of all Christians not excepting the pretended Reformed themselves takes it for to signify the Assembly the Society the Communion of those that confess the true Doctrin of JESUS CHRIST And whence proceeds this Custom of all Christians but from the Holy Scripture where we see in effect the word Church commonly taken in this Sense so that this cannot be deny'd to be the ordinary and natural Signification of this Word The word Ecclesia which we render Church originally signifies an Assembly and was principally attributed to the Assemblies heretofore held by the People for the discussing of publick Affairs And this word is us'd in this Sense in the nineteenth Chapter of the Acts when the People of Ephesus were assembled in Fury against St. Paul Act. XIX v. 32. v. 39. v. 40. the Assembly Ecclesia was confus'd And again If ye enquire any thing concerning other Matters it shall be determin'd in a lawful Assembly Ecclesia And in fine When he had thus spoken he dismiss'd the Assembly Ecclesiam This was the use of the word Ecclesia Church amongst the Greeks and in Gentilism The Jews and Christians afterwards made use of it to signify the Assembly the Society the Community of GODs People which makes Profession to serve him There is none but knows that famous Version of the Seventy who translated the old Testament into Greek some Ages before the coming of JESUS CHRIST Of above fifty Passages where this Word is found to be made use of in their Translation there is not any one in which it is not taken for some visible Assembly and very few in which it is not taken for the exterior Society of GODs People In this sense also St. Stephen makes use of it when he says that Moses was in the Church in the Wilderness Acts VII v. 38. with the Angel which spake to him calling by this name Church according to the Usage receiv'd amongst the Jews the visible Society of GODs People The Christians took this word from the Jews and kept it in the same Sense using it to signify the Assembly of those that confess'd JESUS CHRIST and made Profession of his Doctrine This is what is simply call'd the Church or the Church of GOD and JESUS CHRIST And of above an hundred Passages where this word is made use of in the New Testament there are scarce two or three where this Signification is contested by the Ministers and even in the Places where they contest it 't is manifest they do it without reason For Example they will not have this place of St. Paul where he says Eph. V. v. 27. that JESVS CHRIST presented to himself a glorious Church not having Spot or Wrinkle or any such thing but that it is holy and without Blemish This Place I say they will not have it possible to be understood of the visible Church nor yet of the Church on Earth because the Church so consider'd is so far from being without Blemish that it stands in daily need of this Prayer Forgive us our Sins And I say on the contrary that to affirm this glorious and unspotted Church is not the visible Church is manifestly to contradict the Apostle For see v. 25 26. of what Church St. Paul speaks 'T is of that which JESVS CHRIST loved and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word This Church washt in Water and purify'd by Baptism this Church sanctify'd by the word of Life whether by that of Preaching or by that which is made use of in the Sacraments this Church is without doubt the visible Church The holy Society of the Predestinate is not excluded from it GOD forbid They are the most noble part of it but they are compris'd in this whole They are there instructed by the Word they are there purify'd by Baptism and often also some of the Reprobate are employ'd in these Ministeries They must then be consider'd in this Passage not as making a Body apart but as making the fairest and most noble part of this exterior Society 'T is this Society which the Apostle calls the Church JESUS CHRIST without doubt loves it for he has given it Baptism he has shed his Blood to assemble it there is not any one either call'd justify'd or baptiz'd in this Church who is not called justify'd and baptiz'd in the Name and by the Merits of JESUS CHRIST This Church is glorious because she glorifies GOD because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of JESUS CHRISTs Gospel
that one might dispute but I own what you say And well then answer'd I if it be so they are by the Grace of the Holy Ghost and Faith infus'd in condition to make an Act of Faith when the Faith shall be preacht to them and I ask when the Scripture acknowledg'd by the whole Church for a Word inspir'd by GOD is shewn them Whether they are not in condition to make with the whole Church this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Mr. Claude would never acknowledge this but always answer'd That they had yet only an human Perswasion about the Scripture and that Divine Faith came not to them till they had read it If they have said I but an human Perswasion they have but a doubtful Perswasion and consequently doubt of that which is according to you the whole Foundation of the Faith In one word they are Infidels No said he they are barely ignorant and you must also say as much of the Faith one has in the Church For 't is not a matter of small difficulty to discern which is the true Church and before one is in a condition to know it of ones self one is ignorant of it or one has at most but a bare human Perswasion on the Faith of ones Parents Thus once again what you shall say upon the Church I will say to you upon the Scripture Let us see Sir answer'd I whether you will say it or whether you will have reason to say it You acknowledge then That a baptiz'd Christian who has neither read the holy Scripture nor heard it read is not in condition to make this Act of Faith I believe that this Scripture is GODs Word as I believe that GOD is Behold a terrible Inconvenience that a Believer cannot make so essential an Act of Faith 'T is not so amongst us For the Believer who receives the Holy Scripture from the Hands of the Church makes with the whole Church this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that this Scripture is the Word of him in whom I believe And I say that he cannot make this Act of Faith but by the Faith he has already in the Authority of the Church which presents him the Scripture I must here proceeded I throughly explicate but simply nevertheless in what Order Christians are instructed concerning the Truth of the Scripture I speak not of Infidels I speak of baptiz'd Christians and I desire you to observe well this Distinction There are two things here to be consider'd The one is who it is that inspires us with the Act of Faith by which we believe the Holy Scripture as GODs Word and we say that 't is the Holy Ghost On this we are agreed The other thing to be consider'd is what exterior Means the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture and I say That 't is the Church That it is so we need only see the Apostles Creed that is the first Instruction which a Believer receives He has not read the Holy Scripture and already he believes in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost and the Universal Church There is no mention made to him of the Scripture but the believing the Universal Church is propos'd to him as soon as the believing in the Holy Ghost These two Articles enter together into his Heart the Holy Ghost and the Church because he who believes in the Holy Ghost necessarily also believes the Universal Church which the Holy Ghost directs I say then that the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of Baptiz'd Christians is to believe with the Father Son and Holy Ghost the Universal Church and that this is the exterior Means by which the Holy Ghost insinuates into Hearts the Belief of the Holy Scripture If this Means is not certain the Faith in the Scripture will consequently be doubtful But as the Catholic has always found this Means certain there is not any Moment in which he cannot say As I believe that GOD is I believe that GOD has spoken to men and that this Scripture is his Word And the Reason for which he can at first make this Act of Faith is because he never doubted of the Churches Authority and because this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost put in his Heart with the Faith in GOD and in JESUS CHRIST As to what you ask me how he believes the Church that is not precisely our Question 'T is sufficient that we see he always believes it since 't is the first thing the Holy Ghost puts in his Heart and the exterior Means by which he makes him believe the Holy Scripture The Scripture of which he never offers to doubt since he never doubted of the Church which presents it to him This Sir is our Doctrin and because 't is not yours you necessarily fall into the Inconvenience I have noted Because you believe not the Churches Authority as a thing which cannot fail we shew you a Point of time in which you cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and consequently in which you cease to be a Believer Mr. Claude told me here That the Child who recited the Creed spake like a Parrot without Understanding what he said and so we ought not to insist much upon that And besides that I affirm'd gratis That to believe the Universal Church was the first Act of Faith which the Holy Ghost put into the Heart of the Baptiz'd Christian to insinuate to him by that means Faith in the Holy Scripture In fine That I answer'd not what he askt me concerning the Church nor how we began to believe her for said he The Holy Ghost is the Principle and not the Motive of Believing That 't was requisite therefore I should explicate how we believ'd the Church and by what Motive and that from my manner of speaking it seem'd as if we believ'd her by Enthusiasm and without any Motive inducing us so to do To this I answered I pretended not That the Church was believ'd by Enthusiasm That for the acknowledging her there were divers Motives of Credibility which the Holy Ghost suggested to his Faithful as he pleas'd That he was not ignorant of them but they were not now in Question Our Business now is said I to know whether the exterior Means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us believe the Holy Scripture is not the Churches Authority I speak not gratis when I say That this is the first thing which the Holy Ghost puts in the Hearts of baptiz'd Christians for in the Creed there is mention'd to them the Universal Church and she is propos'd to their Belief without speaking to them of the Scripture 'T is to no purpose to say That Children repeat at first like Parrots both the Creed and the Name of the Universal Church Let us leave said I the Parrot that speaks only by
however it is and without disputing any farther since this is no place for it we have shewn that 't is a Doctrin acknowledg'd in the new Reformation That every particular Person ought to examin after the Church and consequently ought to believe That he may happen to understand the Scripture better than she and all her Assemblies Those that abhor this Presumption or that upon Examination find not in themselves this false Capacity have no more to do but to seek their Salvation in another Church than that in which so prodigious a Doctrin is profess'd The Third REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference An Explication of the manner of Instructing Christians and That the Churches infallible â—â—thority is necessary for the knowing and understanding of Scripture THE second Absurdity I promis'd to make Mr. Claude and every good Protestant avow is That unless there be acknowledg'd in the Church an Authority after which there must be no more examining nor doubting there is a Necessity of setting a Point of time in which the Believer at the Age of Reason cannot make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture and in which consequently he must doubt whether it be true or false I assign'd for this Point of Doubt all the time in which a Christian for what cause soever has not read the Holy Scripture Mr. Claude here cries out against so detestable a Proposition and I persist to say That he not only own'd it in the Conference but also that in what manner soever he here endeavours to turn things he has not been able to do it so well but that he still confesses it in the Relation In truth this is one of the Places in which I least remember our exact Words But there is still enough to convince him since if this Relation becomes publick every one will see he here acknowledges in formal Terms That he who has not yet read the Holy Scripture believes it to be GODs Word with human Faith because his Father told him so which is the State of a Catechumen and when he has himself read this Book and felt the Efficacy of it he believes it to be GODs Word no longer with an human Faith because his Father told him so but with a divine Faith because he has himself immediatly felt its Divinity and this is the State of a Believer 'T is then true that he has acknowledg'd the Time I undertook to shew when a Baptiz'd Christian is not in a Condition to make an Act of Supernatural and Divine Faith upon the Holy Scripture since he believes it to be GODs Word only by an human Faith and divine Faith cannot come till after the reading of it In what manner soever he turns this human Faith 't is an horrible thing that a Baptiz'd Christian at the Age of Reason cannot make upon the Scripture an Act of that Faith by which we are Christians For thence it follows That a Christian at his first going to read the holy Scripture ought neither to be inclin'd of himself or induc'd by any other to say at opening it I believe as I believe that GOD is that the Scripture I am going to read is his Word On the contrary they must make him say I am going to examin whether henceforth during the rest of my life I ought to read this Scripture with such a Faith 'T is to overthrow the whole Order of Instruction 't is to lose the Fruit of Baptism 't is to reduce Baptiz'd Christians to instruct their Children as if they were not so and that they were yet to deliberate of what Religion they should be And what Mr. Claude says concerning the Scripture the same he must say on the Faith of the Trinity on that of the Incarnation on that of JESVS CHRISTs Mission and the Redemption of Mankind For that which forces Mr. Claude and every Protestant to say That the Believer who has not read the holy Scripture can believe it only with an human Faith to be inspir'd by GOD is That otherwise they must acknowledg an Act of Divine Faith on the Churches sole Authority Which would be to own this Authority as infallible and ruin the very Foundations of all the new Reformation But the same Argument returns upon all the Articles of our Faith and if the Faithful can believe with a divine Faith both the Trinity and the Incarnation and Mission of JESVS CHRIST on the sole Authority of the Church and before he has read the holy Scripture I shall always conclude with equal Certainty That the Churches Authority will be infallible By the Consequence then of Mr. Claude's and all the Protestants Principle we must in reducing the Christians who go to read the holy Scripture to a bare human Faith concerning this Scripture reduce them at the same time to the like on the most Essential Articles of our belief This was not the Method of our Forefathers they did not thus teach Christians to instruct their Children When they baptiz'd them in their Infancy they said in that young Age Credo I believe No matter thô our Reformers have chang'd this Form 't was us'd in the very first Ages and will be always holy and venerable maugre all they can do But this Form us'd towards Children shews us that when they shall have the use of Reason they must be immediatly taught to make an Act of Faith and time must not be lost in exciting them to it They will then be capable of it they may say the same Creed they should have said if they had been baptiz'd at the Age of Understanding and to reduce them to a Faith barely human is to take from them the Grace of their Baptism and justify the Practice as well as the Doctrin of the Anabaptists And I conjure the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion not to believe that I alledge here the Anabaptists by way of exaggeration or to render them odious these manners are not beseeming Christians I am ready to make good that the Doctrin taught here by Mr. Claude and which all Protestants must teach with him introduces Anabaptism For if the Acts of divine Faith must be held in suspense till such time as one has read the holy Scripture and be instructed by himself if all the Acts that precede this Instruction are not Acts of Christians since they have for their foundation only an human Faith for the same reason Bapâ—â—â— must be deferr'd till that time and we must not make Christians that at the Age of Reason are uncapable to produce Acts of their Religion The Fourth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture 'T IS in vain for Mr. Claude to answer us That he will make us the same Argument for the Church as we make him for the Scripture for to do this as we shew him a point of time which even at the use of Reason necessarily precedes
not this Difficulty TO shew Vid. Sup. p. 2 3. seq that the Word Church signifies in the Creed a visible Church I laid for a Foundation that in a Confession of Faith such as this Creed was Words were us'd in their most natural and most simple Signification and I added that the word Church signify'd so naturally the visible Church that the Pretended Reformed Authors of the Chimera of an invisible Church in all their Confession of Faith never us'd the Word Church in this Sense but only to express the visible Church cloath'd with the Sacraments with the word and with all the publick Ministery See the Passages of the Confession of Faith I have related with the Consequences I have drawn from them I was not the first who made this Remark 't was a National Synod of the Pretended Reformed These Gentlemen who had so much preacht the invisible Church and who being press'd upon the Succession grounded on this foundation the invisible Succession of which they made use wondred they had not spoken one single word of it in their Confession of Faith where on the contrary the word Church is always taken for the Visible Church Surpriz'd with this Language so natural to Christians but so little conformable to the Principles of their Reformation they made this Decree in the Year 1603. Syn. de Gap sur la Conf. de Foy art 3. in the Synod of Gap in the Chapter which has for its Title On the Confession of Faith 'T is by this all the Synods begin and the first thing that is done in them is to review this Confession of Faith which gave occasion to the Printers to re-imprint it with this Title Syn. de Privas 1612. forbidden in the Synods The Confession of Faith of the Reformed Churches review'd and corrected in the National Synod But let us come to the Decree of Gap of which these are the words The Provinces shall be exhorted to consider in the Provincial Synods in what Terms the XXV Article of the Confession of Faith ought to be coucht forasmuch as being to express what we believe touching the Catholick Church of which mention is made in the Creed there is nothing in the said Confession that can be taken but for the militant and visible Church as also in the XXIX Article they shall see whether it be fit to adde the Word Pure to the Word the Church which is in the said Article and in general all shall come prepar'd on the matters of the Church We have related the Substance of this XXV Article You may in the same place see the XXVI Vid. Sup. p. 3. XXVII and XXVIII Articles And for the XXIX Article it says that the true Church ought to be govern'd according to the Policy which our Lord JESUS CHRIST has establisht that is that there be Pastors Overseers and Deacons to the end the pure Doctrin may have its Course and the Assemblies be kept in the Name of GOD. The Addition of the word pure Church which they deliberated to add to that of true is founded on a Doctrin of the Pretended Reformed which says that a true Church may not be pure because with the essential Truths it may have Errors mixt I say even gross and considerable Errors against the Faith And this is one of the Mysteries of the new Reformation which Mr. Claude will explain to us by and by but 't is not here in question What there is important is that these People who say they are sent of GOD to raise again the pure Doctrin of the Gospel being to explicate as themselves declare in their Confession of Faith the Church of which mention is made in the Creed spake nevertheless only of the militant and visible Church I could easily tell you the Reason 't is that this Church of which mention is made in the Creed is indeed the visible Church 't is that the word Church naturally imports this Visibility and the word Catholick is so far from derogating from it that it supposes it 't is that in a Confession of Faith one often happens to speak rather according to the natural Ideas the words bear with them than according to the Refinements and Interpretations one has invented to free himself out of some Difficulty Thus the invisible Church presented not it self at all to our Reformed when they fram'd their Confession of Faith the sense of the visible Church appear'd only in it there was nothing seen in this but natural till the Year 1603. In 1603 they awoke they began to find it strange that a Church which founded her Succession in the Idea of an invisible Church and of a Church of the Predestinate should not have said one word of it in her Confession of Faith but have left it for evident that the Natural Signification of the word Church always imported a visible Society so that to speak truly the Succession of the Church would no longer be shewn without shewing the Succession of her Visibility a thing utterly impossible for the new Reformation 'T was this inclin'd the whole Synod to desire the going again over this Article and to exhort the Provinces to come ready prepar'd upon the matters of the Church which had never been well understood amongst the new Reformed which are not yet understood and which will make all those Catholicks that can throughly understand them But the going over this Article again was a very nice Affair 'T was to awaken all understandings 't was too visibly to mark the Defect and give the Printers more occasion than ever to entitle it The Confession review'd and corrected Thus in the Synod of Rochel held in 1607 't was resolved not to add or diminish any thing in the XXV and XXIX Articles nor to meddle afresh with the matter of the Church By the decision of this Synod the visible Church alone appears in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith the invisible Church has no part in it and one draws from it Consequences as one can That Vid. Sup. p. 4. which I draw pinches them for if the Church appears only as visible in the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith and if besides they assert this Confession of Faith as conformable in all points to the Scripture they must tell us that this manner of explicating the Church comes from the Scripture and that from the Scripture it has pass'd naturally into the ordinary Language of Christians into the Confessions of Faith and consequently into the Creed which is not only the best authoriz'd of all Confessions of Faith but also the most simple Mr. Claude answers us Man Anf. q. 1. that the Custom changes and that by Process of time Words often depart from their first and natural Signification and that besides thô it should be true as I have said that the word Church taken simply should signify the visible Church the word Vniversal would change this Signification But he shall not escape us by this
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd
Conference an Explication of the manner of instructing Christians and that the Churches infallible Authority is necessary for the knowing and understanding the Scripture p. 73 Fourth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's objecting the same Difficulty to us about the Church as we do to him about the Scripture p. 76 Fifth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's alledging here the Practice of the Greek Church and the like which is only to embroil the matter and not to resolve the Difficulty p. 78 Sixth Reflexion on Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children p. 82 Seventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute p. 86 Eighth Reflexion on another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches have been establisht p. 88 Ninth Reflexion on the Churches Visibility that Mr. Claude opposes not the Doctrin I have explain'd till he has first fram'd himself a false Idea of it p. 91 Tenth Reflexion on the Pretended Reformeds Confession of Faith that it acknowledges no Church but what is visible and that Mr. Claude satisfies not this Difficulty p. 95 Eleventh Reflexion on Mr. Claude's own acknowledgment of the Churches perpetual Visibility the surprizing Doctrin of this Minister p. 99. Twelfth Reflexion Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his Doctrin p. 104 Thirteenth and last Reflexion Mr. Claude's Doctrin shews the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion that there is no Salvation for them but in the Roman Church p. 107 A CONFERENCE WITH M r. CLAU DE Minister of CHARENTON Concerning the AUTHORITY of the CHURCH MADEMOISELLE de DURAS I. The Preparation to the Conference and particular Instruction being in some Doubt about her Religion caus'd me to be ask'd by several Persons of Quality Whether I were willing to Confer with Mr. Claude in her Presence I answer'd I should very readily do it if I saw that such a Conference were necessary for her Salvation She afterwards by the Duke of Richelieu invited me to be at Paris on Tuesday the last of February 1678. and to enter into Conference the next day with this Minister on the Subject she would speak to me about This was to intimate to me that she was willing to see me before the Conference Being with her on the Day appointed she acquainted me That the Point she desir'd to have clear'd with her Minister was that of the Churches Authority which seem'd to her to include the whole Controversy She appear'd to me not likely to come to a Resolution without this Conference so that I judg'd it absolutely necessary I told her she had indeed great Reason to lay her principal and whole Stress on this Article which in effect compreheâ—â—ded the Decision of all the rest as she herself had well observ'd and endeavour'd to make her yet fuller understand the Importance of this Article 'T is a thing said I to her ordinary enough with your Ministers to brag That they cannot be deny'd to believe the Fundamentals of the Faith They say that we believe all they believe but that they believe not all we believe Their Meaning by this is That they have kept all the Fundamentals of the Faith and rejected only what we have added to them They draw thence a great Advantage and pretend that their Doctrine is secure and indisputable Mademoiselle de Duras remembred very well she had often heard them use such Discourses I will make proceeded I but one Remark upon this which is that instead of granting them to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the Mouth I believe the Catholic or Universal Church as the Arians Macedonians and Socinians say with the Mouth I believe in JESVS CHRIST and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true Sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholic Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important â—an Article of the Creed Mademoiselle de Duras had read my Treatise of the Exposition and told me she remembred that she had seen something in it like to what I now said but I answer'd my Intention in that Treatise was to mention things very briefly and that 't was fit she should now see them a little more at large You must know then said I to her what is meant by this Expression The Catholic or Universal Church and upon this I began to lay for my Ground that in the Creed which was only a bare Declaration of the Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural Signification and such as is most used amongst Christians Now all Christians by the Name of the Church understand a Society making Profession to believe the Doctrine of JESVS CHRIST and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this was the proper and genuine Signification of the Word Church such as was known by every one and us'd in common Discourse I desired no other Witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves When they speak of their Ecclesiastical Prayers of the Churches Discipline of the Churches Faith of the Pastors and Doctors of the Church they mean not the Prayers of the Predestinate nor their Discipline nor their Faith but the Prayers Faith and Discipline of all the Faithful assembled in the exterior Society of GODs People When they say That a Man edifies the Church or that he scandalizes the Church that they receive one into the Church or exclude one out of the Church all this is undoubtedly understood of the exterior Society of GODs People Thus they explain it in the form of Baptism when they say that they are going to receive the Child into the Fellowship of the Christian Church and when for this cause they oblige the Godfathers and Godmothers to instruct the little one in the Doctrin received by GOD's People as it is say they summarily compris'd in the Confession of Faith which we all have And again when they ask of GOD in their Ecclesiastical Prayers to deliver all his Churches from the Throat of the ravening Wolves And yet more expresly in the Confession of Faith Article XXV when they say That the Order of the Church which was established by JESVS CHRIST must be sacred and therefore that the Church cannot subsist if there be not in it Pastors who may have the charge to Teach And in Article XXVI That none ought to drâ—â— aside but that all together ought to keep and maintain the Vnity of the Church submitting to the common Instruction And in fine in Article XXVII That we must
some Truth She must keep and teach all Truth else she is not the Church Nor is it to any purpose to distinguish the fundamental Articles from the others For all that GOD has reveal'd must be retain'd He has reveal'd nothing to us that is not very important for our Salvation Isai xlviii v. 17. I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things In the Faith then which the Church teaches must be found the fulness of the Truths reveal'd by GOD Otherwise she is no longer the Church that JESUS CHRIST founded That particular Persons may be ignorant of some Articles I easily confess but the Church conceals nothing of what JESUS CHRIST has reveal'd And therefore the Faithful who are ignorant of certain Articles in particular confess them nevertheless all in general when they say I believe the Vniversal Church This said I is the Church which your Ministers know not They teach you that this visible and exterior Church may cease to be upon the Earth they teach you that she may err in her Decisions they teach you that to believe this Church is to believe Men But 't is not in this manner that the Church is propos'd to us in the Creed 'T is there propos'd to us to believe her as we believe in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Ghost and therefore the Faith of the Church is joyn'd with the Faith of the three Divine Persons These things having been said at several times but almost in this Order I added that our Doctrin on this Point was so true that the Pretended Reformed who deny'd it could not wholly reject it That is their Synods acted in such a manner as shew'd that they requir'd as well as we an absolute Submission to the Authority and Decrees of the Church Here I let Mademoiselle de Duras see the four Acts of the Gentlemen of the Pretended Reformed Religion which I have taken notice of in the Exposition Article XX. She had read them there but I caused her to read them in the very Book of the Discipline The first is taken out of the Vth. Chapter Title of Consistories Article XXXI Where 't is said That Disputes about Doctrine should be determin'd by GODs Word if it might be in the Consistory if not the matter should be brought before the Colloquy thence to the Provincial Synod and in fine to the National where the full and final Resolution should be made by GODs Word to which if any one refus'd to submit with an express disclaiming of his Errors he should be cut off from the Church 'T is not then said I to GODs Word alone precisely as such that the full and final Resolution belongs since after it is propos'd an Appeal is permitted but to GODs Word in as much as explicated and interpreted by the Churches last Judgment The second Act is taken out of the Synod of Vitré related in the Book of the Discipline It contains the Letter of Mission which all the Churches make when they send Deputies to the National Synod See the Terms of it We promise before GOD to submit our selves to whatsoever shall be resolv'd in your Holy Assembly being perswaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word This Perswasion said I if it be grounded only on an human Presumption cannot be the matter of so solemn an Oath by which they swear to submit to a Resolution they do not yet know It cannot then be founded but upon an express Promise That the Holy Ghost will preside in the last Judgment of the Church and Catholics say no more The third Act which is found also in the same Book of the Discipline is the Condemnation of the Independents on their saying That every Church ought to govern it self without dependance on any one in Ecclesiastical Matters This Proposition was in the Synod of Charenton declar'd as prejudicial to the State as to the Church 'T was there judg'd That it open'd the Door to all sorts of Irregularities and Extravagances took away all Remedies and made way for the forming as many Religions as Parishes But said I whatever Synods are held if we do not believe our selves oblig'd to submit our Judgments to them we cannot avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and the leaving a Door open for the setting up as many Religions I do not say as there are Parishes but as there are Heads We must then come to this Obligation of submitting our Judgment to what the Catholic Church teaches These three Acts are taken out of the Book of the Discipline printed at Charenton in the year 1667. The fourth is found in a Book of Mr. Blondes's Intitled Actes Autentiques printed at Amsterdam by Blaeu in the year 1655. 'T is a Resolution of the National Synod of Sainte Foy 1578. which names four Ministers to meet at an Assembly where was to be treated a Re-union with the Lutherans by framing a Formulary of Profession of the common Faith Power was given to these Ministers to decide all Points of Doctrin and others that should be brought into Deliberation and to consent to this Confession of Faith even without communicating any farther about it with the Churches if the Time permitted not to do it From this Act I concluded two things One That the whole Synod trusted their Faith in the Hands of four private Persons a thing far more extraordinary than to see particulars submit to the whole Church The other That the Pretended Reformed Church is yet but little assur'd of her Confession of Faith since she consents to the changing it and that in Points so important as are those that make the Dispute with the Lutherans one of which is the Reality If the Pretended Reformed hop'd that the Lutherans would return to them there was no need of a new Confession of Faith What was then intended was That both the one and the other continuing in their Sentiments there should be fram'd a Confession of Faith in which both Parties might agree which could not be done without adding or suppressing something essential in a Confession of Faith which they give us as teaching only the pure Word of GOD. Mademoiselle de Duras acknowledged to me that having seen in my Treatise these Acts and my Reflections which are the same with these I now made she knew not what to answer to 'em and that therefore she desir'd to hear what Answer Mr. Claude would make as well upon these Acts as upon the other Difficulties that regarded the Authority of the Church I told her That thô those of her Religion acted as holding the Churches Authority infallible and indisputable yet 't was true That they deny'd this Infallibility and I added That 't was a constant Maxim in her Religion That every private Person how ignorant soever was oblig'd to believe That he could understand the Holy Scripture better than all the Councils and all the rest
common Faith but only of Establishing this Toleration by a Synodal Decree as had been done at Charenton Mr. Claude answer'd that the Point of Doctrin to be decided was Whether a mutual Toleration might be establisht and that the Confession of common Faith would have done nothing else but declar'd this Toleration Which he deny'd not but it might be done in a Synod as I must grant that it might also be done in a Confession of Faith where there should have been an express Article to that purpose I answer'd him That this could never be call'd a Confession of common Faith and askt him Whether he thought the Lutherans or they should have retrench'd any thing of what the one said for the Reality and the other against it He answer'd me No. And then said I each party would have continu'd in the Terms of their own Confession of Faith having nothing common but the Article of Toleration There were said he many other Points in which we agreed 'T is granted answer'd I but 't was not about these Points the Accord was to be made the Question was about the Reality and some others on which there could not be made a Confession of common Faith except one of the Parties chang'd or both agreed upon ambiguous Expressions which each might draw to their own Opinions a thing that had been oft attempted as Mr. Claude himself could not but owne He granted it and related also the Assembly of Marbourg and some others held for that purpose I concluded then That I had reason to believe the Synod of Sainte Foy had a like Design and that 't would have been to mock the World to call that a Confession of common Faith which should have made appear such manifest oppositions on so important Points of the Christian Doctrin To which I farther added 't was so much the more certain That a Confession of Faith was as I said really in agitation in that the Lutherans having already several times declar'd against a Toleration there was nothing to be expected from them but by the Means of which I spake The Matter rested there and I only said That every one need but consider what he ought to think in his Conscience of a Confession of Faith which a whole National Synod had consented to change When Mr. Claude was saying That the Oath of submitting to the National Synod included a Condition I had interrupted him by putting in a word Yes said I they hop'd well of the Synod yet without certainty and expecting the Event they forbare not to swear they would submit Mr. Claude telling me here That I interrupted him and praying me to let him say all I held my peace But after the Affair of Sainte Foy was discuss'd I said to him That I thought it necessary before we pass'd any farther I should tell him in a few words what I had conceiv'd of his Doctrin to the end we might not speak in the air I said then to him You say Sir That these Words Being persuaded that GOD will preside in it and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all Truth and Equity thrô the Rule of his Word are only an honest manner of proposing a Condition He agreed it Let us then said I reduce the Proposition into a conditional one and we shall see what will be the sense of it I swear to submit to all you shall decide on this Supposition or Condition That what you shall decide be agreeable to GODs Word Such an Oath is nothing else but a manifest Illusion as signifying nothing and being but what I might make to Mr. Claude or he to me But in this there would not be any thing serious and 't is to be observ'd that something more particular must be aim'd at since this Oath is only made to the Synod which gives the final determination thô in Mr. Claude's Sense there were as much Reason to make it to the Consistory to which they ought to submit as well as to the Synod supposing it has the Word of GOD for its Guide In this place I held my peace a little and seeing that there was not a word said I went on thus But in fine then Sir if I well understand your Doctrin you believe That a private person may doubt of the Churches Judgment even when she gives her final Determination No Sir answer'd Mr. Claude 't is not to be said That one may doubt there being all the Likelihood in the World that the Church will judge well He that says Likelihood Sir reply'd I immediatly says a manifest Doubt But said Mr. Claude There is more for JESUS CHRIST having promis'd that those who would seek should find since 't is to be presum'd they will seek well 't is to be also believ'd they will judge well and in this assurance there is something indubitable But when there shall be seen in Councels Cabals Factions different Interests it may with reason be doubted Whether in such an Assembly there will not be mixt something human and doubtful Pray Sir said I let us set aside what is good for nothing but to throw dust in ones Eyes All you say of Cabals Factions Interests is absolutely to no purpose and consequently serves only to perplex There is nothing said Mr. Claude more to the purpose And I affirm answer'd I That your self will grant there 's nothing less to the purpose For I ask you Sir Supposing there should appear in the Councel neither Factions nor Cabals supposing also one were assur'd that there were not any and that all pass'd in Order must one receive the Decision without examining it He was fain to answer No. Whence I immediatly concluded I had then reason to say That all you alledg'd as very considerable concerning Factions and Cabals was in the bottom only an Amusement and in fine that a private person a Woman any ignorant Fellow whatever he is may believe and ought to believe that he may happen to understand GODs Word better than a whole Councel thô assembled from the four quarters of the World and than all the rest of the Church Yes said he 't is so I repeated twice or thrice the Proposition he had granted adding still some stronger Circumstance but evidently contain'd in what was accorded What said I better than all the rest of the Church together and than all her Assemblies thô compos'd of the holiest and most illuminated persons in the Universe For all these are still but men after whom according to your Doctrin every one ought still to examin A private person shall believe that he may have more Grace more Light in fine more of the Holy Ghost than all the rest of the Church All this must pass and I might have added more than all the Fathers more than all the past Ages reckoning immediatly from the Apostles times But proceeded I if it be so how do you avoid the Inconveniences of the Independents and what Means has the Church left to hinder the
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this