this father that I named vnto you saith they wrot that which they deliuered and they wrote it by the will of God as not trusting tradition vnwritten and they wrote it to be for euer the ground of our faith noting that vnwritten tradition may not be the ground because it is vncertain and full of imperfection as I could shewe you if we were to speake of that matter Therefore seeing this which is written is certainly and assuredly that which they deliuered and we hold nothing but that which is agreeable to this which is written you see it is most plaine that we holde nothing but that which the Apostles themselues deliuered and so our faith the old faith which was from the beginning and first M. Surely if you holde nothing but that which is written it is certaine that that which was written was deliuered by the Apostles and so it followeth that you hold nothing but that which was deliuered by the Apostles and Prophets and therfore your faith olde indeede and not to be reiected And for tradition although we may be told that this and that was deliuered by the Apostles and their successours and so by them to theirs againe to this day yet I must needes confesse that is not so manifest and plaine as which is written neither doth it yeeld such contentment to my conscience But I can not tell what to say it is a sure and steadfast way to trust to that which is written rather then to that which is reported and yet I am loath â—o offend you shal giue me leaue to pause think more of it S. Yea deere Mother and with the hart of a dutifull child I say the father of our Lord Iesus Christ lighten the eyes of your vnderstanding in all things to the glory of his great name and your eternall comfort but be you assured in this that we hold nothing as needfull to our saluation but that which is written in expresse wordes or by sure and plaine collection and therefore make the consequence as the Lord shall direct you M. Howe then commeth it to passe that your religion is still called new new S. Even as I told you before it is one of Satans trickes to discredit trueth and hath in all times beene vsed of him But as then your selfe collected by that which I alleadged that it is not safe to be lead by tearmes and names without due considering howe iustly and truely they are giuen so I beseech you do here again and be not mooued with the name for questionles there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the religion of God then to accuse it of noueltie as a matter lately found out For as there can be no change in God himselfe so ought there be no change in his religion Yet still I say Satan hath taken this course euen from the beginning to call trueth newe which indeede is not onely of greatest antiquitie but also froÌ„ euerlasting That vngratious blood thirstie Haman when he sought to procure the king Assuerus his dspleasure against the Iewes vsed this slaunder against them of noveltie telling the king that he had in his domion a kinde of people that vsed certaine newe lawes of their own c. Act. 1â— WheÌ„ Paul also began first to preach and expound the Gospel at Athens he was called a tidings-bringer of new Gods that is of a newe religion for said the Athenians may we not knowe of thee what newe doctrine this is Origen again telleth vs of Celsus that when he wrot of set purpofe against Christ to the ende he might scornefully scosse at the gospell he accused it of noueltie and said Orig. conâ—a Câ—lsum vvhat hath God after so many ages now at last bethought himselfe whose vile blasphemies that auncient father in his bookes written against him answereth Eusebius also saith that the Christian religion from the beginnnig for verie spite was called new and straunge Euseb l. 1 c. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sentence was giuen of condemnation that S. Audrewe should be crucified for teaching and enterprising a newe sect and taking away the religion of their Gods Shall we then bee mooued with this tearme and carried away with this name No God forbid These examples are a faire warning for vs to take heede of that lightnesse and rashnesse Let the deuil rage against trueth with what names God shall suffer him and his members yet this shall euer stand that the doctrine of the Church is elder then any Idolatrie or superstition of the Gentiles that the doctrine of the Gospell was preached in Paradise by God himselfe saying The seede of the vvoman shall bruise the serpentâ— head That the writings of Moses are elder the any writings of the Gentiles the doctrine of the Apostles elder then Popery or any other heresie and that we at this day hold nothing as I haue often said but what appeareth out of the Apostles owne writings alowed both by vs and our aduersaries to be their vvritinges to be their ovvne doctrine deliuered to the Church to be beleeued and for men and vvomen to be saued by M. Surely I see still it is not safe to be carried away vvith names and to beleeue all to be nevve vvhich is called so or all olde vvhich is named olde for so vve may be deceiued But yet in shevve of the vvorlde ours hath had a longer continuance then yours S. I must needes here once againe remember you what I meane by your religion to wit those pointes of doctrine onely wherein you differ from vs. And then I answer first that your religion euen in shewe of the world hath not had a longer continuance then ours especially for the principall points whereon wee stand as namely 1. the articles of our Creede which is a briefe and summe of catholik faith as Athanasius plainely witnesseth Symbol Athanas Haee est fides Catholica and the Councell of Trent confesseth 1. the acknowledgment of gods diuine law and the worshipping of god according to that law 3. the doctrine of repentance froÌ„ dead workes and of faith in Iesus Christ for the remission of sinne 4 the doctrine of the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords supper which are the fundamentall points of out faith and religion and the rocke whereon we build our soules and Church and without controuersie of greater antiquity then those points of doctrine which we call popery Besides I answer although your religion in shew of the world were more ancient then ours yet that ought to be no disparagement to ours or aduaÌ„cemeÌ„t to yours for god afflicteth his church as pleaseth him maketh vs see that it is like the moone whervnto it is compared now growing now ful now waining we may not mesure truth by worldly couÌ„tenaÌ„ce but by that rule which neuer faileth the word of God and if our faith be that which there is taught warraÌ„ted the you haue heard which is the old true Catholik faith
the tares were cast into the good fielde Shall not a white head be taken so to be vnlesse the precise beginning of white haires be known A chinke in a wall is spied and mended but the beginning vsually vnknown When the Scribes and Pharises had corrupted religion what bookes doe we reade to be written against them How able were Ioseph Simeon Marie Anna c. to confute them Falshood is falshood though no man write against it And therefore let the doctrine of poperie he sifted whether it be sound or no and the beginning let goe of which yet you see what I haue said M. Sonne you haue said much and still I wish that one of vs would heare another more then we do I see I see it is profitable god hath commaunded meanes and liketh meanes S. Mother many a good man and woman that nowe liueth in ignorance woulde heare and reade but that they are so terrified in holes and corners by false charmers vnder the paine of excommunication not to doe it nor to conferre with any Yea they are often snared with an oath not to doe it and all to keepe them in darknesse because the hooded hauke is quietest and Sampson when his eies be out may be mocked and vsed at will but the Lord is able to touch his peoples hearts to thinke of their craft and cast from them such deceitfull workes which I beseech him to doe euen with speede For the impietie and boldnesse of these wicked charmers is great and worthily reprooued by S. Hierome who saith of some in his time that they did tantam sibi assumere authoritateÌ„ in Esai l. 9. c. 3. vt siue dextra docerent siue sinistra id est siue bona siue malanolint discipulos ratione discutere sed se praecessores sequi some did take such autority vpon them that whether they taught right or wrong good or badde they would not haue their auditours to examine it but to followe them M. Yea but it is a great matter sonne in our eyes that the Church of Rome hath alwaies beene a visible state maintaining that doctrine visible I say and still appearing and knowne whereas your church before Luthers time either was not at all or was hidde as some say and your doctrine not receiued by publike authoritie S. But good mother you know trueth is trueth although the whole world were set against it And therefore still I wish your eye bent not vpon the fauour of the world for that is commonly against the good and for the badde but vpon the face of almightie God his good pleasure and the rule thereof his worde And then for answere to this obiected which seemeth so strong a bulwarke in the iudgement of many Papists â—â—e â— church 〈◊〉 nor alwaies â—â—sible first I say that the true church is not alwaies visible in the worlde as they take visible that is glorious in credit and fauour supported by authority of worldly powers so that all people may know whether to resort vnto it For the Church is either Catholike 1. vniuersall or particular The Catholike or vniuersall church cannot be seene and therfore we beleeue it as an article of our faith Credo sanctam ecclesiam Catholicam Symb. Apost I beleeue that there is an holy Catholike Church not as some would haue it I giue credit to the church and beleeue what soeuer it teacheth for then it should be Credo Ecclesiae not Credo Ecclesiam Sentent l. 3. distinct 2â— There is great difference saith P. Lumbard following S. Austen betwixt Credere Deum Credere Deo and Creaere in Deum the first is to beleeue that there is a God the second to giue credance vnto God and to beleeue all that tâ—u which he speaketh the third to rely vpon god and to put our confidence in him for protection and blessing So doubtlesse may I say that there is an apparent difference betwixt Credere Ecclesiam Catholicam Credere Ecclesiae Caetholicae and Creaere in Ecclesiam Catholicam the first is to be assuredly perswaded and to beleeue that there is a Catholike Church which is the meaning of the article as the very phrase of speach sheweth and the other articles following Credo communionem Sanctorum I beleeue that there is a communion of Saints Credo remissionem peccatoruÌ„ I beleeue that there is a remission of sinnes Credo carnis resurrectionem I beleeue that there is a resurrection of the flesh c. The second Credere Ecclesiae catholicae is to giue credit vnto the Catholike Church and to embrace as trueth whatsoeuer the Church shall propound vnto vs which can not be the sense of the article except we will both confound these two phrases Credere Eccslesiam and Credere Ecclesiae so accurately distinguished by the master of the sentences and S. Augustin and make the wordes of men equall with Gods word The third Credere in Ecclesiam Catholicam is wholly to depend vpon the Catholike Church which we cannot make the sense of the article without violence to the wordes and great blasphemie to God Thus much by the way and by your gentle patience good mother of this article and the true meaning of it in generall because the mistaking thereof hath misled some into errour Now to returne seeing we beleeue the vniuersall or Catholike Church it followeth that it can not be seene â—eb 11.1 For faith as the Apostle writeth is the ground of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seene Not seene I say againe and intreat you to marke the worde And that a particular Church is not alwaies seene the storie of Elias prooueth pregnantly who could not see one and therefore was wery of his life â—ing 19.18 whereas God had kept vnto himselfe euen then when he complained and in that place where he liued yea in the middest of that people of whome he complained 7000. that had not bowed their knees vnto Ball. What may we thinke of these 7000. among the tenne trikes of Israel were they not Gods people worshipping him in spirit and in truth or is not the nuÌ„ber sufficiet to make a church Surely the number might well make seuen glorious particular Churches Rom. 1â— and the Apostle saieth of them first that God had kept them to himselfe secondly that they were his people thirdly that he knewe them before to wit in his eternall councell and almighty God himselfe to his prophet acknowledged them as his beloued and promised his protection vnto them that they should be safely kept Reasons 1. Reg. c. 19 1â—.17 18. I suppose sufficient both for number and weight to prooue that God had his church in that place and at that selfe same time when where the prophet Elias complained for want of a Church and fellowe members to worship God with him O if so many so deare vnto god at one time in one countrie worshipping the true God truly by the testimony of
newe teachers haue possest you mightily you are so carried away with them that they are able to make you beleeue any thing Why tell me the crowe is white or the snowe is blacke S. Good Mother the Lord hath mooued your heart to heare me speake who am yours and of you If I speake amisse as you thinke and so as you cannot consent vnto me with me leaue we it both to the working power of a mighty God who in further time can giue further light and vnderstanding to his children that humbly craue it and are not lifted vp with an high hand to withstand his offered grace Onely according to this motherly loue that you haue began to shew me vouchsafe to here me still vpon what groundes I haue setled my selfe and with what proofe I am mooued to thinke as I doe M. Surely sonne I coulde not abide or indure to heare any other once speake of such a straunge thing as this but say you on what you list you are my childe S. I doe verely beleeue it seemeth most straunge to you and to many moe of your side to heare that your religion is newe and ours olde Yet I doubt not but to make it evidently apparent vnto you and all whosoeuer shall without preiudice duly consider my allegations and proofe But first I must interpret my selfe in a worde or two what I meane by your faith and religion I pray you therefore when I speake of your Romish religion thinke not that I meane the whole doctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists but onely those points of doctrine wherein they differ from vs. For in generall they hold the doctrine of the lawe and tenne commandements as we doe sauing that they leaue out the second commandement which forbiddeth the worshipping of Idols and Images making two of the tenth they professe also the summe of the gospell at least in generalitie and in wordes to wit that Christ Iesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption and by the blood of his crosse and pretious death prrfect obedience hath deliuered vs from eternall death the fierch and euerlasting wrath of God the due desert of our transgressions and purchased for vs euerlasting peace and blisse they maintaine also and professe in wordes as we also doe the three creedes the Nicene the Athanasian and the Apostolike creede wherein is comprised the summe of our faith and the doctrine we professe they acknowledge that most excellent forme and paterne of prayer taught vs in the gospel by our Sauiour and vse it and many other good and godly prayers which we also vse euen all those vvelneere in our common liturgie except a very fevve for our most gratious Queene sauing that they vse theÌ„ in latin vve in english that all may vnderstand and say amen Wherefore vvhen I say that your religion is nevv meane not generally nor of the things before rehearsed but only in respect of certeÌ„ other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholikes as namely 1. that the traditioÌ„s of the church are of equall authority vviâ—h the vvorde of god to be embraced with like reuerence and deuotion 2. that the vulgar latin translation commonly called Hieromes is onely authenticall 3. that the imputation of Christs righteousnes and obedience to the faithfull is a fantasie without ground in Gods word 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist transubstantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored 5. that the faithfull are able to keepe the whole lawe of God 6. that the Pope is Christs generall vicar vpon earth hauing absolute power to ratifie or disanull all manner of decrees and ordinances and to dispense with the expresse and moral precepts of God at his pleasure 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any lawe ecclesiasticall nor interpret any scripture 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be translated into any vulgar tongue or reade of the lay people 9. that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administred onely in bread and not in wine Quia sapor possit generate suspitionem quòd esset ibi â—inum least as the Sorbonists at Paris say the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ 10. that good works are meritorious and that by them we are iustified in the sight of God 11. that the soules of the faithfull dying before perfect repentance suffer the torments of purgatory 12. that prayers are to be made in an vnknowen tongue such like of al which and the rest wherein they disagree from vs I say they are newe and yesterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scriptures and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned And therefore now to proceede to the declaration of that which I haue vndertaken touching the noueltie of your faith Thus good Mother haue our men written at this day teach that it goeth not with Religion as it doth with the statutes of the realme iudgements at common law where the later is thought to be the better but in religion the first and eldest is best Therefore they euer remember that golden saying of Tertullian that is true which was first that is first which was from the beginning and that was from the beginning which was deliuered by the Apostles but our faith is that was deliuered by the Apostles yours is not therfore ours is froÌ„ the beginning and so first yours not and therefore later Now that ours is that which was deliuered by the Apostles they prooue it thus Another ancient father saith That which the Apostles preached and deliuered to the world by preaching Irenaeus they afterward by the will of God committed to writing that for euer it might be the foundation and ground of faith Wherevpon it followeth that which the Apostles preached is the old auncient Catholike and Apostolike saith but that which they haue written is that which they preached so saith this father therfore that which is written is the true auncient Catholike and Apostolike faith that is ours For as I haue saide we hold nothing as necessarie to salvation but that which is truly taught vs out of these written scriptures Therefore our faith is that which was deliuered by the Apostles your faith is not that which is written For your men wil not be tried by the scriptures onely as knowing that many things they hold haue no warrant there but haue deuised vnwritten traditions therefore yours is not that which was deliueeed by the Apostles and not the old faith but a late newe faith devised by men M VVhy that which was deliuered by tradition Tradition was deliuered by the Apostles as wel as that which they wrot S. True Mother if it could as soundly appeare vnto vs what they deliuered as it doth by their writings what they preached But
and nowe concerning substance Wilt thou be baptized in this faith was not meant of the errour of the time but of this faith now rehearsed contained in the 12. articles which except then it was some other because it was latin and nowe is saide in English we see plainely they were then baptized in the same faith with vs and that was a right true Catholicke faith and not the Romish errours that then ruled and were receiued of the state Our godfathers also holding the same faith to wit of the tvvelue articles and vve being christened in the faith of our godfathers godmothers so long as vve hold and continue in this our creede vve continue in the same faith if our godfathers and godmothers deceiued by the time held any other points in deede and trueth not agreeing vvith these 12. articles vve ansvver that the sacrament of our baptisme doth not binde vs in all points to the opinions of them who baptised vs but in the faith of him in whose name we were baptised and to the doctrine of the 12. articles then propounded vnto vs for as if a man were christened of an heretique the baptisme notwithstanding were good and the partie baptised not bound to hold that heresie so if our godfathers oâ— fathers which christened vs were taught any thing not consonant to Christian doctrine neither is our baptisme worse for that nor we bound to follow them in all points especially beeing caried away vnwittingly by subtill deceiuers from the truth Thus good mother is your doubt truely answered and your heart I trust assured that by receiuing this faith novv established through her Maiesties most blessed hand in England you shall not depart from your vovve made at the some but keepe it nor svvarue from your faith vvherein you vvere baptized and vvhich your godfathers and godmothers helde but cleaue fast vnto it to Gods great glorie and your ovvn soules health M. Truely sonne you haue more satisfied me then I thought in this matter any man liuing could haue done And I see there is great mistaking in many matters for vvant of loue one to endure talke with another Whilest I liue therefore I will neuer refuse conference as I haue done and I wish with all mine heart that others whome I knowe woulde doe the like S. Yea mother but the enemie knowing the good hereof and what a fall his kingdome may thus take laboureth to stop that willingnes in men and womeÌ„ trained to their errors by taking othes of them not to doe it threatning all manner of danger to theÌ„ if they doe it and you would blesse your selfe to heare what grosse praises they vtter of ignorance and simple obedience without ground or reason saying it belongeth no more to you or any other to aske a reason of their teachings then it doth to the horse to know why his master turneth his head this way or that M. Mary God forbidde It is but a slaunder I hope as we are to light of beleefe on both sides S. Truely Mother no slaunder nor mean mans doctrine but a great Cardinall of Rome although in this grosly carnall the Cardinall Cusanus The place is knowen and cannot be denied Excitationum lib. 6. pag. 547. I shall shewe you his wordes if I can borrowe the booke M There is a story as I remember in the olde testament of one that would condition to haue their right eies if he made peace with them Surely this is to take our right eies from vs not to suffer vs to vse reason and to aske for a satisfaction where we doubt True it is Mother It was Naash the Ammonite that so answered the men of Iabesh Gilead 1. Sam. c. 11.2 and you most rightly apply it full easie was it to rule and ouer rule to mocke and abuse the strong Sampson when once they had put out both his eies To tell vs that ignorance is the mother of deuotion when the Councell saith it is the mother of errour to tell vs that pearles may not be cast before swine the people may not haue the scriptures in english wheÌ„ it is spoken to all Ioh. 5. Search the scriptures to tell vs we will become heretiques if we meddle with the scriptures when Christ saith you erre because you know not the scriptures surely this is not to wish vs to see but to wish endâ—uour both to make and keepe vs blinde But I trust the god of all mercie and goodnesse will both giue sight and keepe sight in despite of all their fetching pollicies M. To returne then where we left you say our fathers held the faith of the 12. articles and were baptized in the same as we also are so that we forsake not their faith or the faith of our baptisme if we embrace the gospell nowe preached because in nothing it is contrarie to these articles notwithstanding you say they were happely touched with some errours of the time I pray you therefore what shall we say of them were they damned or saued if they were damned all why may not we doe as they did and hope of like mercy god being the same still and as rich in goodnesse and grace as euer S. Your question containeth two points one of the saluation or damnation of our fathers another of the imitation of them what is becoâ— of our father In both which I shall indeauour to giue you a tru answer And touching the first I say we ought not to sit in iudgement vpon our fathers for God was able to preserue them euen in that darke time wherein they liued as he preserued the bush in the middest of the flame Daniel in the Lyons den the three children in the furnace and the Israelites in the red sea for all these were in mans eye subiect to daunger and yet by a powerfull hand of an omnipotent god saued And by the manifolde graces of god vouchsafed vnro our fathers we may comfortably hope that almighty God was willing also to preserue theÌ„ vnto an euerlasting inheritance and did that which he was able to doe vnto them for they were good meÌ„ and good women in their times charitable and merciful iust and true in their dealings their honest word was better then many a mans bond nowe they brought vp their children in honest labour not in idlenesse and vanitie they were giuen to hospitalitie they hated pride loued plainnes they loued the Church went duly vnto it in a worde as one saith of them though they had minùs scientiae lesse knowledge yet they had plus conscientiae more conscience wherfore that god that thus wrought in them by his guiding grace I may well and cheerefully hope was further also good vnto them and had mercy vpon them pulling them out of the fire as S. Iude saith yea I haue heard of some that in those darke times deliuered to their children some little treatises of Wickleff and badde them keepe them secret and yet reade
them and marke them which argued a touch in their hearts more then the worlde saw or they had strength and boldnesse publikely to make shewe of One mother I coulde name to you that albeit shee did as the time then was yet hadde shee an olde Psalter in english and before her children beeing younge would often reade on it giuing them admonition in diuers points according to her motherly care and by name when shee came to those wordes They haue eies and see not feete haue they and goe not hands and handle not noses and smell not neither is there any breath in their mouthes cursed are all they that make them and so are all they that put their trust in them Marke children would shee say what those Images you see in the Churches bee they cannot see goe handle or smell they haue no life and therefore we may not worship or trust in them they are cursed that make them as you heare and no doubt but there will come a time when they will bee taken away By which we plainely see there was more in many of our good forefathers for doe you thinke god was the god onely of this good woman more I say then the course of time yeelded theÌ„ and therefore great testimonies that god saued them euen in the furnace and in the Lyons denne that is in the darke time and time of daunger Therefore farre be it from vs to iudge of them otherwise then well They liue with the Lord God I most comfortably hope M. This reuereÌ„t coÌ„ceit of your elders sonne I trust is a signe of Gods grace in you and your hope is grounded vpon good presumptions But why then may not wee nowe follow their course as I said hope of like mercy also with them why we may not imitate â—â—r forefathers S. Deare mother let not me answere you but heare and weigh with your selfe what S. Cyprian that learned and holy father answereth whose words are these I know you vnderstand them Ignosci potuit simpliciter erranti post inspirationem verò revelationem factam qui in eo quo errauerat perseuerat sine veniâ ignorantiae peccat praesumptione enim at que obstinatione superatur M. Me thinks I vnderstand this sentence to be thus much in english To one that of simplicity erreth pardon may be giuen but who so after knowledge reuealed and gratiously offered continueth in his errour that man or that woman sinneth without hope of pardon for their ignorance for he or shee is wholly carried away vvith presumption and obstinacie Which senteÌ„ce if it be that godly fathers surely it ought to be well weighed of al that mean not to be so ouercome And for my part I doe thinke and will thinke of it S. Surely mother they are his very wordes and for the sence well translated by you And blessed be God for your good taking of these graue speeches of great lights and worthy teachers in their times The wordes are in his 62. epistle as I shall shewe you when I come to the booke And since my wordes finde comfortable fauour with you let me I pray further shew you how Satan hath alwaies vsed to deceiue men by these meanes and howe God hath giuen councell to the contrary Cresconius the heretique said to S. Augustin Our fathers receiued this of their fathers before theÌ„ And S. Augustin answered him sed errantes ab errantibus but them men deceiued receiued it of men that were deceiued before them Even as the Iewes at this day receued of their fathers and their fathers likewise receiued it before them of their fathers and so from father to father since the suffering of Christ which is now almost 1567 yeares that Christ did not rise againe but that his disciples came whilest the watchmen slept stole his body away Now is this wicked falshood true because by tradition from father to sonne it hath beene continued and taught amongst the Ievves for so many yeres god forbid We beleeue the contrary as an article of our faith and therefore you see this argument from our forefathers is dangerous and may carrie vs into great errors if vve take not heede This notable ansvvere of S. Augustin and this worthy example woulde neuer be forgotten Another great heretique called Eutiches that denied the humanity of our Sauiour beeing conuented for it in the Councell of Chalcedon fled likewise to this defence and cried â—ct 1. Sic à progenitoribus meis accipiens credidi in hac fide genitus sum consecratus deo inea opto mori this faith I haue receiued from my auncestoures and forefathers in this faith I was borne and baptized and in this faith I desire to die And yet that faith an horrible heresie as you haue heard denying that Iesus Christ was man Auxentius the Arrian heretique made this his refuge and told theÌ„ that sought his reformation Quemadmodem ab infantiâ doctus sum ita crediat credo Even as from mine infancy I haue heene taught so I haue beleeued and doe beleeue S. Hilary reporteth thus of him By which examples wee plainely see what an olde ginne of Satan this is to intangle vs with the doings of our forefathers and to make vs beleeue that the following of them in all things is a praise for vs and that we ought not in any thing to slippe away from them But it is not soe God hath otherwise taught vs auncient fathers haue othewise preached and written and the matter of our eternall saluation is weighty We must beware vnto the former examples ad that of the Iewes so notable in the prophet where beeing rebuked of the prophet Ieremy for their Idolatry God so commanding him they flatly answered as these heretiques before named and as they of the Romish Church still daily answere The worde which thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lord we will not heare it of thee but as our forefathers haue done our kings and our princes in the city ot Iudah so will we doe euen whatsoeuer goeth out of our owne mouth as to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offrings vnto her for then had we plentie of victualls and were well and felt no euill but since we left of to burne incense to the Queene of heauen and to powre out drinke offerings vnto her we haue scarcenesse of all things and haue bene consumed by the sword and famine c. I doubt not mother but you marke this place well for indeede it is a verie notable and pregnant example to this ende we nowe speak of and the words are as it we heard all the Romish Catholicks speake together so iumpe they with them And so like is Satan to himselfe in his trickes and deuises to deceiue Gods people But nowe what saith God Doeth be like of this answere and of this heady and vnadvised following of their auncestoures No No neither euer will he like of it
it publikly in all partes or the most of Christendome since the happy time of our blessed Sauiour and therefore that our Church hath alvvaies bin a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their ovvne shame if Saint Augustin may be iudge vvho calleth Rome in regard of this pompe and pride the Western Babylon the second Babylon another Babylon de cinit d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27 the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly citie Yet for their further satisfaction I further aske of them doe not they thēselues say they beleeue all these former points doe they not stand vpon it that they haue euer so professed Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and vveight or any other part of doctrine besides these absolutely necessarie to saluation vvhy then doe they aske vs vvhere and by vvhome this religion of ours vvas professed before Luthers time May vve not vvell and charitably affirme that it vvas professed in Fraunce Spaine and Italy yea in Rome euer since first Rome embraced the gospell preached by the Apostles Doubtlesse I am persvvaded that many thousands euen nowe in these countries where the popes keyes preuaile doe truely hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creede and Athanasius his creede which he calleth the Catholike faith with all the other points of doctrine set down before which if they doe holding the foūdation though they build vpon it woode hay 〈◊〉 3. or stubble that is some erroneous doctrine yet they are the true Church of God and shall be saued A pearle is a pearle though in an heape of dust wine is wine though mingled with water and wheate is wheate though couered with much chaffe and is not the mysterie of godlinesse whereof Paul speaketh god manifested in the flesh 〈◊〉 3. iustified in the spirit seene of Angels preached vnto the Gentils beleeued on in the world receiued vp in glorie still the mysterie of godlinesse and that trueth and sure foundation whereō the house of god is builded though matter vnsutable vnto it be laide vpon it yes verely And therefore seing the Church of Rome hath euer held the misterie of godlinesse though mingled with many dregs of mens inuentions I doubt not but God hath euer had a people amongst them and a true Church more then 7000. which haue not bowed the knee vnto Baal what we are to thinke of their leaders and teachers which indeed haue corrupted this doctrine with their owne leauen and endeauoured by all meanes to shut vp and obscure this mysterie is another question especially for those that haue done it wilfully and malitiously and died in that malice But of the rest thus we iudge and thus we answere that so many as truely holde and professe all the former articles of doctrine as I assure my selfe many doe are fellowe members with vs in the same mysticalll bodie whereof Christ is the head And therefore our church hath euer beene in theirs though not euer so manifest to the eye of the worlde as it was for the space of the first fiue hundred yeares Me thinkes this answere should well content them and fully satisfie them being so charitable towards them But to giue them an answere of their owne and by themselues to let them see that the true Church is not alwaies so visible as they pretende They knowe that nowe in England they haue not authoritie to countenance their religion and Church and yet they say that they haue a Church amongest vs and where they dare well say it they are bold to say it is a great one yea the greter part though I trust they shall neuer prooue it in that number Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the vnthankefulnesse of men with taking awaie our publike and autorised assemblies may not we as well haue a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word as they now a flocke cleauing to the Bishop of Rome M. Rome hath alwaies beene called the Mother Church and they doe ioyne with that Rome is not he mother Church S. Howe can Rome be the mother church when shee is later then those first churches of Hierusalem and Antioche Can a mother be yonger then her daughters or her daughters elder then their mother The very scriptures teach vs that all churches and euen Rome it selfe haue risen out of the Churche of Hierusalem Fou out of Sion shall his lavve come and the word from Hierusalem M. You answer me well that Rome cannot be the mother Church of al because other churches haue beene before her Neuertheles of this Church of England shee is rightly the mother because this land receiued the faith frō her first by Eleutherius the Pope and martir who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius and after by Gregory the great who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our auncestours the english who then were planted here and had remooued the Brittaines into an other corner S. Deare mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his pretious blood But it hath beene answered truely that this can not be so For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Lucius his message that he had the scriptures wherin were the lawes of God farre more to be regarded then the Romane lawes he praiseth his zeale and telleth him that out of the scriptures with the aduise of his counsell he might draw conuenient lawes for his kingdome he beeing in his owne land Christs vicar c. Howe then was Eleutherius his first Apostle Againe doth not Nicephorus plainely saie in his story Simō Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulasque Brittanicas perfert Lib. 2. c. 40 Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospell vnto the west Ocean sea and vnto the Islandes of Britraine This was before Eleutherius Doe not others write that Ioseph of Arimathea did it hat S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain did it and alleadge authors for it Might not the Greekes doe it or some others since euidently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own cōfession he was not the first Then for Augustine and the rest doe not these plaine testimonies of the fathers vsually alleadged to this end satisfie any man liuing not way warde that this land had the faith before him and them Tertullian liued about the yeare of our Lord 210. And his words are these Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo 〈◊〉 Iudaeos The countries of Britane which the Romanes coulde never attaine vnto are now subiect to Christ Origen about the yeare 212 writeth Ezech. hom Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit The land of Britane hath yeelded to Christ his religion ◠Apolog. 2. Athanasius about the yeare three hundred thirtie foure hath the like