Councell to be matters of faith if you doe you can neuer performe what you haue promised I desired you therefore M. Fisher to expresse without ambiguitie the termes of this question whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages What you meane by Church what by Protestants what by visible I will deliuer my opinion in defining a Protestant Church The Protestant Church is a societie of men professing the faith expressed in the Canonicall Scriptures acknowledged to be such in the Primitiue Church comprised in the Apostles Creede explained in the other two Creedes of Nice Athanasius Ministring the Sacraments of Baptisme and the Lords Supper by men of lawfull Ordination and calling Such a societie as this was in all ages Ergo. The Protestant Church was in all ages I desire you also to distinguish betweene matters of Discipline Doctrine Secondly to distinguish betweene 1. Doctrine Accessorie And 2. Doctrin Fundamentall Matter of faith consisteth not in Discipline but Doctrine and that Doctrine not accessorie but fundamentall By this distinction I meane the same which Aquinas doth by Res fidei 1. Per Se. 2. Per Accidens I distinguish betweene 1. Affirmation And 2. Negation In those Articles of our English Church our negation is partly a trauersing partly a condemning of your nouelties and additions and therefore no part of our faith for no man would deny his owne faith In all these I defend the Negatiue and so it doth belong to you to proue the affirmatiue Which when you shall do by testimony of writers in all ages I will yeeld to you For you prouing the affirmatiue the negatiue will fall of it selfe As for example the first instance of negation in our Articles is no part of the sixt Article concerning those Bookes of Esdras Tobie Iudith c which we receiue not for Canonicall you doe the proofe is on your side What I require of you I wil performe on our side whatsoeuer is affirmatiue in our Articles I will maintaine to be affirmed and taught in all ages as the 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Articles the affirmatiue part of the 6. 7. 8 and so in the rest or I will yeeld vnto you giue me instance with affirmation of our Articles you deny and I will proue it in all ages and I desire you to set downe withall which of our affirmatiue Articles you receiue and whether we agree in the Articles of the Creede or not I will do the like by you and giue you an instance in your affirmatiues shew me who in euery age did receiue the Bookes of Esdras Machabies Tobit Iudeth c. for Canonicall in the 1. 2. 3. 4 centure of yeares this is one of the first points of your Tridentiue faith I desire you also M. Fisher for the avoyding of confusion to deliuer your opinion whether all the affirmatiue Doctrines of the Councell of Trent are matters of faith Per se fundamentall and necessarie to be held for saluation Fide explicata I speake de adubtis quibus facultas datur discendi And I do confesse that none of your side or ours haue giuen me â—ull satisfaction in this point which are Res fidei per se I therefore propose this M. Fisher as desirous to learne and to lay a foundation for further proceeding in this point of the visible Church Neither will I be sparing to deliuer my opinion with submission to better men and better leasure of my owne hauing bin these 6 moneths far from my Bookes and farther from leasure or repose to study I doe not thinke that all the affirmatiue Doctrines contained in our Articles are Res fidei per se fundamentall necessarie to saluation I therefore distinguish between Dogmata 1. Scholae these denied worke a priuat dissention 2. Ecclesiae these work an externall seperatioÌ„ from the Church 3. Fidei These denied worke an eternall damnation By Ecclesiae I meane not the essentiall Church but representatiue whether generall nationall or prouinciall That it is onely an error in the latter which is damnable not in the first and second vnlesse it be with obstinacy I will giue you instance as well as I can being without my Bookes Consubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 not a Church tenent Transubstantiation was a Church tenent after the yeare 1200. 1. Ecclesiae Romanae but the reall presence vnderstanding thereby not a bodily presence but a true relation a Sacramentall obligation and spirituall exhibition of his body is Res fidei a point of faith Or thus Transubstantiation was a Schoole tenent Anno 1100 a Church tenent Anno 1215 defined by Innocentius 3 in concil Latera but no point of faith because the bodie of religion or points of faith are without addition As Lyrinensis inuitetur animarum religio rationem corporum quae quotparuilorum membra tot virorum And as Aquinas saith The Articles of faith do grow quoad Explicationem Non Quod ad substantiam That which was no point of faith for the first 1200 yeares could be none afterwards vt supra Vincentius Lerinensis Aquinas But transubstantiation was no point of faith before the yeare 1200 Scotus Ergo transubstantiation is no point of faith If I doe not cite the words of Scotus aright impute it to my want of bookes for I haue none at this time yet I would lay the foundation of a friendly conference without trickes ambiguitie or bitternes I desire you also to obserue in the citing of the Fathers to alledge nothing for your opinion but what that Father hath held written and taught apertè frequenter perseueranter or at least that his words be plaine and his opinion such as that he hath not after recanted or crossed in his later workes I thinke it reasonable also that if I will iustifie the faith which is publikely professed and recessitated by our Church that I produce not onely some particular men deliuering their opinions but also proofes of some Church or visible societie who publikely professed the same faith in all ages The like I expect from you So the first thing is to expresse what is your faith what is ours Next what Society in all ages professed and publikely recessitated with your Church or ours doe publikely teach and recessitate I meane affirmatiuely not negatiuely for no man doth teach or recessitate what he doth denie This I haue briefely done in the definition of a Protestant Church I pray you giue me a definition of the Romane Church Whereas you say that all our Ministers are sworne to the 39 Articles you are deceiued it is not so FINIS A DIALOGVE CONCERNING THIS QVESTION VVhere was your Church before Luther and Caluin Giuing good directions how to discouer FISHERS folly By VV. C. Printed M.DC.XXIII Mr. W. C. his Dialogue concerning this question VVhere was your Church before Luther A Dialogue betweene E and D. E. ANswer this question Where was your Church before Luther D. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one countrey
sometime in another as it pleased God in his wise dispensation who caries the light of his Gospell as hee doth the Sunne through the world to illuminate nations at seuerall times therewith according to his will E. That is a faire generall but will you tell vs who were these what countrey people what Doctors who taught as yee teach D. Looke the Churches of Asia Africke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mystery of iniquitie caâ—e to the height and you shall see that they all had the same doctrine aâ—d forme of a Church that wee haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion E. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did D. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant E How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in all things in one harmonie D. I grant they should and thanks be to God they do also in all substantiall things which are the Articles of our faith The Buckler of Faâ—â—â— published in French by M. Peter du Moulin translated into English twise printed Anno 1624 is a most excellent book for these present times concerning Luther c. let Luther answer it at his best leâ—sure or Sweet or Anthony 〈◊〉 of any Iesuit or Masse-priest whosoeuer But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may be ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches E. That seemes to be hard indeed D. You haue reason for you so to think For in one age Victor with the Church in the West was in a different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine and the first â—athers of the primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as wee doe that therefore they were not a Church E. It is no reason D. Cyprian in the point of rebaptizing taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that he was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church E. It followes not indeed D. VVhy then do you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Calvin who in all points taught as wee teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from another but as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Augustine Luther and Calvin haue all deliuered one doctrine and did teach the way of God truly E. Then you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion D. I thinke so indeed and hope to die in the same faith wherein they liued and died E. It would be thought strange to heare that in Italy that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion D. No marvell though it be strange there where truth is a stranger but this answer was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church The light of Cambridge M. Doctor Whitakers in Camplanum M. Doctor Whitakers and yet we stand to it Patros in maximis sunt nostri in multis narij in minimis vestri Such Fathers saith Doctor Whitakers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many things are doubtfull in smallest things they are yours E. Well I will remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church D. Answer me but another question and it shall resolue you E. What is that D. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall flie to the Desert that is as themselues expound it The Rhemists vpon Reuel 11. The Church shall be without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it be vnknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may be seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholikes in many parts of England E. What doth that helpe you D. Very much That which they themselues say will be done we say is done Antichrist hath already chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecuâ—ed it as this day may be seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France E. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much D. VVhat greater clearnesse can you craue If this answer be good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will be obscured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath been obscured by Antichrist and yet was E. The answer is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularly D. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I cannot point forth men preaching and professing as we doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistrie I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwayes in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin were borne E. Make that good D. See Reinerus vpon the Apoc. Reinerus a popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeares ago speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae saith they were more pernicious to the Church of Rome then all other sects 3. Reasons why the Waldenâ—es much vexed the Rom. Church for three causes First because it hath been of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no Land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other Sects doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creed onely they blaspheme and hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimonie of an enemie making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther E. 1. but he calls them a Sect and sayes they blasphemed the Church D. So the Priests of the Iewes called the Church of Christians a Sect
of Nazarites Acts 24.5 what is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had been from the beginning secondly had been in all countreys and thirdly was honest in life and sound in faith saue onely that they held the Church of Rome to be the Whore of Babel And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may be further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach If our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also E. That cannot be denied D. Well then if you please name me any controuersie of religion The Ancient Fathers concerning any article of faith between vs and the Papists this day and you shall see that the ancient Fathers take our part in it E. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength and trust in the ancient Fathers D. Brag what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of Fathers and decke their errors with it but we shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie and you shall trie that which I say to be a truth E. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of them to name first D. Then will it please you to take a view of those which I haue gathered for my owne priuate vse E. With a very good will let me see what they are D. They are noted set downe in foure special books of the Protestants and I haue obserued and collected them for my owne comfort and confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the primitiue Church produced in these foure speciall books 1. Doctor White his Way to the true Church 2. Illyricus his Catalogus testim veritatis augmented twice by Goularitus 3. Doctor Reinolds his fiue conclusions or Theses the fift quinta Conclus quinta Thes in English but more large in Latin 4. Polanus his Symphonia Catholica speciall bookes writ by foure Protestant Preachers expounded the Scriptures conformable to the doctrine of our teachers I was greatly therein confirmed for these are the two great props of our faith which â—inentius giues vs against all heresies Cap. 2. E. You haue reason for you for if your doctrine be so warranted Two maine props proofs of religion both by diuine authoritie of God in his word and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church they are to be iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you D. These points are so fully performed as I haue said in three special books by three worthy Protestant Diuines and so methodically set downe that I thinke my shewing to you of these three bookes and your reading of them will most fully content and satisfie you I say againe by Gods help they will giue you most full satisfaction as also to all others who with indifferencie wil vouchsafe to reade them F. I pray you who be those three Diuines who haue writ those three bookes and which be the bookes D. Doctor White is the first and the booke is his Way to the true Church E. Which is the second D. Flaâ—cus Illyricus his Catalogus testium veritatis augmented twice by Simon Goulartius set out by him the second time in one volume in a large Folio E. Which is the third D. Doctor Reinolds his six Conclusions in English placed at the end of his Conference with Hart but it is his fift Conclusion which I meane for this purpose quinta Conclus or his six Theses in Latin of his last augmented Edition and thereof I meane his fift Thes quinta Thes more full then the English E. And what haue these foure Diuines performed in those foure bookes to giue comfort content and satisfaction on this very point we haue now in hand viz. Where your Church doctrine teachers were before Luther for I assure you this is the maine matter which troubleth many at this present for Campian was not so busie in Queen Elizabeths dayes with his Audito nomine Ecclesiae hostis expalluit but Fisher Sweet Clarke and other Iesuites are as busie now in King Iames his dayes euen at this present with their Where was your Church before Luther Where your Preachers where your professors where your doctrine let vs heare their names Names names names names cries the Fisher catched in his owne Net D. What haue they performed enough at the full in the mercie of God to satisfie you and all other indifferent Readers that without preiudice looke into those their labours E. How might I come by those bookes may I meet with them in Pauls Church-yard for I would very gladly buy them D. You may most easily but stay let mee a little call back that word for they are so fast bought vp that I doubt they are almost out of print for and that worthily they are exceedingly in request E. So much the more the Printers are too blame that they giue not a second impression to them D. A second impression say you why Doctor Whites Way to the true Church hath beene printed foure seuerall times now within a few yeares and notwithstanding are almost all sold vp but I heare a fifth impression is now in hand Polanus his Symphonia Illyricus and Doctor Reinolds their bookes before named haue beene diuers times imprinted also so that you need not blame the Printers who are carefull to make new impressions and new supplies of bookes so worthy and so much in request and so greatly sought after E. This should argue that their bookes by Gods blessing are very powerfull and win many to the truth they vent so exceedingly fast D. O yes God be thanked preaching and writing succeed happily with a blessed successe doubt you not but at this day for one Papist England doth enioy xx xl yea rather an hundred Protestants Masses and stage-playes grow odious E. You make me long for these foure bookes I would gladly be in hand with them D. Why Sir seeing your longing is so great I haue them at hand for you vse them so long as you please now I fetch them out of my Studie E. Are these they Sir I pray you D. Yes indeed these are the very bookes E. Now I pray you Sir before that we open them tell me in briefe what they say and performe in these matters D. That good Sir I will most willingly performe E. And I most willingly listen and giue attentiue care vnto you D. God direct with his holy Spirit and giue a blessing in his Sonne Christ Iesus These foure bookes following do fully furnish any Scholler to make answer to all Iesuits Masse-priests Fisher Clarke Sweet c. to that question Where was your Religion before
faith But the Protestant faith hath beene so maintained by such Authors Ergo The Protestant faith hath been maintained in all ages The Names of such as professed the faith of the Protestants in all ages since the incarnation of Christ In euery centure of yeares which is called saculum an age I will name some writers whose workes are extant Ab anno 1. ad 100. In the first centure Christ himselfe and his Apostles and Euangelists Ab 100 ad 100. In the second age Saint Iohn the Euangelist who died either Anno 100 or 101 to him we adde Ignatius and Polycarpus who though they liued in part of the first age and part of the second age they are alwayes reckoned Fathers of that age in which they dyed to these I adde Iustin Martyr Iraenaeus Ab â—â—â— ad 3â—0 Tertullian Clemens Alexandrinus Origen Cyprian Lacâ—antius Ab 300. ad 400 Athanasius Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus Ambrosius Gregorius Mystenus Hieronymus Ruffinus Chrysostomus Ab 400. ad 500. Augustinus Cyrillus Alexandrinus Theodoretus Vincentius â—â—riuensis Socrateâ— Zozomen Chrysologus Ab 500. ad 600 Bulgentius â—uâ—grius Gregorius primus Ab 70â— ad â—00 Beda Damascenus Alcuâ—nus Thus hauing gon halfe the way I conclude with this Argument The Protestants saith is plainely expressed in the Canonicall Scripture and comprised in the Apostles Creede All these Fathers did professe that faith which is contained in the holy Canonicall Scripture and comprised in the Apostles Creede Ergo All these did professe the Protestants faith As I admonished Mr. Fisher to distinguish betweene Affirmation and Negation so I do these men and that faith is Affirmation not Negation for no man beleeueth which he denieth Secondly in point of faith I like Mr. Fe. rule They that are in the affirmatiue must proue now all that we affirme they affirme as one God three Persons all the Creede so that we neede not proue what our aduersaries doe confesse But in those points in variance betweene vs they are to proue because they are affirmatiue we negatiue as vnwritten Traditions Latin Seruice inuocation of Saints c. The Protestants faith being that which is contained in the Scriptures receiued foâ— vndoubtedly Canonicall in the first 400. yeares which is summarily comprised in the Apostles Creede is receiued by all the Orthodox Fathers But those Fathers aboue named be all Orthodox Ergo The Maior is manifest the Minor I will proue out of their owne Authors concerning all sauing Tertullian in whom I must distinguish the times for first he was Orthodox though after an Heretike Hauing gone thus far at this time I vndertake for the rest and do require the like from the Romanists viz. That they will shew me the Names of such as taught the now saith of the Church of Rome in all ages and let them set me down the Names as I haue done And for instances in points of Romane faith in all ages I require these men to shew me the Names of those who in the 1. 2. 3. centure of yeares did preach or professe vnwritten traditions to be the rule of faith 2 that the vulgar translation is authenticall 3 that there are 7 Sacraments properly so called and no more 4 that the Bookes of the Machabes are Canonicall 5 transubstantiation 6 Inuocation of Saints 7 worshipping of Images c. This rule is proposed by them which though it be no necessarie consequence of faith yet it bindeth them that propose it to make good in particular out of their owne position thus I argue That is the true Church whose faith hath had visible professors in all ages The Romish faith had not visible professors in all ages Ergo The Romane Church is not a true Church An other Argument The true faith hath the testimonies of Vniuesalitie Antiquitie and Consent But the Romish faith as farre as they differ from the Protestant faith which they do in all the points aboue alledged hath not testimonies of 1. Vniuersalitie 2. Antiquitie 3. And Consent Ergo The Romish faith is not a true faith Let the Romanists answer these two Arguments in those particular points aboue written and I will be of their Church An Admonition to the Reader I Do not so meane that those Fathers by me named haue expressely set downe euery point of our faith in their seuerall writings neither can the Church of Rome doe it for theirs But being Orthodox right beleeuing Fathers they did consequently maintaine the Scriptures Apostles Creede Some passages had between Master Rogers and Master Fisher the Iesuite as followeth Fisher It being granted that there must be a visible Church in all ages of which all sorts must learne faith necessarie to saluation Rogers The perpetuall visibilitie of the Church I acknowledge But I pray you set me downe what a visible Church is and what you meane by those wordes which you put of another letter who you meane by all sorts whether the Children who die before they come to yeares of discretion doe learne this faith or dying before they come to learne it be not after Baptisme parts of the visible Church Secondly What you meane by learne whether an actuall explicite knowledge or an habituall only implicite knowledge Thirdly What points of faith you hold necessary to saluation The question propounded by M. Fisher at the intreaty of a Gentleman who desired satisfaction was Fisher Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all ages especially in the ages before Luther and whether the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors Rogers A Church professing the same faith which the Protestants now doth was visible in all ages and I doe vndertake to proue it out of good Authors Fisher Mr. Fisher vndertooke to defend the negatiue part so as it did belong to his aduersaries to proue the affirmatiue M. Fisher explicated the meaning of his question to be First That his aduersaries should set down Names of men in all ages which they thought to be Protestants Secondly That they should shew out of good Authors proofe that they were Protestants Thirdly That they should defend them to hold nothing contrary to the Doctrin of the Protestants contained in the 39 Articles vnto which all English Ministers are sworne Rogers To the Second First I will show the Names of such as maintained our now faith in all ages and bring good proofe To the Third First It is no preiudice to our faith if the same Authors doe differ from vs in other opiniâ—ns not concerning faith as long as they maintain our faith Secondly The Church of Rome cannot produce Fathers in all ages who doe not contradict the Councell of Trent in some Doctrines established in the said Councell Fisher Mr. Fisher offered me a like proportion to name and proue and defend professors of Romane religion holding nothing contrarie to the Doctrine defined in the Councell of Trent Rogers You must expresse whether you haue all things defined in that