of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
I in my Argument nor you in your Answer vse those words 〈◊〉 aeterno Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference viz. That Church whose faith is eternall and pâ—â—petuall and vnchanged is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as the Popiâ—â— Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee You answer That the Maior is not vniuersally true for that there may be a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged As for example A Church of Angels who for want of visible professors are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be Quid ad Rombum What is this instance to the purpose I dispute of the Church on earth you answer of the Church in heauen I dispute of faith you answer of vision I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages you answer of a Church in which there is no succeeding nor Ages I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors Martyrs who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud you answer of immortall Spirits In a word I dispute of men named in good Authors and Histories you answer of Angels whose names are written in heauen and were neuer vpon visible Record except two or three named in the Scriptures Page 31. To those words of mine I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio à genere in genus such was my Argument for faith in a beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof You reply That M. Sweet 's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed if hee had tearmed that 〈◊〉 to weet proouing the effect by the cause transitio à genere in genus for a cause as a cause an effect as an effect doe not onely differ specie but also genere and besides a proofe à priori and à posteriori are diuers kindes of proofes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I dispute of a transition à genere in genus in rebus you answer of a transition in notionibus I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing I speake of genus in Scientijs you answer of 〈◊〉 in the predicables or predicants so well in defence of M. Sweet you obserue M Sweets pretended Law of speaking nothing but to the purpose But certainely you saw not the But and somissed the mark reading M. Sweets Law without it thus Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose Euery Puney in Logick can tell you that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus is the proouing of a conclusion in one science by the principles of another distinct from it and no way subalternall to it As for example To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick by principles in Geometrie or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus should stand euery demonstration of the effect by the cause à priori or of the cause by the effect 〈◊〉 posteriori in the same Science should bee a transitio à genere in genus because as you say the cause as a cause and the effect as an effect differ genere for which ignorant Arguing as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference so you M. Fisher for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues Page 65. You alledge this for a reason why you refused to answer Christ his Apostles for that say you All disputation about particulars before the true Church were by her perpetuall Visibility or some such euident marke found out and knowne would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference had with a certaine Minister would not enter into any particulars vntill he had asked these generall Questions First what ground the Minister would stand vpon c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer you bring-in by the head and eares a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister and an acute Disputant touching the merit of works What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church or a Catalogue of Names If this bee not transitio à genere in genus I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression for I drew you not to dispute about any particulars but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self to weet that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith might be produced viz. Christ his twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatius to whom after you had giuen your Answer Whether they taught our faith or yours I would haue gone on in like manner in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages Now then let the Reader iudge whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits were any way necessary or pertinent Page 68. 69 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions to prooue that Hereticks who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches and refused also some Scriptures or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The sentences indeed you cite are golden but you apply them most leadenly for what Protestant whom by a ridiculous 〈◊〉 principij or begging the Question you stile Hereticks what Protestant I say euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches as they were in the Primitiue Times much lesse either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures by addition or detraction Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures and the ancient mother-Mother-church of which Tertullian speaks who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues then you do we willingly put our whole cause in their hands wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires Tertullian speaks of Prooue that the Apostles or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them held your trent-Trent-faith or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piuâ— in the end of that Councell and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto and then I will acknowledge that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures And if we prooue not that we
Prince Castilians Courtier namely Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia extra anni solisque vias To vndertake to make a demonstration consisting ex veris primis immediatis prioribus notioribus causis conclusionis is all one saith Ludouicus Viues as if to cure a most dangerous disease a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples the first whereof is found in India the second amongst the Ceres the third in the Riphean Hilles and the fourth in the nest of a Phenix If that demonstration which they call potissima the soueraigne demonstration and non parâ—iell containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe consisting of all tearmes reciprocall and all propositions inabled and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de omni per se et quatenus ipsum were any where in vse it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks the most certaine Science and fullest of euident demonstrations but Pererius the Iesuite and others with him vndertake to prooue that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude that such absolute demonstrations exalted to the highest degree of necessity presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding are meere imaginary speculations Let the Philosophers and Logicians among themselues end this controuersie I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side But setting aside that Idea of demonstration and speaking of such demonstrations à priori or à causâ as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration as demonstrations go current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick The Church holding the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith c. For the Maior or first proposition it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before in the setting downe of the state of the Question touching the Visibility of the Church assertion the fourth and partly vpon that Text of the Apostle With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse and with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true because this eternall faith is the formall cause constituting and making the true Church for as Laurentius rightly argueth Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam quatâ—nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei Romani c. sedquatenus sunt fideles ergo fides doctrina fidei est causa formalis interna Ecclesiae et per eam Ecclesia constituitur et per eandem dignoscitur Men make not the Church simply as they are Europeans or Romanes or Africans or Britans or the like but as they are of the faithfull or holding the faith therefore faith and the Doctrine thereof is the formall and internall cause of the Church and by it the Church is made a Church and distinguished from all other societies Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith a proper attribute or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demonstrated of the proper subiect the true Church by the proper and neerest cause the eternity of faith and what more is to be required in a true demonstration à priori You will say this demonstrateth that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible but not that the Protestant Church I reply either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church or not if it be supposed to bee the true Church then hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted then you should haue primarily denied this and put vs to the proofe of it which beeing prooued would inferre the Visibility but this you did not and I think durst not in the Conference for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced yet now since the Conference you are growne so hardy as to deny it and therefore thus I proue it A Church holding professing entirely the perpetuall faith needfull to saluation is a true Church The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith c. Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur. The Maior is confessed of all sides and must be so because there is no saluation without the Church where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed there must needs bee the Church The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed The Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the perpetuall faith c. The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth The Assumption is thus confirmed The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures contained in the three Creeds The Apostles Creed the Nicen Creed and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures and contained in the three Creeds and foure Councels aboue-named Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints In this last Syllogisme the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies First by the publique profession and practice of the Church of England and other Protestant Churches Secondly by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith out of the principles aboue-named Thirdly by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe And first it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches that the Protestant Doctrine is that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued vnder paine of eternall damnation which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named and for the foure first generall Councels there is no Protestant who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood if hee be cald thereunto Secondly there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance where and when they will we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field On the contrarie besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture therefore according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques Cùm
ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē nō enim per literas traditā illam sed per viuam vocē When they are conuinced by Scripture they fall on accusing the Scriptures thēselues as if they were not as they ought to be or were not of authoritie and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered and that out of them the truth cānot be found by those who are ignorant of tradition for that it viz. the truth was not deliuered by letters but by word of mouth Is not this in part your plea at this day that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities that they receyue countenance whole authority quoad nos from the Church that the written Word without vnwritten traditions is not sufficient Thirdly there is no positiue Article of our faith which you your selues or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique therefore wee are on a sure ground euen by your owne confession To instance in most of the principall Articles First wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God you beleeue them also to bee so but adde vnto them the Apocrypha Secondly wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments in Hebrew and Greek to bee authenticall and of vndoubted authoritie you I hope beleeue so too but you adde that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also Thirdly wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith you beleeue so but adde thereunto the vnwritten word Fourthly we beleeue that Christ is the Head of his Church you beleeue so likewise but adde vnto him a visible Head the Pope Fiftly we beleeue that there are two places Heauen for them that shall bee saued and Hell for them that shall bee damned you beleeue so too but adde thereunto other places more Purgatorie Limbus patrum and Limbus infantum Sixtly wee beleeue that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth you beleeue so too but you adde that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images Seuenthly we beleeue that we ought to call vpon God you beleeue so too but adde heereunto that you may call vpon Saints Eightthly we beleeue that Christ is our Mediator both of redemption and intercession you beleeue so too but you adde to him Angels and Saints vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie Ninthly we beleeue that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth and pray in generall for the Church militant you beleeue so too but adde that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities and pray to God in speciall for vs. Tenthly we beleeue that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church Baptisme and the Eucharist you beleeue so too but adde to them fiue other Matrimonie Penance Ordination Confirmation and Extreme Vnction Eleuenthly we beleeue that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort that all those who worthily receiue them participate also of sanctifying grace you beleeue so too but adde that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato a worse Solecism in Diuinity than in Grammar and that God is tied vnto them so that all children dying without Baptism are necessarily damned Twelfthly wee beleeue that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament you beleeue so too but you adde that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister Thirteenthly we beleeue that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body you beleeue so too but adde that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents the elements beeing transubstantiated Foureteenthly we beleeue that we are iustified and saued by the merits Passion of Christ you beleeue so too but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction Fifteenthly we beleeue that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth you beleeue so too but adde therunto that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also Sixteenthly we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds the Apostles the Nicene and that of Athanasius and the foure generall Councels you beleeue them also but adde a fourth Creed viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope and annexed to the Councell of Trent Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation you and in a manner all the Christians in the world hold as we And therefore our doctrine is Catholique according to Vincentius Rule quòd ab omnibus quòd vbique quòd semper whereas your additions to the Catholique faith were neuer maintained neither by all Christians in any Age nor by any Christians in all Ages Neither you nor all the Papists in the world are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith wherein you differ from vs to be Catholique And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration Obiect 1. First you say it conuinceth not the vnderstanding and therefore is no demonstration Answer This obiection of yours sheweth that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding It is not the property of a demonstration actually to conuince the vnderstanding but potentially or vertually The meaning of this Proposition A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding is this that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man to assent to the conclusion the premises beeing before apprehended by him and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause to weet the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him afterwards he must be taught that the Moon hath not light of her self but receiueth it from the Sunne thirdly that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines Fourthly it must be shewed how in such points called by Astronomers Caput cauda Draconis the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed whereby it comes to passe that by the interposition of the earth the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames And thus in the end the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth is eclipsed But the Moon in the points aboue-named viz. the head and taile of the Dragon is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne by the interposition of the earth Ergo the Moon alwaies in those
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
hold the ancient Primitiue faith wee will acknowledge that we haue no right vnto them nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other shall prooue by some other marks than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome that they are the heires of the Apostles we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master for our prime Euidence and surest Deed to make good our plea. Of the fift Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or vain repetitions For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament I need not alleage as I haue done before particular leaues and pages for you might far better haue intituled your whole book A Battologie than an Apologie or An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his own Net A judicious friend of mine to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print and demanded of him his iudgement of it returned it back again in the words of the Poet I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem Another said M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense were as irksome and tedious as his audible dilatory Answers and Teâ—giuersations in the Conference A third said He was sure that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial who professeth that rather than his Book should perish by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it hee would fill vp as many pages as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses with that Catholique Pateh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo ne pereat breâ—ibus mihi charta liâ—ellis Dicatur potiùs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To repeat particularly your vain repetitions would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you euen in the reprehension thereof and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Platâ— against Diogenes Fastum caleas sed 〈…〉 so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore passing them in 〈◊〉 from the contents of your Book I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text. Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference Protestant Relation EDVVARD BVGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeers being lately sick was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the protestant faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church There was no Catholike Church but theirs Master FIHSER's Answer How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false I will not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his religion c. Doctor FEATLYE's Reply Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds falsehoods for as they say in a Lamprey so in this whole treatise froÌ„ the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson throughout yet because the occasioÌ„ of the conference but little concernes the cause less me in sparing the Iesuites blame and penance I will spare mine owne paines and the Readers 〈◊〉 who I perswade my selfe will not much regard how wee came into the field but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne in the occasion Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers Master Walker and diuers other and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue my 〈…〉 Asteriskes when my tractate of the visibilitiâ—â—â— the Church which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light As for the relation of matter of fact so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together there needs no conteâ—ting Answer where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another I can answer no otherwise theÌ„ the Oâ—ator doth in the like kinde Accusatar dicit Marcus Sâ—â—â—rus negat Vtri â—redemus A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation a worthie Knight of knowne integrity who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them as followeth 〈…〉 The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite COncerning the occasion of the Conference I aâ—ow that according to his Maiesties command I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully to my best remembrance as is alreadie extant in print And whereas fol. 4. Master Fisher saith hee set downe two questions with my consent and the old Gentlemans the first whereof being allowed by both of vs Master Fisher wrote It is granted I affirme that in processe of discourse I then allowed that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times but that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was I vtterly denie And wheras page 12. Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie compared with the few which Master Fisher brought To this I say that vpon my credit I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting more then those that I inuited to dinner Howsoeuer I doubt not but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side and by this time is more asham'd of his cause then of the paucitie of his parties thâ—re present And yet I will let him know for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists I was able to number full twentie of that side present And verily had I purposedly drawn thither so much company the Iesuites ought me thanks for it as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause by bringing a troup of spectators to view the foyle of our own side in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs wherin forsooth the Protestants as is triumphed page 33. are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age tâ—at they are not able to name one to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles for they were not worthy to bee answered not one Author no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall Again page 16. whereas it is said there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet I answer that I was induced for certaine reasons then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation First the standers by did well perceyue that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing and writing