of this and shewe howe it maketh for M. PERKINS But to the purpose I answere that S. Iohn there doth put a playne difference betweene his owne baptisme and the baptisme of Christ saying of his owne That it was the baptisme of water nor giuing the holy Ghost as the baptisme of Christ should doe which also most of the Fathers both Greeke and Latin doe playnelie testifie and the wordes of the text doe euidently confirme the same Whence I reason thus S. Iohns baptisme was such an instrument and meanes of grace Mat. 1. as M. PER. describeth for there was a promise of remission of sinnes to him that receiued it with faith and repentance yet vvas it nothing comparable vnto Christes baptisme vvhich is nowe only vsed therefore Christes baptisme doth ouer and besides the representation of grace vvhich was in S. Iohns baptisme effectually conuay the same grace of the holy Ghost into our soules by the very applying of it to vs so that this worthy argument of his proceedeth wholy against himselfe He goeth forward and saith That Paul who trauayled of the Galatians and begat them by the Gospell 1. Cor. 3. vers 7. saith of himselfe that he is not any thing not only as he was a man but as be was a faithfull Apostle thereby excluding the whole euangelicall Ministery from the least part of diuine operation or efficacy in conferring grace Answere This is nothing to the purpose for S. Paul speaketh there of preaching the Gospell and we treate here of ministring the Sacraments Preaching as hath beene said doth not conferre grace of it selfe but by perswasion no more doth the preacher and so may be said to be nothing in that worke of producing grace and faith in the hearer but the Sacraments conferring grace he that administreth the Sacrament doth really concurre as an instrument of producing the same grace Moreouer such an instrument may be saâ—â— to be nothing because they themselues with al their endowments can doe nothing in that matter vnlesse they be therevnto applyed and moued by the principall agent vvhich is God as a penne or other instrument be it neuer so good can doe nothing of it selfe and therefore may be said to be nothing M. PERKINS third reason The Angels nay the flesh of the sonne of God hath not any quickning vertue from it selfe but all his vertue is from the God-head nowe if there be no effiâ—â—cy in the flesh of Christ but from the God-head howe shall bodily actions about bodily elements conferre grace immediately Answere This is too too simple for a base bodily thing may conuay grace immediately as an instrument of God when as the highest creature hath not power of it selfe to produce and conferre the same grace as principall agent as a meane subject by speciall commission and authority from the Prince may haue power of life and death which the greatest Peere in the realme hath not of his owne authority without some priuiledge from the Prince Rom. 4. His fourth reason Paul standeth much vpon this to proue that justification by faith is not conferred by the Sacraments and gathereth it because Abraham was first justified and afterward receiued circumcision the signe and seale of his righteousnesse Nowe the generall condition of all Sacraments is one and the same and that baptisme succeedeth circumcision Answere He mistaketh greatly S. Pauls discourse which is nothing lesse then that he saith but to proue that neither by the obseruation of Moyses lawe nor yet by the morall carriage of the Gentils men vvere to he saued but by faith in Christ and obedience vnto his Gospell Yea he is so farre off from denying justification to be conferred by the Sacraments that in the same epistle he teacheth vs to be justified by baptisme saying We are buryed together with Christ by baptisme into death Cap. 6. vers 4. that as he is risen againe from the dead c. so we may walke in newnesse of life Againe if Baptisme be but a signe and seale of righteousnesse how commeth the infant that cannot for lacke of discretion beleeue to that righteousnes whereof Baptisme is the seale Abraham in deede was justified before he vvas circumcised because he vvas aboue 70. yeares old before he heard of any circumcision but thence it followeth not that the infants circumcised at eight dayes old vvere justified before they vvere circumcised And so it may be that Cornelius the Italian Captayne was justified before he heard a word of the Sacrament of baptisme but that is nothing to proue or disproue the ordinary vvorking of the Sacraments for before the lawefull publication of any lawe no man is bound to obserue that lawe so that Abraham before he had heard of circumcision and Cornelius knowing nothing of Baptisme were not bound to them but had other meanes of justification according to Gods vvill and afterward receiued those Sacraments in obedience to God both in testimony of their former righteousnesse and to increase the same grace Hence it doth not followe but that the ordinary vvorking of both circumcision and baptisme in infants vvas and is to purge them from originall sinne and to powre the grace of justification into their soules But let vs admit al to be true which he saith yet this argument helpeth not the maine point which he is to proue to vvit that the Sacraments doe not produce grace into our soules for albeit they produced not the first justifying grace as the Sacrament of the Alrar and some others doe not yet they may truely produce and worke in vs an encrease of Gods grace and so be true physicall instrumentall causes of grace according as the Catholikes hold Consequently you may judge vvhat a pithy reason his fourth is vvhich may be answered foure manner of wayes His fift is the judgement of the Church Basil De spiritu sancto 15. If there be any grace in the water it is not from the nature of the water but from the presence of the spirit Could any man haue produced a vvitnesse to speake more formally against himselfe M PER. holdeth that there commeth no vertue from the water to sanctifie the soule S. Basil the fore-man of his quest auerreth that grace commeth from the water and is in the water marry that grace the water hath not of his owne nature but from the spirit of God there present In 14. Esaiae His second authour Hierome saith Man giueth water and God giueth the holy Ghost This is true but vvhether God giueth that grace by the ministery of the man and meanes of the Sacrament S. Hierome in that place saith neyther yea nor no and therefore his testimony helpeth not M. PER. cause But in his 83. Ad Oceanum Tract 80. in Iohan. Epistle he doth at large declare what efficacy baptisme and the water sanctified in Christ hath Augustine said Water toucheth the body and washeth the hart Answere His wordes are What great force and vertue is this of water
thereof Reply Why doth he then twice in this very question gather out of it first that Abraham was in heauen then that faith is not to be confirmed by apparitions of dead men vvhich are not the principall intent and scope of it but we must giue our newe Masters leaue both to affirme a thing when it seemeth to make for them and after to denie the same flatly when it beareth against them Lib. 2. in IouinianuÌ„ de cura pro mort cap. 14. lib. 4. dialog c. 29. We then say with S. Ambrose vpon that place vvith S. Hierome with S. Augustine and with S. Gregory the foure principall Doctors of the Latin Church that the story of Diues and Lazarus is a true hystoricall narration and not a parable of that which neuer was as by the proper names of Abraham and Lazarus and other circumstances they gather And vvhereas M. PER. objecteth against it That then it may be collected out of it that wicked men in hell haue compassion and loue to their bretheren on earth and zeale to Gods glory because Diues seemeth so to haue had I answere that there is no appearance of any zeale of Gods glory in Diues only he desired that some might goe out of that place of torment to aduertise his bretheren of it that they came not to him thither which was not out of any loue neither that he bare to his bretheren but for feare of his owne further torments if they came thither after him because he had giuen them euill example and encouragement to doe euill and perhaps euill counsell vvhen he liued vvith them and therefore was by their condemnation to receiue increase of his owne paynes so that his intreaty for them proceeded only out of the loue of himselfe and from the feare of more grieuous torments Nowe it being certayne that Abraham in heauen according to the Protestants opinion could heare Diues in hel much more easily can the Saints in heauen heare our prayers or any mans that dwelleth on earth Nowe after our doctrine who hold Abraham then to haue beene in Lymbo thus the argument must be framed If Abraham not yet indued with that perfect knowledge which the Saints in heauen haue could neuerthelesse heare Diues in hell betweene whome and himselfe there was magnum Chaos Ibid. 26. as the text hath a huge deepe darkenesse and great distance with much facility can the Saints who excell him being then in Lymbo in knowledge see and heare men liuing on the earth Our fift argument the Saints in heauen doe present vnto God the prayers of holy men liuing vpon the earth therefore they knowe the same prayers well in particular and embrace and recommend them to the diuine Majestie The consequent is manifest because no man can offer vp by word of mouth a petition if he knowe not what it is neither will any vvise-man such as the Saints be speake for he knoweth not whome nor what wherefore if the Saints doe present our prayers to God they doe knowe them in particular The antecedent is set downe in expresse tearmes in the word of God The 24. Seniours who sate about the throne of God fell before the Lambe hauing euery one harpes and golden vials ful of odours Apoc. 5. vers 8. which are the prayers of Saints M. PER. saith that these were their owne prayers and not other mens but vvithout alleadging either authority or reason We proue by the text it selfe that it must be vnderstoode of other mens prayers and not their owne because otherwise in due construction it should haue beene said Which are their owne praiers but the text saying That the odour of their vials were the prayers of Saints it distinguisheth plainely those Saints from themselues vvhich also the learned interpreters on that place Primasius and the Greeke schoole with Oecumenius doth confirme and testifie The former arguments were to proue that the Saints doe heare our prayers now the sixt reason shall be to meete with that out-cry of our aduersaries that forsooth vve robbe God of his honour and giue it to Saints when we pray vnto them thus God is more honoured by our worshipping and praying vnto Saints departed then if we did no worship vnto them nor prayed not vnto them at all but went immediately to God without their helpe therefore if it were for nothing else but for the greater honor of God we ought to worship Saints and to pray vnto them I proue the former proposition thus First we worship the Saints only for the supernaturall gifts vvhich God hath bestowed vpon them which must needes redound vnto the honour of the giuer as when I honour any of the kings officers it being principally because he is the kings officer the King himselfe is together and more principally honored and Christ saith expresly that hee that despiseth one of his seruants Luc. 10. vers 16. despiseth Christ himselfe Whence it followeth that he who respecteth and honoureth one of his seruants especially because he is his seruant doth together and in deed more principally honour Christ he and his graces being the very cause why vve respect and vvorshippe the other Further vvhen many and those of the vvorthyest sort doe become humble suitors vnto God for any one of vs much more honour is done vnto God through the dignity of their persons then if one meane silly sinner did sue to him alone For it is more honourable and magnificall to doe a pleasure at the instance and request of many vvorthy personages then where one poore worme alone doth sue for it yea and much more excellent thankes is rendred vnto God by the number and dignity of the suitors when their petition is graunted them This argument which is euident reason is grounded also vpon S. Pauls authority who requesteth the Christians of Corinth to helpe him in their prayers 2. Cor. 1. vers 11. That saith he by many mens persons thankes for the gift which is in vs may be giuen by many in our behalfe Seeing then that by our praying vnto the Saints they are drawne in to become suitors vvith vs and for vs and consequently obtayning their suite they stand aswell bound to render thankes to God therefore as we doe It followeth thereupon most euidently that God is by our praying to his Saints both more honored when such worthy persons sue vnto him for vs and also better thanked for that we doe obtaine by their intercession Now let vs close vp this question with the testimony of some of the moâ—â— ancient famous and best learned Doctors of both the Greeke and Latin Church Origen who liued not much aboue 200. yeares after Christ prayeth vnto that blessed paterne of patience Iob Lib. 2. in Iob. thus O happy Iob nowe liuing for euer with God and remayning a conquerour in the sight of our Lord and King pray for vs wreatches that the wonderfull mercy of God may also defend vs in all tribulations and deliuer
that it toucheth the body and cleanseth the hart can any thing be more cleare and forcible to ouerturne M. PERKINS position then to say that the water of baptisme washeth and purifieth mans hart this sentence scalded his lips wherefore he would gladly shake and shift it off by another place of the same Father Tract 6. in epist. Iohannis where S. Augustine teacheth That water sometimes signifieth the gifts of the holy Ghost Be it so what then doth it therefore signifie the holy Ghost in all places or in that where he saith That it toucheth the body and washeth the soule it cannot be for he speaketh of that water with which first the body is washed and that is not the holy Ghost but natural water But at least in the other place he doth not say out altogither as much as he did in the first True and who is he that treating often of one matter that is very copious and large but that sometime he handleth one point of it sometimes another here he discusseth one and the same thing more exactly there more sleightly as occasion serued wherefore it is no reason to say that in one place he said not so much of this matter therefore when he spake more particularly of iâ— in another you must expound him by that place where he spake lesse of it And thus much in answere vnto M. PERKINS reasons Nowe to some fewe arguments for the Catholike party He proposeth one for vs thus Remission of sinnes and saluation are ascribed to the Sacrament of baptisme * Act. 22. vers 17. Be baptised and wash away thy sinnes a Ephes 5. vers 26. Cleansing the Church by the lauer of water in the word of life b Tit. 3. vers 5. He hath saued vs by the lauer of regeneration c 2. Tim. 1. vers 6. The grace of God was giuen to Timothy by the imposition of handes Which phrase of cleansing and sauing by the lauer or bath of water importeth no lesse then that by water as a true physicall instrument that grace of God was convayed into the soules of the baptised which may be confirmed by many the like places as where it is said d Ioh. 3. vers 5. Vnlesse a man be borne a new of water and the holy Ghost where our regeneration and newe birth is ascribed vnto the working of water which were all very vnproper speeches if they diâ—import no more then that when water is applyed vnto vs then doth God immediately from himselfe and not by any meanes of the water sanctifie vs so that first we haue the Scripture for vs in his proper natiue signification M. PERKINS answereth That saluation is ascribed vnto the Sacraments as to the word of God that is as they are instruments to signifie seale and exhibite to the beleeuing minde the fore-said benefits but indeede the proper instrument whereby saluation is apprehended is faith And Sacraments are but props of faith furthering saluation two wayes First because by their signification they helpe to nourish and preserue faith Secondly because they seale grace and saluation to vs yea God giueth grace and saluation vnto vs when we vse them well so that we beleeue the word of promise made to the Sacrament whereof they are seales This his answere I haue put downe at large that the juditious reader may see howe many wordes he vseth to answere not one word to purpose for here is indeede an explication of their owne doctrine but not any reason why we should not take the wordes of holy Scripture before alleadged according vnto the proper manner of the phrase whereby they assigne water to be the reall meanes and true instrument of our saluation and thus much of our first argument The second shall directly confute his answere thus If Sacraments doe worke like vnto the word of God preached and only exhibite and feale vnto the beleeuing minde the benefits by them promised then he that cannot vnderstand such signes and promises and hath not vvit to conceiue and beleeue them can in no case receiue any such Sacrament well and worthily as if the word were preached neuer so perfectly vnto one of no capacity or vnderstanding it would worke nothing with him by reason of his want of vnderstanding but the Sacrament of baptisme and some others giuen vnto them who haue not sufficient wit and reason to vnderstand the meaning of it as for example vnto infants yet doe neuerthelesse worke their regeneration and saluation therefore it is most manifest and euident that the Sacraments of their owne proper force as the instruments of God doe worke our saluation vvithout the helpe of the receiuers faith This is confirmed by the testimony of those auncient Fathers who hold that one speciall cause why our Sauiour would be baptised was that by touching the water he might giue it vertue to purge and cleanse vs from sinne so witnesseth S. Ambrose Lib. 2. in Lucam 12. S. Gregory Nazianzene Oratione in sancta lumina Chrysostome Hom. 25. in Iohaâ—nem Venerable Bede in 3. Lucae Againe it is the common opinion of the auncient Doctors that the Sacraments are conduites to convay the merits of Christs passion into our soules yea are said to haue flowed out of Christes side opened on the Crâ—sse they therefore doubted not but that they had a spirituall vertue in them to cleanse and sanctifie our mindes But let vs heare some fewe of them in formall tearmes deliuering the same doctrine vvhich vve teach you haue heard already S. Basil and S. Augustine cited by M. PERKINS Gregory Nyssene speaking of Aarons rodde and such like thinges by which miracles were wrought saith * Orat. de Baptismo And all these thinges being without sence and life yet hauing receiued vertue from God were meanes of great miracles euen so water being nothing but water hauing receiued the heauenly blessing doth reâ—ewe a man vnto a spirituall regeneration And further That as seede is the cause of carnall generation so water that is blessed is the instrumentall cause of mans pâ—â—gation and illumination S. Chrysostome a Hom. 25 in Iohan. That which the wombe is to the infant that is water vâ—to the faithfull for in water we are formed and made S. Cyril of Alexandria b Lib. 2. in Iohan. cap. 42. Euen as water being heated with fire doth burne like fire it selfe euen so water wherewith the body is sprinckled in baptisme by the working of the holy Ghost is reformed and raysed vp to a diuine power and vertue Tertullian c Lib. de Baptismo Of old water gaue life that is water brought forth liuing creatures that it be not strange that water in baptisme knowe howe to giue life S. Ambrose d Lib. 2. de Poenitentia cap. 2. It seemed impossible that water should wash away sinne and Naaman the Syrian did not beleeue that his leprosie could be washed away with water but God hath made possible that which