a presence I semeth quoth my Lorde of Chichester that you haue not red Chrysostome for he poiÌ„teth it Of truth my lord quoth I hitherto I haue ben kepte well ynough withoute bokes howbeit this I remember of Chrisostome that he lyeth vppon the altar as the Seraphins do touch our lips with y e coules of the altar in heauen whiche is an Hiperbolicall locucion as you knowe Chrisostome floweth with them It is to euident quoth my lord of yorke that you are gon to farre but let vs come againe to y e churche out of the whiche you are excommunicated I am not quoth I my lord Although they whiche seme to be in the churche and of the churche haue excommuninicate me as the pore blind man was Ihon .9 I hope Christ receueth me you deceaue your selfe ê™ he and here muche was spoken of excommunicacion At the laste I said my Lorde I pray you beare with me that whiche I shall simplye speake before you Assuredly quoth I as I thinck you did well to departe from the Romishe churche so I thincke you haue done wickedly to couple vs to it againe for you can neuer proue it which you make the mother Churche to be christes churche Oh maister Bradford quoth my lorde of Chichester you were but a childe when this matter began I was a yonge man then coÌ„ming from the vniuersitie went with the woorlde but I tell you it was alwaies agaiÌ„st my stomack â–ª I was but a child then quoth I â–ª how be it as I told you I thincke you haue done euill for nowe we are come to the wicked maÌ„ which sitteth in the Temple of god â–ª that is in the churche for it cannot be vnderstaÌ„d of the Mahumet or any out of the churche but of suche as beare rule in the church â–ª See quoth my lord of yorke howe you builde your faith vpoÌ„ such places of scripture as are moste obscure to deceaue your selfe as thoughe you were in the church where you are not Well my lorde quoth I thoughe I might by your frutes iudge of you and others yet will not I vtterly condempne you for euer oute of the churche for perchaunce you sinne of ignoraunce â–ª if I were in your case I thincke not quoth I that I should not coÌ„deÌ„pne him vtterly y t is of my faith in the Sacrament knowinge as you know that at y e least .viii. C. yeres after Christs as my lord of Durisme writteth It was free to beleue or not to beleue transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ This is a toye quoth he that you haue found out of your owne brayne as thoughe a man not beleuing as the churche doth That is transubstantiacion were of the Churche he is an hereticke and so none of the churche quoth my lord of Chichester that dothe hold any doctrine againste the definition of the Churche as nowe you do hold against transubstanâ—â—atioÌ„ And he brought furth Ciprian whiche was no Hereticke thoughe he beleued rebaptizinge of them whiche were baptized of heretickes bicause he held it before the churche had defined it where as if he had holden it after then had he ben an hereticke Oh my lord quod I wil you condempne to the deuil any man that beleueth truely the .12 article of y e faith wherein I take the vnitie of Christes churche to consiste al thoughe in some pointes he beleue not the definitions of that whiche you cal the churche If I shall speake to you franckelye I doubte not but he y t holdeth syncerlye the articles of oure belefe thought in other thinges he dissent from your definitions yet he shalbe saued yea quod they both this is your doctrine No quoth I it is Paule whiche saith that if they hold the foundacion Christe thoughe they build vppon hym Hey strawe and stouble yet they shalbe saued Lord god quoth my lord of yorke howe you delite to leyne to so hard and darke places of scripture yea quoth my Lord of Chichester I will shewe you howe that Luther doth excommunicate zwinglius for this matter so red a place of Luther making for his purpose My lord quoth I what Luther writteth as you muche passe not of so do I in this case my faith is not build of Luther zwinglius or Ecolampadius in this point And in dede to tel you truelye I neuer red anye of their woorkes in this matter As for their persons what so euer theire sayinges were yet doo I thincke assuredly that they were and are gods children and sainctes with him Wel quoth my lord of yorke you are out of the coÌ„munion of y e church I am not quoth I. For it coÌ„sisteth is in faith Loo quoth he howe you make your churche inuisible that would haue the comunion of it to consiste in faithe yea and like your grace quoth I for to haue coÌ„munioÌ„ with y e churche neadeth not visiblenesse of it coÌ„munion consisteth as I said in faith and not in exforior ceremonies as appeareth both by Paule whiche woulde haue Vnam fidem by Ireneus to Victor for y e obseruacioÌ„ of Ester saing that Dissonantiam ieiunii should not Rumpere consonantiam fide That same place quoth my lord of chichester hath often euen wounded my coÌ„science because we disceuered our selfes froÌ„ the Sea of Rome Wel quoth I God forgeue you for I thincke you haue done euyll to bringe England thyther againe your honors know I am plain therfore I beseche you beare with me Here my Lord of yorke toke a boke of paper of common places out of his bosome and red a peice of Saint Augustine Contra Epistolam fundamenti howe that there were many thinges that did hold saint Augustine in the bosome of the church consent of people and natioÌ„s aucthoritie coÌ„firmed with miracles nourished with hope increased wyth charitie established with aÌ„tiquitie Besides this there holdethe me in the churche saith saint Augustine stil the successions of priestes from Peters seate vntil this present Bishoppe Last of all the verye name of Catholicke doctrine dothe holde me Loo quoth he howe saye you to this of Saint Augustine pointâ— me oute your churche thus My Lord quoth I this of saint Augustine maketh as muche for me as for you althoughe I might aunswere that al these if they had ben alledged to bee so firme as you make them they might haue ben alledged againste Christ and his Apostles for ther was the lawe and ceremonies consented in by the people confirmed with miracles antiquitie and continual succession of byshoppes froÌ„ Aarons tyme vntil that present In good faith quod my lord of Chichester maister Bradford you marke to muche the state of the churche before Christs comming Sir quod I therein I do but as Peter teacheth .2 Pet. 2. and Paule verye ofteÌ„ you would gladly haue your church heare verye glorious and as a most pleasante Ladie but as a moste pleasante ladye but as Christes saith Beatus est quicunque non fuerit offensus per me so maye his churche saye blessed
Bradford did stubbernly behaue himself the last time he was before them and therfore not for any other thynge now I demaund thee of ê™ he but of for thy doctrine religioÌ„ Mi lord ê™ Bradforde where you accuse me of hipocrisy vain glory I must wil leaue it to the lordes declaracioÌ„ which one daie wil open yours my trueth heartye dealinges In the meane season I wil conteÌ„t my self w t the testimony of mine own conscience Which if it yelded to hipocrisy could not but haue god my foe also and so both god and man were agaynst me As for my facte at Poules crosse and behauior before you at the Towre I doubt not but god wyll reuele it to my comfort For if euer I dydde any thynge which god vsed to publyke benefite I think that y t my dede was one and yet for it I haue beene am kept of loÌ„g time in prisoÌ„ And as for letters religion I answer ê™ Bradforde as I did the laste tyme I was beefore you There diddeste thou saye ê™ my Lorde Chauncellour that thou wouldst stubbernli manly maintein therronious doctrine in kiÌ„g Edwardz daies My lorde ê™ Bradforde I said the last time I was before you y t I had .6 times taken an othe y t I should neuer coÌ„sent to the practising of any Iurisdiccion on the bishop of Rome his behalfe and therefore durste not aunswere to any thynge shoulde be demaunded so least I should be forsworn whiche God forbid Howe bee it sauyng myne othe I said that I was more confirmed in the doctrine set forth publike in kiÌ„g Edwardes daies then euer I was before I was put in prisone and so I thought I should be think yet styll I shall bee founde more ready to geue my lyfe as god wil for the confirmacion of thesame I remember wel ê™ my lord ChaÌ„celour that thou madest muche a doe about a nedeles matter as though the othe against the B. of Rome wer so great a matter So others haue done before thee but yet not in suche sorte as thou hast done For thou pretendist a coÌ„science in it whiche is nothinge els but mere hipocrisie My conscieÌ„ce ê™ Bradforde is knowen to the Lorde and whether I deale here in hipocritally or no he knoweth As I saide therfore then my lord ê™ he so saye I againe nowe that for feare lest I should be periured I dare not make answere to any thyng you shal demaunde of me yf my aunsweryng should coÌ„sent to the practysing of any iurisdiccion for the B. of Rome here in England Why ê™ my lord Chancelour diddest thou not begin to tel that we ar Dii and sit in gods place and nowe wilte thou not make vs aunswere My lorde ê™ Bradforde I sayde you woulde haue your place takeÌ„ of vs now as goddes place and therefore I brought foorth that pece of scrypture y t ye mighte be the more admonished to folowe God and his wayes at this presente who seeth vs all and well perceyueth whether of conscience I pretende thys matter of the othe or no. No ê™ my my lord Chancelor al men may se thi hipocrisy for if for thine othes sake thou doest not aunswere theÌ„ wouldest thou not haue spokeÌ„ as thou didst haue aunswered me at the first But now meÌ„ may wel perceiue y t this is but a startynge hole to hide thy selfe in because thou darest not aunswere and so wouldest escape bliÌ„dyng the simple peoples eies as though of coÌ„science you did all you doe That whiche I spake at the firste ê™ Bradforde was not a replicacyon or an aunswere to y t you spake to me therfore I nede not to lay for me myne othe for I thought perchance you would haue more weyed what I did speak theÌ„ you did But wheÌ„ I perceued you did not considre it but came to aske matter whereto by answerynge I shoulde coÌ„seÌ„t to the practisinge of iurisdiccioÌ„ on the B. of Rome hys behalf here in Englande so bee forsworne theÌ„ of coÌ„science simplicitie I spake as I do yet again speak y t I dare not for conscience sake answere you and therfore I seke no startinge holes nor goe about to blind the people as God knoweth For if you of youre honor shal tel me y t you doe not aske me any thyng wherby my answering should consent to the practising to y e B. of Romes iurisdiccioÌ„ aske me wherin you wil and you shal here y t I will aunswere you as flatly as euer anye did y t came before you I am not afrayde of death I thanke god for I loke haue loked for nothiÌ„g els at your hands of long time But I am afraid wheÌ„ death coÌ„meth I should haue mater to trouble my coÌ„scieÌ„ce by the giltines of periury therefore doe aunswer as I do These be but gaye glorious woordes ê™ my lorde Chauncelour ful of hypocrisie and vaine glory And yet doest not thou knowe ê™ he speaking to Bradforde y t I sit here as B. of Winchester in mine own dioces and therefore maye doe this whiche I doe and more too My lord ê™ Bradforde geue me leaue to aske you this question that my conscience maie bee out of doubte in this matter Tel me here coram deo before god all this audyence beyng witnes that you demaund me nothing wherby my aunswering should consent to confirme the practise of iurisdiccion for the B. of Rome here in EnglaÌ„d and your honour shall heare me geue you as flat and as plain answers briefly to whatsoeuer you shal demaund me as euer any dyd Here the lorde Chauncellor was wonderfully offeÌ„ded and spake much howe that the B. of Romes aucthoritie nede no confirmacion of Bradfordes aunsweringe nor no suche as he was And turned hys talke to the people howe y t Bradforde followed craftye couetous marchauntes which because thei woulde lende no money to theyr neighbors wheÌ„ thei wer in nede would say that they had sworne ofte they would neuer lende anye more money because their credytours had so ofte deceiued theÌ„ EueÌ„ so thou ê™ he to Bradford dost at this present to caste a mist in y e peoples eyes to bleare them with an heresie which is greatter and more hurtful to the coÌ„mon welth pretende thine othe whereby the people mighte make a conscience where as they shoulde not Why speakest thou not quoth he My lord ê™ Bradford as I said I say agayne I dare not answere you for feare of periury from whiche God defende me Or els I could tell you y t there is a difference betwene othes Some be according to faith and charitie as y e othe against the B. of Rome Some be agaiÌ„st faith and charitie as this to denye my help to my brother in his nede Here again y e lord ChaÌ„cellor was much offeÌ„ded stil saying that Bradford durst not answere and further made muche a do to proue that y e othe to y e B. of Rome was against charitie But
Bradford answered that how so euer hrs honor toke him yet was he assured of his meaniÌ„g that no feare but y e feare of periury made him aferd to aunswere For as for death my lord ê™ he as I knowe ther ar .12 houres in the day so w t y e lord my time is appointed And wheÌ„ it shalbe his good tyme then shall I departe hence But in the meane season ê™ he I am safe ynough though al the worlde had sworne my death Into his haÌ„des I haue coÌ„mitted it his good will be done And ê™ Bradford sauiÌ„g mine oth I wil answer you in this behalf that the othe agaiÌ„st the. B of Rome was not nor is not against charitie Howe proue you y t ê™ my lord ChaÌ„celor Forsoth ê™ Bradford I proue it thus That is not against charitie whiche is not against gods worde but this othe against the bishop of Romes aucthoritie in Englande is not against gods worde therefore it is not against charitie Is it not against gods woorde ê™ my Lorde Chancellour that a man shoulde take a kyng to be supreme heade of the church in his realme No ê™ Bradford sauing styl mine othe it is not against gods worde but with it being taken in suche sence as it may be wel taken that is attributing to the kinges power y t soueraintie in all his dominions I praye you ê™ the lorde Chauncelour where finde you that I finde it in manye places ê™ Bradforde but specially in the .13 to the Romaines where Saint Paule writeth euery soule to be obedieÌ„t to the superiour power But what power que gladium gestat y e power verely which beareth the sweord which is not the spiritual but the temporall power As Chrisostome full well noteth ê™ Bradforde vpon the same place whiche youre honor knoweth better then I. He Chrisostome I meane ther plainly sheweth y t bishops prophetes and apostles owe obedience to y e temporall maiestrates Here yet more the Lorde Chancelour was stered and said howe that Bradforde went about to deny al obedience to the Queene for his oth so ê™ he this maÌ„ woulde make gods woord a warrant of disobedience For he will aunswere the Queene on this sorte that when she sayeth nowe sweare to the B. of Rome or obey his aucthoritye No wil he saie for I am then forsworne and so make the Queene no Queene No ê™ Bradforde I go not about to deny all obedieÌ„ce to the Queenes highnes by deniyng obedience in this part yf shee shoulde demaunde it For I was sworne to king Edward not simply that is not onely concernyng his owne person but also concerning his successours And therefore in denying to do the Quenes request herein I denye not her authoritie nor become dishobedient Yes that doest thou ê™ my Lorde Chancelor And so he beganne to tell a longe tale howe if a manne shoulde make an othe to pay a Cli. by such a day and the manne to whom it was due would forgeue the debt The debter woulde saie no you cannot do it for I am forsworne theÌ„ c. Here Bradford desired my lord Chauncellor not to trifle it saying y t he wondred hys honor would make solemne othes made to god trifles in that sorte And make so great a matter concerniÌ„g vowes as thei cal it made to the bishop for mariage of priestes At these wordes y e lord ChaÌ„celour was much offended said he did not trifle but ê™ he thou goest about to denie obedience to the Queene which now requireth obedience to the B. of Rome No my lord ê™ Bradford I dooe not denye obedience to the Queene yf you would discerne betwene genus and species Because I may not obey in this to reason ergo I maye not obey in the other is not firme As if a maÌ„ let one sel a pece of his inheritaÌ„ce yet this notw tstaÌ„dyng al his inheritaÌ„ce is not let or sold And so in this case all obedyence I denye not because I denie obedience in this branche I wil none of those similitudes said the lorde Chancellour I would not vse theÌ„ ê™ Bradforde if that you wente not about to perswade y e people I meane that which I neuer meÌ„t For I my self not onely meane obedience but wil geue ensample â–ª of all most humble obedience to y e Queenes highnes so long as she requireth not obedience agaynste god No no ê™ my lorde Chauncelour al men maie perceiue wel inough your meaning There is no man though he bee sworne to the king doth therfore break his othe yf afterwardes he be sworne to the Frenche king and to themperour It is true my Lorde ê™ Bradforde but the cases bee not like For here is an excepcioÌ„ thou shalt not sweare to y e. B. of Rome at any time If in like maner we were sworne thou shalt not serue themperour c. you see there were some alteracion and more doubt But ê™ Bradford I beseche your honour remembre what ye youre selfe haue written answeringe the obieccions here against in youre boke de vera obedientia Vincat modo domini verbi veritas Let Gods woorde and the reasons thereof beare the bell awaie Heare the lord Chauncelor was throughlye moued and saide styll howe that Bradforde had written sedicious letters and peruerted the people thereby and did stoutly stand as though he would defende the erronious doctrine in kynge Edwardes tyme against all men now ê™ he he saieth he dare not answer I haue written no sedicious letters ê™ Bradforde I haue not peruerted y e people But that which I haue writteÌ„ spokeÌ„ y t wil I neuer deny by gods grace And wher your L. saith I dare not answer you y t al meÌ„ may know I am not afraid sauiÌ„g mine oth ask me what you wyl I will plainelye make you answer by gods grace although I now see my lyfe lyeth theron But O lord ê™ he into thy hands I coÌ„mit it come what come will onelye sanctifie thy name in me as in one instrumente of thy grace Amen Now aske what you wil ê™ Bradford you shall se I am not afraid by gods grace flatly to answer Well then ê™ my lord Chauncelour how say you to the blessed sacrament do you not beleue there Christe to bee presente concernynge his naturall bodye My lorde ê™ Bradforde I doe beleue Christ to be corporally preseÌ„t in his sacrament duely vsed Corporally I say that is in such sorte as he woulde I meane Christe is there corporally preseÌ„t vnto faith Vnto faith ê™ my lorde Chaunceloure wee muste haue manye moe words to make it more plain you shal so ê™ Bradford but first geue me leaue to speake twoo wordes Speake on quoth my lord Chancellour I haue bene now a yeare and almoste thre quarters in prysone ê™ Bradforde and of all thys tyme you neuer questyoned wyth me heare aboutes when I myghte haue spoken my conscyence frankely wythout peryll But nowe you haue a law to haÌ„g vp and put to
caÌ„not tel how you wil stretche this woorde maintenaÌ„ce I will repete again y t which I spake I said I was more confirmed in the religion set foorth in king Edwardes dayes then euer I was if god so would I trust I should declare it by geuing my life for the confirmacion and testificacion therof So I saide then so I say again now ê™ Bradford As for otherwise to mainteine it then pertayneth to a priuate person by coÌ„fessioÌ„ I thought not nor thinke Well ê™ the lord Chancelor yesterday thou diddest mayntain false heresy coÌ„cernyng y e blessed sacrameÌ„t therfore we gaue y e respite til this day to deliberate My lord ê™ Bradford as I sayde at y e first I spake nothinge of the SacrameÌ„t but y t which you allowed therfore reê“ued it not nor gaue me no time to deliberate Why ê™ he diddest thou not denye Christs presence in the sacrameÌ„t No ê™ Bradford I neuer denyed nor taught but that to the fayth whole Christs body bloud was as presente as breade wyne to the dewe receyuer yea but doest thou not beleue that Christes bodye naturallye and reallye is vnder the forme of bread and wyne My Lord ê™ Bradforde I beleue Christ is preseÌ„t there to faith of y e dewe receyuer as for transubstanciacion I plainely and flatlye tell you I beleue it not Here was Bradford called a deuil or sclanderer for we axe no questioÌ„ ê™ y e lord Chancelor of transubstanciacion but of Christs bodily preseÌ„ce Why quoth Bradford I denye not hys preseÌ„ce to the faith of the receuer but denye that he is included in y e bred or that the bred is transubstanciated If he be not iÌ„cluded ê™ the B. of Worcester how is he then preseÌ„t Forsothe quoth Bradford my faith knoweth howe though my toÌ„g cannot expresse it nor you otherwise theÌ„ by faith heare it or vnderstand it Heare was much a doe now one Docter starting vp speking this another that the lord Chancelor talking muche of Luther zwiÌ„glius OecolaÌ„padiê° But stil Bradford kept theÌ„ at this point that Christ is preseÌ„t to faith and y t there is no transubstanciacion nor including of Christ in the bread but al this would not serue theÌ„ Therfore an other bishop asked this questioÌ„ whether y e wycked man receiued Christes verye bodie or no Bradford answered plainly no. Where the lord Chancelor made a long oracion howe y t it could not be y t Christe was present excepte that the euill man receiue hiÌ„ But Bradford put his oracion away in few woordes that grace was at y e present offred vnto his lordship although he receiued it not So y t ê™ he y t receyuing maketh not the presens as youre lordship would affirme but gods grace trueth power is y e cause of the presence the which the wicked y t lacketh faith cannot receue And here Bradforde prayed hym not to deuorce that whiche God hathe coupled together he hathe coupled al this together take eate this is my bodye he saieth not see pepe this is my bodye but take eate Here the lorde Chancelour the reste of the Bishoppes made a great a do that Bradforde hadde founde out a toy that no man els euer did of the condicions the lord Chancelor made many words to the people here aboute But Bradford said this My lord ê™ he are not these woordes take eate a coÌ„maundement and are not these woordes this is my bodye a promyse If you wil challenge the ê“mise do not y e coÌ„mandemeÌ„t may you not deceue your self Here the lord Chancelor denied Christe to haue coÌ„maÌ„ded any thiÌ„g in y e sacrameÌ„t or y e vse of it Why ê™ Bradford my lord I pray you tel the people what mode accipite manducate is it is plain to childreÌ„ that Christ in so saying coÌ„mandeth At these wordes the lorde Chauncellor made a great toying trifling at the imperatiue mode fel to proposing or examining as though he shuld teach a child so coÌ„cluded that it was no coÌ„mandement but such a phrase as this I praye you geue me drink which is no commandemeÌ„t I trow But Bradford prayd him to leaue toying trifling and said thus my lord ê™ he if it be not a commandemeÌ„t of Christ to take to eate the sacrameÌ„t why do any take vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to coÌ„maund make of necessity that which god leueth free as you do in making it a necessary commandemeÌ„t that once a yere for al that be of lawful discrecion to receiue the sacrameÌ„t Here the lord Chancelour calleth him againe Diabolus or slaunderer so began out of these woordes let a man proue himself so eate of the bread the bred ê™ Bradford and drink of the cup that was no coÌ„mandemeÌ„t for then ê™ he if it wer a coÌ„mandemeÌ„t it should bynde al men in al places at al tymes O my lord quoth Bradford discerne betwene coÌ„mandementes some be generall that thei binde alwaies in all places and all persones some be not so generall as this is of the supper The sacramente of Baptism of the appearing before the lord at IerusaleÌ„ AbrahaÌ„s offring Isaac Here the lord Chancelor said what say you that Baptisme is coÌ„manded theÌ„ quoth he we shal haue .xi. coÌ„mandementes In dede quoth Bradford I think you thinke as you speake for els you would not take the cup from the people seyng y t Christe sayeth drink of it al. But howe saye you my lord quoth Bradford Christe sayth to you bishops specially ite predicate euangelium goe preache the gospel fede Christes flocke is this a coÌ„mandement or not Here was the lord Chancelor in a great chafe said as pleased him Another I wene the B. of Durham asked him when Christ began to bee present in the sacrament whether before the receyuer receiued it or no Bradforde answered that the questioÌ„ was curious not necessary further said as the said cup was the new testameÌ„t so the bred was Christs body to him that receiueth it duely But yet so y e bred is bred for in al y e scripture ye shal not find this proposicioÌ„ non est panis ther is no bred so he brought forth s ChrisostoÌ„ Si in corpore essemus Summa much a do was here about thei calling Bradford heretike he desired them to procede a gods name he loked for y t whiche god appointed theÌ„ to do Loe ê™ the lord Chancelor this felowe is now in a nother heresy of fatal desteny as though all thynges wer so tyed together y t of mere necessitie al thinges must come to passe But Bradford praide him to take things as they were spoken not wreste them into a contrary sence your lordshippe quoth hee doth discerne betwixt god and manne things are not by fortune to god at any time thoughe to man they seme so some times I ê™ Bradforde spake but as the Apostles spake lord ê™ he see howe Herode
that I might be at libertie to conferre and as free as he with whome I should conferre then quoth I it were some thing but els I see not to what purpose coÌ„ference should be offered but to deferre y t whiche will come at the length and the lyngering may giue more offence then do good Hhowbeit quoth I if my Lord should make suche an offre of his owne â–ª voluntarines I will not refuse to conferre withe whome so euer shall come Maister doctor hearing this called me arrogant still proud and what so euer pleased hym so that I besought them both because I perceaued by them I should shortely be called for to gyue me leaue to talke with God to begge wisedome and grace of hym for quoth I otherwise I am helpelesse And so they with muche a doo departed And I went to god and made my pore praier acordingly which of his goodnes he did graciouslie accepte and did helpe me in my neade praysed therfore be his holyename Shortely after they were gone I was had to saint Marie oueris and there taried vncalled for till xi of the clocke that is till Maister Saunders was excommunicated Vpon the .3 of Februarie the Byshoppe of London came to the Counter in the pultrie to disgrad Maister Doctor Taylor about one of the clocke at after noone but before he spake to Maister Tailour I was called forth vnto him when he sawe me of went hys cappe out stretched he his haÌ„de and on this sort he spake to me that bycause he perceaued I was desyrous to conferre withe some lerned man therfore he had broughte maister Archedeacone Harpsfeld to me and quoth he I tell you you doo like a wise man but I praye you goe roundlye to worke for the tyme is but short my Lorde quoth I as roundelyl as I can I wyll go to woorke with you I neuer desired to conferre with anye man nor yet doo howbeit if you will haue anye to talke with me I am redy to heare and aunswere hym What quoth my Lord of London in a fume to the keper did not you tell me that this man desired conference No my Lorde quoth he I tolde you that he wold not refuse to coÌ„ferre with any but I did not shewe to anye that it was his desire well quoth my Lord of London maister Bradforde you are welbeloued I pray you consider your self and refuse not charitie when it is offered In dede my Lord quoth I this is finale charitte to condemne a man as you haue condempned me whiche neuer brake the lawes In Turckie a man may haue tought free but in England I cold not fynd it for I am condempned for my faith so sone as I vttered it at your requeste before I had coÌ„mitted any thing againste the lawes As for conference I am not afrayed quoth I to talke with whome you will but to saye that I desire to conferre that do I not Well well quoth my Lorde of London and so called for maister Taylor and I went my waye Vpon the 4. of Februarie came one of my lord ChauÌ„cellors gentlemen sent as he said froÌ„ my lord as then being come froÌ„ the court Thys was about .8 of the clocke the eueninge The effecte ende of his talke message was that my Lorde his maister did loue me well and therefore he offered me tyme to conferre if I woulde desire it but as I had aunswered others in this matter so I aunswered him that I wold neuer make that sute but quoth I to coÌ„ferre with any I will neuer refuse bycause I am certaine and able I thancke god to defend by godlye learning my faith Thus with much a doo we shoke hands and departed he to his maister and I to my pryson Vpon the 7. of Februarie came one maister Wollerton a Chapplaine to the Bishoppe of LoÌ„don to conferre with me Who when he perceaued that I desired not his comming beinge as one most certain of my doctrine And therfore wished rather his departing theÌ„ abiding well maister Bradford quoth he yet I pray you let vs conferre a litle perchance you may do me good if I can dooe you none Vpon whiche wordes I was content to talke He spake muche of the doctors and fathers of the bread in the .6 chapiter of Iohn And so wolde proue transubstaÌ„tiation howe that wicked meÌ„ do receiue Christs bodie And I on the contrarie parte improued his aucthours with much by talke betwixte vs bothe and the keper who toke his parte litle to y e purpose SuÌ„ma to this issue we came that he should draw out of the scriptures and doctours his reasoÌ„s And I wold peruse them and if I could not aunswere theÌ„ I would giue place And so I desired him to do my reasons which I woulde make and so departed for that daye The next day following in the morning he sent me halfe a shete of paper written on bothe sides with no resons how he gathered his doctrine but onlye the bare sentence Panis quem ego dabo The bread whiche I wil giue is my fleshe And the places in the 26. of Matth. 14. of Marke .22 of Luke the .10 and .11 to the Corinth with some sentences of the doctors all which made as much against him as with hym al only one of Theophilactê° except in the after nowne he came himself and then we had a longe bablynge to none effecte and at the lenght he came to the church and how that I shwarued froÌ„ the churche Na â–ª quoth I that doo I not but you do for y e church is Christs spouse and Christes obedient spouse as â–ª your church is not which robbeth the people of the Lordes Cuppe of seruice in the English tonge Why quoth he it is not profitable to haue the seruice in Englishe and so he brought forth this sentence to proue it Labia Sacerdotis custodiant legem The lipes of the priestes should kepe the law and out of his mouth meÌ„ must loke for knowledge Why quoth I should not the people theÌ„ haue the scriptures wherfore serueth this of Christe searche the scriptures This quoth he was not spoken to the people but to the Scribes learned men wel quoth I then the people must not haue the scriptures whiche he affirmed bringinge fourth this Eâ— erunt docti a deo They shalbe all taught of God But must we quoth I lerne all at the priestes yea quoth he well then said I I see you would bringe the people to hange vppe Christ and let Barrabas goo as the priestes theÌ„ did perswade the people A which wordes he was so offeÌ„ded that he had no luste to talke any more Summa I gaue hym the reasons I had gathered against transubstantiacion and prayed hym to frame his in the frame of reasons and I woulde aunswere them well quoth he I wil do so but first I wil answere yours The whiche thing he hath not done hitherto nor wil not for I
heare that he is ridden into the Country Vpon the .12 of Februarye there came one of the Erle of Darby his men called Stephen Beiche one of olde acquentaunce to me who showed me that my lord sent him to me and willed me to tender my selfe he would be good lord vnto me WheÌ„ I aunswered that I thancked his lordshipppe for his good will towardes me but quoth I in this case I cane not teÌ„der my selfe more then gods honour then he set before me my mother my sisters frends kyndsfolkes Country what a greate discomforte it wolde be vnto theÌ„ to dye as an Heretike well syr quoth I I haue learned to forsake father mother brother sisters frends and all that euer I haue mine owne selfe or els I can not be Christes disciple And so he tellinge me that my death would doo much hurte and such lyke talke we shoke handes Howbeit nowe I remember that in oure talke he asked me if my lord should obtaine for me that I might departe the Realme whether I would not be content to be at the Quenes appointmeÌ„t wher she woulde appointe me beyond the sea No quoth I. I had rather be burned in Englande then be burned beyoÌ„d y e sea For I know quoth I that if she should sende me to Paris to louen c. fourthe with they would burne me Vpon the .14 of Februarie their came to me Perciuall Cressewell one of my olde acquentaunce and one that loueth my bodie well and my soule also after his religion bringing with hym as I learne a kynsman of maister Feckenham who after much ado praied me y t he might make labour for me a gods name quod I doo you may do what you wil yea but quoth he Tell me what suet I should make Forsoth said I that y t you wil doo do it not at my requeste for I desire nothyng at your haÌ„des if the Queene wil giue me life I will thanke her iâ— she will banishe me I will thaÌ„cke her yf she will condempne me tâ— perpetuall prisonmente I wyâ— thancke her if she wil burne me I will thancke her Here vpoâ— he wente awaye And about a .xi. of the clocke He and the other man came agayne and brought a boke of Maister Mores makynge to rede ouer the whiche boke I toke But quoth I good Perceiuall I am to sure setteled for beinge moued in thes matters Oh quoth he if euer you loued me do one thinge for me â–ª what is that quoth I at the lenght for I woulde not promes sayth he to desire and name what lerned men or man you will haue to come vnto you my Lord of yorke my Lorde of Lyncolne my Lorde of Bathe my Lorde of of Chichester c. wil gladly come to you No quoth I neuer wil I desire theÌ„ or any others to come to conferre with me for I am as certein of my doctrine as I am of anye thing But for your pleasure quoth I and that all men maye knowe I am not ashamed to haue my faith sifted and tried bringe whome you will I will talke with them So they went theyr waye And about .3 of the clocke in the after nowne coÌ„meth maister doctor Hardinge the Byshoppe of Lincolnes Chaplaine and after a greate and solempne protestation when he knew I desired not his comming how that he had prayed to God before he came forth to turne his talke to to my good he began to tell of the good opinion he had of me and many God giue you good euen so that our talke was to none effecte or purpose saue y t I prayed hym to consider from whence he was fallen and not to followe the world or loue it bycause the loue of God is not where it is SuÌ„ma he counted me in a dampnable state as one being out of the churche And therfore wylled me to take hede to myselfe not to dye in suche an opinion what maister Hardinge quoth I I haue heard you with these eares maintayne this that I stode in I haue quoth he preached that the doctrine of transubstantiation was a subtill doctrine but otherwise I neuer taught it And so enuyinge against marieges of priestes and muche againste Peter Marter Martyn Bucer Luther which for breakinge their vowes were iustly giueÌ„ vp into heresies quod he I seing hym all togyther giueÌ„ vp into poperie after admonishement hereof bad hym farewell Vppon the .15 of Februarie about .4 of the clocke in the after nowne cometh Percyuall Cressewell and the other man waytyng vpon maister Harpsfeld â–ª Archedeacon of LondoÌ„ who after geÌ„tle salutation and many formalities beganne a longe oracion Howe that all men euen the Infideles Turckes Iewes Anabaptistes and Libertines desire felicitie as well as the christians And howe that euerye man thyncketh they shal attaine to it by their religioÌ„ To the whiche longe oracion I aunswerred briefly that he spake not farre a mise Then goeth he on yea but the waye quoth he thither is not all a like And so he set furth how infideles by Iupiter Iuno The Mahumet by his Alcoran the Iewe by his Thalmud beleued to come to Heauen For so manye I spake sayth he as beleue the immortalitie of the soule And this long oracion I as brieflie aunswered and saide he had spoken truelye Well then quoth he here is the matter â–ª the waye to this heauen we maye not inuente anye newe waye Their is but one waye quoth I and that is Iesus Christe as he hymselfe doth witnesse I am the waye here Maister Harpsfeld affirmed and denyed and further sayde that I ment by Christe beleuing in Christe I haue lerned quoth I to discerne betwixte Faythe and Chryste Albeit I confesse that who so euer beleuethe in Christe the same shalbe saued No quoth he not all that beleue in Christ for some wyll saye lord Lorde haue not we caste oute deuilles c But Christe will say in the daye of iudgement to those departe froÌ„ me I knowe you not yea syr quoth I you muste make a difference betwixte beleuing saying I beleue as for example if one should say and swere he loued you for all his saying you wil not beleue him when you see he goeth aboute to vtter and doo all euyll thinges againste you wel quoth he this is not muche materiall Theire is but one waye Christe How come we to know him where shal we seke to finde him Forsoth quoth I we must seke hym by his word and in his word after his word Verye good quoth maister Harpsfeld But tell me now howe first we come into the companie of them that could tell vs this but by Baptisme True quoth I baptisme is the sacrament by the whiche exteriorlye we are insert and engrafâ—e into Christe for I dare not quoth I exclude oute of Christe al that dye without baptisme I wil not tye God where he is not bound Some infants dye whose parents desire baptisme for them and maye not
yeres and called them by there right name hell houndes rather then heauen houndes On this sorte syr quoth I. will I proue my faith that you can neuer doo yours yea syr quoth he If we dyd knowe you had the holy goste then could we beleue you Here might haue ben aunswered that Stephens enemies would not beleue he had the holy gost and therefore they dyd as they did But in speakinge he rose vp and the keper called and others that stode bye to take his parte all againste me Howe be it gentlie without anye tawntynge or rayling onelye prayinge me to take hede to that maister Harpsfeld speake who still said I was oute of the churche and did contempne it spitt against it and I cannot tel what But I still affirmed that I was moste certeine I was in Christes churche could shewe a demonstracion of my religion from tyme to tyme continually And so we made an ende sainge that in the mornynge he would come again vnto me God our father for the name and blod of his Christ be merciful vnto vs and vnto all his people and kepe them frō al false teachers blind guides whereby alas I feare me muche hurte wil come to this realme of England God our father blesse vs and kepe vs in his truth pore church foreuer Amē Vppon the .16 of Februarye in the morning about .9 of y e clocke there came again the said maister Harpsfeld and the other two with him Nowe after a fewe wordes spoken we sate downe maister Harpsfeld beginning a very long oraciō almost ther quarters of an houre lōg First repeting what how far we haue gone astraye beginnynge to proue vpwardes succession of Byshoppes here in Englād for .8 c. yeres in Fraūce at Liōs for xii.c yeres in spaine at Hispalen for viii.c yeres in Italie at Millen for .xii. c. yeres goinge by that to proue his churche whereto he vsed also successiō of byshopes in the Est church for the more confirmacion of hys wordes and so concluded with an exhortation an interrogation The exhortacion that I woulde obey this church the interrogacion whether I could shewe anye such succession for the demonstraon of my church for so he called it whiche I followed Vnto this his long oracion I made a sherte aunswered howe that my memorie was euill for to aunswere particularlye his long oracion therfore I woulde generallye doo it thinckinge that bycause his oracion was rather to perswade then to proue that a general aunswere would serue So I told him that if Christe or his Apostles beinge here on yearth hath him demaūded of the Prelats of the churche then then to haue made a demonstracion of the churche by succession of highe priestes whiche had approued the doctrine he taught I thincke quoth I that Christe hert would haue done as I doo That is haue brought furth that which vpholdeth the church euē the veritie of the worde of God taught beleued not of the high priestes which of longe time had persecuted it but by y e Prophetes other good simple men whiche perchaunce were counted for heretickes with the churche that is with them that were ordeyned highe priestes in the churche to whome the true churche was not then tyed by any successiō but the word of god And thus to thincke quoth I Saint Peter gyueth an occasion when he saith That as it went in y e church before christes comminge so shall it goo in the Churche after his commynge but then the pillars of the Churche were persecutours of it Therefore the like we muste loke for nowe Why quoth be I can gether and proue you succession in Ierusalem of the high priestes From Aarons time I graunte quoth he but not suche succession as allowed y e trueth Why quoth he did they not all allow Moyses lawe yes quoth I. And kept it for the bokes therof as you do the Bible and holy scripture but the interpretacion and meaning of it ▪ they did corrupte as I take it you haue done And therfore the persecutions they stirred vp against the Prophetes Christe was not for the lawe but for the interpretacion of it as you saie nowe that we must haue the interpretaciō of the scriptures at your hādes but to make an ende quoth I death I do loke daily for yea hourely I thīke my time be but very short Therfore I had neade to spend in praier as much tyme with god as I can whileste I haue it for his helpe and comforte And therfore I praye you beare with me that I do not more plainlye and in more woordes aunswere you longe talke If I sawe death not so nere me as it is I woulde then weye euery peice of your oracion if you would giue me the some of them I would aunswere them accordinglie I hope But bicause I dare not nor I wil not leaue of lokinge and prouidinge for that whiche is at hande I shall desire you to holde me excused because I doo as I do And I hartelye thancke you for youre gentle good will I shall hartelye praye GOD oure father to giue you the same lyght and lyfe as I wishe to my selfe And so I beganne as to rise vppe But then maister Harpsfeld beganne to tell me that I was in a verye perillous case and he was sorie to see me so setteled Telling further that in dede he could tell me nothinge whether death were fare of or nere But that forceth not quoth he so that you did dye well Well quoth I yes For I doubte not in this case but to dye wel For as I hope and am cercertain my deathe shall please the Lord so I trust I shall dye cherfullye to the comforte of his chyldren yea but what if you be deceaued quoth he what quoth I if you dyd saye the Sone did not shyne nowe Then it did shine thoroughe the wyndowe where wee satt wel quoth he I am sorrie to see you so secure and carelesse In dede quoth I I am more carelese secure carnallie then I shoulde be God make me more vigilant But in this case quoth I I can not be to secure for I am most assured I am in the truth That are ye not quoth he for you are not of the Catholike church No quoth I thoughe you haue excommunicate me yet am I in the Catholike church of Christe and wil be a child of it and an obediedt child for euer I hope Christe will haue no lesse care for me then he had for the blynd man excommunicate of the Sinagoge And quoth I further I am certain that the necessarie articles of y e faith I meane the .xii. articles of the Crede I confesse beleue with that which you call the holy church So that euē your church hath taken some thing to muche vpon her to excōmunicate me for that whiche by the testimonie of my Lord of Durisme in his boke of the sacramēt latelye put
how I was certain of saluacioÌ„ of my religion Marie quod I amittinge all formalities saue y t I thaÌ„cked theÌ„ for their good wil by the word of god by the scriptures I am certein of saluacion and of my religion Verye wel said quod my Lord of yorke But howe doo you knowe the worde of God and the scriptures but by the church In dede my Lorde quoth I the churche was and is a meane to bring a maÌ„ more spedely to know the scriptures and the woorde of God as was the woman of Samaria was a meane y t the Samaritains knew Christ but as when they had herd hym speake they said now we know y t he is Christ not bycause of the woordes but bycause we our selfes haue heard hym so quoth I after we come to the hearing and reading of the scriptures showed to vs and discerned by the church we doo beleue them and know them not by cause the church saith they are the scriptures but bicause they be so beinge therof assured by the same spirite whiche wrote and spake them â–ª yea quoth my lord of yorke but you know in the Apostles time at the firste the word was not written True quoth I if you meane it for some bokes of the bokes of the newe TestameÌ„t but els for the olde testament Peter telleth vs that we haue Firmiorem sermonem Propheticum a more sure worde of prophecie Not quod I that it is simplie so but in respecte of the Apostles persons whiche beinge a liue and compassed with infirmitie attributed to the worde written more firmitie as wherewith no faulte coulde be founde whereas for the infyrmitye of their ê‘sons men perchauÌ„ce might haue founde some faulte at there perchiÌ„ng Albeit in verie dede no lesse obedience faith ought to haue ben giuen to the one then to the other as being all of one spirite of truth That place of Peter quoth my Lorde of yorke is not so to be vnderstande of the worde of God written yes sir quoth I that it is and of none other yea in dede quoth my lord of Chichester maister Bradford doth tel you y e truth in that pointe Well quoth my Lorde of yorke you knowe that Ireneus and others do magnify much the churche and alledge the Churche againste heretickes and not the scriptures True quoth I for they had to do with suche heretickes as dyd denye the scriptures and yet dyd magnifie the Apostles that they were inforsed to vse those churches wherin the Apostles had taught and that churche stil had receiued the same doctrine you speake the verie truethe quoth my Lorde of Chichester for the heretickes did refuse all scriptures excepte it were a peice of Lukes gospell Then quoth I the alledginge of the churche can not be primarlye or principallye vsed againste me whiche am so farre from denyinge of the scriptures that I appele vnto them vtterlye as to the onelye iudge Io .xii. A pretye matter quoth my Lorde of yorke that you will take vppon you to iudge the Churche I praye you where was your â—hurche this manye yeres for the Churche of Chryste is Catholicke and visible Hytherto my Lorde quoth I I doo not iudge the churche when I discerne it from that congregacion those whiche be not in it And I neuer denied the church to be Catholike and visible althoughe at some times it is more visible theÌ„ at som I praye you quoth my Lorde of Chichester tel me where the churche which alowed your doctrine was this .iiii. C. yeres â–ª I will tel you my Lorde quoth I or rather you shall tell it you selfe If you will tell me where the church was in Helias time when Helias said that he was lefte alone That is no aunswere quoth my Lorde of Chichester I am more sorye you saye so quoth I But this will I tell you lordshipp that the same eies wherewith a maÌ„ might haue espied the church theÌ„ yf you nowe had them you would not saye it were no answere The fault why the churche is not sene of you is not bycause the churche is not visible but bicause your eyes are not clere ynoughe to se it you are much deceiued quoth he to make such a collation betwine the churche then now Verie well speks my Lord quoth the Byshoppe of yorke for Christes saith Edificabo ecclesiam meam I wyll buylde my churche and not I do or haue buyld it but I will build it My lord quoth I Peter taught me to make this collacion saying as in the people there was false Prophetes whiche were muche in estimaâ—ion afore Christes comming so shall there be false teachers nowe and verye manye shall followe them And as for your futurtence I hope your grace quod I wil not exclude thereby Christs church not to haue ben before â–ª but rather that there is no buyldinge in the Churche but by Christes woorke onelye For Paule and Apollo be but waterers In good faith maister Bradford quoth my my lord of Chichester I am sorye to see you so litle to mind the churche He taketh vpon him as they al doo to iudge the church quod my Lorde of yorke A man shall neuer come to certentie that doth as they doo My Lorde quoth I take me beseche you in good part I speake simplie what I thincke and I desire reason to aunswere my obiections your affections sorowes can not by rules If that you consider the ende and cause of my condempnacion I can not thincke but that it shoulde soâ— thinge moue your honours you knowe it well ynoughe for you herd it no matter was layed againste me but what was gathered vppon myne one confession Bycause I denyed transubstantiacion and the wycked to receaue Christes body in the Sacramente therfore I was condempned and excommunicate but not of the Church although the pillers of the same as they be taken dyd it No quoth my Lorde of Chichester I herd say that the cause of youre prisonemente was for that you exhorced the people to take the sword in the one hande and the matocke in the other I neuer ment any suche thynge nor speake any thynge in that sorte my lord quoth I. yea quoth my Lorde of Yorke you behaued your selfe before the Counsell so stoutlye at the first that you woulde defend the Religion then and therefore worthelye were you punished your grace quoth I did here me aunswere my Lorde Chauncellor in that pointe But put the case I had ben so stote as they and your grace make it was not the lawes of y e realme on me side then wherfore vniustlie I was punished Onely transubstantiacion which was had on myne owne confession was the thing on which my lorde Chauncellor proceded you denye the presence quoth my lord of yorke I do not quoth I to the faith of the worthy receauer Why quoth he what is that theÌ„ to saye that Christe lyeth not of the alter No my lorde quoth I in dede I beleue not suche
are they that are not offended at me yea quoth I my lord you thinck none is of the church but such as suffer persecutioÌ„ what I thincke quod I god knoweth I pray your grace iudge me by anye wordes and speaking and marke what Paule saythe Omnes qui volunt all that wil liue godly in christ Iesu must suffer persecutions Sometime Christ church hath reste here but commonlye quoth I it is not so And specially towardes the end her forme wil be more vnsemlye But what saye you to sainct Augustin quoth he where is youre Churche that hath the consent of people nations Mary quod I al people natioÌ„s y t be gods people haue coÌ„sented with me I w t them in the doctrine of faith Loo quoth he howe you goo about to shifte of all thinges No my lord quoth I I meane simplye and so speake god knoweth S. AugustiÌ„ quoth he dooth here talke of successioÌ„ euen froÌ„ Peters sea yea like your grace ê™ I that sea theÌ„ was nothiÌ„g so much corrupt as it is now Wel quod he you alwaies iudge y e church No my lord quod I. As christs shep discerne christs voice but they iudged not it so they discerne the churche but not iudge her yes that you do sath heâ— No like your grace quoth I ful wel may a maÌ„ doubte of y e Romish church for she obaeth not Christs voice as christs true church doth wherin quod he iÌ„ lateÌ„ seruis ê™ I robbeth the Laytye of Christes cuppe in the Sacramentes Why quoth my lord of Chichester Latten seruice was in England when the Pope was gon True quoth I tyme was when the Pope was awaye but not all Poperie as in Kyng Henrys dayes Latten seruice quoth my lord of yorke was appointed to be songe had in y e Queare where only were Clerici that is such as vnderstaÌ„d laten y e people sitting in y e bodie of y e churche prayinge their owne priuat prayers and this quoth he maye well be yet sene by making of the Chaunsell and Quere so as the people could not come in or heare them yea qut my lorde quoth I both in Chrisostomes tyme and also in the laten churche in sainct Ieromes tyme as he writteth in the preface I trowe to the Galathians al the church saith Amen Aunswering againe mightely Amen whereby we maye see that y e prayers were made that both the people herd them and vnderstod them you are to blame quoth my Lorde of Chichester to saye that the churche robbeth the people of the Cup. Well my lord quod I turne it as please you all men knowe that the Laitye hath none of it In dede ê™ I I would wishe the churche would defyne againe that they might haue it for my ê‘t if god make free quoth I who caÌ„ define to make bound generallie Well quoth my lord of yorke maister Bradford we lese but labour for you seke to put awaye al thiÌ„gs y t be told you to your good your churche no man can knowe yes that you maye well quoth I. I pray you whereby said he forsoth Chrisostome shoeth it Tantummodo per scripturas onely by the scriptures and thus speaketh he verye often times togyther as you well knowe quod I â–ª In ded quod he that is of Chrisostome In opere imperfecto whiche maye be doubted of the thinge whereby the church may be knowen beste is successioÌ„ of Byshoppes No my lord quod I Lyra ful well writteth vppon Matthew that Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ratione Potestatis secularis aut ecclesiastice Sedin hominibus in quibus est notiâ—ia Vera et confessio Fidei et veritatis And in Hilarius time you know he writteth to Auxcentius that the Churche dyd rather Delitescere in cauernis them Eminere in primariis sedibus Here commeth one of their seruauntes and tolde them that my lorde of Durisme taried for them at Maister yorkes house for inded it was paste .12 of the clocke vppon a .4 howres they taryed with me And after that there maÌ„ was come they put vp there written bokes of common places and saide they lamented my case and so wishing me to red ouer a boke whiche dyd doctor Crome good as my Lorde of Chichester sayde and wyshyng me good in words they wente there wayes and I to my prison Vppon mondaye whiche was the .22 of Februarie about .8 of y e clock in y e morning which was an howre soner then was appointed There came to the CouÌ„ter where I was in prison to Spannishe friers Alphonsus and the kings Confeffor as they said and with them twoo priestes whiche were Englishe men as I wene when the howse was voyded of other companye I was called donne beinge come before them a stoole was pouled out and I bidden sit doune whiche thinge I did after a signe of ciuilitie geuen to them Nowe thus sitting beginneth the Confessor to speake in latten and aske me in latten for al our talke was in latten whether I had not sene nor herd of one Alphonsus y t had writen against heresies And I aunswered that I did not know him well quoth he this man pointing to Alphonsê° is he Verye good quoth I. After this he beginneth to tell me howe that of loue and charitie by the meanes of the Erle of Darbye they come to me bycause I desired to conferre with them And I answered that I neuer desired there coÌ„ming nor to conferre with them or any other but quoth I seing you are come of charitie as you saye I cannot but thanckfully acknowledge it and as for conference though I desire it not yet quoth I I wyl not refuse to talke with you if you will Than began Alphonsus to tel me that it were requisite I did pray vnto god that I mighte followe the direction of gods spirite and as he should enspire me not being addicte to min owne selfe will and with where vpoÌ„ I made a prayer besaught god to directe al our wille words and workes as the willes words and workes of his children for euer yea quoth Alphonsus you muste praye with your herte For if you speake but with tong onely God will not giue you his grace Sir quoth I. doo not iudge leste you be iudged you haue hearde my wordes now charitie would haue you to leaue the iudgement of the hart to god you must quoth Alphonsus be as it were a newter not wedded to your sentence But as one standinge in doubte praye and beleue be redye to receaue what god shall inspire for quoth he in vaine laboureth our tong to speake els Sir quoth I my sentence if you meane it for Religion must not be in a doubting or vncertein as I thaÌ„cke god it is not euen for that where in I am condeÌ„pned I haue no cause to doubt but rather to be most certein of it therfor I pray god to confirme me more in it for it is his truthe And therfore
out saint Augustin how Iudas receaued Panem domini and not Panem dominum how that he must be in corpori Christi that must receaue Corpus christi which he went about to put awaye with idem and not ad idem out of saint Ierome and howe that in cotpore Christi was too bee vnderstande of al that be in the visible church althoughe they be not in the inuisible churche with God whiche I denied to be Sainte Augustines meanynge and saide also that saint Ieromes allegations could not make for that purpose Again we had talke of transubstantiacion He bringeth furth Ciprian Panis quem dedit Dominus natura mutatus And I expounded Natura not for the substaunce As quod I the nature of an herbe is not the substaunce of it so the breade chaunged in nature is not to be taken for chaunged in substaunce for nowe it is ordeyned not for the food of the bodie simplye but rather for the food of the soule And here I broughte fourth Gelasius whome he saide was a Pope yea marye quod I. But his fayth is my faith quod I for the Sacrament if you wold receaue it From this talke we wente to talke wether Accidentia were Res or no. If they be properlie Res quod I then be they substaunce and if they be substaunce in that we muste haue Tetrestrem rem and eayrthlye substaunce in the Sacrament as Ireneus saithe then muste we not denye bread quod I. But he saide that colour was the earthelye thynge and called it an accidentall substaunce And so here aboutes wee hadde muche babling to none effecte I omitte the talke we had of my Lorde of Caunterbury of Peter Martirs boke of his letter laied to my charge When he was condempned of y e church whether Dic ecclesie et ce ▪ was of the vniuersall churche or of a particular churche which at the lenght he graunted of vayne glorye whiche he willed me to be ware of at his comming furth of the Countre and suche like talke A litle before his departinge I sayde this Maister doctor quod I as I saide to Maister weston the laste daye so saye I vnto you againe that I am the same man in religion againste transubstantiacion still which I was when I came into prisō for quod I hitherto I haue seen nothynge in anye pointe to infirme me At whiche wordes he was som thing moued said that that was not Catholicke ▪ yes quod I and I truste so to proue it euen by the testimonie of the catholicke fathers vntill Concilium Lateranense and there abouts The keper maister Clayden desired hym to tarrie diner whiche thing he denyed bycause had els wheare promised And so wente his waye sayinge that he woulde came after to me god one father be with vs al and giue vs the spirite of his truth for euer Amen In the after nowne about .5 of the clocke cometh maister westō whiche sente worde to the keper that he would haue ben with me ▪ by .2 of the clocke Nowe when I was come down out of my prison chamber vnto him he very gentlye saluted me desired the companye euerie man to departe and so sat donne and I besides hym And after that he had thancked me for my writtinge vnto hym he pulled out of his bosome the same writing which I had sent hym The copie whereof in Englishe for I did writte it in Laten shal immediatly follow this communicacion And before he began to read it he showed me that he asked of my conuersacion at Cambridge sithen his being wyth me quod he maister Bradford bycause you ar a mā not giuē to the glorie of this world I wil speake it before your face your life I haue lerned was such there alwaies as al mē euen y ◠greatest enemies you haue can not but praise you it And therfore I loue you quod he muche better then euer I did Nowe quod he I will reade ouer your argumēts so we wyll conferrthē Such they ar that a man may well perceaue you stande of conscience therfore I am glad and the more redye to pitie you So he began to rede the first and there beganne to tell howe that thoughe the worde transubstantiacion began but lately yet the thinge quod he was hath bene sithen Christes institucion And I told him that I did not contend or hange vppon the worde onlye but vpō the thing which quod I is as newe as the worde Then went he to the second and there broughte oute sainte Augustine howe that if an euil man goinge to the deuyll did make his will his sonne and heyre would not saye hys father dyd lye in it or speake tropically Much more Christe quod he goinge to god did neuer lye nor vse any figuratiue speach in his laste wil and testament Do you not remember this place of saint Augustin quod he yes syr quod I. But I remēber not that saint Augustine hath those wordes tropice or fyguratiue that is figuratiuelye spoken as you reherse For a man maye speake a thinge figuratiuely and lye not as Christe did in his last supper After this he wente to the third and broughte furtho Ciprian howe that the nature of the bread is turned into fleshe Here faith he that my Lord of Caunter burie expoundeth nature for qualitie by Gelasius the whiche interpretacion serueth for the aunswere of your third argumēt that Christe called breade his bodye that is the qualitie forme and apparaunce of bread And further quod he the scripture is wonte to call thinges as they auerr by the same names As Symon the Leper not whiche was so presentlye but bicause he had ben so Syr quod I Cipriā wrote before Gelasius therfore Ciprian must not expound Gelastus but Gelasius Ciprian and so they both teache that bread remaineth stil As for thinges hauinge still the names they had maketh nothinge to aunswere this except you could shew that this nowe were no bread◠as easelye a mā might haue knowen and seen then Simon to haue ben healed and cleane from hys Leprosey After this he wente to the foerth of the Cuppe the which he din not fully red but digressed into a longe talke of Ciprians Epistles De aquarus Also of Saint Augustine expoundinge the breakinge of bread by Christe to his 2. Disciples goinge to Emause to be of the Sacramente with such other talke to no certein purpose and therfore I prayed him that in as muche as I had written to hym the reasons that stablishe my faith against transubstantiacion so he woulde doo the lyke to me that is aunswere myne by writinge and shew me moo reasons in writinge to confirme trāsubstantiaciō which he promised me to doo and said that he would sende or briynge it to me agayne with in three dayes And so when he hadde ouerlye reade my argumentes and heare and there speake litle to the purpose for auoidynge of them and therfore I eftsones prayed him to giue me in