the propitiatory sacrifice wheras more then 8. or 9. score might haue byn cyted to that effect And finally though Latymer muttered out two or three particular aunswers heere and there sayinge that S. Chrysostome had Emphaticall locutions and the like yet his last rest was sett vpon this that the Doctors might be deceaued in some points though not in all things Wherof Fox well allowinge maketh this scoffinge comment in the margent Doctores legendi sunt cum venia the Doctors are to be read with pardon which can haue no other sense but that eyther we must pardon them when they speake not truth or we must aske pardon of them not to beleeue them when we mislike them for other sense I cannot make of this comentary 27. Doctor Cole replyed is it not a shame for an old man to lye yow say yow are of the old Fathers faith Latymer I am of their faith vvhen they say well I referre my selfe to my Lord of Caterburyes booke wholy herin Doctor Smith Then yow are not of S. Chrysostomes faith nor S. Augustines faith Latymer I haue said vvhen they say vvell and bring scriptures for them I am of their faith and further Augustine requireth not to be beleeued c. Weston Forty yeares gone vvhether could yow haue gone to haue found your doctrine Latym The more cause we haue to thanke God now that hath sent the light into the vvorld Weston The light ney light and lewd preachers c. remember vvhat they haue bin that haue bin the beginners of your doctrine none but a few flyinge Apostataes runninge out of Germany c. remember vvhat they haue bin that haue sett forth the same in this realme a sort of flyinge braines and light heads which vvere neuer constant in any one thinge vvhich vvas well seene in the often alteringe of their communion-booke and turninge their table one day vvest and another day east they gott them a tankerd and one saith I drinke and am thankefull the more ioy of thee saith another c. Yow neuer agreed vvith the â—igurynes of Germanie or vvith your selues your stubburnesse is of vaine glory and vve all see by your owne confession how little cause yow haue to be stubburne your learninge is in feoffers hold the Queenes grace is mercifull if yow vvill returne Latymer Yow shall haue no hope in me to returne And thus ended that disputation 74. And heere Iohn Fox is very angry with Doctor VVeston for this speach and for reuenge therof maketh this note in the margent Blasphemous lyes of Doctor VVeston sittinge in the chaire of pestilence and then presently he maketh the narration of him which before we haue related about Vrge hoc vrge hoc and in the margent he hath this other Notandum vrge hoc quod VVeston vvith his beere-pott in his hand which notwithstandinge is more modest then yf yt had byn a wyne-pott And I maruayle much why the wisdome of Fox should obiect this beer-pott so often eagerly against Doctor VVeston seeing his owne great chaire which is yet kept for a relique of his holines in London by the sisters hath two places made on both sides therof the one for the Candlesticke the other for the ale-pott and nutmegges which Father Fox is said to haue loued well and so do his wrytings also shew yet no Catholike man I thinke hath euer obiected the same vnto him before this as he doth the beer-pott to Doctor VVeston But these are trifles Lett vs passe to more serious considerations The Conclusion with some Considerations theron §. 5. 75. By the re-view then of these three dayes disputations a coniecture may be made how matters did passe then and how they stand at this day betwixt vs and Protestants in these articles of controuersie Yow haue heard before the great vaunts that Doctor Ridley made in his disputations at Cambridge vnder K. Edward how euidently forsooth and apparently the truth stood with him and his fellowes this vpon siue principall grounds and head-springs as he calleth them vvhich are the Maiestie and verity of scriptures the most certaine testimony of the ancient Fathers the definition of a Sacrament the abâ—ominable heresie of Eutiches and the most sure beleese of the article of our faith He ascended vp to heauen B. Cranmer also after that againe in the beginninge of Q. Maryes raigne settinge forth a certayne vauntinge schedell which Fox called a Purgation of Thomas Archbishopp Cranmer hath this chalenge therin I vvith Peter Martyr saith he and other foure or fiue vvhich I shall choose vvill by Gods grace take vpon vs to desend all the doctrine and Religion sett â—orth by our soueraigne Lord K. Edward the sixth to be more pure and accordinge to Gods word then any other that hath bin vsed in England these thousand yeares so that Gods vvord may be iudge and that the reasons and proofes of both parts may be sett out in vvrytinge to the entent as well that all the world may examine and iudge theron as that no man shall start backe from his vvrytingâ— 76. Thus he And now yow haue seene more or lesse by the former disputation how he his fellow Ridley were able to performe their bragges and though yow haue seene them brought to the exigents which before hath appeared yet yf yow will beleeue them or Iohn Fox their Chronicler settinge forth their Acts and Monuments they were so farre of from being conquered as the aduerse part was rather putt to the foyle for that they could say nothinge in effect against them And for example Fox wryteth of Doctor VVeston who most of all other vrged them with many good arguments as yow haue heard that not only he had his Theseus there by him to help him out to witt his beere-pott but moreouer that he said neuer a true word nor made neuer a true conclusion almost in that disputation Which how true or false yt is the reader himselfe may be iudge that hath pervsed ouer the same in this our review And the very like in effect wryteth B Cranmer in a certayne letter of his to the Councell vpon the 23. of Aprill 1554. immediatly after the disputation ended complayninge greatly of the disorder iniquity therin vsed which yet by that we haue examined before out of their owne words I meane set downe in Fox his penne being bent wholy to their fauour there could not be great iniquity or inequality the combatt consistinge in discussinge authorityes of auncient Fathers but yt is the nature of this people as alwayes to be contentious so euer to be clamourous and neuer satisfied except they haue their will but especially to wryte and speake both contemptuously and partially yow shall heare how Malster Ridley relateth the euent of this disputation for that hauinge sett downe his owne disputations and aunswers in the prison and this with the greatest aduantage yow must imagine that he could diuise after much
A REVIEVV OF TEN PVBLIKE DISPVTATIONS Or Conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares vnder K. Edward Qu. Mary concerning some principall points in Religion especially of the Sacrament sacrifice of the Altar VVHERBY May appeare vpon how vveake groundes both Catholike Religion vvas changed in England as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions and offer themselues to the fire for the same vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said Disputations BY N. D. Aug. lib. 2. against Petilian the Donatist VVe are constrayned to heare discusse and refute these trifles of yours least the simpler and weaker sort should fall into your snares Imprinted vvith licence Anno M. DC IIII. The contentes of this Reuievv THe Preface shewing what vtility disputation may bring for discussion of matters in controuersy and how farre togeather with the causes why the reuiew of these ten disputations is now published 1. Often publike disputations recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England about controuersies in Religion especially concerninge the blessed Sacrament of the Altar vvithin the space of foure yeares at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary besides many other more particular held in Bishops consistoryes and other places about the same matters CHAP. I. 2. The state of the cheife question handled in the forsaid disputations concerninge the Reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse with the cheese grounds that be on eyther side CHAP. II. 3. Certayne obseruations to be noted for better answeringe of hereticall cauillations against the forsaid articles CHAP. III. 4. The examination of such arguments as in the former disputations were alleaged by the Zivinglians and Caluinists against the Reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament CHAP. IV. 5. VVhat Catholike arguments were alleaged in these disputations for the reall presence how they were answered or shifted of by the Protestants CHAP. V. 6. Of two other articles about Transubstantiation and the Sacrament of the Altar what passed in this disputation CHPP. VI. THE PREFACE Shewinge what vtility disputation may bringe for discussion of matters in controuersie how farre togeather vvith the causes vvhy the reuievv of these ten disputations is now published THAT disputation is a good meanes and profitable instrument to examine and try out truth euen in matters of faith yf yt be rightly vsed vvith due circumstances no man can deny for that experience in Gods Church doth teach yt to vvitt that great vtility hath often-tymes byn receaued by such disputations and vve read amonge other examples that in the tyme of Antoninus the Emperour sonne of Seuerus that died in Yorke a little more then a hundred yeares after Christ the Montanists heresy vvho vvere called also Cataphrigians grovving strong and dravvinge to it diuers pricipall men and namely Tertullian vvith the admiratiō of the vvhole vvorld one Caius a Cath man most excellently learned and of rare and vertuous life tooke vpon him to dispute publikely in Rome in the presence of the vvhole Church vvith licēce of Zepherinus the Pope against a chiefe principall man of that sect called Proclus and so confounded him therin as frō that day forvvard the sect began greatly to decline of vvhich disputatiō do make mentiō both Eusebius S. Hierome yt did much profitt that Catholike cause 2. And about 2. hundred yeares after this againe vve read of another profitable disputation held in our countrey by S. Germanus his fellovves French Bishopps vvith the Brittish Pelagians vpon the yeare of Christ 429. vvherby they vvere so confuted as also vvith the miracles vvrought by S. German by certaine reliques brought from Rome as their heresie neuer prospered there aftervvard but vvas soone extinguished VVe read in like manner of diuers publike cōflicts disputatiōs held by S. Austen vvith diuers learned heretiks of sundry sects as namely vvith Fortunatus a Manichean priest in the citty of Hippo in Africa vpon the yeare 392. al the clergy people being present publike notaryes appointed to set dovvne both their argumēts the issue of this disputatiōs vvas that vvhē the Manichean heretike could not ansvvere he said saith Possidonius secum suis maioribus collaturum that he vvould conferre those difficultyes vvith his betters then if they could not satisfy him se animae suae consulturum that he vvould haue care of his ovvne soule But this care vvas saith the same Possidonius that he ranne avvay from the citty and neuer appeared there againe VVhich point S. Augustine himselfe obiecteth in a certayne epistle to another Manichee Priest that came to succeed in Fortunatus his place in that citty prouokinge him also to like disputation but the heretike refused the combatt 3. And after this againe the said Father being novv made Bishopp vpon the yeare of Christ 405. he disputed publikely for tvvo dayes togeather vvith another principall Manichean heretike named Foelix in presence of the vvhole people notaryes being appointed on both sides to take their arguments In vvhich disputation S. Austen did so euidently conuince his aduersarie as he in the end yelded a strange example in an heretike and renounced his heresie and became a Catholike vvhereby the Mauichean heresie vvas so shaken and discredited throughout all Africa as no man euer openly aftervvard durst defend the same in disputation but it vanished avvay by little and little as a smoke vvhen the fire is putt out This vvhole disputation is to be seene at large in S. Austen laid forth in tvvo books of his de actis cum Faelice Manichaeo And this for the Manicheans 4. But vvith the Donatists and Arrians he had many other like conflicts as for example vpon the yeare of Christ 411. there vvas a sollemne disputation held at Carthage in Africa for diuers daies togeather betvvene the Catholike and Donatist Bishopps the Cath. Bishopps being in number 286. vvherof the principall disputer vvas S. Austen himselfe of the Donatist Bishops 279. vvhich shevveth the multitude of heretiks in those parts to haue byn great notvvithstandinge they had bin much diminished by Cath. Bishops labours and vvrytings for that 17. yeares before there mett togeather against the Catholiks 400. Donatist Bishopps exceptinge six this disputation vvas before the Conte Marcellinus gouernour of that countrey and publike notaryes vvere present to take the argumēts on both sides and all being ended the Iudge pronounced this sentence Omnium documentorum manifestatione à Catholicis Donatistas confutatos That the Donatists vvere conuinced by the Catholiks by the manifest truth of all kind of arguments S. Augustine himselfe setteth forth a breefe relation of all that meeting disputation intituling yt Breuiculum And in a certayne epistle of his testifieth moreouer of the euent that albeit those miserable Bishops vvere not conuerted therby but rather made more obstinate obdurate yet that many of their people vvere especially of the
fro vvhat shall vve thinke of the vnlearned and ignorant people that cannot vnderstand that is argued and much lesse iudge therof and yet vpon the creditt of such disputations do aduenture their foules as yovv haue seene by many lamentable examples before in both meÌ„ vveomen that vpon the fame creditt of these English disputations heere sett dovvne by Fox partlie vnder K. Edward partlie vnder Queene Mary and vpon the probabilitie of some fond and broken arguments vsed therin for the Protestants side as somevvhat apparant plausible to their senses capacity haue not only stood therein most arrognatly against their Bishopps and learned Pastors by open disputatioÌ„s in their Courts and Consistoryes but haue runne also to the fire for the same vvherof Allerton Tankerfield Crashfield Fortune and others before mentioned being but Cooks Carpenters and Coblars by occupation yea vveomen also as Anne Alebright Alice Potkins Ioan Lashford Alice Dryuer and others may be ridiculous but lamentable examples 16. Neither is this a nevv or strange thinge that hereticall vveomen should grovv to such insolency as to stand in disputation vvith the learnedst Bishops of the Catholike side for that vve read it recorded in Ecclesiasticall historyes aboue 12. hundred yeares gone to vvitt vpon the yeare of Christ 403. that a certayne vvillfull vvoman of the citty of Antioch named Iulia infected vvith the abhominable heresie of the Manichees and feruent therein came vnto the citty of Gaza vvherof S. Porphyrius a holy learned man vvas Bishop beginning there to peruert diuers Christians being for the same reprehended by the Bishopp she contemned him yea chalenged him to open disputatioÌ„ vvhich the good man admittinge she behaued herselfe so insolently therein as vvas intolerable So as vvhen he had suffered her a great vvhile to alleage her blasphemous arguments could by no meanes reduce her or make her harken to the truth he fell from disputation to vse another meane turning himselfe to God sayinge O Eternall God vvhich hast created all thinges and art only eternall hauinge no beginninge or endinge vvho art glorified in the blessed Trinitie strike this vvomans tongue and stopp her mouth that she speake no more blasphemyes against thee VVhich vvords being vttered Iulia began to stammer and to change countenance fallinge into an extasis and so leesing her voyce remained dumme vntill she died vvhich vvas soone after vvherat tvvo men and tvvo vveomen that came vvith her fell dovvne at the Bishopps feete as kinge pardon and vvere conuerted as vvere diuers gentills also by the same miracle 17. And this vvas the conclusion of that disputation and though it pleased not almightie God to vse the like miracles externallie in Qu. Maryes dayes for the repressinge of those insoleÌ„t vveomen that disputed so malepartlie and vttered so manie blasphemous speaches against the soueraigne misterie of Christs reall presence in the Sacrament yet can there be no great doubt but that invvardlie he vsed the same or no lesse iustice vnto them especiallie seing he suffered them to go to the fire all vvithout repentance and so to perish both bodilie and ghostlie temporallie add eternallie And for that in recytinge their storyes before sett dovvne intendinge all breuitie possible I could not conuenientlie lay forth their seuerall arguments in disputation as neyther of those that vvere their maisters and inducers to this maddnes I haue thought good heere to examine all togeather in this Re-vievv vvhereby yovv shall see vvhat grounds they had of so great an enterprise and of so obstinate a prosecution therof And this shall suffice by vvay of Preface Novv vvill vve passe to the recytall of the said disputations OF TEN PVBLIKE DISPVTATIONS Recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England About Controuersies in Religion especially concerning the blessed Sacrament of the Altar within the space of 4. yeares at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K Edward and Queene Mary Besides many other more particular held in Bishops Consistoryes and other places about the same matters CHAP. I. Novv then to come more neere to the matter yt selfe we are breefly to recount the forsaid ten disputations or publike meetinges and conferences that after the change of the outward face of Catholike Religion in England were held in our countrey within the space only of 4. or 5. yeares and the effects that ensued thereof which in great part were not vnlike to the successe of all those disputations meetings conferences colloquies and other attempts of triall before mentioned to haue ben with little profitt of agreement made in Germany Polony France and other places amongst the Protestants of this age since the beginning of their new ghospell the causes and reasons wherof haue in part ben touched by vs in our precedent preface and shall better appeare afterward by the examination of these ten publike disputatioÌ„s from which as from generall storehouses or head schooles were borrowed the armour arguments for these other lesser bickerings of particular Foxian Martyrs which they had with their Bishops Prelates Pastors at their examinations arraignemeÌ„ts vpon the confidence pride wherof they were induced to offer themselues most obstinately pittifully vnto the fire as in th'exameÌ„ of Iohn Fox his Calendar you haue seene aboundantly declared First Disputation §. 1. 2. Wherfore to recount the particulars as breifely as we may the first publike disputation of these ten wherof we now are to treat was held at Oxford against the reall presence of the blessed body bloud of our Sauiour in the Sacrament of the Altar by Peter Martyr an Italian Apostata friar vpon the yeare of Christ as Fox setteth it downe 1549. which was the third of K. Edward the sixt his raigne about the moneth of Iune for he expresseth not the very day and the cheife moderator or iudge in this disputation was D. Cox Chancelourat that tyme of the vniuersity but after vnder Q. Elizabeth was B. of Ely and his assistents were Henry B. of Lincolne D. Haynes deane of Exceter M. Richard Marison Esquier and Christophor Neâ—â—son Doctor of Cyuill law all comissionars saith Fox of the Kings Maiestie sent downe for this effect to authorize the disputations 3. For better vnderstandinge wherof yow must note that albeit K. Edward had raigned now more then full two yeares and that the protector Seymer and some others of his humour would haue had change of doctrine established euen at the beginninge about the point of the blessed Sacrament yet could they not obtayne it in ParlameÌ„t partly for that the farre greater part of the realme was yet against it but especially for that it was not yet resolued by the Archbishopp Cranmer himselfe of whome if you remember Iohn Fox doth complaine in one place vnder K. Henry that good Cranmer had not yet a full feelinge of that doctrine Whervpon we see that in the first parlament of K. Edwards tyme begon vpon the 4.
in order and with licence as the rest did whose aunswere Fox relateth in these words then quoth Philpott I had rather be absent altogeather so insufferable was all order or temperate manner of proceedinge to this disorderly man and so Q. Mary sent a wryte the next day to dissolue the conuocation And such as had disputed saith Fox on the contrary part were driuen some to sly some to deny and some to dye though to most mens iudgements that heard the disputation they had the vpper hand c. These are hereticall bragges as yow will better see afterwards when we come to examining of arguments And as for dyinge none of the forsaid disputers died to our knowledge but only Philpott in his madd moode Cheyney Elmour and Haddon gott Bishopricks other dignityes vnder Q. Elizabeth And so much of this disputation in the conuocation house Eight ninth and tenth Disputation §. 8. 41. These last three disputations I do ioyne togeather for that they were held successiuely in Oxford vpon three seuerall dayes in the moneth of Aprill anno 1554. with Cranmer Ridley and Latymer vpon the forsaid three questions of the reall presence Transubstantiation and the sacrifice of the masse The names saith Fox of the vniuersity Doctors and graduates appointed to dispute against them vpon the said questions were these of Oxford Doctor VVeston prolocutor Doctor Tressam Doctor Cole Doctor Oglethorpe Doctor Pye Maister Harpesfield Maister Fecknam Of Cambridge Doctor Yonge Vice Chauncelour Doctor Glynn Doctor Seton Doctor VVatson Doctor Sedgewicke and Doctor Atkinson to witt six of each vniuersity all meeting at Oxford togeather to this effect Thus farre Fox who describeth also the manner and forme of this disputation much more reasonable orderly indifferent then all the former disputations vnder the Protestants yf we beleeue Fox himselfe who saith that in the middle of the Doctors there were appointed foure to be exceptores argumentorum wryters of the arguments to vse his words and a table sett in the middest and foure notaryes sittinge with them So as by his relation there were eight indifferent men chosen to register whatsoeuer passed yet yf he relate truly the manner of arguinge was not so orderly and schoolelike as might haue byn wherby yt came to passe that scarce any argument was prosecuted to the end and the answeringe was such as comonly was wholy from the purpose as by diuers examples yow shall see afterwards declared as also we shall examine what arguments Cranmer could alleage against the reall presence vpon the fourth day of disputation to witt the next day after Latymer had ended For that Doctor Harpesfield answeringe for his degree defended the question of the reall presence and Maister Cranmer was courteously inuited to the said disputation and suffered to say what he would or could against that verity was fully answered notwithstandinge Fox will needs beare vs in hand to the contrary as his fashion is 42. And wheras the said Doctor Harpesfield in his preface did much commend the diligent readinge of scripture with prayer and conferring one place with another but yet said that this was no secure way or meane for euery particular man to resolue himselfe of the sense therof but must rather beleeue the body of the Catholike Church therin then his owne â—udgement Fox saith that Maister Cranmer in his reply reprehended that direction sayinge vvheras yow referre the true sense iudgement of the scriptures to the Catholike Church as iudge therof yow are much deceaued c. And Fox himselfe addeth this marginall note Yf Maister Harpesfield when he saith we must not follow our owne heads and senses â—ut giue ouer our iudgement to the holy Catholike Church had willed vs to submitt our selues to the holy Ghost he had said much better So Iohn But I would aske him who shal be iudge what the holy Ghost teacheth vs For that is the question For yf a particular man readinge the scripture with prayer and conferringe place with place only may be presumed to attayne therby the true meaninge of the holy Ghost which notwithstanding cannot be certayne for that an heretike may vse the same meanes how much more may the vniuersall body of the Church vsing the selfe-same meanes also as many of her learned members no doubt do how much more I say may shee be thought and presumed to attayne to the true sense of the holy Ghost seing that she hath a speciall promise of his infallible assistance to that effect which particular men haue not though heretiks are wont proudly to presume thereof And so yow shall see yt appeare also in these disputations when we come to discusse the particulars 43. And heere it is to be noted that presently vpon the end of this Oxford disputation vnder Q. Mary it was reported that others should be held at Cambridge betweene the Doctors of that vniuersity and the residue of the Protestant preachers that were in prison wherof they being aduertised by the warninge of Doctor Ridley as yt seemeth by Fox and castinge their heads togeather vpon the matter determined to refuse all disputation except it were before the Queene and priuy Councell or before the houses of parlament to which effect they sett sorth a publike wrytinge and protestation with certayne reasons of excuses mouinge them thervnto subscribed by Hooper Farrar Taylor Philpott Bradford Rogers Saunders and some others And their cheefe excuse was for that matters had byn determined by parlament before they were disputed of not consideringe that in K. Edwards dayes the same course with farre lesse reason was held and determined by Parlament before the Protestants disputations in Cambridge Of diuers other Disputations held besides these ten §. 9. 44. These ten disputations I thought good to sett downe for that they were held vpon the first chaunges of Religion in England within the space of 4. or 5. yeares as before hath byn said diuers others I do passe ouer though some of them were as sollemne as these as that of K. Henry the 8. against Lambert vvherin Doctor Cranmer disputed for the reall presence and the Lord Cromwell gaue sentence against him as we haue shewed before in Lamberts story That also which was held on pretended in the beginninge of the raigne of Q Elizabeth at Westminster betweene nyne persons of the Catholike parte and as many of the Protestant preachers newly come from beyond the seas Those of the Catholike side were siue Bishopps to witt Doctor Iohn VVhite Bishopp of VVinchester Doctor Baynes of Lichsield Doctor Scott of Chester Doctor Oglethorpe or Carliele Doctor VVatson of Lincolne with foure other Doctors adioyned vnto them Doctor Cole Deane of London Doctor Langedale Archdeacon of Lewis Doctor Harpesfield Archdeacon of Canterbury and Doctor Chadsey Archdeacon of Middlesex And for the Protestant parte were Doctor Scory an Apostata friar Doctor Cox before mentioned that fledd the realme vnder Q.
that so yt was told them And this they thought sufficient for their assurance 56. But now on the contrary side yf a man would oppose to these ten publike disputations before recyted ten learned Councells of the Catholike Church that disputed examined and condemned this heresie of theirs against the reall presence vvithin the space of these last 600. yeares since Berengarius first began yt as namely those foure named by Lanckfranke to witt that of Rome vnder Leo the 9. and another of Versells vnder the same Pope the third at Towars in France vnder Pope Victor successor to Leo the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Nicolas the second In all which Berengarius himselfe was present and in the last not only abiured but burnt his owne booke And after this six other Councells to the same effect the first at Rome vnder Gregory the 7. where Berengarius againe abiured as VValdensis testifieth The second of Lateran in Rome also vnder Innocentius the third the generall Councell of Vienna the fourth at Rome againe vnder Pope Iohn the 22. the fifth at Constance and the sixt at Trent All these Councells I say yf a man consider with indifferency of what variety of learned men they consisted of what singular piety and sanctity of life of how many nations of what dignity in Gods Church how great diligence they vsed to discusse this matter what prayer what conferringe of scriptures and other meanes they vsed and with how great consent of both Greeke and Latyn Church conforme to all antiquity they determined and resolued against the opinion of Protestants in our dayes he will easily discouer how much more reason and probability of security there is of aduenturinge his soule of the one side then of the other which yet he will better do by contemplation of the vanity of new Protestants arguments and obiections against so ancient founded and continued a truth Which obiections we shall examine in the Chapters followinge And so much for this THE STATE OF THE CHIEFE QVESTIONS handled in the forsaid disputations Concerninge the reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse vvith the chiefe groundes that be on eyther side CHAP. II. THE questions that were most treated and vrged on both sides at the two changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary were principally three all concerninge the Sacrament of the Altar as before hath byn shewed The first about the reall presence of Christ in the said Sacrament the second concerninge the manner of his being there by Transubstantiation and the third about the same as it is a Sacrifice Which three points of Catholike doctrine being left by K. Henry the 8. standinge in vigour as he had found them deliuered and preserued by all his ancestours Kings of England from the beginninge of our conuersion vnto Christian Religion they were all changed within two yeares after the said Kings death by authority of his sonne being then somewhat lesse then a dozen yeares ould and by force of a certayne act of parlament confirmed by his name intituled An act for the vniformity of seruice and administration of Sacraments c. Which act though in shew yt conteyned nothinge els but the admission and approbation of a certayne new booke of Common-prayer and administration of Sacraments for so are the words of the Statute gathered togeather by Cranmer Ridley and some others of the same humor yet for that in this new communion booke togeather with many other articles of auncient beleefe these three also of the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice were altogeather altered and a new manner of faith therin taught yt was giuen forth that all was established and setled by Parlament and for that this collection of new articles of beleefe passed as you haue heard in a bundell or fardell shuffled vp togeather in hast vnder the name of a reformed booke of Common-prayer without any great examination or dispute about the particulars but in generall only takinge voyces in the parlament house as well of lay-men as other learned and vnlearned whether the booke should passe or noe wherin the L. Seymour Protector and his crew hauing the Kings authority in their hands and gettinge Cranmer and Ridley on their sides for loue of weomen and other preferment easily preuayled as by the statute yt selfe may appeare yt was thought expedient as before hath byn noted that presently after the statute published two meanes should be vsed for authorizinge and better creditinge the same The one by persuasion of diuers meetings conferences and disputations of the learneder sort which before yow haue heard related and the other by imprisonment depriuing such Bishops and other cheefe Ecclesiasticall persons as should shew themselues most forward or able to resist this course which they began with VVinchester Durham and London And thus passed they on for those 4. or 5. yeares that remained of K. Edwards raigne after this change wherein notwithstandinge almighty God shewed wonderfully his hand of iudgement and punishment soone after vpon the principall authors of this innouation both spirituall temporall as of the later both the Seamours Northumberland Suffolke and diuers of their followers of the former Cranmer Ridley Hooper Latymer the like as to the world is euident 2. For vpon this followed the raigne of Q. Mary for other 4. or 5. yeares who seeing so pittifull a breach made in the realme by this vnlucky alteration she as a zealous Catholike Princesse endeauored to restore the old faith and Religion againe to the former vnity of the vniuersall Church and close vp the wound that had byn made vsinge to this effect the selfe same meanes of instruction and correction by arguments and punishments but in different manner and with farre vnlike iustice of proceeding For that the arguments were the very same which euer had byn vsed by ancient Fathers against old heretiks in the like controuersies and the punishments were no other then such as auncient Ecclesiasticall Cannons did prescribe and were vsed only towards them that eyther had byn cheefe authors of the innouations or stood so obstinately in defence therof as by no meanes they could be recalled 3. Now then yt is to be considered which of these two sorts of people had more ground or reason either those that withstood the first change in K. Edwards dayes which was from the old accustomd Religion to a new or those that resisted the second change or exchange vnder Q. Mary which was nothinge els indeed but a returne from the new to the ould againe And heerby will appeare the state of the controuersie vvhich now vve are to handle For as for the first sort to witt Catholiks the historicall state of their controuersie is manifest concerninge these three questions about the Sacrament for that no man can deny but that the doctrine of the first and third which is the reall presence and Sacrifice had byn receaued and held for
true throughout England wherein concurred also the vvhole Christian vvorld abroad from the tyme before by me prefixed of our first conuersion and more euen from the Apostles dayes neyther could any tyme be appointed or memory brought forth when how or by whome the said doctrines had their beginnings in England or els where which accordinge to S. Augustines rule and diuers particular demonstrations layd downe by vs before in the first part of the Treatise of three Conuersions doth euidently couuince that they came from Christ and his Apostles themselues vvhich ought to be sufficient though no other proofes of Scriptures Fathers Doctors and Councells could be shewed in particular for the same as may be almost infinite and some yow shall heare a little after in this Chapter 4. And as for the second question of Transubstantiation though yt be but a certayne appendix of the first about the manner how Christ is really in the Sacrament as before hath byn shewed was not so particularly declared and defined by the Church in this very tearme of Transubstantiation vntill some 400. yeares gone in the generall Councell of Lateran as neyther the doctrine of homusion or consubstantiality was vntill 300. yeares after Christ in the Councell of Nice neyther the dignity of theotoces wherby the blessed Virgin is called the Mother of God vntill the Councell of Ephesus aboue 400. yeares after Christ yet was the same doctrine euer true before from the beginninge and vttered by the Fathers in other equiualent words speaches of changes and Transmutations of natures conuersions of substances and the like and when there had not byn such other euident proofes extant for the truth therof yet the consent and agreement of so great and vniuersall a Councell of Christendome as the said Lateran was wherin both the Greeke and Latyn Church agreed and after great and longe searche by readinge disputinge prayinge conferringe of Scriptures and Fathers and other such meanes concluded this doctrine to be truth Yf there had byn I say nothinge els for English Catholiks to rest vpon in this point but the generall consent and agreement of so learned holy and venerable an assembly yt might iustly seeme sufficient in the sight of an indifferent or reasonable man to weygh and ouerweygh against the particular iudgements of all the innouators of any age to the contrary and so no maruayle though they stood so earnest against that innouation this being the state of the controuersie on their part 5. But now for the Protestants the state of their question was farre different For first wheras Martyn Luther about the 9. or 10. yeare of K. Henryes raigne had begon some noueltyes about the second and third question of Transubstantiation and Sacrifice holding still the first of the reall presence for firme and that three of his first schollers Oecolampadius Carolstadius and Zuinglius full sore against his will takinge occasion of his innouations had added others of their owne about the said first question denyinge the reall presnce though in different sorts and that after them againe Iohn Caluyn a French-man had diuised a third manner of beleefe therin not a little different from them all about the said doctrine both affirminge denyinge the reall presence in different manner and sound of words yt seemed good to our English Protestants at that tyme or the more part therof to choose the last and newest opinion of all and to establish yt by parlament banishinge ther vpon the ould faith that euer vntill that day had byn held and beleeued in our countrey as well by themselues as others 6. And thus came in the first new Religion â—nto England by some shew of publike authority which being sett forth with so great applause and ostentation both of publike disputations colloquyes conferences lectures preachings exposition of scriptures and consent of Parlament as yow haue heard did partly by this outward shew and ostentation of authority partly by the pleasinge face of â—ouelty yt selfe and sweet freedome that yt brought from all former Ecclesiasticall discipline so infect and enchaunt the harts iudgements affections of diuers of the common people and some also of the learned but the â—ighter and more licentious sort as afterward vvhen Q. Mary came to take accoumpt and vvould recall them againe to the station vvhich they had forsaken they chose rather of â—ride and obstinacy to suffer any thinge yea â—o dye and go to the fire then to renounce these new fancyes once fastened vpon them â—nto which pertinacity the fame of the forsaid Protestants disputations did not a little animate them for that yt was giuen out generally and so doth Fox stand stiffely in the same that the Sacramentaryes had the vpper hand in all as well against the Lutherans in the first question of reall presence as against the Catholiks in that and all the rest vvhich bragg how vayne yt was will appeare after when we come to examine their arguments in particular 7. But yet before we come to that two other points seeme expedient to be performed for better direction of the readers vnderstandinge in these high misteryes of our faith the first to see what sure grounds the Catholiks had and haue at this day to stand firme and immoueable in their old beleefe about these articles notwithstandinge any plausible or deceytfull arguments of sense and reason that may be brought against them secondly certayne obseruations wherby the force or rather fraud of hereticall obiections may be discouered which so beguyled many simple people in Q. Maryes dayes and made them runne headlonge to their perdition the first of these points I shall handle in this Chapter the second in the next that followeth Catholike groundes of these three articles and first of the reall presence §. 1. 8. The first ground that Catholike men haue of these and all other misteryes of Christian faith that are aboue the reach of common sense and reason is the authority of the Catholike Church by which they were taught the same as points of faith reuealed from God And this is such a ground as we see by experience that the most part of people of what Religion soeuer being yonge or vnlearned can yeld no other reason in effect why they beleeue this or that article of theire faith but for that they receaued the same from their Church and teachers therof being not able themselues to searche out any other grounde therof yea the most learned of all from their infancy tooke all vpon this assurance only of their Church which Church yf they held to be of infallible authority so as she can neither be deceaued nor deceaue as we do of the Catholike then should they rest firme sure in their opinion vpon this ground but yf they hould that all Churches may erre and bringe into error both in doctrine and manners as yow haue heard Martyn Bucer hold before in his Cambridge conclusions and most
Christs institution This is my body which can haue no other probable exposition but that the bread is chaunged into his body And so yt is expounded by all the forsaid Fathers and others that before this controuersie fell out interpreted the same words of our Sauiour 31. These grounds then had the English Catholiks in K. Edwards dayes to stand in the defence of this doctrine that is to say the cleere words of scripture so vnderstood by all antiquity togeather with the assertions and asseuerations of all the Fathers the determination of Councells presently vpon the controuersie first moued and namely of that great famous Lateran Councell wherin concurred both the Greeke and Latyn Church there being present the Greeke patriarks of Constantinople and Hierusalem 70. metropolitan Archbishops and aboue a thousand and two hundred other Fathers of diuers states degrees compare this with a meeting of some twenty or thirty ministers impugninge the same All which hauinge disputed the matter and considered as well by scripture and by ancient tradition of the Fathers and vniuersall Cath. Church what had byn held before did with full agreement determine declare this matter accursinge whosoeuer should from that tyme foreward deny that doctrine of Transubstantiation Which decree of that Councell being receaued generally vvithout contradiction throughout the Christian world hath byn confirmed by seauen other Councells since that tyme as before we haue shewed And let the discreet reader vveigh vvith himselfe vvhich party hath more security for yt selfe eyther the Catholike that followed all this authority consent of antiquity or our new Protestants that vpon fresh imaginations of their owne heads diuised a new doctrine contrary to all this antiquity And thus much of this article for a tast of that which may be alleaged for yt Groundes for the sacrifice of the masse §. 2. 32. The third question proposed to be handled in the foresaid disputations was about the sacrifice of the masse to witt whether the selfe-same body of our Lord whose reall presence is proued in the first question be not only a Sacrament in the Christian Church as yt is receaued vnder a signe of bread and wyne by the Priest and communicants but a sacrifice also as yt is offered to God the Father by the Priest vpon the Altar and whether this externall and visible sacrifice be appointed by Christ to be iterated and dayly frequented in the Church vnto the worlds end and this both for an externall worshipp peculiar to Christians whereby they are distinguished from all other people as also for propitiation of sinnes by applyinge the meritt and vertue of the other bloudy sacrifice of our Sauiour on the Crosse once offered for all and euer auayleable as S. Paul at large declareth in his epistle to the Hebrewes for sanctifyinge the redeemed this then being the question and this being a doctrine so generally receaued throughout the Christian world both in the Greeke Latin AEthiopian Armenian and other Christian Churches as there was no doubt or question therof when Luther and his ofspring began yt fell out in England that vnder the child King Edward his raigne name authority that the L. Seymour protect our and his followers with some few Priests that were weary of massinge and desirous of marriage but cheefly Cranmer and Ridley Hooper Latymer and others bad heads of the cleargy in those dayes tooke vpon them to pull downe this publike vse of sacrifice and afterward to examine and call in question the doctrine therof At which chaunge and suddayne innouation neuer seene in England before from the first day that Christian Religion entred vnder the Apostles as all the realiues and contreyes round about remayned astonished so diuers notwithstanding of the lighter sort enclyned to noueltyes applauded to them followed their diuise others more prudent and respectiue to their owne saluation consideringe that there went more in this matter then the pleasure and fancyes of a few particular men stood constant in that which before they had receaued and that which generally they saw and knew to be in vse throughout all Christendome without cōtradiction which could not be by S. Austens rule but that yt must needs come downe from the Apostles themselues for so much as all opposite doctrine to that which was first planted by them receaued from them could neuer be so generally admitted without contradiction 33. Wherfore entringe into due consideration of this matter whilst all the ruffe ran the other way for 5. or 6. yeares space vnder that King Child and those other little tyrants that bare sway and one destroyed the other by Gods iust iudgement vnder him These good men the Catholikes I meane fell to search what grounds they had or might find out for this so receaued a doctrine practise as this of the masse and sacrifice was And first they found that wheras the first insult of heretiks was against the very name of the masse as a new diuised thinge without reason or signification they found I say that it was a very ancient and vsuall word for the externall sacrifice of Christians vpon the Altar in the Latyn Church for twelue hundred yeares past and downeward in place wherof the Grecians haue vsed the word Liturgie Synaxis and the like and this vse is not only to be shewed by the testimonyes of particular Fathers as Saint Ambrose S. Augustine S. Leo S. Gregory Victor Vticensis Cassianus and other but by whole Councells also as by that of Rome vnder Pope Siluester the first of 275. Bishops held almost 1300. yeares gone the second fourth of Carthage held the next age after and the Councell of Agatha in France the same age the Councell of Ilerdum and Valentia in Spaine and of Orleance in France all aboue 1000. yeares gone which was sufficient matter against the vanyty of heretiks that condemned the name the words for example of S. Ambrose sayinge Missam facere coepi orare in oblatione Deum I began to say masse and to pray to God in the oblation of the sacrifice and those of S. Austen In lectione quae nobis ad missas legenda est audituri sumus We shall heare or this matter more in the lesson which is to be read vnto vs at masse These speaches I say this practise of so ould learned holy Priests as these and their fellowes were did preuayle more with the grauer sort of English people then the lightnesse inconstancy of Cranmer Ridley and such other licentious Priests as for liberty fell to Apostasie 34. And this for the name of the masse But for the nature and substance therof which conteyneth the externall true and proper sacrifice of the Christian Church they found such store of euident proofes and most graue authorityes as might stay confirme and satisfie any mans mynd that were not willfully bent to the