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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A03398	A suruay of the pretended holy discipline. Contayning the beginninges, successe, parts, proceedings, authority, and doctrine of it: with some of the manifold, and materiall repugnances, varieties and vncertaineties, in that behalfe	Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610.	1593 (1593)	STC 1352; ESTC S100667	297,820	466

well or euill wherefore they esteeme all those to bee enemies that in reason demaunde restitution of them and declare that it belongeth not vnto them but that they haue stollen it awaye from the Church Likewise afterwardes I doubt not but if they were called to account for the bestowing of such goods and if it were taken out of their handes as it was taken from Priestes and Monkes and giuen to such as should better bestowe it they would take pepper in the nose fall to playing the Diuels part Lastlye I put the case sayth he that a whorehunter or baude steale an honest mans wife and the husbande commeth and demandeth this wise of this russiā that hath stollen her away and reuileth this Russian or Baude for the wronge that he hath done him and goeth to lawe with him whereby there ariseth great strife I would aske of thee who were in the fault Eyther the husband who hath had this wronge or the Rauisher who hath played him this wicked pranke And the answere is thus framed The whorehunter or baude hath as much reason to complaine and bee angrie as hath a theife or robber which is called to account of thefts and robberies which hee hath committed and which is called to iudgement for the same But I will come from Geneua into England that you maie perceiue what our chiefe disciplinarie Reformers do thinke of this matter It is no better then sacrilege and spoiling of God saie the Authours of the second Admonition 157 7 2 to keepe backe any way the prouision which hath beene made for the ministery And the curse of God threatened by Malachie to those that spoyled the Leuites then belongeth will light vppon our spoylers now and vppon them in whose bandes it is to redresse it if they do it not The Author of the booke de disciplina ecclesiastica speaking of Bishops liuings c. saith thus of many in these daies who vnder a pretence of zeale do cry out for reformation Haec orati● gratissima est nonnullis qui suam causam agi putant et iampridem haereditatem istam spe deuorarunt These wordes c. are most acceptable to some who thinke they tende to theyr profitte and haue alreadye in hope deuoured this inheritaunce For they thinking that wee seeke onlie that Bishops might be spoyled doe expect thereby the like praye that they got by the ruines of Monasteries For as for religion they care not what become of it modò ipsi praedari possint so they may waxe welthyer by sacrilege robbery and would not sticke if it were possible to crucifie Christ againe vt tunicam eius sortirentur et vestimenta diuiderent c. But this our age hath many such Souldiers many such Dionysians who thinke that a golden gowne is not fit for God neyther in summer nor winter and yet that it will serue them well at all times and seasons Againe They had rather all religion were banished that al opinion of worshiping fearing God were abolished that all fayth in Christ hope and looking for euerlasting life were forgotten amongst men then to maintaine it with anye pennye of theirs Yea further they will not only giue nothing to the maintenance of the ministery but most vniustly scrape vnto thēselues that which was liberally giuen by others spoyle the Church robbing her of her goods c. But they must eyther restore it againe that the church may be prouided-for of worthy teachers or else make themselues guiltye of the losse and destruction of so many soules as by theyr meanes are destitute of a preacher and shall perish in their ignorance And againe Let good princes not only not spoyle the ministerie themselues or suffer it to be robbed of others but liberally according to the commaundement of our Sauiour Christ see it maintayned and prouided for through their Kingdomes nor suffer that which was once giuen to this end to be prodigally spent wasted in aulicos luxus atque delicias nor bestowed vppon Noblemens seruaunts nor other innumerable sortes of so vng●dly and intollerable abuses by sacrilege the church robbery c. M. Cartwright also in his last booke very well allowing of the former mans iudgement and vtterly misliking of such greedy cormorants for so he termeth them as gape after the pray at large before mentioned writeth in this sort Our meaning is not that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the Church to the filling of the bottomlesse sackes of their greedy appetites which yawne after this pray and wold therby to their perpetuall shame purchase thēselues a field of blood There was a booke published in the parliament time 1585. intituled A lamentable complaint of the Cominaltie Wherein the authors haue at large handled this matter Know ye not say they That the vniust shall not inherit the kingdome of God What greater iniustice then to defraude God of his glory the ministers of theyr right c. How can wee saie that wee loue Christ No not so much as Antichrist loueth the Diuell For Antichrist is bountifull to maintaine his seruice if the like liberality were vsed amongst vs without all doubt a great number would be stayed from passing the Seas to Roome or Rhemes to become Iesuits We read Leuit. 27. That nothing seperate from common vse may be sould c. because it was holy vnto the Lorde The which Law is not ceremoniall but iudicial the equitie therof endureth to the Church for euer the violation of the same lawe hath beene horriblye punished in former dayes as appeareth by the examples of Achan Nabuchadnezar Balthazar Ananias and Saphira c. And the like iustice no man can escape either in this world or in the world to come that committeth the like offence Vppon that place of Mal. where it is sayd That the spoyling of the Priestes was the spoyling of god Thus also they write Hath not the whole nation of England spoyled the Lord in like manner and rather more Surely this is written for our learning that we might know that things consecrated to God for the seruice of his church belong vnto him for euer A number moe of such speaches I could alledge out of their writings But these may serue to let you know that whatsoeuer in times past any of their sort did seeme to yealde vnto for a time touching the alienation of Church-liuings yet this was alwaies their purpose to get them againe into their owne handes in the end It had beene a happie matter for the Church if this lesson had been euer obserued Thou shalt not do euill that good may come of it Things had not thē growen to such extremities as they are brought vnto in many places When the Sea maketh a breach it is hardly stopped and a dore once opened to such impietie will be hardly shut againe And yet you see they do what they can to shut it

haue not wanted the common affections of men Much trouble there was before their saide deuise was receaued which made them afterwardes the fonder of it We haue a saying that the Crow thinketh her owne birde the fairest and so doe men and women for the most part their owne children Nature doth therein beare sway with the best But especially she sheweth her force most in the fruicts of a mans mind For as our mindes ought to be more deare vnto vs then our bodies so are the fruites of our minds of greater account with vs then the fruites of our bodies Few men that we heare of will giue their liues for their children but many wee see will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions Which thinges considered I cannot but in some sorte excuse maister Caluin and maister Beza in seeking all manner of waies all shewes all shiftes all aduauntages that possibly they could either finde or deuise whereby they might iustifie in some sorte the birth and bringing vp of their misconceaued offpring The chiefest ouersight was in my opinion that other learned and wise men doe not well obserue these manner of naturall and common affections in them but were carried after them as it were with a whirlewind to like as they liked to say as they said and to doe as they did If maister Caluin and maister Beza affirmed it why it was inough I haue heard it credibly reported that in a certaine Colledge in Cambridge when it happeneth that in there disputations the authority either of Saint Augustine or of Saint Ambrose or of Saint Ierome or of any other of the ancient Fathers nay the whole consent of them all alltogether is alledged it is reiected with very great disda●ne as what tell you me of Saint Augustine Saint Ambrose or of the rest I regard them not a rush were they not men Whereas at other time when it happeneth that a man of an other humor doth aunswere if it fall out that he beinge pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza shall chance to deny it you shall see some beginne to smile in commiseration of such the poore mans simplicity some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption and some will depart away accounting such a kinde of fellowe not worthy the hearing Were not this a pretty and pleasaunt Interlude or Comedy to behold such Parasites playing their partes so Disciplinarian-like And all these follies and dependances that the people haue doted so much after some kinde of Ministers that the inferior sort of those ministers haue taken all for currant coine that hath beene paide them by their superiors and that they the superiors haue beene also so farre ouercaried with the credite of the saide two persons all these follies I say did proceed from this fountaine that neither the people nor their rash seducers did in time put the holy Apostles rule in practise vz. try all thinges and keepe that which is good But it is better late then neuer Since men of all sorts haue entered more carefully into the triall of all the saide pretences together with the very substaunce of that their pretended holy platforme the furious rage of that floud hath beene pretily well diuerted And the very chiefe Captains themselues being vrged of necessity a litle to fall on searching haue found that which I feare they are sorry for and are become as it seemeth like men greatly amased to be at their wits end And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder If Cartwright and his adherents were to beginne the course againe that they haue runne I am perswaded they would neuer tread so much as one steppe in it But nowe they haue engaged their credits they must shift thinges of aswell as they can and where their wards serue them not beare-of the blowes that shall fall vppon them with their heads and shoulders In the yeare 1572. as you haue heard in the former Chapter the first admonition was offered to the Parliament as containing a perfect platforme of the worthy pretended Discipline to haue beene established within this Realme Within a yeare or two after Cartwright taking in hād the defence of that platform did alter it in some points especially where it seemed to ascribe too much vnto the people And then if it bee true which is reported that one desiring vppon a time conference with him about these manner of causes he answered what neede you to talke with me you may haue my Bookes they are Est and Amen I doubt not but he would haue sworne vppon conuenient occasion that the admonitioners platforme so qualified by him was a most perfect patterne for all Churches Howbeit within a while after it proued not so For about the yeare 1583. where before the platfourme of Geneua as it was lefte at large in Cartwrigts Bookes had beene followed now there was a particular draught made for England with a newe forme of common Praier therein prescribed The yeare ensuing 1584. the seuen and twentith of her Maiesty out starteth this Booke with great glory at the Parliament time and forthwith the present gouernment of the Church with all the orders lawes and ceremonies thereof was to be cut-off at one blow and this new booke or platforme must needes be established But it preuailed not Shortly after that Parliament the saide booke and platforme was found amongest themselues to haue some thing amisse in it And the correcting of it was referred to Trauerse Which worke by him performed came out againe about the yeare 1586. when there was an other Parliament in the nine and twentieth of her maiesties raigne But it was then as I suppose seuered from the saide book of Common praier and become an entire worke of it selfe And then also at the saide Parliament there wanted not diuerse solicitors for the admittance of it Afterwardes a new conference was had againe about this seconde corrected booke For still there were some things out of square in it In the yeare 1588. at an assembly in Couentry these doubts which were growen were as it seemeth debated and so were many other Cartwright himselfe being present But which of the saide doubts in their platfourme were then resolued I find it not This appeared that some of them remained which they were not able to resolue vpon For although they then concluded that the platforme it selfe was an essentiall forme of Discipline necessary for all times subscribed vnto the practise of the greatest part of it without any further expecting the magistrats pleasure yet in theyr subscriptions they excepted some fewe points which were reserued to be discussed by certaine brethren in an other assembly Where this assembly was kept I canuot certainely affirme But it appeareth vppon deposition that the next yeare after there was one held in Sainct Iohns Colledge in Cambridge Where Cartwright being againe present and many moe besides diuerse imperfections in the saide

exhorting ruling prouision for the poore and attendance vnto them all which no man in his wits wil deny to be perpetuall and in these expressely they which haue the giftes are commaunded to abide and to content themselues with them Wherefore c. These men you see must either haue their Widdowes or else all is marred And haue them they will if distinguishing similitudes diuiding sillogismes and logicke will get them And besides you may perceiue what most vehement patheticall and peremptory men they are in this behalfe Howbeit you shall finde that other men nay whole Churches for all this heat are of another opinion and withall such men and Churches as neither the defender discourser nor sermoner nor all the priuate disciplinarye conuenticles in England will presume in any sort to compare themselues vnto them Maister Beza doth not thinke the hauing of Widdowes to be such an ordinary and perpetuall institution as it hath beene pretended For at Geneua not such a Widdow if you would giue a pounde for her And yet that platforme is either perfect by this time or else there hanges some curse ouer it But this I am sure of that he who durst take vppon him to tell them in Geneua that by their omission of these Widdowes they haue cruelly wounded the body of Christ they had like desperate ruffians cut of one of his members and that in these respectes the forme of their Disciplinary regiment is maimed and deformed might peraduenture repente him of it Indeede either I am very much deceiued or els this dreame of widdowes beginneth to vanish The very principall nay the onely place vz. Hee that sheweth mercy with cheerefullnesse wherevpon they haue hitherto builte to proue them to be such Church-officers as they haue imagined them to be is boldly and with mayne strength wrested out of their handes notwithstandinge that Maister Caluin M. Beza and M. Cartwright had layde as fast hold vpon it as they could Or peraduenture I might rather say that the two which bee aliue seeing their tenure was nought haue willingly giuen it ouer The Champion I meane that hath done this great deede is Maister Trauers Who writeth of this pointe after this sorte That which followeth of him that sheweth mercy nullum certe munus ecclesiae indicare puto c. I thinke it meaneth not any certaine office but what duety the whole Church ought to shew in relieuing the poore Thus farre and further Maister Trauers in his Latine booke as if you will peruse the place you shall perceiue But you must remember that I doe referre you to his Latine booke and not to the Englishe translation of it Why some may say is it not faithfully translated Shall we thinke that such zealous men as had to deale therein would serue vs as the Iesuites doe It is wee know a practise with that false hypocriticall broode to leaue out and thrust in what they list into the writinges of the ancient Fathers that thereby in time nothing might appeare which shoulde any way make against them But wee will neuer suspect nor belieue that any man who feareth God and least of all that any of that sorte which are so earnest against all abuses and corruptions shoulde play vs such a prancke Surely yee doe well to iudge the best and I my selfe was of your opinion But nowe I am cleane altered How were some of Vrsinus workes vsed at Cambridge And it is true that some other Bookes haue beene handled very strangely else-where But concerning the present point this is the trueth The translator of Trauerses Booke hath quite omitted the wordes which I haue alleadged and all the rest that tendeth to that purpose euen seuenteene lines together So as if you see but the Englishe Booke you shall not finde so much as one steppe whereby you might suspect that euer Maister Trauerse hadde carried so harde a hande ouer the pretended Widdowes If the translator had receaued any Commission from the author to haue dealt in that sorte with his Booke yet it shoulde haue beene signified eyther in some Preface or in some note or by some means or other but to leaue such a matter out and to giue no generall warning of it I tell you plainely it was greate dishonesty and lewdenesse It were better for them to giue ouer their platformes in the plaine field then to seeke to maintaine them with such apparaunt falshoods Well let them take their course and yet all theyr sleightes will not preuaile But the Translator or Councellor or peruser one or moe or how many soeuer they were but all of them sottes if they thought by such their corruption to bolster vp the credite of theyr Widdowe Church-gouernours For it is euident in my iudgement that eyther most of their owne men doe beginne to come to Maister Trauerses opinion before mentioned or else that generally it is helde by them that the first ordaining of Widdowes was but for a time neuer meant to be an ordinary and perpetuall institution to continue for euer In Geneua as I saide there are no such Widdowes Scotlande in their approued Booke after the Geneua fashion doth not once thinke of them The Synodicall constitutions for the Presbyteriall platforme of all the French Churches doe make no mention of them The generall Councell of Hage and so all the Low Countries haue wholly forgotten them in their decrees and Canons In the platforme and newe Communion Booke which was offered once or twise to the high Courte of Parliament in Englande concerning these Widdowes there is nothing but silence Whereas also there hath beene great paines taken of later yeares amongest the Disciplinary brotherhoode and many meetinges and Synodes helde about another more particular draught of Discipline for this Realme till at the last they haue subscribed vnto it to bee a necessary platforme for all places and times yet you shall not finde that they haue spoken so much as one word of those Widdowes Whereuppon I conclude that their cause is desperate and so I leaue both them and their patrons with all their contrarieties vncertainties and wranglings about them and will come to the consideration of another materiall point vz. what charge this Consistoriall deuise doth bring with it to euerie parish CHAP. 20. Of the charge to bee imposed vpon euery parish by meanes of the pretended Eldership BY the common account of our disciplinarie deuises there are diuers ecclesiasticall persons to be maintained in euerie Parish Nowe there is but one in most places the Parson or the Vicar and God knoweth in manie parishes their intertainment is full bare But admit of the Consistoriall Senate in euery parish and then consider howe they shall bee charged First the current assertion is That in euerye Congregation there must bee a Pastor but the learned Discourser sayth there should bee two at the least Then they must haue a Doctor And for Elders they maie bee moe or fewer as the circuite of the Parish is

then you perceiue what Bezaes distinction meaneth with what good discretion both hee and his followers will needs make two Courts of that which was but one It is a very great maruel that any wise men should insist vpon these so apparant and childish fooleries In all the Courtes I thinke in the world since there haue beene anie the same that were Iudges of the lawe were Iudges likewise to trie the fact except it be in England And yet heere also euen in the triall of factes by twelue men we haue not two Courts for one matter but all the euidence witnesses and whatsoeuer else that doth appertaine for the finding out of the fact are brought before the Iudges of the law They sift and examine euerie point and circumstance that so the Iurie may bee fully informed and they are indeede the chiefe directors as it is meete in the whole matter And as it is and hath beene in all the worlde so it was in all the Courtes appointed either by Moses or by King Iehosophat in Iewrie It is true that all difficulties that did rise amongst the Iudges of inferior Courts in the country whether they were of law or facts and likewise all appellations from lower Courts did belong to the high Court at Ierusalem to bee heard and determined But doth that proue one Court to bee two Nay it is most apparant that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the Iewes Synedria they may challenge to themselues aswell the ciuill gouernement of the common-wealth as the ecclesiasticall of the church For so was the forme of gouernmēt then according to the testimonies of scripture of all the Iewes the Rabbines the Talmudists Iosephus others And I greatly doe suspect it that in time they will begin to claime it I find them so wauering and vncertaine in this matter As yet fi● they cannot abide to heare of it But obserue them how they stagger Beza in his booke against Erastus whereunto hee himselfe and seuenteene other Ministers of Geneua subscribed and which was the booke indeed that Erastus did confute both he they all of them were in doubt of this point An verò ciuilem aliquam cōērtionem habuerit ex iure ecclesiasticum illuà apud Iudaeos syned●ion definire vix possumus habuisse tamen posterioribus saltem temporibus negare nec si velimus possumus c. We can scarcely define whether the ecclesiasticall Eldership amongst the Iewes had any authoritie of right to vse ciuill punishments that it had at the least in the later times if we would denie it we cannot It is very well said And then I trust it will be confessed that as long as that authoritie continued hee had beene a fond man that should but once haue dreamed of the former distinction of making one Court two vz. the one of fact and the other of law and of dealing in ciuill causes ecclesiastically or I know not how Yea saith Beza but though they had such authoritie probabile est it is probable that it was procured ambitione maximorum pontificum by the ambition of the high priests How like you this When he is so pressed both by scriptures and with other authoritie that hee cannot chuse but confesse the point in question see how substantially he would seem to auoide it with his Theologicall demonstration Probabile est But that I doe the man no iniurie hee hath an other shift of descant to helpe himselfe herein Though they had any such authoritie exiure by the law saith he yet Hoc nihil ad nos It doth not concerne vs. Why if the same pollicie that the Iewes had bee continued by Christ in his Church how commeth it to passe that this doth nothing concerne vs It is abrogated Belike euen as much and as little of the pollicie must continue as is in force at Geneua But who did abrogate it Christ. Where When hee said Reges gentium dominantur eis vos autem non sic The kinges of the nations beare rule ouer them but it shall not be so with you They seeme to bee much beholden to this peece of scripture it serueth them vnto so many purposes But if they presume in this sort vpon the continuall fauour of it certainly it will leaue them when they least suspect it If the Iewes Eldership had to deale in ciuill causes that Christ had pu●posed to haue continued that form of gouernment in his Church in all pointes sauing in that he would haue said thus The priests of the Iewes did beare rule ouer them and had to deale in ciuill causes but it shall not be so with you It is to bee wondred ar that Beza should content himselfe with such vnlikely so very improbable conceites But it seemeth that vpon some better aduisement with himself and his fellowe subscribers they grewe all of them ashamed of these shiftes And therefore in his booke of excommunication which hee lately published hee is become in some sort another man Now both he his said felow-Ministers are out of doubt Ex clarissimis testimoniis By most clear testimonies that the authority which the priests had in ciuill causes was gotten by bribes Ex licentia iurisdictionis perturbatione through the libertie and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions which confusion Christus nunquam approbanit Christ neuer approued Ah very well though they haue turned ouer an other lease and for Probabile est do bragge of most cleare testimonies yet concerning Christs wordes they are gone backward For his commandement Vos autem non sic is now turned as you see into Nunquam approbauit which carrieth with it no other force than is ascribed to a negatiue collection But for all their most cleare testimonies he must haue better eyes than mine that can discerne any thing by them sauing their inconstancie and that there is cause to suspect therby as I said that when their credites are increased they will not greatly sticke to breake the bounds of their said distinctions deale as well with matters of fact as of law For els besides all the premisses what meaneth this new ground of Diuinitie published of late in print to the worlde from Geneua Ciuiles quoque lites antequam Christiani essent magistratus vt verisimile est ex Apostolica doctrina amicè citra vllum ferè strepitum componebantur The ciuill contentions before there were any Christian magistrates were compounded as it is likely according to the Apostles doctrine by the Elderships friendly and without any suites of law So as now if this question were once determined whether that may bee lawful when there is a Christian magistrate that is lawfull to bee doone when there is none there should as you see bee no more suites in law for ciuill causes in the lande their Elderships haue intituled themselues vnto them and ingrossed them all by right into their handes You will say it is true that they haue done so indeede if