Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
that he had conspired with the Babilonians their mortall enimyes and layd to his charge that he was goyng to them when he was going to Beniamin Io. Whitgifte Who is so blynde as he that will not sée Doe they not in plaine wordes saye That the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen are preaching of the worde purely ministring the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline c Is not their whole drifte in the Admonition to proue That neither the worde is preached purely nor the Sacramentes sincerely ministred c. in this Chnrche of Englande and what doe T. C. willuigly peruerteth the words of y e Answere I otherwyse reporte of them be not my wordes playne where doe I affirme that they shoulde saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preaching and ministring the Sacramentes But let the Reader consider my wordes and accordingly iudge of your plaine dealing Where I write y t they in effect say the Church of England is voyde of these I am sure you will referre these to that whiche went before that is preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline c. neither can you otherwise doe thoughe you woulde wrest my wordes neuer so violently and therefore that which I reporte of them is that they say this Church of England neither hath the worde purely preached nor the sacramentes sincerely ministred c. I make no greate difference betwixte purely and truely neyther dothe it followe Purely and truely that the worde of God is truely preached alwayes when the truth is preached For as a man maye doe Iusta not Iustè lust thyngs and yet not iustly so maye the truthe be preached and yet not truely A man maye doe that whiche is iuste vnwittingly or for gayne or for pleasure or for malice but then he dothe it not iustly Quid non ex babitu animo Euen so a man maye preache the true worde of God of affection of contention ambition for profite c. but then he dothe not preache it truely So that your distinction betwixt purely and truely is to no purpose Neyther dothe Saint Paule helpe you anye thyng at all but is cleane centrarye 1. Phi. vers 18. vnto you for in the ▪ 18. verse of the firste Chapter to the Philip. these be hys wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ c. whych in the Bible Printed at Geneua is thus translated VVhat then yet Christe is preached all manner wayes whether it be vnder a pretence or sincerely So you sée that there is no difference made betwixte sincerely and truely for the Greeke worde signifyeth truely And Maister Beza in hys notes vpon the same Chapter and. 16. verse expoundyng 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not purely saythe thus Non pu o scilicet animo quùm alio qui pura Beza esset doctrina to weete not wyth a pure mynde seeyng that otherwyse the doctrine is pure so that these aduerbes purely and truely in this place are referred not to the doctrine but to mynde of hym that teacheth ▪ I woulde wyshe that bothe you and others woulde cease from drawyng the Scriptures to youre phantasyes and affections That this is one reason of the Papistes to proue that we are not the Churche bycause we haue no true ministerie I maruell you can be ignorant séeyng there is nothing oft er in their mouthes Whether the authors of the Admonition reason in lyke manner or no tell me when you haue well consydered these wordes of theirs in the Epistle to the Reader Eyther must we haue a right-ministery of God and a ryghte gouernment of hys Churche accordyng to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or eise there can be no ryghte Religion Likewise when you haue wythoute parcialitie viewed the reste of their booke Truely I thinke him to be more than blynde that séeth not thys to be theyr kynde of reasoning Their meanyng is playne and the seconde Admonition maketh it plainer howsoeuer you woulde séeme to colour and cloake the matter for what other meanyng can it haue to saye that we haue no ryghte ▪ Religion and to speake so bitterly agaynst the whole forme of the Churche and the moste of suche things as be in the same I doe beléeue certaynely that there is some Papisticall practitioners among you neyther is it straunge for so conspired they wyth the Anabaptistes also as I haue declared and the Anabaptistes hated them as muche as you and pretended the sunplicitie of the worde of God as muche as you and bothe in pretence of zeale of puritie of lyfe and other qualities for the moste parte were equall vnto you And thoughe the Prophete Ieremie were vniustly accused yet doth not that improue any thing that I haue sayde for they are not the Prophete Ieremye neither in person office or cause neither yet haue I accused them vniustly in any thing Of the election of Ministers Tract 3. Of the triall of Ministers both in learnyng and conuersation Chap. 1. the first diuision Admonition The first is this For whereas in the olde Church atrial was had (l) Acts. 1. 11. Acts. 6. 3. 1. Tim. 3. 7. 8. Tit. 1 6. both of their abilitie to enstruct and of their godly conuersation also nowe by the letters commendatorie of some one man noble or other tag and rag learned and vnlearned of the basest (m) 1. Re. 12. 31. sorte of the people to the slaunder of the Gospell in the (n) Rom. 2. 14. mouthes of the aduersaries are freely receiued Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 36. It it true that in the olde Church tryall was had of their abilitie to instruct and of their godly conuersation But the place in the margent alleaged out of the firste Chapter of the Actes of the Apostles maketh nothing for that purpose beyng therein no mention at all of any tryall made eyther of learning or maners but onely of presenting two and of praying and casting of lottes And M. Clauine in his Institutions sayth plainely that out of this place of the Actes and example there can be no certaine rule gathered of electing and chosing Ministers for as that ministerie was extraordinarie so was the calling also Reade M. Caluine and you shall soone see how little this place so ofte in the margent quoted maketh for that purpose for the which it is quoted T. C. Pag. 23. Sect. 4. 5. Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. It maketh for the purpose which is alleaged out of the firste of the Actes to proue that there ought to be tryall of those which are chofen to the ministerie for when S. Peter sayth that such a one must be chosen as hath bene continually conuersant with our sauiour Christ and from the beginning of his preaching vntill the day wherin he ascended into heauen he ment nothing (a) Surelye that was not so much ment as that he might be a fitte witnesse of the doyngs of
in such matters whereof you are a member What M. Bullinger hath in any other place consented vnto I knowe not but certayne it is that these be his owne woordes And that when he writte them he was of the same opinion that we are at this tyme in this Church of England Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 2. Caluine in lyke manner writing vpon the fourth to the Galatians Caluine doth not disallow this kinde of obseruing dayes his wordes be these VVhen as holynesse is attributed to dayes vvhen as one day is discerned from an other for religion sake vvhen dayes are made a peece of diuine vvorship then dayes are vvickedly obserued c. But vvhen vve haue a difference of dayes laying no burden of necessitie on mens consciences vve make no difference of dayes as though one vvere more holy than an other vve put no religion in them nor vvorshipping of God but onely vve obserue them for order and concorde sake so that the obseruing of dayes vvith vs is free and vvithout all superstition And agayne vpon the. 2. to the Colloss But some vvill say that vve as yet haue some kinde of obseruing dayes I ansvvere that vve obserue them not as though there vvere any religion in them or as though it vvere not then lavvfull to labour but vvee haue a respect of pollycie orders not of dayes And in his Institutions vpō the fourth commaundement Neyther do I so speake of the seuenth daye that I vvould binde the Church onely vnto it for I do not condemne those Churches vvhich haue other solemne dayes to meete in so that they be voyde of superstition vvhich shall be if they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluine at the practise of him and the Churche where he lined was and i to admitte no one holy day besides the Lordes day so can it not be shewed out of any parte of his workes as I thinke that he approued those holy dayes which are nowe in question He sayeth in deede in his Institution that he will not condemne those Churches which vse them no more do we the Churche of Englande neyther in this nor in other thinges whiche are meete to be reformed For it is one thing to mistike an other thing to condemne and it is one thing to condemne some thing in the Churche and an other to condemne the Churche for it And as for the places cited out of the Epistle to the Galatians and Collossians there is no mention of any holydayes eyther to Sainctes or to any other and it appeareth also that he defendeth not other Churches but the churche of Geneua and answereth not to those which obiecte against the keping of Sainctes dayes or any holydayes as they are called besides the Lordes daye but against those whiche woulde not haue the lordes day kepte still as a day of reste from bodily labour as it may appeare both by his place vpon the Collossians and especially in that which is alleaged out of his Institutions and that he meaneth nothing lesse than such holydayes as you take vpon you to detende it may appeare first in the place of the Collossians where he sayeth that the dayes of reste whiche are vsed of them are vsed for pollicie sake Nowe it is well knowne that as it is pollycie and a way to preserue the estate of thinges and to keepe them in a good continuance and successe that as well the beastes as the menne which labour sixe dayes should rest the seuenth so it tendeth to no pollicie nor wealth of the people or preseruation of good order that there shoulde be so many dayes wherein menne should cease from worke beyng a thing which breedeth idlenesse and consequently pouertie besides other disorders and vices which alwayes go in companie with idlenesse And in the place of his Institutions he declareth himselfe yet more playnely when he sayeth that those odde holydayes then are without superstition when they be ordeyned onely for the obseruing of discipline and order whereby he giueth to vnderstande that he would haue them no further holydayes than for the tyme which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the churche and that for the reste they should be altogither as other dayes free to be laboured in And so it appeareth that the holydayes ascribed vnto Sainctes by the seruice booke is a iuste cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe vnto the seruice booke Io. Whitgifte What soeuer M Caluines practise was in the Churche of Geneua yet in these places dothe his iudgement euidently appeare neyther doth a man alwayes vse that himselfe which he alloweth in an other for there may be circumstances to make that commendable in one place that is not so in an other He that condemneth the thing as vnlawfull muste also condemne the Churches that vse the same though not wholly yet in that poynt For as muche therefore as M. Caluine did not condemne other Churches for obseruing suche dayes it is a manifest argument that he condemned not the obseruing of those dayes in those Churches In déede it is one thing to mislike an other thing to condemne but he that maketh suche a sturre in the Churche for these matters as you do and that so disorderly can not be sayde onely to mislyke but also to condemne The place of M. Caluine out of the Epistle to the Galat. is not mente onely of the Lordes daye but of other dayes also obserued in other reformed Churches and in that place he maketh a generall answere as it were for them all as it is soone perceyued by suche as will reade that place He also that shall per vse his woordes vpon the seconde chapter to the Collossians shall finde the lyke sense in them In that he sayeth they be vsed for order and pollicie wee do not dissent from him but thinke so in lyke manner howbeit wée vnderstande as he doth Ecclesiasticall order and pollicie for in the wordes that go before the place to the Galatians he sayeth that the obseruing of dayes dothe also perteyne ad Regimen Ecclesiae to the gouernment Caluin in 4. Gal. of the Churche What better order and pollicie can there be than to haue certayne dayes appoynted wherein the people may reste from bodily labour to labour spiritually to heare the worde of God c. whiche M. Caluine called order and pollicie and not the externall rest of the Sabboth daye which is a commaundement of God and no constitution of the Churche neyther hath the Churche any respect to worldly pollicie in appoynting of Holydayes but to Ecclesiasticall pollicie whiche consisteth in hearing the wordes ministring the Sacramentes publike Prayers and other such lyke godly actions The place in his Institutions conuince all your shifting coniectures of mere follie for therein he playnely declareth his allowing in other Churches of o Holydayes than the
tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their
it excuse it from being a libell being not orderly in Parliament propounded but disorderedly I might say seditiously spread abroade in corners to the defamation of thys whole state and Church of England not to any reformation But to satisfye your desire that would so gladly know what a libell is I will tell A libell what it is you in few words An infamous libell is that that is written in verse or in prose to y t infamy slander of any man to y ◠which the author dare not set his name This is an infamous libel it most aptly agréeth to y ◠booke called an Admonition to y e Parliamēt So that by this definition your obiectiō also of y e booke of y e Apocalips of the epistle to the Hebrues is soone answered for al those bookes are not libells which are published without the authours name but those whiche are published to the infamy or slander of others to the which the authors dare not set their names An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets The third commeth of the same spirit that the secōd doth that is The libellers fitly compared to the Pharisies of the spirit of arrogancie and malice for it compareth godly wise zelous learned bishops to idolatrous Priestes to Pharisies but indeede the conditions qualities of the Phariseis do most aptly agree with y e authors of these Libels their adherēts for the Pharisies did al that they did to be seene of men sought the commēdation Description of a Pharisie of the common people as appeareth Math. 6. 23. so do they The Pharisies when they fasted disfigured their faces these walking in the streates hang downe their heads looke austerely and in company sigh muche and seldome or neuer laugh the Pharisies strayned out a gnat and swallowed downe a camell And these men think it an heynous offence to weare a cap or a surplisse but in slaundering and backbyting their brethren in rayling on them by libels in contemning of superiors and discrediting such as be in authoritie to be short in disquieting the Churche and state they haue no conscience The Phariseis separated themselues from the common sort of men as more holy and contemned the poore Publicanes as sinners And therefore some learned interpreters thinke that they be called Pharisaei quasi segregati quòd vitae sanctimonia à vulgi moribus vita separati essent non aliter Fost rus in dictionar hebraico atque monachi quos Chartusianos vocant They be called Phariseis as separated and deuided from the commō sort in holynes of life much like vnto the Monkes which be called Carthusians And Iosephus saith that they were called Phariseis bycause they seemed to be more holy than other and more Lib. 1 cap. 2. de bello iudaico Lib. antiquit Tom. 2. lib. 18. cap. 2. Tom. 2. lib. 17. cap. 3. cunningly to expound the law Also he saythe thys to be one propertie of theirs that whatsoeuer their owne reason perswadeth them Id sequuntur pertinaciter that they stubbornly follow Agayne he sayth that they be astutum hominum genus arrogans interdum Regibus quoque infestum c. A subtile kynde of men arrogant and sometimes enimies to kings and rulers These men separate themselues also from the congregation and will communicate with vs neither in prayers hearing the word nor sacraments they contemne and despise all those that be not of their sect as polluted and not worthy to be saluted or kept company with and therefore some of them meeting their old acquaintance being godly preachers haue not only refused to salute them but spit in their faces wishing the plague of God to light vpon them and saying that they were damned and that God had taken his spirit from them and all this bycause they did weare a cappe wherefore when they talke of Phariseis they plucke themselues by the noses But Lord what a straunge time is this when such as they be dare thus boldly publish libells against their superiours for mainteining and executing good and godly lawes The conclusion of this preface is a stoute presumptuous and malapert threatning in my opinion not to be suffered But howsoeuer your pen and tongue walketh yet I pray you holde your handes or else c. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. 2. Whereas M. Doctor compareth vs with the Phariseys and saythe we do all to be seene of men and that we hold downe our heads in the streates and straine at a gn t swallowing downe a Camell bycause they are in all mens knowledge I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those things Where he saith we seldome or neuer laugh it is not therefore that we thinke that it is not lawfull to laugh but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches and of the ruines of ours with the heauie iudgements of the Lord which hang ouer vs ought to turne our laughing into weeping besides that a man may laugh although he shew not his teeth And so Ierome Ierome ad Marcell ▪ in effect answereth in an epistle which he wrote where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation that M. Doctor doth he saith bycause we do not laugh with open mouth therefore we are counted sadde And where he saith we separate our selues from all congregations and are ennimies to prince and that we would seeme to be holyer thā other these and such like slaunders are answered before And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers or spit in any mans face or wish the plague of God to light vpon them or say that they be damned we defend not nor allow of any such behauioure And it is vnreasonable that the fault of one should be imputed to so many and to those which do as much mislike of it as M. Doctor himselfe And what needed M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands where do they in a worde offer to strike Belike hys tongue is his owne and therefore he speaketh whatsoeuer he listeth Io. Whitgifte I shewe how much more aptely the qualities and conditions of the Phariseys agrée to you and to your sect than they can doe to suche as the authors of those pamplets call phariseys I know you can both laugh iest and give when you are among your selues and so coulde the Phariseys doo but I speake of youre behauior in open places and before suche as do not so well know you It is vnlyke that you mourne for the ruines or calamities of any Churches séeing that you séeke with might and mayne the confusion of this by stirring vp schismes and contentions in it That which I speake of separating your selues from the congregation c. is well knowne to be true in a number of you and the contemptuous behauiour of some of you pretending moste zeale towardes some of vs argueth what spirite you are of and what your
the beginning wearie of turning vp this (6) Note his mo est manerly speaches dung and refuting so baine and friuolous sclanders with out all shewe and face of truthe and therfore I will be briefe in the rest Io. Whitgifte I speake not here of the doctrine of the Anabaptists which is the certaine note wherby they may be knowne but of their other qualities and manner of talke and Preaching The wordes be M. Bullingers they be not mine The argumentes framed be yours and neither his nor mine Your disciples magnifie you bicause your vsuall talke both publike and priuate is They seke not the reformatiō but the diffamation of ministers against the Ministers of the Church against their calling against their preaching against their life c. which you doe not to reforme them for you doe it in their absence and to the people but to deface them and to discredite them not to promote the Gospell which they preache as diligently and syncerely as you doe but to bring them into hatred with the people whereby you might the rather preuaile in your enterprises not to reforme their manners for they maye compare wyth you in all kynde of honestie and dutie but to erpresse your malice and wrathe for that whiche Zuinglius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anabap. in Elench contra Anabap. speaketh of them It is melancholie and wrathe not true zeale of whiche they glorie maye be truly verified of you and thereof let thys your booke be iudge Nowe if I say that in this poynte you agrée with the Anabaptistes I doe not therefore straighteway conclude that you are Anabaptistes but thys I conclude that you are not for suche inuemues to bée estéemed as more pure in deede than your brethren nor they thorough suche slaunde os speaches of yours to bée discredited bycause herein you speake or practise nothyng agaynste the true Ministers of the woorde of God but that whyche the Anabaptistes haue doone in the selfe same forme and manner before you And that these be qualities woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes and suche as procéede in lyke manner it may appeare not onely by this obseruation of M. Buliinger but of other learned and Godlie menne also that haue written agaynste them and giuen notes of their qualities Zuinglius in his Booke before named sayth That they speake euyll bothe Ibidem Why the 〈◊〉 speake euill of magistrate and 〈◊〉 Idem in les of the Ciuill Magistrate and of the ministers of the Churche that if at anye tyme eyther of them accordyng to theyr office reproue them then they streyghtwaye saye that therefore they bee enimyes vnto them bycause they tell them of theyr faultes And in his Ecclesiast he sayeth thus of them They so slaunder reuyle and backebyte the Ministers of the woorde and of the Churche that they oughte to be suspected and hated of all Godlye menne euen for theyr slaunderous and curssed speakyng But theyr ende and purpose is by thys meanes to wynne credite vnto them selues and to discredite suche as sette them selues agaynste them and detecte theyr erroures The lyke saying he hathe in hys booke De. Baptismo To the same effecte also speaketh Gastius of them in his Booke De exordio erroribus Catabap Gastiu where among other sentences he hath thys Theyr talke vttereth nothyng else but reprehension of the Ministers of the worde and libertie in externall things Now iudge I praye you whether this hath ben a qualitie woorthie to bée obserued in the Anabaptistes or no I doe not speake agaynste suche as modestly and accordyng to the rule of the Apostle 1. Tunoth 5. doo reproue any but agaynste those that haue nothing else in theyr mouthes but inuectiues agaynste the Ministers of the woorde obseruyng neyther place tyme nor anye other circumstances whome I still say in this poynt to be fitly compared to the Anabaptists Nowe whether it bée my Logike or yours that you gyue a taste of in thys placelette the learned Reader iudge to whome also I committe the tryall of thys spyrite of yours whyche bursteth out in suche vnséemely manner vpon the consyderation of your owne deuysed argumentes to féede your contempte and disdayne with In déede if you make argumentes where I make none and if you frame them as it pleaseth you no meruayle it is though you make a long booke and cause your Reader to beleeue that my Logicke is as simple as you woulde haue it But deale with mée vprightly and honestly and then set downe my vnskilfulnesse and spare not as I trust you woulde doo to the vttermost in euery poynt if you could séeing that you doe it where there is no occasion at all offered vnto you by mée but imagined of youre selfe Well let these quarelles goe more méete to be among boyes than among men Gratia Dei sum quod sum neyther haue I any thing but that whiche I haue receyued of him from whom commeth all good things Bothe of the election of ministers and of excommunication what I thynke I will declare God willing in their proper places The woordes here by me alledged as I haue saide are Master Bullingers and they be truly spoken and to good purpose as there it shall appeare In the meane while I referre you for that of the Magistrate in electing of ministers to the 87. and 88. leaues of that his Booke Aduersus Anabap. and for that of excommunication to the. 233. and. 234. leafe of the same Booke You denye that you saye there is no lawfull or no ordinarye callyng of Mynisters in Englande whych is a strange hearyng to mée for wherevnto then tendeth all that whych is wrytten in your Booke touching the electing and calling of Ministers or F st Admonition contrarie to T. C. that which is written in the fyrst Admonition Folio 9 ▪ where they say in playne termes that wee haue neyther a ryghte Ministerie of God nor a righte gouernement of hys Churche And Folio 34. 35. 36. c Folio 157. where they saye that thys prescripte forme of Seruice vsed in this Churche of Englande mayntayneth an vnlawfull ▪ Ministerie or that whyche is so bytterly spoken agaynst the Booke of orderyng ▪ Ministers and Deacons whyche they call the Pontificall But you saye that he may be lawfully called whyche is not ordinarilye I woulde haue you to speake playnely Is our calling to the Ministerie here in England lawful but not ordinarie If it be lawfull then is it not agaynste the woorde of God neyther is there any Lawe in the Scriptures to the contrarie as you woulde make vs to beléeue But truly I thynke that you were not here well aduysed or else haue you some suttle meaning for you adde immediately that there be places in Englande where the Ministers are called by theyr Parishes c. So that I suppose you meane that in some Parishes of Englande there is a lawfull callyng of Ministers if it bée so then is it not withstanding truly sayde that you
notorious for what do either they or you but deface euen the best learned and wisest of such as withstand you thinking none sufficiently learned but yourselues and your adherents For the number of sufficient ministers in France able to preach in the time of the crosse I will not take vppon me to define any thing yet haue I talked with some wise godly and learned preachers of that countrie such as had good cause to know the state of that Church touching that matter and truly for any thing that I can learne of them you haue ouershot your selfe in reckening at the least 14. hundreth But I am not curious in matters not apperteyning vnto me and I write but of credible reporte God be thanked for the number that they had or haue howe many or howe fewe soeuer they are Touching the number of preachers throughout England I cannot write any certaintie but of this Uniuersitie bycause I haue some experience you shall giue me leaue to speake as earnestly in truly commending of it as you haue done in vntruly and vnkindly defacing and slaundering it The number of knowne preachers which this vniuersitie hath bredde since the beginning of the Quéenes Maiesties reygne to this time of the yeare of our Lord Anno. 1573. are at the least 450. besides those that haue bin called to that office after their departure from hēce and are not yet knowne to me The number of preachers that be now in this Uniuersitie remayning is 102. and no doubt but God will encrease the number of them dayly more and more Although The contentions in the Church is an hindrance to the profession of diumitie in the vniuersities it must be confessed that the factions and tumults which you and some others haue made in the Churche do discourage a great number from the ministerie causeth many to contemne it and thinke the calling to be vnlawfull and therefore to absteyne from it Moreouer I know by experience that some of you deuise and practise by all meanes possible to styrre vp contention in this Uniuersitie to disswade men from the ministerie to bring such as be sober wise learned and godly preachers into contempt and to make a confusion and diuide euery Colledge within itselfe But howsoeuer hitherto you haue preuayled as you haue preuayled to much yet I trust you shall neuer throughly bring to passe that which you desire And I doubt not but that your vnduetifull vnciuill and vncharitable dealing in this your booke your many errours and foule absurdities conteyned in the same hath so detected you that honest discréete quiet and godly learned men will no more be withdrawen by you and such as you are to any such schisme or cōtention in the Church but rather bend them selues against the common aduersarie and séeke with hart and mouth to build vp the walles of Ierusalem whiche you haue broken downe and to fill vp the Mynes that you haue digged by craft and subteltie to ouerthrow the same And howsoeuer some will still be way wardly disposed yet I doubt not but that if such as be in authoritie will do their duties they may by conuenient discipline either be kept within the bonds of modestie or else remoued from this place wherein of all other places they may do most harme For the Innes of Court what they would do I know not howbeit I think very few haue gon from this place thither whiche had euer any purpose in them to enter into the ministerie And surely from that place where I am I haue not knowne any go to the Innes of Court in whome there hathe appeared any kind of inclination to the ministerie What store of fit preachers those Innes would yeld if your Church were framed I know not but I thinke that some of thē would not refuse the spoile of this I doubt not but that there are many in the Innes of Courte well affected in religion God continue them and encrease the number of them and giue them grace to take héede that they be not seduced by ouermuch credulitie in themselues and pretensed zeale in others What Galene and Iustinian would do may be doubted for though both Galene and Iustinian haue forsaken our ministerie yet do they kéepe such liuings as they had in the respect of the same and are so farre from yelding of tenthes that they can be well content to receiue tenthes Chap. 1. the tenth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 37. Sect. 1. Touching letters commendatorie of some one mannoble or other Letters commendatorie of wise and godly men it may be that the parties which giue these letters be of that zeale learning and godlinesse that their particular testimonie ought to be better credited than some other subscribed with an hundred handes And I thinke there is both noble men and other who may better be trusted in that point than a great number of parishes in Englande which consist of rude and ignorant men easily moued to testify any thing And in many places for the most part or altogither drowned in Papistrie I know no reason to the cōtrary and I see no scripture alledged why one learned godly and wise mans testimonie may not be reteiued in such a case and yet the booke expresseth no such thing The b oke quireth due examination of life and learning but requireth due examination of learning and sufficient testimonial of conuersation and giueth libertie to any one particular man to obiect any crime against any suche as are to be ordered willeth that the partie accused be kept from the ministerie vntill he haue cleared himselfe of the crimes obiected If tag and rag be admitted learned and vnlearned it is the fault of some not of all nor of the law And if they were called and elected according to your fantasie there would some creepe in as euill as any be now and woorse too T. C. Page 26. Lin. 8. It is not denyed but the testimonie that a noble man whiche professeth the truth dothe gyue ought to be weighed according to his degree and place which he hath in the common welth but where you thinke that the testimonie of one wise man learned and godly is sufficient warrant to proceede to an election of a Minister you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paule vsed who when he admitted Timothie into his company to be a companion in his iourney to cut off all occasion of euill speach receyued him not*but vpon commendation of the brethren both in Lystra Act. 1 and Iconium Io. Whitgifte I know that the testimonie of many godly and wise men is of more weight than the testimonie of one only but this is no answer to that which I haue said The place of Paule and Timothie Act. 16. declareth how well Timothie was thought of and commended vnto Paule but it followeth not that Paule would not also haue receyued him if he had bin commended vnto him but by some one Howsoeuer it is this your
other generally to all ministers Oflicences to preache Chap. 3. Admonition And if any be o well disposed to preache in their owne charges they may not withoute my Lordes licence Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 53. Sect. 1. 2. 3. YOu here finde fault that if a preacher be disposed to preache in Not to preac without li ▪ cence his cure he may not do it without my Lordes licence Where the word of God is professed Christian magistrates gouern there it is mete that no man should take vpon him any function except he be by the Magistrate to whom it doth appertein thervnto admitted And forasmuch as there be always in the church hypocrites heretikes schismatikes other euil disposed persons whiche study for nothing more than to disquiet the state of the church to occupie the people with their factions it is necessarie that none should be admitted to preache in any place without he be thervnto licenced by the Bishop who ought to haue a diligent care in that matter I suppose you are not of that mynd that men maye nowe in this Church vnder Christian magistrates preach without licence it hath always bin the opinion of wise learned godlie men that since the Apostles tyme none wer ordinarily called to the office of preaching but such as were called of God by man only Anabaptists and some other secte of heretikes teache the contrarie T. C. Pag. 51. Sect. 8. 9. Pag. 52. Sect. 2. What dealing is this to bring mē in suspition of y t which they neuer thought of as though there were any word y t founded to this y e a man should put himself into the office of preaching without the approbation of those (*) A doubtful saying men to whom it doth perteyne Their complaint is that those which are ordeyned Pastors and therfore to preach can not do it without further licence as if a man shoulde be charged to doe a thing forthwith and then he that chargeth him bindeth him hand foote that he can not do it vnlesse he will lose him The bishops inhable him to teach point him a place to teach in yet they wil not let him teath ▪ vnlesse he haue a further licence It h be an heretik or schismatike or suspected of any such thing ▪ why is he admitted or being admitted why is he suffred to be so much as a reader n y ◠churche nd bicause you could not answer this therfore you set vp a fansie of yours to confute And thus you fight without an 〈◊〉 and you make triumphes where there is no victorie They wil say vnto you y t not only vnder a godly magistrate but not in y e time of persecution any man ought to ake vpon him any function in y e church ▪ vnlesse he be ther vnto called by mē except he haue a wonderful calling which is rare must be iligently examined by them which haue it 〈◊〉 nder pretence of the spirite of God whom they make author of their calling it fall out y e 〈◊〉 be but their own he long affection that hath thrust thē in so far they are from the frensy of Anaba tists which you by a confutation of y e which they neuer affirmed would seeme to staine them with Io. Whitgifte This Repl e cōsisteth partly of equiuocations partly of 〈◊〉 suppositiōs For where you say y e no mā shuld put himself into the office of preaching w tout the approbation of those men to whō it doth apertein you speak ambiguously therfore you must explicate what you mean by those to whō it doth apertein whether y e people seniors as you cal them or y e bishops or y e ciuil Magistrate or such to whō y e ciuil Magistrat doth cōmit y e iudging of such matters For y e Auabaptistes confesse y e they must be called of their churches but they deny y e authoritie of the ciuil magistrat herein the authoritie of such also as he doth 〈◊〉 for y t end purpose Again you here suppose y t no man may preach out of his owne cure therfore being once admitted o preach there he nedeth no further licence ▪ Likewise you 〈◊〉 suppose that none may be admitted to preache except he haue 〈◊〉 to be hort that 〈◊〉 ▪ heretikes schismatikes may be known foorthwith 〈◊〉 being suspected by and by remoued out of the ministerie ▪ all which suppositio s bēe vntiue and therfore this Replis full of greate absuraities Their meaning is playne that though there be iuste cause why the Bishoppe should inhibite them from preachyng bothe for theyr contentions and also for their errours yet woulde they preache whether the Byshoppe wyll or no for the case is theyr owne They were admytted to preache in theyr cures and elsewhere so long as they vsed them selues modestlye quietly and taught sounde doctrine but after they began to deuide the Churche and make contention in it they were restrayned from preachyng vntill suche tyme as vpon their submission and reformation they shoulde be there vnto admitted agayne hinc illae lachrymae this is the matter and hereto you answere ne gry quidem Of the apparell of Ministers Tract 7. The causes why they refuse the apparell examined Chap. 1. the fyrst Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. 3. The cappe the surplis and tippet are not the greatest matters we striue for whych notwithstandyng hath bene enformed to the Churches beyonde sea to the ende that the iudgementes of some myghte be the easlyer had agaynst vs. Howbeit we thinke it an attyre vnmeete for a minister of the Gospell to weare and the Surplis especially more than the other two bycause suche hurtefull Ceremonies are so muche more daungerous as they doe approche nearer the seruice ▪ or worship of God Io. Whitgifte Yet in the beginning suche was youre pretence neyther was there any thing else that you contended for as it is well knowne to all men that had to deale with you or hearde of you I am certainly perswaded that if the Churches beyonde sea did fully vnderstande your procéeding together with the state of thys Churche of Englande that they woulde as bitterly write againste you and as willingly condemne you as euer they dyd the Anabaptistes But to your reasons agaynste the apparell Chap. 1. the second Diuision T. C. Pag. 52. Sect. 4. The causes why wee are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hande * This assertion is contrary to your practise Monumentes of idolatrie may be vsed if they haue any profite bycause that we thinke any pollution so to sticke to the things themselues as that the wearyng of them had any suche power to pollute and make vncleane the vsers of them Neyther yet only bicause the Papistes haue superstitiously vsed them but bycause they hauing bene abhominably avnsed by them haue no vse nor profyte in those thinges or endes wherein and wherevnto they are nowe vsed And further that
Priests and euites And I maruell that you wil denie this especially seing that you would de vs to the ciu ll law of Moses wherof this is a portion You adde that by all these princes ouer euerye tribe and fainilie as by the prince of the whole land God did as it were c. all this maketh nothing against our 〈◊〉 xcept y u will also take away the Prince of the whole land ▪ As this order among the Iewes was obserued in al tribes so is it now in al Prouinces and Diocesse This is but slender 〈◊〉 ou bring and y t not to the purpose for the A swere speaketh of na es and you driue it to offices Indeede you almost in no place reason ad Idem which is a maniiest argumente that you are but a shiftyng cauiller Chap. 4. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93. Line 13. Moreouer these orders and pollicies touching the distribution of the offices of the Leuites and priests and touching the appoin ment of their gouernours were done of Dauid by the * aduise 2. Chro. 19. of the Prophets Gad and Nathan which receiued of the Lord by commaundement that whyche they deliuered vnto Dauid And if so be that it can be shewed that Archbishops and Archdeacons came into the church by any commaundement of the Lord then this allegation hath some force but now being not only not 〈◊〉 but also as I haue shewed forbydden euery man doth see that this reason hath no place but serueth to the vtter ouerthrow of the Archbyshop and Archdeacon For if Dauid beyng suche a notable personage and as it were an Angell of God durste not take vpon him to bring into the Church any orders or pollicies not onely not againste the worde of God but not without a precise word and commaundement of God who shal dare be so bold as to take vpon him the institution of the chiefe office of the Church and to alter the pollicie that God hath appointed by his seruantes the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You runne away with the matter as though all were cleare when as it is not so You affirme y t Dauid did apoint these orders pollicies touching y e distribution of the offices of the leuites Priests c. by the eduise of Gad and Nathan the prophets of God And for proof hereof you quote in the margent 2. Chron. 19. where there is not one word for your purpose or signifying any suche thing In déed in the 2. chro 29. there is affirmed the lyke thing But my L. of Sarisburie hath answered you that such negatiue reasons are very weake And if you wil denie it to be a negatiue reason from authoritie yet can you not denie but that it is as féeble an argument as almost can be For what if Dauid did appoynt these orders touching the distribution of the offices of the leuites priests c. doth it therfore follow that the church at no tyme may appointe suche offices as shall be thought méete for the gouernment of it according to the tyme places and persons where haue you learned of a singular example to make a generall rule or to frame an argumente ex solis particularibus In the. 2. Chro. 19. which you haue quoted in the margent there is a not able place Scripture alleaged against himselfe against you for there expresse mention is made that Iehosaphat set in Ierusalem of the Leuites and of the Priests c. for the iudgemente and cause of the Lorde and made Amariah the Priest chiefe ouer them neyther were they Iudges for the citie 2. Chron. 19. of Ierusalem onely but for the whole countrey And yet we reade not of any commaundement vers 8. that Iehosaphat had so to do Chap. 4. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 93 Sect. 1. And where the Bishop sayth it is knowne and confessed that ther wanted many things to the persection of the Churche of the Iewes truly I doe not knowe nor can not consesse that that Churche wanted (*) This is directly contrary to your selfe any thing to the perfection of that estate which the Lord would haue them be in vntill the comming of our sauioure Christ. And if there were any thing wanting it was not for wante of good lawes and pollicies whereof the question is but for wante of due execution of them which we speake not of Io. Whitgifte Conueniet nulli c. Nowe can he agrée with anye other man that dothe not agree with him selfe For before after you haue recyted diuers thinges lefte to the T. C. contrarie to himself order of that Churche of the Iewes for the whiche they had no expresse worde You saye that you wyll offer for one that I bring that we haue lefte to the order of the Pag. 22. Sec. 2. Churche to shewe that they had twenty whyche were vndecided by the expresse word of God And heere you saye that it wanted nothing to the perfection of that estate how you wyll reconcile your selfe I knowe not or whether it be your pleasure not to respecte your owne credite so that you may séeme to discredite that whyche that notable Byshop hathe spoken but that whyche I haue alleadged of Iehosaphat 2. Chro. 19. dothe manifestly iustifye my Lord of Sarisburies saying and condemneth youres For there it is to be séene that in matters of gouernment orders were appoynted which neyther were commaunded by any expresse commaundemente of God neyther yet expressed in the worde of God But of thys matter I haue spoken before Chap. 4 the. 14. Diuision The third Reason VVhere the substance of anything is most perfite there the accidents be most perfite but Tertia ratio the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 Religion was most perfit in the primitiue Churche and yet there was then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo. The Ansvvere of the Byshop First this 〈◊〉 is not proued for it may vvell be doubted vvhether the Eius solutio ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 substance hath euermore most porfit accidentes And againe the substance of Religion is the same novve that it vvas then the difference if there be any standeth in accidentes and not in substance Therefore thys 〈◊〉 of substance and accidentes vvas not needefull In the primitiue Church God raised vp Apostles and Prophets and gaue them povver ex as the gifte of tongues the gift of healing the gifte of gouernment c. In place vvher of he hath novv giuen Vniuersities Scholes Byshops 〈◊〉 shops c. But you say there vvas then no Archbyshop So may you say that before king Saul there vvas no king in Israel So may you say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of late times there vvas neither Duke nor Earle in England So may you say 〈◊〉 the primitiue Church there was neither Deane nor person 〈◊〉 prebendarie And yet novv both in Ecclesiasticall and ciuill go 〈◊〉 these are thought necessarie Last of all vvhere you say there was no And by shop in the primitiue Church it is vvritten by many that S. Paul
occasion they may speake as I haue said in my Answer Chap. 3. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 2. Nowe if the speache be a true messenger of the hearte I perceyue master Doctor is of 〈◊〉 this mind that he would haue women preach in the Church of England at this time for he cannot denie and he also confesseth it sometimes that this is the time of necessitie and indeede it must be needes an extreme necessitie that driueth to make one man Pastor of two churches especially so farre distant that driueth to make men whiche are not able to teach ministers and diuers more things which are contrary to the word of God Therefore this being a time of necessitie by M. Doctors iudgement we ought to haue women to preach Besides this he sayth if neyther none other can or will preach that then women may preach but in the most churches of this realme there is none that eyther can or will preach therefore there and in those churches women at the leaste if they be able may preach the Gospell and consequently minister the sacraments Io. Whitgifte You wander from the matter and do but séeke occasion to quarel there is no such necessitie in this Church God be thanked as M. Doctor speaketh of for there is none in anye place or corner thereof that be ignorante of Christ or do not professe the name of Christ In all places they haue the scriptures red vnto them whiche conteine matter sufficient to saluation and therefore there is no cause why women should take vpon them to preach in the congregation neyther doth M. Doctor meane any such thing as you know very well but that it is your pleasure to dallie He meaneth In what time a womā may preach Christ. such places where all be infidells where they haue neither heard of Christ nor haue his word neither yet any other meanes to come by the knowledge of the same which is no where in this Church Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Women that may (h) 1. Co. 14. 34 1. Tim. 2. 11 not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and that in a priuate house Ansvver to the Admonition Pag 186. Sect. vlt. You say women that may not speake in a congregation may yet in time of necessitie minister the sacrament of baptisme and that in a priuate house And to proue that women may not speake in a congregation you quote 1. Cor. 14. 1. Ti. 2. whereas you should rather haue proued that women may not in time of necessitie minister baptisme for that is the question and not the other Women may speake in the congregation if necessary occasion do require as M. Caluin teacheth in his institutions Chap. 13. Sect. 32. T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 3. In the. 187. Page he citeth M. Caluine in the. 13. Chap. Section 32. to proue that women may teach wherein (*) An argument of your ignorance I maruell what he meaneth so to alleadge M. Caluine continually he alleadgeth the. 13. Chap. and no booke as though he had written but one booke and indeede there is no such thing in no such chapter of any booke of his institutions or many other place throughout his whole works as I am perswaded If this fault had bin but twise or thrise I woulde haue thought it had bin the Printers but now that it is continuall and so oftentimes surely he gyueth great suspicion that eyther some body hath mocked him with these places or else he would abuse others and especially him that should answere his booke setting him to seeke that he shoulde neuer finde Io. Whitgifte You pleade ignorance of such an edition of M. Caluines institutions but it is bycause you cannot answer the place for other places which I haue in like manner alleaged for the which you might haue any colour of answering you haue found out at the first yea and this selfe same place now in question but when there is no shifte to auoyd that which is alledged then you quarell with the booke and suspect that eyther Pag. 19. Sect. some body hath mocked him or that he would abuse others c. No no T. C. I thanke god I vse no such dealing I do alledge nothing which I haue not red in the Authors themselues I study not to encounter the Answer for eyther I set downe the whole place or else quote it so that it may easily be found Touching this booke of institutions of M. Caluines which I now follow I haue spoken before and declared why I do vse it rather than any other I haue laboured it noted it I am acquainted with it and belike I red it before you knew whether there was any such booke or no and if there be no suche booke of M. Caluines institutions only deuided into chapters and sections and not into bookes I will giue you all M. Caluines works bycause you so complayne of lacke of bookes But to come to the thing it selfe M. Caluine in that place speaking of such lawes and orders in the Church as are not perpetuall but alterable as occasion serueth vseth this commaundement of S. Paules touching the silence of women in the Churche for one example to make the matter more manifest his wordes be these Or is the commaundement touching hir silence such as it may not be broken without wickednesse Chap. 1 Sect. 32. And alittle after Et est vbi loqui nō minus opportunum illi sit quà m alibi tacere And there is a time and place when and where it is as fit for hir to speake as else where to holde ir peace These words be plaine and do sufficiently answer all that you can obiect to the contrary Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. 4. As for M. Caluines iudgement what it is of womens preaching it may appeare by that he 4. Li. institut cap. 15. Sect. 20. will not by no meanes no not in time of necessitie as they tearme it suffer eyther woman or any lay man to baptise or minister any sacrament and therefore not to preach Io. Whitgifte I doubt not of M. Caluines iudgement in that poynt and yet I knowe other learned and notable men that thinke otherwise and namely Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo neyther do I go about to teach that women may preach I tell you onely what extreame necessitie maye extraordinarily permitte withoute iust cause of reprehension Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 110. Sect. vlt. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moyses of Olda of Anna and the daughters of Philip the Euangelist whiche are all called prophetesses tor I thinke M. Doctor meaneth these examples as for them I say it will be hard for to shew that they euer prophecied or taughte openly in any publike me ng or congregation But the surer answer is that although the Lorde do sometimes not being vnder any
sufficient to ground any certaine doctrine vpon being of faith and of saluation as you haue saide before the kinde of gouernment to be Wherefore it is you that disturbe and seeke to ouerthrow the order of gouernment appointed by God and therefore in the end you must looke to be ouerthrowen your selfe To your imagination of transforming simple vnap and vnlearned men to an aptnesse and 〈◊〉 of gouernment if your platforme were placed I will only answere that which Master Bullinger did to a fantasse of the Anabaptists not much vnlike You imagine and conceyue in your minde those things which neuer haue beene nor are extant and shall neuer hereafter be Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The nintéenth What should we speake of the Archbishops Court sith all men know it and your wisdome cannot but see what it is As all other Courtes are subiect to this by the Popes To proue that the regiment of the Church should be spirituall ade ph 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13 1. Tim. 1. 2. Heb. 10. 30 〈◊〉 yea and by statute of this Realme yet vnxepealed so is it the filthie quaue ire poysoned plash of all the abhominations that do infect the whole Realme We speake not of licences graunted out of this Court to marrie in forbidden tymes as in Lent in Aduent in the gang week when ban ers and belles with the Priest in his surplesse singing Gospels and making crosses raungeth about in many places vpon the ember dayes and to forbidden persons in exempt places We make no mention of licences to eate white meate and flesh in Lent and that with a safe conscience for rich men that can buy them with mony nor we say nothing how dearly men pay for them s for dispensations with beneficed voyes tollerations for non reudents bulles to haue two benefices to haue three to haue more and as many as they list or can get these are so common that all godly and good men are compelled with griefe of heart to crie out vpon such abhominations We omit excommunication for money absolution for the same and that by absoluing one for another which how contrarie it is to the Scriptures the complaints of many learned men by propositions in open scholes proposed by wrytings in printed bookes set out and by preaching in open 〈◊〉 haue bene sufficiently witnessed To conclude this ilthie Court hath full power togither with the authoritie of this pettie Pope Metropolitane and primate of all England to dispence in all causes wherein the Pope was wont to dispence vnder which are conteyned more cases and causes than we are able to recken As for my Lordes grace of Yorke we deale not with him We referre him to that learned Epistle which Beza wrote vnto him about these matters Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 228. Sect. 1. 2. pag. 229. I thinke this Court to be necessarie for the state of this Church and Realme and if there be abuses in it either in the law it selfe or in the persons I wish it were reformed But the whole order of the Court is not therefore to be condemned no more than it is of other Courts which cannot be missed and yet haue abuses in them I confesse my selfe to haue little experience in such matters and therefore I will speake the lesse thereof As I do mislike that there should be any time forbidden to marry in for that can haue no good meaning or any dispensations for boyes to keepe benefices or excommunications and absolutions for money for one man to be absolued for another and if there be any other such like abuse so do I vtterly condemne your vnseemely and vnchristian termes as filthie quauemire poysoned plash of al abhominatiōs filthie Court especially cōsidering wherof they be spoken to whom and by whom they argue a scolding nature a stomack boyling with contempt of lawes The Church aundered by the Admonitors superiors Neither can I suffer you to slaunder not that Court but this Church with manifest vntruthes as you do when you say that banners belles and making of crosses be allowed to be vsed in the gangweeke and that the Archbishops court hath full power to dispence in all causes wherin the Pope was wont to dispence which both be most vntrue I thinke in dispensations this Court goeth no further than the lawes of the Realme do permit Agreeable to this spirit is your cōtemtuous speach vsed to both the Archbishops mē to be reuerēced not only in the respect of their yeres and authoritie but of their singular wisdome grauitie learning and sound religion also Howbeit you reuerence them as you do all other that be in authority except some whome you do but seeke to vse to bring your intentes to passe I will say no more I thinke you haue abused maister Beza with your false reportes Beza and others used by salse information which hath caused him to write otherwise than he woulde do if he knewe the whole state of the controuersie So you haue also abused other notable learned men and caused them to wryte according to yourfansie which since that time beeing truely informed haue by their letters which are to be seene both condemned your cōtentiousnesse and their owne to much credulitie But our faith and Church dependes neither vpon M. Beza nor any other man neither do they looke for any such prerogatiue But still you are without the booke T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 1. In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbishops Court necessarie but bringeth no reason and further confesseth himselfe ignorant of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come vnlesse it be from thence that he liketh of al things be they neuer so euill which the Admonition misliketh The rest which M. Doctor hath of this matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowne what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excep ed it remayneth in his former effect Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed better reasons for it than you haue done agaynst it as yet For it 〈◊〉 made 〈◊〉 e ouerthrowne but by very strōg reasons is a reason for me sufficient that the Court is established by the authoritie of the Prince and the whole Realme and fit it is that very strong reasons should be vsed before this reason be reiected For in matters of gouernment place must be giuen to the gouernors law makers and to the state except there can be shewed inuincible reasons to the contrarie whereof you haue not in this place vttered one Of Deacons and Wydowes Tract 19. Of the office of Deacons Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. It was before shewed that of the gouernors of the Church there were some whose charge perteyned vnto the whole Church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the Church that is