do they not as they falsly accuse them first prove them to be enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom and not a godly and an honest Presbyterie and then as in duty they are all bound earnestly in the first place seeke to God that he would send faithfull Labourers into his Vineyard and secondly to authority that they would set up an honest and a godly Presbyterie and give unto them full power that they may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdom every thing that offends according to the Word of God which all the knowing godly Presbyterians Ministers and people do heartilydesire that so no truly tender consciences may be scandalized this I say were the duty of them all and not to make suppositions needlesse requests to those that have neither power nor authority to doe it But the Independents are so farre from this that they have made it their designe hitherto to hinder the worke of Reformation by raysing up questions continually as being alwayes unsatisfied and by seeking to stirre up the people in their preachings and Pamphlets against the Presbyterians and that meerly to oppose retard and keepe off a setled government in the Church of God saying what haste is there of that and in the meane time they fish in our troubled waters and yet their strongest and most effectuall baits wherewith they allure and catch the poore silly fishes I meane the simple and unstable people is this to tell them that there is not any Church government setled and that as they have waited many years already so they may waite as many more and be as farre off from Discipline and a through Reformation as they now are saying withall if they doe waite to have a Presbyterie set up what if it be not a good one and what if they have not power to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends affirming that as it is uncomfortable so it is absolutely sinfull to live without the Ordinances which amongst the Saints and none but Beleevers in their Congregations they may injoy Thus whiles the Independents doe labour and endeavour with all their might to oppose the setling of Church government they make the want thereof the most powerfull and prevalent Engine and Argument to draw the people into their way and upon the occasion of these Interrogatories or queries and of these Ifs and An ds of my Brother Burton and his confedertes I shall set downe some of their Independent practises well known to many thousands in this Kingdome besides my selfe by which their ingratitude both to God and men and the restâ—esnesse of these mens spirits will the better appeare to all such as are not blinded with a previous or prejudicated opinion So that all men of discerning spirits by beholding their juglings and unwarrantable proceedings may learne to shun them and to take heed of them and all their by-wayes It is well knowne that in the time of the Prelats power the removall of a very few things would have given great content unto the most scrupulous consciences for I my selfe can speake thus much not only concerning the conscientious Professors here in England but the most rigid Separatists beyond the Seas with many of which I had familiar acquaintance at home and abroad and amongst all that ever I conversed with I never heard them till within these twenty yeares desire any other thing in Reformation but that the Ceremonies might be removed with their Innovations and that Episcopacy might be regulated and their boundlesse power and authority taken from them and that the extravagances of the High Commission Court might be annihilated and made void and that there might through the Kingdom be a preaching Ministery every where set up This was all that the most that I was then acquainted with desired in the Reformation of Church matters Indeed within this sixteene yeares I met with some that desired a more full Reformation and yet if they might have injoyed but that I now mentioned they would have beene very thankfull to God and authority and have sate downe quietly But yet I say the extreamest extent of their desires reached but to the removall of all the Ceremonies and Innovations the taking away of the Service Booke and the putting downe of the High Commission Court which was called the court Christian though it was rather Pagan and the removall of the Hierarchy root and branch and the setting up and establishing of a godly Presbyterie through the Kingdome this was I say all and the uttermost Reformation that was required by the most scrupulous men then living that I knew yea I can speake thus much in the presence of God that Master Robinson of Leiden the Pastor of the Brownist Church there told mee and others who are yet living to witnesse the truth of what I now say that if hee might in England have injoyed but the liberty of his Ministry there with an immunity but from the very Ceremonies and that they had not forced him to a subscription to them and imposed upon him the observation of them that hee had never separated from it or left that Church This I can depose so that all men may see the very dispensing with the ceremonies would then have given great content to the most austere professors how much more may any man suppose would they have sate down satisfied if but the very ceremonies then might have bin removed Surely if the Prelats had not beene infatuated and had they but in those things a little connived and would have abated somewhat of their rigour for ought I know they might have never been questioned but they might have injoyed all their honours and greatnesse and whatsoever they could have desired and that with the good liking of all the people had they I say but dispensed with those needlesse vanities and had they but favoured honest and godly Ministers and set up Lights I meane good Preachers in the darke places and corners of the Kingdome they would have beene beloved and reverenced of all men and no man would have envied their Magnificence yea I am most assured had they but favoured good and godly men the whole Kingdome would have beene their friends and whereas they all at last petitioned against them they would have supplicated in their behalfe that they might still have continued in their authority But through their owne pride and from an ambition of Lording it over their brethren and by their tyrannicall practices and licentious living they have brought confusion upon themselves and beene one of the principall causes of all the miseries and distractions and of all the blood-shed that the three Kingdomes are now involved with and for ought I can discerne our Independent Predicants now treading in their steps and seeking to be the sole and onely men and to set up their new government which is more groundlesse then that of the Prelates if the Lord of his infinite power and goodnesse prevent
nothing â—ut Peacocks Parrets and Jackanapes or more mischievous things though gayly set forth with the which he befooles himself and amases yea deceives the poor and ignorant people whiles they go gazing after them For saith he We distinguish between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand and power and interest on the other and this latter belongs unto the people the other is proper to the officers c. But before I come to my answer I must tell I. S. that from whom soever he hath borrowed this distinction it is groundlesse and has no Warrant for it in sacred writ yea I hope to make it good that it is contrary unto it and therefore it was well said by a learned Professor of Divinity in the University of Oxford that it was an easie thing to finde distinctions in schoolmen to mocke God and destroy their own souls and thereupon exhorted all his Scollers to be very carefull lest out of respect to mens persons and from the conceipt they had of their piety and abilities in learning they were not deceived And the same exhortation may now in these our dayes be of very good use especially when a lying spirit is gone out into innumerable false Prophets as it did in Ahab his time and when a spirit of error is gone out into the world and is to be found in every house of the Independents in all these regards I say the caveat and exhortation of that reverend Divine may now be very usefull and serviceable for these our times And therefore it stands all men upon to prove and examine all things according to the Apostles rule 1 Thess 5. ver 21 and hold fast that which is good Now in Divine matters and in the matters of our God we must be especially careful that we see a ground warrant out of his word or from excellent reason or good consequences deduced from thence for whatsoever opinion or distinction in sacred things shall be brought and propounded unto us and if it have not its authority or ground from thence or some example or president or sollid reason or good consequence out of the same word to warrant and confirm it it is to be rejected by all good Christians especially if it consist of captious doubtful and ambiguous expressions and which will admit of various and different interpretations and to all the rest be found contrary to the word of God as this grollish distinction brought by I. S. doth for he makes a distinction between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand and power and interest on the other as if there were some vast difference between them when all learned men know that authority jurisdiction and power are all one as when a Magistrate making use of either of these words says such an one is under my authority or jurisdiction or power all men know that either of those words signifies his authority over him and those expressions intimate one the same thing But as for the word interest which he makes a Synonima with power it is a meer grollery for that is a word of ambiguity and of various significations and admits of divers interpretations and therefore cannot be the same with power the meaning of the which I am confident that I. S. himselfe knoweth not but this word serves the turne of our American brethren and those of the Congregationall way here to juggle withall But if a man would but seriously consider and weigh what the meaning of this word interest signifieth in their dialect and what they understand by it if they would speak out they shall finde that by that distinction of power and interest in the people by interest they mean and understand a title or right or due in the people both to the property and possession of all the power in Church and State and beleeve that it is originally and radically in the people and that it is properly their due and right and from them onely delegated to the officers of Church and State whom as they do betrust with it so they may at pleasure take it from them again and this that I now say the Pamphlets of these times many of them can witnesse is their meaning by interest amongst others that of Englands birth right and John Lilburns learned Letter who in the 14 Page of the same hath these words For my part saith he I looke upon the House of Commons as the supreme power of England who have residing in them that power that is inherent in the people who yet are not to act according to their owne wils and pleasures but according to the constitutions and customes of the Land c. out of whose words it is apparently evident that they make all power to be inherently in the people as their birth-right to which they may at any time make as good title and claime as to their inheritance and that they in their language call interest this also can be proved out of many of the Independents Pamplets and from their words that if they conceive the Parliament use not that power they are intrusted with according to the constitutions and customes of the land they may at any time by the people be devested of it or at least questioned I am confident I say there would be no great difficulty to prove as much as I now say has beene uttered by the Sectaries of these our times and I am most assured if they increase but to a little greater number that unlesse the Lord shew his mighty power in preserving the Parliament if they should in the least displease them and not humour them to their content they would put that in execution and really act what now they but mutter in corners and set forth in libellous Pamphlets and in warning peeces as in Londons late Warning-peece so that this truth is very wel knowne that by power and interest in the Independents language which they place in the people and not in the officers they meane the soveraigne and supreme authority and all say that it is their peculiar birth-right and that they are the Parliament and Iudges and that the officers are but their servants either to prepare matters for their hearing or for executing of what they would have them to doe and that whatsoever they speake of authority and jurisdiction in the officers it is onely to please them a little by putting a rattle into their hand that may looke gayly and make a little noyse but have no strength in it for they keepe all power in their owne hands and this I hope to make good out of I. S. his distinction and that to the dishonour of God himselfe as well as to the overthrowing of all authority in time through the world and therefore this distinction must necessarily be against the word of God But that my charge against I. S. and those of his party for hee writeth in the name of them all may the better appeare to all that shall
not the onely Saints nor the old Puritans of England over-growne for it is notorious that all of them abhorred all these their ungodly proceedings and therefore the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse but the open way of sinne heresie and apparent Rebellion But I will yet in a few things more compare the old Puritans of England and the Sectaries and Independents together before I come to speake of the prayer of that Homothumadon brother I first made mention of It is well knowne that the old Puritans of England were all of them very zealous for the sanctifying of the Lords day and their whole imployments on that day sufficiently declared to all those that were familiarly acquainted with them that they were heavenly minded men and such as were truly mortified and dead unto the world who denyed unto themselves usually those ordinary necessaries on that day that at other times they would more freely partake in they dressed but little meat on that day no more then very necessitie called for not out of any penuriousnesse but for this end that their servants might be eased from all toyling workes that they might the better attend upon the duties of the day and they were especially carefull that both they and their children with the strangers that were within their gates should sanctifie that day they left none of them to ramble whether they pleased they had well learned that Lesson that they and their men-servants and maid-servants with the stranger within their wals should keepe holy the Sabbath day and did both by themselves and with their families take order that no duty of the day should be omitted the whole day being taken up either in prayer or meditation or reading of the holy Scriptures or hearing the Word or repeating of Sermons or singing of Psalmes or instructing and catechising their Families or in the works of charity or visiting the sick or in holy conference or in reading godly books or in performing of some duty or other that might bring glory to God and honour to their holy profession and their houses were generally so well ordered and all things carried in such comelinesse and decencie as he that had beene brought up in profane company and had accidentally lighted into owne of their houses would as much have wondred to see the excellent carriage of all things there as the Queene of Sheba did to behold the ordering of Solomons house I may truly speake this to their immortall praise that I never saw in their Families the least disorder on those dayes nor never saw a Feast on that day though at other times they were very free in their entertainments and much given to Hospitalitie and nigardly in nothing and commonly they caused their Table-cloath to be spread on the Saturday before they went to bed and they were carefull that all that were well in the Family should go to Church with them and they had a singular care that all their servants might have no hindrances or impediments by any worldly imployments that might in the least disturbe them or dictract them from the duties of the day all these things I can witnesse with thousands more besides my selfe were the practices of the old Puritans of England and this was the way of Righteousnesse that they walked in for the sanctifying of the Lords day Now if the practice of the Independents and Sectaries about this busines and point of obedience be looked into there will be found a vast difference betweene them and the old Puritans of England for it is well knowne that they ordinarily make all their greatest entertainments on that day as that I spake of before for instance and many more that I could mention where the whole Church was feasted to no small distraction to their poore and godly servants that were taken up with more attendance that day then Martha was on an ordinary day in entertaining of Christ himselfe which not withstanding hee then blamed in very godly and beleeving Martha who had learned to give Christ an honourable confession of her faith concerning her beliefe in him and doubtlesse if Martha were then blamed by Christ and had from him a reproofe for her too much care about many things in entertaining himselfe I beleevee the Independents and Sectaries will receive but little thankes at his hand for profaning his owne day and causing others to doe the same and for their thus breaking and violating his holy Lawes and hindring of his servants by their needlesse entertainments from the duties of pietie and holinesse that he requires at their hands on those dayes and he will say to them at the last judgement as for these their disorderly walkings so for their new and needlesse traditions who required these things at your hands nay did I not forbid these things will the Lord say Truly it is most notorious that the Sectaries and Independents are very loose in the sanctifying of the Lords day and although many of them before they fel into the way of Independencie were very conscionable observers of that day and were greatly displeased with the King for granting but a toleration for sports on that day and could then say that very sinne alone had beene enough to bring downe the judgements of God upon the whole Land yet since they turned Sectaries they can now not only feast and ryot on that day but if need be work on the same in their ordinary imployments as can be proved and many of them that were then great zealots for the performances of all duties of holinesse that day with all their Families now regard not that day no more then an other nay they let their servants and children goe whether they please leaving them all to the liberty as they speake of their owne consciences and it is ordinarily observed that all the Independents and Sectaries in the Armie and through the whole Kingdome will frequently journey on that day and for the Homothumadon Predicants they are trundled about on the Lords day in their Coaches with foure Horses needlessely disquieting both men and beasts that they have a command to give rest unto A Tumbrell or a Dung-cart were fitter for these proud and profane Fellowes to be carried about in and if they will not leave these their licentious courses and surcease thus to profane the Lords day I see no reason but that the Magistrate should take some order with them and punish them for profaning it it being not only against the Lawes of God but contrary unto the Lawes of the Land It may be that is one of the Lawes that the Sectaries would have abrogated and made null for most certaine it is their practises are both contrary to that Law and the knowne Law of God and the practise of all the old Puritans of England and therefore the way of Independency in this point also is not the way of Righteousnesse but of profanesse and licentiousnesse neither are they overgrowne Puritans in this But
that I have not known any Presbyterian now living that was formerly familiarly acquainted with any that afterward turn'd Sectary or Independent notwithstanding whatsoever courtesies they had formerly received from them that have not either betrayed him or done him some ill office afterward or at least would never do him the least kindnesse though he were in need or shew him any favour So that in this point of love and charity they walk not in the way of the old Puritans who were kind to all men and sincere towards those they had familiarly conversed with it never being known that they betrayed any of them or did them any ill offices and therefore in this point also the way of Independency is not the way of righteousnesse nor the way of the old Puritans of ENGLAND but the way of treachery unthankfulnesse and unrighteousnesse But to instance the practices and wayes of the old Puritans in a few things more and then to compare them with the wayes of the Independents and Sectaries The old Puritans of ENGLAND as all can witnesse that knew them were all of them generally men no way addicted to the pleasures of the world and in their apparell and outward garbe commonly they were ever out of fashion It was to my knowledg counted a great sin amongst them to exceed in apparrell or to be fashionably clad or to go with long hair or Rufsian like or to be seen in gorgeous attire You should rarely or seldome behold any gold or silver lace on any of their apparrell except they had been of noble Parentage or of some very great and rich Families or in some eminent place of authority and that was alwayes very sparing and for cuffs at their hands not one of a thousand of the old Puritans were ever seen in any and if they at any time upon any festivity or at any solemn entertainment or upon such like occasion appeared in any they were commonly such little sucking ones as a man could scarse discern them Now if you look upon all the Independents generally through Town and Country though they were never born to any estates nor were of any repute till that out of the ruines of the Kingdome by their Sectarisme and indirect dealings they have attained to some wealth You shall find them the only gallants of the world so that one that should meet them would take them for Roarers and Ruffians rather then Saints Yea you shall find them with cuffs and those great ones at their very heels and with more silver and gold upon their clothes and at their heels for those upstarts must now be in their silver spurs then many great and honourable personages have in their purses so that those that behold them if they knew them not would take them to be the Gentry and Peers of the Kingdome rather then a company of obscure fellows in so much that some taking notice of the great change in this Kingdome said not long since that Gentlemen and Noblemen were become beggers and beggers were become Lords and Gentlemen Truly the like pride in apparell was never seen amongst such as made profession of Religion before these our times Whereas the old Puritans of ENGLAND both men and women were all modestly cladd and attired and went very plain and thought it rather a scandall to Religion to be attired or cladd in the least manner after the fashion of the Court then for an honour to their profession and I have known them blame those that abhorred all pride as much as any men did and onely for that they went handsomely cladd and apparrelled although it were onely for the gracing of their profession as they then told them for the which they were at that time sufferers So that if those people were now alive those old Puritans and should see our Sectaries and Independents who predicate themselves to be the onely Saints those good old Puritans would lift up their hands with admiration and say as one of New England said not long since seeing a brother of his coming over thither very gallant whom he had known live in a meaner condition that in beholding him he thought he saw one of the seven wonders of the world and profest that he believed they would ere long grow mad with pride in Old ENGLAND saying moreover that in his time he having then been but ten years in New England he that should have been seen go in those fashions the Sectaries and Independents usually and daily now go in would have been thought to have had little Religion in him and he exceedingly marvelled at the liberty all those of the Congregationall way now take saying that he much suspected their sincerity that now made that a vertue and counted that an honour to Religion which the old Puritans of England deemed a dishonour to God and a disgrace and dishonour to their holy profession So that in this point also the practices and way of the Sectaries is not the way of the old Puritans of England and the way of righteousnesse it being the way of vanity and the world and contrary unto the command of the Apostle Saint Paul Rom. 12. ver 2 3 4. Again whereas the old Puritans of ENGLAND had their fare diet and houshold stuffe how rich in estate soever they were according to their severall degrees were it a Yeoman or but an ordinary Gentleman or a Knight they ever observed their rank whatsoever I say or how great soever the estates of each of them were the Yeoman had his house furnished and fared like a Yeoman and not like a Gentleman the Gentleman he also fared like a Gentleman and had his house furnished accordingly and not like a Knight the Knight in like manner fared like a Knight and had his house furnished according to his rank and not like a Lord All the old Puritans of ENGLAND every one of them out of conscience observed and kept their rank and lived and fared according to that degree and order God had placed them in this world and used their superfluity for the clothing of the naked and feeding of the necessitated and relieving of the poor many of the which rich Yeomen Gentlemen and Knights I could name some of the which to my knowledge layed by yearly out of their estates and revenues some two hundred pounds some three hundred yea some five hundred pounds all their life time which they sent to the godly Ministers here and there dispersed through the Kingdome to be distributed amongst the poor and necessitated Christians in those parts and this was the practice of the old rich Puritans of ENGLAND yea many of them maintained a preaching orthodox Minister in some blind corner of the Kingdome at their own charges others of them alwaies entertained one silenced Minister or other or took poor necessitated Christians children into their Families and bred them as their own I can speak much to the praise of God and to many of their immortall honours upon my
of the world And this I thought fit to speak concerning the first question or controversie betweene the Presbyterians and the Independents The second is concerning the gathering of Churches and admitting of Members into Church fellow-ship communion which the Independents hold and teach must be upon these conditions First that they that are to be admitted and before they can be received into the Church they must walke sometime with them In new-New-England they make some walke seven yeeres before they can be received and this is their first condition Secondly before their admission they must make every one of them a particular and publicke confession of their faith Thirdly they must bring in the evidences of their conversion declaring the time when the place where and the occasion how they were converted Fourthly they must all and every one of them enter into a particular explicite Covenant Fifthly they must come in and be admitted by the consent of the whole Church Nemine contradicente so that the refusing of any of these hinders their admission and the gathering of Churches after so fashion as the French men use to speake when they learn English is the onely way as they all affirme of setting up Christ as King upon his Throne and this is the opinion and doctrine of all the Independents concerning the gathering of Churches pretending withall that they have the Church of Jerusalem for this their paterne and plat-forme which is nothing else but to abuse the Scripture as will afterwards appeare The Presbyterians on the contrary side hold and beleeve that for the gathering of Churches and for the making of any Members of any Church and for the admitting of them into Church Followship and Communion no other conditions are to be propounded to them by the Ministers for their reception into the society of the Church or to be required at any peoples hands but those that Christ the King of his Church whose voyce is only in Church matters to be listned unto and heard hath propounded viz. Repentance Faith and Baptisme And this is the beliefe and opinion of the Presbyterians concerning the admission of Members and gathering of Churches affirming that the Independents have neither Precept nor President for all their new conditions in the whole Booke of God and therefore that they ought to be rejected as their owne inventions and as the vaine and wicked traditions of their owne braine as will clearely in the following discourse be evidenced to all men And this is briefly the state of the question and difference betweene us Now before I set downe the ground and seeming warrant they pretend for this their fond opinion of Independency by which they have brought trouble and confusion upon this whole Church and Kingdome I thinke it fit I say before the handling of the whole busines to say something concerning the sorts of Independents I have to deale with and against the which all my following Arguments doe militate and I find two sorts of Independents the first are those which for distinction sake I call Homothumadons the other Burtonians Now the Homothumadon Independents that at this day swarme through the whole Kingdome if their owne brags may be beleeved are the universality of all the Sectaries who generally hold that There were no more beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem and in all other the primitive Churches within their respective Precincts then could all ordinarily meet in one Congregation to partake in all Acts of worship and from thence out of this their imaginary opinion they forme all their severall Churches calling their Assemblies the Churches of the Congregationall way and to this their opinion they sticke and cleave immoveably The Burtonian Independents of which my Brother Burton is the Corypheus and Antesignanus and from whom they have received their doctrine they hold and beleeve that there were many Congregations and Assemblies of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem but deny that those severall Congregations were Churches properly so called This I say is the opinion of my Brother Burton and his disciples So that my first Brigade of Arguments and Forces that I have drawn out of Saint Iohn the Baptists Christs and his blessed Apostles and seventy Disciples quarters and that before Christs death with all those I have taken out of the strong garrison of Ierusalem after Christs ascension and have brought into the field to dispute this controversie and question they militate against the whole Army of the Homothumadon Sectaries that under the command of Hanserdo Knollys and I. S. their Generalls indeavored to maintain and keep this ground viz. That there were no more Beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem at first and last then could and did ordinarily all meet together in one place or Congregation to partake in all acts of worship The other companies that I have taken out of the Apostles quarters after Christs death resurrection and ascension militate against all the Burtonian Independents in the head of which Army he himselfe comes out into the field as their Generall maintaining that those severall Assemblies in the Church of Ierusalem were not Churches properly so called And he Goliah-like appears armed with his sword and Phocions hatchet which is his pol-ax bidding defiance to the whole host of Presbyterians presuming to make good this ground against them all viz. That those severall Assemblies of Beleevers in the Church at Ierusalem were not Churches properly so called challenging me by name saying Page 7. Come on Brother let you and I try it out by the dint of this swoâ—d adding moreover these words and truly I shall by the helpe of my Godmake no long worke of it I shall saith he assay with one stroke of Phocions Hatchet to cut in two the long thread of your Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications Thus valiant old Harry tryumphs before the victory and even conjures it out And in this dispute betweene my Forces and all the Independent Army after a few skirmishes they shall see not only a private Duell fought betweene Generall Burton and my selfe but the fall of that their Champion with their totall rout and see their whole Army to fly and leave the field and that most cowardly though they were three to one howsoever their scattered Forces now and then make some false alarums and speake bigge words what reserves they yet have and what great things they will doe and how they will rally againe and come upon me and breake through and through to the totall routing of all my Forces They that are acquainted with the feats of Armes and expert souldiers in this Militia will well perceive that it is but selfe confidence in them all and that all their swelling words will tend to their owne dishonour I have three Generals to encounter with in the Independent Army two under the name of all the Homothumadons Hanserdo Knollys and I. S. and Henry Burton in the name of all those of his party besides some whibling reserves
part of this last Querie is the same with the former for here you speake as if to slight the Independents were a sure way to obtaine favour and applause from Popish Cavaliers truly you flatter your selfe if you thinke your subtill dealing herein is not seene when as it is so notoriously known that any man who speaks against Independents may be scorned but never applauded by Popish or any that are Cavaliers for they applaud the Independents whom they hold to be more subtill and powerfull to effect the thing they chiefly ayms at and desire then themselves and it is well knowne and can be proved that they will run and goe to doe any Malignant a favour yea they will joyne with the wickedest Cavaliers against a Presbyterian to doe him a mischiefe But having cleared this truth in my Reply to your first Querie I hasten to the other part of this where you start the Question Whether the favour I received were not by my courtly compliance with Papists preferring them before Protestants c. To which I answer that my constant perseverance in holding forth the true Protestant Religion where ever I lived at home and beyond the seas is sufficiently knowne to all the godly faithfull orthodox Christians that inhabited in any of those parts where I have dwelt and so farre have I ever beene from any courtly complying with Papists or preferring them before Protestants as some in England at this day can testifie that when I lived in forraine nations my zeale was so great for the Protestant Religion that with no little hazard I have maintained it for all the while I travailed abroad and continued in Popish Countries which was many yeares it fared with mee as with the Apostle Paul while hee waited at Athens Act. 17. 16 17. my spirit was stirred in me when I saw the Cities and all the Countries wholly given to Idolatry therefore carrying my life in my hand I daily disputed with Papists and those they accounted the devout persons Priests and Iesuits against Popery maintaining the Protestant Religion insomuch as it was only the goodnesse of my God that kept me safe giving them no power to hurt mee further J answer you the Bookes that I have written against Popery in Latine and in English are yet extant and they doe witnesse and will to future generations that the Author of them disputed against and disclaimed Popery and earnestly contented for the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints Iud. vers 3. yea the many disputations I have held with Priests Jesuits and people popishly affected in England not onely while I injoyed my liberty but also when by the Prelaticall popish party J was for maintaining the true Protestant Religion and standing for the peace and welfare of my countrey cast into severall prisons viz. in the Gate-house at Westminster in the Castle of Launceston in Cornewall in the Castle in the Isle of Sylly in the Goale of Leicester in the Goale in the Citie of Yorke in Hemsley-Castle in Yorke-shire Lastly in Knasebrough-Castle in Yorke-shire Yet through Gods supporting grace in none of all these prisons could the cruelty pride and fury of men which in Yorke and Sylly was my daily portion either make me forget my integrity or daunt mee in the least for their rage and power I feared not neither did I ever forbeare to justifie godly Protestants nor decline any opportunity to dispute with Papists but improved it to the uttermost to shew the great idolatry and vanity of their Religion as many who were prisoners with mee in some of the fore-named places can testifie And I am confident that the Popish Cavaliers with whom I have beene a prisoner and others of them that have discoursed and reasoned with me in matters of Religion will give this testimony that they ever found me constant to my principles unmoveable in the Protestant Religion and as farre from complying with Papists or preferring them before Protestants what ever I suffered or under-went as light is from darkenesse in its greatest brightnesse Moreover Brother I would not that you should be ignorant how that I have beene as frequent in disputations writ as much in confutation and at all times and in all companies have appeared as forward and earnest against Papists and have ventured my life to maintaine the Protestant Religion as freely as any Independent I know in England and that in the worst of times yea when those who are now the chiefe independent Rabbies to avoyd suffering for truth would not stand to appeare in her behalfe but went out of the Kingdome and like the parents of the man that was borne blind Joh. 9. 21. Left her to speake for her selfe then J helped to maintaine truths cause and was not afraid nor ashamed to suffer in so good a quarrell but resisted her opposers Papists Prelates Arminians and Formalists in their erroneous Doctrines and Popish practises even unto blood I am become a foole in glorying you have compelled me 2 Cor. 12. 11. for so many reproaches which you have cast upon me and such groundlesse Queries could never have proceeded from any that had not beene guided should I say by a traducing spirit truly that word would come short fully to explaine and set forth the sinfull subtilty of them therefore I will not undertake to set down what spirit it was and what name it will beare I shall onely shew what it was not and leave it to such as are godly wife and experienced Christians to spell out the name thereof Now it is very evident that it was not the spirit of brotherly love that would have silenced yea annihilated such thoughts in the first conception for as brotherly love thinks no evill much lesse dares it devise and publish falshood yet more evill and greater falshood then you have not only thought as it plainely appeares but published against me and that deliberately none could ever have imagined for you render me a scandalous Walker as vile as vile can be and here you question whether I have not complyed with Papists and Popish Cavaliers and preferred them before Protestants Thus with your windie Independent policie you blast my good name raise doubts cloud my sincerity darken and overshadow my faithfull constant perseverance in the truth and wayes of God to make me be thought a man infamous and of no Religion but such dealings are absolutely contrary to brotherly love therefore it is very clear to the understanding of all that you were not guided by that spirit And as your quaeries were made without brotherly love so they seem to be altogether voyd of Christian experience being wholly filled with evill surmises scrued up to their height by the hand of carnall reason and uttered by the tongue of sinfull suspicion For I beseech you consider how it comes to passe that you who have been a Prisoner one of my Quondam Fellow Sufferers when you heare that I being a Prisoner under the command and power of
every Church that is to say in all or through all Churches these are his own words as you may see it in the third page of his wise Pamphlet So that when it makes for his turne hee can make no difference betweene the singular and the plurall yea hee translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim that is house by house which is as much as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as houses by houses and per singulas domas for hee that saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 man by man sayes as much as men by men and therefore hee playes the Iugler and cheate thus to cloud the light that he may put off his base wares the better and to darken the truth with his trifling about words al this to shew to the people that hee hath some skill in the Greeke and Latine because hee can write the words out of the Text which every Schoole boy can doe But I pray see how the poore creature troubles himselfe in beating the ayre hee saith it is in the Originall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 domatim they brake bread from house to house but it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulas domos that is to say they did not breake bread in all houses or through all the houses Ergo there were not many Congregations in Ierusalem which is a meere wickednesse in him to trifle thus for hee himselfe a little before translates 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 per singulat Ecclesias and here hee would make a great difference betweene the singular and the plurall when notwithstanding in the Originall there is none for in the twentieth of the Acts v. 20. there the Holy Ghost saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plurall which is all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but if Master Knollis Interpretation be good that when the word is used in the plurall it signifies many Congregations and Assemblies then in the Church of Ephesus by his owne confession there were many Congregations and yet they all made but one Church within that Precinct and doubtlesse so it was in Ierusalem there were many Congregations there and yet they all made but one Church and the truth is so evident that Master Knollys his owne interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the singular will carry it for hee translates it domatim house by house Now I appeale to any intelligible man that knowes but the English tongue or any other language where civility dwels and barbarism is banished whether or no when the Magistrate sends Messengers or Officers to search for any Delinquents and gives them in charge to search through such a street house by house I demand I say whether the Messengers by this their warrant are not in joyned to search every house in that street whether house by house be not to be understood every house and all the houses in that street and when the Officers returne againe to the Magistrate relate unto him that according to his command order they have diligently searched house by house through the street doe they not I pray in this acknowledge that they have searched every house in that street yea all the houses all men that know any thing in reason know that house by house in every street or in every Citie is as much as all houses in that street and in all houses in that Citie Now when the word of God sayes Acts 2. that the Christians in Jerusalem and Beleevers brake bread from house to house and when in the 5. of the Acts v. 42. it is recorded that the Apostles daily in the Temple and in every house or from house to house or house by house as Mr. Knollys would have it ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ It is manifestly apparent that in every of those houses and in all those houses they had an Assembly or Congregation of beleevers and for ought any thing can be said to the contrary there might be as many congregations then in Ierusalem as they had Ministers and Pastors there which were in abundance For none but the Ministers might administer the Sacrament of Baptisme and the Lords Supper the Apostles and the Ministers of the Gospell only had the charge to feed Christs sheep and Lambes so that the sheep and lambes were not to feede their Pastor Now all the people under them were either sheepe or lambs and they were not to intermedle in those holy Ordinances to administer them though they might receive them from them and therefore what the holy Word of God relateth to us that we are bound to believe but the holy Word of God relates unto us that in Ierusalem and that in the very infancy of the Church they had congregations and Assemblies every day in many severall houses at one time yea in every house Ergo there were many Assemblies and Congregations of believers in the Church at Ierusalem and that in the very infancy of it and this Master Knollys doth acknowledge for he confesseth they had their meetings day by day and house by house that is to say every day and in every house they had their Congregations in Ierusalem and so he is constrained to confesse that which he had so often and peremptorily denied but such is the force power and efficacy of truth as it will breake out of the mouth of the enemie and fly in their faces for Master Knollys doth confesse that besides their meetings in the Temple and in Solomons Porch and that daily they had their meetings also house by house Domatim so that their meetings and congregations in Jerusalem were numberlesse if they were from house to house But if neither the Scripture nor his owne confession can convince his error at least let his owne Words take some place with him who in the 23. pag. of his learned answer hath these expressions Some godly and learned men of approved gifts came to sojourne in this city and preached the Word both publickly and from house to house and daily in the Temples and in every house they ceased not to Teach and Preach Iesus Christ and some of them have dwelt in their owne houses and received all that came unto them c. Thus Mr Knollys speaks and for proof of what he saith he quotes the very places of Scriptures in the Margent of his booke that I produced as Act. 2. ver 46. Acts the 5. 42. Acts 20. vers 20. Where from house to house and in in every house in his dialect is all one which it was not when I quoted it out of the Word of God And very reason and common experience teaches all men that wheresoever the Independents have their meeting houses they have a Church or congregation there and as many meeting houses as they have so many Churches ordinatly they have witnesse Toleration-streete which they call the holy streete I meane Coleman-streete which an Independent one day meeting me passing through it tould me was the Saints streete
and that their were more precious Churches in that street then in all England besides and he did confidently believe it And I was no sooner passed from him but turning on the right hand I saw many of the Independents going into the Nags-head a Taverne a little above Coleman-streete there they call their Parliament and make Committees and Chayre-men for preparing of businesses for the great Councell and for the advising of them what to do and there they order how they will deale with the Presbyterians and this is one of their meeting houses also whither the Saints resort upon all occasions to consult together about the affairs of the Church State and that is the holy drinking Schoole of the Saints for they say they are all Saints and to the pure all things are pure and therefore they must have a pure drinking Schoole But passing from Toleration-streete and leaving their drinking schoole and they together Let us consider their practices and what Master Knollys saith who tells us that some godly and learned men of approved gifts came to Sojourne in this City and preached the Word of God both publickly and from house to house and daily in the Temples and in every house they cease not to teach and preach Jesus Christ I demande of any of the Independents now whether or no wheresoever any of those gifted men preach they have not a congregation to preach to and whether or no wheresoever any of them hath a gatherd Church as they call it he hath not there â—n his meeting house a Congregation and assembly and whether or no wheresoever they have preaching of the Word and breaking of bread amongst them they have not a Church or Congregation there I am confident they will none of them deny it Yea they will acknowledge that in as many places as the Word of God is preached amongst them and the Sacraments administred that in all those they have a severall Church congregation and assembly this very reason will dictate unto any man And therefore if in this City there be many Congregations and assemblies in all those places where they preach publikely and from house to house and in every house not onely because Mr Knollys saith it but because every mans reason will convince him of it after the same manner every man will conclude That in the Church of Ierusalem there was many Congregations and Assemblies for the Scripture relates That the word of God was preached publikely in the Temple and in Solomons Porch and that the Saints brake bread from house to house and that the Apostles ceased not to teach and preach Iesus Christ in every house and therefore all Christians are bound to beleeve this because the mouth of the Lord hath spoke it yea and it is acknowledged by Master Knollys from all which it doth now evidently appear to all the world that there were many Congregations and Assemblyes of beleevers in the Church of Ierusalem which Mr Knollys notwithstanding doth wickedly deny affirming there were no more beleevers in Ierusalem then could all meet in any one place and so he not onely contradicts himselfe and fights against the very light of reason but which is more he gives the spirit of God the lye and therefore he ought by all those of the seven Churches to be severely dealt with as a wicked impostor and deceiver and ought indeeed to be thrown out of all their Congregations as a jugler and a false prophet Having thus evidently proved that there were many Congregations in the church of Jerusalem before the persecution I will by Gods assistance make good that there were also many Assemblyes under the persecution and after the persecution and this I do the rather undertake because some of the brethren have said that howsoever it could be proved that before the persecution there were many severall Assemblies yet by reason of the dispersion of the beleevers the Church of Ierusalem was so wasted and scattered that there were no more left then could all meet in one Congregation And were it so that after the scattering of the Beleevers and Christians in Ierusalem it could never be evinced and made good that there were more then could meet together in one place yet all this were nothing for the enervating of the argument for we must ever look upon the first constitution and government of the Church and what it was originally and by divine constitution and not what it was accidentally and through persecution and oppression and by the violence of men for governments of Churches are often changed from their Primordiall State through many casualties as it happened often in the Church of the Jewes and therefore in all reformations things are to be reduced to the first rule and originall pattern and we are not to look upon them as by occasion they vary and change through the injury of the times And therefore if we look into the Church of Ierusalem as she was in her youth and in her most flourishing age we shall finde her consisting of divers Congregations and many Assemblies and all them governed by a Common Councell and joynt consent of a Presbytery which must be the patterne of all Church Government to the end of the world if wee will in our Reformation conforme our selves to Gods Ordinance and to the first constitution But because I say they think it so difficult a thing to prove many Congregations in Jerusalem after the persecution I will now God willing make it evident and not onely after the persecution but even in and under the persecution and I will do it first out of that very place our brethren bring against us and by which they labour to evince the contrary the place is in the 8. of the Acts verse 1 2 4. In these words And at that time there was a great persecution against the Church which was at Ierusalem and they were all scattered abroad through the Regions of Iudea and Samaria except the Apostles verse 3. As for Saul he made havock of the Church entring into every house and haling men and women committed them to prison Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word From whence the brethren gather that there were no more beleevers left than could meet in one Congregation Before I come to prove my Assertion I must give some Reasons to evince and make good that this dispersion and scattering of the Beleevers here spoken of was not so generall and universall and so great as that there might not yet remain more Congregations in Jerusalem and more people then could possibly meete in any one place or two for persecution is the bellowes of the Gospell which blowes every spark into a flame so that this their division proved their multiplication at home and abroad as wee shall see after I have set down my Arguments and Reasons so that it was no cause why we should conceive that there were fewer assemblies in the Church of