THE TRYAL OF WILLIAM VISCOUNT STAFFORD FOR HIGH TREASON In Conspiring the Death of the KING The Extirpation of the PROTESTANT RELIGION The Subversion of the GOVERNMENT and Introduction of POPERY into this Realm Upon an IMPEACHMENT BY THE Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled In the Name of Themselves and of All the COMMONS OF ENGLAND Begun in Westminster-Hall the 30. day of November 1680. and continued until the 7. of December following on which day Judgment of High Treason was given upon him With the Manner of his Execution the 29. of the same Month. Dublin Reprinted by Jos Ray at College-Green and are to be sold by S. Helsham Job North Jos Howes and the rest of the Booksellers of Dublin 1681. The TRYAL of William Viscount Stafford Begun in Westminster-Hall November 30. 1680. The First Day WIlliam Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis having been formerly impeached in the House of Lords of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences by the House of Commons in the Name of Themselves and of all the Commons of England And the House of Commons having sent a Message to the Lords to acquaint them with the Resolution of that House to proceed to the Tryal of those Lords then in the Tower and forthwith to begin with the said Viscount Stafford and to desire their Lordships to appoint a convenient day for the Tryal of the said Viscount Stafford their Lordships did thereupon appoint the 30. day of November 1680. for his Trial And a place in Westminster-Hall having been for that purpose erected the same was as followeth viz. Therein were both Seats and Wool-packs correspondent in all points to those in the House of Lords as also a State placed at the upper end thereof with a Cabinet for the King and whom His Majesty should think fit to attend him there on the right hand the State and the like on the left hand for the Queen and her Followers As also Galleries over head for Ambassadors and others And to the end that the Commons might be fitted with Seats upon this great occasion there were erected for them on each side divers Benches on several degrees extending to the utmost Walls of the Hall At the lower end the Bar whereunto the Prisoners were to be brought being placed on the right hand thereof was a place raised about five Foot wherein the Witnesses were to stand and on the left hand a convenient Room for those particular Members of the House of Commons which were to manage the Evidence And the Right Honourable Heneage Lord Finch Baron of Daventry Lord High Chancellor of England being by His Majesties Special Letters Patent bearing date the 30. of November 1680. Constituted Lord High Steward for that present occasion upon Tuesday the said 30. of November the Lord High Steward was honorably attended from his House in Queen-street by all the Judges of His Majesties Courts in Westminster-Hall in their Robes as also by Garter Principal King of Arms in His Majesties Coat of Arms and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod unto whom His Majesty had the day before delivered the White Wand to be carried before his Lordship and about nine of the clock in the morning set forwards in his Coach towards Westminster sitting at the hinder end thereof Garter and the Gentleman who bore the Great Seal sitting both uncovered at the other end one of the Setjeants at Arms with his Mace being placed on the right side the Coach and the Usher of the Black Rod carrying the VVhite VVand on the left side the Judges and his Lordships Gentlemen in several Coaches following after Being thus come to the Stairs-foot ascending to the House of Peers the Judges went up two and two together the Juniors first next the Lord High Steward's Gentlemen after them the Serjeant at Arms with his Mace and the Seal bearer and lastly the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod bearing the VVhite VVand Garter principal King of Arms going on his right hand Then his Lordship alone his Train born by one of his Gentlemen in this manner entring the House of Peers he found all the Lords in their Scarlet Robes also the Bishops in their Rochets and took his place upon the uppermost Woolsack This done and Prayers ended his Commission for Lord High Steward was read And then the Bishops receded and the Lords Adjourned themselves into the new erected a Court in VVestminster-Hall All things being thus in readiness and a large Door-place broken through the upper end of VVestminster-Hall into that Room which was heretofore the Court of VVards Their Lordships passed from their House first into the Painted Chamber then through that called the Court of Requests Thence turning on the left hand into that called the Court of VVards then entred at the Door so broke down as aforesaid into VVestminster Hall and passed through a long Gallery placed between the King's Bench and Chancery Courts into this New erected Court in VVestminster-Hall and proceeded after this manner viz. First the Assistants to the Clerk of the Parliament Then the Clerk of the Crown in Chancery and Clerk of the Parliament after them the Masters in Chancery two and two and the King's Attorney General alone Then the Judges of all Courts in VVestminster-Hall by two and two Next to them Noblemens Eldest Sons After them Four Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces Next the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod. Then all the Noble Men according to their respective Degrees the Juniors first viz. Barons Viscounts Earls Great Officer viz. Lord Chamberlain of the Houshould Marquesses Dukes Great Officers Lord Privy Seal Great Officers Lord President of the Council Then Four more Serjeants at Arms bearing their Maces After them the Gentleman carrying the Great Seal Then one of His Majesties Gentlemen Ushers daily-waiters carrying the White Wand Garter Principal King of Arms going on his right Hand Then the Lord High Steward alone having his Train born and after him his Highness Rupert Duke of Cumberland a Prince of the Blood This done and the whole House of Peers having taken their Places according to their Degrees the Commons being also Seated on each side and the Managers in the Room appointed for them the Commons being all bare The Lord High Steward after obeysance made towards the State took his place upon the uppermost Wool-sack and thereupon receiving the VVhite VVand from Garter and the Gentleman Usher upon their Knees delivered it to the Usher of the Black Rod who held it during the time of Sitting there Having so done his Lordship said Cryer make Proclamation of Silence Then the Cryer a Serjeant at Arms made Proclamation thus All manner of Persons are straitly commanded to keep Silence upon pain of Imprisonment God save the King Lord High Steward Make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring the Prisoner to the Bar. Cryer Oyes Oyes Oyes Lieutenant
Forreign Forces and to surprize seize and destroy His Majesties Navy Forts Magazines and places of strength within this Kingdom whereupon the Calamities of War Murders of Innocent Subjects Men Women and Children Burnings Rapines Devastations and other dreadful Miseries and Mischiefs must inevitably have ensued to the ruine and destruction of this Nation 5. And the said Conspirators have procured and accepted and delivered out several Instruments Commissions and Powers made and granted by or under the Pope or other Vnlawful and Vsurped Authority to raise and dispose of Men Moneys Arms and other things necessary for their wicked and traiterous Designs and namely a Commission for the said Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour to be Lord Chancellor of England another Commission to the said William Earl of Powis to be Lord Treasurer of England another Commission to the said John Lord Bellasis to be General of the Army to be raised another Commission to the said William Lord Petre to be Lieutenant General of the same Army and a Power for the said William Viscount Stafford to be Paymaster of the Army 6. That in order to encourage themselves in Prosecuting their said wicked Plots Conspiracies and Treasons and to hide and hinder the Discovery of the same and to secure themselves from Justice and Punishment the Conspirators aforesaid their Complices and Confederates have used many wicked and diabolical Practices viz. They did cause their Priests to Administer to the said Conspirators an Oath of Secrecy together with their Sacrament and also did cause their said Priests upon Confessions to give their Absolutions upon Condition that they should conceal the said Conspiracy And when about the Month of September last Sir Edmundbury Godfrey a Justice of Peace had according to the Duty of his Oath and Office taken several Examinations Informations concerning the said Conspiracy and Plot the said Conspirators or some of them by Advice Assent Counsel and Instigation of the rest did incite and procure divers Persons to lie in wait and pursue the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey divers days with intent to Murder him which at last was perpetrated and effected by them for which said horrid Crimes and Offences Robert Green Henry Berry and Lawrence Hill have since been Attainted and Dominick Kelly and Girald and others are fled for the same After which Murder and before the Body was found or the Murder known to any but the Complices therein the said Persons falsly gave out that he was alive and privately Married And after the Body found dispersed a false and malitious Report That he had Murdered himself Which said Murther was committed with design to stifle and suppress the Evidence he had taken and had knowledge of and discourage and deter Magistrates and Others from Acting in further Discovery of the said Conspiracy and Plot For which end also the said Sir Edmundbury Godfrey while he was alive was by them their Complices and Favourers threatned and discouraged in his proceedings about the same 7. And of their further Malice they have wickedly contrived by many false Suggestions to lay the Imputation and Guilt of the aforesaid Horrid and Detestable Crimes upon the Protestants that so thereby they might escape the Punishments they have justly deserved and expose the Protestants to great Scandal and subject them to Persecution and Oppression in all Kingdoms and Countries where the Romish Religion is received and professed All which Treasons Crimes and Offences above mentioned were Contrived Committed Perpetrated Acted and done by the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and other the Conspirators aforesaid against our Sovereign Lord the KING His Crown and Dignity and against the Laws and Sta tutes of this Kingdom Of all which Treasons Crimes and Offences the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament Assembled do in the Name of themselves and of all the Commons of England Impeach the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And the said Commons by protestation saving to themselves the liberty of exhibiting at any time hereafter any other Accusations or Impeachments against the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them And also of replying to the Answers which they and every of them shall make to the Premises or any of them or to any other Accusation or Impeachment which shall be by them Exhibited as the cause according to Course and Proceedings of Parliament shall require do pray that the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford William Lord Petre Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour and John Lord Bellasis and every of them be put to Answer all and every the Premises And that such Proceedings Examinations Trials and Judgments may be upon them and every of them had and used as shall be agreeable to Lâ—v and Justice and Course of Parliament The Humble Answer of William Viscount of Stafford now Prisoner in His Majesties Tower of London to the Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Misdemeanors exhibited against him and others to the Right Honorable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament by the Knights Citizens and Burgesses in Parliament assembled in the name of themselves and of the Commons of England THe said Viscount saving to himself all advantage and benefit of Exceptions to the generality incertainty and insufficiency of the said Impeachment most humbly beseeching their Lordships thereof to take due notice and thereunto at all times to have a just regard He answereth and saith That he is not Guilty of all or any of the Offences charged against him by the said Impeachment and for his Tryal humbly and willingly putteth himself upon his Peers no ways doubting but that by the Grace of God and their Lordships impartial Justice he shall make his Innocence appear All which he most humbly submitteth unto their Lordships further Consideration Stafford Lord High Steward Gentlemen of the House of Commons be pleased to proceed Then Mr. Serjeant Maynard one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began as followeth My Lords MAy it please your Lordships By the Command of the House of Commons who have imposed upon Us this Task we are here to Prosecute this great Charge against the Prisoner the Lord at the Bar. My Lords There are two Parts that are in this great Charge there is a General which is the Subversion of the whole Nation the King Himself to be Murdered the Protestant Religion to be Suppressed War to be introduced and those other things that are expressed in the Articles This General is charged in particular upon this Lord And my Lords it was in consideration how far it was fit to meddle with this General at this particular Tryal For if this Lord be guilty of such Crimes it will
of the Reign of our said Lord now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly and traiterously devised composed and writ two other Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of the said French King to the intent that he the said Monsieur Le Chese should intreat procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveraign Lord the King from the aforesaid French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom of England then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And that the aforesaid Edward Coloman in further prosecution of his Treasons and Traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid afterwards to wit the same Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our said now Lord the King the aforesaid several Letters from the said Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did send into Parts beyond the Seas there to be delivered to the said Monsieur Le Chese And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the First Day of December in the Twenty Seventh Year of the Reign of our Soveraign Lord CHARLES the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid one Letter from the aforesaid Mounsieâ—r Lâ— Chesâ— in answer to one of the said Letters so by him the said Edward Coleman writ and to the said Monsieur Lâ— Cheâ—e to be sent first mentioned falsly subtilly and traiterously received and that Letter so in answer received the Day and Year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of Saint Margaret Westminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously did inspect and read over and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman the Letter aforesaid so by him in answer received in his custody and possession the day and year last aforesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously detained concealed and kept By which said Letter the said Monsieur Le Chese the day and year last abovesaid at the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid signified and promised to the said Edward Coleman to obtain for him the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence And that the aforesaid Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the Tenth day of December in the abovesaid Twenty seventh Year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did relate and declare his traiterous Designs and Purposes aforesaid to one Monsieur Roâ—vigni then Envoy Extraordinary from the French King to our said most Serene King at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid residing to move and excite him the said Envoy Extraordinary with him the said Edward Coleman in his Treasons aforesaid to partake And the sooner to fulfil and compleat those his wicked Treasons and traiterous imaginations and purposes aforesaid he the said Edward Coleman afterward to wit December 19. in the abovesaid 27 th year of the Reign of our said Lord Charles the Second now King of England c. at the aforesaid Parish of S. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid advisedly maliciously subtilly and traiterously did devise compose and write three other Letters to be sent to one Sir William Throgmorton Knt. then a Subject of our now Lord the King of this Kingdom of England and residing in France in Parts beyond the Seas to sollicite him the aforesaid Monsieur Le Chese to procure obtain of the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence aforesaid And those Letters last mentioned afterwards to wit the day and year last abovesaid from the aforesaid Parish of St. Margaret Westminster in the County of Middlesex aforesaid to the same Sir William Throgmorton in France aforesaid falsly and traiterously did send and cause to be delivered against the duty of his Allegiance and against the Peace of our said now Lord the King his Crown and Dignity and against the Form of the Statute in such case made and provided Wherefore 〈◊〉 was commanded the Sheriff of the County aforesaid that he should not omit c but that he should take him if c. to answer c And now to wit on Saturday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edw. Coleman under the Custody of Will. Richardson Gent Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate by vertue of the King 's Writ of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. into whose custody before then for the cause aforesaid he was committed to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the Marshal c. and presently of the Premisses to him above imposed being asked how he will thereof be acquitted saith that he is in no wise thereof guilty and thereof for good and evil doth put himself upon the Country Therefore let a Jury thereupon come before our Lord the King at Westminster on Wednesday next after fifteen days of St. Martin and who c. to recognize c. because c. the same day is given to the said Edward Coleman c. under the custody of the said Keeper of the Gaol of our said Lord the King of Newgate aforesaid in the mean time committed to be safely kept until c. At which Wednesday next after fifteen days of St Martin before our Lord the King at Westminster came the aforesaid Edward Coleman under custody of the aforesaid keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid by vertue of a Writ of our Lord the King of Habeas Corpus ad Subjiciend c. to the Bar here brought in his proper person who is committed to the aforesaid Keeper of the Kings Gaol of Newgate aforesaid And the Jurors of the Jury aforesaid by the Sheriff of the County aforesaid hereunto impannelled being called came who being chosen tryed and sworn to speak the Truth upon the Premisses say upon their Oaths that the aforesaid Edward Coleman is guilty of the High Treason aforesaid in the Indictment aforesaid specified in manner and Form as by the said Indictment above against him his supposed and that the aforesaid Edward Coleman at the time of perpetration of the High Treason aforesaid or at any time afterwards had no Goods Chattels Lands or Tenements to the knowledge of the Jurors aforesaid And the aforesaid Edward Coleman
me to the White Horse in Ridgley and there when I came to him he told me I knew as much of the Plot as he I told him I was innocent of the thing he swore God damn him that I knew as much as he Then I told him if he knew no more than I did he knew no more than my Lord Mayor's great Horse did Then he took me aside Come says he you are a poor man and live poorly I can put you in a way whereby you may live gallantly I will give you 50 l. in hand if so be you will do so and so and 50 l. more when the thing is done L. H. Stew. What do you mean by so and so Morrall To swear against Mr. Howard Sir James Symons and several other Gentlemen of the Country L. H. Stew. Did he offer you any mony to swear against my Lord Stafford Morrall No I did not hear him mention any thing of him L. H. Stew. But he offered you mony to swear against Symons and Howard Morrall Yes my Lord and Herbert Aston my Lord Aston's Kinsman L. H. Stew. What were you to swear Morrall That they were at such a Meeting at Mr. Herbert Aston's upon the Conspiracy of the Plot. L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any thing Managers No set him by Then another Witness stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Samuel Holt. L. H. Stew. What Profession are you L. Stafford Pray my Lords ask him whether Dugdale would perswade him to swear that which he knew not L. H. Steward What Profession are you of Holt. A Protestant of the Church of England L. H. Stew. What Trade Holt. A Blacksmith L. H. Stew. Where do you live Holt. At Tixal L. H. Stew. Are you my Lord Aston's Servant Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What say you Holt. My Lords he sent a man and a Horse for me to Stafford to the Star L. H. Stew. Who did Holt. Mr. Dugdale did And there I waited upon him a good while At length he came and told me he must speak with me privately so he told me if I would swear that VValter Moor carried Evers away he would give me 40 l. And he bid me not be afraid to swear for fear of my Lord Aston for he would hire me an Horse and get me to London and place me that where I got one shilling I should g et five L. H. Stew. Did you know Evers Holt. Yes my Lords I have seen him L. H. Stew. Do you know when he went away from Tixal Holt. No my Lords L. H. Stew. What else can you say Holt. Nothing else L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No. L. Stafford T' e next thing I go upon is that Stephen Dugdale at the Tryal of the five Jesuits swore That he acquainted Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godsrey the Munday or Tuesday after which Mr. Sambidge denies And in order to that I call Mr. Sambidge but if your Lordships please I shall first prove that hâ— swore it then Where is Mr. Lydcott who stood up I desire to ask him whether Dugdale did swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits that he acquainted Mr. Sambidge with the Letter about the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey L. H. Stew. You fellow Witness My Lord. L. H. Stew. What is your Name VVitness John Lydcott L. H. Stew. How do you live Lydcott I am a Fellow of Kings Colledge in Cambridge L. H. Stew. What do you come to say Lydcott I don't know my Lords what my Lord will ask me Sir VVill. Jones My Lords before you enter into the examination of this man we desire to ask him a Question or two Mr Serj. Mayn Whose Servant are you or were you lately Lydcott I am Fellow of Kings Colledge Mr. Serj. Maynard But whom did you serve lately were you never Secretary to a Lord Lydcott Yes I was Mr. Serj. Mayn To what Lord Lydcott To my Lord Castlemain Sir L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Lydcott Of the Church of England and always was nay I can't say always for I was bred up a Presbyterian my Father was a Colonel under Monk L. Stafford Mr. Lydcott I ask whether you did not hear Mr. Dugdale swear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Mr. Serj. Mayn I desire one favour my Lords my Lord Stafford asks Questions to lead the Witness pray let him ask his Questions more generally L. H. Stew. You say you are a Protestant Lydcott Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When did you last receive the Sacrament Lydcott When I was last at Cambridge No not so for it is not above a year ago that I was there L. H. Stew. When then did you receive the Sacrament Lydcott I do not exactly remember my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord I would be glad to know what is the Question your Lordship calls him for that your Lordship may not ask the Question but by me L. Stafford My Lords I desire to know for my part I know not what his Answer will be whether he did hear at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Dugdale swear he had communicated the news of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's death which was on the Saturday on the Tuesday after to any people and to whom L. H. Stew. Were you at the Tryal of the five Jesuits Lydcott Yes I was L. H. Stew. Did you hear Dugdale swear there and give his Testimony Lydcott Yes I did L. H. Stew. Do you remember what Dugdale swore then Lydcott Very well L. H. Steward What was it Lydcott My Lords Mr. Dugdale spoke of a Letter that came down to my Lord Aston's on the Munday and he imparted it on the Tuesday after at an Ale-house to one Mr. Sambidge and Mr. Philips This was also at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal which I took notice of more particularly because I had occasion to take some Notes there L. H. Stew. What use do you make of this my Lord L. Stafford If that be allowed to be so then I will call no more Witnesses otherwise I have more L. H. Stew. Call them all Lord Stafford Then call Mr. Charles Gifford Mr. Serj. Mayn Pray my Lords give me leave to ask this young Scholar one Question before he goes By whose commendation or means did you come into that Colledge Lydcott By Election from Eaton Mr. Serj. Mayn Who promoted you Lydcott One Mr. Doyley now Senior Fellow of Kings Colledge it was his Election Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question He says he went to take Notes by whose direction did he go to take Notes at Sir George Wakeman's Tryal Lydcott It was for my own curiosity L. H. Stew. Friend 't is all one as if you were upon your Oath and as penal to you by whose direction did you go Lydcott It was partly my own curiosity and partly to see what Evidence was against my Lord for my Lord Castlemain thought himself concerned as
you could give an account of every day Lydcot I did not think any Question of this Nature would come on the stage there is my Lords Steward can give a very good account of this by his Account Books which are all ready to be produced he can tell where my Lord was by laying out such and such moneys And 't is an hard thing to give a Testimony after so many years of a thing that we thought not would ever be a Question L. H. Steward Let us see your Notes Lydcot My Lords I will read it to your Lordships L. H. Steward When was this written Lydcot I took this out of another Book L. H. Steward When Lydcot Lately since Mr. Turbervill's Narrative came out Sir Will. Jones Oh I desire that may be observed L. Stafford If your Lordships please I desire that he may bring his Books Oh oh will not condemn me but Law and Justice I am not to be run down with Oh oh or what such impudent Villains as these say L. H. Stew. Read what you have there Lydcot From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. where we staid three weeks and arrived thence at London January 24. there we staid till May 73. and from thence we went to Liege again in June and from Liege we set forth to London in August and returned October the 3d. 73. L. H. Stew. Were you all the while between August and October in London Lydcot I am morally certain that I did not go from my Lord all that time L. H. Stew. Where were you after October Lydcot Which October if your Lordship please L. H. Stew. October 73. Lydcot At Liege for we returned to Liege at October the 3d. and then after this my Lord sent me into England I left him at Liege and from thence I set out for England and in January I returned to Liege which was the greatest part of time that I was ever absent from him L. H. Stew. And was he at Liege are you sure all that time from October to January Lydcot Yes except he fled For I sent Letters by the Foreign Post and received Letters by the Foreign Post every week And his Account-Books will speak it Sir W. Jones My Lords we desire to ask him one Question since he can give so exact an account whether my Lord Castlemain was in England 72 and how much of that year Lydcot Yes Sir W. Jones How many months of the year 72 was he in England Lydcot I read it before We arrived from Liege to London January 24. 72. and staid at London till May 73. L. H. Stew. But where was my Lord all the year 72 Lydcot Pray my Lords do you mean New stile or Old stile L. H. Steward When I speak of his being at London I mean the stile of the Countrey Sir William Jones Then under favour he speaks of the latter part of the year I desire to know whether my Lord for all the former part of the year was in England L. H. Stew. Where was my Lord in December 72. and in November before that and in all the year up backwards Lydcot My Lords I have told you the whole year L. H. Steward But where was my Lord from January 71. to January 72 Lydcot In 71. June 19. New stile we came to London and returned in September to Liege from Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. and arrived at London January 24. L. H. Stew. He runs past the time Sir Will. Jones My Lords we ask him a plain Question but he does not answer it he slips over the time that we desire your Lordships to ask him about L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships that it may be made plain that there may nothing be said afterwards that it was not plain Lydcot Sir Do you propose any thing to me and I will answer it Sir Will. Jones Answer not us answer my Lords Lydcot I desire any body may peruse my Notes if they please L. H. Stew. Pray Sir answer the Question whichin very short terms is this where my Lord Castlemain was all the whole year 72. Lydcot Well my Lords I will I can but read it over again From Liege we set forth to Paris January 1. 72. L. H. Stew. Are not you a rare Fellow now Lydcot My Lords I understand it according to the stile of that Country when I am there and of this place when I am here L. H. Stew. Answer me according to our stile Lydcot This that I have written here in the Book out of which I took it hath been written ever since that time and I did not think I should er'e be called to account about it L. H. Stew. Begin January the 1st 71. Lydcot We went from Liege to Paris where we staid about a week or such a time and we arrived at London January 24. that is the Old stile and staid at London till May 8. 73. L. H. Stew. That is impossible for you ' scape a year and a half to together Lydcot My Lord was here in England in January L. H. Stew. You begin very gravely with January stylo veteri that you came from Liege and so January 24. stylo veteri you came to London Lydcot When I speak of any style I understand it according to the style of the Country L. H. Stew. But in your account what is become of all the time from January 71. to January 72. say and swear if you can where my Lord was all that time Lydcot He must be in London L. H. Stew. Can you take it upon your Oath that my Lord was in London from January 71. stylo veteri to May 73. stylo veteri Lydcot I cannot know how to count better than I have done L. Stafford Mr. Turbervill says my Lord Castlemain was in 73. at Powis-Castle I beseech your Lordships this man may be asked and that without any interruption where my Lord was that year Sir Will. Jones With your Lordships favour I must desire your Lordships to ask Mr. Turbervill whether he did say positively the year â—3 for if my Ears and my Notes do not fail me he said As he remembred and that is the reason why we ask about the year 72. Mr. Turbervill My Lords I do not say positively nor cannot which year it was Lydcot My Lords I do stand upon it that he was in London January 72. and went away May 73. L. H. Stew. What becomes of the mean time between January 71. and May 73 Lydcot My Lords I explain my self as well as I can L. H. Stew My Lord Stafford will you call any more Witnesses L. Stafford Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Call them then Earl of Shaftsbury My Lord High Steward I desire my Lord Stafford may be asked how many Witnesses my Lord hath more for it now grows late L. H. Steward My Lord I desire to know how many Witnesses you have more L. Stafford Three or four I can't well tell how many Lords Adjourn Adjourn
his right name or addition is likewise a just Cause to arrest the Judgment There is likewise another Question how far it may be valued I know not I submit it as I do all to your Lordships Though I am tried upon the Act of 25 Edw. 3 d. yet there is nothing more in that Act than what is included in the Act of the 13 th of this King And I humbly conceive my Lords by that Act and the last Proviso in it a Peer that is accused and found Guilty of the Crimes therein mentioned is to lose his Seat in Parliament those are the words and since 't is so put down in the Act it is so to be understood and that is all the punishment And I humbly demand your Lordships Judgment upon these points whether it be so or no And humbly demand your Lordships Judgments upon these Points whether it be so or no Lord High Steward Has your Lordship any more to say Lord Stafford No my Lords I submit to your Lordships and desire your Judgment in these Points Then the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Committee of Commons returned to their own House and the Speaker having reassumed the Chair the whole Body of the House went with their Speaker to the Bar of the House of Lords to demand Judgment of High Treason against William Viscount Stafford upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England in Parliament in the name of the Commons in Parliament and of all the Commons of England The Commons with their Speaker went back to their House Then the Lords took into consideration what Judgment was to be given upon William Viscount Stafford and it was moved that he might be beheaded After some debate the Judges were asked whether if any other Judgment than the usual Judgment for High Treason were given upon him it would attaint his Blood The Judges were of opinion that the Judgment for High Treason appointed by Law is to be drawn hanged and quartered and in the Courts and Proceedings below they can take no notice of any Judgment for High Treason but that Then Sir Creswell Levinz the Kings Attorney-General desired to be heard on his Majesties behalf which the House gave leave for him to be who said he knew no other Judgment by Law for High Treason but Drawing Hanging and Quartering if any other Judgment were given it would be prejudicial to His Majesty and be a Question in the inferiour Courts as to his Attainder of High Treason Whereupon their Lordships ordered That the Lord High Steward do pronounce the ordinary Judgment of Death upon the Lord Viscount Stafford as the Law hath appointed in Cases of High Treason And a Message was sent to the House of Commons from their Lordships by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House That their Lordships are going presently into Westminster-Hall to give Judgment against William Viscount Stafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair The Committee of Commons appointed for the Management of the Evidence against the Prisoner with the rest of the Commons went into Westminster-Hall to the Court there erected to be present when the Lords gave Judgment of High Treason against him upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England After a short time their Lordships were adjourned into Westminster-Hall coming in their former Order into the Court there erected where being seated and the Lord High Steward being on the Wool-sack attended by Garter principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Eight of the Serjeants at Arms kneeling with their Maces the Ninth Macer making proclamation for Silence which being done the Lord High Steward gave Judgment upon the Prisoner as followeth Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford THat which your Lordship hath said in Arrest of Judgment hath been found by my Lords upon due Consideration had of it to be of no moment at all It is no Essential part of any Trial That the Prisoner should hold up his Hand at the Bar there is no Record ever made of it when it is done the only use of it is to shew the Court who the Prisoner is when that is apparent the Court does often proceed against him though he refuse to hold up his Hand at the Bar therefore the omission of that Ceremony in this Case is no legal Exception as all the Judges have declared And as to the Proviso's in the Statute of the 13th year of this King their Lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this Case forasmuch as the Proceedings against your Lordship are not grounded upon that Statute but upon the Statute of the 25. E. 3. And yet if the Proceedings had been upon the latter Statute the Proviso's therein could have done your Lordship no service at all My part therefore which remains is a very sad one for I never yet gave Sentence of Death upon any man and am extremely sorry that I must begin with your Lordship Who would have thought that a person of your Quality of so Noble an Extraction of so considerable Estate and Fortune so eminent a Sufferer in the late ill Times so interested in the Preservation of the Government so much obliged to the Moderation of it and so personally obliged to the King and his Royal Father for their particular Favours to you should ever have entred into so Infernal a Conspiracy as to contrive the Murder of the King the Ruin of the State the Subversion of Religion and as much as in you lâ—y the Destruction of all the Souls and Bodies in three Christian Nations And yet the Impeachment of the House of Commons amounts to no less a Charge and of this Charge their Lordships have found you Guilty That there hath been a General and Desperate Conspiracy of the Papists and that the Death of the King hath been all along one chief part of the Conspirators Design is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting What was the meaning of all those Treatises which were publisht about two years since against the Oath of Allegiance in a time when no man dreamt of such a Controversie What was the meaning of Father Conyers's Sermon upon the same Subject but only because there was a Demonstration of Zeal as they call it intended against the Person of the King which the scruples arising from that Oath did somewhat hinder To what purpose were all the Correspondencies with Foreign Nations The Collections of Money among the Fathers abroad and at home What was the meaning of their Governing themselves here by such Advices as came frequently from Paris and Saint Omers And how shall we expound that Letter which came from Ireland to assure the Fathers here that all things were in a readiness there too as soon as the Blow should be given Does any man now begin to doubt how London came to be Burnt Or by what ways and means poor Justice Godfrey fell And is it not
apparent by these Instances that such is the frantick Zeal of some Bigotted Papists that they resolve No means to advance the Catholick Cause shall be left unattempted though it be by Fire and Sword My Lord As the Plot in General is most manifest so your Lordships part in it hath been too too plain What you did at Paris and continued to do at Tixal in Staffordshire shews a settled purpose of mind against the King and what you said at London touching Honest Will shews you were acquainted with that Conspiracy against the Kings Life which was carrying on here too And in all this there was a great Degree of Malice for your Lordship at one time called the King Heretick and Traytor to God and at another time you revil'd him for misplacing his Bounty and rewarding none but Traytors and Rebels And thus you see that which the Wise man forewarn'd you of is come upon you Curse not the King no not in thy heart for the Birds of the Air shall reveal and that which hath wings will declare the matter Three things I shall presume to recommend to your Lordships consideration In the first place Your Lordship now sees how it hath pleased God to leave you so far to your self that you are fallen into the snare and into the pit into that very pit which you were digging for others Consider therefore that God Almighty never yet left any man who did not first leave him In the next place Think a little better of it than hitherto you have done what kind of Religion that is in which the Blind Guides have been able to lead you on into so much ruin and destruction as is now like to befall you In the last place I pray your Lordship to consider That true Repentance is never too late A devout penitential sorrow joyn'd with an humble and hearty Confession is of mighty power and efficacy both with God and man There have been some of late who have refus'd to give God the Glory of his Justice by acknowledging the Crimes for which they were condemned nay who have been taught to believe that 't is a mortal Sin to confess that Crime in publick for which they have been absolv'd in private and so have not dar'd to give God that Glory which otherwise they would have done God forbid your Lordship should rest upon Forms God forbid your Lordship should be found among the number of those poor mistaken souls whom the first thing that undeceives is Death it self Perhaps your Lordship may not much esteem the Prayers of those whom you have long been taught to miscal Hereticks But whether you do or no I am to assure your Lordship That all my Lords here even they that have condemned you will never cease to pray for you that the end of your life may be Christian and Pious how Tragical soever the means are that must bring you thither And now my Lord this is the last time that I can call you My Lord for the next words I am to speak will Attaint you The Judgment of the Law is and this Court doth Award That YOU go to the place from whence you came from thence you must be drawn upon a Hurdle to the place of Execution When you come there you must be hang'd by the Neck but not till you are dead for you must be cut down alive your Privy-Members must be cut off and your Bowels ript up before your Face and thrown into the Fire Then your Head must be severed from your Body and your Body divided into four Quarters and these must be at the disposal of the King And God Almighty be merciful to your Soul Prisoner My Lords I humbly beseech you give me leave to speak a few words I do give your Lordships hearty Thanks for all your Favours to me I do here in the presence of God Almighty declare I have no Malice in my Heart to them that have condemned me I know not who they are nor desire to know I forgive them all and beseech your Lordships all to pray for me My Lords I have one humble Request to make to your Lordships and that is my Lords That the little short time I have to live a Prisoner I may not be a close Prisoner as I have been of late but that Mr. Lieutenant may have an Order that my Wife and Children and Friends may come at me I do humbly beg this Favour of your Lordships which I hope you will be pleased to give me Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I believe I may with my Lords leave tell you one thing further That my Lords as they proceed with Rigour of Justice so they proceed with all the Mercy and Compassion that may be And therefore my Lords will be humble Suitors to the King that He will remit all the Punishment but the taking off your Head Prisoner Weeping My Lords your Justice does not make me cry but your Goodness Then the Lord High Steward broke his Staff and the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Commons returned to their House and the Prisoner with the Ax born before him with the Edg towards him it being carried contrarily during his Trial was sent back to the Tower His Majesty afterwards ordered the Lord High Chancellor to issue out under the Great Seal of England the following Writs for Executing the said late Viscount Stafford the first being to the Lieutenant of the Tower to deliver him on the Twenty ninth of December 1680. between Nine and Eleven a Clock in the Forenoon at the usual place without the Tower-Gate to the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex and the other being for them then and there to receive him into their Custody and to lead him to the usual place upon Tower-Hill and there to cause his Head to be cut off and severed from his Body Which Writs were in Form following CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London salutem Cum Willus Vicecomes Stafford per Communes Regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offensis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in praesenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triat ' convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjucat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Cumque praedictus Vicecomes Stafford in Turri nostra London sub custodia tua detent ' existit Precipimus tibi per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem instantis mensis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante Meridiem ejusdem diei ipsum Vicecomitem Stafford usque locum usualem extra portam Turris predictae ducas ac ipsum Vicecomitibus Civitatis nostrae London Middlesex adtunc
ibidem deliberes Quibus quidem Vicecomitibus nos per aliud breve eis inde direct ' precipimus predictum Vicecomitem Stafford adtunc ibidem recipere ut fiat executio Judicii predicti modo forma prout dictis Vicecomitibus London Middlesex per aliud breve nostrum predictum precepimus Et hoc nullatenus omittas sub periculo incumbente Aliquo Judicio Lege Ordinatione seu Mandato praeantea habit ' fact ' ordinat ' seu dat' in contrarium non obstante Teste meipso apud Westm decimo octavo die Decembris Anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo BARKER CAROLUS Secundus Dei gratia Angliae Scotiae Franciae Hiberniae Rex fidei defensor c. Vic. London Vic. Middlesex salutem Cum Will. Vicecomes Stafford per Communes regni nostri Angliae in Parliamento assemblat ' de alta proditione necnon diversis aliis criminibus offenfis per ipsum perpetrat ' commissis impetit ' fuit Ac superinde per Dominos Temporales in presenti Parliamento nostro convent ' triatus convict ' debita juris forma attinct ' fuit morti adjudicat ' existit Cujus quidem Judicii executio adhuc restat facienda Precipimus vobis per presentes firmiter injungendo mandamus quod in super vicesimum nonum diem hujus instantis Decembris inter horas nonam undecimam ante meridiem ejusdem diei dictum Vicecomitem Stafford extra Portam Turris nostrae London vobis tunc ibidem deliberandum prout per aliud breve Locumtenenti Turris nostrae London directum precepimus in custodiam vestram adtunc ibidem recipiatis ipsum sic in custodia vestra existentem statim usque usualem locum super le Tower-hill ducatis Ac caput ipsius Willi. Vicecomitis Stafford adtunc ibidem amputari ac a corpore suo omnino separari faciatis aliquo Judicio Lege Ordinatione seu Mandato praeantea habit ' fact ' ordinat ' seu dat' in contrarium non obstante Et hoc sub periculo incumbente nullatenus omittatis Teste meipso apud Westm decimo octavo die Decembris Anno regni nostri tricesimo secundo BARKER There were two Writs to the Sheriffs both alike verbatim one delivered in London the other in Middlesex Whereupon the Sheriffs doubting whether that was a sufficient Authority for them to execute the Prisoner by Beheading only the Sentence of Death being otherwise given petitioned the Lords in Parliament to take the Premises into consideration and to make such Order as should be agreeable to Right and Justice as by the following Petition appears TO THE Right Honourable the LORDS TEMPORAL in PARLIAMENT Assembled The Humble Petition of Slingsby Bethel Esq and Henry Cornish Esq Sheriffs of London and Middlesex Sheweth THAT your Petitioners have received a Writ under the Great Seal of England Reciting that Judgment had been given by your Lordships against William Viscount Stafford for High Treason and diverse other Crimes and Offences upon the Impeachment of the Commons in Parliament Assembled and commanding your Petitioners to cause the said Viscount Staffords Head to be Severed from his Body upon the Twenty Ninth Day of this instant December notwithstanding any Judgment Law Ordinance or Command to the contrary That your Petitioners have not as yet Received any Command from your Lordships for Executing the said Judgment May it therefore please your Lordships to take the Premisses into Consideration and to make such Order therein as shall be agreeable to Right and Justice And your Petitioners shall always pray c. Upon which Petition the Lords did Declare as followeth Die Martis 21 Decembris 1680. UPon Application from the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex making some Scruples concerning the Execution of the late Lord Viscount Stafford which were sound by this House to be unnecessary This House do Declare That the Kings Writ ought to be obeyed The said Sheriffs likewise made Application to the House of Commons upon the aforesaid matter who made the following Resolve Die Jovis 23 Decembris 1680. REsolved c. That this House is content that the Sheriffs of London and Middlesex do Execute William late Viscount Stafford by Severing his Head from his Body only Wednesday December 29. 1680. ABout the hour of Ten in the Morning the Sheriffs received the Prisoner according to the Command of the Writs from the Lieutenant of the Tower and brought him upon the Scaffold which was erected on Tower-Hill The Prisoner took a Paper out of his pocket and putting off his Hat read it as his Speech which the very same day before Two of the Clock came out in Print as his Speech and he delivered divers Copies signed by himself to Mr. Sheriff Cornish and other Gentlemen about him He then desired he might have liberty to pray in his own way which being granted he kneeled down by the Block and taking out of his pocket another Paper he read a Latin Prayer which done he gave the Paper to Mr. Sheriff Bethel and then spoke to the People about the Scaffold to this Effect God bless you all Gentlemen God preserve His Majesty He is aâ—good a Prince as ever govern'd you Obey Him as faithfully as I have done and God bless you all Gentlemen Then he stripp'd himself to his Wastcoat and after some â—ew short private Discourses with his Friends he laid down his Neck on the Block and stretched himself The Executioner being demanded by the Sheriffs whether he had any Sign he answered No. Then the Prisoner raised up his Head and said He had no Sign to give but the Executioner might take his opportunity and laid his Neck on the Block again After which in a short time the Executioner did his Office by Severing his Head from his Body and holding up the Head in his Hand carried it about the Scafsold shewing it to the People and saying Here is the Head of a Traitor The Body was put into a Coffin and conveyed to the Tower FINIS
of the Tower of London bring forth thy Prisoner William Viscount Stafford upon pain and peril shall fall thereon God save the King Whereupon the Lieutenant of the Tower brought the Prisoner to the Bar. Usher of the Black Rod. My Lord Stafford must kneel which he did Lord high Steward Rise my Lord. Then he Arose and stood at the Bar and the Lord High Steward spake to him as followeth My Lord Viscount Stafford THE Commons of England Assembled in Parliament have Impeach'd your Lordship of High Treason and you are brought this Day to the Bar to be Tryed upon that Impeachment You are not Try'd upon the Indictment of Treason found by the Grand Jury tho there be that too in the Case But you are Prosecuted and Pursued by the Loud and Dreadsul Complaints of the Commons and are to be Try'd upon the Presentment which hath been made by the Grand Inquest of the whole Nation In this so Great and Weighty Cause you are to be Judg'd by the whole Body of the House of Peers The Highest and the Noblest Court in This or perhaps in any other part of the Christian World Here you may be sure no False Weights or Measures ever will or can be found Here the Ballance will be exactly kept and all the Grains of Allowance which your Case will bear will certainly be put into the Scales But as it is impossible for my Lords to Condemn the Innocent so 't is equally Impossible that They should clear the Guilty If therefore you have been Agitated by a Restless Zeal to Promote that which you call the Catholick Cause If this Zeal have Engaged you in such Deep and Black Designs as you are Charged with and this Charge shall be fully Prov'd Then you must Expect to Reap what you have Sown for every Work must and ought to Receive the Wages that are due to it Hear therefore with Patience what shall be said against you for you shall have full Time and Scope to Answer it Aud when you come to make your Defence you shall have a very fair and equal Hearing In the mean time the best Entrance upon this Service will be to begin with Reading of the Charge Lord High Steward My Lord if your Lordship find your self infirm and unable to stand your Lordship may have a Chair to ease your self whilst the Charge is Reading and a Chair was brought accordingly and his Lordship sate thereon Clerk of the Parliament Read the Charge Articles of Impeachment of High Treason and other high Crimes and Offences against William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford and Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis now Prisoners in the Tower of London 1. THat for many years now last past there hath been contrived and carried on by Papists a Trayterous and execrable Conspiracy and Plot within this Kingdom of England and other places to Alter Change and Subvert the Ancient Government and Laws of this Kingdom and Nation and to Suppress the True Religion therein Established and to Extirpate and Destroy the Professors thereof which said Plot and Conspiracy was contrived and carried on in divers Places and by several ways and means and by a great number of Persons of several Qualities and Degrees who Acted therein and intended thereby to Execute and Accomplish the aforesaid Wicked and Traiterous Designs and Purposes That the said William Earl of Powis William Viscount Stafford Henry Lord Arundel of Wardour William Lord Petre and John Lord Bellasis together with Philip Howard commonly called Cardinal of Norfolk Thomas White alias Whitebread commonly called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Richard Strange lately called Provincial of the Jesuits in England Vincent commonly called Provincial of the Dominicans in England James Corker commonly called President of the Benedictines Sir John Warner alias Clare Baronet William Harcourt John Kenis Nicholas Blundel Poole Edward Mico Thomas Bedingfield alias Benefield Basil Langworth Charles Peters Richard Peters John Conyers Sir George Wakeman Thomas Fenwick Dominick Kelly Fitzgerald Evers Sir Thomas Preston William Lovel Jesuits Lord Baltamore John Carrel John Townely Richard Langhorn William Fogarty Thomas Penny Matthew Medbourn Edward Coleman William Ireland John Grove Thomas Pickering John Smith and divers other Jesuits Priests Fryers and other Persons as false Traytors to his Majesty and this Kingdom within the time aforesaid have Traiterously Consulted Contrived and Acted to and for the accomplishing of the said wicked pernitious and Traiterous Designs and for that end did most wickedly and Traiterously agree Conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murder his Sacred Majesty and to deprive him of his Royal State Crown and Dignity and by malicious and advised speaking writing and otherwise declared such their Purposes and Intentions And also to subject this Kingdom and Nation to the Pope and to his Tyrannical Government And to seize and share amongst themselves the Estates and Inheritances of his Majesties Protestant Subjects And to Erect and Restore Abbeys Monasteries and other Convents and Societies which have been long since by the Laws of this Kingdom suppressed for their Superstition and Idolatry and to deliver up and restore to them the Lands and Possessions now vested in his Majesty and his Subjects by the Laws and Statutes of this Realm And also to Found and Erect new Monasteries and Convents and to remove and deprive all Protestant Bishops and other Ecclesiastical persons from their Offices Benefices and Preferments And by this means to destroy his Majesties Person extirpate the Protestant Religion overthrow the Rights Liberties and Properties of all his Majesties good Subjects Subvert the lawful Government of this Kingdom and subject the same to the Tyranny of the See of Rome 3. That the said Conspirators and their Complices and Confederates Traiterously had and held several Meetings Assemblies and Consultations wherein it was Contrived and Designed among them what means should be used and what Persons and Instruments should be Employed to Murder his Majesty And did then and there resolve to effect it by Poisoning Shooting Stabbing or some such like ways and means and offered Rewards and Promises of advantage to several persons to execute the same and hired and imployed several wicked persons to go to Windsor and other places where his Majesty did reside to murder and destroy his Majesty which said persons or some of them accepted such Rewards and undertook the perpetrating thereof and did actually go to the said Places for that end and purpose 4. That the said Conspirators the better to compass their Trayterous Designs have Consulted to Raise and have procured and raised Men Money Horses Arms and Ammunition and also have made Application to and Treated and Corresponded with the Pope his Cardinals Nuncioes and Agents and with other Forreign Ministers and Persons to raise and obtain Supplies of Men Money Arms and Ammunition therewith to make levy and raise War Rebellion and Tumults within this Kingdom and to Invade the same with
prove well enough that there was such a Plot but my Lords withall we did consider when the first Discovery of this Plot was made how afterwards it took cold how rumors were raised against it how there were endeavours to suppress the belief of it and therefore my Lords we do conceive that it is fit we should first settle that that there was a general Plot a Plot of such a Nature as the Articles express Some Objections we thought there might be raised because it hath been so long in the World some years now since the Discovery of it some persons that is some ten or eleven Prosecuted and Atatinted for it and therefore that might have been satisfaction enough that such a Plot there was besides that there have been publick Declarations of the Particulars to the World But being now to proceed before your Lordships in a judicial way We did think fit and we hope your Lordships will approve of it to spend some time in the Proof of the general Plot which we hope will be to the satisfaction of your Lordships and the whole World for we do not think that England only looks into this days Tryal but the whole World one way or other the whole Christian World is concerned in it My Lords after the Publication of these things which were not judicial how far your Lordships will believe them as Judges we know not we will prove it now that their Policies and Contrivances may be laid open to the World And first we offer it to your Lordships because we have made it part of the Charge And secondly we shall do it because we think your Lordships are not obliged to believe things that are in Print till we prove them by Witnesses judicially before you But the main Reason why we do it is because we would touch upon those Endeavours that have been used to make this seem as if it were a kind of State Plot I know not what to call â—t a Chimaera an Imagination and not a real thing This they laboured many ways to effect but we shall prove that it is a very real and a very true one When that Oats first made a Discovery it seems it had not that weight that we think now it will clearly have with your Lordships and had not the Murder of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey followed in the Neck of it the World as it was asleep would have lain so but that awaked us My Lords it fell out in this Case as it did in another when Cateline the Traytor was a great way off Rome and four other Lords with him Cassius Cethegus and others five in all it came to pass that as the great Orator that was at that time said Many were so ignorant that they would not think it many were so unwise they would not believe it some so ill that they would favour it some so much worse that they did Foster it but all of them in not believing it gave strength to the Conspiracy the Treason And so it did here for we look not upon our selves as discharg'd from the Treason when Discover'd but when Prevented My Lords another Reason to induce us into the Proof of the main Plot is this We do not look upon it as a particular Offence as if one Lord was only to be questioned and appear before your Lordships judicially for it he is indeed only before you at this time to receive his Tryal and your Judgment But my Lords this is a Treason of a Faction and of a general Party in the Nation 't is not this or that Lord but a great number 't is not this or that Lord that is mentioned in the Articles but the Conspiracy is of a great Faction This we do think and this makes us so earnest to press the general before your Lordships that we may give satisfaction to your Lordships and the World what this Plot hath been and how carried on every where My Lords The Consequence of that is very great for my Lords if there were a general Design and a general Plot as clearly there was for some were to act in Spain and some in France some in other places some in Ireland Scotland and England and a great number of Jesuits we have a matter of Thirty in Chase about this business I say my Lords if it be so if one Action be in one place and another in another yet if there be a common Consent to accomplish this Plot then what the one does is the Act of All and the Act of All is the Act of every one My Lords The Persons were many and the Places and Times many they acted in and the Designs which they were to accomplish and the means wherewith they were to accomplish them were many too Great and wicked were their Designs to destroy our King to take him out of the World and why upon hopes of better times to them under him that should succeed him Another part of the Design was to destroy not this or that man that stood in their way but the whole Body of the Protestants here in England not a Murder but a Massacre and a Slaughter of all whosoever they were that came near them and none were to escape for if any meant to flee they would be sure to cut them off nay not only to destroy our King though that be the greatest Offence that our Law can take hold off but to destroy our Religion and to destroy us because of our Religon To accomplish this that we may open the generals of it Arms were to be provided Men to be raised an Army was formed in effect and who to Lead and who to Command and who to pay But my Lords not only were Arms to be had here among our selves but a French Aid must be fetch'd in Assistance from France must come too Intelligences and Letters are written and Correspondencies had and Aids promised by the Ministers from thence My Lords 'T is a strange thing that English men should contrive to have an Invasion of Strangers upon their own Country and surely they are the worst Biggots in the world that were so zealous to destroy their own Nation and they were not wise sure to think that if the French did come in they should continue great Lords or great Men and yet thus it was in general It is very strange that it should enter into the heart of any man to destroy so many persons But my Lords if we look upon what did incourage them and what confirmed them in this Design and what they have published to the world about their Religion we shall not wonder at it since they tell us 't is lawful to kill an Heretick King and the King of England is an Heretick they say and so declared so that whosoever would Kill him did a lawful and pious piece of Service to God Nay not only so but a Meritorious and Glorious one too for which they may be Canonized for Saints My Lords
the Conviction of Tasborough and Price to corrupt Dugdale a principal Witness as to this Plot. I only mention these particulars my Lords and certainly as you are a great Court of Record you will take notice of them It would be a hard thing perhaps to spend the time in reading all since all of them are made known to the world already but we shall in the course of our Evidence produce them and you may read such of them as you please All the use we make of them is for the proof of the general Plot which is requisite to be done for it will be hard to believe the Prisoner Guilty of the Plot if there were no such Plot at all My Lords we shall make appear to you things which have not yet been brought into Judgment In the year 76. we shall prove by a Witness that was then abroad and discoursed with Anderton Campion Green and several other Priests and Jesuits that they did acquaint him that there would be great alteration in England ere long that the King was a Heretick and Excommunicated and might be destroyed and this Doctrine they continually and industriously preached And they further said if once the King were removed who alone stood in the way their Religion must needs flourish for this Reason as the Witnesses will speak that the Duke of York was on their side My Lords We shall prove that they had in England men no less industrious amongst them some whereof have been Executed Gavan by name who made it his business to go up and down in several Counties of this Kingdom to prove by Scripture Councils and Examples That it was a lawful undertaking to kill His Majesty These things I name as necessary in order to introduce our particular Evidence I am unwilling to dwell longer upon this point of the general Plot. I shall produce the Records and produce our several Witnesses Mr. Oats and others that will give you a full and plain Account of it My Lords Having done with the general Plot I come now to open the particular Evidence against my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. As to him my Lords our Evidence stands not upon Conjectures or upon meer Probability because this Lord is as we well know a zealous Papist and hath owned himself so but we have express particular Proofs against his Person My Lords we have one Witness to produce to your Lordships who will prove that in September 78. there was a Consult of some Priests and other Conspirators at Tixall in Staffordshire my Lord Aston's House for killing of the King where my Lord Stafford was present And by a Discourse in the same month we shall prove what reasons this Lord did give why he and their Party undertook the Murdering of the King because he said That he and many Catholâ—ck Families had no Recompence for their Loyalty but if any thing fell it was disposed of to Rebels and Traytors This he resented deeply but above all the Obligation of his Conscience and of his Religion persuaded him to it and confirmed him in his resolution to go on in this horrid Design My Lords we will go farther and prove that this Lord offered 500 l. out of his own Purse to carry on the Plot and particularly this part of it for killing the King We shall produce to your Lordships a Witness to whom he made this offer as looking upon him to be a faithful man and having received so great a Character of him from one Evers a Priest that he thought he might safely communicate the matter to him and the Argument he urged to persuade the Witness besides the 500 l. which he said upon his application to Harcouâ—t and Ireland they should pay him was this that others as well as he was employed in the same Design that it was the only way to establish the Romish Religion in England that he would lay an everlasting obligation upon all the Persons of that Persuasion and that he should not only have his Pardon but be Canonized for it My Lords This is the substance of the Testimony of the first Witness which we shall produce against my Lord Stafford and that is so express as I think it can hardly be answered My Lords Our next Witness says thus for I shall but open the substance of what they say In June or July 1678. there were several Letters from this Lord at the Bar to the Jesuits in London in which his Lordship did declare his readiness to serve them in their great Design and in June 78. the latter end of the month my Lord Stafford came to Mr. Fenwicks Chamber in Drury-Lane he went not then by the name of my Lord Stafford but by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham and there he did receive a Commission from Fenwick to be Paymaster-General of the Army which was to be raised for the carrying on the Plot. His Lordship told them he was then going into the Country but he hoped he should soon hear from them that they had done the business at least that it would be done before his Lordship did return To which Fenwick made answer Your Lordship must look after the business as well as other Persons and there will be need of some to Countenance it in Town thereupon the Lord the Prisoner at the Bar said That they had been often deceived by this Prince and been patient with him but they would bear no longer but were now resolved to do the Work without delay for their patience was worn out Several other particular Circumstances the Witnesses will acquaint your Lordships withal which I shall not take up your time with My Lords We have a third Witness as considerable and particular as any of the rest one that lived three years in the Lady Powis House had his Education there and was persuaded by that Lady and by one Morgan a Jesuit to become a Fryer and to that end was sent to Doway But not liking to continue at Doway he will tell you the reason why he escaped to France and at Paris came to his Brother a Benedictine Monk there who advised him to go for England But whilst he staid at Paris this Gentleman by the means of his Brother and other Priests grew into a great samiliarity with my Lord Stafford who was then in France and who at last came to have such a great Confidence in him that his Lordship could not hold but told him that though he had disobliged all his Friends by his going away from Doway yet he had something to propose to him which would be a means to reconcile him to hâ—s Friends and bring him into preserment and into the friendship of all good Catholicks whom he would oblige by it The Gentleman was willing to embrace so happy an opportunity and desired to know what it was could procure him so great a good My Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar told him It was a thing of very great Importance and
after having required from him all possible obligations of Secrecy he told him plainly what great benefits would accrew to himself and what advantage to the Catholick Cause if he would make himself and the Nation happy by undertaking to kill the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel to God Almighty My Lord Stafford did believe the Witnesses did embrace this proposal warmly and therefore directed him to prepare to go for England and to go before hand from Paris to Deep where he would meet him and go over with him But it seems my Lord Stafford met with some diversion for he did not keep his word with him in coming and so this Gentleman being disappointed went over without him but fearing to be called upon to the same Service he returned back again suddenly and went into the French Army My Lords We shall produce these Witnesses against the Lord at the Bar and when they have proved to your Lordships what I have opened any one who was not acquainted with the Popish party would believe they would be at a loss how to acquit themselves from this Charge All manner of foul and indirect practices have been used by them to Terrifie to Corrupt and to Scandalize our Witnesses all manner of Objections have been made to our Evidence If the Witness does not come up to speak directly to every Point we are told he says nothing at all if he speaks directly they cry he is not to be believed Thus they have a ready answer to every Witness that has been or ever shall be produced either that he says nothing Material or that nothing that he says ought to have any Credit But we doubt not by this Tryal before your Lordships if we cannot stop their mouths at least to convince all the World besides of the reality of this Plot. It will be no wonder if their Confidence goes on still to frame Cavils They are used to scandalize the Government and they cannot give it over How often has His Majesty under his Great Seal published and declared this Conspiracy How often has he press'd His Parliaments to go on to bring the Conspirators to Punishment and at the opening of this very Parliament he says plainly That he does not believe himself safe from their Designs Your Lordships also have Voted the unquestionable Truth of the Plot and so have the Commons yet these men are so hardy as still to deny the plainest Truth so confirm'd as this hath been Nay My Lords Their Malice goes yet farther for they have been so Bold as to whisper up and down and industriously to spread Reports before the Trial as if this Lord at the Bar and the rest who are Impeached should certainly be acquitted We do hope to be able to detect the Authors of this great Scandal and the Commons doubt not of your Lordships Concurrence to assist them in bringing them to their deserved Punishment This is sure the first time that ever any sort of men presumed to Reflect upon the Justice of this High and Noble Court Your Ancestors my Lords did by their Honour Courage and Justice preserve our Ancestors The advantage of which We who are descended from them do now enjoy and We shall never have occasion to doubt in the least but that your Lordships will tread in their steps You have in your hands a great Opportunity to make your Zeal for Truth and for the Protestant Religion famous to Posterity No Artifice or Malice can Create the least Jealousie in us that ever your Lordships should shew any Partiality or Injustice to the Commons of England To your Judgement this Cause is submitted and when we have your Judgement we doubt not but we shall drive Popery out of this English World My Lords We shall go on to the proof of our Cause and I hope this will be a happy day to us and the whole Protestant Interest Then Mr. Treby also one of the Committee appointed for the Management of the Evidence began as followeth My Lords THese two Learned Gentlemen have fully discharged their Province I shall proceed to call our Witnesses to give their Testimony But before we produce them your Lordships will be pleased to take notice that our Evidence will consist of Two Parts general and particular the general to shew the Universal Conspiracy the particular to shew what special part this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar had in it And though in the first part my Lord Stafford may not be particularly named yet that Evidence will be pertinent and proper for us to give in this Trial of my Lord Stafford for we charge him not with the Private Treason wherein he with his immediate Complices only might be concerned but it is a Treason of the Popish Faction or at least the Principal and Active Papists We lay it in our Articles of Impeachment That there was an Execrable Plot contrived and carried on by the Papists and that the Conspirators acted diverse Parts and in diverse places beyond Sea as well as here It was a Treason that did bestâ—ide two Lands England indeed was the thing aimed at the destruction of the Religion Government and Liberty of England was the End but the Means and Instruments were not Collected here only but part of them were to be brought in from abroad This is an Enterprise too extensive to be intirely manag'd by a Single Nobleman And though we look upon my Lord Stafford as a great Malefactor yet we cannot think him so great a Man as to be able within his own Sphere to compass this whole Design Should we not take this course of Evidence first to prove the General Plot it might be a great and just objection in my Lords mouth to say You charge 〈◊〉 with a Design of Subverting the Kingdom how is that possible to be undertaken by me and those I have had opportunity to converse and confederate with a mighty part of the Catholick World had need be engaged for such a purpose My Lords If this would be a material Objection from this Lord then will it be requisite for us to obviate and prevent the Objection by shewing first that there was such a grand and universal design of Papists in which this Lord was to co-operate for his distinct share though perhaps when we descend to our particular Evidence it will appear that his part hath been great and manag'd with malice as great as any My Lords We shall begin with a Witness a Gentleman whose Education has given him the opportunity of knowing the inside of their Affairs and we presume he will give you a satisfactory account his name is Mr. John Smith Lord High Steward What do you call him to Gentlemen Mr. Treby To the General Plot my Lords Lord Stafford May it please your Lordships I know not who he is nor his Name I humbly beseech your Lordships that this Witness who ever he be and all the rest that have any thing to
witness against me may look upon me face to face according to the words of the Statute I humbly beseech your Lordships to grant me this which I take to be according to Law and that each may give his Evidence alone and that both against me and for me one may not know what the other says Lord High Stew. My Lord You shall have all the fair proceeding that can be Lord Stafford The Law says my Accusers must look me face to face I desire to have the words read Lord High Steward Your Lordship may see him there where he stands up Then Mr. Smith turned and looked upon my Lord Stafford Lord Safford I do see him but do not know him Lord High Steward Swear him Clerk The Evidence that you shall give in the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and the Contents of this Book Lord High Steward Your Lordship observes he is not brought as a particular Witness against your Lordship but to prove the general Design of your Party Lord Stafford 'T is still concerning me Lord High Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford which he did and now tell your Evidence Mr. Treby This is Mr. Smith my Lords And that which we would examine this Witness to is the general Design of the Plot what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond Sea the Gentleman is able to understand the general Question Mr. Smith My Lords I remember very well when I went first into France I came acquainted with Abbot Montague Father Gascoyn and several other Popish Priests and Jesuits who often discoursed with me and told me if I would make my self a Catholick I should have an Employment amongst them there and afterwards in England for they did not doubt but the Popish Religion would come in very soon upon which I asked his Lordship the Abbot one day what reason he had to believe it he told me two reasons first that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of Religion by which they should bring it in without noise and secondly that the Gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own Religion and the Antiquity of theirs and the advantages that were to be had by it These Reasons Abbot Montague gave me There was one Father Bennet and others that told me the chief reason was their party was very strong in England and in a few Years they would bring it in right or wrong All this would not prevail with me to turn Papist and I lived among them several Years At last I had a design to go to Rome and as I went I had a design to go to Provence and so into Italy where there was one Cardinal Grimaldi coming thorough the Town and the Jesuits having a great School there I was curious to go to the School and they were very desirous I should tarry for some time in the Town I did and they made much of me and told me much to the same substance what assurances they had of their Religion coming into England At last they had a desire I should discourse with the Cardinal which I did and he made much of me and he it was that perverted me to the Romish Religion upon this the Cardinal shewed me a pair of Hangings that were in his House which he said did belong to the Queen Mother and were bought in Paris and he told me he was acquainted with many of the Nobility in England and that he had great assurance the Popish Religion would prevail and he told me there was but one in the way and though that man was a good natured man yet they could not so far prevail upon him but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way but at last I left this place and went to Rome where I lived some years in the English Jesuits Colledge there and when I had lived there five years I came to be Prefect of several Rooms there which are the Scholars Lodgings and places of Study I have heard it there often disputed in their own Colledge both preach'd and privately exhorted that the King of England was an Heretick and that there was no King really reigning and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action Lord High Steward Who was that that said so Mr. Treby Name the persons Mr. Smith Father Anderton Rector of the Colledge who was a very good Scholar Father Mumford and one Father Campion but chiefly one Father Southwell one of the chief of the Jesuits And I doubting of the truth of that Opinion they did shew me several of their Books there and directed me to some passages of Mariana Vasquez and Bellarmine which I have since published to the world wherein they did assert it as a true Doctrine and as Christian Doctrine what the Fathers told me and this was never condemned at Rome Besides my Lords when I was coming from Rome with my Faculty and License signed by Cardinal Barberino who generally conducts or causes to be conducted all Papists to take their leave of the Pope and before we came away for there were five or six of us together for a whole month these Fathers were exhorting us That we were not obliged to obey the King of England and that in all private Confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design That they should use all their endeavours for promoting the Popish Religion I coming into England made my application to Dr. Perrott who belonged to the Portugal Ambassador and was chief of the Popish Clergy in England I was kept there some months to say Mass in his Chappel and afterwards I was sent into the North where there were abundance of Jesuits and Fryers to one Mr. Jenison's House where knowing the Principles of these people I made it my business to rout these Jesuits away especially out of Mr. Jenison's House who had a Kinsman of his own that was a Jesuit and used to serve him in his House and great complaint was made against me and there was one Mr. Smith otherwise Serjeant in the North who gave me intimation of it ond to whom I wrote to satisfie him and the Clergy of the grounds and reasons why I routed them away which if he be in England now he can justifie Upon this I received a smart Letter as a kind of Reprimand for my doing so and he told me That though they did agree with me in Doctrine yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the Popish Religion And taxed me sharply for appearing against it I told him how the Jesuits perverted the Duke of York and that by that means they would be the chief men in England though there were none of their Order till Queen Elizabeths time Besides My Lords in Rome I saw Coleman's Letters and read them once a month as I believe wherein he
gave us intelligence of several passages that happened in Court how the Duke and the Queen and the chief of the Nobility were of their side how they carried matters several times the ways my Lord Clifford did use and Sir William Godolphin to effect the work and that they did not question but they should get my Lord Treasurer Danby on their side too This was in Coleman's Letters and he had so much allowance for his Intelligence These Letters of his I read several times in the Colledge My Lords afterwards when I came from Rome I saw Abbot Montague again and he said he was very glad to see me and that I was a Priest well but said I what am I the better where is the Employment you promised me when I should come into England He told me I should have it very soon and he was very glad that I had not made my self a Jesuit and he recommended me to Dr. Goffe Confessor to the Queen Mother who said he would do any thing in the world for me and he did not doubt but he should get a preferment for me which Dr. Goffe is now living Truly when I came into England I found all the Popish Clergy of England that I discoursed with of the same opinion that they did not doubt but the Romish Religion would soon come in And besides in the North there was gathering of Money in which I was ordered to be one of the chief men but I was against it I told them I would do nothing in it I thought it was illegal to send any Money beyond Sea they told me it was charity only to repair the College at Doway I told them it was strange that there should be so much Money raised only to repair one College which would serve three or four Colleges and I perswaded Mr. Jenison and all other persons I had to do with not to meddle with it As to this raising of the Money I conceive it may be inferr'd it was for some other private business and I believe was for the carrying on the design As for the Gentleman at the Bar my Lord Stafford I know nothing of my own particular knowledge but only this Therewas one Thomas Smith Sir Edward Smith's Brother that lived at a place not far off the place where I lived who was one that contributed in paying the Money that was then Collecting he was the man that writ a Letter up to my Lord Stafford to complain of two or three Justices of the Peace that were active against Popery upon which there was one that was turned out that I think is now of the Honourable House of Commons Mr. Treby Name him Mr. Smith Sir Henry Calverley The other was not turned out So I asked Smith when I was lately in the Country about it for I heard a rumor that there was a Letter of this Mr. Smiths found in my Lord Staffords Chamber and I was told it by a Parliament Man one Collonel Tempest So said I to him now you will be concerned in the Plot. No said he I care not for that Letter it will signifie nothing for my Lord won't keep by him any thing of any moment I asked him what he knew about my Lord he told me he writ another Letter to my Lord to know whether he would make a conveyance of his Estate away and whether he apprehended they were in danger And he told me his Lordships answer was that several did so but he would not for he expected some sudden change or alteration I asked him what change or alteration he understood by it Sir said he what can be understood by it but an alteration of the Government and Religion I am sure said he my Lord is so wise a Man that he would not write so without some ground This is all I can say to the Gentleman at the Bar and this is true by the Oath I have taken Mr. Treby My Lords I did observe Mr. Smith in the beginning of his Testimony speaking of the Discourse he had at Rome said they told him there was one in the way I presume 't is not uneasy to conjecture who was that one Lord High Stew. It was surely the King Mr. Treby But we would rather have it explained by him himself Mr. Smith Father Anderton and Father Southwell did say that the King was a good man but he was not for their turn and he was the only man that stood in the way Mr. Treby Did they name the King Mr. Smith Yes it was the common Discourse all over the Country Mr. Treby My Lords I desire Mr. Smith in the next place may give an account of the methods they were to use to accomplish this design the firing of the City and the rest Mr. Smith As to the burning of London I heard nothing beyond Seas at all but this it was discoursed that the Papists did it and the like but they denied it and they said it came accidentally in a Bakers House but this I have often heard them say that it was no great matter if it had been all burnt Lord High Stew. Will you ask him any more Questions yet Mr. Treby No we have done with him Lord High Stew. Have you concluded your Evidence Sir Mr. Smith Yes Lord High Stew. My Lord Stafford will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford I desire to know how long ago it was my Lord since he was made a Priest Sir Fran. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships leave no man is bound to answer a Question whereby he shall accuse himself therefore under favour the Question is somewhat harsh and we demand your Judgment in it Lord High Stew. What is the Question your Lordship would have asked him L. Stafford I will not ask it since 't is an offence but did not he say he said Mass pray how long ago was that Lord High Stew. I will ask him a Question Are not you a Protestant Mr. Smith Yes my Lord. Lord High Stew. How long have you been so Mr. Smith I have been a Protestant near upon two Years Lord High Stew. How long ago before were you perverted Mr. Smith Some six or seven Years Lord High Stew. That is nine Years That was I suppose about 71. Mr. Smith I was always bred a Protestant and was so abroad till I went towards Rome Lord High Stew. It is not criminal to have been a Priest if he have conformed L. Stafford I have no more to say to him Lord High Stew. Have you any more Questions to ask him L. Stafford No I never saw him before he may be as honest a Gentleman for ought I know as any one here Mr. Treby Then if your Lordship have no more Questions to ask him he may withdraw My Lords The next Witness we produce is to the general still and that is Mr. Stephen Dugdale Lord Stafford Is he only to speak to the general or to me Mr. Treby To the general we shall tell your Lordship
when we come to the particulars Sir Franc. Winn. My Lords with your Lordships favour we have opened our Case first that we would go on with the general while we are upon that head we will only call those that speak to the general but it may happen that one Witness may speak to both but we shall divide his Testimony when we come to observe upon it Mr. Treby My Lords I take leave to acquaint your Lordships that Mr. Dugdale hath but a low voice and your Lordships will not hear him without a Command of Silence which was done by Proclamation and Mr. Dugdale sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Dugdale take notice We call you now only to the general part of the Plot what Discourses you have heard from Priests in general concerning any part of the Plot. And you are not to give your particular Evidence against this Noble Lord my Lord Stafford till we call you thereunto Lord High Stew. What say you Sir Mr. Dugdale About fifteen or sixteen Years I have been acquainted that there was a Design carrying on for the bringing in the Romish Religion I have at several times by the means of my Ghostly Father that was Mr. Evers been acquainted that there were several Lords and several Priests in several places in England that were to carry it on that is they were to have Mony and Arms ready for those that wanted against the death of the King I have seen several Letters which have come from Paris Rome and St. Omers all relating to this to incourage Mr. Evers and that he should go on to incourage the rest that were ingaged For that purpose I read some of them and intercepted them because they were all directed to me Mr. Evers hath sent me upon Messages sometimes by Letters and sometimes by word of mouth and all tended for the introducing of their Religion that all should be ready with Money and Arms against the Kings Death For I did hear nothing till of late about the killing of the King In particular there came one Letter to Evers from my Lord Stafford to shew that things went on well beyond Sea and hoped they did so here I saw another time some Letters which were also transmitted to my hands by a Messenger that came from Boscobel which did come from Paris and so to St. Omers from whence they came to Harcourt and Harcourt had delivered the Letters to have the opinion of some Lords All which contained advice which they had received from Paris which they counted extraordinary good The purport of these Letters were to shew there was no way could be more likely to do their Work than if any sudden death should happen to the King then to throw it upon the Presbyterians who had killed the old King and were likeliest to be thought to have done this and so they might easily get the Protestants those of the Church of England to join with the Papists against the Presbyterians who would by that become odious and so should weaken the party the more easily to accomplish their design I have of late several times been in company with Priests and other Gentlemen in the Country when they have had Consultations both for the introducing their own Religion aud taking away the Kings life which they did always intend to be about November December or January 78. It was late in the Year but all that Year 78. this was their Consultation I have been sent to the Jesuits some of them particularly to Mr. Vavasor and Mr. Gavan for some Moneys for there was a general Collection and there was the sum of five hundred pounds at one time which I received and gave to Mr. Evers and he returned it to London for the carrying on this design and for discharging an account of Arms and things received from beyond Sea And it was agreed that my Lord Aston Sir James Symons and others should go in October 1678. to dispose of the Arms which they had so received some here and some beyond Sea to the value I heard say of 30000. Moreover I did hear that they were to have men raised there as well as here So I have heard from Mr. Evers and Mr. Gavan and others and I have been also by when it hath been discoursed that the King of France was acquainted with all these Designs and that he would furnish us with men and should not be wanting with all other aid and assistance if there should be any alteration if the King should die or be taken away or to that purpose I have been several times put upon to make Foot-Races to draw people together that they might the better have Discourses together without suspicion I was likewise put in trust by the Jesuits all the while the Plot was carrying on and particularly for two years all the Letters relating to the Plot came to my hand some of which I opened and some I kept in my own hands and particularly I had one that came to my hands which was about the Death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey for when I carried it to Mr. Evers he said There was one of our Enemies taken out of the way and it was contained in the Letter This night Sir Edmondbury Godfrey is dispatched which by the date of it was the 12. of October 1678. I told him that that would prove a discouragement to us and would be the ruine of all the Design he said not so it would rather prove otherwise for he was one that was active in punishing lewd and debauched persons and it would rather be put upon them than us as done out of Revenge Mr. Treby Pray Sir speak the particular time when that Letter came into Staffordshire Mr. Dugdale The 14. of October 1678. which was Monday Mr. Treby The date of it pray tell us Mr. Dugdale The 12. of October 1678. Mr. Treby The very night that it was done Mr. Dugdale Likewise when I did hear there was like to be an alteration in the Government and having such fair promises I was incouraged to it and was very willing to contribute to the Design and I did then make over an Estate which I had of four hundred pound value for that purpose and for the praying for my Soul And when my Lord Aston and I should come to Account as there was money over and above due to me I did likewise promise because I saw money would be wanting I would give them a hundred pound more There were several other Gentlemen as Mr. Heveningham Sir James Symons my Lord Aston Mr. Draycott Mr. Howard and Mr. Gerard who did to my knowledge contribute towards the carrying on of this Charge for defraying of Money and raising Arms and paying for them And I have seen Letters from beyond Sea that have been to Mr. Evers that all things have been ready as to the Arms and there only wanted Orders how they should be disposed of and I have been several times brought to the Oath of Secrecy for fear I
order to this Design Letters came also in June from St. Omers which gave them an account That Father Beddingfield had assured them of the Dukes willingness to comply with them for the advancement of the Catholick Religion My Lords after I had stay'd some time there and had passed through the Country for the business of the Society I found that in the Court of Spain some Ministers of that Court had been very ready to advance Money which Money was returned for England and that the Father Provincial of the Jesuits of Castile by his care and industry had advanced Ten Thousand Pound which was promised to be paid in June following within a Twelvemonth after My Lords in July I received Letters out of England wherein an account was given there to the Fathers in Spain That they were sending them a Mission of Twelve Students Four whereof were to go to Madrid and Eight to Validolid the Conductors of these Twelve Students were one Father Crosse that was his true Name and one Father Mumâ—ord whose true Name was Armstrong These Missioners arrived in December where they had a Sermon preached at their coming by this same Armstrong wherein the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy were declared to be Antichristian Heretical and Devillish in which the Kings Legitimacy was vilified and abused and that his Religion did intitle him to nothing but sudden death and destruction in that he appeared an enemy both to God and Man These were the Contents of that Sermon as near as I remember My Lords after the meeting with several Letters there in July August and September in the Kingdom of Spain it was ordered I should return for England and in the month of November I came for England at which time I had Letters from the Provincial of Castile called by the Name of Padre Hieronymo de Corduba who did in his Letter assure the Provincial in England and the Fathers here That the ten thousand Pound should be paid as I said hefore in June following When I came for England at London I was lodged at one Grigson's that lived in Drury-lane near the Sign of the Red-Lyon and there I lay till I went to St. Omers and by the Provincial and the Consultors of the Province I was ordered a maintenance and it was paid to this man for entertaining of me I went and brought these Letters to this Strange and there was Father Keins lying ill upon Strange's Bed and Keins was saying he was mighty sorry for honest William so they called the Russian that was to kill the King that he had missed in his Enterprize But my Lords this I think good to tell your Lordships they were not so zealous for the destruction of the King till the King had refused Coleman the dissolving of the long Parliament Then they were more intent upon it though they had several times attempted it ever since the Fire of London but when Coleman was refused the Dissolution of the Long Parliament then were they more zealous for the Destruction of the King but the Design for the introducing the Popish Religion they have been carrying on some years before the Fire by those instruments some of whom are yet alive My Lords I left England in November old stile and December new stile for when I came to St. Omers it was as near as I can remember the 9. or 10. of December according to the stile of the place I carryed with me a Packet of Letters from Strange the Provincial and other Fathers that were of the Consult for the Province of England to the Fathers at St. Omers wherein Strange did tell them that they had great hopes of their Design taking effect the next year but as yet it would not be effected he said therefore they at London thought it fit to suspend it till they saw what the Parliament would do And he did in the same Letter declare That the Parliament would be about a long Bill that had been brought into the Commons House some Sessions before but he did not Question but that the Catholick Party would evade that Bill And My Lords in that year some time after we had a Letter from our New Provincial whose true Name was Whitebread and his counterfeit Name White This Father writes to the Fathers at St. Omers and therein he does order one Conyers to preach upon St. Thomas of Canterburies Day and he did therein also tell them that he would be as zealous for the carrying on of the Design as his Predecessor had been and a Sermon was accordingly preached at the Sodality Church wherein after he had commended the Saint whose Day they celebrated for his great Vertues declaring how unworthily he was sacrificed he did inveigh against the Tyranny as he called it of temporal Princes and particularly of the King of England and when he came to speak of the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy he declared that he looked upon them as Antichristian and Devillish and that it was fit to destroy all such as would countenance them We have done with the year 77. and we come now to January 1678. Lord High Stew. You speak of one Keins who lying upon Stranges Bed said he was sorry honest Will had missed his Enterprize You have not explained who that honest Will was explain that Dr. Oats It was Grove Lord High Steward But about what did he say he was sorry for him Dr. Oats That he had missed his Design Mr. Foley What was that missing of his Design Dr. Oats That he had not killed the King My Lords in January 78. Lord High Steward You mean according to the Foreign stile Dr. Oats Yes according to the Foreign stile My Lords we received Letters out of Ireland and there my Lords we found by the Contents of those Letters that they were as busie in Ireland as we were in England We found there that the Talbots and other persons were very zealous in raising of Forces and were resolved to let in the French King provided that the Parliament should urge the King to break with France My Lords likewise in January as near as I can remember Morgan was sent into Ireland as a Visitor which is something a better place than a Provincial but only it is but temporary for the time he visits and he returns in February or March and gives an account how ready the Irish were to vindicate their freedom and their Religion from the oppression of the English as they called it My Lords in February some were employed to go into some parts of Germany to Liege and to some parts of Flanders to see how the affairs there stood and how their Correspondencies stood to see whether there was not an interruption in the Correspondencies My Lords upon their return they found that the Fathers at Ghent were inclined to take into this business the secular Clergy but the Fathers of St. Omers together with the Provincial did refuse the motion because the secular Clergy were more
cowardly and sought themselves and not the Interest of the Church or to that purpose My Lords in March we received Letters that there was a very shrewd attempt made upon the person of the King and that the Flint of Pickering's Gun or Pistol was loose and his hand shaking the King did then escape for which he received a Discipline and the other a severe chiding Lord High Steward You explain not the meaning of what you say that was not honest William for he you say was Grove Dr. Oats I mean Pickering received the Discipline and William was chid for it was Pickering's Flint that was loose My Lords this was in March and at the latter end of March there comes a Letter from London in which there was a Summons to a Consult here in London and being summoned there went over eight or nine from St Omers Liege and Ghent to this Consult and I did attend then in their journey Lord High Steward When did that Summons come Dr. Oats The latter end of March or the beginning of April as I remember they had notice of it in England before but we had notice of it just when we were to come I think it was in April as near as I can remember I cannot be certain in that my Lord. We did come to Town in April there the Consult was held it begun at the White Horse Tavern where they did consult about some things of the Society and afterwards they did adjourn into particular Societies where they did debate and resolve on the Death of the King and that Grove should have fifteen hundred pounds for his pains and the other being a Religious man should have thirty thousand Masses said for him My Lords after staying in Town a while we returned to St. Omers and after I had staid there some few days the new Provincial did begin to visit his Province and comes over to St. Omers where after staying some six days he goes over away from thence to Wotion But whilst he staid at St. Omers I was ordered to go into England to attend the Affairs here and for to do some other Services that they should imploy me about My Lords accordingly I did come over and it was on the 23. new stile as near as I remember I got to Calice the 24. I got to Dover on the 25. I got to Sittenburn but between Dover and Sittenburn we had some Boxes seized for at Dover we met with Fenwick who is since executed who went by the name of Thompson and carried a Box with him and a little on this side Canterbury it was seized by the Custom-House Officers and several little Trinkets in it which were seized as French Goods and he did desire the Searcher to stand his friend and he would give him something for his pains and told him where he should write to him in London There was a Superscription on the Box to one Blundel but he should write to him by the name of Thompson at the Fountain Tavern neer Charing-Cross We arrived in Town the 17. of June which is the 27. new stile it was upon a Monday and there were Letters which did follow us wherein were proposals to be made to Sir George Wakeman for the Poisoning of the King and that the Ten Thousand Pounds which the Spaniards had promised in January before and was accordingly paid in London at the time should be proposed to Wakeman to poison the King I found that Coleman did look upon it as too little and he thought Fifteen Thousand Pound should be given to him I found that Langhorn thought it too much and that he ought to do so great a piece of Service for nothing and told us he was a narrow-spirited man if he would not ingage in such a thing My Lords there was Five Thousand Pounds as the Books told me paid but I did not then see it paid because I was then ill and not fit to stir abroad My Lords we are now past June 78. In July Father Ashby comes to Town who did revive the Proposal to Sir George Wakeman but being sick of the Gout he hastened down to the Bath and when he came there as soon as he began to be well he was advised by the Fathers to see how the Catholicks stood affected in Sommerset shire for they had had an Account in March 78. by Letters from Berkshire Oxfordshire and Essex that the Catholicks stood well affected and Sir William Andrews did secure that the people of Essex should stand to their points and so several men did secure that they would have them in readiness My Lords In August I cannot remember every particular but refer my self to the Records of the House about the 26. of August I find that Fenwick went to St. Omers and there he was to attend the Provincial home and to give the Provincial an Account of the Proposal accepted by Sir George Wakeman but in July if your Lordships please to give me leave to go back again Strange comes to Town and falling in discourse about the Fire of London and the Rebuilding of it he very frankly told me how it was fired and how many of those concerned were seized and among the rest told me that the Duke of York's Guard as by his order did receive them and afterwards willing to discharge them which I forgot to mention before but upon review of my Papers I do find that it was told me his Guard did release the Prisoners that were taken as suspected about the Fire and that all the Order they had for it they pretended was from the Duke But now my Lords We return to August again Upon the 3. of August I find Ireland did pretend to go to St. Omers and a Letter came from him as directed from thence but we find by his Tryal and other things since that he went into Stafford shire and about the 12. of August as I remember he was here in Town The latter part of July I communicated with Dr. Tongue and gave him some particular account of Affairs I desired him to communicate it to some that might make it known to the King the King had notice the 13. of August or the 14. as I remember and by the 3. of September I was betray'd and was exposed to the vengeance of these men whose Contrivances I had thus discovered So my Intelligence did cease wholly the 8. of September Then was I forced to keep private and upon my Examination what Information I gave before the Lords and Commons I refer my self to them Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford will you ask him any Questions Lord Stafford No my Lord I am not at all concerned in his Evidence Lord High Steward You say you were betray'd can you tell how or which way you were betray'd Dr. Oats My Lord I will give this Honourable House what light I can in it but I desire then to be excused from my Oath for I can't speak it of my own
when the Collectors came to the Convent of our Fryers in Sligoe all the Fryers gathered together into a room and these Collectors coming in did read their Commission given them from one James Taaffe as they said and I was there personally present though a Novice and upon reading their Commissions they said Forty Shillings was to be paid by the Prior and the Fryers of that Convent and the Provincial of the Order of the Dominicans questioned the Power of the said Reynolds and Berne and so did the Prior and I asked why the money was levyed they gave answer That that levy and several other levyes was to encourage the French King in whose Kingdom were several Bishops of Ireland Clergymen and others whose business it was to provoke the King to bring an Army to invade Ireland when ever time should serve Lord High Stew. Have you done with him now Mr. Treby Yes Lord High Stew. Will your Lordship ask him any Questions Lord Stafford My Question is only whether he profess himself of the Church of Rome or a Protestant Mr. Dennis I am a Roman Catholick still my Lord. L. High Steward Are you Mr. Dennis I am my Lords Lord Stafford Then I have no more to say Sir John Trevor Then we call Mr. Jenison Who was sworn Mr. Treby Mr. Jenison you have been among the Papists and you have had great confidence among them pray declare what you know of their Designs for the Destruction of the Protestant Religion or the means of doing it whether by the Murder of the King or what other means tell your whole knowledge Mr. Jenison My Lords In the beginning of the year 78. I have heard Mr. Ireland and Mr Thomas Jenison both Jesuits speak of a Design they had to gain a toleration of Conscience for their Party in England and the way then designed to get it was by procuring a great Sum of Money from their Party and by bribing the then Parliament I have heard them likewise discourse of securing the Duke of York's Succession and that they told me was to be done by procuring of Commissions to be granted to those of their Party to be ready to rise upon the Death of the King I likewise have heard them discourse of the necessity and usefulness to their Party of the Alteration of the Government established and that their Religion could never flourish till that was done and this Kingdom altered according to the French Model In the month of June 78 I was at Mr. Ireland's Chamber and there happening a discourse that the Roman Catholick Religion was like to come into England Mr. Ireland did then say there was but one that stood in the way and that it was an easie thing to Poyson the King and that Sir George Wakeman might easily and opportunely do it I asked Mr. Ireland whether Sir George Wakeman was the Kings Physician His answer was No but he was the Queens and so might have an opportunity to do it In the month of August the same year the day that I came from Windsor I went to Mr. Ireland's Chamber and I found he was newly come from Staffordshire and was drawing off his Boots on the frame of a Table he asked me whence I was come I told him from Windsor He inquired of me about the Diversions of the Court I told him I understood His Majesty did take delight in Hawking and Fishing but chiefly in Fishing and that he went accompanied only with two or three early in the morning Then Mr. Ireland replyed He were easily taken off or removed to which I answered God forbid being surprized at that time O said he I say not that it is lawful Then there happened some interruption to our Discourse about Staffordshire then we fell into a Discourse of their Religion that he said was suddenly to come into England and he asked me if I would be one of those that would go to Windsor to assist to take off the King I told him no then he told me he would remit the 20 l. I owed him if I would go to Windsor to be one of those that were to take off the King My Lords I told him I would have no hand in any such matter and that I would not for twenty times 20 l. have any hand in the Death of the King said he Would you do nothing for the bringing in of our Religion I told him I thought it would never come in by blood I told him further God forgive me if the King were taken off so well and good but I would have nothing to do with it He left not the Discourse there but asked me if I knew any Irishmen that were stout and couragious I told him yes I did and named Captain Levallian Mr. Karney Mr. Broghall and Mr. Wilson all Gentlemen of my acquaintance about Grays-Inn When I named these he asked me if I would go along with them to Windsor to assist them in taking off the King I told him I did not think any man of Estate would ingage in such a matter that I was Heir to an Estate my Brother being a Priest and that Captain Levallian was Heir to a very good Estate and therefore I did believe he would not do such a thing unless the Pique which he had to the King or Religion might move him to it My Lords be approved of these persons and said he knew the first two of them Levallian and Karney and he set down as I remember the other two Names in writing He told me he was going to the Club to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Levallian and Mr. Karney at that time and then asked me for the Money the Twenty pounds that I owed him He told me he wanted Fourscoure Pounds and he desired me that I would return it as soon as I came into the Countrey Now my Lords the same day that I received this Twenty pound of Ireland I went with Mr. Thomas Jenison the Jesuit to Harcourts Chamber to give the Fathers thanks for the Loan of the Money and there Mr. Jenison falling into Discourse on that common Topick of their Religion coming into England he did then use that Expression which Dr. Oats hath in his Narrative If C. R. would not be R. C. he should not be long C. R. And he did interpret it thus in Latine Si Carolus Rex non esset Rex Catholicus non foret din Carolus Rex And he did add my Lords upon the Discourse that if the King were Excommunicated or Deposed he was not longer King and it was no sin or no great sin to take him off and if it were discovered who did it two or three might perhaps suffer but denying the Fact the matter soon would be blown over My Lords about two Months after the Mustering the Forces upon Hounslowe-Heath Mr. Thomas Jenison did tell me he had a matter of great Consequence to impart to me that there was a Design on foot so laid as that it could not well be
John Trevor Then we desire they may be produced here and the Copies proved upon Oath and then we shall leave them upon your Lordships Table And my Lords we desire likewise at the same time to save another trouble there may be delivered in the Convictions of Reading Lane Knox and others Then Mr. Clare was Sworn and delivered in the Copies of the Records L. H. Stew. What Record is that Mr. Clare It is the Record of the Attainder of Coleman for high Treason L. H. Stew. Did you examine it Mr. Clare I did examine it L. H. Stew. Is it a true Copy Mr. Clare To the best of my understanding it is Here is likewise a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Ireland Pickering and Grove for high Treason L. H. Stew. Is there Judgment of Attainder entred upon Record Mr. Clare Yes my Lords there is Judgement entred Here is a Copy of the Indictment Conviction and Attainder of Whitebread Fenwick Harcourt Gavan and Turner for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Record of Attainder of Richard Langhorn for high Treason Here is a Copy of the Attainder of Green Berry and Hill for the Murder of Sir Edmond-bury Godfrey Here is a Copy of the Conviction of Mr. Nathaniel Reading for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Bedlow to retract his Evidence against some of the Lords in the Tower and Sir Henry Tichbourn L. H. Stew. What is the Judgment there Mr. Clare The Judgment is entred upon it and 't is to pay 1000 l. Fine and to be put in and upon the Pillory in the Palace Yard Westminster for an hour with a Paper upon his head written in great Letters For endeavouring Subornation of Perjury Here is a Copy of the Record of the Conviction of Tasbrough and Price for endeavouring to Suborn Mr. Dugdale and Judgment entred upon it And here is a Copy of the Record of Conviction of Knox and Lane for Conspiring to asperse Dr. Oats and Mr. Bedlow Here is the Record of the Conviction of John Giles for barbarously attempting to Assassinate John Arnold Esq one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and the Judgment entred thereupon is To stand three times on the Pillory with a Paper on his Hat declaring his Offence to pay â—00 l. to the King to lie in Execution till the same be paid and find Sureties for his Good Behaviour during life L. H. Stew. Deliver them all in And if my Lords have occasion to doubt of any thing being left in the Court they will be there ready â—o be used All which were then delivered in Mr. Treby My Lords we humbly desire that the Record of Coleman may be read because there is more of special matter in it than any of the rest and your Lordships may dispose of the others as you please L. H. Stew. Read the Record of Coleman Then the Clerk read in Latin the Record of the Attainder of Edward Coleman formerly Executed for high Treason by him Committed in this horrid Popish Plot which in English is as followeth viz. Of the Term of Saint MICHAEL in the Thirtieth Year of the Reign of King CHARLES the Second c. Middlesex AT another time to wit on VVednesday next after eight days of St. Martin this same Term before our Lord the King at VVestminster by the Oath of Twelve Jurors honest and lawful Men of the County aforesaid Sworn and Charged to Enquire for our said Lord the King and the Body of the County aforesaid it stands presented That Edward Coleman late of the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster in the County of Middlesex Gentleman as a false Traitor against the most Illustrious most Serene and most Excellent Prince our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. and his Natural Lord not having the Fear of God in his Heart nor weighing the Duty of his Allegiance but by the instigation of the Devil moved and seduced the cordial Love and the true due and Natural Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King ought and of right are bound to bear utterly withdrawing and devising and with his whole Strength intending the Peace and common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disturb and the true Worship of God within this Kingdom of England practised and by Law established to overthrow and Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move stir up and procure and the cordial Love and true and due Obedience which true and faithful Subjects of our said Lord the King towards Him our said Lord the King should bear and of right are bound to bear utterly to withdraw blot out and extinguish and our said Lord the King to death and final destruction to bring and put the 29 th day of September in the 27 th year of the Reign of our Lord CHARLES the Second by the Grace of God of England Scotland France and Ireland King Defender of the Faith c. at the Parish of St. Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County aforesaid falsly maliciously subtilly and traiterously proposed compassed imagined and intended Sedition and Rebellion within this Realm of England to move raise up and procure and a miserable Slaughter among the Subjects of our said Lord the King to procure and cause and our said Lord the King from his Kingly State Title Power and Government of His Realm of England utterly to deprive depose deject and disinherit and Him our said Lord the King to Death and final Destruction to bring and put and the Government of the same Realm and the sincere Religion of God in this Kingdom rightly and by the Laws of this Realm established for his Will and Pleasure to change and alter and the State of this whole Kingdom in its universal parts well instituted and ordained wholly to subvert and destroy and War against our said Lord the King within this Realm of England to levy and to accomplish and fulfil these his most wicked Treasons and traiterous Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid The same Edward Coleman afterwards to wit the said Twenty ninth day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh year of the Reign of our said Lord the King at the Parish of Saint Margaret VVestminster aforesaid in the County of Middlesex aforesaid falsly subtilly and traiterously devised composed and writ two Letters to be sent to one Monsieur Le Chese then Servant and Confessor of Lewis the French King to desire procure and obtain to the said Edward Coleman and other false Traitors against our said Soveragin Lord the King from the said French King his Aid Assistance and Adherence to alter the true Religion in this Kingdom then and still Established to the Superstition of the Church of Rome and to Subvert the Government of this Kingdom of England And afterwards to wit the said Twenty Ninth Day of September in the abovesaid Twenty Seventh Year
Lord Stafford I will willingly dye if ever I saw this Doctor in my life Dr. Oats I excuse my Lord for that for I was in another habit and I went by another Name and your Lordships do remember I came in another habit to make the first Discovery Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw his face nor know him nor Fenwick or Thompson otherwise than one Thompson a Merchant at Brussels Dr. Oats But my Lords I have one thing more to say of my Lord Stafford my Lord Stafford went into France I can't say the year but I believe it is within the term of 6 or 7. but he went over to France and it did appear by letters from him that Seignior Con was made choice of to heal the Difference between the Regulars and the Seculars and Seignior Con did come over in the year 76. and there did make a kind of a peace among them which lasted whilst Con stayed here and Con did bring over Messages to which my Lord Stafford if he tells any truth in his own letter did return answers Lord Stafford For the present all I say to it is this I never writ any one letter this 25 years nor had any correspondence with any Jesuit Lord High Steward I beseech your Lordship make me capable of serving your Lordship by letting me hear what you say Lord Stafford My Lord I have a great Cold and can speak no louder I desire to ask this Witness no more Questions at present but I say I never writ any letters to any Priest this 25 years Mr Foley Then my Lords if my Lord hath done we will call another Witness and that is Mr. Edward Turbervile Who was sworn L. H. Steward Look upon the Prisoner Do you know my Lord Stafford Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord. L. H. Steward Raise your voice and speak deliberately Mr. Treby Give an account of your knowledge and use your own method Mr. Turbervile My Lords in the year 1675. I was perswaded by my Lady Powis and one Morgan that was Confessor to the Family to go to Doway in order to take upon me the Fryars Habit. When I came there instead of Religion I found nothing but Hypocrisie and Villainy among them and quickly grew weary of staying there and with much difficulty I escaped thence to go for England when I came into England I did not think that my Friends would look unkindly upon me because I refused to live in that way that they proposed to me to live in I used all the means I could to have them reconciled and made applications to them that since I could not bear with the life they would have had me lived in they would contrive some way for me being a younger Brother that I might live in the world but they were so averse and inveterate against me that they told me instead of doing any thing for me they would do me all the mischief and prejudice they could and having lived all my time among them I thought the World would receive a Character of me from them who were my Relations as they would please to represent it so having no hopes in England I took a resolution to go into France where I had a Brother that was a Benedictine Monk and I hoped that he being in good repute amongst them might be able to do me some service there When I came to Paris my Brother used all the endeavours imaginable to get me to be of that Order but I having so ill a conceit and opinion of the Order that I was in before and thinking all the rest were the same I was unwilling at all to enter into it And after I had staid there a while I resolved to come over into England My Brother used all the means he could for my accommodation and recommended me to this Noble Lord the Prisoner at the Bar who lodged then at a corner house in a Street which as I remember bears the name of La Rue de Beaufort where I was several times with him in order to come over with him in the Yaught for England After I had been there for a fortnight with this Lord he understanding my condition by my Brother and by the other Fathers of that Convent and imagining I was a fit instrument to be employed on such an occasion propos'd to me a way whereby as he said I might not only retrieve my Reputation with my Relations but also make my self a very happy man and after having exacted from me all the obligations of secresie which I could give him he at length told me in direct terms it was to take away the life of the King of England who was an Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty I looked upon it as an extraordinary attempt and desired time to consider of it before I would undertake it And I gave him this answer I would give him my resolution at Diep where we were to go on board for England And when I came to take my leave of this Noble Lord at the Bar he was sitting upon a bench and he was troubled with the Gout in his foot at that time And he told me he had some business to go to Versailles and that he should not be in six or seven days at Diep where I was to wait for him After a while I received a letter at Diep from his Lordship wherein he writ word That he had altered his resolution and would go by the way of Calice and that I should hasten to wait on his Lordship at London I have one thing more to observe to your Lordships when I got passage from Diep in a Fisher-boat for England I never came neer my Lord Stafford because being not willing to undertake his proposal I thought my self not safe even from my own Relations and therefore I made my applications to the Duke of Monmouth and his Grace was pleased by letter to recommend me into the French service and by that means I avoided his Lordships further importunity Lord High Steward You say my Lord did propose to you the Killing of the King did he plainly make the proposal in direct terms to kill the King Mr. Turbervile Yes he did my Lord. Lord High Steward What did he offer you to do it Mr. Turbervile Nothing for I would not accept of it I told him it was a matter of great concernment and I ought to consider of it and I took time to think of it and would give him my answer at Diep which he came not to and so there was an end of it Lord High Steward What ingagements of secresie had you given my Lord before he opened himself so plainly to you Mr. Turbervile I gave my Lord my word and my promise that I would not discover it to any person directly nor indirectly my Lord had nothing of an Oath from me L. H. Steward Will you ask him any more Questions Gentlemen Sir Will. Jones No my Lords L. H. Steward Will your
Lordship ask him any Questions my Lord Stafford Lord Stafford My Lord I never saw the man before in my life I will ask him one Question since he hath been pleased to swear against me Mr. Turbervile My Lords I had no reason but the truth to do it for I never received any injury from his Lordship in my life L. Stafford It seems I had ill luck to choose this man for an attempt to Kill the King who was such a Coward he ran away from his Colours and was to have been shot to death Mr. Turbervile Ask the Duke of Monmouth what Character he received of me L. Stafford He says in the year 75. he went from London to Doway and staid some time there and then came back to England I beseech your Lordships to ask him what time he went back to Paris L. H. Steward What time was it that you went back to Paris Mr. Turbervile Truly my Lord I cannot be punctual to a fortnight but I believe it was the beginning of June L. H. Steward What year Mr. Turbervile 75. Lord Stafford My Lords I would know who recommended him to me to go over with me into England Lord High Steward Who recommended you to my Lord Stafford to go into England Mr. Turbervile My Lords it was Father Sherborn who was then Prior of the Benedictine Monks in Paris and Father Nelson Sub-prior of those Monks and my Brother who is a Monk in the same Convent Lord High Steward He says that there were three persons that recommended him to your Lordship Lord Stafford I never saw them in my life Mr. Turbervile Your Lordship that says I was a Coward and run away from my Colours will say any thing Lord Stafford I not only say it but will prove it by two Witnesses Mr. Turbervile Do it if you can Lord Stafford He says in the beginning of June 75. he went into France I desire to know of him when it was he spoke to me Mr. Turbervile In November 75. Lord Stafford He says in November Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lord about the beginning of November L. Stafford I beseech your Lordship where was it he spoke to me L. H. Steward Turbervile where was it you spoke to my Lord Mr. Turbervile In Paris L. Stafford Whereabouts in Paris Mr. Turbervile It was the Corner-House of the Street which Street faces Luxenburgh House the Prince of Conde lodges on the right hand in that Street I take it to be so and you lodged at the Corner-House I think the Name of the Street was La Rue de Beaufort L. Stafford Which if the Prince of Conde did I will say no more Mr. Turbervile I cannot be upon my Oath in such cases but I think he does I take it so L. Stafford He says he was with me a fortnight what does he mean Mr. Turbervile I came to my Lord several times in the space of a fortnight L. Stafford I desire to know who brought him to me Mr. Turbervile Father Sherborn Father Nelson and my Brother Father Anthony Turbervile and sometimes I came alone L. H. Steward He says those three Fathers recommended him to your Lordship and he came himself several times Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords it is true L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships did he come directly to my Chamber or where Mr. Turbervile Sometimes to my Lords Chamber and at other times I met him in a lower Room L. Stafford It concerns me much my Lords and though they be foolish Questions yet I hope your Lordships will pardon me if I ask them Where was this Discourse about killing the King L. H. Steward Was this Discourse in the Chamber or in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile In the lower Room L. Stafford He says I think that he hath been in my Chamber L. High Stew. Have you been in my Lords Chamber as well as in the lower Room Mr. Turbervile Yes my Lords I have L. Stafford What kind of Room is it Mr. Turbervile I cannot remember that L. Stafford No I dare sware you can't Mr. Turbervile I can't tell the particulars what Stools and Chairs were in the Room L. Stafford My Lords I have no more to say to him at present L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervile How long have you been in England Mr. Turbervile I cannot answer punctually I have been in England near four years L. H. Stew. How came it to pass that you never discovered this sooner Mr. Turbervile I had no Faith to believe that I should be safe if I did it but my brains might be knocked out and that kept me off from doing that service which I might be better able to do if I did deser it L. H. Stew. How came you to discover it now Mr. Turbervile The Kings Proclamation and some Friends that have perswaded me I may do it with safety who will give your Lordships an account of it L. Stafford I desire he may attend when I make my defence Mr. Turbervile Yes I shall But I am sorry that his Lordship hath so ill a memory as to what passed between us I shall be very unwilling to do his Lordship or any body else any injury but I must tell the truth Sir Will. Jones My Lords We shall call no more Witnesses unless my Lord the Prisoner give us an occasion If he shall make any Objections to any of our Witnesses I hope we shall have liberty to call Witnesses to support them but we give over at present and expect his Lordships Answer L. Stafford May it please your Lorships I beseech your Lordships before I say any thing that I may know if they have any more Witnesses to examine Lord High Steward They say they will call no more Evidence unless your Lordships Answer do give them occasion to fortify their Witnesses you except against Lord Stafford My Lords it is now about two years that I have had the misfortune to be accused of this detestable Treason I have been several times in those two years a close prisoner that my Wife and Children were denyed to come neer me and hardly a Servant permitted to ask how I did but at the door of my Prison My Lords This was a great and an heavy affliction to me and my Lords it was so great an affliction to me that truly I did not know how to bear it 'T is true I had that comfort that I did hope I should soon come to my Tryal and before your Lordships make my innocency appear In order to which I did all I could having heard this Hall was provided for it and I did expect in a very few days to clear my self before your Lordships and all the World When I had settled my mind and did not foresee any greater affliction that could befall me I had on the sudden by some of my friends a sad Message sent me That the House of Commons had impeached me of High Treason My Lords I looked upon the House of Commons then as I do now as the great
redily produce them but for my self I must answer and I think my Companions will say so too that we do not know where these Affidavits are nor of any Variation in those Affidavits from what is now sworn but whatever they were they were taken for the Information of the House of Commons who are the Prosecutors in this Cause and who are no Judges Now if my Lord will bring any Witness that will say this Witness of ours did before a Justice of Peaee depose so and so and says the contrary now there might be then just reasons to look after these Affidavits and to have them produced but upon a bare imagination that there is a Variance where in truth there is none and the Truth may otherwise be known to desire that these Affidavits that never were before you should be produced whether such a Suggestion is to be admitted I humbly submit it to your Lordships Consideration L. Stafford My Lords if these Gentlemen that are the Managers for the House of Commons will aver to your Lordships that there is no Variation in them I will submit to them and be quiet if they will say it was not debated in the House whether he should amend or no. L. H. Stew. Look you he puts it upon you so far Gentlemen that if you will take it upon you to aver that there is no Variation between those Affidavits upon which you grounded your Impeachment and the Evidence you have given upon the Trial of your Impeachment he will not give you the trouble L. Stafford I beseech you let me say one word my Lords I have been thus long a Prisoner I was as far from being proceeded against now as any of the rest of the Lords in the Tower till Turbervile came in with his Discovery and I believe I am now called the sooner which I am glad of and I give the Gentlemen thanks for it upon the Affidavit of Turbervile I desire that Affidavit and though it be true the House of Commons give no Oath yet they appointed two Members of the House that were Justices of the Peace of Middlesex to take it upon Oath and he desired the next day to amend it and I put my self upon them whether this be not true L. H. Stew. What say you Sir to it Sir W. Jones My Lord I cannot answer because I don't hear L. Stafford My Lord I say this I do observe that Mr. Turbervile whose face I never saw in my life that I know of till to day nor never spoke a word to him and I shall prove that no Servant that ever I had see him did depose for the purpose to day that he was in the Years 73. and 76. in such and such places and that he did speak with me at Doway and Paris and to Morrow recollecting his Notes he found he was mistaken in his Affidavit that he had made before and desired to mend it and brought it to the Years 72. and 75. there was some Debate in the House about it whether they should permit him to mend it I appeal to all the Gentlemen whether it were not so L. H. Stew. Your labour is to have two Affidavits that you do presume will do your business in order to the finding out a variety of time of his being at Doway or at Paris That which does press your Lordship we know in Turbervile's Evidence is That at Paris in the Room below of your Lodging you encouraged him to kill the King and you were to have met him at Diep to know his mind but you came not and he went away if you have it in the Affidavit quite contrary to this you say somewhat L. Staff My Lords I beseech you it presses me and every man in England not to be run down by a Fellow that forswears himself for him to swear one thing to day and another thing to morrow is Perjury L. H. Stew. What say you to it Gentlemen Sir W. Jones What was done in the House of Commons it does not become any of us that are Members to disclose But I have heard and will admit it that in the Depositions the Witness made before a Justice of Peace there was a year put down which he going home and upon sight of Letters and Papers found it to be mistaken he comes the next day and desires to alter it if this be for my Lords Service we shall grant it Mr. Serj. Maynard 'T is on or about too L. H. Stew. What say you my Lord now L. Staff I do say my Lord I am informed by what I have heard cursorily for I have not seen one of the House of Commons before the day of my Tryal that though in his second Deposition he named the years 72. and 75. yet I can prove him perjured as to what he hath sworn here to day L. H. Stew. Since 't is insisted upon Gentlemen that there is a Variety in the last Deposition from what he swore at first what can you say why he should not have the avail of his Exception Sir Will. Jones My Lords whether your Lordships will think fit to consider by what ways and means the House of Commons informed themselves in order to Impeachments I submit to you and for those things that still remain in the hands of the Commons I suppose you will be pleased to consider how you can send for them to inform you We would not be mistaken in the matter let not any one that hears us think that we are conscious there is the least Variation nay we are confident if the thing were produced it would turn to my Lords prejudice but what is done in this Case may be a President for the future and therefore we cannot without resorting to the House consent to deliver any thing the House took for their Information Therefore if your Lordships stand upon it and incline to have it done we must resort to the House to ask their leave whether we shall do it or no. L. H. Stew. I cannot tell what my Lords will incline to do but I desire when you are gone back you will consider how far it will make the matter easie to my Lord. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we can give no Answer to that till we have attended our House Mr. Serj. Maynard I desire your Lordships to consider what a piece of cunning he hath put upon both Houses to pass by his villifying our Witnesses which I may say was not comely But if he makes any Question it must be put to the Houses upon supposition to be a Question and so he would bring things only to this issue to put off the Cause for to day He ought to put that which might probably be something of a Question Let him instance in particulars and make out his Evidence not seign things to put off the Cause for ought I see 't is to no other end and 't is a Jesuitical trick I think L. Stafford I feign nothing I have
all these things shall be saved to you pray let us hear your Evidence L. Staff Since your Lordships hath granted me that be pleased to give me leave to go to my Evidence and I begin with Stephen Dugdale L. H. Stew. Set up Dugdale L. Staff Will your Lordships please I may have Pen Ink and Paper L. H. Stew. By all means my Lord. Which was given him L. Staff May it please your Lordships Stephen Dugdale said if I understand him aright and I ask him again that he knew something of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago L. H. Stew. What say you Mr. Dugdale you hear the Question Did not you say you knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago Mr. Dugdale I did say it and did explain my meaning in it I did say there was among us such a preparation to be made against the King died of Arms and Money that neither should be wanting L. Staff I beseech your Lordship to ask what proportion of Arms was to be provided L. H. Stew. What proportion of Arms was to be provided Mr. Dugdale I never heard it nominated how many absolutely I have heard of some Numbers I heard of late of 30000. that were to be raised beyond Sea what the whole number in England was I have forgot but I think I have heard Mr. Gavan and some of the Priests say That if there was occasion they should have at least 200000 to assist them that was of Men and I suppose they had Arms as well as Men. L. Stafford My Lords If this were true which he says Mr. Gavan said that they were 200000 I desire to know what Men he ment what Religion they must be of Lord High Stew. What Religion were they of that were to come in and help Mr. Dugdale He did not name them at that time but I understood them and so I apprehend the Company would that they were Roman Catholicks L. Stafford 'T is a strange thing that there should be 200000 Catholicks raised when there are not 20â—00 in England that can bear Arms. L. H. Stew. Good my Lord They might come from beyond sea and so they might be so many Roman Catholicks though there were not so many in England Mr. Serj. Maynard And he says not they were Roman Catholicks but he heard so Mr. Treby There might be so many Roman Catholicks and such as should be with them L. Staff Did he hear 15 or 16 Years that I was one to be among them L. H. Stew. Answer that Question Did you hear then that my Lord Stafford was to be one among them Mr. Dugdale I cannot remember it that I did my Lord. L. Stafford Then my Lords I make this use of it He tells you of a Plot 16 Years ago that 200000 Men in Arms were ready against the King's death Mr. Dugdale I did not say so my Lords I desire I may be understood aright L. Stafford You say you heard so Mr. Dugdale I speak as to the number of Men what I heard of late at the Consults and Meetings within these two Years L. Stafford But I speak of 16 Years ago what Number of Men was there to be raised Mr. Dugdale My Lords it was a general word that was amongst us That we must be provided against that time against the Death of the King but no Number at all L. Stafford This my Lords under favour I conceive does not concern me He tells you there was such a thing it might be so or it might not be so I am not concerned in it then 't is out of Doors as to what concerns me I conceive otherwise if the Gentlemen conceive otherwise they will say so Then my Lords the next thing is How long ago it is since I first spake to him about this Plot and I beseech your Lordships he may mention time and place L. H. Stew. You hear the Question Mr. Dugdale Mr. Dugdale The first time to my best remembrance L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords let us have no remembrance but let him swear positively L. H. Stew. There is no mortal Man can swear otherwise than according to his Remembrance L. Stafford When a mans Life and Honour and all he hath is at stake and indeed in Consequence every man in England is concerned if they swear not positively but still say as I remember who can make a Defence L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Go on and say as near as you can and be as particular as you can upon your Oath Mr. Dugdale That which I can positively affirm is It was about August or September 78. L. Stafford He said yesterday it was in the latter end of August or the beginning of September which are two Months I beseech you what does he mean by the latter end of August how long before the end of August L. H. Stew. How long was it before the last day in August Mr. Dugdale My Lords I will not be positive but it was either in one Month or the other I did not keep a Diary or else I would give your Lordships satisfaction L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships he may positively say whether in August or nor in August or whether in September or not in September Mr. Dugdale I dare not venture to swear that I dare not do it L. Staff Then saving my Exceptions to the incertainty of that afterwards I would ask him what day was it in September that I spoke to him Mr. Dugd. I remember one was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. Staff My Lords he says the 20. or 21. does he say that was the first time he spoke with me Sir Jolm Trevor No no. L. Staff I beseech you my Lords they may not answer the Questions but the Witnesses they cry No no. L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall certainly have an answer to all the Questions you will ask L. Staff But when I ask they answer for them I would know whether that is the Course or no. L. H. Stew. Do not disquite your self for any thing that is said about you you shall have a fair hearing L. Stafford But my Lords I cannot but be disquieted when I hear these learned Gentlemen make Answers to my Questions for the Witnesses L. H. Stew. Mr. Dugdale Was the 20. or the 21. of September you speak of the first time you spoke to my Lord Stafford Mr. Dugdale No my Lords it was not L. Stafford Pray my Lords what day was it then I spoke first to him L. H. Stew. What was the day you first spoke to my Lord Mr. Dugdale Truly my Lords I cannot remember so well as to tell you L. H. Stew. Do you remember when my Lord came to Tixal Mr. Dugdale I remember one Sunday in particular but I cannot tell what day of the month it was L. H. Stew. Do you remember my Lord Stafford at Tixal in company of my Lord Aston and Father Evers Mr. Dugdale Yes I do L. H. Stew. Do you remember that any
do not oppose it my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord call your Witnesses L. Stafford There is no place appointed for them and therefore I could not have them ready here I have sent for them I have a throng of them L. H. Stew. They will open the way and we will stay for them L. Stafford My Lords I desire that as Yesterday when the Witnesses were sworn against me mine did not hear what they said so I desire when my Witnesses come theirs may not be present L. H. Stew. My Lord with your Lordships Pardon it was not well done that your Witnesses were not there but if Witnesses be to confront one another shall they not hear what one another say L. Stafford My Lords I am so clear in every thing I will dispute no little matters Then my Lords Witness stood up Lord High Steward What is this mans name you call now my Lord L. Stafford Indeed my Lord I don't know Witness My Name is Bonny my Lords L. H. Stew. Does your Lordship call this man L. Staff Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. You are not upon your Oath but you are to look that a strict account will be taken of what you say Mr. Foley My Lords we desire to know where this Witness lives Bonny I live in Exeter-street by Exeter Exchange L. Staff I declare it I know him not but I am told he can witness for me L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Bonny Thomas L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Bonny I live as Clerk of the Kitchin to my Lord Marquess of Worcester Mr. Foley What Religion are you of Bonny A Protestant one of the Church of England L. Staff My Lords I humbly move your Lordships When I asked Mr. Smith the first day where he was made a Priest a Gentleman said he was not bound to answer any thing against himself that might make him Criminal I desire that the Question may not be put to my Witnesses what Religion they are of L. H. Stew. The Gentleman will not offer to ask any Question that may make a man accuse himself but my Lord a Papist or not a Papist is not so penal as a Priest or no Priest Mr. Foley To acknowledge a mans self a Papist is not to make him a Criminal L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship call this Witness for L. Staff To prove when I was at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters L. H. Stew. What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcesters Bonny In August 78. L. H. Stew. Do you remember it perfectly Bonny Very well L. H. Stew. What day of August Bonny The 17. of August which my Lord Marquess keeps as his Wedding Day every Year and the Gentlemen of the Country are invited thither My Lord Stafford was then at Bath and my Lord Marquess was pleased to send his Coach for him to be present there that day there he staid that day and the next day and then returned on Monday And in the same month the 31. of August my Lord came again from Bath to Badminâ—on my Lord Marquess of Worcester's and upon the Monday after returned for London L. H. Stew. That was the beginning of September Bonny Yes the 2. he went to London L. H. Stew. Will you ask him Genlemen any Questions Managers No my Lords Lord High Steward Call another Witness then who stood up L. H. Stew. What is this mans Name Witness Thomas Witness Thomas White L. H. Stew. Thomas what L. H. Steward Where do you live White I live with my Lord Marquess of Worcester at Badminton L. H. Stew. What do you say White My Lords Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lord Steward I have only this to say my Lord Stafford desired that his Witnesses might not be asked what Religion they were of but I desire all my Servants may be asked for I keep none but Protestants Lord High Steward What Religion are you of White A Protestant L. Stafford My Lords I did not require it for them I know my Lord keeps none but Protestants but I asked it for others of my Witnesses that may come and be startled at it L. H. Steward What say you when was my Lord Stafford at my Lord Marquess of Worcester's House White The 17. of August 78. I fetched him from Bath being my Lords Wedding day L. H. Stew. You fetched him White Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What place do you serve my Lord Marquess in White As Coachman L. H. Stew. Was he there afterwards White Yes he was but I can't remember the day only this being a remarkable day I can remember it L. H. Stew. Did you carry my Lord from thence towards London White Yes I did L. H. Stew. When was that White The second of September to the best of my remembrance L. H. Stew. Gentlemen Will you ask him any Questions Managers No. L. Stafford I think this is so clear I shall not need to trouble your Lordships further with more Witnesses L. H. Stew. Call whom you please my Lord and as many as you think fit they shall be heard L. Stafford One more then my Lords Who stood up L. High Stew. What is your Name Witness Richard Bevan L. H. Stew. Who do you live with Bevan I am Groom to my Lord Marquess of VVorcester L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Bevan A Protestant Lord High Steward Do you remember when my Lord Stafford was at the Marquess of Worcester's House Bevan Yes I do Lord High Steward What time was it Bevan The 17. of August Lord High Steward Do you remember any other day Bevan No my Lord but he was there that day L. H. Steward Will you ask him any Questions Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I desire my Lord Marquess of Worcester may tell your Lordships whether his men have said true or no. Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I do remember that my Lord Stafford was pleased to do me the Honour to come upon my Wedding day from the Bath and dine with me as most Persons of Quality that are of my acquaintance and happen to be at the Bath at that time are pleased to do And as most of the Gentlemen of the Countrey within such a distance do also And that day is the 17. of August I think he was there once or twice after from the Bath but I cannot tell precisely the days but that particular day I remember because it was my Wedding day L. H. Steward Can your Lordship remember when my Lord Stafford went to London Lord Marq. of Worcester Truly I cannot tell that my Lords L. H. Steward Did you not after that lend my Lord your Coach Lord Marq. of Worcester Yes I did to carry him as far as Sandy-lane on the Road to London but the particular day I remember not but one of the persons examined who was then my Clerk of the Kitchin must needs know because he books every day who is in
he would be revenged of my Lord Stafford did you Sawyer No of my Lord Aston Then another time being at Stafford he owed me Twenty nine Pounds and he was under the Serjeants hands and then he promised me from time to time he would pay me and did not keep his word This was three or four days before he begun to peach He bid me come such a day and he would pay me part of the money and when I came thither he told me it was reported That he should be a Peacher and that there was a speech how that he should have two hundred pounds for informing that there were Fourteen Priests in the Country but he takes a Glass of Drink and Thomas says he by God I wish this may be my Damnation and my Poison if I know of any Plot or any Priests L. H. Steward Was not he a Papist then Sawyer I cannot absolutely tell that whether he was or no. L. H. Steward Do you know one Father Evers Sawyer My Lords I have seen him Lord High Steward Hath he never been at Tixal Sawyer Yes My Lords I have seen him there L. H. Stew. And have not you seen Dugdale in his Company Sawyer Yes I have L. H. Stew. Did not you at Tixal think Dugdale a stout able Fellow Sawyer No he never was accounted to be so L. H. Stew. Then I ask you if you thought him an honest man or a rich man Sawyer No my Lords for I 'll tell you more than that my Lord Aston employed him to be his Bayliff and receive his Rents and to pay Workmen their Wages which he received every Saturday aud my Lord Aston did Accompt with him where he did set his hand to receive the poor Workmens Wages according to their Bills when they had not been paid some of them whole years and half years and quarters And they came and cryed to my Lord that they were not paid and thereupon Dugdale did say That one of them had demanded more of my Lord than was his due for he said he had reckoned such a day with him and paid him so much money which man said he was not that day at Tixal and so he hindred him of part of his money L. H. Stew. Did you ever know that Dugdale did forswear himself Sawyer That I do not know my Lords I did hear he was concern'd in a Race about which there was a Tryal and a Dispute which had won This â— have heard by report Sir Fr. Winn. Speak your own knowledge not Reports L. H. Stew. I ask you do you remember the day when my Lord Stafford came to Tixal Sawyer He came on the 12. day of the month L. H. Stew. What September Sawyer Yes the 12. of September L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Dugdale in the Company of my Lord Stafford while he was at Tixal Sawyer No never in the House but at the Race he hath come into the Parlour Mr. Treby You had Discourse with Dugdale you say he took a Glass and drank and wished it might be his Poyson Was not Father Evers that time at my Lord Aston's Sawyer Not as I know of my Lords Mr. Treby Was he not commonly there Sawyer Yes Mr. Treby If he were Mr. Dugdale must know it and how then could he take a Glass and wish it were Poyson if he knew where any Priest was since it was apparent he knew where that Priest was 'T is most improbable Mr. Dugdale should say thus Sawyer My Lords this was three or four days e're he confessed any thing he knew of his knowledge Mr. Treby What Perswasion of Religion are you Sawyer Of the Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray my Lords ask him one Question he says Dugdale went away from my Lord Aston's was not there a speech of a Plot at that time that was discovered Sawyer Yes that I heard Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords I would ask him one Question more Was there no discourse of the Death of a Justice of Peace that was said to be killed in London about that time Sawyer To my best remembrance as I heard there was Mr. Dugdale My Lords if your Lordships please that I should call Witnesses to confront him now or afterwards Sir Will. Jones Not now stay till your time comes L. Stafford Then call Philips who stood up L. H. Stew What is your Name Sir Witness Ralph Philips L. H. Stew. What are you a Clergy-man Mr. Philips Yes L. H. Stew. Are you beneficed Mr. Philips Yes my Lord. L. H. Stew. Where Mr. Philips At Tixal my Lord. L. H. Stew. You are a person that knows the Obligation that lies upon you to give a true Testimony what can you say of Mr. Dugdale Mr. Philips My Lords I have very little to say concerning Stephen Dugdale as to any thing of the Plot but in reference to what he should relate concerning Mr. Sambidge and me in the Narrative which he deposed upon the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman He said then he did receive a Letter concerning the death of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey which was dated the 12. of October as I remember and that he did communicate the Letter to Mr. Sambidge and me immediately the next Tuesday Whereas I will assure you my Lords I never heard neither by Letter nor word of mouth from him nor any other till it was publickly known L. H. Stew. You did not live in my Lord Aston's house did you Mr. Philips No my Lords Sir Will. Jones We know not what he says we desire to understand what he means L. H. Stew. He takes notice that Dugdale at the Tryal of Sir George Wakeman did depose touching a Letter dated the 12. of October which should come down to Tixal intimating the death of Sir Edmnndbury Godfrey and that he did communicate that with the Parson of Tixal and another which Parson comes now to say He did communicate no such a matter to him Sir VVill. Jones We desire to ask him whether he was present at that Tryal and heard him say so Mr. Philips I was not present at the Tryal but if the Narrative of the Tryal be truth he did say so L. H. Stew. So then you only come to disprove what is printed that Dugdale should say Mr. Philips Then I leave it to your Judgments whether what he said in the Narrative of that Tryal do concur with the Truth L. Stafford I desire then to ask him whether Stephen Dugdale did not run away from my Lord Aston's and would have him go to my Lord to own him for his Servant L. H. Steward What do you know of Dugdale's running away Mr. Philips I know nothing at all of that my Lords L. Stafford Whether he did speak to him for his Servant when he was in the Justices hands L. H. Stew. Can you say any thing touching the Credit of Dugdale Mr. Philips I have nothing to say concerning Dugdale's Credit L. H. Stew. Did you know him Mr. Philips Yes ever since I came
Have you done with Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Whom will you proceed against next L. Stafford Dr. Oats L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats L. Stafford Only give me leave to say one thing my Lords that you were pleased to say I should have Copies of the two Depositions of the Twenty fourth and Twenty ninth of December And I had one to inquire but can't find that of the Twenty ninth Then Dr. Oats stood up L. H. Stew. What say you to Dr. Oats my Lord Lord Stafford This Dr. Oats if your Lordships please I desire may be asked when was the first time he ever saw me in his life L. H. Steward When was the first time Dr Oats you saw my Lord Stafford Dr. Oats My Lords the first time I saw this Gentleman at the Bar was as near as I remember at Mr. Fenwicks L. H. Stew. That was in Drury lane Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. When was that Dr. Oats That was as near as I remember in June L. H. Stew. Was it that time the Commission you spoke of was delivered Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you see that Commission Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you read it Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. From whom was it Dr. Oats I cannot be positive as to that but as near as I remember it was signed as the rest was signed L. H. Stew. How was that Dr. Oats Johannes Paulus Oliva L. H. Stew. You read it Dr. Oats Yes I did my Lords L. H. Stew. It was a Commission to be Pay-Master of the Army was it not Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. And it was delivered to my Lord Dr. Oats Yes it was L. H. Stew. By the Name of Mr. Howard of Effingham Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. What says your Lordship to this L. Stafford What is it possible for me to say against this I declare to your Lordships in the presence of God I never saw the man in my life I never went by any Name since I had the Honour of being a Peer but by the name of Stafford I never heard of Mr. Fenwick the Jesuit nor by the name Thompson till this Plot was discovered and he taken This you may believe or not if you please but this is as true as I am alive My Lords I desire I may have out of the Journals the Deposition on which I was committed L. H. Stew. Turn to the Journal L. Stafford It was read as I remember Friday 25. Octob. 78. Then the Clerk turned to the Journal and read Die Veneris 25. die Octobris 1678. THe Lord Viscount Stafford acquainted the House That he was informed that there was a Warrant issued out from the Lord Chief Justice of England to apprehend him which he thought fit to acquaint their Lordships with and submitted himself their Lordships Judgment The Lord Chief Justice being present was commanded to give the House an account of the business who said That last night about nine of the clock he received a Letter from the Speaker of the House of Commons dated from the Speakers Chair to come to the House of Commons about business of great concernment Accordingly he attended the House of Commons where the Speaker told him that the House of Commons had receiv'd Accusations of High Treason against five Lords and some Gentlemen and desired him to issue out his Warrants for their Apprehension The Persons were the Earl of Powis Viscount Stafford the Lord Arundel of Wardour the Lord Petres and the Lord Bellasis And upon this he issued out his Warrants for their Apprehension having taken the Examination of Titus Oats upon Oath That the Earl of Powis and the Lord Arundel were brought to him this morning in custody and he advised them to render themselves to the Gatehouse where now they are Upon this the Examination of Oats was read whereby it did appear That the Lord Viscount Stafford was charged to be in a Conspiracy of Treason against the King The Lord Viscount Stafford denyed the Fact and after this withdrew And after a while the House was informed that his Lordship would render himself to the Lord Chief Justice L. H. Stew. This is all that is in the Journal L. Stafford Then my Lords if your Lordships please to remember all of you that were there that I was accused by Dr. Oats whose Depositions I desire to see taken before my Lord Chief Justice that he had seen Letters of mine written to Fenwick Harcourt and some others three or four Jesuits in which I was consenting to the Plot that I had sent my Son to Lisbon yet I would be as kind to the Jesuits as before though there was some difference between us These Affidavits I desire to see which as I take it were read before your Lordships that day L. H. Stew. The Affidavit was taken by my Lord Chief Justice in the House of Commons where he did attend them upon their Summons I know not if the Original were read in the House of Lords or the Copy but it seems it is not entred into the Lords Journal but your Lordship had an Order to take Copies of all things you would have demanded and if you would not I cannot tell what to say to it L. Stafford Truly I could not take a Copy because I did not know where it was I desire my Lord Chief Justice may be asked where it is that is all I desire and I will then go on L. H. Stew. I think Dr. Oats does say at this time that he had seen Letters of your Lordships offering your Correspondence and Assistance L. Stafford If Dr. Oats will own he said no more than is in that Affidavit I am content Lord High Steward Have you any Copy of your own Examination Doctor Oats Dr. Oats Yes my Lords I think I have it here L. H. Stew. Marry that is very well produce it then Do you oppose it Gentlemen Managers No we agree we desire the Truth may come out Then Dr. Oats looking amongst his Papers drew out one and offered it to the Court. L. H. Stew. Is that a true Copy of your first Examination Dr. Oates My Lords I will not swear it but it was given me for a true Copy L. H. Stew. By whom was it given you Dr. Oates I can't remember now 't is two years ago Sir W. Jones Unless we know whence it comes or what authority it hath we cannot consent it should be read L. H. Steward Had you it from my Lord Cheif Justice or any servant of his Dr. Oates I can't tell whether Sir Charles Harbord gave it me or no. Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Sir Charles Harbord might be of the Committee of Examinations but the Examination for which my Lord asked was not in the Committee nor before the house My Lord chief Justice retired out of the house Virtute Officii took it Now it was very fair in Mr.
Oates to produce it but yet in point of Evidence if he will not swear it to be a true Copy or give an account how he came by it we cannot allow it to be read L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford 'T is you that want this Paper you desire to have the benefit of the Examination that was taken of Mr. Oates and therefore you must produce a Copy of it Lord Stafford My Lords I could never get it L. H. Stew. 'T is not entred in our Journal nor is it to be traced we know not where it is You have had time enough to look after it You are now offered by Oates himself a Copy that was given him for a true Copy though he can't swear by whom Are you content that shall be read if the Gentlemen will admit it Lord Stafford By what I guess of Dr. Oates I know him not he would not give in a Copy of an Examination unless it were true if it be true I know not what should hinder the reading of it but as far as concerns me I desire it may be read L. H. Stew. You do Consent and will you Gentlemen permit it Mr. Serjeant Maynard We do not know whence it comes we can't admit it unless Oates says 't is true Sir William Jones My Lords it hath been long in the Doctors possession he hath read it over he can't say 't is a true Copy but I desire to ask him whether all in that writing be true and whether he did swear what is in that writing L. H. Stew. If your Lordships please thus and you Gentlemen of the House of Commons The best way to have an answer to this Question is that it may be read de bene esse Sir Fran. Winn. Pray my Lords let him read it over to himself privately and then let us know whether he can swear the same things that are in that Paper which Dr. Oates began to do Dr. Oats Your Lordships ask only as to my Lord Stafford L. H. Stew. My Lord desires no more but pray read it over all and give your Answer to all for that Question may be will be asked in other Cases and 't is fit you should be provided for it which he did L. H. Stew. What say you Doctor Dr. Oats My Lords I do verily believe I did swear the Contents of that Paper L. Stafford My Lords I do not oppose the reading of that Paper but I have here a Copy of something in the Journal and do not stand upon my memory but I think upon the viewing of it now there is something in the Copies of the Journal Clerks We cannot find it L. Stafford Then read this Paper L. H. Steward Will you have this Copy of the Examination read or not L. Stafford Yes my Lords Clerk The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken before us L. H. Stew. When was that Clerk The 24. of October 1678. L. H. Steward That was read the 25. the next day in the House of Lords The Examination of Titus Oats Clerk taken by us the 24. of October 1678. THis Examinant saith That in the Month of May last this Examinant saw a Patent under the Seal of the Father general of the Society of Jesus at Rome called Johannes Paulus Oliva at the Chamber of Mr. Langhorn wherein it was expressed That by vertue of a Breve from the Pope he did Constitute the Lord Arundel of Wardour Lord High Chancellor of England which Patent was sent to the Lord Arundel of Wardour by a Messenger who was the Son of Mr. Langhorn And this Examinant saith That he saw a Letter subscribed by the Lord Arundell of Wardour as he believes wherein the Lord Arundel did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and accepted of the same and promised to answer the expectation of the Society This Examinant saith That in June last he saw the like Patent wherein the Lord Powis was Constituted Lord Treasurer of England which Patent was carried by one Parsons Secretary to the Lord Powis from one Saunders House in Wild-street to be delivered to the Lord Powis and at the delivery of the Patent 3001 was paid by Parsons to Fenwick and Ireland to carry on the design of the Jesuits which was to raise a Rebellion in the three Kingdoms and to destroy the King In the Month of July this Examinant saw a Letter subscribed Powis and directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship did acknowledge the receipt of the said Patent and did accept of the same and said he had 300 Men and Horse ready for the Design and that his Lordship would venture his life and fortune in the Affair In the month of August last this Examinant saw a Letter directed to Mr. Langhorn by the outside but within to the Society of the Jesuits wherein Sir William Godolphin acknowledged he had received the like Patent to be Lord Privy Seal and had accepted thereof and in July 1677. this Examinant saw the same in the hands of the Archbishop of Tuam at Madrid in Spain This Examinant saith that in July last Mr. Coleman ackowledged and confessed to Fenwick in this Examinants presence that he had received the like Patent to be Secretary of State and that it was a good exchange This Examinant saith that in May June July and August last this Examinant saw several Letters signed Stafford whereby it appeared that the Lord Stafford was in this Conspiracy against His Majesty and that he had returned several Sums of Mony to the Jesuits to carry on the Design the Letters were directed to Fenwick and Ireland and in August last this Examinant saw another Letter directed to the same persons signed Stafford wherein my Lord writ that although he had sent his Son to Lisbon yet he would be ne'r the worse friend to the Jesuits and this Examinant conceiveth the Reason of that Letter was because there was then a difference between the English Colledge at Lisbon and the Jesuits in July last this Examinant saw in the hands of Fenwick a Commission directed to the Lord Bellasis from the person aforesaid to be Lord General of the Army to be raised in England against His Majesty and in July this Examinant saw a Letter from my Lord directed to Fenwick wherein his Lordship acknowledged the receipt of the Commission and thanked the Society for the same and that he accepted the same and would do what in him lay to answer their expectations In May last this Examminant saw a Patent in the hands of Mr. Langhorn to make my Lord Petres Lieutenant-General of the Army and in June last this Examinant did hear my Lord Petres in the presence of Mr. Longworth his Confessor acknowledge the receipt of the same and that he accepted thereof and his Confessor wished him much joy thereof Lord Stafford My Lords if this be owned for truth that he swore then I proceed upon the Evidence of that L. H. Stew. Without allowing it to be a true Copy Dr. Oats at
the Bar does swear what is said there is true Lord Stafford Then he says there he saw Letters signed by me to Fenwick and others I do humbly desire to know whether that be Evidence or no that a man says he saw Letters and does not say he knew them to be my hand nor what the Letters were in particular nothing that he did prove of it I must appeal to your Lordships to all my Lords to my Lord High Steward and the rest that were of the Council at that time whether Dr. Oats did not positively name some and left ne out at the Council Table And whether Dr. Oats did not say there was no Lord concerned in the Plot and whether some of my Lords did not say so and told some other Lords of it from whom I had it And in order to this desire Sir Philip Lloyd may be examined and if he did not know of my being in it then he hath since forsworn himself L. H. Stew. My Lord I know not where you are nor what you are about are you objecting against Oats upon any Evidence out of the Journal Lord Stafford My Lords I go upon this that hath been read L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord produce your Witnesses that did hear him say any thing and take your advantage of it Lord Stafford I call Sir Philip Lloyd L. H. Stew. Where is Sir Philip Lloyd L. Stafford My Lords I do not know I think he is here I hope he will come Then he appeared amongst the Members of the House of Commons and was called to the Bar amongst the other Witnesses and stood up L. H. Stew. What does your Lordship ask Sir Philip Lloyd L. Staff Whether he was not by when Dr. Oats was asked if there were any Lords concerned in the Plot and he said no and whether he did not tell me so a day or two before I was committed in the Pâ—inces Lodgings L. H. Stew. What say you Sir Philip â—loyd did you ever hear Dr. Oats deny upon his Oath that ever he heard of any Lords that were concerned in the Plot Sir Philip Lloyd My Lords Truly I cannot remember any such thing If my Lord put me in mind of any particular Circumstance or time I may recollect it I must confess I think I have heard such a thing rumor'd but I am so unfortunate I cannot remember any thing positively of it L. Stafford He did tell me so I am sure Sir Philip Lloyd Truly my Lords I would be glad to remember any thing to justifie the Truth but I can't remember this L. Stafford But whether it were so or no your Lordships that were of the Council can tell L. H. Steward My Lord I do not know Your Lordship cannot be refused if you press it to ask any of the Lords of the Council if they remember any such thing that did pass there but if I were there or in the Council I deal plainly with your Lordship I cannot say that there was any such thing said L. Stafford If there be any here that were there besides I desire they may be asked L. H. Stew. If your Lordship will call upon any other of my Lords that were there they will tell you Lord Stafford I do not know who were there I can't call them L. H. Stew. You may ask any of the Lords of the Council who were there that time Dr. Oats was examined Lord Marquess of Worcester My Lords I was not at the Council then but I heard it not there indeed but as a general Report abroad L. Stafford I desire my Lord Privy Seal may tell what he knows of it Lord Privy Seal What is it your Lordship would know of me L. Stafford Whether Oats did not say he had no more to accuse Lord Privy Seal Where my Lord L. Stafford At the Council Table Lord Privy Seal 'T is a very hard thing for me to charge my memory with all the Questions at an Examination we use to refer to the Examinations themselves I have seen some Examinations I wish all were so wherein the Questions are put down as well as the Answers and I cannot charge my memory that he said he had no more to accuse L. Staff I desire then all the Lords of the Council that are here to say whether or no he was not asked this Question particularly by my Lord Chancellor and I desire particularly his Lordship would say whether he can't remember it whether he had any thing to say against some Lords and he answered they were to know of it but God forbid he should accuse them L. H. Stew. When should that be L. Stafford My Lords I can't say the day for I was not in Town But I desire to ask whether you did not ask him upon the first Discovery of the Plot whether he had any thing to say against some Lords L. H. Stew. Do you desire to know whether I asked him this Question if he had any thing to say against some Lords L. Stafford I do not say positively your Lordship but whether that Question was not asked him L. H. Stew. Certainly I should never ask any such Question of any man alive I might ask in general of any Lord but not of some L. Stafford Some or other Lords it was L. H. Steward I don't remember it and 't is impossible for any man living to remember what Questions he did ask two or three years ago upon an Examination L. Stafford I desire I may have leave to ask the Earl of Berkley a Question L. H. Steward What is it you would ask him L. Stafford My Lords I humbly ask his Lordship whether he did not hear Dr. Oats say after he had accused some persons before the Council that he had no more to accuse Earl of Berkley My Lords I had the Honour to be of the Privy Council about the time of the Discovery of the Plot but I do not remember that I heard Dr. Oats say any such thing there L. Staff Or in the House of Lords for I may mistake And therefore I desire my Lord of Berkley would declare what he heard Dr. Oats say before the House of Lords Earl of Berkley Yes my Lords in the Lords House I will tell your Lordships what I remember My Lord Chancellor to the best of my remembrance did ask Dr. Oats at the Bar of the House this Question My Lords desire to know if you can accuse any other Person or Persons of what Quality soever and you are incouraged by their Lordships to Accuse them His Answer was My Lords I have no more to accuse in relation to England but in relation to Ireland I have L. H. Steward That was after he had accused your Lordship my Lord Stafford Sir W. Jones We pray my Lords we may have the favour to ask that very Honourable Lord at what time Dr. Oats said this for the satisfaction of those that are present Earl of Berkley My Lords it was after Dr. Oats had accused my
Lord Stafford but before he had accused the Queen L. Stafford I beseech you my Lords to mark it and I am very glad of it he said he had no more to accuse in relation to England and yet after that he accused the Queen L. H. Stew. My Lord then the best account of it will be on the Journal the Question and Answer is entred there Die Jovis 31. die Octobr. 1678. Post Meridiem TItus Oats being at the Bar is directed to proceed in giving an Account of the Commissions given to several Lords and other Persons for Offices Civil and Military Upon which he proceeded in a particular Narrative thereof with some Circumstances tending to make out the truth thereof and then was commanded to withdraw but stay without Then upon Consideration had hereof the Lord Chancellor by directions of the House caused him to be called in again and told him that the Lords expect not his entring into particular Circumstances but if there be particular Persons concerned of what Quality soever they be the House expected he should name them but he named none but those he had mentioned in his Narrative nor could name no other Person Lord Stafford Then my Lords he said He knew no Persons more than he he had discovered and after did he not accuse the Queen and several others if he said true then he knew no body more if not he is Forsworn Sir VVill. Jones Pray prove he did Accuse the Queen L. Stafford He did so in the Council and he is clearly Perjured in that and so not to be believed And I say besides after that Dr. Oats had consulted with himself and possibly with some others what his Narrative should be and what he should accuse Persons of and did only accuse me of seeing some Letters signed Stafford and now he comes to give Evidence he knows more of my having a Commission After this rate it may be he may know a great deal more to morrow when he hath invented it And 't is a great sign he did not know of any more if he did know of that for I never had any Correspondence with the Jesuits nor any business transacted with them these twenty four or twenty five years Indeed at Ghent the English Jesuits were desired to do a little thing for me and they refused it me it was to send over a man that was to be a Witness in a Suit I had beyond Sea And I never writ one Letter to a Jesuit since nor he to me that I know of nor never had to do with them that I know of I never heard of Fenwicks Name nor Harcourts till I heard of the Plot nor of Johnson nor Thompson Jesuits and if any can prove it I will acknowledge my self guilty of all that is said against me And for that Dr. Oats at first said He only saw Letters of mine and after comes and accuses me of a Commission I appeal to your Lordships if there can be any truth or belief in him I cannot say more than what I have said already and I do challenge Dr. Oats at the day of Judgment to say if ever he saw me in his life till I was committed or if I did ever go by any Name but that of Stafford I will be content to dye immediately If I had gone by the Name of Howard I need not be ashamed of it for 't is a Name good enough to be owned I know there is a worthy Gentleman that bears the Name of Howard of Effingham but I never did If your Lordships please to let me ask Mr. Dugdale one Question L. H. Stew. Call Dugdale again who appeared What say you to him my Lord L. Stafford I desire to ask Dugdale whether he did not in his Depositions before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon swear that the 20 th of October I offered him 500 l. to kill the King Mr. Dugdale No September L. Stafford Ay September Mr. Dugdale Yes I think I did make that Deposition before Captain Lane I am certain I did that my Lord Stafford the 20 th or 21 th of September offered me 500 l. L. Stafford Then did not he say presently upon this he went to Mr. Evers Chamber L. H. Stew. He says so now Mr. Dugdale My Lords I am not certain it was the same day it was assoon as I could have opportunity it was presently after Lord Stafford Did he not say he told Erers what I said to him and he did not understand the meaning of it Mr. Dugdale I did say so to Mr. Evers I did ask Mr. Evers what my Lord Stafford's meaning was whether his intention was true or no to do as he said and whether my Lord was in that Condition as to be able to perform his promise for I feared payment of the mony and he told me Harcourt and the rest of the Jesuits would furnish it L. H. Steward So he said Yesterday L. Staff Then ask him if he did not say the beginning of September I met him at Tixal and I spake to him about such a business Mr. Dugdale My Lords I did say to the best of my Remembrance it was about that time the latter end of August or the beginning of September I would not be positive nor could not to five days Lord Stafford No I think not to 5000. Then I askt him this Question whether he did not presently upon that when I told him about the Design go to Mr. Evers and ask what it meant L. H. Steward He said so but now he went to Evers and asked what you meant L. Stafford I beseech you I may be understood whether he did not say in the beginning of September which was before the 20. or 21. in the Journal L. H. Stew. Is it in the Journal L. Stafford Yes L. H. Stew. Why then read it Die Sabbati 28. Decembris 1678. The Earl of Essex acquainted the House that he had received an Information out of the Countrey of very great Concernment which was read as followeth Staffordsh December 24th 1678. The Information of Stephen Dugdale Gent. late servant to the Lord Aston of Tixal concerning the Plot against our Soveraign Lord the King as followeth 1. THis Informant saith that presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went beyond the Seas he was told by George Hobson Servant to the said Lord Aston that there was a Design then intended for the Reformation of the Government to the Romish Religion 2. He informeth that in the beginning of September 1678. he met in Tixal nigh the Lord's Gates the Lord Stafford who said to this Informant it was said that they were troubled for that they could no say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there was but a good Success they should enjoy their Religion And upon the 20 th day of September last the said Lord Stafford told this Informant that there was a Design in hand and
to any one but I have no more to say to him now There is a third Witness one Turbervill I desire to ask him a Question L. H. Stew. Call Turbervill who stood up Lord Stafford I desire to know what time he came to serve my Lady Molineaux for it is in the beginning of the Information in the House of Commons that he came in the year 73. and how long he staid with her L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford if your Lordship please there was an offer made to you that those Affidavits should be produced if you desired to see them L. Stafford I think I shall have no occasion as yet it may be I may by and by But I desire to ask him this Question first whether he did not say he came in the year 73. into my Lady Mary Molineaux her Service and staid with her about three years L. H. Stew. Did he swear in the year 73. he came L. Stafford 'T is so in his Narrative in Print L. H. Stew. Do you own that Narrative in Print for true Mr. Turbervill No my Lords L. H. Stew. How can you challenge him then with a Narrative he does not own L. Stafford Then what can a man do if he must not go according to what is Printed Mr. Turbervill There is a mistake in the Printing of it there is a mistake of 73. for 72. L. Stafford I now desire that Affidavit may be produced L. H. Steward Pray let him have the benefit that was offered him of the Affidavit Mr. Turbervill Besides I declared I could not be positive to a year I own any thing else in it L. Stafford Then my Lords if I shall have fellows that will not swear to Months nor to years I beg of your Lordships to know whether these be legal Witnesses Managers The Affidavit is in the Custody of Sir William Poulteney a Member of our House Sir Will. Poulteney My Lords I have the Affidavit if you please I shall give you an account what I did upon it and Sir Thomas Stringer another Justice of Peace My Lords after that Mr. Turbervill had given his Evidence to the House of Commons Vivavoce he tendred to them this Information that I have in my hand The House of Commons after it had been read thought it might be convenient to have it sworn to before two Justices of Peace Whereupon Sir Thomas Stringer and my self withdrew into the Speakers Chamber Mr. Turbervill came to us we read over the Information to him again and after we had read it over it was signed and he swore it In this Information when we then took it he declared there that he came to my Lord Powis in the year 1673 and came into England 1676. After we had sworn him we carried this Information into the House again The next morning my Lords he came to me I being one of the Justices that had sworn him and told me that searching among his Papers the last night for a Letter which he had said he had received from my Lord Stafford sent to Diep though he could not find the Letter he looked for yet he found that the precise time that he went to live with my Lord Powis was 1672 and the precise time of his coming into England was 1675. And he desired me to acquaint the House of Commons with it that this Circumstance of time might be altered Whereupon my Lords I did acquaint the House of Commons with it how he was mistaken in that point of a Circumstance of time and that he came of his own accord and desired me to move the House in it I moved the House and they did direct we should withdraw again and take his Information again and that he should amend it he amended it and made the 73 72 and the 76 75 and then afterwards we swore him to it again de novo and this is the matter of Fact concerning the Affidavit L. H. Stew. Sir William Poultney Did Mr. Turbervill correct the mistake himself first or was it found and altered by others Sir William Poultney My Lords he came to me for I did not know any thing of it that he was mistaken but he came to me the next morning assoon as ever I came to the House before indeed I entred into the House and told me of the mistake and told me the reasons how he came to recollect himself and find out the mistake L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill I would ask you the Question how came you to be informed that you had mistaken your self Mr. Turbervill My Lords I 'll tell you I was searching for a Letter which I received from my Lord Stafford and missing that I found my Discharge I had from the French Army wherein I saw my mistake as to the time and that I have to produce L. H. Stew. I ask you again by the Oath you have taken did you correct it of your self or by information from any other Mr. Turbervill By the Oath I have taken I did correct it of my self and no body moved it to me Mr. Serj. Mayn It was but a Circumstance of time Sir Fran. Winn. And corrected by himself the very next morning my Lords L. Stafford He does acknowledge he did forswear himself once and did make himself an honest man the next day when he was a perjured Villain the day before And now he tells your Lordships that he was searching for a Letter that I sent to him but he cannot find it Mr. Turbervill No my Lords I thought I had it but I cannot find it L. Stafford No I 'le swear thou canst not But then he does say that he had a Discharge from the French Army Mr. Turbervill Yes 't is here my Lord. L. H. Stew. Is that the Paper of your Discharge Mr. Turbervill Yes it is 'T is worn out a little and torn but the Seal is preserved I did not know that ever I should have occasion to make use of it but my Lord Challenging me for a Coward and a Deserter of my Colours L. Stafford I say so still for I have heard so L. H. Stew. Your Honour is not in question Mr. Turbervill Mr. Turbervill The Title is a little torn and if your Lordships please I will read it which he did being in French and is rendred in English in these words THis certifieth to all to whom it shall appertain that I have given an absolute Discharge to the Sieur Turbervill a Cavalier of my Company after having served the space of six months with all Honour and Fidelity Therefore I desire those that are to be desired to treat him Civilly and let him pass and re-pass without doing him any Injury or giving him any hindrance But on the contrary to afford him all Aid and Assistance where it shall be necessary promising the like upon all occasions that shall require it In Confirmation of which I have for him signed this present Discharge and thereto put the Seal of my Arms to
serve him in case he shall need it Made at the Camp before Air this 4. of August 1676. Sheldon L. H. Steward What is the date of that Discharge Turbervill Mr. Turbervill 'T is in August 76. L. Stafford May I see it my Lords L. H. Stew. Yes deliver it to my Lord which was done and he looked upon it L. Stafford The thing looks like truth but there is no proof of it Mr. Turbervill The Seal is a little broke but the Name remains perfect L. Stafford He says here is a dismission from the Army in 76. how will that rectifie this mistake about 73. I understand not that Then the Court called for the Paper and it was looked upon by the Duke of Monmouth and some other Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this Paper hath been looked upon the Hand is well known by those that should know it L. Stafford I do not say the contrary L. H. Stew. Whereabouts are you now my Lord then L. Stafford I am extreamly faint and weary that I am sure of This Gentleman told you yesterday that he spoke with me several times in France and that he was conversant with me for a fortnight together that he visited me and I proposed the Killing of the King to him and that he refused to give me an Answer then but told me he would give it me at Diep This he said yesterday as I remember And afterwards when he was gone down he came up again and desired to put your Lordships in mind of a particular Circumstance which he said he did remember That when he came to me I had the Gout and was in a lower Room of the House in such a Street which faced Luxenburgh House all which I stand not upon and that the Prince of Conde lived in the same Street on the left hand he said first and after on the right hand and after he knew not where and that I did lodge in the same Street Mr. Turbervill I did say I believed the Prince of Conde lived there but was not positive L. Stafford No but first he swears a thing and then only believes it Be pleased to call my Servants to know if ever I had my Foot ill of the Gout in my life Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship told me it was the Gout Lord Stafford If ever I put my Foot on a Stool or was lame there I will own all that he says But when a man swears his Evidence and goes down from the place and then invents and comes up again to tell new stories who shall believe such a man Mr. Turbervill I never went from the Bar. Lord Stafford I do say yâ—â— went down and had given all your Evidence and came up again and told this Circumstance I have not been lame not one moment these forty years and yet this Fellow this impudent Fellow to say that I was lame and put my Foot on a Stool He does not my Lords swear positively in any thing but this and this I can easily disprove in him L. H. Steward What say you to this particular Turbervill Had my Lord Stafford never the Gout while he was in France Mr. Turbervill He told me it was the Gout my Lords He had a great lameness he could not go from one place to another Here are several people to give Testimony that my Lord was lame within less time than he says Mr. Foley Hold hold Turbervill you must not give that Evidence now L. Stafford Call Nicholas Furnese again L. H. Steward What do you call him for L. Stafford Ask whether ever he saw Mr. Turbervill with me in France L. H. Stew. Were you with my Lord Stafford all the while he was in France Furnese Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you never see Turbervill there Furnese No. L. H. Stew. Pray did you never see Father Anthony Turbervill there Furnese No my Lords I never heard of his Name L. Stafford Was I ever one moment lame while I was in France Furnese Not that I remember L. H. Stew. How long was my Lord there Furnese About three Months L. H. Stew. What time of the year Furnese At Paris in October and November in December at Rohan in January we came over into England L. Stafford Ask him if ever I put my Foot upon a Cushion or upon a Stool for lameness Lord. High Steward Mr. Turbervill did you ever see Furnese when you were in France Mr. Turbervill This Man my Lords L H. Stew. Yes Mr. Turbervill No not that I remember L. H. Stew. In what quality did you serve my Lord in France Furnese Furnese My Lords I waited on him in his Chamber L. H. Stew. Do you remember any other Servant of my Lords that you did see there Mr. Turbervill Truly my Lords I don't remember I might forget him Lord Stafford So I believe thou dost me too Mr. Turbervill Your Lordship that could call me Coward may say any thing L. Stafford You shall be as valiant as Hector if you will Pray call my other Boy Who stood up L. H. Stew. You little Boy were you all the while with my Lord that he was in France Leigh Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Did you ever see Turbervill there Leigh No my Lords not that I know of L H. Stew. Had my Lord the Gout in France Leigh No nor never had since I have been with him L. H. Stew. That is six years Leigh Seven years almost my Lords L. H. Stew. Are you sure of that Leigh I am sure of it L. Stafford Now my Lords Mr. Turbervill says I writ him a Letter to Diep which Letter he can't find I beseech you what were the Contents of the Letter L. H. Stew. What were the Contents of the Letter my Lord sent you Mr. Turberv The Contents of the Letter were that I should not stay at Diep in expectation of him for he had appointed a Yatcht to come to Calice but I should make what haste I could to London and there I should meet with him L. Stafford I desire to ask whether I sent him word that Count Gramont came over with me Mr. Turbervill Yes my Lords to the best of my remembrance L. Stafford I shall now bring Witnesses that I did not come by Calice but by Diep and Count Gramont came not with me L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill which way came you from Diep or from Calice Mr. Turbervill From Diep my Lords L. Stafford And I came from Diep too L. H. Stew. My Lord came that way too he says Mr. Turbervill I know not of it he sent me word otherwise L. Stafford I shall now prove what I say pray call Mr. Wyborne VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord L. Stafford Whether he did not see me at Diep and embark from thence for England Mr. VVyborne My Lords I will give you an Account as well as I can In the year 75. in December I had occasion to go over into France upon my own Concerns and
enquiring where there was a conveniency to go over I heard that a Yatcht was sending to Diep for my Lord Stafford and Mr. Henry Sidney His Majesties Envoy Extraordinary now in Holland I took that occasion and we weighed Anchor on Friday the 24. of December and it being foul weather and we being tossed long upon the Sea we did not come to an Anchor before Diep till Sunday was sevennight at Two a Clock in the Afternoon which was January 2. Then I came with the Captain immediately ashoar to enquire for my Lord and Mr. Sidney I enquired for my Lord and they told me he was at Rohan expecting to hear of the arrival of the Yatcht upon which the Captain desired me to write a Letter to my Lord and I did so upon sight of which Letter he came to Diep on Tuesday in the Afternoon which was as I take it the 4. of January and we were at the Bastile there then together when he came that evening and the next day I went on my own occasions to Paris and my Lord and Mr. Sidney did come over together in the Yatcht L. Stafford If you please I will call my two Servants again to this matter Lord. High Steward Call them my Lord. Then Furnese and Leigh stood up Lord High Steward Which way came my Lord Stafford out of France into England by Diep or by Calice Furnese By Diep L. H. Steward What say you Boy which way came my Lord Leigh By Diep my Lords L. H. Steward You came with him Leigh Yes we did L. H. Stew. My Lord The Question is not whether you came by Calice or no but whether you writ a Letter to him to Diep that you would go by Calice Lord Stafford He swore yesterday that I did come by Calice L. H. Stew. Do you say my Lord came by Calice Mr. Turbervill My Lords I had a Letter from his Lordship which he wrote to me that he would come by Calice L. Stafford He did not name the Letter yesterday nor is 't in the Information L. H. Stew. Read the Affidavit The Information of Edward Turbervill of Skerr in the County of Glamorgan Gent. WHo saith That being a younger Brother about the Year 1672 he became Gentleman Usher to the Lady Mary Molineaux Daughter to the Earl of Powis and by that means lived in the House of the said Earl about three Years and by serving and assisting at Mass there grew intimate with William Morgan Confessor to the said Earl and his Family who was a Jesuit and Rector over all the Jesuits in North-Wales Shropshire and Staffordshire And he during the three years time often heard the said Morgan tell the said Earl and his Lady that the Kingdom was in a high Fever and that nothing but Blood-letting could restore it to Health and then the Catholick Religion would flourish Whereunto the said Earl many times replied It was not yet time but he doâ—â—ted not but such means should be used in due time or words to that effect And he heard the Lady Powis tell the said Morgan and others publickly and privately That when Religion should be restored in England which she doubted not but would be in a very short time she would persuade her Husband to give 300 l. per annum for a Foundation to maintain a Nunnery and this Informant was persuaded by the Lady Powis and the said Morgan to become a Fryar the said Lady enâ—ouraging this Informant thereunto by saying that if he would follow his Studies and make himself capable she questioned not but he might shortly be made a Bishop by her Interest in England because upon Restauration of the Catholick Religion there would want People fit to make Bishops and to do the Business of the Church and thereupon she gave this Informant Ten Pounds to carry him to Doway where this Informant entred the Monastery and continued about three weeks and with much difficulty made his escape thence and returned for England for which the said Earl and his Lady and all the rest that encouraged him to go to the Monastery became his utter Enemies threatning to take away his Life and to get his Brother to disinherit him which last is compassed against him And Father Cudworth who was than Guardian of the Fryars at Doway some days before his escape thence told this Informant That if he should not persevere with them he should lose his life and friends And further added That this King should not last long and that his Successor should be wholly for their purpose And Father Cross Provincial of the Fryars told this Informant That had he been at Doway when this Informant made his escape thence he should never have come to England And this Informant finding himself friendless and in danger in England went to Paris where one of his Brothers is a Benedictine Monk who persuaded this Informant to return for England and in order thereunto about the latter end of November 1675. he was introduced into the acquaintance of the Lord Stafford that he might go for England with his Lordship and three weeks he attended his Lordship and had great access and freedom with his Lordship who gave him great assurances of his Favour and Interest to restore him to his Relations esteem again And said That he had a piece of service to propose to this Informant that would not only retrieve his Reputation with his own Relations but also oblige both them and their Party to make him happy as long he lived And this informant being desirous to embrace so happy an Opportunity was very inquisitive after the means but the said Lord Stafford being somewhat difficult to repose so great a Trust as he was to communicate to him exacted all the Obligations and Promises of secresie which this Informant gave his Lordship in the most solemn manner he could invent Then his Lordship laboured to make this Informant sensible of all the advantages that would accrue to this Informant and the Catholick Cause and then told this Informant in direct terms that he might make himself and the Nation happy by taking away the Life of the King of England who was a Heretick and consequently a Rebel against God Almighty Of which this Informant desired his Lordship to give him time to consider and told his Lordship that he would give him his Answer at Diep where his Lordship intended to ship for England and to take this Informant with him but this Informant going before to Diep the Lord Stafford went with Count Gramont by Calice and sent this Informant orders to go for England and to attend his Lordship at London but this Informant did not attend his Lordship at London but went into the French service and so avoided the Lord Stafford's further importunities in that Affair And this Informant further saith That one Remige a French woman and vehement Papist who married this Informants Brother lived with the Lady Powis all the time this Informant resided there
and some years since and was the great Confident of the said Lady and the said Remige was for the most part taken with her Ladyship into Morgan's Chamber when the Consults were held there where he hath often seen Father Gavan Father Towers Father Evans Father Sylliard Roberts White Owens Barry and the Earl of Castlemain and other Priests and Jesuits meet and shut themselves up in the said Morgan's Chamber sometimes for an Hour sometimes for two Hours more or less and at the breaking up of the said Consults have broke out into an extasie of joy saying They hoped ere long the Catholick Religion would be established in England and that they did not doubt to bring about their Design notwithstanding they had met with one great Disappointment which was the Peace struck up with Holland saying that if the Army at Blackheath had been sent into Holland to assist the French King when he was with his Army near Amsterdam Holland had certainly been conquered and then the French King would have been able to assist us with an Army to establish Religion in England Which expressions with many others importing their confidence to set up the Romish Religion they frequently communicated to this Informant And the said Morgan went several times into Ireland to London and several other parts of England as this Informant hath just cause to believe to give and take measures for carrying on the Design and the said Remige and her Husband having first clandestinely sold their Estate and fled into France about May or June last for fear of discovery This Informant by many Circumstances being assured that the said Mrs. Remige was privy to all or most of the Transactions of the Plot. And he saith that about May last was two Years he was present at Mass with the Lord Powis in Verestreet when the Earl of Castlemain did say Mass in his Priestly Habit after the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome EDWARD TVRBERVILL Sworn the 9th day of November 1680. before Thomas Stringer William Poulteny Edmund Warcupp L. H. Steward My Lord this Affidavit is to the purpose to which you call for it this does say that your Lordship did go by the way of Calice it does absolutely so L. Stafford Now whether he be forsworn or no your Lordships may judge by these three Witnesses Mr. Turbervill My Lords that which I grounded my belief of his going to Calice upon and so consequently that Affidavit was the Letter which I received from my Lord which I have looked for but cannot find L. H. Stew. This Affidavit does not say you went from Calice to England but you went with Count Gramont to Calice L. Stafford I conceive my Lords this Affidavit and his Narrative are word for word the same only that Amendment of 72 for 73 upon which I observed before he was forsworn once I cannot tell what to say if this man can be believed And Count Gramont came by Diep too but besides my Lords in this Affidavit he does not say he believed so by the Letter tho' now he speaks of one L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford was Count Gramont in your Lordships company when you came to Diep L. Stafford No my Lords he was in England before me a month but my Lords I cannot deny but I had one recommended to come over with me that pretended himself to be a French Count but the man was as errant a Rascal as this that swears against me and that was one that called himself Count de Brienne whom all the world knows to be a Cheat. L. H. Stew. Call your other Witnesses my Lord. L. Stafford Where is John Minhead Who stood up L. H. Steward Who do you belong to Minhead My Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords Mr. Turbervill he says by the persuasion of my Lady Powis went to Doway and he staid in the Monastery three weeks and not liking that life he came away this may be true I say nothing to it But that which I take Exception at is this He says for this the Earl of Powis and his Lady when he came back from Doway were very angry with him and so were all his Relations and he stood in fear of his life from them Surely when Mr. Turbervill knew he was in such danger he would not have come near them Pray ask this Gentleman whether he was at my Lord Powis's and how he was entertained L. H. Steward Do you know Turbervill Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Have you seen him at my Lord Powis's Minhead Yes my Lords L. H. Stew How was he received there Minhead Very well my Lords L. H. Stew When was that Minhead In the year 75. L. H. Stew. Was that before or after he came back to England Minhead It was after he came from Doway L. H. Stew. What Country man are you Minhead A French man L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Minhead A Roman Catholick L. Stafford Pray ask him whether he lay in my Lords house Minhead Yes my Lords he lay with me in my lodgings L. Stafford And yet he says he was afraid of his life L. H. Stew. Did my Lord know he lay there Minhead Yes he must needs because he came through the Room to go to Bed L. Stafford May it please your Lordships he says he was threatned that he should have his Brother disinherit him and which afterwards was compassed Now I shall shew that this is impossible for he had no Inheritance to lose nor was to have none for his Brother who is elder than he this man being by a second Venter hath Children as I shall make appear by another of his Brothers who is here And this not being settled upon him who was by the second Venter could not come to him but for want of Issue of that Brother must go to the Uncle So he swears he was disinherited of an Estate when he was to have no Estate nor could have Call Mr. John Turbervill who appeared My Lords I desire you to ask him whether he knew that upon his coming back to England he was ill used Mr. J. Turbervill I never knew any unkindness from my elder Brother to him L. H. Stew. Are you his Brother Mr. J. Turbervill Yes my Lords by the Father not by the Mother L. H. Stew. Well what can you say Mr. J. Turbervill I never heard any thing when he returned from Doway that he was ill received by my Lord Powis but in a few days after my Brother and Sister came to Town we went to Bloomesbury and there we met together and my Brother complaining that he was unfortunate in that he had undertaken what he could not perform in going beyond Sea and now wanted a Livelihood my eldest Brother told him he had done as far as his Ability was he could do no more it was his own Choice and he had no more to say L. Staff Had he any money from his Relations Mr. J. Turbervill He
made intercession by Friends to my Sister and she told me that she gave him 7 l. to bear his Charges to Paris with that Proviso that he would never trouble them more L. H. Stew. But were they not angry with him Mr. J. Turbervill Here he is he cannot say they ever gave him an angry word in their days I 'm sure I never did L. H. Stew. Did you not forbid him the House Mr. J. Turbervill No. Mr. Edw. Turbervill These are people that take not the Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy and therefore are not fit to be Witnesses L. Stafford Now your Lordships see what a Villain he is Mr. Serj. Maynard You must give good words my Lord for none but good words are given you Lord Stafford I must call them Villâ—ius or my self Traitor L. H. Steward You say they gave him 7 l. upon condition they should never see him more Mr. J. Turbervill I did not say my Sister said upon condition she would give him 7 l. he would never trouble us more it was his Declaration Lord Stafford One thing I wâ—â—ld ask Mr. Turbervill more and that is about this man's being disinherited Whether he could or whether he was Heir to any Estate or not L. H. Steward What say you to it Mr. J. Turbervill By all the Information of our Relations the Estate was made by my Grand-father to my Father for life and after my Fathers life to my Mothers and after my Mothers life to my Eldest Brother and the Heirs males of his Body and for want of such afterwards to me and the Heirs males of my Body and in case I had none then to my Fathers Brother and his Heirs males and if he had no Heirs males then after that to the right Heirs of the Grand-father This was before my time L. H. Stew. Well then that Remainder to the right Heirs might come to him and so there was some Estate for him to lose and that Remainder might be docked by the Tenant in Tail I would ask Was there any Recovery suffered to bar that Intail Mr. J. Turbervill Yes I think there was one upon my Brothers Marriage L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Were you told you should be disinherited Mr. E. Turbervill Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Who told you so Mr. E. Turbervill My eldest Brother L. H. Stew. What did he tell you Mr. E Turbervill He told me it should not come to me L. H. Stew. How should it come to you Mr. E. Turbervill I am not so good a Lawyer as to tell that whether it could or no but I thought by Succession Lord Stafford Then he says he came to serve my Lady Mullineux in 72. it may be it is so as he says I don't know it of my own knowledge but I pray he may answer whether it was in 71 or 72. Mr. J. Turbervill In January or February 71. Mr. Treby That is the beginning of the year 72 according to the Almanack L. Staff My Lords for the present I do not remember any thing more Oh yes my Lords he says he was at such a time at my Lord Powis's when my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle which must be either in the year 72 73 or 74. Now I desire you would ask Mr. Lydcot whether my Lord Castlemain was there or could be there in any of those years Then Lydcot stood up L. H. Stew. What do you ask him my Lord Lord Stafford I desire to ask him whether in the year 72 73 or 74. which are the years Turbervill says he was at my Lord Powis's at Powis-Castle whether my Lord Castlemain was at Powis-Castle or could be there at that time L. H. Stew. Was my Lord Castlemain there in any of those years Lydcot My Lords I can prove he was not as much as I am capable of proving a Negative I was with him in the years 72 73 and 74. L. H. Steward Where Lydcot He was in England in 73. I was with him all the while and I am sure since I knew him he was never in Wales and I was never absent from him since I knew him which is nine years not four months in all I have travelled with him and been abroad with him L. H. Stew. Turbervill When do you say my Lord Castlemain was at Powis Castle Mr. Turbervill I think it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. By what Token do you remember him there Mr. Turbervill He was arguing with my Lord Powis about Religion and several times he did so I believe it was in the year 73. L. H. Stew. What say you to that Lydcot I can assure your Lordships he was not there then I was always with him that year he had many times a design to go there but he could not but put it off and the last time he was there I can prove it was fifteen years ago L. H. Stew. I desire to know of you this Friend can you take it upon you to affirm upon the Faith of a Christian that you were never from my Lord Castlemain all the year 73 Lydcot I can give an account to half a week where he was And when I was absent from him it was beyond Sea and all that while I kept Correspondence with him every Post and received Letters from him constantly once a week dated from Liege This was in the time of my absence L. H. Stew. Were you at Liege when my Lord was in England or were you with him all the time that he was in England Lydcot My Lords I was with him all the time he was in England and was never absent from him all that compass of time but when he sent me into England from Liege L. H. Stew. Then he was at Liege himself Lydcot Yes my Lords L. H. Stew. Was that in the year 73 Lydcot Yes my Lords I was then in England But my Lords I can give you an whole account for my Lord and I never made any Journeys but I put them down L. H. Steward You say you can give a particular account of the whole year 73. even to the compass of four days in that year at most Lydcot No my Lords I do not say so but I say I can give an account of the whole time I have been with him within four months L. H. Stew. Were any of those months within the year 73 Lydcot No I was with him all the year 73. L. H. Stew. Will you take it upon you to say That every day in 73. you were with my Lord Lydcot Every day my Lords L. H. Stew. Every week Lydcot Yes I do not think but that I was My Lord did me the honour to make me as it were his Companion Mr. Serj. Maynard No you do your self the honour to make your self his Companion he made you his Servant L. H. Steward Come where are your Notes you pretend to speak by your Diary or your Journal let us hear a whole account of the year 73. for you come to testifie as if
Lord. High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we do Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords returned in their former Order to their House and the Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and a Message from the Lords was sent by Sir Timothy Baldwin and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House that they have Ordered the Prisoner William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to his Tryal at the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock The Fourth Day Friday December 3. 1680. ABout the Hour of Ten in the Morning the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall and returned in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Commons were seated as before mentioned The Court being sat Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant of the Tower commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward spake to the Prisoner as followeth L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford your Lordships Defence took up yesterday All the day was employed in hearing your Lordships Witnesses to impeach the Credit of the Testimony that hath been given against you Your Lordship hath excepted against Dugdale because you were not at Tixall as he says you were neither the latter end of August nor the beginning of September till the Twelfth and when you were there you never sent for him to your Chamber but your Man upon his own desire brought him and when he came there the business was to desire you to get leave that he might go to the Race and there was no opportunity of private Discourse because your Men were in the Room all the while That Dugdale hath often said he knew nothing of the Plot that he swore falsly when he said he told of the Letter about the death of Sir Edmunbury Godfrey before it was known he was killed and when he said that Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went over which was three years before Hobson came to my Lord Aston's Service Your Lordship hath likewise objected that he hath corrupted persons to swear falsly against you and others as Robinson the Upholsterer against your Lordship Morrall the Barber against Sir James Symons and Holt the Blacksmith to swear that one Moor carried away Evers Your Lordship hath endeavoured to discredit Oats by his saying he knew nothing of any other persons that were concerned in the Plot and after accusing the Queen Your Lordship hath Impeached the Credit of Turbervill by proving that you came home by Diep and not by Calice as he says you did That you had never the Gout while you were in France nor as your Page says for these seven years That my Lord Castlemain was not at my Lord Powis's in the year 73. and there you left off This I take is the Sum of what your Lordship says if I do you any wrong your Lordship will put me in mind of it L. Stafford I thank your Lordship you have done it with great Equity and Truth L. H. Stew. Then go on L. Stafford The next Witness that I call is one John Porter Who stood up L. H. Stew. What is your Name Witness John Porter L. H. Stew. What Profession are you of Porter A Butler L. H. Stew. To whom Porter To my Lord Powis L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships would ask him what Mr. Turbervill said about the Plot. L. H. Stew. I will ask him all the Questions your Lordship desires I should ask him Mr. Foley We desire to know what Religion he is of L. Stafford I desire your Lordships would ask him that Question and not the Managers L. H. Stew. They will tell me their Questions my Lord and I will ask them L. Staff They ask him my Lords and not you L. H. Stew. What Religion are you of Porter A Church of England man my Lords Mr. Serj. Maynard The Popish Church of England I believe L. Stafford Pray my Lords let not this be when my Witness says he is of the Church of England they cry he is of the Popish Church of England Mr. Serj. Maynard Pray good my Lord we are silent when you ask him proper Questions and make no Remarks we do not speak it to the Court we may say what we will among our selves I hope L. Staff I may ask impertinent Questions because I do not understand so well as these Gentlemen But I pray they may not deal thus with me L. H. Stew. My Lord you shall ask what Questions you please L. Stafford Pray ask him what Mr. Turbervill said to him about his knowledge of the Plot. L. H. Stew. What did Turbervill say to you about his knowing of the Plot Porter About a year since when I served my Lord Powis as Butler there he was used to come and see me it was not at my Lords House but he sent for me to a Victualling-House L. H. Stew. That was the last year Porter Yes L. H. Stew. What time of the Year Porter It was about Twelve Months ago I cannot say positively the time L. H. Stew. Was it Winter or Summer Porter He hath been both I can't be positive which I believe he hath been there 40 times L. H. Stew. In the year 80 or 79 Porter In the year 79. L. H. Stew. What did he say Porter He came there and asked me how my Lord Powis did and said he was extremely troubled that he was in that Affliction for he did verily believe that neither he nor the rest of the Lords were in the Plot and the Witnesses that swore against him he believed were perjured and could not believe any thing of it L. H. Stew. Have you any more to say Porter Yes my Lords I told him if there were such a thing as a Plot he having been beyond Sea must certainly know of it he told me as he hoped for Salvation he knew nothing of it neither directly nor indirectly against the Kings Sacred Person nor the Subversion of the Government And he further said Although I am a little low at present and my Friends will not look upon me yet I hope God Almighty will never leave me so much as to let me swear against innocent Persons and forswear and damn my self L. H. Stew. Where was this said to you Porter At the Ship Alehouse in Lincolns Inn Fields one time another time at the Kings Head Tavern in the Strand and another time at the Golden Ball in the Strand L. H. Stew. Was any body by besides your self Porter Not at that time but there is a Gentleman in Court that can testifie that he said such things at other times L. H. Stew. What say you to this Turbervill Mr. Turbervill I say 't is all false But if your Lordships please I 'll tell you what I said once I did conceive my Lord Powis was
the least concerned of any I thought and I hoped it would prove so I can take all the Oaths in the world I said no more L. H. Stew. What else do you know Porter Only such things as these he hath often said Earl of Shaftsbury Pray my Lords ask him how came Turbervill to talk of Witnesses about the Plot. L. H. Stew. Upon what occasion came Turbervill to talk of these matters Porter It was only voluntary of himself it was speaking of my Lord Powis and the rest of the Lords in the Tower Earl of Shaftsbury My Lords I mean of his own being a Witness L. H. Stew. How came Turbervill to say he hoped God Almighty would never forsake him so far as to let him swear against innocent Persons he was never called to be a Witness Porter But my Lords some of his Friends did say they were fearful of him in regard he was reduced to poverty His Friends were fearful L. H. Stew. Who were fearful Porter His Brother and Sister Mr. Turbervill and his Wife L. H. Steward Did he take notice to you that they were afraid he would come in Porter Yes Mr. Turbervill did tell me himself that they heard he would come in L. H. Stew. Have you said all you have to say Porter My Lords that is all I have to say L. H. Stew. Then call another my Lord. L. Stafford Where is Mr. Yalden Who stood up L. H. Steward What is your Name Witness Yalden L. H. Stew. Your Christian Name Witness John L. H. Stew. What is your Profession Yalden A Barrester at Law L. H. Stew. How long have you been called to the Bar Yalden I was called to the Bar last Trinity Term 12 months L. H. Stew. What House are you of Yalden Grays-Inn L. H. Stew. Are you a Practiser Yalden Yes my Lords L. H. Steward What Religion are you of Yalden Of the Church of England L. H. Steward Well what can you say Yalden I am summoned to appear by Order of this House and I desire to know of my Lord what he is pleased to examine me about L. Staff What Mr. Turbervill hath said in his hearing about the Plot. L. H. Stew. What Discourse hath passed between you and Turbervill about the Plot Yalden My Lords in February or March last I was walking in Grays-Inn-Walks with Mr. Turbervill and Mr. Powell and he dined with me a day or two after and there Mr. Turbervill and I were talking of the Distractions of the Times how Trade was ruined how the whole Kingdom was out of order and he was a little touched at some things and cryed out Go Dam me now there is no Trade good but that of a Discoverer but the Devil take the Duke of York Monmouth Plot and all for I know nothing of it L. H. Stew. That is odd that he should say it was a good Trade to be a Discoverer and at the same time say he knew nothing of the Plot. Yalden This I understood to be his meaning he cursed himself and them because he knew nothing of the Plot to discover for he would have got money by it as I understood as well as others Mr. Turbervill My Lords Mr. Yalden did declare yesterday he was summoned in by my Lord Stafford the last night and that he had nothing to say but what was by Hear say Mr. Yalden My Lords I do declare what I say is true and yesterday Mr. Powell gave me a Caution to take heed what I did and swore by God it would else be the worse for me L. H. Steward Who did Yalden Mr. Powell L. H. Steward Who is that Yalden Mr. Turbervill's Friend And I said I do not appear here as a voluntary Evidence but by an Order of the House of Lords I do not know what weight my Evidence may have for I can say nothing but what I heard him say and so perhaps it will be taken but for an Hear-say Mr. Turbervill You said you knew nothing but by Hear-say L. H. Stew. Will you ask him any Questions Gentlemen Managers No my Lords L. Stafford My Lords I shall not trouble your Lordships with any more Witnesses as to these Points I have here a Copy of the Warrant for the Yaught to go to Diep and if there be any Question whether I did come over from Diep at Christmas 75. if you please the Book may be searched L. H. Stew. My Lord it is all lost for I hear not one word L. Stafford I say my Lords if it be fit to trouble your Lordships with it I can prove that I did come over in the Yaught from Diep at Christmas 75. Here is the Copy of the Warrant for it to go for me And whether you will have it proved that I did come over thence I submit to you L. H. Steward I suppose that is fully proved already that you did come by Diep Managers We do not deny it L. H. Stew. You do not stand upon it Gentlemen do you Managers No no my Lords L. H. Stew. 'T is admitted to you my Lord. L. Stafford My Lords when I went from your Lordships Bar last night I had no thoughts of examining any Witnesss but what I have already done But my Lords since I was here there hath something happened about which I desire Dr. Oats may be called again I shall give you the reason why I move it afterwards upon something I heard yesternight L. H. Stew. Call Dr. Oats again Who appeared and stood up L. H. Steward My Lord what does your Lordship call him for L. Stafford He did say that he being a Minister of the Church of England did seemingly go over to the Church of Rome or some such words I desire he may answer that first L. H. Steward What say you Dr. Oats Yes I did say I did but seemingly go over L. Stafford I desire to know whether he was really a Papist or did but pretend Dr. Oats I did only pretend I was not really one I declare it L. H. Stew. What do you make of that L. Stafford I desire to know how long Dr. Oats was in Spain Dr. Oats My Lords I came into Spain in May and I came home again in November L. H. Steward That is six months L. Stafford He is called Dr. Oats I beseech your Lordships to ask him whether he were a Doctor made at the Universities here or abroad Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please any matter that is before your Lordships I will answer to it but I hope your Lordships will not call me to account for all the Actions of my life whatever Evidence is before your Lordships I will justifie L. H. Stew. The Doctor hath never taken it upon his Oath that he was a Doctor and why do you ask it L. Stafford He is called a Doctor and I would know whether he did never declare upon his Oath that he took the Degree at Salamanca Dr. Oats My Lords I am not ashamed of any thing I
have said or done I own what is entred as my Oath before your Lordships and am ready to answer it but I am not bound to say what does not at all concern this business L. Stafford I say my Lords 't is entred upon your Lordships Books that he did swear at the Council he was at Madrid with Don John of Austria I would know of him whether he did so Dr. Oats My Lords I would have my Lord to propose the Question to the Court of Peers L. H. Steward Have you sworn any thing of Don John of Austria Dr. Oats My Lords I refer my self to the Council Book L. Stafford I beseech your Lordships I may have that Book L. H. Steward I believe it is in the Narrative turn to the Journal you have that mentioned there To which the Clerk turned but it could not be sound L. H. Stew. If you will not acknwledge it we must stay till the Book be brought Dr. Oats My Lords if your Lordships please I will repeat as well as I can what was said at the Council Table but I had rather the Council Book were fetched because I am upon my Oath but my Lords I always thought the Council Book is no Record upon any man L. Stafford I desire it may be produced or he own that he said so Lord High Steward What you said at the Council Table you said upon your Oath and 't is lawful to lay it before you Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please as to what was said at the Council Table if my Lord will bring any one Viva voce to swear what was said by me there that will make something L. H. Stew. That may be material as he says That your Lordship should bring some body to swear he said so for the Clerks may mistake him L. Stafford If your Lordships please that the Book may be sent for I will make it out Sir W. Jones It could not be read if it were here L. H. Stew. If the Clerks will swear what is in the Books it may Sir W. Jones But whether the Clerks will take that upon them or no may be Question Lord. High Steward Go on in the mean time L. Stafford I cannot conclude with him without it L. H. Stew. Where is the Council Book For the Clerks inform me 't is not in their custody but the Gentlemen of the House of Commons have been attended with the Book and other Papers relating to it L. Stafford In the mean time give me leave to say something though perhaps it may be nothing to the purpose Mr. Yalden was just now going down ' and Turbervill threatned to lay him by the Heels L. H. Stew. If he did so 't is a Misdemeanor and he must be punished for it Call Yalden and Turbervill L. H. Stew. Mr. Turbervill Have you dared or threatned Yalden the Witness to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill I did not speak any such words to him Mr. Dugdale was just by me all the while L. Stafford I tell you but what he said and what I can prove by Witness pray call Yalden Mr. Turbervill This Gentleman Captain Scudamore stood by me too L. H. Stew. But I ask you upon this Misdemeanor Whether you threatned Yalden to lay him by the Heels Mr. Turbervill My Lords I stood by Mr. Dugdale till he was gone down L. H. Stew. How could he lay him by the Heels By what Authority could he do it Mr. Turbervill I did not speak such a word upon my Oath L. Stafford Ask Yalden I am told he did L. H. Stew. I am afraid you are misinformed my Lord for he could not do it 't is not in his power L. Stafford He threatned he would Goal him but if you won't Examine it I submit to you Dr. Oats My Lords Yalden it seems calls us a Pack of Rogues that give Evidence for the King and here are Witnesses of it Yalden stood up L. H. Stew. Yalden were you threatned by Turbervill Yalden Yes I will tell you how I was threatned my Lords Mr. Turbervill pulls me by the Arm when I had given my Evidence and asked me if I knew him and bid me take care L. H. Stew. Do you call that a threatning Yalden My Lords I did not make this Complaint nor did I desire it should be made but speaking this in the Room some body carried it to my Lord. Mr. Turbervill My Lords now he hath done let me speak I pray Mr. Yalden did say in the hearing of Captain Scudamore who is here he had got a great many Clients here but you says he have got nothing but a pack of Rogues Yalden That is a mistake L. H. Stew. This is fine work But Gentlemen will you call Captain Scudamore now or will you stay till afterwards Sir Fr. Winn. My Lords Mr. Turbervill desires it may be now and we do also desire it upon this occasion Captain Scudamore is a man of Quality and will give you a true account We did not think to have interposed in my Lord Stafford's Evidence but he having impeached our Witnesses of a Misdemeanor we conceive it fittest to clear it at this time Then Captain Scudamore was sworn L. H. Stew. Mr. Scudamore what are you called for Can you say any thing that happened between Turbervill and Yalden Captain Scudamore The Gentleman that is here that said he was one of Grays-Inn I do not know his Name L. H. Stew. 'T is Yalden Captain Scudamore I heard a Gentleman ask him if he came there to get Clients And he said I know nothing among you but Roguery L. Stafford Whereabouts did this Gentleman stand Captain Scudamore In the Passage Mr. Turbervill Here are five or six more that heard him say so Yalden That which I said was this That I might come hither for Practice but I did not come hither for Roguery L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford until such time as the Council-Book comes which may be sent for Will your Lordship proceed to something else L. Wharton My Lord Steward I humbly conceive That it was resolved in the Lords House the day before yesterday that no Book should be sent for out of the Court and it was done upon the Judgment of all the Judges of England Yalden My Lords They will not permit me to go down L. H. Stew. There is a strange Quarrel between you Witnesses and an Affectation of complaining one of another Let Mr. Yalden go down Sir W. Jones My Lords I would only acquaint your Lordships that the Council-Book that my Lord does make mention of was in the hands of our Clerk we did not know of it when it was first discoursed of but now understanding that here it is we desire it may be delivered in to any body that hath occasion for it L. H. Stew. Hand it in Which was done L. H. Stew. What day does your Lordship speak of L. Stafford The 28 29 or 30. of September Clerk Then this is not the Book
as for Dr. Perrot I never was at his Lodgings in my life and I never knew where he lay he hath been with me sometimes but I knew not that he was a Doctor But my Lords I desire I may not be ran down by these Fellows who do not speak a word true nor one tittle My Lords I have Witnesses in whose House Fenwick lay Call them and ask them if ever they knew me in their lives L. H. Stew. What kind of man was he Dr. Oats My Lords he is an ancient man he wears his own Hair L. H. Steward Is he a tall man or a low man Dr. Oats A lusty man L. Stafford Truly my Lords I never was at his house since I was born Dr. Oats My Lords I 'll tell your Lordships a Circumstance That Summer Don Francisco de Melos the Ambassador here was sick and I think he died of the Sickness Dr. Perrot was his Father Confessor I was waiting for Dr. Perrot some time for he promised to meet me at his Lodgings and this Gentleman the Prisoner at the Bar did come in there L. Staffo rd Where Dr. Oats Into Dr. Perrot's Lodging Dr. Perrot had a Kinsman there that waited on him and when my Lord came in he was in haste to speak with Dr. Perrot and he offered me half a Crown to fetch Dr. Perrot to him and I made him this Reply I was no Porter L. Stafford If ever I saw this man in my life since I was born or heard of his Name till the Plot then I will confess my self guilty of all Indeed when first I heard of the Plot they said there was one Mr. Oats discovered it but I did not know any such man Dr. Oats I went by another Name and went in another Habit and my Lord Stafford though his memory be bad yet it can't be so bad but that he must remember something of me L. Stafford I don't remember you I never saw your face in my life L. H. Steward You would have given him half a Crown to have fetch'd Dr. Perrot L. Stafford It seems then at that time I took him for a poor Fellow that I should offer him a shilling or two Dr. Oats It is like I was but I refused your half Crown and told you I was no Porter L. Stafford My Lords I shall give you Evidence that he was a poor Fellow since he gives me occasion to prove it nay that he was so poor that he was brought down to accept of 6 d. I will prove it by the party that gave it now he puts me upon it But my Lords this Doctor Oats says he saw some of my Letters I desire to know what was in them Did he take any Notes What was in them L. H. Stew. Did you when you had a sight of these Letters at St. Omers take any Notes out of them Dr. Oats What Notes I did take if I did take any I have not now in being but I do not remember that I did take any Besides my Lords we could keep no Papers by us but what we communicated to our Superiours and therefore it was still their care to look after their Papers themselves and in that Circumstance of time if they had known I had taken Notes out of their Papers it would have been prejudicial to me and indangered my life L. Stafford My Lords I infer this one thing further upon what this Doctor Oats tells you He did seemingly profess himself of the Catholick Religion and I do stand upon it that hereupon he is no competent Witness in that which he offers against me For he being of the Church of England for I think he professes himself so and wears that Habit I say any man let him be who he will in the world Church of England man or other that shall pretend himself to be a Papist for what end soever it be that he so pretends and dissembles with God Almighty which he must do to a great height in receiving that Sacrament which is by your Lordships and the House of Commons declared to be gross Idolatry is not easily to be esteemed a Witness I appeal to your Lordships to the House of Commons and every body whether such a Fellow that will abhor his Religion let him do it for any ends in the world be a man to be credited and especially ingaging in such a way to such an height in that which his Conscience tells him is idolatrous is not a perjured Fellow and no compleat Witness No Christian but a Devil and a Witness for the Devil And I appeal to the whole Christian World if a Protestant of the Church of England should come to be a Servant to a Catholick and pretend himself a Papist and were not so whether he were fit to be countenanced as it did once happen to me at Brussels fore the King came in one that was a Protestant came to be my Footman and he professed himself afterwards to be a Catholick and when I found he was not so I told him what a Villain he was and he ought to be punished severely I detest such dissembling with God and I think by the Laws of God and Man and the Holy Scriptures such a perjured man is no Witness I am sorry I have troubled your Lordships so long But now if you please to give me leave my Lords I will give you my Reasons why I called him now when I did remember how he had dissembled with God Almighty as I said before I did consider with my self sure this Dr. Oats must have been ever since he hath returned of a very severe strict and sober life for a man that hath so dissembled with God ought to shew himself of an exemplary peaceful pious civil life to testifie the truth and reality of his Repentance But last night when I came home and was siting by the fire side extreamly weary my Daughter here comes in and asks me if I had heard what had passed between Dr. Oats and the Lieutenant how he called the Lieutenant Rascal and Goaler sure then said I to my self this is not the quiet civil sober man that such a one that hath lived as he hath done ought to be And this is the reason I speak of it that he should call him vile Names Goaler and Rascal it did not become a man of his Coat to do it whether it was so or no I do not know but Mr. Lieutenant I suppose will satisfie your Lordships L. H. Steward What did Oats say to you Mr. Lieutenant Mr. Lieuten My Lords I was desiring Mr. Oats that he would keep the people down because there was a great croud and seeing a great many people come in he told me they were Witnesses that were to come in said I I believe half of these are not Witnesses and the door opening so often I could keep this place in no order so I desired they would stand away that were not Witnesses why says he you are but a
Sir you need not question his Majesties Gracious Promise my Life for yours if you have not his Pardon but I will take special care about it for I will send up a Letter to London directed to some of the Lords which I accordingly did and I will also speak to Captain Lane who is a worthy Gentleman to interpose in it too Then said he I will make a discovery of the Plot. Then my Lords he told me first some particular passages relating to this Lord at the Bar and also concerning Mr. Evers and Mr Peters now in Custody and some other particulars I wished him that he would speak no more at that time And when I parted with him forthwith I consulted with my self what I ought to do in point of Law I knew I must discover that a further discovery might be made of what had passed between us Then I went to Mr. Freek who was either Mayor or Justice of Peace in Stafford and told him he must come with me to Serjeant Parry's He asked me what to do I told him when he came he should know he accordingly came and took short Notes of a further Discovery and Mr. Freek he certified it up to Mr. Chetwyn who was then at London Upon the day following the 24 th I rose and went to one Mr. Vernon one of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and told him what had happened and he sent for Captain Lane another of His Majesties Justices of the Peace and they took an Examination of him I have done my Lord with reference to his Discovery and the time L. H. Steward Do you remember what he mentioned of my Lord Stafford what he said of him Mr. Southall Truly my Lords I can only tell what he said at the first Examination he told me the first time my Lord Stafford spoke with him was at Tixal-Hall nigh to the Gate-House betwixt the Gate and the Hall My Lord was going into the Hall and my Lord Stafford told him it was a very hard thing or to that purpose that they could not say their Prayes but in private and after told him the same day or night t'one that they had some work to do and he might or must be instrumental in it This was the effect of what he told me passed the first time Another time I think he told me he was to have five hundred pounds to kill the King Lord High Steward When did he tell you so Mr. Southall Not till Captain Lane examined him which was the second time he was examined which was about the 26 th L. H. Stew. Did he swear that before Vernon and Lane Mr. Southall Yes he did I could give your Lordships a Breviate of what he swore then L. Stafford I desire he may give that Breviate Mr. Southall I took some Notes of what he swore then L. H. Stew. Have you them by you or about you Mr. Southall Yes my Lords I have L. H. Stew. Produce them Mr. Southall I took this upon some Paper I had in my Pocket and is the substance of what he swore Which he delivered to the Clerk Clerke December the 24th 1678. Mr. Dugdale informeth That in September last he met in Tixall the Lord Stafford nigh to the Gates who said That it was sad they were troubled they could not say their Prayers but in a hid manner but suddenly there would be a Reformation to the Romish Religion and if there be a good success we shall enjoy our freedom And that upon the 20th day of September 1678. the said Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design in hand and if he would undertake in it he should have a good Reward c. and make himself famous The same day this Informant went up into Mr. Francis Evers Chamber to know what my Lord Stafford meant by his words and he first made him swear secresie upon his knees and then told him That he might be a person employed and have a good Reward and make himself famous if he would stand instrumental with others in taking aatay the Kings Life by Shooting or otherwise and need not fear for that the Pope had Excommunicated the King and that all that were Excommunicated by him were Hereticks and they might Kill them and be Canonized for Saints in so doing And that the Design was as well to Kill the Duke of Monmouth as well as the King December the 29th 1678. This Informant saith That since the 20th day of September last the said Lord Stafford did promise him Five Hundred Pounds as to the carrying on of the Plot and that Mr. Evers should give him instructions about the same And that the Lord Stafford told him he did not doubt of his fidelity for Mr. Evers had given him a good character to be trusty And that the Lord Stafford told this Informant That there was a Design to take away the Life of the King and the Life of the Duke of Monmouth and that several others were to be imployed in the Design besides this Informant And that this had been throughly considered of to be the fittest way for the establishing of the Romish Religion And that at the said time the said Lord Stafford laid his hand upon his head and prayed God to keep him in his good mind and to be faithful to what he had intrusted him in c. And this Informant further saith That he doubting of the Lord Stafford's payment the said Mr. Evers promised him the making good of my Lord Stafford's promise c. And further saith that he saw a Letter directed from my Lord Stafford to Mr. Evers and he read the same and knows it to be my Lord Stafford's writing and that therein was written that things went on well beyond the Sâ—as for the carrying on the Design and so he hoped it did do here in England c. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we will examine no further as to Mr. Dugdale But will conclude with this Witness and I think he speaks fully to him The next Witness we called was Dr. Oats and your Lordships have been pleased to observe That what Exceptions have been made against him have not been so much by Witnesses produced as by opposing one part of his Testimony to another what he swore at one time to what he swore at another to which we shall give an Answer when we come to sum up our Evidence for there will be no need of Witnesses to what is objected against Mr. Oats but only of Observations but as to the third Witness Turbervill we have something to answer of Witness and someâ—â—ing by way of making Observation We will first call our Witnesses Then Mr. Southall desired his Paper again which the Court told him he should have a Copy of from the Clerk Sir W. Jones And our first Witness is to this purpose It was objected against Mr. Turbervill L. H. Steward Have you done with Dugdale You have forgot to give an Answer to the objection
good Proof of his being a Papist Besides Dugdale swears my Lord did then complain That they had not the free Exercise of their Religion that they could not say their Prayers openly What were they Not the Prayers of Protestants not those contained in the Liturgy of our Church He could not complain of any restraint as to them but complain he did that they had not the free Exercise of their Religion but he did hope if things succeeded well in a short time it would be otherwise This is particularly sworn by Dugdale My Lords His Lordship was very much unsatisfied That Dugdale was not particular in point of time he did talk of some matters to be in August or September but could not fix to any day But your Lordships will remember that as to one particular and which mainly concerns his Lordship to answer he comes to a day or within a day for he swears positively That upon the 20. or 21. of September he was sent for to my Lords Chamber the Servants were put out that there my Lord did propose to him in express terms the matter of Killing of the King He would have him be an Actor in it and he offered him a Reward of 500 l. to perform it For this which is the most material part of his particular Evidence against my Lord he is certain 't was either on the 20. or 21. of September and he tells your Lordships how he comes to remember the time by a good Token by the Foot-Race that was then to be run and I do not perceive that my Lord does deny but rather acknowledge that Dugdale was in his Chamber at that time 'T is true he does deny some other Circumstances which I shall answer anon And here I do think Dugdale undertakes to swear to that which will amount to an Overt Act and a damnable one too that is the offering 500 l. to kill the King But Dugdale it seems was not willing to depend upon the promises of my Lord for so much money his Lordship had not that credit with him he repairs to Evers and desires to be satisfied from him whether he might rely upon my Lord for so much Money Evers told him he might be sure to have the Money and that there was enough in Harcourts and other mens hands for the carrying on that blessed design and that he should have it thence I might my Lords remember to your Lordships how Dugdale does particularly swear concerning another discourse he had afterwards with my Lord. That my Lord complained of the great losses that had been sustained by him and his friends for the King how in particular my Lord Aston's Father had lost 30000 l. and what resentments my Lord had of it he said that places of profit were rather bestowed upon those that disserted the King and were Rebels and Traytors than on those that did him faithful Service and what does he conclude from thence He is very angry with the King and does say that next to the Cause of Religion which was the strongest motive with him to take away the Kings Life the Kings ingratitude to his Loyal Subjects was that which did most offend him I shall not trouble your Lordships with other particular matters which were to serve as incouragements to the Design as that there was to be a Pardon from the Pope that my Lord did write a Letter to Evers which was shewn to Dugdale wherein he says That things did succeed very well abroad and he hoped they would do so at home I shall only observe that Dugdales Evidence as to my Lords damnable Design of killing the King is positive and full And if this be to be believed as I hope we shall shew there is no reason but it should be then here surely is one sufficient Witness to prove my Lord guilty of the Highest Treason My Lords The next Witness we called for against my Lord was Dr. Oats and I think Dr. Oats is not only positive but he is positive in that which most certainly will amount to an Overt Act nay I think to more Overt Acts than one The Doctor tells your Lordships That having been at St. Omers and in Spain he saw several Letters that were subscribed Stafford he did not then know my Lords Hand but he saw the Letters and he tells you the effect of those Letters And I remember in one of them there is this Expression That my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar does give Assurance to the Fathers that he is very zealous and ready to do them service Doctor Oats tells you my Lords That afterwards coming into England my Lord Stafford did write a Letter I think it was to his Son but sure I am the Doctor said he had the carriage of it to the Post-house that he saw my Lord write it he read the superscription and he swears that the Hand which writ that Letter was the Hand which subscribed to all the former And so then joyning the one to the other it amounts to as good an Evidence as if he had known my Lords Hand from the beginning But that which comes home to my Lord is that which Doctor Oats saw and that which Doctor Oats heard and they are these particulars which I now mention First he saw a Commission directed to my Lord to be Pay-master of the Army he saw it delivered to my Lords own Hand and my Lord accepted it Doctor Oats read the Commission and he tells you by whom it was signed Johannes Paulus Oliva a person substituted by the Pope to issue out Commissions he tells you the Contents of it and of this he swears he was an Ocular Witness He tells you of another Matter he heard my Lord say as considerable as the other That when my Lord had received the Commission my Lord declared that he was to go down into Staffordshire and Lancashire where he was to put things in readiness What were those things He had now a Commission by vertue of which in Lancashire and the other places hâ— was to prepare and gather Monies for that Army which he was to pay So much Doctor Oats doth swear he heard from my Lords own mouth But there is one thing further which I had almost forgot He doth swear that my Lord was privy to and approved of the Matter of killing of the King For he doth swear he did hear my Lord say at that time He hoped before he returned Honest William who was Grove that was executed for this Attempt would have done the business And what that business was every man who hath heard of Groves Treason must needs understand There is but one thing more that I remember of Doctor Oats his Testimony Your Lordships that have a better advantage to write than we who are crowded together may have taken Notes of more but this one thing I do observe Doctor Oats doth expresly swear that my Lord bore a very ill mind towards his Majesty for my Lord did in
his hearing complain That the King had deceived them a great while and that they would bear with him no longer he should deceive them no more My Lords Our third Witness was Mr. Turbervill who doth give you an account that he being first sent to Doway and intended to be entred there in one of the Societies he was sent by my Lord Powis and my Lady Powis and some of his Relations of that Religion for that purpose he did not like the Company he was not pleased with the Exercises of that Religion and that with much difficulty he escaped thence and came for England But finding he was not well look'd upon here nor well received by his Relations he went over to France That being at Paris he came into the company of the three Fathers I named before Father Sherborn Father Nelson and Father Turbervill the last whereof he tells you was his own Brother That by the means of these Priests he was brought acquainted with my Lord Stafford and doubtless they were able to make him intimately acquainted with my Lord. And it did prove so for he tells you after some time that in a lower Room of my Lords Lodging my Lord proposed to him the business of killing the King That he did not at all like it was very unwilling to undertake it but my Lord bid him consider of it and that he should give him his Answer at Diep having enjoyned him secrecy but my Lord after sent him word he would go by Calice and the Witness afterwards went into England and from thence into the French Army And this is the substance of what Turbervill deposeth And my Lords I think it will not be doubted by any man that will consider these three mens Testimonies but that here are two Witnesses if not more to prove my Lord Guilty of Treason But my Lord has been pleased against them to make several Objections some have been by Witnesses which he hath produced to incounter the Proofs that we have offered and some of them have been by Observations that he hath made upon what hath been said by our Witnesses and his I will keep to Order as much as I can not confound the Order and Method of his Defence The Witnesses he first brought were against Dugdale and of them his Lordship was pleased to begin with his Daughter the Lady Marchioness of Winchester and his Niece Mrs. Howard Your Lordships I presume are pleased to observe what they were called to They did testifie that being at Wakeman's Tryal they did hear Dugdale swear says my Lady Marchioness of Winchester that my Lord Stafford was to come down into Staffordshire in June or July and Mr. Dugdale was then to receive Orders from my Lord and he swore as she was pleased to say that there was a Consult in August at Tixall and my Lord Stafford was there present Mrs. Howard for I put them together was pleased to say that she was present at that Tryal and there Dugdale swore my Lord Stafford did come down in June or July and that my Lord was at the Consult in August My Lords I will not make Objections neither to the Religion of these Ladies nor to the Relation to my Lord though those be matters that are to be considered But that which I shall observe to your Lordships is this That they do not agree one with another For my Lady Winchester says Dugdale did swear that my Lord was to come down in June or July and Mrs. Howard says that he swore he did come down then Now there is a great difference betwixt swearing an intention that a man was to come down and swearing the very Act that he did come down at that time By which your Lordships may observe how hard a matter it is for Witnesses that are present at a Tryal especially at a Tryal which did not directly though it might in consequence concern another Person of their Relation to take notice exactly of things And truly my Lords these Ladies being of that Religion might have so much concern upon them for Sir George Wakeman the Popish Physician and in him for other their friends of that party that they might not have so much liberty of thought as to observe exactly all circumstances sworn to by the Witnesses and therefore it is no great matter if they are mistaken in them But I believe if any one do consult the Print though it be no Evidence nor offer'd as such he will find no such thing was at that time sworn for it is not so printed and those that took notes did not understand it so My Lords The next Witness my Lord is pleased to bring is his Servant Furnese and what is it that he testifieth He saith that he was with my Lord the whole time that Dugdale was in my Lords Chamber and he doth not remember that ever Dugdale was there but once and he doth not remember that ever my Lord bid him go out of the Room My Lords it is a very hard matter for a man to come thus in the Negative to remember how often Dugdale was there especially there being no more occasion to take notice of it then than here appears to be and that after so long a time And it is a very hard matter for a Servant to gain Credit by saying his Master never bid him go out of the Room in his life These things may be done or said and yet escape the memory of a Servant of more Age and of less inclination to favour his Master then this person appears to be of and to have Therefore I think there will be but a very small matter made of what he said no force at all in it and I believe your Lordships will give very little regard to it but rather believe those Witnesses that swear positively that they have seen him with my Lord and speak to a familiarity at that time between them This young man Furnese was my Lords Servant and of his Religion and it is considerable whether we have not reason to be afraid that more than ordinary Practice has been used to prepare Evidence on my Lords behalf which I shall have occasion to speak to when I come to the other Witnesses His next Witness my Lords was his Boy George Leigh who is Fifteen years of Age now and was Eight years old when he came to my Lord Seven years ago And he attests the same thing and to the same purpose with the other And I think I may leave him with the same Answer for we are nothing more concerned with him than we were with the other Only one thing I would observe to shew that his Memory was imperfect he doth not remember that Dugdale was with my Lord at all that day which my Lord himself doth acknowledge he was and the other Witness agrees So that there cannot be any great weight laid upon what he saith My Lords next Witness was Thomas Sawyer and he is one of my
make an Assault upon him and would have killed him for being ready to appear against my Lord Aston at his intended Tryal So that he is a man that has more Zeal than Honesty Zeal in no good matter namely to hinder the Truth from coming out against my Lord Aston and therefore we have little reason to wonder Nay all the reason in the world to believe that he says that which is untrue about Mr. Dugdale My Lords There was another Witness Mr. Lydcott that said he was a Fellow of King's Colledge in Cambridge He has offered no proofs that he was so and truly it is very improbable he should be so For I hope Fellowships in the University especially in one of the chief Colledges as this is are bestowed upon more deserving and less suspitious Persons than he appears to be A Man that owns himself the continual Companion and Secretary of one so famous in the Popish Party as my Lord Castlemain is A Man that pretends he was never out of his Company and a man that owns that two years since he was taking of Notes at a Tryal for this Plot not only for his own curiosity but for the service of his Lord who was concerned in the Accusation That this Man should be a Fellow of King's Colledge seems strange and till it be better proved will hardly be believed nor will he deserve any Credit It is true he doth acknowledge himself a Protestant and to be of the Church of England and educated as he says a Presbyterian but when he was asked when he received the Sacrament last I do not remember that he gave your Lordships any Answer This Witness says that he was at the Tryal of the Five Jesuites and there Dugdale did swear that he gave notice to Mr. Philips and Mr. Sambidge of Sir Edmundbury Godfrey's Death And this they would make to be a great Fault in Dugdale because neither Philips nor Sambidge remember it Now whether Dugdale swore true in that or no does not depend upon Dugdale's own Credit alone but you have heard other Witnesses have made it appear that he did swear true So that we need not say any thing more to this Witness nor to Gifford who testifies to the same purpose because that point as to the report of the death of the Justice of Peace is by other Witnesses clearly proved And as for Mr. Sambidge I do not wonder much that he should say he did not hear it because he could hardly hear what was said to him by the Court or any of the Officers set near him on purpose But My Lords I desire your Lordships to take notice that he was a very angry Witness he said he had formerly had a Controversie with Dugdale that Dugdale had cited him into Litchfield Court and had there a Suit against him for Defamation and he said that against Dugdale which unless better proved must needs make Sambidge much suspected He said that Dugdale was the wickedest Man on Earth but what proof he offer'd of that or whether he did instance in any one particular I leave it to your Lordships Memories My Lords There is another Proof relating to Mr. Dugdale not out of the mouth of a Witness but out of a Paper which I desire to give an Answer to It was an Objection the Prisoner at the Bar was pleased to make to Dugdale's Information taken the 24. of December 1678. before the Justices in the Countrey wherein he had said to this purpose Presently after one Howard Almoner to the Queen went over he was told by George Hobson that there was a Design c. This saith my Lord is most impossible to be true For you say that immediately after the Almoner was gone away Hobson told you this whereas Hobson went away with the Almoner and he came not to live with my Lord Aston till many years afterwards This my Lord is pleased to offer as a falsification of Dugdale's Testimony but my Lords I do desire to observe that this is an Information taken before two Justices of Peace in the Country and if you look upon it you will see it was written by a Country Clerk and not very skilfully done ' Tâ—s rather short Notes of an Examination than a compleat Examination And your Lordships will please likewise to observe that this is not really an Expression that is clear one way or th' other but capable of two Senses that is to say either it may import Hobson told him there was a Design ever since the Almoner Howard went away or it may import Hobson told him presently after the Almoner went away that there was a Design Read but the words with a different Comma and it makes the Sense one way or t'other Now it is plain Dugdale could not intend that Hobson told him so as soon as the Almoner went away because Hobson went away with the Almoner And it was better to his purpose that Hobson should tell him so after his return than before for that shews the Design had been long a carrying on Therefore it being a doubtful Expression that may refer either to the Time he told it to him or to the Matter he told him of and being taken in the latter Sense the Objection faileth I think this Matter can have no weight at all in it to falsifie a positive Testimony My Lords the next Witness we did call and which was objected against by my Lord was Dr. Oats and truly I must observe that his Lordship was not pleased to call any one Witness materially to falsifie Dr. Oats his Testimony and I must likewise observe that Dr. Oats is in the material part of his Evidence supported by other Evidence When Dr. Oats gave Evidence at former Tryals it was the common Discourse of the men of that Religion that Dr. Oats had never been in Spain nor had ever any Credit with the Priests or Jesuits but was a mean contemptible person and that all he said was improbable But now your Lordships have heard that Dr. Oats even by the Testimony of Dennis a Popish Priest that is so to this day was in Spain was according to what he saith brought up in the Colledge of the Jesuits that he was in such esteem there that the Archbishop of Tuam commended him very much in the presence of Dennis and spoke of what expectation there was of him So that Dennis the Priest doth support Dr. Oats in some parts of his Evidence I do not speak of that part of it which concerns this particular Lord but of his Testimony touching the general Plot. There is another thing wherein Dr. Oats is supported by another Witness and that is the Esteem and Intimacy he had with the Jesuits For Mr. Jenison swears that Dr. Oats was a man in esteem among them that he was at Ireland's Chamber and had discourse with Ireland and did appear to be frequently imployed by them And I take these two Witnesses to be a great support to Dr.
is manifestly untrue For he says my Lord came by the way of Calice with Count Gramont neither of which my Lord did do My Lords I will not mention the Master of the Yacht nor the Witnesses from the Admiralty which make out that my Lord came from Diep and not from Calice Nor do I deny that my Lord came by himself and not with Count Gramont and therefore 't is most certainly true that what Turbervill swore as to those two particulars was not true Yet if your Lordships please to observe the Circumstances tho' what he swore herein was not true it will appear a very innocent mistake For in Turbervill's Affidavit he tells your Lordships that he came away without my Lord to Diep and came from Diep to England before my Lord Stafford left Paris Mr. Turbervill tells you afterwards my Lord came from Calice with Count Gramont Mr. Turbervill could not possibly be thought to speak this of his own knowledge because he does in the same Affidavit tell you too that he came away before my Lord and had not his passage with him So that my Lords I desire you would observe it could be no design of his to affirm this of his own knowledge For if it were he took a very ill course to disclose in the same Affidavit that he was absent and so could not speak of his own knowledge And my Lords suppose a man did swear such a man and he were in such company and that he came home and left the man there and that afterwards the man said such and such things in that company what should I say of this Oath I might well say the words of his Oath were not proper or that he was unweary in expressing himself but I could not say nor would any man justly be able to say he had a design to make the World believe he heard him say so because he swears in the same breath he came away before the Words were spoken If Mr. Turbervill had understood how strict and nice a man ought to be in expressing himself in an Affidavit he would have said as he had been told my Lord â—ame by Calice and that Count Gramont came with him as he understood 'T is true he hath not put in those words but I beseech you when the matter it self will bear it nay when 't is most apparent that Mr. Turbervill could have no other meaning than to relate what he was informed by others and what he could not know himself what corruption what obliquity can there be in this Oath All that can be said is it was not cautiously worded but it does certainly disclose so much in it self that every one that hears it must say That he did not take upon himself to swear it as of his own knowledge because he tells you he was not there so that it was rather want of knowledge how to express himself properly than any corruption in his Oath or forswearing himself But says my Lord how should he come to know this Why Mr. Turbervill said he had a Letter whereby he knew my Lord would come by the way of Calice but where is that Letter Is it necessary to keep or does any man almost keep Letters of no greater concernment than this that my Lord writ him word how he would go by the way of Calice and this after five years and after he was in the Wars and where I have heard he was taken Prisoner To be sure he was much tumbled up and down from place to place And under all these Circumstances might not such a Letter be lost But my Lords I beseech you are there not some Proofs that look much this way made out by another Witness Does not Mr. Mort tell you something of this Nature First he agrees as to the matter of an English Lord lying about such a Street in Paris he tells you he was with Mr. Turbervill and that he himself walked about Laxenburgh House whilst Mr. Turbervill went to speak with that English Lord he does say he believes his Name was my Lord Stafford but he is not positive and the times which he speaks of do agree with what Mr. Turbervill deposeth And there is one thing which tho' I should not mention upon any other occasion because it was but a foolish Joke yet I shall crave leave to speak of it now He tells you That one day while they were at Diep in expectation of my Lords coming and hearing that he went another way they had this piece of minute Wit upon it Cursed is he that relies upon a broken Staff whereby he thinks was meant the Name of Stafford So then â— beseech you if Mort say true are not here footsteps and a foundation whereon to ground a belief That there was a Correspondence between Turbervill and my Lord and that Mr. Turbervill had an Information that my Lord would come by the way of Calice And one thing more Mort says that Turbervill told him if he would make haste to Calice he might go over with my Lord. And here I would observe how should Mr. Turbervill come to know that my Lord went that way and how should he tell Mort that he might go over with my Lord from Calice unless he had receiv'd some such Information Therefore my Lords taking into Consideration what is confirmed by Mort and taking into Consideration the whole scope of the Affidavit I cannot see that there can be any material Objection against Mr. Turbervill for saying That my Lord came by Calice in the Company of Count Gramont My Lords I have done now with the Witnesses and I told you as I went along because I would not trouble you with a double Repetition what Evidence we have given in contradiction to those Witnesses which my Lord hath brought in order to defame our Witnesses But my Lords I am to acquaint you That besides these particular Answers your Lordships have had men of very great Credit brought to testifie the Reputation of Mr. Dugdale and Mr. Turbervill As to Mr. Dugdale we have brought men that have known him a great while one hath sworn what Opinion even my Lord Aston himself had of him for it seems he lived with so much Credit there that he would not believe any ill of him You have heard from other Witnesses how he did behave himself It was objected sometimes Tradesmen were not paid but what then can a man pay without Money I believe there are some Lords here whose Stewards are very honest men and yet the Tradesmen such Lords deal with are not always readily paid He was as you observe believed to be in the Plot and my Lord's Servants say he seemed much troubled about it he went away upon that Account and was so much concerned that he burnt his Papers which I make use of for two Purposes The one to shew that he did apprehend he was in great danger the other to shew what was the Reason why the
of those Letters shew me the Letter you carried to the Post-house My Lords were those Letters written to Dr. Oats Did they belong to him Or is it possible that my Lords Letter delivered by the Doctor to the Post-house should now be shewn by the Doctor or that the Letters writ to the Superior of the Society of the Jesuits should be produced by one that was a Novice of that Society Does Dr. Oats talk of any one Letter written to himself You will then I suppose see no reason to expect those Letters should be produced by him that were not written to him and the custody whereof belonged to others My Lords I must observe to You that there have been great Endeavours used to Invalidate our Testimony we have had Witnesses called against Witnesses and my Lord hath had that Advantage to do it which perhaps was never given in any Case before and which I hope will never be again The Evidence hath been Printed and Published to the World before it hath been given I say not that it was not necessary in this Case which was a National Cause and the Cause of our Religion but I do say it would not be fit to be done in other Cases for the notifying of the Evidence is the way to have it falsified and corrupted But notwithstanding all these Advantages my Lords I appeal to your Lordships Memories what considerable contradiction hath been given It is true some Witnesses to that end have been brought before your Lordships but those Witnesses have been rendred incredible by more credible persons and I would desire your Lordships to observe That tho' my Lord hath failed of proving any Subornation in our Witnesses yet we have proved much Subornation endeavoured by his Agents Your Lordships have the Record against Redding before you and what Reference that hath to the Lords in the Tower every one does remember and my Lord is mentioned in that Record And I might likewise mention the business of Cellier and what therein related to the Lords in the Tower and I 'le name but two Witnesses more that have been attempted upon this Nature There was Wright the Barber all the Applications were made to him that could be Money given Letters writ Insinuations that he was not to Swear he was but to Write and that was easily done or if he would be so kind to Swear it he should never come into open Court only go before a Justice of Peace So that your Lordships will observe by what steps and degrees men were endeavoured to be Suborned And then Launder tells you what was offered to him to perjure himself how he was brought to Tixall and what endeavours were used to make him Swear against our Witnesses These things are plain both by Records and particular Proofs upon Oath But my Lords lest we should want proof of all This very Lord I pity him for it hath been so unfortunate as to bring that Paper out of his Pocket which Wright says he had money to frame and was to Swear to It seems my Lord had the Command of it it seems to have been prepared for such a good time as This and the producing of this Paper is as full a Confirmation of this point as can in reason be expected My Lords I have been I fear too long already and yet I fear I have omitted as many particulars as I have mentioned My Lords The Evidence is so strong that I think it admits of no doubt and the Offences proved against my Lord and the rest of his Party are so foul that they need no aggravation The Offences are against the King against His Sacred Life against the Protestant Religion nay against all Protestants for it was for the Extirpation of all Protestants out of these Three Nations I mean not of every one that is now so but of every one that would have continued so every one amongst us if these Designs had been accomplished must either have turned his Religion or turned out of his Countrey or have been burned in it 'T is a Design that appears with so dreadful a Countenance to Your Lordships to this great Assembly and to the whole Nation that it needs not any words I can use to make you apprehend it If the matter be fully proved as I see no reason to doubt but that it is I am sure your Lordships will do that Justice to Your King and Countrey as to give Judgment against these Offenders which will not only be a Security to us against them but a Terror to all others against comitting the like Offences L. Stafford I beg of your Lordships to know whether you will give me leave to speak a word And my Lords I shall not speak any thing but as to a mistake Sir Will. Jones hath made in two or three things Pray my Lords may I put you in mind of them Sir William Jones If there be any mistake pray tell us what it is L. Stafford First My Lords he did omit telling you that Mr. Turbervill's Brother did say he came in 71 to my Lord Powis's Secondly He says I have proved my self a Papist because I have not taken the Test My Lords the Test was since I was in the Tower and whether I will take it or not I do not yet know till it be offered me The Third is this That this Letter was in my Pocket which I produced to you my Lords I knew nothing what was in it it was given into my hand as I stood here at the Bar. Fourthly He said Hobson did go out of England with the Almoner he did not so Another thing he says that I said Oats was an infamous person because he went to a Church that I said was Idolatrous I only said it was so adjudged by Act of Parliament I find my Lords these things he is mistaken in and that my Lords made me very willing to put You in mind of them L. H. Steward Gentlemen I would ask you whether you take any Notice of the Points in Law Sir Fran. Winn. After the Fact is stated my Lords we shall Then Mr. Powle also one of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence proceeded further in Summing up of the same Mr. Powle My Lords the Learned Person that spake last hath left very little for me to say in the Summing of this Evidence But because this Noble Lord hath been pleased to alledge several Reasons from whence he would infer at least a great improbability that he should be guilty of the Treasons whereof he stands Accused I shall crave your Lordships patience that I may give Three or Four words in answer to those particulars My Lords In the first place this Noble Lord was pleased to begin and afterwards to continue his Defence with making protestations of his own Innocency We very well know your Lordships sit now in the Seat of Justice and whatsoever credit or regard your Lordships please to give to the Protestations of a Peer in
a point of Fact Let us therefore resort to the Articles themselves In the 2 d Article it is alledged that he with the rest did most wickedly and traiterously agree conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murther His Sacred Majesty and to deprive Him of his Regal State and Government And then the same Article alledges farther that they did contrive and consult to effect the Murther of the King by Shooting by Poisoning and by Stabbing All these particulars are expressed so that when my Lord said the Articles were therein defective all we can say is that he was misinform'd My Lords there was another Exception taken that this is the Impeachment of another Parliament I must not now repeat how this Point was agreed by both Houses at a Conference But it was then declared upon search of Precedents in all ages that it was the Law of Parliaments which is the Law of the Land that if once an Impeachment by the House of Commons were lodged in the House of Lords tho' that Parliament were dissolved the Impeachment remained in the same state It was the Cause of the Commons of England who only change their Representatives in a new Parliament It has been also objected that this Prosecution ought to have been upon an Indictment As if an Accusation of the House of Commons who are the grand Inquest of the Nation were not as effectual to bring Offenders to Justice as the finding of a particular Jury My Lords I should wonder to hear this Objection made were not my Lord to be easily excused for his knowing the Law no better None who know any thing in the Law would have urg'd such a thing His Counsel I dare say did not suggest this matter to him It is true my Lords when a Peer comes to be Tried by way of Commission or in Parliament when it is not at the prosecution of the Commons there an Indictment is first found in the proper County and brought up before the Peers by Certiorari and upon that they proceed But whether the Party be Peer or Commoner if he be Impeach'd for any Crimes surely no one can deny but that by the constant use of Parliaments the Lords have proceeded to Trial and have given Judgment thereupon without an Indictment found So that this Exception will be of no force at all As for the remaining Objection that there are not two Witnesses to prove any one Overt Act the Kings Person would be in no manner of safety if that Doctrine should be once allowed Conspiring to kill the King is the Treason laid in the Impeachment and the several Overt Acts are so many several Evidences of that Treason Words themselves if they signifie an intention to do an Act and express something to be done in futuro are a sufficient Overt Act a legal Evidence of Treason Then we prove by another Witness not words of encouragement only but offers of money and they are both to the same kind of Treason tho' not to the same Act and at the same time And if there must be 2 Witnesses to every single Act the King of England is not only in a far worse condition than any other Prince but than any one of his own Subjects Treasons may be committed every day with Impunity and unless the Traytors be as great Fools as Villains he shall never be safe from them nor capable of punishing them I must say it and I say it with commiseration to the Condition of this Noble Lord that his Exceptions in Law are as weak as the Answers he has given to our Evidence We hope no doubt in Law remains with you and that we have given your Lordships full satisfaction of the reality of the Plot and a convincing Evidence of the great share which my Lord Stafford had in it and we humbly pray your Lordships Justice Lord High Steward You do not take notice of one thing that my Lord Stafford said this morning That is that the Witnesses are not competent Witnesses because they swore for Money and that is fit to be spoken unto not for the Weight of the Objection so much as for the Satisfaction of the Auditory Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I had taken a Note of that but forgot to mention it If my Lord at the Bar will say they have taken Money to swear that is purely a Matter of Fact which he ought to prove and that which is said and not proved ought to go for nothing let him prove his Case to be so and then we will give him an Answer Lord High Stward My Lord Stafford if your Lordship can prove that they have had Money to swear your Lordship urges that which will be material but if it were only Money to maintain them that sure will amount to no Objection Lord Stafford My Lords I submit it to your Lordships whether Dr. Oats and the rest have not had great Sums of Money besides their Charges 10 l. a week a piece But I desire your Lordships to consider and I appeal to many of your Lordships whether it has not been said that it was a defect in Coleman's and Langhorn's Trials that they did not plead that and if they had pleaded it they must have been acquitted I will name no body but I appeal to your Lordships whether some of you have not said so But I desire your Lordships to admit me to plead by my Counsel if not I submit to you I confess here is a piece of Law that I never heard of before that the House of Commons and your Lordships at a Conference have adjudged it to be the Law of Parliaments that Impeachments shall continue from Parliament to Parliament If you will please to hear my Counsel for me so if not I submit Lord High Steward What would you or can you prove Lord Stafford My Lords Those things that I have given in to your Lordships I desire my Counsel may be heard to Lord High Steward Gentlemen what can you object why he should not have Counsel to argue his Objections in Law Sir William Jones My Lords I do think under favour if a Prisoner in a Capital Cause do desire Counsel he must not only alledge matter of Law to introduce that Desire but that which he doth alledge must be also a matter of some Doubt to the Court For if he do alledge matter which in it self is not Disputable he shall have no Counsel allowed him If your Lordships are not satisfied that it is the Law of your House that Proceedings upon Impeachments do continue from Parliament we cannot answer that it lies in your Lordships breasts it is not what we are to argue because it is a matter that concerns the Law and Rules of Parliaments Is there my Lords any doubt of any other Point that is urged Is there any doubt of this thing whether if one Witness speak to one point of Fact and another to another upon the same sort of Treason but that
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
to give some Reasons to your Lordships why those Laws that were against them should be repealed as well Protestant Dissenters as those of the Church of Rome and why they should have some kind of Toleration among whom you did permit those of the Romish Religion to appear too I forget their Names And I remember particularly one of the forts of them an Anabaptist I think did urge for a Reason that which is a great truth that they held Rebellion to be the Sin of Whitchcrast I believe it is as bad as any Sin can be My Lords that came to nothing at that time but my Lords I believe that after that all of all Religions had Meetings among themselves to endeavour to get that Toleration which they proposed humbly to your Lordships there I will never deny my Lords that my Opinion was and is that this Kingdom can never be happy till an Act of Parliament pass to this Effect it was my Opinion then and I did endeavour it all I could that the Dissenting Protestants might have a Comprehension and the other a Toleration I acknowledge it to be my Intention and I think it was no ill one for if that be a true Copy of the Commons Votes which is in Print there is some such thing designing there as a Comprehension and I was of Opinion that it were sufficient that such as were of the Church of Rome might by Act of Parliament serve God in their own Houses and privately in their own Way not in publick and that for it they should pay something to the King out of their Estates but truly not much That they should be severely punished if they or any of them did endeavour to persuade any Subject to their Opinion or did come to Court or enjoy any Office whatsoever though it were but that of a Scavenger but that they should pay their proportion to all chargeable Offices That I profess my Lords was my Opinion and I confess to your Lordships 't is so still I was in some hopes that it would have been done in that Sessions because I was afraid it was unlikely to be done at any time else I confess to your Lordships I was heartily and cordially against the Test because it hindred those just and honest things that were for the Good of the Kingdom My Lords there was the first or or the second Day brought into your Lordships House the Record of Mr. Coleman's Tryal and for the Letters in it I do my Lords declare to your Lordships I never read of one of them before but I have read them since they have been in Print And when I read them first cursorily over my Opinion was and is That Coleman's endavouring by Money out of France and keeping off the Parliament to get a Toleration was that which he could not justifie by Law how fat it was Criminal that I do not know I am not so skilled in the Law I think it was not justifiable but he hath paid for it severely since My Lords I do declare that ever since I had the Honour to fit among your Lordships which is now 40 Years for in the Year 1640. I was by His Majesties favour called up a Peer I have valued my self upon the Honour of sitting with you and I do declare when I have sat in this House when your Lordships have desired the King when it was hot weather and unseasonable to put off the Sitting of the Parliament I was never glad of it but sorry when they were prorogued but for a short time This I profess is true and I hope I am no Criminal in it for I do value the Parliaments Sitting to be the only means to keep this Kingdom quiet My Lords 'T is very true by Coleman's Letters and what I have seen in print since I do believe there have been some Consultations for a Toleration and if I had known as much then as I have since I have been in the Tower I had perhaps prevented many things for my Lords I hold England to be a great and an happy Body but it is as other great Bodies are it may be now as you know before it was over-grown or sick it was then and I pray God it be not now but I hold nothing can cure it but that old English Physician the King your Lordships and the Commons in Parliament assembled But if I had known any such Design as Coleman's Letters do hint I would not have continued in England My Lords For that damnable Opinion of King-killing if I were of any Church whatsoever and found that to be its Principle I would leave it My Lords this is as true as I can speak any thing in the world I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my impertinencies and hope you pardon it to my weakness My Lords I do profess before Almighty God and before your Lordships my Judges I know no one tittle nor point of the Plot and if I did I hold my self bound to declare it For the present I shall say little more unless the Managers give me occasion if they will reply and make any Objections I desire I may answer them I know the great disadvantages I am under when these Gentlemen who are great Scholars and Learned Men reply upon me who have those great helps of Memory Parts and Understanding in the Law all which I want And therefore I hope your Lordships will dot conclude me upon what they or I have said but will be pleased to debate the matter among your selves and be as well my Counsel as my Judges My Lords when I offer to your Lordships matter of Law I did in no wise admit the matter of Fact Lord High Steward My Lord I cannot hear you Lord Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please that Paper may be read Lord High Steward Deliver your Paper in my Lords cannot hear Lord Stafford I cannot â—eny to your Lordships that what happened to me on Saturday night disturbed me very much Every day since I came â—â—ther there hath been such shouting and houting by a Company of barbarous Rabble as never was heard the like I believe but it was at a distance most of the time and so it did not much concern me But Saturday night it was so near and so great that really it hath disturbed me ever since it was great to day but at a distance if it were not thus I should not offer a Paper to be read I scarce know what I do or say considering the Circumstances I am in Lord High Steward Take my Lords Paper and read it Sir Thomas Lee. My Lords I desire you will please to consider whether this may not introduce a new Custom by reading of this Paper As to what my Lord is pleased to say I am sorry for the occasion that any disturbance should arise to my Lord from the Rabble or any one else I hope his Lordship believes we cannot help nor do we contribute to that
he knew of the Plot 15 or 16 years ago if I be not mistaken he says so Mr. Dugd. My Lords if your Lordships please to give me leave to explain my self further it was not for taking away the life of the King but for making ready against the King died with Men and Arms. L. Staff My Lords he says in the latter end of August or beginning of September I told him such and sucâ— things I desire he may name the day that may be many days and I may prove I was not there and I can prove for all August and a good while in September therefore I desire he may name the day L. H. Steward My Lord Stafford I come thus near on purpose to serve your Lordship that you may not strain your voice too much but I am not so happy as to apprehend what it is you say L. Staff My Lords I say he speaks of the latter end of August or beginning of September which is too great a latitude and I conceive more than ought to be given in such a matter of importance as this is to me I desire he may name the day for he may name days perhaps that I was not there L. H. Steward Look you Mr. Dugdale my Lord does desire if you can you would be a little more particular than about the latter end of August or the beginning of September if you can remember the day tell it us Mr. Dugd. I cannot remember particular days it being a thing I then took no account of only this I do remember by a remarkable circumstance that one time was either the 20. or 21. of September 78. L. H. Stew. That was the time of your coming into his Chamber and his offering you five hundred pound Mr. Dugd. It was so but other meetings I dare not charge to a day Lord Stafford How then can I make my Defence Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford How my Lords can I be able to give an account of it I shall prove to your Lordships that he once said it was in August now he says it was in August or September I beseech you that he may positively stand to the month if not to the day Mr. Dugdale I speak as neer as I can Lord Stafford But he says the 20. or 21. particularly Mr. Dugdale Thereabouts I am sure it was Lord Stafford Look you he will be positive in nothing Mr. Dugdale I will stand to that time Lord Stafford If he swears false in one thing I hope upon proof of that your Lordships will believe he may be false in all I pray he may be asked what hour of the day it was whether it was morning or afternoon L. H. Steward He is positive only to the 20. or 21. of September the time when he says you called for him into your Chamber and offered him five hundred pound to kill the King would your Lordship ask him whether it were in the forenoon or afternoon Lord Stafford Yes my Lord I would Lord High Steward Was it in the forenoon or in the afternoon Mr. Dugdale It was in the forenoon for I did formerly speak of that he was dressing himself when I came in L. H. Steward Then that is answered positively Lord Stafford My Lords he says one Sunday morning I came to my Lord Astons to Mass I desire you would please to ask him whether ever he saw Mr. Evers and me in his life alone together L. H. Steward Have you seen my Lord Stafford and Mr. Evers ever together alone Mr. Dugdale Several times I have seen them walking together in the Garden and in the Walks at my Lord Astons and I have been with them my self when there hath been only them two besides L. H. Stew. That is answered fully will your Lordship ask him any thing else Lord Stafford He says he was to go to London in October with me I stand not upon that till I come to make my Answer but I take it he says the 20. or 21. of September when I offered him five hundred pound in my Chamber to kill the King that he went presently to Evers to speak with him about it Lord High Stew. As doubting the payment of the money and he told him that Harcourt and Ireland would pay it Lord Stafford Was it the same day pray ask him my Lords Mr. Dugdale I do not say it was the same day but it was the next time I could come to speak with him Lord High Steward He tells you it was as soon as he could speak with him Lord Stafford He said before it was presently after he went from me I desire your Lordships would take notice how he contradicts himself in every circumstance Lord High Stew. What say you did you go presently to Mr. Evers after my Lord Stafford had made the offer Or was it the same day or the next day Mr Dugdale To the best of my remembrance it was the same day I can't say positively Lord Stafford My Lords I have no other Questions with Dugdale Sir John Trevor Then my Lords we will call another Witness Lord High Steward Have you no more to say to Dugdale my Lord Lord Stafford Not at present till I come to make my defence Lord High Stew. God forbid but you should have leave to say all that you can for your self Mr. Treby Then set up Dr. Oats Do your Lordships require that he should be sworn again Lord Stafford I desire nothing nor propose it if he will declare upon his Oath that he took yesterday Lord High Stew. Heark you Dr. Oats This is but a continuation of the Proceedings yesterday you are upon the same Oath now that you were then and what you say this morning will be taken to be upon the same Oath Mr. Treby Dr. Oats upon the Oath you have taken yesterday Lord High Stew. Pray swear him again which was done Mr. Treby Dr. Oats Pray speak your knowledge of my Lord Stafford's being ing aged in the Design Dr. Oats I desire I may be left to my own method L. H. Steward Go on in your own method Dr. Oats My Lords in the year 67. there were divers attempts upon the life of the King as the Jesuits told me and in the year 74. there was an attempt upon the account of the Kings withdrawing the Indulgence in 74. and 75. in the year 1677. whilst I was in Spain I met with several letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did assure the Jesuits in Spain that were of the Irish Nation how zealous he should appear in the promoting of the Catholick Design My Lords in the year 77. I went to St. Omers and I came there in December My Lords in that year I being ordered to look over the Papers and put them in order I found several Letters signed Stafford wherein my Lord Stafford did intimate to the Fathers that whereas there had been some difference betwixt him and the Society for several years
the business was reconciled by one Seignior Con who came over into England in the year 76. to reconcile the great Difference that was betwixt the Jesuits and the secular Clergy and between the Benedictine Monks and the Jesuits My Lords my Lord Stafford upon the perswasion of this Seignior Con as he does intimate in his letter does assure the Jesuits of his fidelity and his zeal My Lords in the year 78. I found letters from my Lord Stafford wherein he does blame Mr. Coleman's openness and his being too publick in the great Affair and that Mr. Coleman was pleased to communicate several great secrets to men of whose Fidelity his Lordship was not secure My Lords in the year 78. in the month of June my Lord Stafford the Prisoner at the Bar came to Mr. Fenwick and there received a Commission from him to pay an Army that was to be raised for the promoting of the Catholick Interest and he did assure Mr. Fenwick that he was going down into Staffordshire and there he did not question but he should have a good account how the Catholicks stood affected and he did not question but to give a good account how Affairs stood in Staffordshire Shropshire and Lancashire and this Commission to my Lord Stafford was as neer as I can remember to be Pay-Master-General of the Army My Lords among other Discourses with my Lord at the Bar he was discoursing about my Lord Duke of Norfolk and my Lord Arundel his Son and after several other passages he Fenwick was asking of him how my Lord Arundel came to have a Jesuit in his House My Lord Stafford did say that my Lord of Peterborough his Father in Law was instrumental in it on purpose to oblige the Duke of York for my Lord Arundel as I have been told kept Father Symonds in his House who to my knowledge was a Jesuit But my Lords he came to Mr. Fenwicks my Lord Stafford did by the name of Mr. Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward Were you at Fenwicks when my Lord Stafford came to his Chamber Dr. Oats Yes my Lords L. H. Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford is that the same Person Dr. Oats It is the same Gentleman that came there by the name of Howard of Effingham L. H. Steward And he took the Commission Dr. Oats Yes he did so L. H. Steward And he promised to effect it Dr. Oats Yes And he said that he was then going down into the Countrey and he did not doubt but at his return Grove should do the business L. H. Steward Who said so Fenwick Dr. Oats No my Lord Stafford And says Fenwick to my Lord Stafford again Sir â—tis fit that some should be here present least you fail of your Expectation or to that purpose 'T is two years since and I cannot remember the words but my Lord Stafford did say he was of necessity to go into the Country at that time And there he did write a letter to St. Omers in which he did excuse himself about a young man that was to be sent to the Jesuits Colledge whom he had taken care of another way And he desired their excuse but he would be as faithful to them as any body for all that And the same hand that wrote that letter by all the comparing I could make in my thoughts wrote all the other Letters that I saw at St. Omers and in Spain My Lords I saw my Lord Stafford at Dr. Perrotts I think verily it was in June or July 78. it was before the rising of the Parliament that sat that Summer and my Lord Stafford was discoursing of a Son he was to send over to Lisbon and he went over by the name of Sir John Stafford And after this Discourse was over they fell into a Discourse of the Affairs in hand and my Lord was mighty glad there was so good a Correspondence and Concord though my Lords it was not very great for the Jesuits have an irreconcileable Quarrel with the rest of the Clergy But my Lord did hope that their fair Correspondence might tend highly to the advancing the Catholick Cause But my Lords I have one thing more to speak as to the Discourse at Fenwicks Chamber speaking of the King he said He hath deceived us a great while and we can bear no longer Lord High Stew. Who said so Dr. Oats My Lord Stafford the Gentleman at the Bar. Lord High Stew. When was that At Dr. Perrotts Dr. Oats No I speak of a passage at Fenwick's which I had forgot My Lords this is all I can remember at present M. Foley My Lords I desire he may give an Account what letters my Lord Stafford sent to Fenwick and Ireland to pay money Dr. Oats There was some money returned but it was no great Sum and it was about private business Mr. Morgan was to receive it I chanced to have the money in my own keeping Mr. Fenwick gave it me to pay to Mr. Morgan and the letter in which the Sum was mentioned did give them an Account for it was out of Staffordshire that he found things stand in a very good state there but I being not within Mr. Morgan called on Mr. Fenwick for the money which I returned to him when he had paid it Lord Stafford My Lords I do in the first place desire to know where Mr. Fenwick lived Lord High Stew. Where did Mr. Fenwick live when you saw my Lord at his Chamber and the Commission delivered Dr. Oats His Lordship I suppose knows very well where he lived he lived in Drury-lane Lord Stafford I will submit to any thing if I ever saw the man or heard of him till the Discovery of the Plot. Dr. Oats He came to him by the name of Thompson Lord High Stew. Your Lordship does not observe your Lordship says that you never knew any Fenwick but your Lordship knew one Thompson and that Thompson was Fenwick Lord Stafford I did know one Thompson but that Thompson I knew was an â—nglish Merchant in Brussels and not a Jesuit Dr. Oats I can't say what my Lord knows that he knew Fenwick to be a Jesuit but he knew one Thompson that was Fenwick the Jesuit Lord Stafford I never heard of the Name till this Plot. Dr. Oats But if your Lordships please I will give you a reason why I believe he knew him to be a Jesuit because the Society was very often in their mouths in their Discourses which gives me a ground to believe he knew him to be what he was but my Lord he took his Commission from him Lord Stafford I desire he may be asked L. H. Steward Good my Lord raise your voice for I am come half way to hear you Lord Stafford Pray my Lords give me leave to ask him whether Dr. Oats hath not said several times since I was first imprisoned that he never saw me in his life I think I was imprisoned the 21. of October 78. Dr. Oats I never said any such thing
Representative Body of the Commons of England and I confess my Lords to be accused by them was a load especially being added to what lay before upon me more especially to my â—eak Body and weaker mind that I was so afflicted with it and have so continued that I am scarce able to bear up under it For I look upon the House of Commons as the great and worthy Patriots of this Kingdom I ever held them so and I hold them so still My Lords These things being such great afflictions to me and some other accidents which I shall not trouble your Lordships with the telling you of have so much disordered my sense and reason which before was little that I scarce know how to clear my self to your â—ordships as I ought to do or which way to go about the doing of it therefore I do with all humility beg your Lordships pardon if I say any thing that may give an offence or urge that which may not be to the purpose All which I desire you would be pleased to attribute to the true Cause my want of understanding not of innocency or a desire to make it appear My Lords These Gentlemen the Managers of the House of Commons who are great and able men some I am sure if not all of them very well read and have understanding in the Law have set forth to your Lordships Treason in an horrid shape but I confeâ—s my Lords if they had made it never so much worse it cannot be so horrid as I have often fancied it my self for my Lords I do and did ever hold Treason to be the greatest sin in the World and I cannot use words enough to express it and therefore I hope you will give me leave to clear my self of it and I shall give you one Notion of it which I heard at your Lordships Bar some years ago where you were pleased to here several people of several perswasions give you some reason why Liberty of Conscience should be allowed them And I remember one of them an Anabaptiâ—t I think did tell you that they held Treason to be the sin of Witchcraft and so do â— And next to Treason I hold Murder to be the worst sin But the Murder of the King I looked upon to be so above all others that it is not to be expressed by words My Lords I have heard very much of a thing that was named by these Gentlemen of the House of Commons and that very properly too to wit of the Gun-powder Treason My Lords I was not born then but some years after I heard very much Discourse of it and very various Reports and I made a particular inquiry perhaps more than any one person did else both of my Father who was aâ—ive then and my Uncle and others and I am satisfied and do clearly believe by the Evidence I have received That that thing called the Gun-powder Treason was a wicked and horrid Design among the rest of some of the Jesuits and I think the malice of the Jesuits or the Wit of man cannot offer an excuse for it it was so execrable a thing Besides my Lords I was acquainted with one of them that was concerned in it who had his pardon and lived many years after I discoursed with him about it and he confessed it and said he was sorry for it then and I here declare to your Lordships that I never heard any one of the Churâ—h of Rome speak a good word of it it was so horrid a thing that it cannot be expressed nor excused And God Almighty shewed his Judgments upon them for their wickedness for hardly any of the Persons or their Posterity are left that were concâ—rned in it and even a very great Family too that had collaterally something to do in it is in the Male line extinct totally and I do think God Almighty always shews his Judgments upon such vile Actions And I have been told all those persons that were engaged in this wicked Act were all heartily sorry for it and repented of it before they died without which I am sure there is no Salvation And therefore I think it was not the Interest of Religion but a private Interest put them upon it My Lords As to the Doctrine of King-killing and Absolving persons from their Allegiance I cannot say the Church of Rome does not hold it I never heard it did hold it it may be it does it may be not I say not one thing or other but my Lords there was an English Colledge of Priests at Rhemes that translated the Bible and printed it with Authority according to their Translation and in their Annotations upon the fourteenth Chapter of the Epistle to the Romans they do declare their dislike and detestation of that Opinion They say all Subjects ought to obey their Kings as the 〈◊〉 mitive Christians did the Heathen Princes of the Empire and the learned Doctors of the Colledge of Sorbonne did upon an occasion administred to them about that Opinion declare the mistakes that were in it and owned it to be a damnable Principle My Lords I have an Authentical Copy of that Decree of the Sorbonists whether it be here or no I can't tell Yes here it is which does declare that a damnable Position and there is lately come out a Book written by a Priest of the Church of Rome tryed for his life for being in the Plot but acquitted of that in which he says that that Opinion of killing Kings is damnable and herettical and declared so by the Council of Trent My Lords This gives me occasion to believe that the Church of Rome holds it not I do not say that it does not but some particular persons do abhor it which are great in that Church and which weighs far with me but that which further most of all confirms me in my ill Opinion of it is the words of our Saviour when not only he commands us to give unto Caesar the things that are Caesars but asserts our Obedience to our Governours in many other passages of the Holy Scripture and what I find there the whole World is not able to alter my Opinion of I do assure your Lordships in the presence of Almighty God That I do extreamly admire when I hear of any thing like it and I did read with great horror what I found the other day in the Gazette of some imprudent people in Scotland and of their wicked Principles and Practices My Lords I do in the presence of Almighty God who knows and sees all things and of his Angels which are continually about us and of your Lordships who are my Peers and Judges solemnly profess and declare that I hate and detest any such Opinion as I do damnation to my self And I cannot be more desirous of Salvation to my self than I am cordial in hating this Opinion My Lords I know no person upon Earth nor all the persons in the world put together nor all the Power