design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denied their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denial of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denial of the Courts Jurisdiction and that if he had no more to say they would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavour'd to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament stil'd Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintained A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some stiled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Follies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the World What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appear'd so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Independents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in fewer than all when in all it is Democracy for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. It is not impossible for a people to be well govern'd that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one voice though they be many men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same voice which is the voice of the greatest part and
came to Black-Heath and thence sent to the City to get passage through it to joyn with those which were risen in Essex under Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle which being denied the greatest part of his Kentish men deserted him with the rest not above five hundred he crossed the Thames unto the Isle of Dogs and so to Bow and thence to Colchester Fairfax having notice of this crossed the Thames at Graves-End and overtaking them besieg'd them in Colchester The Town had no defence but a Bulwark and yet held out upon hope of the Scotch Army to relieve them the space of two Months Upon the news of the defeat of the Scots they were forced to yield the Earl of Norwich was sent Prisoner to London Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle two Loyal and Gallant Persons were shot to Death There was also another little Insurrection headed by the Earl of Holland about Kingston but quickly supprest and he himself taken Prisoner B. How came the Scots to be so soon dispatcht A. Meerly as it is said for want of Conduct The Army was led by Duke Hamilton who was then set at liberty when Pendennis Castle where he was Prisoner was taken by the Parliament He entred England with Horse and Foot 10000 to which came above 3000 English Royalists Against these Cromwel marched out of Wales with Horse and Foot 11000 and near to Preston in Lancashire in less then two hours defeated them and the cause of it is said to be that the Scotch Army was so ordered as they could not all come to the Fight nor relieve their Fellows After the Defeat they had no way to fly but farther into England so that in the Pursuit they were almost all taken and lost all that an Army could lose for the few that got home did not all bring home their Swords Duke Hamilton was taken and not long after sent to London but Cromwel marched to Edenburrough and there by the help of the Faction which was contrary to Hamilton's he made sure not to be hindred in his designs the first whereof was to take away the Kings Life by the hand of the Parliament whilst these things passed in the North the Parliament Cromwel being away came to it self and recalling their Vote of Non-Addresses sent to the King new Propositions somewhat but not much easier than the former and upon the King's answer to them they sent Commissioners to treat with him at Newport in the Isle of Wight where they so long dodged with him about Trifles that Cromwel was come to London before they had done to the Kings destruction for the Army was now wholly at the Devotion of Cromwel who set the Adjutators on work to make a Remonstrance to the House of Commons wherein they require 1. That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summon'd to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the Kings chief Instruments be executed and this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a general agreement of the people testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an answer but presently set a Guard of Souldiers at the Parliament-House Door and other Souldiers in Westminster-Hall suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns all others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers quarrels suspended About ninety of them because they had refus'd to Vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were a House for Cromwel The Phanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common Council whereof any forty was to be above the Mayor and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the King which Tichbourn the Mayor involving the City in the Regicide deliver'd to the Parliament At the same time with like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for his Tryal the Parliament in the mean time to avoid Perjury by an Ordinance declar'd void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Tryal B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many men swear fingly they may when they are assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several readings it was voted That the Lords and Commons of England assembled in Parliament do declare that by the Fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurr'd or no and that the People under God are the Original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supreme Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons Enacted is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe that under God the Original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their Heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supreme Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful Heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are griev'd but not to make a grievance of the Kings Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them Is it to be imagin'd that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the case every County and Burrough should have given for a benevolence a sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County Court or elsewhere and that every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several sums respectively to the Parliament had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained First a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Incroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had
The HISTORY OF THE Civil Wars OF ENGLAND From the Year 1640 to 1660. By T. H. Religio p perit Scelerosa atque impia Facta Tantum Religio potuit Suadere Malorum Lucret. de Natur. Rer. Lib. I. Placavi Sanguine Deos. Hor. Serm. Lib. II. Satyr 3. Quicquid delirant Reges Plectuntur Achivi Hor. Cui potior Patria fuit interdicta voluptas Hor. Lib. I. Epist 6. Sociusque Fraternae Necis Sua Urbs haec periret dextera Suis ipsa Roma viribus Ruit Hor. Epod. 16. Printed in the Year 1679. THE HISTORY OF THE Civil VVars OF ENGLAND A. If in time as in place there were Degrees of high and low I verily believe that the highest of time whould be that which passeth betwixt 1640 and 1660. For he that thence as from the Divils Mountain should have looked upon the World and observed the Actions of Men especially in England might have had a Prospect of all kinds of Injustice and of all kinds of Folly that the world could afford and how they were produced by then Hypocrisy and self-conceit whereof the one is double Iniquity and the other double Folly B. I should be glad to behold the Prospect you that have lived in that time and in that part of your Age wherein Men used to see best into good and evil I pray you set me that could not see so well upon the same Mountain by the relation of the actions you then saw of their Causes Pretentions Justice Order Artifice and Events A. In the year 1640. The Government of England was Monarchical and the King that reigned Charles the I. of that Name holding the Soveraignty by Right of a Discent continued above 600 years and from a much longer Discent King of Scotland and from the Time of his Ancestors Henry the 2. King of Ireland a Man that wanted no Vertue either of Body or Mind nor endeavour'd any thing more than to discharge his Duty towards his God in the well-governing of his Subjects B. How could he than miscarry having in every County so many Train'd-bands as would put together have made an Army of 60000 Men and divers Magazenes of Ammunition in Places fortified A. If those Souldiers had been as they and all others of his Subjects ought to have been at his Majesties Command the Peace and Hapiness of the Three Kingdoms had continued as it was left by K. James but the People were corrupted generally and Disobedient Persons esteemed the best Patriots B But sure there were Men enough besides those that were ill-affected to have made an Army sufficient for to have kept the People from uniting into a Body able to oppose him A. Truely if the King had had Money I think he might have had Souldiers enough in England for there were very few of the common People that cared much for either of the Causes but would have taken any side for pay and plunder But the Kings treasure was very low and his Enemies that pretended the Peoples ease from Taxes and other specious things had the Command of the Purses of the City of London and of most Cities and Corporate Towns in England and of many particular Persons besides B. But how comes the People to be so corrupted and what kind of People were they that did so seduce them A. The Seducers were of divers sorts One sort were Ministers Ministers as they called themselves of Christ and sometimes in their Sermons to the People Gods Embassadors pretending to have a Right from God to govern every one his Parish and their Assembly the whole Nation Secondly There were a very great number though not comparable to the other which notwithstanding that the Popes Power in England both Temporal and Ecclesiastical had been by Act of Parliament abolished did still retain a belief that we ought to be governed by the Pope whom they pretended to be the Vicar of Christ and in the Right of Christ to be the Governour of all Christian People and these were known by the Name of PAPISTS as the Ministers I mentioned before were commonly called PRESBYTERIANS Thirdly There were not a few who in the beginning of the Troubles were not discovered but shortly after declared themselves for a Liberty in Religion and those of different opinions one from another Some of them because they would have all Congregations free and independant upon one another were called INDEPENDANTS others that held Baptism to Infants and such as understood not into what they are Baptized to be ineffectual were called therefore ANABAPTISTS Others that held that Christs Kingdom was at this time to begin upon the Earth were called FIFTH-MOMARCHY-MEN besides divers other Sects as QUAKERS ADAMITES c. whose names and peculiar Doctrines I do not very well remember and these were the Enemies which arose against his Majesty from the private Interpretation of the Scripture exposed to every Mans scanning in his Mother Tongue Fourthly There were an exceeding great number of Men of the better sort that had been so educated as that in their youth having read the Books written by famous men of the Antient Grecian and Roman Commonwealths concerning their Policy and great Actions in which Book the Popular Government was extold by that glorious Name of Liberty and Monarchy disgraced by the Name of Tyranny they became thereby in love with their form of Government And out of these men were chosen the greatest part of the HOUSE OF COMMONS or if they were not the greatest part yet by advantage of their Eloquence were always able to sway the rest Fifthly The City of London and other great Towns of Trade having in admiration the prosperity of the low Countries after they had revolted from their Monarch the King of Spain were inclined to think that the like change of Government here would to them produce the like prosperity Sixthly There were a very great Number that had either wasted their fortunes or thought them too mean for the good part they thought were iâ— themselves and more there were that had able bodies and saw no means how honestly to get their Bread These longed for a War and hoped to maintain themselves hereafter by the lucky chusing of a Party to side with and consequently did for the most part serve under them that had greatest plenty of Money Lastly The People in general were so ignorant of their Duties as that not one perhaps of 1000 knew what Right any man had to command him or what necessity there was of King or Common-wealth for which he was to part with his money against his will but thought himself to be so much Master of whatsoever he possest that it could not be taken from him upon any pretence of Common Safety without his own consent King they thought was but a Title of the highest honour which Gentlemen Knight Baron Earl Luke were but steps to ascend to with the help of Riches and had no Rule of Equity but Precedents and Custom and he was thought
Laws and of inflicting Punishments then him that pretendeth only to a Right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Coaction or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for Punishing can there be a greater then Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell then the King that can only kill the Body A. You say true for it were very Uncharitable in me to believe that all English men except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that dye Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day Do you not think them also Damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for Disobedience to the Kings Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for Sin and therefore if he Dye Excommunicate and without desire of Reconciliation he Dies Impenitent you see what follows But to Dye in Disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite an other Case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to Depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of there Dominions A. Heresie is a word which when it is used without Passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the Old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoâ—â—ks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same Relation to the power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the power Temporal and is sutably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a power Spiritual and Dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the Holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our Actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as Hereticks for else not only men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresy is by Law declared in an Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any Matter or Cause to be Heresy but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresy by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4. General Counsels or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresy by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scripures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresy by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresy many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresy without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresy neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a Man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to himself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Councel can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councels have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Counsel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Mâ—cedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Counsel assembled at Ephesus condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ. The Fourth held at Calcodon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ. I know of no other Points condemned in these 4 Counsels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Counsels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Counsels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Counsel and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now conferred a Legislative Power on the Counsels not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian. A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must be the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryâ—r told
him that Christ being King of all the World had given the disposing of all the Kingdoms therein to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have Power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a Manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope for when the Pope inuested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it and from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God and their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter â—rom a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom be infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy for the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent excused himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperour did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperour was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperour never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperour but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperour for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than unto the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful for a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the Power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any Controversy between Him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings Is not he a Bishop now to whom God hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pasture of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he only Shepheard and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian indued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not only a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess and though it were granted that Imposition of Hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self wherein he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this Prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelers at his Service Secondly That Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed in writing but that use was taken away about the time of King Edward the Third and Priests commanded to take Confessions from the Mouth of the Confitent and men did generally believe that without Confession and Absolution before their departure out of the World they could not be saved and having Absolution from a Priest they could not be damned You understand by this how much every man would stand in awe of the Pope and Clergy more than they would of the King and what inconveniency
it is for a State to have their Subjects confess their secret thoughts to Spies B. Yes as much as Eternal Torture is more terrible than Death so much they would fear the Clergy more than the King A. And though perhaps the Roman Clergy will not maintain that a Priest hath power to remit Sins absolutely but only with a condition of Repentance yet the people were never so instructed by them but were left to believe that whensoever they had Absolution their precedent Sins were all discharged when their Penance which they took for Repentance was performed in the same time began the Article of Transubstantiation for it had been disputed a long time before in what manner a man did eat the Body of our Saviour Jesus Christ as being a point very difficult for a man to conceive and imagine clearly but now it was made very clear that the Bread was Transubstantiated into Christs Body and so was become no more Bread but Flesh. B. It seems then that Christ had many Bodies and was in as many places at once as there were Communicants I think the Priests then were so wanton as to insist upon the dulness not only of common people but also of Kings and their Councelors A. I am now in a Narration not in a Disputation and therefore I would have you at this time to consider nothing else but what effect this Doctrine would work upon Kings and their Subjects in relation to the Clergy who only were able of a piece of Bread to make our Saviours Body and thereby at the hour of death to save their Souls B. For my part it would have an effect on me to make me think them Gods and to stand in awe of them as of God himself if he were visibly present A. Besides these and other Articles tending to the upholding of the Pope's Authority they had many fine points in their Ecclesiastical Policy conducing to the same end of which I will mention only such as were established within the same time for then it was the Order came up of Preaching-Friars that wandred up and down with power to Preach in what Congregation they pleased and were sure enough to instil into the people nothing that might lessen their obedience to the Church of Rome but on the contrary whatsoever might give advantage to it against the Civil Power besides they privately insinuated themselves with Women and Men of weak judgments confirming their adherence to the Pope and urging them in the time of their sickness to be beneficial to it by contribution of Money or building Religious Houses or works of Piety and necessary for the remission of their Sins B. I do not remember that I read of any Kingdom or State in the World where liberty was given to any private man to call the people together and make Orations frequently to them or at all without first making the State acquainted except only in Christendom I believe the Heathen K. foresaw that a few such Orators would be able to make a great Sedition Moses did indeed command to read the Scriptures and expound them in the Synagogues every Sabbath day but the Scriptures then were nothing else but the Laws of the Nation delivered unto them by Moses himself I believe it would do no hurt if the Laws of England also were often read and expounded in the several Congregations of English-men at times appointed that they may know what to do for they know already what to believe A. I think that neither the Preaching of Friers nor Monks nor of Parochial Priests tended to teach men what but whom to believe for the Power of the Mighty hath no foundation but in the opinion and belief of the people and the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperour Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not only from the Scriptures but also from the Phylosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperour by Letter to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the Institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latine Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monastries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Dicipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easy to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the Maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Phylosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then what was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in
France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by the advice as it is thought of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the ministers there for an ordinary form of Divine Service this being read out the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hinderance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was Peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yielded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliament's help at no less a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that they were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am lead by the consideration of Human Nature in general But upon this consideration I see First That men of antient Wealth and Nobility are not apt to brook that poor Schollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of money as a reward of their assistance besides great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling of them down was not all they aimed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down of Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they pretended the Articles of the said Pacification a false and Scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I have heard publickly and so both parts returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in Person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour oâ— Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his Power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that Conquered Carthage by the Valor and Conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man Valiant and Wise enough but he perished in the imployment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is but a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed success in War upon a Name or Family B. After the Pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Councellors they could
not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of Reward and hope of Plunder some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deterr them from the Expedition as hoping by hâ— disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had formerly been accused to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so hardly of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliament to meet at Westminster the 13 of April 1640. B. Methinks a Parliament oâ— England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveteterate Disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which alwayes esteemed the Glory of England for an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of grievances and especially such way of levying money as in the last intermission of Parliament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship money for Knighthood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antient Records of the Kingdom besides they fell upon the Actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late it is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of Bargain for relinquishing his Right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he disolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same Men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to a mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Soveraignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loath to desert the King when he was Invaded by Forreiners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Forrein Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same being Governed by one King should be thought Forreiners to one another the Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the Common People the Priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the Contumelies of other Nations where they resided why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united unto one People A. King James at his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail but for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturaliz'd and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James And was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A. I understand not the subtilty of the Distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded Is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little Equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King James's comeing in What greater Priviledges had those Ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch B. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions Yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France and therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Forreiners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scotch Army was drawn up to the Frontiers and ready to march into England which
also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Country and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose Counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to Stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized upon Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of the People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilfull hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprisoned some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Book and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the People would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-mony B. Ship-mony What 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression and one of their members that had been Taxed but 20 shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 lb. a year Land Taxed at 20 shillings they were forced to bring it to a Trial at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again when all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the â—ame with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their Ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and Governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them besides it were unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge's unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the authority and force of a Law but amongst the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or The great Charter of the Liberties of English men in which there is one Article that no man shall be distrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was the Law of the Land then Did they mean another Magna Charta that was made by some King more antient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any man from payments to the Publick but for securing of every man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining of the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suite in Law but it was conducing to the end of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the members of that Parliament very simple men and yet the People chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be Wisedom they were wise enough but Wise as I deâ—ino it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the Assistance of Knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance a Fool may win from a better Gamester by the advantage of false Dice and Packing of Cards B. According to your difinition there be few wise men now adays such Wisedome is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think Folly fine Cloaths great Feathers Civility towards men that will not swallow Injuries and Injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied money to their
every Man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like points are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of these your wise Men. A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans Duty to obey him or them that have the Sovereign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the Rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with arguments for liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Câ—cero Seâ—ica and 〈◊〉 of the Histories of 〈…〉 for their disputation against the 〈…〉 power of their 〈…〉 therefore I dispare of any 〈…〉 our selves till the 〈…〉 their studies to the 〈…〉 obedience to the Laws of the 〈…〉 to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England for I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory can do over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of state as is necessary for the Business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against the Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both sovereign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry the 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authority of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are Govern'd and the Clergy without the Universities as well Bishops as inferiour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greatest part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that this derivation passed through the hands of Popes Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it not so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergie B. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle for them about the Interpretation of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or purses when they shal be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and liberality to them and partaking with them in faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The 2 Great vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7 was without much noise of the people to â—ill his Coffers that of Henry the 8 was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks me thinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchirstian and unhuman design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may not dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Aâ—tual committing such crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true poliâ—icks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey aâ— Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd suâ—â— as are fit to make Men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them to make Men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the â—ing and that no Man has Title to Govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to God onlâ— and to no Man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting â—or the coming again of our blessed Saviour and
in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in charity with all Men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from scanal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill Principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if Men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey the Laws an Army you l say But what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not very long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that Men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universities themselves be in such manner as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them and the Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this Point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party aginst him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of this business and refer it to some other Day that you shall think fit B. Content that Day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer my money would have been so much the better provided for you B. Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the People believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclind to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase there disaffection to his Majesty they accused him of a purpose to introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom than which nothing was more hateful to the People not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to hear it inveyed against in the Sermons and discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual callumny to alienate the Peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Consecretary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbarini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be Able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell But 〈◊〉 likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There was exception also taken at a Covent of Fryers Capucines in Summerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jesuits also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clarkenwel and in the mean time the Principal Secretary Sir Francis windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuits that had been taken and imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the statute which had made it Capital also the resort of English Catholicks to the Queens-Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen herself not only for that but also for all the favours that had been shown to the Catholicks insomuch that some of them did not stick to say openly that the King was Governed by her B. Strange Injustice The Queen was a Cathâ—lick by profession and therefore could not but endeavour to do the Catholicks all the good she could she had not else been truely that which she professed to be but it seems they meant to force her to Hypocrisy being Hypocrites themselves Can any man think it a crime in a Devout Lady of what Sect soever to seek Favour and Benediction of that Church whereof she is a Member A. To give the Parliament another Colour for their Accusation on foot for the King as to introducing of Popery there was a great Controversy between the Episcopal and Presbyterian Clergy about Free-will The Dispute began first in the Low-Countries between Gomar and Arminius in the time of King James who foreseeing it might trouble the Church of England did what he could to compose the difference an Assembly of Divines was thereupon got together at Dort to which also King James sent a Divine or two but it came to nothing the question was left undecided and became a Subject to be disputed of in the Universities here all the Presbyterians were of the same mind with Gomar but a very great many others not and those were called here Arminians who because the Doctrine of Free-will had been exploded as Papistical and because the Presbyterians were far the greater number and already in favour with the People they were generally hated it was easy therefore for the Parliament to make that Calumny pass currently with the People when the Arch Bishop of Canterbury Dr. Laud was for Arminius and had a little before by his Power Ecclesiastical forbidden all Ministers to Preach to the People of Predestination and when all Ministers that were gracious with him and hoped for any Church-preferment fell to Preaching and Writing for Free-will to the uttermost of their Power as a proof of their Abillity and Merit Besides they gave out some of them that the Arch-Bishop was in heart a Papist and in case he could effect here a Tolleration of the Roman Religion to have a Cardinal's Hat
or at least make great difficulty to furnish the King with Mony necessary for the most urgent occasions of the Commonwealth B. How then can a King discharge his Duty as he ought to do or the Subject know which of his Masters he is to Obey For here are manifestly two Powers which when they chance to differ cannot both be Obeyed A. 'T is true but they have not often differed so much to the danger of the Common-wealth as they have done in this Parliament of 1640. In all the Parliaments of the late King Charles before the year 1640. my Lord of Strafford did appear in opposition to the Kings Demands as much as any man and was for that Cause very much esteemed and cried up by the People as a good Patriot and one that couragiously stood up in defence of their Liberties and for the same cause was so much the more hated when afterwards he endeavoured to maintain the Royal and Just Aâ—thority of his Majesty B. How came he to change his mind so much as it seems he did A. After the Dissolution of that Parliament holden in the year 1627 and 1628 the King finding no Mony to be gotten from Parliaments which he was not to buy with the Blood of such Servants and Ministers as he loved best abstained a long time from calling any more and had abstained longer if the Rebellion of the Scotch had not forced him to it During that Parliament the King made Sir Thomas Wentworth a Baron recommended to him for his great ability which was generally taken notice of by the disservice he had done the King in former Parliaments but which might be usefull also for him in the times that came on and not long after that he made him of the Counsel and again Lieutenant of Ireland which place he discharged with great satisfaction and benefit to his Majesty and continued in that Office till by the Envy and Violence of the Lords and Commons of that unlucky Parliament of 1640. he died in which year he was made General of the Kings Forces against the Scotch that then entred into England and the year before Earl of Strafford The Pacification being made and the Forces on both sides Disbanded and the Parliament at Westminster now Sitting It was not long before the House of Commons accused him to the House of Lords of High Treason B. There was no great probability of his being a Traitor to the King from whose favour he had received his greatness and from whose Protection he 〈◊〉 to expect his safety What was the Treason they laid to his Charge A. Many Articles were drawn up against him but the summ of them was contained in these two First That he had traiterously endeavour'd to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realm and instead thereof to introduce an Arbitrary and Tyranical Government against Law Secondly That he had laboured to subvert the Rights of Parliaments and the Antient course of Parliamentary Proceedings B. Was this done by him without the knowledge of the King A. No. B. Why then if it were Treason did not the King himself call him in Question by his Attorney What had the House of Commons to do without his Command to accuse him to the House of Lords They might have complain'd to the King if he had not known it before I understand not this Law A. Nor I. B. Had this been by any former Statutes made Treason A. Not that I ever heard of nor do I understand that any thing can be Treason against the King that the King hearing and knowing does not think Treason But it was a piece of that Parliaments Artifice to put the word Traiterously to any Article exhibited against a man whose life they meant to take away B. Was there no particular Instance of action or words out of which they argued that endeavour of his to subvert the fundamental Laws of Parliament whereof they accused him A. Yes they said he gave the King Counsel to reduce the Parliament to their duty by the Irish Army which not long before my Lord of Strafford himself had caused to be leavied there for the Kings service but it was never proved against him that he advised the King to make use of it against the Parliament B. What are those Laws that are called fundamental for I understand not how one Law can be more fundamental than another except only that Law of Nature that binds us all to obey him whosoever he be whom lawfully and for our own safety wee have promised to obey nor any other fundamental Law to a King but Salus Populi The safety and well being of his People A. This Parliament in the use of these words when they accused any Man never regarded the signification of them but the weight they had to aggravate their accusation to the Ignorant multitudes which think all faults heinous that are exprest in heinous termes If they hate the Reason accused as they did this Man not only for being of the Kings party but also for deserting the Parliaments party as an Apostate B. I pray you tell me also what they meant by Arbitrary Government which they seemed so much to hate Is there any Governour of a People in the World that is forced to Govern them or forced to make this and that Law whether he will or no! I think or if any be that forces him does certainly make Laws and Govern Arbitrarily A. That is true and the true meaning of the Parliament was that not the King but they themselves should have the Arbitrary Government not only of England but of Ireland and as it appeared by the event of Scotland also B. How the King came by the Government of Scotland and Ireland By descent of his Ancesters every body can tell but if the King of England and his heirs should chance which God-forbid to fail I cannot imagine what Title the Parliament of England can acquire thereby to either of those Nations A. Yet they say they have been conquered Antiently by the English Subjects Money B. Like enough and suitable to the rest of their Impudence A. Impudence In Democratical Assemblies does almost all that is done 'T is the Goddess of Rhetorick and carries on proof with it for ought ordinary Man will not from so great boldness of Affirmation conclude there is great boldness of affirmation conclude there is great probability in the King affirmed upon this accusation he was brought to his Tryal at Westminster hall before the House of Lords and found guilty and presently after declared a Traytor by a Bill of attainder that is by Act of Parliament B. It is a strange thing that the Lords should be induced upon so light Grounds to give â— sentence or give their assent to a Bill so prejudicial to themselves and their posterity A. 'T was not well done and yet as it seems not ignorantly for there is a clause in the Bill that it should not be taken hereafter
but his Trial and Execution were deferred a long time till January 10. 1643. for the entertainment of the Scots that were come into England to aid the Parliament B. Why did the Scots think there was so much danger in the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury he was not a Man of War nor a Man able to bring an Army into the Field but he was perhaps a very great Politician A. That did not appear by any remarkable events of his Councils I never heard but he was a very honest man for his Morals and a very zealous promoter of the Church Government by Bishops and that he desired to have the Service of God performed and the House of God adorned as suitably as was possible to the honour we ought to do to the Divine Majesty But to bring as he did into the State his Former Controversies I mean his squablings in the University about Free Will and his standing upon Punctilio's concerning the Service-Book and its Rubricks was not in my opinion an Argument of his sufficiency in Affairs of State About the same time they passed an Act which the King consented to for a Triennial Parliament wherein was Enacted That after the present Parliament there should be a Parliament call'd by the King within the space of three years and so from three years to three years to meet at Westminster upon a certain day named in the Act. B. But what if the King did not call it finding it perhaps inconvenient or Hurtfull to to the Safety or Peace of his People which God hath put into his Charge for I do not well comprehend how any Soveraign can well keep a People in order when his hands are tiâ—d or when he hath any other Obligation upon him than the benefit of those he Governs And at this time for any thing you told me they acknowledged the King for their Sovereign A. I know not but such was the Act And it was farther Enacted That if the King did it not by his own Command then the Lord Chancellour or the Lord Keeper for the time being should send out the Writs of Summons And if the Chancellour refused then the Sheriffs of the several Counties of themselves at the next County Courts before the day set down for the Parliaments meeting should proceed to the Election of the Members for the said Parliament B. But what if the Sheriffs refused A. I think they were to be sworn to it but for that and other particulars I refer you to the Act. B. To whom should they be sworn when there is no Parliament A. No doubt but to the King whether there be a Parliament sitting or no. B. Then the K. may Release them of their Oath A. Besides They obtained of the King the putting down the Star Chamber and the High Commission Courts B. Besides If the King upon the refusal should fall upon them in Anger Who shall the Parliament not sitting Protect either the Chancellor or the Sheriffs in their Disobedience A. I pray you do not ask me any Reason of such things I understand no better than you I tell you only an Act passed to that purpose and was Sâ—gned by the King in the middle of February a little before the Arch Bishop was sent to the Tower Besides this Bill the two Houses of Parliament agreed upon another wherein it was Enacted That the present Parliament would continue till both the Houses did consent to the Dissolution of it which Bill also the King Signed the same day he Signed the Warrant for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford B. What a great Progress made the Parliament towards the ends of the most seditious Members of both Houses in so little time They sat down in November and now it was May in this space of time which is but half a year they won from the King the Adhearance which was due to him from his People they drove his faithfullest Servants from him beheaded the Earl of Strafford Imprisoned the Arch Bishop of Canterbury obtained a Triennial Parliament after their Own dissolution and a continuance of their own sitting as long as they listed which last a mounted to a total extinction of the Kings right in case that such a grant were vaild which I think it is not unless the soveraignty it self be in plain termes renounced which it was not but what money by way of subsidue or otherwise did they grant the King in recompence of all these his large concessions A. None at all but often promised they would make him the most glorious King that ever was in England which were words that passed well enough for wel meaning with the common People B. But the Parliament was contented now for I cannot imagine what they should desire more from the King than he had now granted them A Yes they desired the whole and absolute soveraignty and to change the Monarchical government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the soveraignty for the present and shortly after to lay the house of Lords aside for this was the design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by Divine right the onely Lawful governers of the Church endeavoured to bring the same form of Government into the Civil state and as the spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so their Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than formerly they had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out gon by their own Disciples though not in malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a journey into Scotland to satisfy his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good wills that in case the Parliament here should levy Armes against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceived for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giveing away to the Aâ—olction of Episcopacy Yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments Quarrel but this was a Year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together pretend to A. It is a question of things so long past that they are now forgotten nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things only done sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what right they pretended B.
Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to cite all the Antient Authors that speake of the formes of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancesters the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftner unjust then otherwise and for those Saxons or Angels that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of a Common-wealth but only a League of Divers Petty German Lords and states such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the People for the Captains of the forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the Common People and Souldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to to be one That they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that they had a Right to oppose the Kings Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that Descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your Kings great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the Kings Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's Man or rather one of his great Men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part of the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some Discreet Men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of Shires and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign of Henry the third immediately after the mis behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were Descended most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and Fellow Kings till one was made King of them all and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to serve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his Great Council And as their Power decreased so the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the Kings Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there with them whilst the King had his Great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Souldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castle whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had Designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently lest it to the Chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got togeter a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a Design for the seizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The Manner of the Discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a Change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in
general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastize them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this Division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scotch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Councillors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the Power of Pressing and Ordering of Souldiers which Power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole Soveraignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25th of November and and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the Common People as much as if had been the most beloved of the Kings before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new Quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December the 2d the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succours for Ireland B. What Quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in Agitation to assert the power of Levying Pressing Souldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take from the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Soveraign Power for he that hath the Power of Levying and Commanding of the Souldiers has all other Rights of Soveraignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withall told them he took notice of the Bill in Agitation for Pressing of Souldiers and that he was content it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unreasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing what 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrelled at is another They quarrelled at this that His Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the Course of Parliament And also that he shewed himself displeased with those that propounded the third Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them Reparation against those by whose evil Council he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill then in debate in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a man should be lawfully in the company of men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same Company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his fellow-Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons But to make the King give up his Friends and Councillors to them to be put to Death Banishment or Imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon grew a kind of War between the Peers of Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able Men that were with the King For upon the 15th of December they sent to the King a Paper called a Remonstrance of the Sate of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published in the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown ripe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the Wisdom of the Parliament what Rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for the restoring and establishing the Antient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and Nation And of those Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said 1. Jesuits and Papists 2. The Bishops and part of the Clergy that cherish Formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Usurpation 3. Councillors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Forein Princes B. It may well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perhaps wickedly therefore I pray to tell me particularly what their Crimes were for methinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Supream Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King They made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accused thereof the Bishops Councillors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of Accusing the King himself and and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first They said they nourished Questions of Prerogatives and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to His Majesties Service they might get themselves into places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be call'd an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proof to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their End was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was that they endeavour'd to suppress the Purity and Power of Religion B. That 's Canting It is not in Mans power to suppress the Power of Religion A. They meant that they supprest the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very Foundation of their Parliaments Treacherous Pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants that meddle not with Disputes to the end they
might compose a body fit to Act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of Raising Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather spightful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon any odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a Condition he should cut off the heads of whom they pleased how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses to deny him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Soveraign Power to themselves which they would never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Council the King followed All those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them mis-liked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only to the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. First The Dissolution of his last Parliament at Oxford Secondly The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign Thirdly The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign Fourthly The fruitless Expedition against Cales Fifthly The Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatine's Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties Sixthly The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan Seventhly Raising of Ship-money Eighthly Enlargements of Forrests contrary to Magna-Charta Ninthly The Designment of Engrossing all the Gun-powder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London Tenthly A Design to bring in the Use of Brass-Money Eleventhly The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gaggs Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber Twelfthly The Displacing of Judges Thirteenthly The Illegal Acts of Council-Table Fourteenthly The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl-Marshal's Court. Fifteenthly The Abuses in Chancery Exchequer-Chamber and Court of Wards Sixteenthly The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices Seventeenthly The Insolence of Bishops and other Clarks in Suspensions Excommunications and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers Degraded Depraved or Excommunicated A. I cannot tell But I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers Eighteenthly The Excess of Severity of the High Commission-Court Nineteenthly The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty Quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by Printing it was communicated Again After the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self the Imprisoning some Members of both Houses a forced Loan of Money attempted in London the Continuance of the Convocation when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go current with common people for Mis-government and for faults of the King 's though some of them were Misfortunes and both the Mis-fortunes and the Mis-government if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary waies which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of Evils they have raised to make a shew of ill Government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 22000 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the Endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished Shipâ— money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-money That they supprest all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly sav'd by the Subject That they had quell'd Living Grievances meaning Evil Councillors and Actors by the Death of my Lord Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and Judges that they had past a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to Dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the summe of all those things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Council A. They reckoned also putting down of the High Commission and the abating of the Power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts the taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms business A. The Good they had done the King was first they said the giving of 25000 l. a month for the Relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of Relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England B. Yes In the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament call'd in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarter was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great Impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the Charge of Paying the Army that was
raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accompts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill Such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and publick Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lions Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Commons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus Tyraniâ—e over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they Tyranize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Committee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time tâ—e Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Perition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the Kings Assent and in the beginning of Sept. after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the Kings Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower-House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democrasie and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourably laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole world What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls
thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the Chief Men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his Life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the Custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the begining is establisht amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after But the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings for the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him die for that the gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him with men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispute against those unnecessary Commands as being educated under an old and indelible Custom are content to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his Breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with souldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so But were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the Command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before that they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen People but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the People For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting the knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldaeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear Experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenents of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine lookt with an ill aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accused the Lord Kimbolton a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslâ—rig Hampden Prinn and Stroud Five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies the other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five seditious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to Command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Members of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing petitions in a Tumultary Manner by great Multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the
a Guard for his Person in Yorkshire and the Parliament thereupon having Voted That the King intended to make War upon his Parliament gave Order for the Mustering and Exercising the People in Arms and published Propositions to invite and encourage them to bring in either ready Money or Plate or to promise under their hands to maintain certain numbers of Horse Horsemen and Arms for the defence of the King and Parliament meaning by King as they had formerly declar'd not his Person but his Laws promising to repay their Money with Interest of 8 l. in the hundred and the value of their Plate with 12 d. the ounce for the fashion On the other side the King came to Nottingham and there did set up his Standard Royal and sent out Commissioners of Array to call those to him which by the ancient Laws of England were bound to serve him in the Wars Upon this occasion there passed divers Declarations between the King and Parliament concerning the Legality of this Array which are too long to tell you at this time B. Nor do I desire to hear any Mooting about this Question for I think that general Law of Salus Populi and the Right of defending himself against those that had taken from him the Sovereign Power are sufficient to make Legal whatsoever he should do in order to the recovery of his Kingdom or the punishing of the Rebels A. In the mean time the Parliament raised an Army and made the Earl of Essex General thereof by which Act they declar'd what they meant formerly when they Petition'd the King for a Guard to be commanded by the said Earl of Essex And now the King sends out his Proclamations forbidding Obedience to the Orders of the Parliament concerning the Militia and the Parliament send out Orders against the Executions of the Commissions of Array hitherto though it were a War before yet there was no Blood shed they shot at one another nothing but Paper B. I understand now how the Parliament destroy'd the Peace of the Kingdom and how easily by the help of seditious Presbyterian Ministers and of ambitious ignorant Orators they reduced the Government into Anarchy but I believe it will be a harder task for them to bring in Peace again and settle the Government either in themselves or in any other Governor or form of Government for granting that they obtain'd the Victory in this War they must be beholding for it to the Valor good Conduct or Felicity of those to whom they give the Command of their Armies especially to the General whose good success will without doubt bring with it the love and admiration of the Soldiers so that it will be in his power either to take the Government upon himself or to place it where himself thinks good In which Case if he take it not to himself he will be thought a Fool and if he do he shall be sure to have the Envy of his subordinate Commanders who will look for a share either in the present Government or in the Succession to it for they will say has he obtain'd this Power by his own without our Danger Valor and Council And must we be his Slaves whom we have thus rais'd Or is not there as much Justice on our side against him as was on his side against the King A. They will and did insomuch that the reason why Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute Power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children his Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a Single Person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scotch with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their assistance but to enter into the particular Narrative of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting B. WE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in such a course and what hopes He had of Money Men Arms Fortified Places Shipping Council and Military Offices sufficient for such an Enterprize against the Parliament that had Men and Money as much at Command as the City of London and other Corporation Towns were able to furnish which was more than they needed And for the Men they should set forth for Soldiers they were almost all of them spightfully bent against the King and his whole Party whom they took to be either Papists or Flatterers of the King or that had design'd to raise their Fortunes by the Plunder of the City and other Corporation Towns and though I believe not that they were more valiant than other Men nor that they had so much experience in the War as to be accounted good Soldiers yet they had that in them which in time of Battel is more conducing to Victory than Valor and Experience both together and that was Spight And for Arms they had in their hands the chief Magazines the Tower of London and Kingston upon Hull besides most of Powder and Shot that lay in several Towns for the use of the Trained Bonds Fortified places there were not many then in England and most of them in the hands of the Parliament The King's Fleet was wholly in their Command under the Earl of Warwick Councillors they needed no more than such as were of their own Body so that the King was every way inferior to them except it were perhaps in Officers A. I cannot compare their chief Officers for the Parliament the Earl of Essex after the Parliament had Voted the War was made General of all their Forces both in England and Ireland from whom all other Commanders were to receive their Commissions B. What moved them to make the Earl of Essex General And for what cause was the Earl of Essex so displeased with the King as to accept that Office A. I do not certainly know what to answer to either of those Questions but the Earl of Essex had been in the Wars abroad and wanted neither Experience Judgment nor Courage to perform such an undertaking and besides that you
have heard I believe how great a Darling of the people his Father had been before him and what Honour he had gotten by the success of his Enterprize upon Cales and in some other Military actions To which I may add That this Earl himself was not held by the People to be so great a Favourite at Court as that they might not trust him with their Army against the King and by this you may perhaps conjecture the cause for which the Parliament made choice of him for General B. But why did they think him discontented with the Court A. I know not that nor indeed that he was so he came to Court as other Noblemen did when occasion was to wait upon the King but had no Office till a little before this time to oblige him to be there continually but I believe verily that the unfortunateness of his Marriage had so discountenanced his Conversation with Ladies that the Court could be his proper Element unless he had had some extraordinary savour there to balance that calamity for particular discontent from the King or intention of revenge for any supposed disgrace I think he had none nor that he was any wayes addicted to Presbyterian Doctrines or other Fanatick Tenets in Church or State saving only that he was carried away with the stream in a manner of the whole Nation to think that England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy not considering that the Supreme Power must alwayes be absolute whether it be in the King or in the Parliament B. Who was General of the Kings Army A. None yet but Himself nor indeed had He yet any Army but there coming to him at that time two Nephews the Princes Rupert and Maurice He put the Command of His Horse into the hands of Prince Rupert a Man then whom no man living has a better courage nor was more active and diligent in prosecuting his Commission and though but a young Man then was not without experience in the conducting of Soldiers as having been an Actor in part of his Fathers Wars in Germany B. But how would the King find money to pay such an Army as was necessary for Him against the Parliament A. Neither the King nor Parliament had much money at that time in their own hands but were fain to relie upon the Benevolence of those that took their parts wherein I confess the Parliament had a mighty great advantage those that helped the King in that kind were only Lords and Gentlemen which not approving the proceedings of the Parliament were willing to undertake the payment every one of a certain number of Horse which cannot be thought any very great assistance the persons that payed them being so few for other Monies that the King then had I have not heard of any but what he borrow'd upon Jewels in the Low-Countries whereas the Parliament had a very plentiful Contribution not only from London but generally from their Faction in all other places of England upon certain Propositions published by the Lords and Commons in June 1642. at which time they had newly Voted That the King intended to make War upon them for bringing in of Money or Plate to maintain Horse and Horsemen and to buy Arms for the preservation of the Publick Peace and for the defence of the King and both Houses of Parliament for the Re-payment of which Money and Plate they were to have the Publick Faith B. What Publick Faith is there when there is no Publick What is it that can be call'd Publick in a Civil War without the King A. The Truth is the Security was nothing worth but serv'd well enough to gull those seditious Blockheads that were more fond of change than either of their peace or profit having by this means gotten Contributions from those that were the well-affected to their Cause they made use of it afterwards to force the like Contribution from others for in November following they made an Ordinance for Assessing also of those that had not Contributed then or had Contributed but not proportionably to their Estates And yet this was contrary to what the Parliâ—ment promised and declar'd in the Propositions themselves for they declar'd in the first Proposition That no mans Affection should be measured by the prâ—portion of his Offer so that he expressed his good will to the Service in any proportion whatsoever Besides this in the beginning of March following they made an Ordinance to Levy weekly a great Sum of money upon every County City Town Place and Person of any Estate almost in England which weekly Sum as may appear by the Ordinance it self printed and published in March 1642 by Order of both Houses comes to almost 33000 l. and consequently to above 1700000 l. for the year They had besides all this the Profits of the King's Lands and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which they took to themselves a year or a little more after B. Seeing then the Parliament had such advantage of the King in Money Arms and multitude of Men and had in their hands the King's Fleet I cannot imagine what hope the King could have either of Victory unless He resign'd into their hands the Sovereignty or subsisting for I cannot well believe He had any advantage of them either in Councillors Conducts or in the Resolution of his Soldiers A. On the contrary I think He had also some disadvantage in that for though He had as good Officers at least as any then serv'd the Parliament yet I doubt He had not so useful Council as was necessary And for His Soldiers though they were Men as stout as theirs yet because their Valor was not sharpned so with Malice as theirs was of the other side they sought not so keenly as their Enemies did amongst whom there was a great many London Apprentices who for want of experience in the War would have been fearful enough of death and wounds approaching visibly in glittering Swords but for want of judgment scarce thought of such a death as comes invisibly in a Bullet and therefore were very hardly to be driven out of the Field B. But what fault do you find in the King's Councils Lords and other Persons of Quality and Experience A. Only that fault which was generally in the whole Nation which was That they thought the Government of England was not an absolute but a mixt Monarchy and that if the King should clearly subdue this Parliament that His power would be what He pleased and theirs as little as He pleased which they counted Tyranny This opinion though it did not lesâ—en their endeavors to gain the Victory for the King in a Battel when the Battel could not be avoided yet it weakned their endeavors to procure him an absolute
this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the Two Houses pleas'd But now that the War was resolv'd on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writings A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in Print to make the people know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of His own Commissions of Array and the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the people the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend Himself and His Right though there had been no other Title for it but His own preservation and that the name of Commission of Array had never been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a Man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts of Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great Reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudg'd which they call Precedents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good Patriots and wise Statesmen B. What was this Commission of Array A. King William the Conqueror had gotten into his hands by Victory all the Lands in England of which he disposed some part as Forests and Chaces for his own Recreation and some part to Lords and Gentlemen that had assisted him or were to assist him in the Wars upon which he laid a charge of service in his Wars some with more Men and some with less according to the Lands he had given them whereby when the King sent Men unto them with Commission to make use of their Service they were obliged to appear with Arms and to accompany the King to the Wars for a certain time at their own Charges and such were the Commissions by which this King did then make his Levies B. Why then was it not Legal A. No doubt but it was Legal but what did that amount to with Men that were already resolv'd to acknowledge for Law nothing that was against their design of abolishing Monarchy and placing a sovereign and absolute Arbitrary power in the House of Commons B. To destroy Monarchy and set up the House of Commons are two Businesses A. They found it so at last but did not think it so then B. Let us come now to the Military power A. I intended only the Story of their Injustice Impudence and Hypocrisie therefore for the proceeding of the War I refer you to the History thereof written at large in English I shall only make use of such a Thread as is necessary for the filling up of such Knavery and Folly also as I shall observe in their several Actions From York the King went to Hull where was His Magazine of Arms for the Northern Parts of England to try if they would admit Him the Parliament had made Sir John Hotham Governor of the Town who caused the Gates to be shut and presenting himself upon the walls flatly denied Him entrance for which the King caused him to be proclaim'd Traytor and sent a Message to the Parliament to know if they own'd the Actions B. Upon what grounds A. Their pretence was this That neither this nor any other Town in England was otherwise the Kings than in Trust for the People of England B. But what was that to the Parliament A. Yes say they for we are the Representative of the People of England B. I cannot see the force of this Argument We represent the People Ergo all that the People has is ours The Mayor of Hull did represent the King Is therefore all the King had in Hull the Mayor's The People of England may be represented with Limitations as to deliver a Petition or the like does it follow that they who deliver the Petition have Right to all the Towns in England When began this Parliament to be a Representative of England Was it not November 3. 1640 Who was it the day before that had the Right to keep the King out of Hull and possess it for themselves For there was then no Parliament whose was Hull then A. I think it was the King's not only because it was called the King's Town upon Hull but because the King Himself did then and ever represent the Person of the People of England If He did not who then did the Parliament having no Being B. They might perhaps say the People had then no Representative A. Then there was no Commonwealth and consequently all the Towns of England being the Peoples you and I and any Man else might have put in for his share You may see by this what weak People they were that were carried into the Rebellion by such weak reasoning as this Parliament used and how impudent they were that did put such Fallacies upon them B. Surely they were such as were esteem'd the wisest Men in England being upon that account chosen to be the Parliament A. And were they also esteem'd the wisest Men of England that chose them B. I cannot tell that for I know it is usual with the Freeholders in the Counties and the Tradesmen in the Cities and Burroughs to choose as near as they can such as are most repugnant to the giving of Subsidies A. The King in the beginning of August after He had summon'd Hull and tryed some of the Counties thereabout what they would do for Him set up His Standard at Nottingham but there came not in thither Men enough to make any Army sufficient to give Battel to the Earl of Essex From thence He went to Shrewsbury where He was quickly furnished and appointing the Earl of Linsâ—y to be General He resolv'd to march towards London The Earl of Essex was at Worcester with the Parliament Army making no offer to stop Him in His passage but as soon as He was gone by marched close after Him The King therefore to avoid being inclosed between the Army of the Earl of Essex and the City of London turned upon him and gave him Battel at Edge-hill where though He got not an intire Victory yet He had the better if either had the better and had certainly the fruit of a Victory which was to march on in his intended way towards London in which
the next morning He took Banbury Castle and from thence went to Oxford and thence to Brentford where he gave a great Defeat to Three Regiments of the Parliaments Forces and so return'd to Oxford B. Why did not the King go on from Brentford A. The Parliament upon the first notice of the King 's marching from Shrewsbury caused all the Trained Bands and the Auxiliaries of the City of London which were so frighted as to shut up all their shops to be drawn forth so that there was a complete and numerous Army ready for the Earl of Essex that was crept into London just at that time to head it and this was it that made the King retire to Oxford In the beginning of February after Prince Ruport took Cirencester from the Parliament with many Prisoners and many Arms for it was newly made a Magazine And thus stood the business between the King 's and the Parliaments Forces The Parliament in the mean time caused a Line of Communication to be made about London and the Suburbs of 12 miles in compass and constituted a Committee for the Assotiation and the putting into a posture of defence the Counties of Essex Cambridge Suffolk and some others and one of those Commissioners was Oliver Cromwel from which employment he came to his following greatness B. What was done during this time in other Parts of the Countrey A. In the West the Earl of Stamford had the employment of putting in execution the Ordinance of Parliament for the Militia and Sir Ralph Hopton for the King executed the Commission of Array Between those two was fought a Battel at Liscard in Cornwal where Sir Ralph Hopton had the Victory and presently took a Town called Saltash with many Arms and much Ordnance and many Prisoners Sir William Waller in the mean time seized Winchester and Chichester for the Parliament In the North for the Commission of Array my Lord of Newcastle and for the Militia of the Parliament was my Lord Fairfax My Lord of Newcastle took from the Parliament Tadcaster in which were a great part of the Parliaments Forces for that County and had made himself in a manner Master of all the North about this time that is to say in February the Queen landed at Barlington and was conducted by my Lord of Newcastle and the Marquis of Montross to York and not long after to the King Divers other little advantages besides these had the King's Party of the Parliaments in the North. There hapned also between the Militia of the Parliament the Commission of Array in Staffordshire under my Lord Brook for the Parliament and my Lord of Northampton for the King great contention wherein both these Commanders were slain for my Lord Brook besieging Lichfield-Close was kill'd with a shot notwithstanding which they gave not over the Siege till they were Masters of the Close But presently after my Lord of Northampton besieged it again for the King which to relieve Sir William Brereston and Sir John Gell advanced towards Lichfield and were met at Hopton-heath by the Earl of Northampton and routed the Earl himself was slain but his Forces with Victory return'd to the Siege again and shortly after seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Countrey carried the place These were the chief Actions of this year 164â— wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army insomuch that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when He had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put Him in hope of Victory that this year take it altogether was very prosperous B. But what great Folly or Wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that point will be excus'd with the pretext of War and come under one Name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was alwayes in the Name of the King and Parliament The King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was alwayes vertually in the Two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between His Person Natural and Politique which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it For this was but an University Quibble such as Boyes make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tenets as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they sollicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the power of the Earl of Newcastle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliament Forces were at this time inferior to the Kings and most Men thought that if the Earl of Newcastle had then marched Southward and joined his Forces with the Kings that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of Newcastle's power in the North grown formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to Compliment them in the mean time made a Covenant among themselves such as the Scots before had made against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church-windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a Solemn League with the Nation which was called The Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Foreigners as the Irish seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scotch Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discern'd their design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a Bestial Incivility it was of theirs That they Voted the Queen a Traytor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and Men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless And that nothing could satisfie them but the Deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in His place A. Yes very possible for who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the Two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no Peace was above their
and the treacherous divisions growing now among themselves had driven them to relie upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the King's Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left Him to raise another therefore after the Battel he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much increasing His number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leicester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon honorable Conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of Wales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646. General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford in the mean time Rainsburrough who besieged Woodstock had it surrender'd The King therefore who was now also return'd to Oxford from whence Woodstock is but six miles not doubting but that He should there by Fairfax be besieg'd and having no Army to relieve Him resolv'd to get away disguised to the Scotch Army about Newark and thither he came the 4th of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried Him with them to Newcastle whither He came May the 13th B. Why did the King trust Himself with the Scots They were the first that Rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e. cruel Besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell Him to His Enemies for money And lastly They were too weak to defend Him or keep Him in their Countrey A. What could He have done better for He had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them Propositions of Peace it was denied He sent again it was denied again Then He desir'd He might come to them in Person this also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but instead of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in the case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Force they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with Him and to secure i. e. to imprison His Person from danger If the King had adventur'd to come and had been imprison'd what would the Parliament have done with Him They had dethron'd Him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while He liv'd though in Prison it may be they would not have put Him to death by a High Court of Justice publickly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd Him that not only His Majesty but also His Friends that should come with Him should be in their Army safe not only for their Persons but also for their Honours and Consciences 'T is a pretty Trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the onely way to a setled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir Walter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to Treat And when they said No why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The Propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some Exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive Him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very Covetousness Cowardize Perjury and Treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but Baseness and Falseness besides their Folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest â—f the King's Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by Order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expir'd B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtile for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few Men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he began to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scotland by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a Game at Cards without fighting all the years 1647. and 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the Divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the
the Lord Capel the Earl of Norwich and Sir John Owen whereof as I mention'd before the first three were beheaded This affrighted divers of the Kings Party out of the Land for not only they but all that had born Arms for the King were at that time in very great danger of their lives for it was put to the question by the Army at a Council of War whether they should be all massacred or no where the No's carried it but by two Voices Lastly March 24. they put the Mayor of London out of his Office fined him two thousand pound disfranchised him and condemn'd him to two Months imprisonment in the Tower for refusing to proclaim the Act for abolishing of the Kingly Power And thus ended the year 1648. and the Monthly Fast God having granted that which they fasted for the Death of the King and the possession of his Inheritance By these their proceedings they had already lost the hearts of the generality of the people and had nothing to trust to but the Army which was not in their power but in Cromwel's who never fail'd when there was occasion to put them upon all Exploits that might make them odious to the people in order to his future dissolving them whensoever it should conduce to his ends In the beginning of 1649. the Scots discontented with the proceedings of the Rump against the late King began to levy Souldiers in order to a new Invasion of England The Irish Rebels for want of timely resistance from England were grown terrible and the English Army at home infected by the Adjutators began to cast about how to share the Land among the Godly meaning themselves and such others as they pleas'd who were therefore called Levellers Also the Rump for the present were not very well provided of Money and therefore the first thing they did was the laying of a Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the Maintenance of the Army B. Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Souldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London feasted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Doctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelvemonth that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorislaus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this time came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton
an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Latine both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man so like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act which runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by to Authority thereof That the People of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words You shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the loyal Party forbidding every one of them to depart more than five Miles from his dwelling-house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his now Majesty's Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army And these were the main things that passed this year The Marquess of Montross that had in the year 1645. with a few men and in a little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the Year 1650. in the North of Scotland with Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good service as he had formerly done his Father but the case was alter'd for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly rais'd Besides the Souldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the High-landers come in to him as he expected insomuch as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spiteful usage than revenge requir'd Executed by the Covenanters at Edinborough May the 2d B. What good could the King expect from joyning with these men who during the Treaty discover'd so much malice to him in one of his best Subjects A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much to this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father if they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his Right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe the Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure where ever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosses death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertis'd that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his Design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return But for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcom'd by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so Catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refus'd to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that point And thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another step to the Soveraign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over he landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edinborough though all things was not yet well agreed upon between the Scots and him for he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refus'd In fine they agreed but would not suffer the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was their Prisoner A. Cromwel from Berwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no Quarrel against the people of Scotland but against the Malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battel To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the Kings Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to Gods people in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King were not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they reign 't is God that reigns and no where else But I observe one strange
demand that the King should acknowledge the sins of his House for I thought it had been certain from all Divines that no man was bound to acknowledge any mans sins but his own A. The King having yielded to all that the Church requir'd the Scots proceeded in their intended War Cromwel marched on to Edinborough provoking them all he could to Battel which they declining and provisions growing scarce in the English Army Cromwel retir'd to Dunbar despairing of success and intending by Sea or Land to get back into England And such was the condition which this General Cromwel so much magnified for Conduct had brought his Army to that all his Glories had ended in shame and punishment if Fortune's and the faults of his Enemies had not reliev'd him for as he retir'd the Scots followed him close all the way till within a mile of Dunbar There is a ridge of Hills that from beyond Edinborough goes winding to the Sea and crosses the High-way between Dunbar and Barwick at a Village called Copperspeith where the passage is so difficult that if the Scots had sent timely thither a very few men to guard it the English could never have passed for the Scots kept the Hills and needed not have â—ought but upon great advantage and were almost two to one Cromwel's Army was at the Foot of those Hills on the North side and there was a great Ditch or Channel of a Torrent between the Hills and it so that he could never have got home by Land nor without utter ruine of the Army attempted to ship it nor have stayed where he was for want of provisions Now Cromwel knowing the Pass was free and commanding a good Party of Horse and Foot to possess it it was necessary for the Scots to let them go whom they brag'd they had impounded or else to fight and therefore with the best of their Horse charged the English and made them at first to shrink a little but the English Foot coming on the Scots were put to flight and the flight of their Horse hindred the Foot from engaging who therefore fled as did also the rest of their Horse Thus the folly of the Scotish Commanders brought all these odds to an even lay between two small and equal Parties wherein Fortune gave the Victory to the English who were not many more in number than those that were killed and taken Prisoners of the Scots and the Church lost their Cannon Bag and Baggage with 10000 Arms and almost their whole Army the rest were got together by Lesby to Sterling B. This Victory hapned well for the King for had the Scots been Victors the Presbyterians both there and here would have domineer'd again and the King been in the same condition his Father was in at Newcastle in the hands of the Scotish Army For in pursuit of this Victory the English at last brought the Scots to a pretty good habit of obedience for the King whensoever he should recover his Right A. In pursuit of this Victory the English marched to Edinborrough quitted by the Scots fortified Leith and took in all the strength and Castles they thought fit on this side the Frith which now was become the Bounds betwixt the two Nations and the Scotch Ecclesiasticks began to know themselves better and resolved in their new Army which they meant to raise to admit some of the Royalists into Command Cromwel from Edinborrough march'd towards Sterling to provoke the Enemy to fight but finding danger in it returned to Edinborrough and besieged the Castle In the mean time he sent a Party into the West of Scotland to suppress Strangham and Kerr two great Presbyterians that were there levying of Forces for their new Army And in the same time the Scots Crowned the King at Schone The rest of this year was spent in Scotland on Cromwel's part in taking of Edinburrough Castle and in attempts to pass the Frith or any other ways to get over to the Scotish Forces and on the Scots part in hastening their Levies for the North. B. What did the Rump at home during this time A. They voted Liberty of Conscience to the Sectaries that is they pluckt out the sting of Presbytery which consisted in a severe imposing of odd Opinions upon the people impertinent to Religion but conducing to the advancement of the power of the Presbyterian Ministers Also they levyed more Souldiers and gave the Command of them to Harrison now made Major General a Fifth-Monarchy man and of those Souldiers two Regiments of Horse and one of Foot were raised by the Fifth-Monarchy men and other Sectaries in thankfulness for this their liberty from the Presbyterian Tyranny Also they pull'd down the late Kings Statue in the Exchange and in the place where it stood caused to be written these words Exit Tyrannus Regum ultimus c. B. What good did that do them and why did they not pull down the Statues of all the rest of the Kings A. What account can be given of actions that proceed not from Reason but spight and such like passions Besides this they received Ambassadors from Portugal and Spain acknowledging their Power And in the very end of the year they prepared an Ambassador to the Netherlands to offer them friendship All they did besides was persecuting and executing of Royalists In the beginning of the Year 1651. General Dean arrived in Scotland and on the 11th of April the Scotish Parliament assembled and made certain Acts in order to a better uniting of themselves and better obedience to the King who was now at Sterling with the Scotish Forces he had expecting more now in levying Cromwel from Edinborough went divers times to Sterling to provoke them to fight There was no Ford there to pass over his men At last Boats being come from London and Newcastle Colonel Overton though it were long first for it was now July transported 1400 Foot of his own besides another Regiment of Foot and four Troops of Horse and intrencht himself at North-Ferry on the other side and before any help could come from Sterling Major General Lambert also was got over with as many more by this time Sir John Brown was come to oppose them with 4500 men whom the English there defeated killing about 2000 aud taking Prisoners 1600. This done and as much more of the Army transported as was thought fit Cromwel comes before St. Johnston's from whence the Scotish Parliament upon news of his passing the Frith was removed to Dundee and summons it and the same day had news brought him that the King was marching from Sterling towards England which was true but notwithstanding the King was three days march before him he resolved to have the Town before he followed him and accordingly had it the next day by surrender B. What hopes had the King in coming into England having before and behind him none at least none armed but his Enemies A. Yes there was before him the City of London which
should not have it without paying for it Secondly That the English should have free Trade from Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly They demanded amends for the old but never-to-be-forgotten business of Amboyna so that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their proffer'd Friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadours affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to Ingross all Traffick and a false Estimate of our and their own Strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though these Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The Persecution of Royalists also still continued among whom was beheaded one M. Love for holding Correspondence with the King B. I had thought Presbyterian Ministers whilst they are such could not be Royalists because they think their Assembly have the Supreme Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traytors A. You may think so still for though I called Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one act for which he was condemned It was he who during the Treaty at Uxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said It was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the Kings Enemies Cromwel and his Phanaticks for their own not for the Kings sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of Newcastle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two Negatives make an Affirmative so two Treasons make Loyalty This Year also were reduced to the obedience of the Rump the Islands of Scilly and Man and the Barbado's and St. Christophers One thing fell out that they liked not which was that Cromwel gave them warning to determine their sitting according to the Bill for Triennial Parliaments B. That I think was harsh A. In the year 1652. May 14. began the Dutch War in this manner three Dutch Men of War with divers Merchants from the Straights being discovered by one Captain Young who commanded some English Frigats the said Young sent to their Admiral to bid him strike his Flag a thing usually done in acknowledgment of the English Dominion in the Narrow Seas which accordingly he did Then came up the Vice-Admiral and being called so as the other was to take down his Flag he answered plainly he would not but after the exchange of four or five Broadsides and mischief done on either part he took it down but Captain Young demanded also either the Vice-Admiral himself or his Ship to make satisfaction for the dammage already sustained To which the Vice-Admiral answered that he had taken in his Flag but would defend himself and his Ship whereupon Captain Young consulting with the Captains of his other Ships lest the beginning of the War in this time of Treaty should be charged upon himself and night also coming on thought fit to proceed no farther B. The War certainly began at this time but who began it A. The Dominion of the Sea belonging to the English there can be no question but the Dutch began it and that the said Dominion belonged to the English it was confest at first by the Admiral himself peaceably and at last by the Vice-Admiral taking in their Flags About a Fortnight after there happened another Fight upon the like occasion upon Tromp with 42 Men of War who came back to the back of Godwin-Sands Major Bourn being then with a few of the Parliament's Ships in the Downs and Blake with the rest farther Westward and sent two Captains of his to Bourn to excuse his coming thither To whom Bourn returned this answer that the Message was civil but that it might appear real he ought to depart So Tromp departed meaning now Bourn was satisfied to sail towards Blake and he did so but so did also Bourn for fear of the worst When Tromp and Blake were near one another Blake made a shot over Tromp's Ship as a warning to him to take in his Flag This he did thrice and then Tromp gave him a Broad-side and so began the Fight at the beginning whereof Bourn came in and lasted from two a Clock till night the English having the better and the Flag as before making the quarrel B. What need is there when both Nations were heartily resolved to fight to stand so much upon this Complement of who should begin For as to the gaining of Friends and Confederates thereby I think 't is in vain seeing Princes and States on such occasions look not much upon the Justice of their Neighbours but upon their own concernment in the Event A. It is commonly so but in this case the Dutch knowing the Dominion of the Narrow Seas to be a gallant Title and envied by all the Nations that reach the Shore and consequently that they were likely to oppose it did wisely enough in making this point the state of the quarrel After this Fight the Dutch Ambassadors residing in England sent a Paper to the Council of State wherein they stiled this last Encounter a rash action and affirmed it was done without the knowledge and against the will of their Lords the States General and desired them that nothing might be done upon it in heat which might become irreparable The Parliament hereupon voted First That the States General should pay the Charges they were at and for the Dammages they sustained upon this occasion Secondly That this being paid there should be a Cessation of all Acts of Hostility and a mutual Restitution of all Ships and Goods taken Thirdly And both these agreed so that there should be made a League between the two Common-wealths These Votes were sent to the Dutch Ambassadors in answer of the said Paper but with a Preamble setting forth the former kindnesses of England to the Netherlands and taking notice of their new Fleet of 150 Men of War without any other apparent Design than the Destruction of the English Fleet. B. What answer made the Dutch to this A. None Tromp sailed presently into Zealand and Blake with 70 Men of War to the Orkney-Islands to seize their Busses and to wait for five Dutch Ships from the East-Indies and Sir George Ascue newly return'd from the Barbados came into the Downs with fifteen Men of War where he was commanded to stay for a Recruit out of the Thames Tromp being recruited to 120 Sail made account to get in between Sir George Ascue and the Mouth of the River but was hindred so long by contrary Winds that the Merchants calling for his Convoy he could stay no longer and so he went
not sit in this House till farther Order of the Parliament And thus the Rump recover'd their Authority May the seventh 1659. which they lost in April 1653. B. Seeing there have been so many shiftings of the Supreme Authority I pray you for memories sake repeat them briefly in time and order A. First from 1640 to 1648. when the King was murthered the Soveraignty was disputed between King Charles the First and the Presbyterian Parliament Secondly From 1648. to 1653. The Power was in that part of the Parliament which voted the Tryel of the King and declar'd themselves without King or House of Lords to have the Supreme Authority of England and Ireland For there were in the Long-Parliament two Factions the Presbyterian and Independents The former whereof sought only subjection of the King nor his destruction directly the latter sought his destruction and this part is it which was called the Rump Thirdly From April the twentieth to July the fourth the Supreme Power was in the Hands of a Council of State constituted by Cromwel Fourthly From July the fourth to December the twelfth of the same year it was in the Hands of Men called unto it by Cromwel whom he termed men of Fidelity and Integrity and made them a Parliament which was called in contempt one of the Members Barebone's Parliament Fifthly From December the twelfth 1653 to September the third 1658. it was in the hands of Oliver Cromwel with the Title of Protector Sixthly From September 1658 to April the twenty fifth 1659. Richard Cromwel had it as Successor to his Father Seventhly From April the twenty fifth 1659 to May the seventh of the same year it was no where Eighthly From May the seventh 1659. the Rump which was turn'd out of Door 1653. recovered it again and shall lose it again to the Committee of Safety and again recover it and again lose it to the right Owner B. By whom and by what Art came the Rump to be turn'd out the second time A. One would think them safe enough the Army in Scotland which when it was in London had helped Oliver to pull down the Rump submitted now beg'd pardon and promis'd Obedience The Souldiers in Town had their pay mended and the Commanders every where took the old Engagement whereby they had acknowledged their Authority heretofore they also received their Commissions in the House it self from the Speaker who was Generalissimo Fleetwood was made Lieutenant-General with such and so many limitations as were thought necessary by the Rump that remembred how they had been serv'd by their General Oliver Also Henry Cromwel Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having resign'd his Commission by Command return'd into England But Lambert to whom as was said Oliver had promis'd the succession and as well as the Rump knew the way to the Protectorship by Olivers own foot-steps was resolv'd to proceed in it upon the first opportunity which presented it self presently after Besides some Plots of Royalists whom after the old fashion they again persecuted there was an Insurrection made against them by Presbyterians in Cheshire headed by Sir George Booth one of the secluded Members they were in number about three thousand and their pretence was for a Free-Parliament There was a great talk of another Rising or endeavour to Rise in Devonshire and Cornwal at the same time To suppress Sir George Booth the Rump sent down more then a sufficient Army under Lambert which quickly defeated the Cheshire party and recover'd Chester Leverpool and all the other places they had seized divers of their Commanders in and after the Battel were taken Prisoners whereof Sir George Booth himself was one This exploit done Lambert before his return caressed his Souldiers with an entertainment at his own House in York-shire and got their consent to a Petition to be made to the House that a General might be set up in the Army as being unfit that the Army should be judged by any Power extrinsick to it self B. I do not see that unfitness A. Nor I. But it was as I have heard an Action of Sir Henry Vane's But it so much displeased the Rump that they Voted that the having of more General 's in the Army than were already setled was unnecessary burthensome and dangerous to the Common-Wealth B. This was not Oliver's Method for though this Cheshire Victory had been as glorious as that of Oliver at Dunbar yet it was not the Victory that made Oliver General but the Resignation of Fairfax and the proffer of it to Cromwel by the Parliament A. But Lambert thought so well of himself 〈◊〉 to expect it therefore at his return to London he and other Officers assembling at Wallingford-house drew their Petition into form and called it a Representation wherein the Chief point was to have a General with many other of less Importance that were added and this they represented to the House Octob. the 4th by Major General Desborough And this so far forth awed them as to reach them so much good manners as to promise to take it presently into Debate which they did and Octob. the 12th having recovered their Spirits Voted That the Commissions of Lambert Desborough and others of the Council at Wallingford-house should be void Item That the Army should be governed by a Commission to Fleet-wood Monk Heslerig Walton Morley and Overton till February the 12th following and to make this good against the Force they expected from Lambert they ordered Heslerig and Morley to issue Warrants to such Officers as they could trust to bring their Souldiers next Morning into VVestminster which was done somewhat too late for Lambert had first brought his Souldiers thither and beset the house and turn'd back the Speaker which was then coming to it but Heslerig's Forces marching about St. James's Park wall came into St. Margarets Church-yard and so both Parties looked all day one upon another like Enemies but offered not to fight whereby the Rump was put out of possession of the House and the Officers continued their Meeting as before at Wallingford-house there they chose from among themselves with some few of the City a Committee which they called The Committee of safety whereof the chief were Lambert and Vane who with the advice of a General Council of Officers had Power to call Delinquents to Tryal to suppress Rebellions to treat with Foreign States c. You see now the Rump cut off and the Supreme Power which is charged with Salus Populi transferred to a Council of Officers and yet Lambert hopes for it in the end But one of their Limitations was That they should within six Weeks present to the Army a new Model of the Government if they had done so do you think they would have preferr'd Lambert or any other to the Supreme Authority rather than themselves B. I think not when the Rump had put into Commission among a few others for the Government of the Army that is for the Government of the three Nations General Monk
already Commander in chief of the Army in Scotland and that had done much greater things in this War than Lambert how durst they leave him out of this Committee of safety or how could Lambert think that Gen. Monk would forgive it and not endeavor to fasten the Rump again A. They thought not of him his Gallantry had been shown on remote Stages Ireland and Scotland his Ambition had not appeared here in their Contentions for the Government but he had complyed both with Richard and the Rump After General Monk had signified by Letter his dâ—slike of the Proceedings of Lambert and his Fellows they were much surpris'd and began to think him more considerable than they had done but it was too late B. Why was his Army not too small for so great an Enterprize A. The General knew very well his own and their Forces both what they were then and how they were to be augmented and what generally City and Country wished for which was the Restitution of the King which to bring about there needed no more but to come with his Army though not very great to London to the doing whereof there was no obstacle but the Army with Lambert What could he do in this Case If he had declar'd presently for the King or for a free Parliament all the Armies in England would have joyned against him and assuming the Title of a Parliament would have furnished themselves with Money General Monk after he had thus quarrelled by his Letter with the Council of Officers he secur'd first those Officers of his own Army which were Anabaptists and therefore not to be trusted and put others into their places then drawing his Forces together march'd to Berwick Being there he indicted a Convention of the Scots of whom he desired That they would take order for the security of the Nation in his absence and raise some maintenance for his Army in their March The Convention promised for the security of the Nation their best endeavour and rais'd him a sum of Money not great but enough for his purpose excusing themselves upon their present wants On the other side the Committee of Safety with the greatest and best part of their Army sent Lambert to oppose him but at the same time by divers Messages and Mediators urged him to a Treaty which he consented to and sent three Officers to London to treat with as many of theirs These six suddenly concluded without power from the General upon these Articles That the King be excluded a Free State setled the Ministry and Universities incouraged with divers which the General liked not and imprison'd one of his Commissioners for exceeding his Commission whereupon another Treaty was agreed on of five to five but whilst these Treaties were in hand Haslerig a Member of the Rump seized on Portsmouth and the Souldiers sent by the Committee of Safety to reduce it instead of that entred into the Town and joyned with Haslerig Secondly The City renewed their Tumults for a Free Parliament Thirdly The Lord Fairfax a Member also of the Rump and greatly favour'd in Yorkshire was raising Forces there behind Lambert who being now between two Armies his Enemies would gladly have fought the General Fourthly there came news that Devonshire and Cornwal were listing of Souldiers Lastly Lambert's Army wanting Money and sure they should not be furnished from the Council of Officers which had neither Authority nor Strength to levy Money grew discontented and for their Free-Quarter were odious to the Northern Countries B. I wonder why the Scots were so ready to furnish General Monk with Money for they were no Friends to the Rump A. I know not but I believe the Scots would have parted with a greater sum rather than the English should not have gone together by the Ears among themselves The Council of Officers being now beset with so many Enemies produced speedily their Model of Government which was to have a free Parliament which should meet December the fifteenth but with such Qualifications of no King no House of Lords as made the City more angry than before To send Souldiers into the West to suppress those that were rising there they durst not for fear of the City nor could they raise any other for want of Money there remain'd nothing but to break and quitting Wallingford-House to shift for themselves This coming to the knowledge of their Army in the North they deserted Lambert and the Rumpers the 26th of December re-possessed the House B. Seeing the Rump was now re-seated the business pretended by General Monk for his marching to London was at an end A. The Rump though seated was not well setled but in the midst of so many Tumults for a free Parliament had as much need of the General 's coming up now as before He therefore sent them word that because he thought them not yet secure enough he would come up to London with his Army which they not only accepted of but entreated him so to do and voted him for his service 1000 l. a year The General marching towards London the Country every where Petition'd him for a free Parliament The Rump to make room in London for his Army dislodged their own the General for all that had not let fall a word in all this time that could be taken for a Declaration of his Final Design B. How did the Rump revenge themselves on Lambert A. They never troubled him nor do I know any cause of their so gentle dealing with him but certainly Lambert was the ablest of any Officer they had to do them service when they should have means and need to imploy him After the General was come to London the Rump sent to the City for their part of a Tax of 100000 l. a Month for six Months according to an Act which the Rump had made formerly before their Disseism by the Committee of Safety But the City who were averse to the Rump and keen upon a free Parliament could not be brought to give their Money to their Enemies and to purposes repugnant to their own whereupon the Rump sent Order to the General to break down the City Gates and their Portcullices and to imprison certain obstinate Citizens This he perform'd and it was the last service he did them About this time the Commission by which General Monk with others had the Government of the Army put into their hands by the Rump before the Usurpation of the Council of Officers came to expire which the present Rump renewed B. He was thereby the sixth part of the General of the whole Forces of the Common-wealth if I had been as the Rump he should have been sole General In such cases as this there cannot be a greater Vice than pinching Ambition should be liberal A. After the pulling down of the City Gates the General sent a Letter to the Rump to let them know that this service was much against his Nature and to put them in mind how well the
City had serv'd the Parliament in the whole War B. Yes but for the City the Parliament could never have made the War nor the Rump ever have murdered the King A. The Rump considered not the Merit of the City nor the good nature of the General they were busie they were giving out Commissions making of Acts for Abjuration of the King and his Line and for the Old Engagement and conferring with the City to get Money The General also desir'd to hear Conference between some of the Rump and some of the secluded Members concerning the Justice of their Seclusion and of the hurt that could follow upon their re-admission and it was granted After long Conference the General finding the Rumps pretences unreasonable and ambitious declar'd himself with the City for a free Parliament and came to Westminster with the secluded Members whom he had appointed to meet and stay for him at White-Hall and re-placed them in the House among the Rumpers so that now the same Cattle that were in the House of Commons in 1640. except those that were dead and those that went from them to the late King at Oxford are all there again B. But this methinks was no good service to the King unless they had learnt better Principles A. They had learnt nothing the major part was now again Presbyterian 'T is true they were so grateful to General Monk as to make him General of all the Forces in the three Nations They did well also to make void the Engagement but it was because those Acts were made to the prejudice of their Party but recalled none of their own Rebellious Ordinances nor did any thing in order to the good of the present King but on the contrary they declar'd by a Vote that the late King began the War against his two Houses B. The two Houses considered as two Persons were they not two of the Kings Subjects If a King raise an Army against his Subject is it lawful for the Subject to resist with force when as in this case he might have had Peace upon his submission A. They knew they had acted vilely and sottishly but because they had always so greater than ordinary wisdom and godliness they were loth to confess it The Presbyterians now saw their time to make a Confession of their Faith and presented it to the House of Commons to shew they had not changed their Principles which after six Readings in the House was voted to be printed and once a year to be read publickly in every Church B. I say again this re-establishing of the Long Parliament was no good service to the King A. Have a little patience they were re-established with two Conditions one to determine their sitting before the end of March another to send out Writs before their rising for new Elections B. That qualifies A. That brought in the King for few of the Long-Parliament the Country having felt the smart of their former service could get themselves chosen again This new Parliament began to sit April the 25. 1660. How soon these called in the King with what Joy and Triumph he was receiv'd how earnestly his Majesty pressed the Parliament for the Act of Oblivion and how few were excepted out of it you know as well as I. B. But I have not yet observ'd in the Presbyterians any Oblivion of their former principles we are but return'd to the state we were in at the beginning of the Sedition A. Not so for before that time though the Kings of England had the right of the Militia in vertue of the Soveraignty and without dispute and without any particular Act of Parliament directly to the purpose yet now after this bloody dispute the next which is the present Parliament in proper and express terms hath declar'd the same to be the Right of the King only without either of his Houses of Parliament which Act is more instructive to the people than any Arguments drawn from the Title of Soveraignty and consequently fitter to disarm the Ambition of all seditious Haranguers for the time to come B. Pray God it be so howsoever I must confeâ—â— that this Parliament has done all that a Parliament can do for the security of our peace which I think also would be enough if our Preachers would take heed of instilling evil Principles into their Auditory I have seen in this Revolution a circular motion of the Soveraign Power â—through two Usurpers from the late King to this his Son for leaving out the power of the Council of Officers which was but temporary and no otherwise owned by them but in trust it moved from King Charles the First to the Long Parliament from thence to the Rump from the Rump to Oliver Cromwel and then back again from Richard Cromwel to the Rump thence to the Long Parliament and thence to King Charles the Second where long may it remain A. Amen And may he have as often as there shall be need such a General B. You have told me little of the General till now in the end but truly I think the bringing of his little Army entirely out of Scotland up to London was the greatest Stratagem that is extant in History FINIS