Selected quad for the lemma: england_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
england_n	john_n	king_n	normandy_n	5,766	5	11.9981	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A75425	An ansvver to severall obiections made against some things in Mr. Thomas Chaloners speech vvith an indifferent censure of those arguments delivered by him in the House of Commons upon the reading of the Scottish papers, concerning the votes of both Houses for the disposall of the Kings person.		1646 (1646)	Wing A3377; Thomason E362_27; ESTC R201223	3,001	8

AN ANSWER To severall Obiectons made against some things in Mr. THOMAS CHALONERS SPEECH VVith an indifferent Censure of those Arguments delivered by him in the House of Commons upon the reading of the Scottish Papers concerning the Votes of both Houses for the disposall of the KINGS PERSON Proverbs 15 2● 23. Without counsell purposes are disapointed but in the multitude of Counsellers they are established A man hath joy by the answere of his mouth and a word spoken in due season how good is it London Printed by Francis Leach 1646. An indifferent Censure of Mr. Chaloner his Speech delivered in the House of Commons upon the reading of the Scottish Papers DIvisions must needs be great where mistakes are frequent and those mistakes whether of ignorance or wilfullnesse make divisions wider then cleare understanding though in dissenting Opinions would suffer them to grow my hearty wishes are that I could compose differences in our owne Parity to which my affection shall never bee wanting though my understanding may faile in it The reason of my adventure at this time is occasioned upon Mr. Chaloners Speech in the House of Commons when the Scottish Papers were there read It was my fortune to peru●e that speech and what opinion I then conceived of it I cannot yet receed from though I have since seene a Paper in answer to it or as the Author calls it Animadversions upon it as a thing unsafe and dangerous striking at the Honour of the Parliament and interest of England How the speech should be guilty of those Aspersions I can neither find by any thing contained in it selfe nor by any allegations of the Answer against it I will therefore first deliver my own sense concerning the speech The narrative part of it is undoubtedly true the illustrative part or matter of instance is very proper if not extended by ignorant or wilfull mistakes beyond the proper latitude of an instance his Result upon the whole matter is no way derogatory from the Honour of the Parliament as being no more then was already Voted in the House nor injurious to the Kings Person though the answer be unsufferably injurious to Mr Chaloner in falsely aspersing him with a personall grudge against his Majesty of whose honour safety and freedome Hee speaks no more but with caution as it stands inrelation to the honour safety and freedome of the whole people which latter as all rationall men must needs grant was first considerable both in the Covenant and the law of nature it selfe but hee speaks nothing at all against the King 〈…〉 is the debate of the Parliament come so far yet as to question how the Kings Person shall bee disposed of but by whom But it is strange to observe how vainly this answer catches at parts instances of the speech To omit his Verball exception against the use of those words abstractum and concretum howsoever pedantik people have confined the signification of such termes it is knowne that wise men in discourses of state have used them in that sense in which the speech has as he may find in one of these Scottish Lords and none of the meanest in abilities among them in his booke entituled Lex Rex As vaine is that exception which hee takes against that most certaine truth in the speech that the person either of Prince or privat man being in a forraigne state is at the sole dispose of that state where hee resides and to be ruled by their laws and for two instances he thinks to make Mr Chaloner ashamed one is a particular case of Prince Charles his now being in France and the other Generall of Embassadours in forraigne Lands But let any man say to speak first of the Prince whither Pr. Charles be not solely at the dispose of the State of France at this time I think no sober man will deny it and that he cannot be recalled either by King or Parliament which this answerer would make a dishonour to the Parliament for the King sent him thither in probability because the Parliament of England should not dispose of his person It is likely the State of France gave him leave to come over and may suffer him to returne again according to some promise of theirs but what use they may first make of him and how long keep him the Answerer cannot tell It is a knowne truth that Princes who by misfortune as stormes at Sea or the like have bin cast unwillinglly upon other Princes Countries not onely may but have beene detayned by those Princes without imputation of Tyranny for taking that advantage Was not Iames the first of Scotland being driven into England by crosse windes detayned many veares here by Henry the fourth and Henery the fifth Kings of Engl. Was not Philip the first of Spaine driven upon the like accident on shoare in England detained by Hen. 7th and though that politike Prince vailed his Coercive power under a shew of curteous entertainement as such civilities are usuall in State yet King Philip finding himselfe a prisoner was content to grant some things to Henry which he would not have done had he beene in Spaine as my Lo. Bacon writes But to come neerer our time the King that now is can best tell what he feared When hee was prince Charles in France and poasted away from thence in disguise and I can tell what the pe●ple feared for him in Spaine and would more had it not beene for the Queene of Bohemia and her Children And for his instance of Embassadours what can that make against the Speech or the honour as he would have it of the Parliament for it is as plaine sense as can be that Embassadours are protected by the faith of that State where they reside for though they be by consent of Nations to be protected persons yet none but the State where they reside can ratify and immediately give that protection Where he seems to laugh at the instance of K. Iohn and sayes that it strengthens the Scottish Papers it appeares otherwise plainly in the Speech for it is there spoken as the opinion of Lawyers if King Iohn had beene in Normandy at the time of the Summons he ought to have bin tryed by the Lawes of France as Duke of Normandy what soever had become of the King of England and for the vast disproportion as the answerer calls it between one that is King of one Kingdom and Subject of another and him who is a free King of two Kingdomes I say the instance was not to extend to al points or if it did the answerer is out in another kind for there is also a vast disproportion between a King of 2. Kingdoms ruling in peace and justice and one who hath beene long in actuall Warre against the representative Bodies of his two Kingdomes and now a prisoner in their Armies But as the instances were proper enough the narration of the speech is very true and the case though I will not presume to decide any thing strange enough to admit of a debate for it is a strange thing as hee saith That on Army of Sones in pay of the Kingdome of England which by the treaty ought to be governed by the joynt consent of the Committees of both Kingdomes upon the place should in England take a King of England without the privity of the English Committee and convey him to New castle a Towne likewise of England and there keepe him six whole Months without the consent of the Parliament of England But hee came to them for a shelter Against whom Against that Parliament for whom they fought and into whose hands I do verily believe he might have bin delivered with safety and more happinesse to himselfe and all his good people I hope the intentions of our Brethren of Scotland were good in it for I was ever loath to suspect any evill from them But I am sure the effects of that shelter have beene already very sadde as by jealousies here to keepe so many Armies at a needlesse Charge and hinder the reliefe of poore Ireland I have heard that some of the Kings Counsell at Oxford advised him well that if he would make an end of these calarnitous troubls his best way was to come in to his English Parliament which was to come in to all his people and that committing himselfe to any other hands was but a continuing of these distractions which advise I would his Majesty had followed or that God would bee pleased yet to direct him in the right way FJNJS