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england_n ireland_n lord_n scotland_n 6,987 5 7.9748 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A88107 The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Ley, John, 1583-1662. 1645 (1645) Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462 96,520 124

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magistracle_n p._n 51._o sect._n xvi_o the_o objection_n of_o eager_a contestation_n for_o church_n discipline_n and_o 〈…〉_o p._n 53._o sect._n xvii_o the_o objection_n of_o inefficacie_n for_o holiness_n of_o life_n in_o such_o as_o live_v under_o the_o presbytery_n answer_v p._n 57_o sect._n xviii_o show_v what_o may_v be_v retort_v upon_o the_o antipresbyteriall_a party_n but_o conclude_v for_o unity_n and_o peace_n with_o allegation_n of_o m._n burrough_n his_o proposition_n of_o reconciliation_n and_o accord_n and_o some_o other_o particular_n tend_v thereto_o p._n 61._o sect._n xix_o further_a ground_n and_o hope_n of_o union_n in_o the_o church_n of_o the_o sister_n kingdom_n of_o england_n and_o scotland_n with_o answer_n to_o the_o objection_n that_o be_v make_v against_o it_o p._n 64._o sect._n xx._n a_o appendix_n to_o the_o precedent_a examination_n be_v a_o apologetical_a narrative_n of_o the_o petition_n of_o the_o common_a council_n of_o the_o city_n and_o minister_n of_o london_n present_v to_o both_o the_o
anabapt_a p._n 6._o luther_n do_v mediate_v with_o frederick_n duke_n of_o saxony_n that_o within_o his_o dominion_n they_o be_v favourable_o deal_v with_o all_o because_o except_v their_o error_n they_o seem_v otherwise_o good_a man_n but_o afterward_o by_o the_o connivance_n and_o indulgence_n that_o be_v use_v towards_o they_o increase_v both_o in_o body_n and_o boldness_n he_o be_v fain_o to_o 22._o to_o sleyd_n comment_fw-fr l._n 5._o fol._n 76._o p._n 22._o stir_v up_o the_o prince_n and_o people_n of_o germany_n against_o they_o as_o for_o the_o extinguish_n of_o a_o common_a combustion_n or_o a_o fire_n that_o threaten_v the_o burn_a of_o city_n and_o country_n which_o i_o mention_v not_o to_o excite_v authority_n to_o any_o needless_a or_o unseasonable_a severity_n but_o to_o note_v the_o danger_n of_o too_o much_o delay_n in_o apply_v remedy_n to_o imminent_a mischief_n he_o conclude_v this_o politic_a consideration_n with_o a_o sentence_n of_o scripture_n which_o be_v the_o contention_n of_o brethren_n be_v like_o the_o bar_n of_o a_o castle_n and_o a_o brother_n offend_v be_v hard_a to_o be_v win_v then_o a_o strong_a city_n prov._n 18.19_o and_o this_o he_o bring_v in_o as_o a_o seal_n to_o this_o politic_a aphorism_n for_o the_o cease_n of_o difference_n of_o themselves_o by_o silent_a forbearance_n but_o will_v the_o bar_n of_o a_o castle_n be_v break_v by_o let_v they_o alone_o and_o shall_v one_o expect_v to_o take_v a_o city_n a_o strong_a city_n and_o do_v nothing_o against_o it_o we_o have_v not_o find_v it_o so_o for_o the_o most_o part_n of_o our_o late_a war_n either_o in_o england_n or_o ireland_n thus_o far_o his_o politic_a rule_n now_o for_o particular_a instance_n we_o find_v it_o of_o two_o sort_n 1._o negative_a 2._o positive_a sect_n 10._o the_o negative_a argument_n take_v from_o want_n of_o experience_n of_o the_o new_a clergy_n answer_v first_o for_o the_o negative_a 5._o negative_a §_o 8._o p._n 5._o we_o have_v not_o yet_o any_o experience_n of_o our_o new_a clergy_n say_v he_o who_o be_v many_o of_o they_o branch_n of_o the_o old_a stock_n and_o so_o may_v wield_v the_o government_n too_o much_o of_o the_o episcopal_a faction_n as_o the_o samaritan_n do_v with_o the_o jewish_a government_n because_o they_o be_v not_o natural_a jew_n it_o be_v not_o safe_a trust_v a_o power_n too_o much_o into_o those_o hand_n our_o brethren_n of_o scotland_n have_v be_v better_o use_v to_o the_o way_n of_o presbytery_n and_o may_v better_o trust_v one_o another_o upon_o mutual_a experience_n than_o we_o can_v yet_o answer_n have_v we_o not_o yet_o experience_n of_o our_o new_a clergy_n then_o they_o can_v be_v charge_v with_o the_o misgovernment_n of_o the_o people_n but_o we_o have_v experience_n of_o much_o evil_a for_o want_v of_o government_n but_o how_o can_v there_o be_v experience_n of_o they_o if_o there_o be_v no_o government_n to_o try_v they_o withal_o he_o say_v many_o be_v branch_n of_o the_o old_a stock_n and_o so_o may_v wield_v the_o government_n too_o much_o of_o the_o episcopal_a faction_n and_o yet_o present_o he_o compare_v they_o to_o the_o samaritan_n and_o jew_n who_o be_v most_o adverse_a in_o affection_n and_o disposition_n and_o deal_v one_o to_o another_o compare_v joh._n 8.48_o with_o luke_n 9.53_o and_o joh._n 4.9_o and_o then_o say_v it_o be_v not_o safe_a trust_v a_o power_n too_o far_o into_o those_o hand_n i_o think_v he_o need_v not_o much_o to_o fear_v that_o the_o government_n will_v be_v so_o qualify_v for_o the_o thing_n itself_o and_o so_o dispose_v of_o for_o the_o person_n that_o be_v to_o manage_v it_o that_o it_o will_v not_o be_v in_o the_o power_n of_o any_o to_o abuse_v it_o but_o upon_o their_o peril_n here_o lest_o the_o example_n of_o our_o brethren_n in_o scotland_n shall_v be_v bring_v in_o by_o way_n of_o prejudice_n to_o his_o advice_n and_o resolution_n against_o the_o timely_a establishment_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n in_o england_n he_o 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to_o suppress_v the_o multiplicity_n of_o sect_n be_v to_o let_v they_o have_v scope_n and_o they_o will_v run_v themselves_o out_o of_o breath_n whereto_o i_o can_v give_v my_o vote_n since_o we_o may_v not_o give_v way_n that_o god_n shall_v be_v dishonour_v nor_o the_o people_n be_v endanger_v nor_o false_a teacher_n tolerate_v if_o we_o may_v hinder_v it_o no_o not_o for_o a_o hour_n galat_n 2.5_o 2._o for_o the_o positive_a instance_n his_o next_o word_n be_v 5._o be_v §_o 9_o p._n 5._o we_o experience_n in_o part_n some_o remainder_n of_o prelacy_n work_v in_o many_o which_o show_v a_o constitution_n not_o so_o clear_a nor_o pure_a as_o the_o disciple_n of_o christ_n shall_v have_v then_o whether_o it_o be_v safe_a commit_v the_o power_n too_o sudden_o for_o though_o i_o question_v not_o but_o some_o may_v be_v like_o the_o ten_o yet_o there_o be_v other_o that_o be_v like_o the_o two_o brethren_n who_o strive_v which_o shall_v be_v the_o great_a till_o the_o lordend_v the_o difference_n it_o shall_v not_o be_v so_o among_o you_o answer_n this_o parcel_n of_o his_o politics_n begin_v scarce_o with_o good_a english_a for_o where_o read_v this_o writer_n this_o phrase_n we_o experience_n and_o why_o do_v he_o not_o keep_v to_o the_o term_n he_o use_v in_o the_o precedent_n paragraph_n we_o have_v experiment_n or_o experience_n and_o he_o go_v on_o with_o as_o little_a good_a sense_n for_o a_o little_a after_o he_o say_v then_o whether_o it_o be_v safe_a to_o commit_v the_o power_n too_o sudden_o for_o though_o i_o question_v not_o etc._n etc._n where_o he_o suspend_v the_o sense_n of_o his_o speech_n and_o leave_v it_o to_o be_v make_v up_o by_o a_o supplement_n of_o the_o reader_n yet_o we_o know_v his_o meaning_n thus_o far_o that_o it_o be_v not_o safe_a to_o commit_v the_o power_n too_o sudden_o if_o he_o mean_v by_o this_o and_o by_o the_o word_n hasty_o in_o the_o body_n of_o his_o quere_z rash_o or_o inconsiderate_o we_o say_v so_o too_o but_o we_o deny_v which_o he_o mean_v that_o if_o it_o have_v be_v do_v soon_o or_o be_v not_o defer_v long_o it_o will_v be_v too_o sudden_o do_v but_o it_o appear_v by_o what_o before_o have_v be_v observe_v with_o he_o to_o commit_v any_o power_n or_o establish_v any_o government_n especial_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n it_o be_v too_o soon_o or_o sudden_o do_v if_o it_o be_v do_v at_o all_o in_o the_o next_o part_n of_o this_o paragraph_n he_o begin_v to_o be_v rational_a but_o so_o that_o it_o may_v make_v more_o for_o that_o part_n he_o oppose_v then_o for_o that_o which_o he_o plead_v for_o in_o these_o word_n for_o though_o i_o question_v not_o say_v he_o but_o some_o may_v be_v like_o the_o ten_o yet_o there_o be_v other_o like_o the_o two_o brethren_n which_o strive_v who_o shall_v be_v the_o great_a till_o the_o lord_n end_v the_o difference_n it_o shall_v not_o be_v so_o among_o you_o where_o if_o we_o keep_v the_o proportion_n he_o bring_v in_o and_o make_v application_n according_o we_o may_v say_v for_o two_o ambitious_a presbyterian_o it_o be_v like_o there_o may_v be_v ten_o that_o be_v more_o modest_o and_o humble_o mind_v then_o to_o affect_v such_o a_o preeminence_n above_o their_o brethren_n beside_o the_o presbyterian_a government_n be_v frame_v direct_o according_a to_o the_o resolution_n of_o our_o saviour_n it_o shall_v not_o be_v so_o among_o you_o as_o oppose_v to_o the_o prelatical_a authority_n 5._o authority_n §_o 9_o p._n 5._o we_o find_v say_v he_o further_o the_o hot_a controversy_n be_v now_o move_v about_o church_n government_n and_o there_o have_v be_v most_o speak_v and_o write_v this_o way_n and_o in_o most_o violence_n now_o when_o the_o contention_n for_o power_n be_v so_o much_o and_o the_o controversy_n stream_n
have_v seven_o no_o more_o than_o be_v contain_v in_o the_o six_o for_o my_o part_n if_o this_o be_v candid_o and_o cordial_o in_o point_n of_o church_n government_n deliver_v and_o so_o receive_v and_o profess_v by_o those_o of_o his_o side_n i_o hope_v such_o as_o be_v adversary_n unto_o both_o party_n shall_v not_o long_o rejoice_v and_o prosper_v by_o the_o advantage_n they_o make_v of_o our_o mutual_a division_n sect_n xix_o further_a ground_n and_o hope_n of_o union_n in_o the_o church_n of_o the_o sister_n kingdom_n of_o england_n and_o scotland_n with_o answer_n to_o the_o objection_n that_o be_v make_v against_o it_o i_o have_v the_o more_o hope_n of_o the_o union_n forementioned_a because_o if_o they_o who_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o paucity_n and_o novelty_n of_o their_o party_n compare_v with_o the_o church_n of_o the_o presbyterian_a government_n throughout_o the_o christian_a world_n for_o number_n and_o seniority_n be_v not_o so_o considerable_a as_o some_o conceive_v will_v yield_v as_o far_o as_o they_o ought_v for_o a_o pacificall_a accord_n their_o presbyterian_a brethren_n will_v as_o far_o as_o they_o may_v with_o security_n to_o the_o truth_n and_o reservation_n of_o the_o interest_n and_o honour_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n come_v down_o to_o they_o in_o such_o a_o christian_a accommodation_n as_o be_v requisite_a for_o a_o conclusion_n of_o peace_n my_o ground_n for_o this_o be_v that_o which_o i_o have_v observe_v in_o the_o disposition_n of_o the_o reverend_n religious_a and_o prudent_a commissioner_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n for_o though_o that_o church_n be_v suppose_v and_o censure_v by_o some_o as_o the_o most_o rigid_a in_o exact_v assent_n to_o and_o observation_n of_o her_o rule_n and_o custom_n as_o if_o all_o must_v yield_v to_o she_o as_o the_o standard_n of_o discipline_n and_o she_o will_v yield_v to_o none_o they_o have_v always_o in_o all_o their_o debate_n and_o behaviour_n even_o towards_o the_o dissent_v brethren_n carry_v themselves_o with_o a_o most_o christian_n and_o evangelicall_n sincerity_n and_o sweetness_n of_o spirit_n and_o some_o of_o they_o have_v well_o witness_v to_o the_o world_n their_o hope_n desire_n and_o endeavour_n for_o peace_n especial_o with_o all_o the_o religious_a and_o faithful_a preacher_n and_o professor_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n for_o instance_n one_o of_o they_o in_o his_o 19_o his_o mr._n gillespie_n his_o brotherly_a examination_n of_o some_o passage_n of_o m._n c._n his_o print_a sermon_n p._n 33._o this_o be_v repeat_v in_o his_o latter_a book_n call_v nihi●_fw-la respondes_fw-la p._n 19_o brotherly_a examination_n of_o some_o passage_n in_o mr._n colem_n his_o sermon_n to_o this_o question_n where_o shall_v the_o independent_o and_o we_o meet_v return_v this_o answer_n in_o hold_v a_o church_n governmeut_n jure_fw-la divino_fw-la that_o be_v that_o the_o pastor_n and_o elder_n ought_v to_o suspend_v or_o excommunicate_v according_a to_o the_o degree_n of_o the_o offence_n of_o scandalous_a sinner_n and_o who_o can_v tell_v but_o the_o purge_n of_o the_o church_n from_o scandal_n and_o the_o keep_n of_o the_o ordinance_n pure_a when_o it_o shall_v be_v actual_o see_v to_o be_v the_o great_a work_n endeavour_v on_o both_o side_n may_v wake_v union_n betwixt_o we_o and_o the_o independent_o more_o easy_a than_o many_o imagine_v and_o in_o his_o ibid._n his_o ibid._n latter_a book_n say_v he_o we_o will_v never_o despair_v of_o a_o union_n with_o such_o as_o be_v sound_a in_o the_o faith_n holy_a in_o life_n and_o willing_a to_o a_o church_n refine_n and_o sinne-censuring_a government_n in_o the_o hand_n of_o church_n officer_n and_o in_o answer_n to_o mr._n c._n his_o relation_n of_o news_n of_o agreement_n betwixt_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o lutheran_n and_o calvinist_n papist_n and_o protestant_n turk_n and_o christian_n in_o hold_v that_o there_o be_v a_o religion_n wherein_o man_n ought_v to_o walk_v he_o say_v no_o sir_n they_o must_v be_v unite_v upon_o the_o like_a term_n that_o be_v you_o must_v first_o have_v turk_n to_o be_v christian_n papist_n to_o be_v protestant_n and_o then_o you_o must_v have_v they_o as_o willing_a to_o purge_v the_o church_n of_o scandal_n and_o to_o keep_v the_o ordinance_n pure_a etc._n etc._n and_o after_o a_o few_o line_n before_o repeat_v quit_v mr._n c._n his_o jeer_a report_n of_o news_n he_o repli_v but_o sober_o and_o serious_o now_o will_v i_o tell_v you_o my_o news_n the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o be_v both_o equal_o interest_v against_o the_o erastian_n principle_n and_o which_o be_v more_o for_o degree_n of_o assurance_n and_o for_o more_o general_a concurrence_n in_o truth_n and_o peace_n not_o this_o commissioner_n nor_o these_o commissioner_n only_o but_o the_o whole_a church_n of_o scotland_n be_v well_o prepare_v and_o dispose_v to_o a_o christian_a and_o brotherly_a compliance_n with_o the_o church_n of_o england_n in_o the_o way_n of_o reformation_n for_o mr._n coleman_n have_v object_v that_o the_o commissioner_n of_o scotland_n come_v not_o to_o the_o assembly_n at_o westminster_n as_o divine_n by_o dispute_n and_o disquisition_n to_o find_v out_o the_o truth_n but_o at_o judge_n to_o censure_v all_o different_a opinion_n as_o error_n for_o so_o say_v he_o come_v for_o nine_o divine_n to_o dort_n alexander_n to_o the_o council_n of_o nice_a cyrill_n to_o ephesus_n the_o learned_a commissioner_n answer_v he_o thus_o be_v it_o not_o enough_o to_o slander_v we_o though_o he_o do_v not_o for_o our_o sake_n slander_v those_o worthy_a divine_n that_o come_v to_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n alexander_n also_o and_o cyrill_a prime_a witness_n for_o the_o truth_n in_o their_o day_n will_v no_o less_o content_v he_o then_o to_o approve_v the_o objection_n of_o the_o arminian_o against_o the_o synod_n at_o dort_n which_o i_o have_v mention_v p._n 33_o but_o he_o get_v not_o away_o so_o the_o strong_a instance_n which_o i_o have_v give_v he_o have_v be_v once_o touch_v it_o be_v concern_v paul_n and_o barnabas_n who_o wear_v engage_v not_o in_o the_o behalf_n of_o one_o nation_n but_o of_o all_o the_o church_n of_o the_o gentile_n against_o the_o imposition_n of_o the_o mosaical_a rite_n and_o have_v so_o declare_v themselves_o at_o antioch_n before_o they_o come_v to_o jerusalem_n final_o whereas_o he_o doubt_v though_o not_o of_o our_o willingness_n to_o learn_v more_o yet_o of_o our_o permission_n to_o receive_v more_o that_o very_a paper_n first_o give_v in_o by_o we_o which_o i_o have_v cite_v and_o unto_o which_o he_o make_v this_o reply_n do_v speak_v not_o only_o of_o our_o learning_n but_o of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n receive_n and_o which_o be_v more_o there_o be_v a_o actual_a experiment_n of_o it_o the_o last_o general_a assembly_n have_v order_v the_o lay_v aside_o of_o some_o particular_a custom_n in_o that_o church_n and_o that_o for_o the_o near_a uniformity_n with_o 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