France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the heighth of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisy of the then Clergy and notwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Shorthand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's and against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their Power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith which Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Edward were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not persecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democraâ—ical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of the Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr. Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the world And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his Power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversie between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his Power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongues whereas beâ—â—â— the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express Licence so to do for the Pope did concerning the Scriptures the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to
go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so what other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latine and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this Licence of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the Disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and Governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not onely the Citizens of London were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the Concurrence of a great many Gentlemen that did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and as these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church Government Canons and Common Prayer Book so did the other make them in love with Democracie by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their Discourse and Communication with people in the Country continnually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyrany leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyrany was the present Government of the State and as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the Chief leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less Learned And the Gentlemen envying the Privy Council whom they thought less wise than themselves for 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any Ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politick of the Ancient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not Publickly Preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Fryers had formerly done upon working days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a likeing of their Doctrines and good Opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching They so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have Acted the part of a right godly man better then these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any Ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the Vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing else but zeal to the service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to Despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly For the matter of their Sermons because the Anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them then to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther
in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in charity with all Men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from scanal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill Principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if Men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey the Laws an Army you l say But what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not very long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that Men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universities themselves be in such manner as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them and the Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this Point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party aginst him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of this business and refer it to some other Day that you shall think fit B. Content that Day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer my money would have been so much the better provided for you B. Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the People believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclind to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase there disaffection to his Majesty they accused him of a purpose to introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom than which nothing was more hateful to the People not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to hear it inveyed against in the Sermons and discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual callumny to alienate the Peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Consecretary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbarini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be Able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell But 〈◊〉 likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There was exception also taken at a Covent of Fryers Capucines in Summerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jesuits also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clarkenwel and in the mean time the Principal Secretary Sir Francis windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuits that had been taken and imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the statute which had made it Capital also the resort of English Catholicks to the Queens-Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen herself not only for that but also for all the favours that had been shown to the Catholicks insomuch that some of them did not stick to say openly that the King was Governed by her B. Strange Injustice The Queen was a Cathâ—lick by profession and therefore could not but endeavour to do the Catholicks all the good she could she had not else been truely that which she professed to be but it seems they meant to force her to Hypocrisy being Hypocrites themselves Can any man think it a crime in a Devout Lady of what Sect soever to seek Favour and Benediction of that Church whereof she is a Member A. To give the Parliament another Colour for their Accusation on foot for the King as to introducing of Popery there was a great Controversy between the Episcopal and Presbyterian Clergy about Free-will The Dispute began first in the Low-Countries between Gomar and Arminius in the time of King James who foreseeing it might trouble the Church of England did what he could to compose the difference an Assembly of Divines was thereupon got together at Dort to which also King James sent a Divine or two but it came to nothing the question was left undecided and became a Subject to be disputed of in the Universities here all the Presbyterians were of the same mind with Gomar but a very great many others not and those were called here Arminians who because the Doctrine of Free-will had been exploded as Papistical and because the Presbyterians were far the greater number and already in favour with the People they were generally hated it was easy therefore for the Parliament to make that Calumny pass currently with the People when the Arch Bishop of Canterbury Dr. Laud was for Arminius and had a little before by his Power Ecclesiastical forbidden all Ministers to Preach to the People of Predestination and when all Ministers that were gracious with him and hoped for any Church-preferment fell to Preaching and Writing for Free-will to the uttermost of their Power as a proof of their Abillity and Merit Besides they gave out some of them that the Arch-Bishop was in heart a Papist and in case he could effect here a Tolleration of the Roman Religion to have a Cardinal's Hat
not sit in this House till farther Order of the Parliament And thus the Rump recover'd their Authority May the seventh 1659. which they lost in April 1653. B. Seeing there have been so many shiftings of the Supreme Authority I pray you for memories sake repeat them briefly in time and order A. First from 1640 to 1648. when the King was murthered the Soveraignty was disputed between King Charles the First and the Presbyterian Parliament Secondly From 1648. to 1653. The Power was in that part of the Parliament which voted the Tryel of the King and declar'd themselves without King or House of Lords to have the Supreme Authority of England and Ireland For there were in the Long-Parliament two Factions the Presbyterian and Independents The former whereof sought only subjection of the King nor his destruction directly the latter sought his destruction and this part is it which was called the Rump Thirdly From April the twentieth to July the fourth the Supreme Power was in the Hands of a Council of State constituted by Cromwel Fourthly From July the fourth to December the twelfth of the same year it was in the Hands of Men called unto it by Cromwel whom he termed men of Fidelity and Integrity and made them a Parliament which was called in contempt one of the Members Barebone's Parliament Fifthly From December the twelfth 1653 to September the third 1658. it was in the hands of Oliver Cromwel with the Title of Protector Sixthly From September 1658 to April the twenty fifth 1659. Richard Cromwel had it as Successor to his Father Seventhly From April the twenty fifth 1659 to May the seventh of the same year it was no where Eighthly From May the seventh 1659. the Rump which was turn'd out of Door 1653. recovered it again and shall lose it again to the Committee of Safety and again recover it and again lose it to the right Owner B. By whom and by what Art came the Rump to be turn'd out the second time A. One would think them safe enough the Army in Scotland which when it was in London had helped Oliver to pull down the Rump submitted now beg'd pardon and promis'd Obedience The Souldiers in Town had their pay mended and the Commanders every where took the old Engagement whereby they had acknowledged their Authority heretofore they also received their Commissions in the House it self from the Speaker who was Generalissimo Fleetwood was made Lieutenant-General with such and so many limitations as were thought necessary by the Rump that remembred how they had been serv'd by their General Oliver Also Henry Cromwel Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having resign'd his Commission by Command return'd into England But Lambert to whom as was said Oliver had promis'd the succession and as well as the Rump knew the way to the Protectorship by Olivers own foot-steps was resolv'd to proceed in it upon the first opportunity which presented it self presently after Besides some Plots of Royalists whom after the old fashion they again persecuted there was an Insurrection made against them by Presbyterians in Cheshire headed by Sir George Booth one of the secluded Members they were in number about three thousand and their pretence was for a Free-Parliament There was a great talk of another Rising or endeavour to Rise in Devonshire and Cornwal at the same time To suppress Sir George Booth the Rump sent down more then a sufficient Army under Lambert which quickly defeated the Cheshire party and recover'd Chester Leverpool and all the other places they had seized divers of their Commanders in and after the Battel were taken Prisoners whereof Sir George Booth himself was one This exploit done Lambert before his return caressed his Souldiers with an entertainment at his own House in York-shire and got their consent to a Petition to be made to the House that a General might be set up in the Army as being unfit that the Army should be judged by any Power extrinsick to it self B. I do not see that unfitness A. Nor I. But it was as I have heard an Action of Sir Henry Vane's But it so much displeased the Rump that they Voted that the having of more General 's in the Army than were already setled was unnecessary burthensome and dangerous to the Common-Wealth B. This was not Oliver's Method for though this Cheshire Victory had been as glorious as that of Oliver at Dunbar yet it was not the Victory that made Oliver General but the Resignation of Fairfax and the proffer of it to Cromwel by the Parliament A. But Lambert thought so well of himself 〈◊〉 to expect it therefore at his return to London he and other Officers assembling at Wallingford-house drew their Petition into form and called it a Representation wherein the Chief point was to have a General with many other of less Importance that were added and this they represented to the House Octob. the 4th by Major General Desborough And this so far forth awed them as to reach them so much good manners as to promise to take it presently into Debate which they did and Octob. the 12th having recovered their Spirits Voted That the Commissions of Lambert Desborough and others of the Council at Wallingford-house should be void Item That the Army should be governed by a Commission to Fleet-wood Monk Heslerig Walton Morley and Overton till February the 12th following and to make this good against the Force they expected from Lambert they ordered Heslerig and Morley to issue Warrants to such Officers as they could trust to bring their Souldiers next Morning into VVestminster which was done somewhat too late for Lambert had first brought his Souldiers thither and beset the house and turn'd back the Speaker which was then coming to it but Heslerig's Forces marching about St. James's Park wall came into St. Margarets Church-yard and so both Parties looked all day one upon another like Enemies but offered not to fight whereby the Rump was put out of possession of the House and the Officers continued their Meeting as before at Wallingford-house there they chose from among themselves with some few of the City a Committee which they called The Committee of safety whereof the chief were Lambert and Vane who with the advice of a General Council of Officers had Power to call Delinquents to Tryal to suppress Rebellions to treat with Foreign States c. You see now the Rump cut off and the Supreme Power which is charged with Salus Populi transferred to a Council of Officers and yet Lambert hopes for it in the end But one of their Limitations was That they should within six Weeks present to the Army a new Model of the Government if they had done so do you think they would have preferr'd Lambert or any other to the Supreme Authority rather than themselves B. I think not when the Rump had put into Commission among a few others for the Government of the Army that is for the Government of the three Nations General Monk