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A30412
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A relation of a conference held about religion at London by Edw. Stillingfleet ... with some gentlemen of the Church of Rome.
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Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699.; Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715.
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1687
(1687)
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Wing B5863; ESTC R4009
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107,419
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74
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to judge these to be heinous abuses which did much endanger the Salvation of Souls therefore being the Pastors of the Church and being assisted in it by the Civil Powers they had both good reason and sufficient Authority to reform the Church from these Abuses and he left it to M. C. to chuse on which of these Particulars they should discourse M. B. said The Bishops and Pastors having the charge of Souls were bound to feed the Flock with sound Doctrine according to the word of God So S. Paul when he charged the Bishops of Ephesus to feed the Flock and to guard it against Wolves or Seducers he commends them to the word of Gods Grace which is the Gospel And in his Epistles to Timothy and Titus wherein the Rules of the Pastoral charge are set down he commands Timothy and in him all Bishops and Pastors to hold fast the Doctrine and form of sound words which he had delivered and tells him the Scriptures were able to make the man of God perfect If then the Bishops and Pastors of this Church found it corrupted by any unsound Doctrine or Idolatrous Worship they were by the Law of God and the charge of Souls for which they were accountable obliged to throw out these Corruptions and reform the Church and this the rather that the first Question proposed in the Consecration of a Bishop as it is in the Pontifical is Wilt thou teach these things which thou understandest to be in the Scripture to the People committed to thee both by thy Doctrine and Example To which he answers I will M. C. said We had now offered as much as would be the subject of many days discourse and he had but few minutes to spare therefore he desired to be informed what Authority those Bishops had to judge in matters which they found not only in this Church but in all Churches round about them should they have presumed to judge in these matters D. S. said It had been frequently the Practice of many Nations and Provinces to meet in Provincial Synods and reform Abuses For which he offered to prove they had both Authority and President But much more in some Instances he was ready to shew of particulars that had been defined by General Councils which they only applied to their Circumstances and this was never questioned but Provincial Synods might do M. C. desired to be first satisfied by what Authority they could cut themselves off from the Obedience of the See of Rome in King Henry the VIII his days The Pope then was looked on as the Monarch of the Christian World in Spirituals and all Christendom was one Church under One Head and had been so for many Ages So that if a Province or Country would cut themselves from the Body of this Nation for instance Wales that had once distinct Princes and say we acknowledge no right William the Conquerour had so that we reject the Authority of those descended from him they might have the same Plea which this our Church had For the day before that Act of Parliament did pass after the 20. of Henry the VIII the Pope had the Authority in Spirituals and they were his Subjects in Spirituals Therefore their Declaring he had none could not take his Authority from him no more than the Long Parliament had right to declare by any Act that the Sovereign Power was in the Peoples hands in pursuance of which they cut off the Kings Head D. S. said The first General Councils as they established the Patriarchal Power so the Priviledges of several Churches were preserved entire to them as in the case of Cyprus that the British Churches were not within the Patriarchal Jurisdiction of Rome that afterwards the Bishops of Rome striking in with the Interests of the Princes of Europe and watching and improving all Advantages got up by degrees through many Ages into that height of Authority which they managed as ill as they unjustly acquired it and particularly in England where from King William the Conqueror's days as their illegal and oppressive Impositions were a constant Grievance to the People so our Princes and Parliaments were ever put to struggle with them But to affront their Authority Thomas Becket who was a Traitour to the Law must be made a Saint and a day kept for him in which they were to pray to God for Mercy through his Merits It continuing thus for several Ages in the end a vigorous Prince arises who was resolved to assert his own Authority And he looking into the Oaths the Bishops swore to the Pope they were all found in a Praemunire by them Then did the whole Nation agree to assert their own freedom and their Kings Authority And 't was considerable that those very Bishops that in Queen Maries days did most cruelly persecute those of the Church of England and advance the Interests of Rome were the most zealous Assertors and Defenders of what was done by King Henry the VIII Therefore the Popes Power in England being founded on no just Title and being managed with so much Oppression there was both a full Authority and a great deal of reason for rejecting it And if the Maior Generals who had their Authority from Cromwell might yet have declared for the King who had the true Title and against the Usurper so the Bishops though they had sworn to the Pope yet that being contrary to the Allegiance they ow'd the King ought to have asserted the Kings Authority and rejected the Pope's M. B. said It seemed M. C. founded the Popes Right to the Authority he had in England chiefly upon Prescription But there were two things to be said to that First that no Prescription runs against a divine right In the clearing of Titles among Men Prescription is in some Cases a good Title But if by the Laws of God the Civil Powers have a supream Authority over their Subjects then no Prescription whatsoever can void this Besides the Bishops having full Authority and Jurisdiction this could not be bounded or limited by any Obedience the Pope claimed from them Further there can be no Prescription in this case where the Usurpation has been all along contested and opposed We were ready to prove that in the first Ages all Bishops were accounted Brethren Colleagues and fellow-Bishops with the Bishop of Rome That afterwards as he was declared Patriarch of the West so the other Patriarchs were equal in Authority to him in their several Patriarchates That Britain was no part of his Patriarchate but an exempt as Cyprus was That his Power as Patriarch was only for receiving Appeals or calling Synods and did not at all encroach on the Jurisdiction of other Bishops in their Sees and that the Bishops in his Patriarchate did think they might separate from him A famous Instance of this was in the sixth Century when the Question was about the tria Capitula for which the Western Bishops did generally stand and Pope Vigilius wrote in defence of
Merits of Jesus Christ but that several things may concur in several orders or ways to produce the same effects so although we are pardoned and saved only through Jesus Christ yet without Holiness we shall never see God we must also suffer whatever Crosses he tries us with So that these in another sense procure the pardon of our sins and eternal salvation Thus in like manner the Prayers of the blessed Virgin and the Saints are great helps to our obtaining these therefore though these be all joyned together in the same Prayer yet it was an unjust Charge on their Church to say they make them equal in their value or efficiency M. B. said The thing he had chiefly excepted against in that Prayer was that these things are ascribed to the Merits of the blessed Virgin and the Saints Now he had only spoken of their Prayers and he appealed to all if the natural meaning of these words was not that he charged on them and the sense the other had offered was not forced M. C. said By Merits were understood Prayers which had force and merit with God M. B. said That could not be for in another Absolution in the Office of our Lady they pray for Remission of sins through the Merits and Prayers of the blessed Virgin so that by Merits must be meant somewhat else than their Prayers M. C. said That as by our Prayers on earth we help one anothers souls so by our giving alms for one another we might do the same so also the Saints in Heaven might be helpful to us by their Prayers and Merits And as soon as he had spoken this he got to his feet and said he was in great haste and much business lay on him that day but said to D. S. That when he pleased he would wait on him and discourse of the other particulars at more length D. S. assured him that whenever he pleased to appoint it he should be ready to give him a meeting And so he went away Then we all stood and talked to one another without any great order near half a hour the Discourse being chiefly about the Nags-head Fable D. S. appealed to the publick Registers and challenged the silence of all the Popish Writers all Queen Elizabeth's Reign when such a story was fresh and well known and if there had been any colour for it is it possible they could keep it up or conceal it S. P. T. said All the Registers were forged and that it was not possible to satisfie him in it no more than to prove he had not four fingers on his hand and being desired to read Dr. Bramhali's Book about it he said he had read it six times over and that it did not satisfie him M. B. asked him How could any matter of Fact that was a hundred years old be proved if the publick Registers and the instruments of publick Notaries were rejected and this the more that this being a matter of fact which could not be done in a corner nor escape the knowledge of their Adversaries who might have drawn great and just advantages from publishing and proving it yet that it was never so much as spoken of while that Race was alive is as â— an Evidence as can be that the Forgery was on the other side D. S. did clear the Objection from the Commission and Act of Parliament that it was only for making the Ordination legal in England since in Edw. 6. time the Book of Ordination was not joyned in the Record to the Book of Common-Prayer from whence Bishop Bonner took occasion to deny their Ordination as not according to Law and added that Saunders who in Queen Elizabeth's time denied the validity of our Ordination never alledged any such story But as we were talking freely of this M. W. said once or twice they were satisfied about the chief Design they had in that meeting to see if there could be alledged any place of Scripture to prove that Article about the blessed Sacrament and said somewhat that looked like the beginning of a Triumph Upon which D. S. desired all might sit down again that they might put that matter to an issue so a Bible was brought and D. S. being spent with much speaking desired M. B. to speak to it M. B. turned to the 6th Chap. of Iohn vers 54. and read these words Whose eateth my Flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal Life and added These words were according to the common Interpretation of their Church to be understood of the sacramental Manducation This M. W. granted only M. B. had said all the Doctors understood these words so and M. W. said That all had not done so which M. B. did acknowledge but said it was the received Exposition in their Church and so framed his Argument Eternal Life is given to every one that receives Christ in the Sacrament But by Faith only we get eternal Life therefore by Faith only we receive Christ in the Sacrament Otherwise he said unworthy Receivers must be said to have eternal Life which is a contradiction for as such they are under Condemnation yet the unworthy Receivers have the external Manducation therefore that Manducation that gives eternal Life with it must be internal and spiritual and that is by Faith A Person whose Name I know not but shall henceforth mark him N. N. asked what M. B. meant by Faith only M. B. said By Faith he meant such a believing of the Gospel as carried along with it Evangelical Obedience by Faith only he meant Faith as opposite to sense D. S. asked him if we received Christ's Body and Blood by our Senses N. N. said we did D. S. asked which of the senses his Taste or Touch or Sight for that seemed strange to him N. N. said We received Christ's Body with our senses as well as we did the substance of Bread for our senses did not receive the substance of Bread and did offer some things to illustrate this both from the Aristotelian and Cartesian Hypothesis D. S. said He would not engage in that Subtlety which was a digression from the main Argument but he could not avoid to think it a strange Assertion to say we received Christ by our senses and yet to say he was so present there that none of our senses could possibly perceive him But to the main Argument M. W. denied the Minor that by Faith only we have eternal Life M. B. proved it thus The Sons of God have eternal Life but by Faith only we become the Sons of God therefore by Faith only we had eternal Life M. W. said Except he gave them both Major and Minor in express words of Scripture he would reject the Argument M. B. said That if he did demonstrate that both the Propositions of his Argument were in the strictest Construction possible equivalent to clear places of Scripture then his Proofs were good therefore he desired to know which of the two Propositions he should prove either that