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A59095 Table-talk, being discourses of John Seldon, Esq or his sense of various matters of weight and high consequence, relating especially to religion and state. Selden, John, 1584-1654. 1696 (1696) Wing S2438; ESTC R3639 74,052 204

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Parliament was wary what Subsidies they gave to the King because they had no account but now they care not how much they give of the Subjects Money because they give it with one hand and receive it with the other and so upon the matter give it themselves In the mean time what a case the Subjects of England are in if the Men they have sent to the Parliament mis-behave themselves they cannot help it because the Parliament is Eternal 2. A Subsidy was counted the fifth part of a Man's Estate and so fifty Subsidies is five and forty times more than a Man is Worth Simony 1. THE Name of Simony was begot in the Canon-Law the first Statute against it was in Queen Elizabeth's time Since the Reformation Simony has been frequent One reason why it was not practised in time of Popery was the Pope's provision no Man was sure to bestow his own Benefice Ship-Money 1. MR. Noy brought in Ship-money first for Maritine Towns but that was like putting in a little Augur that afterwards you may put in a greater He that pulls down the first Brick does the main Work afterwards 't is easie to pull down the Wall 2. They that at first would not pay Ship-money till 't was decided did like brave Men though perhaps they did no good by the Trial but they that stand out since and suffer themselves to be distrained never questioning those that do it do pitifully for so they only pay twice as much as they should Synod Assembly 1. WE have had no national Synod since the Kingdom hath been settled as now it is only Provincial and there will be this inconveniency to call so many Divines together 't will be to put Power in their Hands who are too apt to usurp it as if the Laity were bound by their Determination No let the Laity consult with Divines on all sides hear what they say and make themselves Masters of their Reasons as they do by any other profession when they have a Difference before them For Example Gold-smiths they enquire of them if such a Jewel be of such a Value and such a Stone of such a Value hear them and then being rational Men judge themselves 2. Why should you have a Synod when you have a Convocation already which is a Synod Would you have a superfetation of another Synod The Clergy of England when they cast off the Pope submitted themselves to the Civil Power and so have continued but these challenge to be Jure Divino and so to be above the Civil Power these challenge Power to call before their Presbyteries all Persons for all Sins directly against the Law of God as proved to be Sins by necessary Consequence If you would buy Gloves send for a Glover or two not Glovers-Hall consult with some Divines not send for a Body 3. There must be some Laymen in the Synod to over-look the Clergy lest they spoil the civil Work Just as when the good Woman puts a Cat into the Milk-House to kill a Mouse she sends her Maid to look after the Cat lest the Cat should eat up the Cream 4. In the Ordinance for the Assembly the Lords and Commons go under the Names of learned godly and judicious Divines there is no Difference put betwixt them and the Ministers in the Context 5. 'T is not unusual in the Assembly to revoke their Votes by reason they make so much haste but 't is that will make them scorn'd You never heard of a Council revok'd an Act of its own making they have been wary in that to keep up their Infallibility if they did any thing they took away the whole Council and yet we would be thought Infallible as any Body 'T is not enough to say the House of Commons revoke their Votes for theirs are but Civil Truths which they by agreement create and uncreate as they please But the Truths the Synod deals in are Divine and when they have voted a thing if it be then true 't was true before not true because they voted it nor does it cease to be true because they voted otherwise 6. Subscribing in a Synod or to the Articles of a Synod is no such terrible thing as they make it because If I am of a Synod 't is agreed either tacitely or expresly That which the major part determines the rest are involv'd in and therefore I subscribe though my own private Opinion be otherwise and upon the same Ground I may without scruple subscribe to what those have determin'd whom I sent though my private Opinion be otherwise having respect to that which is the Ground of all assemblies the Major part carries it Thanksgiving 1. AT first we gave Thanks for every Victory as soon as ever 't was obtained but since we have had many now we can stay a good while We are just like a Child give him a Plum he makes his Leg give him a second Plum he makes another Leg At last when his Belly is full he forgets what he ought to do then his Nurse or some body else that stands by him puts him in mind of his Duty Where 's your Leg Tythes 1. TYthes are more paid in kind in England than in all Italy and France In France they have had Impropriations a long time we had none in England till Henry the Eighth 2. To make an Impropriation there was to be the Consent of the Incumbent the Patron and the King then 't was confirm'd by the Pope Without all this the Pope could make no Impropriation 3. Or what if the Pope gave the Tythes to any Man must they therefore be taken away If the Pope gives me a Jewel will you therefore take it away from me 4. Abraham paid Tythes to Melchizedeck what then 'T was very well done of him It does not follow therefore that I must pay Tythes no more than I am bound to imitate any other Action of Abraham's 5. 'T is ridiculous to say the Tythes are God's Part and therefore the Clergy must have them Why so they are if the Laymen has them 'T is as if one of my Lady Kent's Maids should be sweeping this Room and another of them should come and take away the Broom and tell for a Reason why she should part with it 'T is my Lady's Broom As if it were not my Lady's Broom which of them soever had it 6. They consulted in Oxford where they might find the best Argument for their Tythes setting aside the Jus Divinum they were advis'd to my History of Tythes a Book so much cry'd down by them formerly in which I dare boldly say there are more Arguments for them than are extant together any where Upon this one writ me word That my History of Tythes was now become like Pleus's Hasta to wound and to heal I told him in my Answer I thought I could fit him with a better Instance 'T was possible it might undergo the same Fate that Aristotle Avicen and Averroes did in France
and both are Humane For Example suppose the Word Egg were in the Text I say 't is meant an Hen-Egg you say a Goose-Egg neither of these are exprest therefore they are Humane Inventions and I am sure the newer the Invention the worse old Inventions are best 2. If we must admit nothing but what we read in the Bible what will become of the Parliament for we do not read of that there Iudgments 1. WE cannot tell what is a Judgment of God 't is presumption to take upon us to know In time of Plague we know we want Health and therefore we pray to God to give us Health in time of War we know we want Peace and therefore we pray to God to give us Peace Commonly we say a Judgment falls upon a Man for something in him we cannot abide An Example we have in King James concerning the Death of Henry the Fourth of France one said he was kill'd for his Wenching another said he was kill'd for turning his Religion No says King James who could not abide fighting he was kill'd for permitting Duels in his Kingdom Judge 1. WE see the Pageants in Cheapside the Lions and the Elephants but we do not see the Men that carry them we see the Judges look big look like Lions but we do not see who moves them 2. Little things do great works when the great things will not If I should take a Pin from the Ground a little pair of Tongues will do it when a great Pair will not Go to a Judge to do a Business for you by no means he will not hear of it but go to some small Servant about him and he will dispatch it according to your hearts desire 3. There could be no Mischief in the Common-Wealth without a Judge Tho' there be false Dice brought in at the Groom-Porters and cheating offer'd yet unless he allow the Cheating and judge the Dice to be good there may be hopes of fair Play Juggling 1. 'T IS not Juggling that is to be blam'd but much Juggling for the World cannot be Govern'd without it All your Rhetorick and all your Elench's in Logick come within the compass of Juggling Jurisdiction 1. THere 's no such Thing as Spiritual Jurisdiction all is Civil the Churche's is the same with the Lord Mayors Suppose a Christian came into a Pagan Country how can you fancy he shall have any Power there he finds faults with the Gods of the Country well they will put him to Death for it when he is a Martyr what follows Does that argue he has any spiritual Jurisdiction If the Clergy say the Church ought to be govern'd thus and thus by the Word of God that is Doctrine all that is not Discipline 2. The Pope he challenges Jurisdiction over all the Bishops they pretend to it as well as he the Presbyterians they would have it to themselves but over whom is all this the poor Laymen Jus Divinum 1. ALL things are held by Jus Divinum either immediately or mediately 2. Nothing has lost the Pope so much in his Supremacy as not acknowledging what Princes gave him 'T is a scorn upon the Civil Power and an unthankfulness in the Priest But the Church runs to Jus divinum lest if they should acknowledge what they have by positive Law it might be as well taken from them as given to them King 1. A King is a thing Men have made for their own Sakes for quietness-sake Just as in a Family one Man is appointed to buy the Meat if every Man should buy what the other lik'd not or what the other had bought before so there would be a confusion But that Charge being committed to one he according to his Discretion pleases all if they have not what they would have one day they shall have it the next or something as good 2. The word King directs our Eyes suppose it had been Consul or Dictator to think all Kings alike is the same folly as if a Consul of Aleppo or Smyrna should claim to himself the same Power that a Consul at Rome What am not I a Consul or a Duke of England should think himself like the Duke of Florence nor can it be imagin'd that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did signifie the same in Greek as the Hebrew Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did with the Jews Besides let the Divines in their Pulpits say what they will they in their practice deny that all is the Kings They sue him and so does all the Nation whereof they are a part What matter is it then what they Preach or Teach in the Schools 3. Kings are all individual this or that King there is no Species of Kings 4. A King that claims Priviledges in his own Country because they have them in another is just as a Cook that claims Fees in one Lord's House because they are allowed in another If the Master of the House will yield them well and good 5. The Text Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's makes as much against Kings as for them for it says plainly that some things are not Caesars But Divines make choice of it first in Flattery and then because of the other part adjoyn'd to it Render unto God the things that are Gods where they bring in the Church 6. A King outed of his Country that takes as much upon him as he did at home in his own Court is as if a Man on high and I being upon the Ground us'd to lift up my voice to him that he might hear me at length should come down and then expects I should speak as loud to him as I did before King of England 1. THE King can do no wrong that is no Process can be granted against him What must be done then Petition him and the King writes upon the Petition soit droit fait and sends it to the Chancery and then the business is heard His Confessor will not tell him he can do no wrong 2. There 's a great deal of difference between Head of the Church and Supream Governour as our Canons call the King Conceive it thus there is in the Kingdom of England a Colledge of Physicians the King is Supream Governour of those but not Head of them nor President of the Colledge nor the best Physician 3. After the Dissolution of Abbies they did not much advance the King's Supremacy for they only car'd to exclude the Pope hence have we had several Translations of the Bible upon us But now we must look to it otherwise the King may put upon us what Religion he pleases 4. 'T was the old way when the King of England had his House there were Canons to sing Service in his Chappel so at Westminster in St. Stephen's Chappel where the House of Commons sits from which Canons the Street call'd Canon-row has its Name because they liv'd there and he had also the Abbot and his Monks and all these the King's House 5. The
to command that is where he must be obeyed so is every Supream Power and Prince They that stretch his Infallibility further do they know not what 5. When a Protestant and a Papish dispute they talk like two Mad-men because they do not agree upon their Principles the one way is to destroy the Pope's Power for if he hath Power to command me 't is not my alledging Reasons to the contrary can keep me from obeying For Example if a Constable command me to wear a green Suit to Morrow and has Power to make me 't is not my alledging a hundred Reasons of the Folly of it can excuse me from doing it 6. There was a Time when the Pope had Power here in England and there was excellent Use made of it for 't was only to serve Turns as might be manifested out of the Records of the Kingdom which Divines know little of If the King did not like what the Pope would have he would forbid the Pope's Legate to land upon his Ground So that the Power was truly then in the King though suffered in the Pope But now the Temporal and the Spiritual Power Spiritual so call'd because ordain'd to a Spiritual End spring both from one Fountain they are like to twist that 7. The Protestants in France bear Office in the State because though their Religion be different yet they acknowledge no other King but the King of France The Papists in England they must have a King of their own a Pope that must do something in our Kingdom therefore there is no reason they should enjoy the same Priviledges 8. Amsterdam admits of all Religions but Papists and 't is upon the same Account The Papists where e'er they live have another King at Rome all other Religions are subject to the present State and have no Prince else-where 9. The Papists call our Religion a Parliamentary Religion but there was once I am sure a Parliamentary Pope Pope Urban was made Pope in England by Act of Parliament against Pope Clement The Act is not in the Book of Statutes either because he that compiled the Book would not have the Name of the Pope there or else he would not let it appear that they medled with any such thing but 't is upon the Rolls 10. When our Clergy preach against the Pope and the Church of Rome they preach against themselves and crying down their Pride their Power and their Riches have made themselves Poor and Contemptible enough they dedicate first to please their Prince not considering what would follow Just as if a Man were to go a Journey and seeing at his first setting out the Way clean and fair ventures forth in his Slippers not considering the Dirt and the Sloughs are a little further off or how suddenly the Weather may change Popery 1. THE demanding a Noble for a dead body passing through a a Town came from hence in time of Popery they carried the dead Body into the Church where the Priest said Dirgies and twenty Dirgies at four Pence a piece comes to a Noble but now it is forbidden by an Order from my Lord Marshal the Heralds carry his Warrant about them 2. We charge the Prelatical Clergy with Popery to make them odious tho' we know they are guilty of no such thing Just as heretofore they call'd Images Mammets and the Adoration of Images Mammetry that is Mahomet and Mahometry odious Names when all the World knows the Turks are forbidden Images by their Religion Power State 1. THere is no stretching of Power 't is a good Rule Eat within your Stomach Act within your Commission 2. They that govern most make least Noise You see when they row in a Barge they that do drudgery-work slash and puff and sweat but he that governs sits quietly at the Stern and scarce is seen to stir 3. Syllables govern the World 4. All Power is of God means no more than Fides est servanda When St. Paul said this the People had made Nero Emperour They agree he to command they to obey Then Gods comes in and casts a hook upon them keep your Faith then comes in all Power is of God Never King dropt out of the Clouds God did not make a new Emperour as the King makes a Justice of Peace 5. Christ himself was a great observer of the Civil Power and did many things only justifiable because the State requir'd it which were things meerly Temporary for the time that State stood But Divines make use of them to gain Power to themselves as for Example that of Die Ecclesiae tell the Church there was then a Sanhedrim a Court to tell it to and therefore they would have it so now 6. Divines ought to do no more than what the State permits Before the State became Christian they made their own Laws and those that did not observe them they Excommunicated naughty men they suffered them to come no more amongst them But if they would come amongst them how could they hinder them By what Law by what Power they were still subject to the State which was Heathen Nothing better expresses the Condition of Christians in those times than one of the meetings you have in London of Men of the same Country of Sussex-Men or Bedfordshire-Men they appoint their Meeting and they agree and make Laws amongst themselves He that is not there shall pay double c. and if any one mis-behave himself they shut him out of their Company But can they recover a Forfeiture made concerning their Meeting by any Law Have they any power to compel one to pay but afterwards when the State became Christian all the Power was in them and they gave the Church as much or as little as they pleas'd and took away when they pleas'd and added what they pleas'd 7. The Church is not only subject to the Civil Power with us that are Protestants but also in Spain if the Church does Excommunicate a Man for what it should not the Civil Power will take him out of their Hands So in France the Bishop of Angiers alter'd something in the Breviary they complain'd to the Parliament at Paris that made him alter it again with a comme abuse 8. the Parliament of England has no Arbitrary Power in point of Judicature but in point of making Law only 9. If the Prince be servus natura of a servile base Spirit and the Subjects liberi Free and Ingenuous oft-times they depose their Prince and govern themselves On the contrary if the People be Servi Natura and some one amongst them of a Free and Ingenuous Spirit he makes himself King of the rest and this is the Cause of all changes in State Common-wealths into Monarchies and Monarchies into Common-wealths 10. In a troubled State we must do as in foul Weather upon the Thames not think to cut directly through so the Boat may be quickly full of Water but rise and fall as the Waves do give as much as conveniently we can
settled and then you may flourish upon your various Lections 14. The Apocrypha is bound with the Bibles of all Churches that have been hitherto Why should we leave it out The Church of Rome has her Apocrypha viz. Susanna and Bell and the Dragon which she does not esteem equally with the rest of those Books that we call Apocrypha Bishops before the Parliament 1. A Bishop as a Bishop had never any Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction For as soon as he was Electus Confirmatus that is after the three Proclamations in Bow-Church he might exercise Jurisdiction before he was consecrated not till then he was no Bishop neither could he give Orders Besides Suffragans were Bishops and they never claim'd any Jurisdiction 2. Anciently the Noble-Men lay within the City for Safety and Security The Bishops Houses were by the Water-side because they were held sacred Persons which no body would hurt 3. There was some Sense for Commendams at first when there was a Living void and never a Clerk to serve it the Bishops were to keep it till they found a fit Man but now 't is a Trick for the Bishop to keep it for himself 4. For a Bishop to preach 't is to do other Folks Office as if the Steward of the House should execute the Porter's or the Cook 's Place 'T is his Business to see that they and all other about the House perform their Duties 5. That which is thought to have done the Bishops hurt is their going about to bring Men to a blind Obedience imposing things upon them though perhaps small and well enough without preparing them and insinuating into their Reasons and Fancies every Man loves to know his Commander I wear those Gloves but perhaps if an Alderman should command me I should think much to do it What has he to do with me Or if he has peradventure I do not know it This jumping upon things at first Dash will destroy all To keep up Friendship there must be little Addresses and Applications whereas Bluntness spoils it quickly To keep up the Hierarchy there must be little Applications made to Men they must be brought on by little and little So in the Primitive Times the Power was gain'd and so it must be continued Scaliger said of Erasmus Si minor esse voluit major fuisset So we may say of the Bishops Si minores esse voluerint majores fuissent 6. The Bishops were too hasty else with a discreet Slowness they might have had what they aim'd at The old Story of the Fellow that told the Gentleman he might get to such a Place if he did not ride too fast would have fitted their turn 7. For a Bishop to cite an old Canon to strengthen his new Articles is as if a Lawyer should plead an old Statute that has been repeal'd God knows how long Bishops in the Parliament 1. BIshops have the same Right to sit in Parliament as the best Earls and Barons that is those that were made by Writ If you ask one of them Arundel Oxford Northumberland why they sit in the House they can only say their Fathers sate there before them and their Grandfather before him c. And so say the Bishops he that was a Bishop of this Place before me sate in the House and he that was a Bishop before him c. Indeed your latter Earls and Barons have it express'd in their Patents that they shall be called to the Parliament Objection but the Lords sit there by Blood the Bishops not Answer 'T is true they sit not there both the same way yet that takes not away the Bishops Right If I am a Parson of a Parish I have as much Right to my Gleab and Tithe as you have to your Land which your Ancestors have had in that Parish Eight Hundred Years 2. The Bishops were not Barons because they had Baronies annex'd to their Bishopricks for few of them had so unless the old ones Canterbury Winchester Durham c. the new erected we are sure had none as Glocester Peterborough c. besides few of the Temporal Lords had any Baronies But they are Barons because they are called by Writ to the Parliament and Bishops were in the Parliament ever since there was any mention or sign of a Parliament in England 3. Bishops may be judged by the Peers tho' in time of Popery it never hapned because they pretended they were not obnoxious to a secular Court but their way was to cry Ego sum Frater Domini Papae I am Brother to my Lord the Pope and therefore take not my self to be judged by you in this Case they impanell'd a Middlesex Jury and dispatch'd the Business 4. Whether may Bishops be present in Cases of Blood Answ. That they had a Right to give Votes appears by this always when they did go out they left a Proxy and in the time of the Abbots one Man had 10 20 or 30 Voices In Richard the Second's time there was a Protestation against the Canons by which they were forbidden to be present in Case of Blood The Statute of 25th of Henry the Eighth may go a great way in this Business The Clergy were forbidden to use or cite any Canon c. but in the latter End of the Statute there was a Clause that such Canons that were in usage in this Kingdom should be in force till the thirty two Commissioners appointed should make others provided they were not contrary to the King's Supremacy Now the Question will be whether these Canons for Blood were in use in this Kingdom or no the contrary whereof may appear by many Presidents in R. 3. and H. 7. and the beginning of H. 8. in which time there were more attainted than since or scarce before The Canons of Irregularity of Blood were never receiv'd in England but upon pleasure If a Lay-Lord was attainted the Bishops assented to his Condemning and were always present at the passing of the Bill of Attainder But if a Spiritual Lord they went out as if they car'd not whose Head was cut off so none of their own In those Days the Bishops being of great Houses were often entangled with the Lords in Matters of Treason But when d' ye hear of Bishop a Traytor now 5. You would not have Bishops meddle with Temporal Affairs think who you are that say it If a Papist they do in your Church if an English Protestant they do among you if a Presbyterian where you have no Bishops you mean your Presbyterian Lay-Elders should meddle with temporal Affairs as well as Spiritual Besides all Jurisdiction is Temporal and in no Church but they have some Jurisdiction or other The Question then will be reduced to Magis and Minus They meddle more in one Church than in another 6. Objection Bishops give not their Votes by Blood in Parliament but by an Office annext to them which being taken away they cease to vote therefore there is not the same Reason for them as for