the Doctrin of the Reformation or consistent with its principles Isaac The Kings Supremacy is undoubtedly the Doctrin of the Reformation because it 's judged by the Church of England to be of Scripture yet not only the Quakers Presbyterians Anabaptists and other Congregations judge it 's not of Scripture but as erroneous a Tenet as that of the Popes Supremacy Calvin 6. Amos says They were unadvised people and Blasphemers who raised King Henry the VII so far as to call him the head of the Church but also that no Civil Magistrate can be the head of any particular Church is the Doctrin of the Centuriators cent sept pag. 11. of Cartwright Viretus Kemnitius and many others who doubts then but that in the principles and Doctrin of the Reformation you may deny the Kings Supremacy tho' the Church of England believes it The Popes Supremacy is the Doctrin of Popery who doubts it but it 's also the Doctrin of the Reformation for many of our Eminent Doctors have judged it to be the Doctrine of Scripture as Whitgift who cites Calvin and Musculus for this opinion but it 's needful we relate some of their express words I do not deny says Luther but the Bishop of Rome is has been and ought to be first of all I believe he is above all other Bishops it 's not lawful to deny his Supremacy Melancthon says no less that the Bishop of Rome is above all the Church that it is his office to govern to Judge in controversies to watch over the Priests to keep all Nations in conformity and unity of Doctrin Somaisius The Pope of Rome has been without controversie the first Metropolitan in Italy and not only in Italy nor only in the West but in all the World the other Metropolitans have been chief in their respective districts but the Pope of Rome has been Metropolitan and Primate not only of some particular Diocess but of all Grotius has expresly the same Doctrin and proves this Supremacy belongs to the Pope de Jure Divino I pray consider if these Doctors be not men of sound Judgment and of eminent learning and credit in our Reformation and if our Doctrin be Scripture as such men understand it consider I say with what Justice can this Doctrin be called Popery more than Reformed Doctrin As for Transubstantiation it contains two difficulties first if the Body of Christ be really in the Sacrament and this real presence the Lutherans defend to be the Doctrin of Scripture as well as the Papists why then should it be called Popish more than Reformed Doctrin The second is if the substance of Bread be in the Sacrament together with Christ's Body Lutherans say it is Papists say it is not but that there is a Transubstantiation or change of the whole substance of Bread into the Body of Christ but hear what Luther says of this that we call Popish Doctrin I give all Persons liberty to believe in this point what they please without hazard of their Salvation either that the Bread is in the Sacrament of the Altar or that it is not would Luther have given this liberty if Transubstantiation had not been the Doctrin of the Reformation as well as any other Calvin also and Beza affirm that Luthers Doctrin of the co-existence of Christ's Body and the Bread is more absurd than the Popish Doctrin of the existence of the Body alone if therefore we be true Reformed and safely believe the Doctrin of Luther which is the most absurd much more will we be of the Reformation by believing that of the Papists which is less Communion in one kind is the Doctrin of the Reformation no less than Communion in both for besides that Luther says They Sin not against Christ who use one kind only seeing Christ has not commanded to use both and again though it were an excellent thing to use both kinds in the Sacrament and Christ has commanded nothing in this as necessary yet it were better to follow peace and unity than to contest about the kinds but also Melancthon who in the opinion of Luther surpasses all the Fathers of the Church expresly teaches the same Doctrin and the Church of England Statute I. Edward VI. command That the Sacrament be commonly administr'd in both kinds if necessity does not require otherwise mark he says but commonly and that for some necessity it may be received in one lastly the sufficiency of one kind in the Sacrament is plainly set down by our Reformed Church of France in her Ecclesiastical Discipline printed at Saumur Chap. 12. Art. 7. The Minister must give the Bread in the Supper to them who cannot drink the Cup provided it be not for contempt And the reason is because there are many who cannot endure the taste of Wine wherefore it often happens among them that some persons do take the Bread alone and truly if some of our Ministers in England do not give better Wine than they are accustomed who very irreverently serve that Holy Table with naughty trash it 's much to be feared that our flock will also petition to be dispenc'd with in the Cup because there are some of so delicate Palats that they cannot endure the taste of bad Wine Now you may admire the injustice of the Papists in Condemning our Reformed Doctrin and Doctors as Hereticks whereas those Tenets are believed by many of us as well as by them and the groundless severity of our Congregations in exclaiming against that Doctrin it being the Doctrin of the Reformation whereas so many eminent men of our own judge it to be of Scripture Ismael Whereas I see people persecuted by the Church of England for these Tenets I can hardly be perswaded they are the Doctrin of the Reformation at our next meeting we will persue this discourse the Bell rings for Morning Prayers A Dieu Seventh DIALOGUE ISAAC You come from Church as I guess by the Common-Prayer Book I see in your hand I pray let me see the Kalender of it if it be a la mode nouvelle which was made by the Church of England since his Majesties Restauration Ismael Why have you met any thing in it which shocks you Isaac Shock me No Doctrin or practice of any Congregation or man of sound Judgment of our Church can shock me you know I plead for liberty to believe and practise as each one judges by Scripture to be true and good But I observe in your Kalender you have a day consecrated to St. Ann in the Month of July I would gladly know what Ann this is which the Church of England honours so much Ismael It 's Ann the Mother of the Virgin Mary Isaac It 's possible I thought it was Ann Bolein the Mother of our Virgin Elizabeth I am sure the Church of England is more obliged to Her than to the other but as you have put here the Mother of the Virgin
of England Pag. 103. Which is but an Exposition of 39 Articles Our Rule of Faith is but Scripture as each Person of sound Judgment in the Church understands it Authority is given to the Church and to each Person of sound Judgment in it to judge in Controversies of Faith and this is not the the private Judgment of our Church but also of our Brethren of Foreign Countries Ismael I confess not only these but many other Doctors abet your discourse and the General Vogue of our Reformation is for Scripture as each one understands it but alas You see well that we can never settle any Religion or Church by such a Rule of Faith. Isaac You can never settle any but this That every Man may without let or hinderance believe what be pleases And why should not this be a good Religion If Scripture as each one understands it be not our Rule of Faith if we must be constrained to believe Scripture not as we understand it but as it is understood by this or that Congregation what difference betwixt us and Papists They must believe Scripture as Interpreted by the Pope and Councils have ever so much light from God be ever so wise and witty you must depose your own Judgment and submit to that of the Pope Council and Popish Church To this pass we are come also we must believe the Kings Supremacy Episcopacy Figurative Presence tho perhaps we do not Judge by Scripture it to be true Doctrine we are constrained by Penal Laws and and Acts of Parliament to believe them as Papists by their Inquisition and why Because the Church of England understands by Scripture it 's true and if you reply you do not Interpret Scripture so you 'll not be heard you must submit and believe against your Judgment and what 's this but plain Popish Tyranny over Mens Consciences Did Luther and Calvin forsake the Pope and Councils for to submit their Judgments to any other No but to follow Scripture as each one of them understood it And tho' Luther was a Man raised by God and replenish'd with his Spirit to repair the ruins of the Church yet Calvin did no more submit to him than Luther did to the Pope nor did Zuinglius submit to Calvin but followed his own sense of Scripture nor did Oeclampadius submit to Zuinglius but every one searched the Scripture believed and taught what they thought to be true and thus we became a Reformation of Popery If therefore we will continue a Reformation and walk by the Spirit of our blessed Reformers we must not be constrained to believe any Mans sense of Scripture We must believe whatever we think to be true and have no other Rule of Faith but Scripture as each one understands it Ismael And what then What do you infer from this discourse Isaac This consequence that whereas no true Child of the Reformation be he of what Congregation he will can justly deny our Rule of Faith to be Scripture as any person of sound Judgment Interprets it it follows unavoidably that the Doctrine of the Reformation is Whatever any person of Judgment Interprets to be the true sense of Scripture and whatever Luther Calvin Beza or any other of sound judgment in the Reformation since its first rise until this day taught to be the true sence of Scripture is to be called and esteemed the Doctrine of the Reformation tho' to this or that Congregation it may seem to be wicked and scandalous Doctrine And now let me answer to an Objection you made against this Principle in our entrance to this discourse You objected that many Popish Doctors and Casuists delivered scandalous and base Doctrines which the Papists will not admit to be the Doctrin of their Church tho' delivered by popish Doctors and thence you pretended that the particular sentiments of private Doctors of the Reformation are not to be called the Doctrin of our Church But be pleased to observe the difference betwixt Popery and our Reformation the Rule of Faith in Popery is Scripture as Interpreted by the Pope and Council or their Church they will admit no other consequently no Doctrin is to be called Popery but what is Judged by the Pope and his Church or Council to be the sense of Scripture and if any Doctor or University holds any sense contrary to theirs it is to be called the Doctrin of that particular person and not the Doctrin of the popish Church because their Rule of Faith is not Scripture as Interpreted by their Pope and Council But whereas our Rule of Faith in the Reformation is Scripture as each person of sound judgment Interprets it whatever Doctrin or Sense is said by any Man to be of Scripture is justly to be called the Doctrine of the Reformation For example Melancthon a Man of sound Judgmen great Learning and of an upright Conscience Taught Bigamy to be the Doctrine of Scripture Beza Taught the Lords Supper might be administer'd a in any kind of Victuals as well as in Bread and Wine Calvin Taught that Christ despaired on the Cross and suffer'd the pains of Hell after his Death Why then let all the Bishops and Universities of England condemn this Doctrine let all the Synods of France and Germany decry it the Doctrine will be still of the Reformation because it 's Scripture as Interpreted by Men of sound Judgment Ismael The heat of your discourse has tired you and my memory is sufficiently loaden with what you have said let me digest it in my private retirement and we will meet again Isaac Content carry with you these three points which I have proved convincingly First our Rule of Faith is Scripture not as Interpreted by this or that but by any Man of sound Judgment Secondly it follows hence that the Doctrine of the Reformation must be and ought to be called whatever any Man of sound Judgment says is the sense of Scripture Thirdly it follows we may change Religions as often as we please Third Dialogue ISMAEL I remember well the summary of your last discourse given me in three points and I find the second to be absurd and repugnant to reason you 'll never perswade it tho' you pleaded for it with great energy what if a silly Woman Cobler or other Tradesmen read Scripture and give their sense of it that forsooth must be called the Doctrine of the Reformation And it shall be lawful for them to believe it against the Doctrine of the whole Church Isaac Do not limit Gods infinite goodness by measuring his mercies towards his Creatures with your narrow apprehensions Take notice he says he has chosen the weak and contemptible of the World for to confound the strong ones I confess unto you Father that you have hid these things from the Wise and Prudent and hast revealed them to the little ones And there he choose poor simple Fishermen to his Apostles I know it 's the practice of Papists and from them your
most of our Congregations do absolutely deny any Right in our Clergy to those Rents because they are no Clergy Yeâ— none will be so bold as to accuse Henry the VIII of Sacrilege for having taken the Church-living from them for to put them to better use And why should we dare say our King would commit any for depriving our Clergy of those Rents Believe he can lawfully do it or believe he cannot you 'll be still a good Child of the Reformation Believe what you please Ismael This is a ticklish point let 's leave it to the consideration of our wise and prudent Parliament and be pleased to answer to my doubt How can we live in peace and tranquility in Religion if our Rule of Faith be Scripture as each one understands it I remember a discourse started in the House of Lords not many Years ago by his Grace the Duke of Buckingham he desired to know what it was to be a Protestant wherein did Protestancy properly consist The Bishops who were present looked one upon another and whether they feared the difficulty of the Question or that for modesty's sake each expected to hear another speak first they stood silent for a while at last the Ice was broken by one others followed but hardly any two agreed and all that the Duke could gather out of their several answers was That our Rule of Faith was Scripture as each one understood it and Protestancy nothing but Scripture as Interpreted by the Parliament and Church of England Whereupon he concluded We have been these hundred Years very busie for to settle Religion and for ought I perceive we are as unsettled nâ—w as at the beginning And truly he had great reason for Religion and Faith is nothing else but that sense of Scripture which each person of sound Judgment understands and as it 's impossible we should all jump and agree in one sense and meaning of the Text so it 's impossible we shall ever be settled and agree in Religion Isaac The reason of our unsettlement hitherto and at present is the violent efforts what by Persecutions Acts of Parliaments and other Oppressions what by Invectives Intrigues and Cabals of the Church of Engand to draw all to be Protestants of the Presbyterians to make us deny Episcopacy and of each other Congregation to force us to their respective Tenets And whilst this constraint and severity is used against Mens Consciences it 's in vain to expect peace or settlement in our Reformed Church But let us follow the Rule of Faith let each one believe as in his Conscience he best understands Scripture let us all believe what we please and be permitted so to do and we shall without doubt enjoy perfect Peace and Tranquillity Believe you Figurative Presence if you will let the Lutheran believe his Real Presence if he likes it and let me believe no Presence at all if I judge there 's none why will not you permit me to follow that Rule of Faith which the whole Reformation even the Church of England gives me in her 39 Articles Scripture as each person of sound Judgment understands it To say we can never have settlement in Religion whilst this arbitrary Interpretation of Scripture is permitted is to speak like a Papist This the Pope and Papists said to our first blessed Reformers and the Popish Church says this day to us That we ought to submit our judgments to the Church and Councils that we ought not to believe what sense we think to be true but what the Pope and Councils propose unto us and if Luther and our other Reformers did not do ill in following their own Sense and Interpretation of Scripture against all the World why do you blame me or any other for following their example Ismael When you speak of our Reformation and Congregations I hear you reckon the Arians Socinians and Antitrinitarians among them sure you do not believe they or such like ancient condemned Hereticks were of the Reformation for we Protestants do believe the Mystery of the Trinity against them and will never own them to be our Brethren Isaac And do not you believe Episcopacy against the Presbyterians some Canonical Books against the Lutherans Supremacy against the Quakers and Infants Baptism against the Anabaptists and yet you own them as your Brethren and Godly Congregations of the Reformation or if you will deny them they will also scorn you and say they are more of the Reformation than you are and why will you not own the Arians c. as your Brethren tho' you believe the Trinity against them You say they are Old condemn'd Hereticks and does this Language become a Child of the Reformed Church By whom were they condemn'd Was it not by the Popish Church which also condemns us and says we are as much Hereticks as they and as we ought not to be so called and judge the Pope and Councils Sentence against us to be bold uncharitable and unjust so we must say of the Arians Pelagians and others condemn'd by them You say Protestants will never own them to be their Brethren God forbid the Protestant Church should be so uncharitable to their fellow Christians and so unjust to themselves B. Morton as I cited in my first Dialogue as learned a Man as the Church of England bred says the Arian Church is a true Church and will say no less of the others But what need we the Testimony of any for what reason so convincingly proves They who walk by one and the same Rule of Faith are of one and the same Religion therefore Lutherans Protestants Presbyterians and Independants do esteem themselves to be of the same Faith and Religion because they all have the same Rule which is Scripture as each Congregation understands it Also notwithstanding the difference and variety of Congregations in Popery they hold all but one Faith as they say because they have all but one Rule of their Belief which is their infallible Pope and Church But it 's evident that those which you call Antient condemn'd Hereticks have one and the same Rule of Faith with our Reformation for ours is Scripture as each person of sound Judgment understands it without any obligation of holding the Sense of it delivered by Pope Church Councils or any other therefore our first blessed Reformers did not care what Sense of it the Church or Pope did hold when they began to Preach the purity of the Gospel but each of them Interpreted it as he thought sit in the Lord and so purged the Church of many Errours This is the very self same Rule of Faith which Arians Pelagians Nestorians and others peremptorily condemned by Rome as Hereticks did follow and walk by Each of them Read and Interpreted Scripture Preached and Believed what Sense of it they thought to be true tho' they knew it was against the Doctrine of the Church looking on Scripture alone as their Rule of Faith without any regard of the Pope
and have a Mind to spend your Monys because he Preaches the Doctrine of the Reformation or you may laugh at him and believe not a word he says because he Preaches against the Doctrine of the Reformation Ismael These are dangerous and scandalous Tenets destructive of Piety and Christianity and let Luther and those Authors you quoted say what they please the Reformation nor no honest Man will ever believe such abominable Doctrine Isaac I do not say that the Children of the Reformation are obliged to believe them They may believe as you do that all are wicked Tenets But if Luther and the others cited judge in their Conscience these Tenets to be the Doctrine of Scriptures and if Peter John or James like their Interpretation I say they may according to the Principles of our Reformation believe them and be as truly Reformed Children as you for our Rule of Faith is Scripture as each Person of sound Judgment understands it and in believing those Tenets because they judge them to be the Doctrine of Scripture they stick fast to and follow our Rule of Faith Why is Figurative Presence and the Kings Supremacy the Doctrine of the Reformation tho' denied by Papists Lutherans and Presbyterians but because the Protestants judg it's the Doctrine of Scripture If therefore those great Authors I quoted and any other with them judge those Tenets to be the Doctrine of Scripture they can be justly called the Doctrine of the Reformation Must Protestants be forced against their Judgments to deny real Presence and Supremacy because Lutherans say it's wicked Doctrine And why must Luther Illiricus Flaccius and others be forced to deny those Tenets tho' Protestants or Papists judge them to be damnable Let each one believe what he thinks to be the Doctrine of Scripture and he will still be a true Reformed Child Ismael Does not our Reformation teach that 't is possible to all Men assisted with God's Grace to keep the Commandments Isaac This is the Doctrine of the Church of England and consequently of the Reformation It 's also the Doctrine of the Reformation delivered out of Scripture as Interpreted by Luther Calvin Willet and several others that it 's impossible to any man assisted with what Grace soever to keep the Commandments None has ever yet says our great Calvin and God has decreed none shall ever keep the Commandments Again The Law and Commandments were given us to no other end but that we should be damn'd by them inasmuch that it is impossible for Vs to do what they command The same Doctrine is taught by Luther in several places of his Works by Willet and by our Brethren the Gomarists of Holland and many of our French Synods Believe which you please both Doctrines are of the Reformation It 's also the Doctrine of Luther and Calvin that God does not cast men into Hell because their sins deserve it nor save men because they merit it but meerly because he will have it for He crowns those who have not deserved it says Luther and he punishes those who have not deserved it 't is Gods Wrath and Severity to damn the one 't is Gods Grace and Mercy to save the other Calvin also Men are damn'd for no other cause but because God will have it so he is the cause and Author of their Damnation their Damnation is decreed by God when when they are in their Mothers Womb because he will have it so this is also the belief of our Gomarists in Holland of many French Churches and of several learned Calvinists though the Church of England denies this Doctrine none will dare say it is not the Doctrine of the Reformation because it is Scripture as Interpreted by such eminent men of our Church Ismael I will never believe such execrable Doctrines nor will I ever be of any Congregation which believes them Isaac I do not advise you to believe them but to give others leave to believe them if they think them to be the Doctrine of Scripture as Luther Calvin Willet Gomarists and others do You must not if you be a true Reformed Child hinder any man from believing nor be displeased with him for believing what he Judges in his Conscience to be the Doctrine of Scripture for this is our Rule of Faith. Will not you be of the Congregation and Religion of those who follow Scripture as their Rule of Faith and Believe what they Judge in their Conscience to be the Doctrine of Scripture Ismael Yes I will and am of such a Congregation for this is the Rule of Faith of the Reformation Isaac Why then you must be of the same Congregation with the Gomarists Luther Calvin and the others who believe those which you call execrable Doctrines because they follow Scripture as they understand and believe those Doctrines because they Judge them to be of Scriture You both follow the same Rule one goes one way and the other another and both are of the Reformation The Church of England understands by Scripture that God is not the Author nor cause of Sin that he does not force us to Sin who doubts but that this is therefore the Doctrine of the Reformation But Calvin Brentius Beza and several others understand by Scripture That God is the cause and Author which forces our Will to Sin That Man and the Devil are but Gods Instruments to commit it That Murthers Incests Blasphemies c. are the Works of God that he makes us commit them And who doubts but this also is the Doctrine of the Reformation being Scripture as Interpreted by such eminent and sound Judgment God says Calvin directs moves inclines and forces the Will of Man to Sin insomuch that the power and efficacy of Working is wholly in him Man nay and Satan when he impells us being only Gods Instruments which he uses for to make us Sin. Zuinglius Willet Beza teach the same Sixth Dialogue ISMAEL I am weary of hearing such horrid Blasphemies my Heart trembles to hear you say that such abominable Tenets may be believed according to our Rule of Faith and Principles of the Reformation I beseech you let me hear no more of such stuff I conceive very well that Mens Judgments and Consciences are not to be constrain'd to believe or deny this or that Tenet because the Pope or his Infallible forsooth Church will have it so Isaac And must they be constrain'd to deny or believe because the fallible Church of England or France will have it so Ismael No I do not say they must have Patience and hear me speak a while I say that Scripture must be our Rule of Faith and not any Pope or Church or Congregation and that we are not to be forced by any to believe but what we understand to be true by Scripture and that if we Judge by Scripture any Doctrine to be false and contrary to Gods Word we must not be forced to believe it But we must
not abuse this Liberty That we should have Liberty for to believe or deny Supremacy Figurative Presence Communion in one or both Kinds and such other inferiour Truths controverted among Christians and that each Congregation may in such Articles believe as it understands by Scripture to be true may pass and it 's practised in our Reformed Churches But that we should run so far as to have Liberty by our Rule of Faith to believe or deny the Fundamental and Chief Articles of Christianity as the Trinity Incarnation Divinity of Christ amp c. That Liberty ought not to be given Our Reformation very wisely and piously permits the Lutherans to believe one thing the Presbyterians another the Protestants another and so of the rest And all are true Reformed Children because each of them believes as they Judge by Scripture to be true But the Reformation has never given nor never will give Liberty to interpret Scripture against the fundamental Article of Christianity We must be moderate and keep our rambling Fancies within Compass and if any should judge and interpret Scripture in favour of any scandalous and abominable Tenets against Christianity and good Manners he must be checked and not commended This Moderation the Church of England uses and will never permit to the contrary Isaac I perceive a great deal of Popish Blood to run in your Veins and that if you and your Church of England were in Power at the beginning of our Reformation we should never have had a Luther Calvin Beza or such other noble and renowned Reformers By what I gather from your discourse I do not see the breadth of an Inch's difference betwixt the Church of Rome and you and your Church of England for the Church of Rome will not stick to grant that Gods Word alone is her Rule of Faith but so that none must believe any sense of it but as she believes it nor Interpret any Text but receive her Interpretation of it The Church of England has Scripture for her Rule of Faith and gives us Liberty for to Interpret Understand and Believe some Text of it as each one thinks best and so permits Presbyterians to deny Episcopacy Lutherans to deny Figurative Presence c. and confesses they are all her Brethren of the Reformation but she will give no Liberty at all for to Interpret other Texts but all must understand them as she does or all must Hereticks and damn'd Men No that Text My Father and I are one must be Interpreted to signifie the Unity In Nature of the Father and Son as the Church of England believes none must Interpret it otherwise So that the difference betwixt the Popish Church and that of England is the first gives us no Liberty at all the second gives us some Liberty the first robs us of all the second but the one half The Rule of Faith in Popery is Scripture as Interpreted by the Pope and Councils the Rule of Faith in England as to some Articles is Scripture as Interpreted by the Church of England and as to other Articles Scripture as each person of sound Judgment understands it And thus Protestants are but half Papists and half Reformed and both these ingredients will never make a good compound Let any unbyass'd and impartial Man Judge if the Church of England proceeds justly in this For if our Rule of Faith be Scripture as each Person of sound Judgment understands it as she mentions in her 39. Articles and as the whole Reformation believes if we are not to be constrained to believe any Church Council or Mans sense of Scripture if we do not Judge by the Word of God it 's true by what Authority Rule or Reason can the Church of England give me Liberty to understand and believe some Texts as I please and deny me Liberty for to understand and believe others as I Judge by Scripture they ought to be understood I pray observe well this Discourse here are Luther Calvin Beza Zuinglius and our other first Reformers they Interpret some Texts against the Doctrine of Rome and others against the Doctrine of the Church of England They are praised for the first and esteemed Apostolical Reformers because without any regard of what the Church of Rome said they freely taught and believed what they Judged by Scripture to be true why must not they be praised and esteemed true Reformers also for not regarding what the Church of England or any other says but teach the impossibility of Gods Commandments the sufficiency of Faith alone and all those other Tenets which you so much mislike since they Judge by Scripture that to be the true Doctrine Are they bound to submit their Judgments to the Church of England more than to that of Rome Ismael But in those Tenets they do not only contradict the Church of England but all Christian Churches and Congregations for all will say those are wicked and scandalous Doctrines Isaac And if they Judge by Scripture that those Tenets are not such but found and good Doctrine may not they believe them tho' all the World and ten Worlds did gainsay them Is not Scripture our Rule of Faith and are we to regard what any Church or all Churches say further than we find by Scripture that they say well But being these Tenets which you call horrid Blasphemies displease you I 'll change my discourse and because I see you are Popishly inclin'd I will shew you how by the Principles of our Reformation you can be as good a Papist as the Pope one Principle excepted wherein you must dissent from the Church of Rome if you intend to remain a true Reformed Child Ismael You promise too much and more than I desire to know I don't desire to have any Communication with the Pope I know by the Writings of our Authors what kind of Beast he is Isaac By your favour you may believe the Popes are Worthy Honest and Godly Men many Doctors of our Reformation and our Travellers to the Court of Rome give this Testimony of them You may also believe that Popes and Cardinals are Knaves and Atheists who look on Scripture as a Romance and deny the Incarnation of Christ for Calvin says so and would never have said it if it had not been true But beware not to speak so in Rome or they 'll lodge you where Honest Taylor the Quaker was nor in Spain or they 'll stop your Mouth with an Inquisition faggot Ismael I care not what the Pope or Cardinals are but I would gladly know what Religion and Congregation you are of for whereas you are my immediate Instructer it behoves me to know what Religion you have Isaac As to my Religion I doubt not but that my Readers will be divided in their Judgments of me if a Papist reads me he 'll swear I am an Atheist but I hope he will not pretend to be infallible as his Pope if a Protestant he 'll say I am a Papist and that my drift
Mary why did not you put in also Elizabeth Mother of the great Baptist and the Angel Gabriel as well as Michael Ismael I know not indeed Isaac Nor do I know if it be not because that Elizabeth and Gabriel made the Popish Ave Maria as Scripture relates but can you tell as the Church of England put in your Kalender St. George St. Andrew and St. David Patrons of England Scotland and Wales why did not she put in St. Patrick Patron of Ireland Ismael I can't tell What may be the reason think you Isaac I know not if it be not that he forfeited his place for his Purgatory for tho the others were as deep in Popery as he if we believe the Papists but the Parliament pass'd an Act of Indemnity for England Scotland and Wales after the Kings return to his Kingdoms and thereby the sin of Popery was forgiven to their Patrons and no Act of Indemnity was past for Ireland whereby Patrick is still guilty if it be not that the Seven Champions of Christendom tell us St. Patrick was St. George his Footman and it was not thought good manners to put him in the same rank with his Master Ismael For shame if not for pitty forbear I cannot endure to fully Sacred things with profane Ralleries the Kalender is a holy institution of the Church and ought to be reverenc'd Isaac And so is Episcopacy Surplices Bells Organs and Corner Caps yet I hope you will give Presbyterians Anabaptists Quakers c. leave to laugh at them and be still as good Children of the Reformation as you if you esteem them to be Sacred and Holy reverence and honour them I commend you for it if others Judge otherwise let them follow their humour each one as he fancies says the Fellow kissing his Com this is the holy Liberty of the Reformation Scripture as each one understands it Ismael Let us return to our last discourse how is it possible that those Tenets of Popery â—…ould be the Doctrin of the Reformation whereâ—â— we see the Church of England so severely perâ—â—ecute the Professors of them Isaac Do you think a Doctrin is not of the Reformation because it 's denyed by the Church of England or because she persecutes the Proâ—essors of it do not they persecute all Non-conforâ—ists as well as Popery persecution is no proof of a Doctrin to be bad it 's but the effect of a blind zeal armed with power for to know cerâ—ainly if a Doctrin be of the Reformation you must try it by our Test or Rule of Faith which is the written Word of God and whatever any man of sound Judgment of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in Scripture or â—n indubitable consequence out of it that man may believe that Doctrin let all others Judge of it as they list and by so believing will be a true Child of the Reformation wherefore since that the Church of France that of England in Edward the VI 's time Luther Melancthon Grotius and the other Authors I quoted do Judge Transubstantiation Popes Supremacy and Communion in one kind to be the Doctrin of Scripture we must call it the Doctrin of the Reformation and if you judge as they did you may believe the Doctrin and be still of the Reformation as well as they Ismael Can you shew me any other Tenet of Popery which you can call the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Alas you can hardly shew me any Tenet of Popery but what is it's Doctrin what Doctrin more Popish than that of Confession and Absolution from sins yet it 's as truly the Doctrin of the Reformation as figurative Presence for not only Lobechius Altamerus Sacerius and Melancthon says it 's a Sacrament but the Church of England in our Common-Prayer Book declares that Priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiven to the Penitents but also the power of forgiving them and sets down the form of Absolution which the Minister is to use Our Lord Jesus Christ who left power to the Church to absolve all sinners which truly repent of his mercy forgive thee and thine offences and I by his Authority committed unto me do absolve thee from all thy sins The Minister of the Diocess of of Lincoln in their Survey of the Book of Common Prayers checkt this Doctrine as Popery and petitioned to have it blotted out but could not prevail whereby we are given to understand it 's the Doctrine of the Reformation It 's Popery we say to call extream Uuction Confirmation and Holy Order of Priest-hood Sacraments and who can justly deny all this to be the Doctrine of the Re-formation for Calvin says I confess the Disciples of Christ did use Exâ—ream Vnction as a Sacrament I am not says he of the opinion of those who judge it was only a Meâ—â—cine for corporal diseases Calvin also and with him our Common Prayer Book and all our Divines say a Sacrament is nothing else but a Visible sign of the invisible Grace we receive by â—t and they say with Pouel Hooker and others that this definition fits exactly Confirmation wherefore the Ministers of the Diocess of Lincoln checkt the Common Prayer Book for giving the Definition of a Sacrament to Confirmation Melancthon Bilsom Hooker and Calvin expresly teach that the Order of Priesthood is a Sacrament And when men of so eminent Judgment of our Reformation teach this to be the Doctrine of Scripture who doubts but that it is of the Reformation Ismael By this you destroy the Doctrine of the Reformation of two Sacraments only Is Destroy it God forbid Because the Church of England says there are but two Sacraments I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are but two and because so many eminent Men judge by Scripture there are more I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are more that 's to say six Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance Extream Unction and Holy Order and very likely our Bishops and Ministers for their Wives sake will not stick to grant that Matrimony also is a Sacrament Ismael But can you say that Prayers to Saints and Images Prayer for the dead and Purgatory are not meer Popery and in no wise the the Doctrine of Reformation Isaac Without doubt those Tenets are Popery but all the World knows the Lutherans use Images in their Churches and pray before them and the Holy Synod of Charenton has declared as was said in our first Dialogue that the Lutherans have nothing of Superstition or Idolatry in their manner of Divine Worship this is also the Doctrine of Jacobus Andreas Brachmanus Kemnitius Luther and Brentius quoted by Beza and why should not a Doctrine Judged by such eminent Men to be of Scripture be called the Doctrin of the Reformation Prayers for the dead and Purgatory is Popery confessedly but alas it is taught expresly
by Vrbans Regius Bucer Zuinglius Melancthon Luther the Common-Prayer Book in King Edward's time Printed 1549. and many others of our Learned Doctors and what can you call more properly the Doctrine of the Reformation than what such Men teach to be the Doctrine of Scripture And though our Brethren Quakers Anabaptists Presbyterians and Protestants Judge Prayers to Angels and Saints to be nothing else but Popery yet our Common-Prayer Book has the same Collect or Prayer to Angels in St. Michael's day that the Popish Mass Book has and desires that the Angels may succour and defend us on earth and Prayers to and Intercession of Saints is taught by Luther y Bilneus and Latimer quoted by Fox and consequently it 's the Doctrine of the Reformation Ismael If all these Popish Articles may be safely believed by the Reformation and be the Doctrine of our Reformed Church as well as of Popery what difference then betwixt us and Popery or why are we call'd a Reformation of Popery or why did we separate from them Isaac I have told you already that our difference from Popery is not because we must deny what they believe for we believe as well as they the Unity and Trinity of God the Incarnation of his Son c. but in this that the Papists believe because the Pope and Church says this is true revealed Doctrine but we believe not because any Church Pope or Doctor says so but because we our selves judge by Scripture it is so for if a Papist did say I do not believe this is a revealed Truth because the Pope and Church says it is but because I find by Scripture it is he would be no Papist believe then whatever Doctrine you will either Popery Judaism Protestancy Arianism or what else you please provided you judge by Scripture it is true and that you believe it not because this or that Church Congregations or Doctors believe it but because your self judges it to be true you 'l be a true Child of the Reformation And this is the reason why we are called a Reformation and why we separated from them because they would have us take for our Rule of Faith Scripture as interpreted by them and believe not what we judge to be the Doctrine of Scripture but what they judge and this is also the Reason why Presbyterians are jealous with the Church of England why Anabaptisâ—s forsake Presbyterians why these are forsaken by Quakers because each one would have the World judge as they do and persecute and trouble one another which is quite against the Spirit of the Reformation for whereas our Rule of Faith is no Church Congregation or Man but Scripture as each one understands it it follows that by our principles every one must he permitted to believe whatever he pleases and by so doing he will be a true Child of the Reformation Ismael The Church of England nor any of our Congregations will never believe any of those Popist Tenets Isaac The time may come that they may believe them all and be still as good Reformers as now they are For if the Pope and his Church should to morrow deny and excommunicate those Tenets which now they so steadfastly believe and I hope they will some day then it would be a pious and virtuous action in all Reformed Children to believe them all as much as now they deny them And let us pretend what other reasons we please but it 's very certain that the strongest reason we can have to deny those Articles is because the Pope and his Church believes them and consequently if the Popish Church would but deny them we might and ought to believe them you will think this a Paradox but listen to our Apostolical and Divine Luther If a general Council says he did permit Priests to Marry it would be a singular marke of Piety and sign of Godliness in that case to take Concubines rather than to Marry in conformity to the Decree of the Council I would in that case command Priests not to Marry under pain of damnation And again he says If the Council should Decree Communion in both kinds in contempt of the Council I would take one only or none See these words of Luther quoted by our learned Hospinian and Jewel and see it 's not only my Doctrine but of great Luther that in case the Pope and Council deny all the Tenets they now believe we may and it will be a pious godly action to believe them and make as many Acts of Parliament for them as now we have against them But what 's the matter Methinks you become pale something troubles you speak what is it Ismael It 's the horror I conceive against your discourse my countenance cannot be in a calm when my mind is in such a storm and confusion pursue no more you said enough that I should curse the day I have ever seen you or heard that which you call Holy Liberty which is but a prostitution of Consciences a prophanation of all that is sacred and an open gap to all impiety in Doctrine and Manners But I hope the Lord has given me that profound respect and attach to our Holy Reformation that I shall not be beaten from it by all your Engines able to inspire a contempt and hatred of it to any weak Brother for who would live a moment in it if such impious Tenets such scandalous and blasphemous Doctrines were of it or were unavoidable sequels out of its Principles No no the principles of the Reformed Church are sound and Orthodox and no Doctrine can follow from them but what 's pure and true Isaac Let me tell you I have as tender a love for the Reformation as you And I will maintain the Holy Liberty I assert cannot justly be called a prostitution of Consciences for you dare not deny but this is an Orthodox and sound principle that our Rule of Faith is Scripture as each person of sound Judgment understands it that it is lawful for each person of sound Judgment to read it to give his Judgment of the true sense of it and to believe and hold that sense of it which he thinks in his Conscience to be true is there any prostitution of Consciences in this Doctrin Or is it not the Doctrin of our Reformation Ismael All this is true the prostitution of Consciences lyes not there but in the scandalous and blasphemous Tenets which you pretend that follow out of the Rule of Faith. Isaac But you wrong the Reformation in calling such Tenets blasphemies and scandals For since our Rule of Faith is Scripture as each Person of sound Judgment understands it if this Rule of Faith be good and sound if it be Religious and Holy any Doctrin that is conformable to this Rule must be good sound religious and holy this being our Rule of Faith and Manners it 's clearer than day light that all and each other Tenet