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A19658 A deliberat answere made to a rash offer, which a popish Antichristian catholique, made to a learned protestant (as he saieth) and caused to be publyshed in printe: Anno. Do[mini] 1575 Wherein the Protestant hath plainly [and] substantially prooued, that the papists that doo nowe call themselues Catholiques are in deed antichristian schismatiks; and that the religious protestants, are in deed the right Catholiques: VVriten by Robert Crowley: in the yeere, 1587. Crowley, Robert, 1518?-1588. 1588 (1588) STC 6084; ESTC S110998 131,595 191

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the worthynesse of mens works and the satisfying to God for sinnes committed against his maiestie And for your vnprofitable and hurtfull vsages it were enough to will the reader to remember your gadding on Pilgrimage your visiting kissing and worshipping of Reliques and your burning of Lights before blinde Stockes and Stones in the open day and sunne light And for your damnable abuses there néedeth no more but to wish the reader to consider of your abhominable Masse which you make a sacrifice for the sinnes both of the quick and of the deade which being doone I sée no reason why the readers may not cry out say vnto this Offerer and his fellowes yéelde and recant for shame The one and twenty Offer Offerer One and twentie If vnity in faith austerity of lyfe sharp discipline great penance much fastings large almes godly deuotion obedience to higher powers grauitie and true charitie bee not more euidently exercised and vsed in our cōmon knowne Catholike church then in the protestants congregation and contrarywise if discord in religion licentiousnes in liuing contempt of discipline reiecting of penaunce lothsomnesse of fasting lacke of zeale and deuotion disobedience to magistrates Sacrilege Apostacie breaking of vowes vnlawfull lusts wantonnes in all lyfe and maners doo not agree better and more cleare to the Protestants then to the Catholikes being the plaine signes and fruites of a false church Then will I recant and not before Crowley How well the vnitie of the true Christian faith is exercised in your commonly knowne Catholike church that is your Antichristian church the reader may sée in the which the protestant hath written in answering the 14. Offer As for your austeritie of life your sharpnes of discipline your greatnes of penance your largenes of almes godlines of deuotion may very well be packed vp in a pocket of Hypocrisie superstition and sent to your holy father the Popes holines the next new yéere for a new yéeres gift And as for your obedience to higher powers your grauitie true charitie may right well be séene in Pope Constantine the first who admitted the Emperor Iustinian to the kissing of his foote about the yéere of our Lord 710. And in Pope Gregorie the second who caused the subiects of Leo the Emperor to breake out in open rebellion against their liege Lord the Emperor bicause he had taken Images out of churches About the yéere of our Lord 730. In Pope Steuen the 2 who suffred him selfe to bée borne into the church called Laterane vpon mens shoulders whereby hée gaue occasion to his successors to be so carried after the maner of Heathen princes About the yéere of our Lord 755. In Leo the third who being accused before the Emperor Charles the great suffered the bishops that then were present to answere the Emperor when he required them to say their mindes concerning the crimes that were laide to his charge saying thus The Apostles seat which is the heade of other seates ought not to be iudged of any man especially being a lay man About the yéere of our Lord 800. In Pope Leo the 4. also who hauing obtained a victorie against the Sarasens did offer his owne féete to bee kissed of the people About the yéere 850. In Pope Ioane who being a woman in mans apparell was Pope for the space of two yéeres and died in trauell of chylde as shee was going in Procession towards Laterane church in Rome About the yéere of our Lord 855. In Pope Steuen the sixt who through the hatred that hee bare to Formosus his predisessor did condemne him and all his acts or ordinaunces Yea and hée reuenged himselfe vpon the deade body of Formosus which déed grew into a custome from thence foorth This was about the yéere of our Lord 898. In Pope Sergius the third also who bearing a pryuate grudge towards the same Formosus did not only abrogagate all the lawes that had bin made by him but he did also cause his deade body to be taken out of the graue wherein Pope Steuen the sixt had caused him to bee buried amongst the common people and his head and thrée of his fingers to be cut of and his headlesse body to be cast into the riuer Tiber. About the yéere of our Lord 910. An example of true charitie in these two Popes Another example of true loue in a Deacon the assisting Pope Victor the second at his Masse did put poyson into his Challice so dispatched him About the yeere of our Lord 1055. In Pope Gregorie the seuenth wée sée a notable example of obedyence to the higher powers For about the yéere of our Lord 1080. hée excommunicated the Emperor Henry the 4. and absolued all his subiects from their oth of obedience to him In Pope Victor the third there is to bée séene a notable example of true loue or charitie in that person that put poyson into his Challice so dispatced him about the yéere of our Lord 1090. Alexander the third did vse Lewes king of France and Henry king of England as his Horskéepers appoynting the one of them to go one foote by his Horsses head on the right side and the other on the left each of them holding the raigne of his Bridle About the yeere of our Lord 1160. A singuler example of obedience to the hygher powers Gregorie the 8. did decrée that bishops should bee preferred before Princes in degree about the yeere of our Lord 1190. And Pope Innocent the thirde is reported to haue sayd thus in his brauerie against Phillip whom the seculer Princes had chosen to be Emperor Let the Pope take the kingly Diademe from Phillip or els let Philip take the Apostolike insigne from the Pope Who would not take this man to bee a singuler example of obedience to the higher powers Yea in the decretals that this Innocent hath set forth it is decreed that the Pope ought to haue the correcting of the Princes of the earth and that hee is Emperor whom the Pope dooth crowne This was doone about the yeere of our Lord 1200. Pope Gregorie the ninth did promise euerlasting life to as many as would serue in the field against Frederike then Emperor About the yeere of our Lord 1230. And when this Emperor was reconciled to the Popes fauour againe hee did his penance which was to bring into the treasurie of the church that is the Popes Coffers 120000. ownces of golde And yet after all this the same Pope Gregorie did excommunicate the same Emperor againe and holding a counsell with his Cardinalles hee did depriue him of his Empire caused the Crosse to be preached against him Which was to incite and to stirre vp all men to make warre against him as against the greatest enimy of Christian religion Pope Innocent the fourth did by a firme decrée make it lawful for the Pope to depose the Emperor About the yeere of our Lord 1250. Pope Martine the fourth excommunicated th' Emperor and the king of
God to giue his Church libertie to make publique profession of fayth and religion as now for the space of 29. yéeres togeather he hath doone in this realme of England such as be members of the true Catholique Church doo and haue doone by the permission and commaundement of our Prince whom God hath appointed to gouerne vs as it becommeth Catholike Christians to doo in open praier preaching and administration of Sacramentes And to the ende that all thinges may bée doon orderly and as it beseemeth we haue bishops al other necessary ministers orderly elected admitted to minister vnto vs the word and to exercise publique prayer necessarie discipline suche as the higher powers vnder whome we liue doo thinke méete to be exercised As for the vniformity of your solemne Ceremonies that had not had so long continuance for the space of fiftéene hundreth yéeres nor yet for the space of fifty yéeres For by the confession of your holy father Pope Pius quintus the difference of ceremonies vsed euen in your holy Masse was such before the tyme of your last generall Councell which began at Trident. Anno. 1545. that it was thought méete by them to take order for the reformation thereof But though it had béene as auncient as you would haue it what great matter is there in it to prooue thereby that your Church is the true Church of Christ sith it is an easie matter for any sorte of men to agrée in outward and solemne Ceremonies although the same bee neuer so superstitious vaine and foolish But here is a matter of greater waight that is the vnity of fayth that your Church hath had these 1500 yéeres last past continually I haue already prooued that your Antichristian Church hath not had continuance so long by 600. yeres almost And it shal be an easie matter to prooue that the fayth of your Church hath in the time that it hath had continuance varied very often in some poyntes of greatest wayght as you doo account of them The generall councell of Basill beléeued that theyr authority was aboue the authority of the Pope and that they might depose hym and therefore they dyd depose Eugenius that then was Pope and choose an other in his place And the same Eugenius bolding a Councell at Farrary beléeued that he had authority to excommucate the generall councell And this article was long doubted of Whether the Pope or the generall counsell should haue the supreme authoritie And about the wordes of consecration I thinke your Church is not yet agréede whether the vertue ●hat turneth the substaunce doo lye in the verbe Est or in the sillable vm And whether the substance of breade and wyne bée turned into the substaunce of the body and bloode of Christ or whether that substaunce departing and giuing place the body and blood of Christ doo occupie the place thereof vnder the qualities of bread and wine And whether the mouse that eateth the consecrated rake doo eate the bodie of Christ or no. In these high poyntes of religion and in dyuers other of lyke sorte the vnitie of your fayth hath béene and styll is sore shaken But I perceyue that which followeth in thys conclusion of thys offer that the fayth whych you speake of is that fayth or beleefe that you haue in that Church of yours which you call Catholique You neuer trouble your selfe with the waighting and examining of matters of beléefe for you confesse that you must of necessitie beléeue the Church So that your determination is to beléeue whatsoeuer that Church hath or shall determine and commaund you to beléeue although you knowe not what that Church either hath or shall determine Thus your late prosilite Frier Iohn Frauncis of Nigeon in Fraunce dyd in his letters that he wrote to his mother instruct her to beléeue But here riseth a doubte whether this Church be the general councell the colledge of Cardinalles or the Popes holines alone If it bee the generall councell what shifte would you haue made when two generall councelles were holden at one tyme and decréede contrarie the one to the other the one holden at Basill and the other at Farrarie If it be the colledge of Cardinalles which way would you haue turned your selfe when there were thrée Popes at one tyme and each Pope had his colledge of Cardinalles If it bée the Pope him selfe then tell mée vpon whome you would haue hanged your fayth when there was no Pope for the space of two yéeres togeather and when there were three Popes at one tyme and when haueing but one Pope the same was an Arrian or Saddusey or had giuen hym selfe to the Deuill that hee myght bée made Pope I leaue this to your discretion or to the discretion of some one of your sorte that shall take in hand to replye to this aunswer that I make to these your offers You saye that your Church hath in her selfe all holie functions of the spirite as workinge of miracles remission of sinnes and the true sence and interpretation of Gods worde A straunge manner of ennumeration of partes All the holie functions of the spyrite are innumerable and therefore they are commonlie sayd to bée seuen by which number béeing a perfecte number an infinite multitude is commonly signified But you set downe thrée for all The working of miracles is one of those holye functions that you speake of You meane I am sure of those miracles that haue béene and are wrought in your places of Pilgrimage and by the rotten reliques of your Sayntes whereof I haue heard great boast and some experience I haue séene in England The holy mayd of Kent with her confederates wrought manie myracles in the dayes of King Henrie the eyght as in our Chronicles is to bée séene but in the ende she was founde to bée an arrante Whore and so was the holie made of Lemster that was nothing inferiour to the other in working of myracles The holy Roode of Bostone the holie Roode of Boxley the holie Roode of Chester the holie Roode of Northamton and the holie Roode at the North doore of Paules Church with the holy Roode in Roode Lane in London were not behinde the rest in working miracles by the helpe of knaues that had the kéeping of them I might speake of the holy blood at Hailes which was sayd to bee a portion of the bloode of Christ Saint Thomas of Canterburie S. Thomas of Hereford S. William of Mawuerne S. Ioseph of Shaftesburie and holy King Henrie of Windsore King Kenelme of Cowbadge S. Hugh of Lincolne and S. Robert of Naseborowe and a number of blessed Ladies to many to bée rehearsed by name The knauerie that was practized in these places is so well knowen in England that your miracles can haue no credite amongst such English men as haue not Roomish hartes Yea and our sauiour Christ hath forewarned vs Math 24. Math 24 That in these latter dayes many false Christs and false prophets shal arise shal
woman that had borne a sonne which is our sauiour Christ and the woman is his Catholique church This Church did the Dragon the diuell persecute by the ministrie of the Romaine Emperors by the space of 294. yéeres vnder Nero Domitian T●a●ant Seuerus Commodus Decius and Dioclesian All this while the Dragon did persecute the Catholique church séeke by all meanes possible to roote it out but Almighty God had in mercifull prouidence prouided for his Church two wings of a great Egle whereby shée tooke flight into the wildernes into the place that was prepared for hir where shée was norished all that time out of the sight of the serpent Yea the serpent did cast out of his mouth after the woman as it had bin a riuer of water that shee might haue bin violently borne away of the water But the earth did help the woman and opening hir mouth did swallow vp the Riuer that the Dragon had cast out of his mouth after hir If such as bée of the learned sorte amongst them that be of the Romish Catholique church would with humbled mindes reade this booke of Reuelations séeke for the true fence meaning but of this one vision vndoubtedly they should finde and I hope they would confesse that the true Catholike church of Christ that was figured by the woman had not the glory of the world as the Romish Catholique church hath now but was in this world obscure and after a sorte hid from the presence of such as the serpent had stirred vp to persecute hir which were the mighty Emperors and other that were of great powre within the Romaine Empire And yet was shée still clad with the sunne had the Moone vnder hir féete c. That is shée was still glorious in the sight of God and of all good men For hir garment was Christ the bright shining light of the world Vnder hir feete shée had the Moone still for shée contemned trode vnder foote the vaine pompe glory of this world which shineth gloriously in the sight of the blinde worldlings euen as the Moone dooth in the darknes of the night Yea and shée had hir head crowned with the twelue starres the Patriarches which were Fathers to the twelue kinreds of Israell or those twelue Messengers or Apostles which our sauiour Christ had sent foorth as starres to giue light in the darknes of this world Yea although shee dwelt still in Rome in other Cities that belonged to the Romaine Empire yet shee was as in a wildernes as hauing nothing and yet possessing all things c. 2. Cor. 6. 2 Cor ● So that if this Offerer would but consider this conceiue in his minde the countenance that the Catholique church could beare in this world during the time of persecution vnder the aboue named Emperors surely hee would neuer for shame say that our Church is not the Catholique church bicause we confesse that for the space of one thousand yeeres it was by the two horned beast that is by the papacie kept vnder as that Church which hee him selfe dooth confesse to bée the right Catholique church of Christ was by the seuen headed Dragon which was the Romaine Empire If the Catholique church might haue hir Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Doctors as vndoubtedly shee had in the time of the first bloody persecutions which continued for the space of 294. yeeres almost continually why might shee not haue so many of those ministers as were necessarie for hir edification during the time of the later persecution which hath continued how almost a thousand yeeres togithers Yea and why might not she haue the ministration of Sacraments and execution of discipline as well in the one time as in the other And so by good consequence Why may not the Protestants Church be the Catholique church of Christ as well as that Church was that differed as much in all points from the knowne Popish Catholique church as our Protestant Catholique church dooth differ now from the same I conclude therefore that it is altogither vnnecessary to prooue any way that any other gospell or doctrine then that which was preached by the Apostles or any other Sacramēts then the same that Christ Iesus did first institute or any other discipline then that which the Catholique church of Christ hath practized should hée preached ministred and practized vniuersally openly that thereby wée might prooue our Church to be Catholique For it is manifest by the hystories that the right Catholique church hath sildome had such fréedome vpon earth that shee might haue hir doctrine publikely vniuersally preached hir sacraments ministred and hir discipline practized Wherefore except you will shew your selfe wilfull and obstinate you must now recant although heretofore you would not The tenth offer Offerer Tenth For as much as the Protestants doo affirme their congregation faith and Religion to haue bin practized in the Primatiue Church of Christ some of them for the space of the first three hūdreth yeeres as Iohn Caluin some for the space of foure or fiue hundred yeeres as Martin Luther and his complices some for the whole space of the first sixe hundred yeeres as M. Ievvell and the authors of the Apollogie of the Church of England and therein not agreeing amongst themselues as the manner of Heretikes is I require some better staied and certaine tale of them where and when this sodaine change from the Protestants religion to the Papists should bee made as in what yeere of our Lord vnder what Pope and Emperor by what persons of name it was so wrought and brought to passe and vpon what occasion and what Apostles Prophets Euangelists Pastors and Doctors of their congregations did gainesay or withstand the same And who dooth make any mention of this sodaine merueilous change of the Protestants religion to Papistrie what one Ecclesiasticall writer or auncient Father of the whole world and when they shal be able resonably to answere and to satisfie these my demaunds then I will recant and yeelde to them and not before Crowley This Offerer minding vtterly to discredit the Protestants hath with his pen testified for them that they doo al agree in this one point which is that their Congregation Faith and Religion haue bin practized in the Primatiue church of Christ But here hée thinketh to discredit them all Some of them as Iohn Caluin doo affirme that this was for the space of the first thrée hundreth yéeres some other as Martin Luther and his complices for the space of foure or fiue hundreth yéeres and some others as M. Iewell and the authors of the Apologie of the Church of England for the whole space of the first fixe hundreth yéeres c. To this I say That such amongst vs as haue said that the congregation or Church whereof wée bée had continuance for the space of the whole first sixe hundreth yéeres haue sayd truely and they that haue said for the space of thrée foure or